How to live like a permanent vacation.

[kork]

Recently went on a vacation to Vegas with a bunch of friends. It was awesome. We took in some shows, did the Grand Canyon tour, hung out at the pool one day, went to a concert at a pool club.  It was overall an awesome time.

And we stayed at Planet Hollywood and had a nice room. King size bed, tv on the wall, super quite (which was a surprise) and a massive bathroom. We found that we were in the room to sleep and mellow out, but much of the time we went down to the CVS to grab some food or headed down to the Ocean One for $5.99 lunch or breakfast.

No dishes to clean, no beds to make. Just enjoyment and activity.

So we were in the pool and I was saying "This is the life... No dishes, no need to clean the pool, don't need to wash the towels." People watching (both the good, the bad and the ugly) and general busyness. Want an ice-cream cone? Just go down the elevator and there you are! Walking everywhere!  We did 28,000 steps one day.  5X a normal day for me. So that ice cream was burned off from the walking!

Then we came back to reality. Back to the big expensive home with the home theatre, fitness studio, 12 foot ceilings, stupid high gas bills for the heating, vehicle ownership...  Back to doing the dishes, cleaning the gutters and mowing the lawn.

So I start thinking...  Was the vacation awesome because of friends?  Because of the activities? Because of the simplicity of indulgence and lack of "adulting?" WHY NOT DO THIS ALL THE TIME?

Anyone here made the leap to do it all time?

[mistymoney]

there is a contingent of R/RE folks that sell it all and live mainly on cruise ships.....

[kork]

there is a contingent of R/RE folks that sell it all and live mainly on cruise ships.....

Yes, while we were having breakfast one morning we read about a women, a retired flight attendant who was the first to sign up for a 3 year cruise.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/10/first-person-three-year-cruise

That was partly what sparked this.  We have daughters, 16 and 13 so can't quite do it yet... But it's within the range of possibilities in the next decade or less.

[flyingaway]

You can have any lifestyle if you have money.

[Herbert Derp]

It takes a certain type of person to enjoy “permanent vacation”. Most people seem to get tired of vacationing after a few weeks.

[charis]

there is a contingent of R/RE folks that sell it all and live mainly on cruise ships.....

Yes, while we were having breakfast one morning we read about a women, a retired flight attendant who was the first to sign up for a 3 year cruise.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/10/first-person-three-year-cruise

That was partly what sparked this.  We have daughters, 16 and 13 so can't quite do it yet... But it's within the range of possibilities in the next decade or less.

But do you want to live on cruise ship?  There's a world of difference between experiencing the newness and break of a vacation and experiencing it every day, as your everyday life. 

A permanent vacation is not a vacation, by definition.

[Villanelle]

Reading your post, I was going to mention cruise ship life as well.  That's almost literally a permanent vacation.  Not for me, but I can see the appeal, especially based on the things you mention in your post.

[Metalcat]

Sounds like your life might be overloaded and over scheduled.

I live a pretty free retired life and cooking and a bit of housework just adds some nice structure to the day/week.

Cooking and cleaning only feels like a lot on top of a full time job and otherwise busy schedule.

For me getting up in the morning with no real obligations, it's nice to put on an audiobook and tidy a bit, wipe down the bathroom and kitchen, make the bed, whatever. It just eases me into activity for the day and then I'm down for figuring out what I want to do with my day.

Granted I'm not doing any of that right now thanks to surgery, but for the past few years that's been my routine and it's chill as fuck.

Otherwise yeah, everything is basically as you describe, if I feel like doing something, I do it. But I don't have a mega house and a lot of shit to maintain. I live in a highrise condo where the vast majority of maintenance is done for me. Or I live out in my summer place where there just isn't much maintenance to do.

Both homes are small, simple, easy to clean and maintain, and life is generally free and flexible. I'm even doing an intensive grad school program, but it's flexible so it doesn't cramp my free-flow lifestyle.

Like the daily cleaning, it just gives me something cool to do with my free time. I like reading and learning.

Otherwise, I socialize a lot, often last minute, I'm always checking out what's going on with local events. I'm literally always down for random adventures.

The concept of chores and tasks becomes radically different when you aren t overloaded and you have control over your time.

It's not usually the absence of responsibility that makes vacation so fun, it's the freedom and flexibility to do what you want with your days.

I mean, maybe for you it is. Maybe your heaven would be living at a resort and never washing another towel. But it sounds more to me like too much of your time is spoken for in your current lifestyle. And it may be worthwhile to look at systemic changes that could free up more autonomy each day in terms of what you do and when.

[curious_george]

It sounds like it would be pretty expensive to vacation all the time.

Eating out, hotel rooms, constant activities...I would probably get tired of it eventually and go find a good book to read and relax in a hammock somewhere.

I see your point - I just wonder how much it would coat to maintain this sort of lifestyle.

[kork]

Not really sure I’d want to live on a cruise ship… I’ve never been on a cruise. It’s more about the struggle between simplification and consumption.

For 15 years I counted Pennie’s and grew a net worth to $2+ million and growing.  Then I got to the point where I could fire only to realize I didn’t want to. I like my job and enjoy working. Then I started to spend money on experiences like concerts and vacations and low and beyond, they’re worth it!

And between all inclusive resort experiences and Vegas and other travel,  I’m trying to rationalize what the draw was and the potential permanence of it.   Perhaps it’s a balance.  Maybe not living on a cruise ship,  but living somewhere tropical in an expat village or something in a smaller, much more easily maintained condo. What I found alluring about the Vegas vacation was that it was a variety of different people travelling.

So the idea of condo living came up so there’s no yard maintenance, not cutting the grass, etc. Where I live, condos are generally occupied by seniors…. Not quite the socializing I want to engage in on a continual basis.  I’m too young to be old.

[sonofsven]

You know the phrase "It's a great place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there", that's a weekend in Vegas.

[Log]

Living in a walkable city is crucial. Walkability and good transit cut down on the need for a car, so you can get rid of the whole nuisance of vehicle maintenance and just use rideshare or rentals when the need arises. Try to choose a place where you already have friends so there's less of that painful/awkward period of isolation after the initial move.

Lots of nuisance maintenance tasks are the responsibility of the landlord if you rent. Window leaking? Electrical issues? Fridge not quite working right? Make the landlord deal with it. Mowing the lawn? Cleaning gutters? Raking leaves? Ha. Wish you had a fancier kitchen/bathroom? No costly and disruptive renovations for you, you get to just move to another place as soon as your lease ends—no more being stuck in one home by burdensome transaction costs.

Cooking and dishes can be eliminated entirely by eating out all the time, or can at least be mitigated by cooking simply and minimally, and buying ready-made foods. You can make a lot of meals with just one pot and/or pan.

Then hire a laundry service and a home cleaning service. Anything I'm forgetting?

ETA:

So the idea of condo living came up so there’s no yard maintenance, not cutting the grass, etc. Where I live, condos are generally occupied by seniors…. Not quite the socializing I want to engage in on a continual basis.  I’m too young to be old.

Who cares who else lives in the condos? You don't need to start hanging out with the old folks just because they live in the same building as you. As long as those condos are still in your existing community, reasonably near friends, and near the amenities you want to access, it sounds great. If you would prefer to live in a condo, why ignore that option? Just to fit in?

[RetireOrDieTrying]

I live in a nice Class A motor home and travel the US and Canada full-time. I don't have room nor weight capacity for a bunch of crap. I have very minimal costs and upkeep. I take a few hours during the day to earn my keep, but then I lock my keyboard, stand up, and I'm right back on permanent vacation.

[Metalcat]

Not really sure I’d want to live on a cruise ship… I’ve never been on a cruise. It’s more about the struggle between simplification and consumption.

For 15 years I counted Pennie’s and grew a net worth to $2+ million and growing.  Then I got to the point where I could fire only to realize I didn’t want to. I like my job and enjoy working. Then I started to spend money on experiences like concerts and vacations and low and beyond, they’re worth it!

And between all inclusive resort experiences and Vegas and other travel,  I’m trying to rationalize what the draw was and the potential permanence of it.   Perhaps it’s a balance.  Maybe not living on a cruise ship,  but living somewhere tropical in an expat village or something in a smaller, much more easily maintained condo. What I found alluring about the Vegas vacation was that it was a variety of different people travelling.

So the idea of condo living came up so there’s no yard maintenance, not cutting the grass, etc. Where I live, condos are generally occupied by seniors…. Not quite the socializing I want to engage in on a continual basis.  I’m too young to be old.

I shared that as just one example of how life can be much simpler. Where I live luxury highrise condos are everywhere in the middle of my nice, walkable, bikeable city.

I have no idea what your area is like, why you choose to live in that area, or even if your house size is actually a major source of your burden.

My point wasn't to suggest what kind of housing you should live in, my point was to illustrate that life doesn't have to be as complicated and burdensome as it seems to be for you.

My summer house isn't a condo, it's a detached home, and it still isn't much work to maintain because it's small and we're minimalists (who have two houses, yes, I know, I know).

Take a critical look at your life. Take a look at your "luxuries" and "comforts" and seriously assess if they are improving your quality of life or adding to the burden.

Also, FWIW, my condo building is filled with a combo of seniors and university students. DH and I are 40 and 50, we don't fit in with either cohort, but it's a lovely place to live and we really like our neighbours.

We have plenty of friends in the city, we don't need to socialize primarily with the folks in our building.

[Freedomin5]

Maybe not living on a cruise ship,  but living somewhere tropical in an expat village or something in a smaller, much more easily maintained condo. What I found alluring about the Vegas vacation was that it was a variety of different people travelling.

You just described our expat life. We live in an expat international community in a subtropical area (Shanghai). We live in a condo. Most expats have an ayi to cook and clean and grocery shop for them. They built the international neighborhood to be walkable. We have decent restaurants, schools, medical and dental clinics, grocery stores, gyms, etc. all within walking/biking distance. It’s basically a self-contained little city.

Expats come from all over. My neighbors are Chinese, Brazilian, Chilean, Singaporean, Taiwanese, American, Australian, Canadian, German, French, English, Polish, Italian, Swedish, etc.

And the best part is that through geographic arbitrage, the company pays for those perks (except the ayi). But housing, tuition, healthcare, taxes, are all paid for by the company.

You also don’t need to be high up on the corporate ladder to get a position. If you’re a native English speaker with at least two years of work experience, you can probably get a job teaching. And not teaching English. Teaching your subject matter, in English.

I wouldn’t say I’m on a permanent vacation though. I do still need to go to work every day. Maybe if you were a trailing spouse it would feel more like a vacation.

[force majeure]

If you are fit enough and interested, you could walk the camino de santiago in Spain.
I walked all of it last June, 800 KM.
There are people who walk it regularly, the different routes.
Can you manage $30 per day budget?
I met a young US couple doing it, pushing a buggy and carrying a 2 year old.
They got a puncture along the route, middle of nowhere... he stuffed a sock into the tyre and kept going.
They are Airbnb superhosts, long stays only.. I must look into it... they did an hour per day remote work along the way.
 

[Metalcat]

It sounds like it would be pretty expensive to vacation all the time.

Eating out, hotel rooms, constant activities...I would probably get tired of it eventually and go find a good book to read and relax in a hammock somewhere.

I see your point - I just wonder how much it would coat to maintain this sort of lifestyle.

Depends where in the world you are. It's very doable in some places.

It's also not prohibitively expensive to outsource all of these things. Hiring someone to cook and clean is much cheaper than always eating out or living in a hotel or cruise ship. Also, activities don't have to be expensive.

Point being, if people want to live an activity filled life where they outsource a lot of chores, it can be done in creative and reasonably affordable ways.

Life doesn't have to be this dichotomy of overbearing chores/scheduling vs insanely expensive leisure.

[GilesMM]

Howard Hughes lived in Las Vegas hotel rooms for decades. They tried to kick him out, so he bought the one he was in plus a few more. It is doable!

[mistymoney]

It sounds like it would be pretty expensive to vacation all the time.

Eating out, hotel rooms, constant activities...I would probably get tired of it eventually and go find a good book to read and relax in a hammock somewhere.

I see your point - I just wonder how much it would coat to maintain this sort of lifestyle.

Depends where in the world you are. It's very doable in some places.

It's also not prohibitively expensive to outsource all of these things. Hiring someone to cook and clean is much cheaper than always eating out or living in a hotel or cruise ship. Also, activities don't have to be expensive.

Point being, if people want to live an activity filled life where they outsource a lot of chores, it can be done in creative and reasonably affordable ways.

Life doesn't have to be this dichotomy of overbearing chores/scheduling vs insanely expensive leisure.

I do think the self-sufficiency, DIY, can be counterproductive if it ends up making people feel overwhelmed and underhappy.

paying 100-200 a week for regular help is likely less than a 1 day stay in a vegas hotel. So if not doing chores brings great happiness and a finer appreciation for life, get a weekly or everyotherweek cleaner, gardener, or maybe a robot vac and mop, and see how that may improve things for you.

From the FIRE perspective, if spending 5-10k a year on this lets you enjoy the challenges of a job paying 20k more a year rather than feeling crushed by it, then I think it works out.

Or if the out sourcing of chores brings continuous improvement in the day to day that it let's you comfortably work an extra year or two without chaffing at the bit, then that can work out too.

OTOH! Being without a home and only having 2 suitcases of "stuff" as you nomad about the world, has an appeal! No worries about regular bills, home maintenance or landlord issues.....with loads of cash in the bank, that is a whole nuther area of freedom feeling that I wouldn't mind sampling! Likely I never will, but I get it!

[Villanelle]

Not really sure I’d want to live on a cruise ship… I’ve never been on a cruise. It’s more about the struggle between simplification and consumption.

For 15 years I counted Pennie’s and grew a net worth to $2+ million and growing.  Then I got to the point where I could fire only to realize I didn’t want to. I like my job and enjoy working. Then I started to spend money on experiences like concerts and vacations and low and beyond, they’re worth it!

And between all inclusive resort experiences and Vegas and other travel,  I’m trying to rationalize what the draw was and the potential permanence of it.   Perhaps it’s a balance.  Maybe not living on a cruise ship,  but living somewhere tropical in an expat village or something in a smaller, much more easily maintained condo. What I found alluring about the Vegas vacation was that it was a variety of different people travelling.

So the idea of condo living came up so there’s no yard maintenance, not cutting the grass, etc. Where I live, condos are generally occupied by seniors…. Not quite the socializing I want to engage in on a continual basis.  I’m too young to be old.

Surprisingly, it seems cruise ship living isn't as expensive as you might think.  Not necessarily advocating for that for you, but between the perks I guess you get after being a frequent cruise, and choosing cheaper cruises like the repositioning cruise options, it seems like it can be a somewhat moderate expense.

I disagree a bit with MetalCat.  I'm essentially retired.  My spouse still works full time, and I work a few hours a week, from home.  I still loath cooking and cleaning.  All those tasks will always be a slog for me, no matter how much time I have.  I suppose they might feel slightly less burdensome than when they ate up my limited time, but I still really dislike them.  If I won the lottery--even just a 'modest' amount like $10m, I'd hire a weekly housekeeper, and perhaps a weekly cook and meal prep person.  Because I just really dislike doing those things. 

[Metalcat]

Not really sure I’d want to live on a cruise ship… I’ve never been on a cruise. It’s more about the struggle between simplification and consumption.

For 15 years I counted Pennie’s and grew a net worth to $2+ million and growing.  Then I got to the point where I could fire only to realize I didn’t want to. I like my job and enjoy working. Then I started to spend money on experiences like concerts and vacations and low and beyond, they’re worth it!

And between all inclusive resort experiences and Vegas and other travel,  I’m trying to rationalize what the draw was and the potential permanence of it.   Perhaps it’s a balance.  Maybe not living on a cruise ship,  but living somewhere tropical in an expat village or something in a smaller, much more easily maintained condo. What I found alluring about the Vegas vacation was that it was a variety of different people travelling.

So the idea of condo living came up so there’s no yard maintenance, not cutting the grass, etc. Where I live, condos are generally occupied by seniors…. Not quite the socializing I want to engage in on a continual basis.  I’m too young to be old.

Surprisingly, it seems cruise ship living isn't as expensive as you might think.  Not necessarily advocating for that for you, but between the perks I guess you get after being a frequent cruise, and choosing cheaper cruises like the repositioning cruise options, it seems like it can be a somewhat moderate expense.

I disagree a bit with MetalCat.  I'm essentially retired.  My spouse still works full time, and I work a few hours a week, from home.  I still loath cooking and cleaning.  All those tasks will always be a slog for me, no matter how much time I have.  I suppose they might feel slightly less burdensome than when they ate up my limited time, but I still really dislike them.  If I won the lottery--even just a 'modest' amount like $10m, I'd hire a weekly housekeeper, and perhaps a weekly cook and meal prep person.  Because I just really dislike doing those things.

Sure, YMMV, but my point is that in retirement, a lot of things stop feeling like work.

Maybe you hate cooking and cleaning specifically, but a lot of people like home projects, working on cars, landscaping, etc, during retirement.

It's very common for people in retirement to start enjoying having various little chores within their day as part of their routine.

Not sure why you would need 10M to outsource cooking and cleaning though. I've frequently outsourced it over the years because of my disability. I would say most of my upper middle class, dual working parent friends outsource this labour.

I used to have all of our meals except breakfast made by a food service and it cost less than a lot of people spend on groceries alone.

[Dicey]

Hmmm, we love Real Estate and enjoy DIY. I don't love cleaning the 4 toilets in our clown house, but until we downsize, I will happily pay someone else to do so.

At some point, when we can find a deal that makes sense, we will move to a smaller home. Maybe we'll take over one of our rentals and Snowbird.

In the meantime, we will travel whereherever we want. We have an RV, so we'll start with that. We may or may not fly to exotic locals on occasion. (Exotic, like CM*TO.)

Then we'll probably move to a condo where we don't have to worry about exterior maintenance.

Finally, we plan on moving to one of those expensive as fuck Senior places Palaces where you can live for the rest of your life in a unit that you own, and furnish as you like, never cooking or cleaning, no matter what level of medical care you require. There's one in the works in our region, but the fucking NIMBY's are being short-sighted idiots about it, blissfully unaware of the glass houses they're living in.

Along the way we will sell off our rentals one by one when taking care of them becomes too much of a PITA.

Oh, before anyone casts aspersions on places designed for seniors, I've owned in a Del Webb community since 2003, when I was 45. I couldn't live there yet, but I visited a lot. I've made some great friends there and they are surprisingly active. They are enjoying the crap out of their lives, because they're aware of their own mortality.

Or, we might decide to do something completely different. Being FIRE provides so very many choices.

[Villanelle]

Not really sure I’d want to live on a cruise ship… I’ve never been on a cruise. It’s more about the struggle between simplification and consumption.

For 15 years I counted Pennie’s and grew a net worth to $2+ million and growing.  Then I got to the point where I could fire only to realize I didn’t want to. I like my job and enjoy working. Then I started to spend money on experiences like concerts and vacations and low and beyond, they’re worth it!

And between all inclusive resort experiences and Vegas and other travel,  I’m trying to rationalize what the draw was and the potential permanence of it.   Perhaps it’s a balance.  Maybe not living on a cruise ship,  but living somewhere tropical in an expat village or something in a smaller, much more easily maintained condo. What I found alluring about the Vegas vacation was that it was a variety of different people travelling.

So the idea of condo living came up so there’s no yard maintenance, not cutting the grass, etc. Where I live, condos are generally occupied by seniors…. Not quite the socializing I want to engage in on a continual basis.  I’m too young to be old.

Surprisingly, it seems cruise ship living isn't as expensive as you might think.  Not necessarily advocating for that for you, but between the perks I guess you get after being a frequent cruise, and choosing cheaper cruises like the repositioning cruise options, it seems like it can be a somewhat moderate expense.

I disagree a bit with MetalCat.  I'm essentially retired.  My spouse still works full time, and I work a few hours a week, from home.  I still loath cooking and cleaning.  All those tasks will always be a slog for me, no matter how much time I have.  I suppose they might feel slightly less burdensome than when they ate up my limited time, but I still really dislike them.  If I won the lottery--even just a 'modest' amount like $10m, I'd hire a weekly housekeeper, and perhaps a weekly cook and meal prep person.  Because I just really dislike doing those things.

Sure, YMMV, but my point is that in retirement, a lot of things stop feeling like work.

Maybe you hate cooking and cleaning specifically, but a lot of people like home projects, working on cars, landscaping, etc, during retirement.

It's very common for people in retirement to start enjoying having various little chores within their day as part of their routine.

Not sure why you would need 10M to outsource cooking and cleaning though. I've frequently outsourced it over the years because of my disability. I would say most of my upper middle class, dual working parent friends outsource this labour.

I used to have all of our meals except breakfast made by a food service and it cost less than a lot of people spend on groceries alone.

Oh, I definitely wouldn't need $10m for that.  I think I'm the only one of my extended social circle that doesn't have a housekeeper (though I'm also the only one who doesn't work FT and/or  have little kids at home).  It just seems like such a luxury item for me that I  probably couldn't justify it to myself unless we had gobs and gobs of money.  Maybe not $10m, maybe only another 2-3m.  IDK what the point would be.   Having almost no job and no kiddos, and being perfectly capable of doing it makes it harder to justify to myself. 

I'm curious about the food service.  What did that look like?  Did the come once a week and meal prep so you just had to toss something in the oven at dinner time, or open a storage container for a prepped salad (or similar) for lunch?  I could absolutely get on board with something like that, even without extra millions.  I wouldn't even know how to find that, or what to call it.  I'd love to know what the practicalities of that arrangement, and how you found your person, or any other details you would care to share.  I think this wouldn't cost us much more, especially given that we do resort to take out or even delivery more than we should, and it would likely be much healthier.

[Dreamer40]

Sounds like you’re asking the question all of us in the FIRE world have to address, which is how do YOU actually want to live? You get to (have to) invent your own unique path. The catch is that there will always be boring tasks in regular life that prevent it from feeling like a vacation. Things like dentist appointments or replacing worn out household goods. You get to choose some routine tasks to outsource or eliminate if you want to, by hiring out or living in a place where cars or lawnmowing aren’t involved. But however luxurious your lifestyle becomes, it will start to feel like the new normal and you will eventually feel just as happy or unhappy as you usually are.

[Sibley]

Then we came back to reality. Back to the big expensive home with the home theatre, fitness studio, 12 foot ceilings, stupid high gas bills for the heating, vehicle ownership...  Back to doing the dishes, cleaning the gutters and mowing the lawn.

You chose to buy the big expensive home with the home theatre, fitness studio, 12 foot ceilings, stupid high gas bills, vehicles and yard work. If you don't like it, then change it.

[thefisherwoman]

Sounds like you’re asking the question all of us in the FIRE world have to address, which is how do YOU actually want to live? You get to (have to) invent your own unique path. The catch is that there will always be boring tasks in regular life that prevent it from feeling like a vacation. Things like dentist appointments or replacing worn out household goods. You get to choose some routine tasks to outsource or eliminate if you want to, by hiring out or living in a place where cars or lawnmowing aren’t involved. But however luxurious your lifestyle becomes, it will start to feel like the new normal and you will eventually feel just as happy or unhappy as you usually are.

I absolutely love your point about how "But however luxurious your lifestyle becomes, it will start to feel like the new normal and you will eventually feel just as happy or unhappy as you usually are." Do you mind if I start a new thread on this?

Baseline happiness is something I struggle with, and you've eloquently articulated it.

[elaine amj]

We just tried snowbirding this year and loved it. But the chores of daily life sure were a wakeup call when we got home! Pay bills, do taxes, sort out some administrative problem at the bank, etc etc. i was surprised just how many tasks are unavoidable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Metalcat]

Not really sure I’d want to live on a cruise ship… I’ve never been on a cruise. It’s more about the struggle between simplification and consumption.

For 15 years I counted Pennie’s and grew a net worth to $2+ million and growing.  Then I got to the point where I could fire only to realize I didn’t want to. I like my job and enjoy working. Then I started to spend money on experiences like concerts and vacations and low and beyond, they’re worth it!

And between all inclusive resort experiences and Vegas and other travel,  I’m trying to rationalize what the draw was and the potential permanence of it.   Perhaps it’s a balance.  Maybe not living on a cruise ship,  but living somewhere tropical in an expat village or something in a smaller, much more easily maintained condo. What I found alluring about the Vegas vacation was that it was a variety of different people travelling.

So the idea of condo living came up so there’s no yard maintenance, not cutting the grass, etc. Where I live, condos are generally occupied by seniors…. Not quite the socializing I want to engage in on a continual basis.  I’m too young to be old.

Surprisingly, it seems cruise ship living isn't as expensive as you might think.  Not necessarily advocating for that for you, but between the perks I guess you get after being a frequent cruise, and choosing cheaper cruises like the repositioning cruise options, it seems like it can be a somewhat moderate expense.

I disagree a bit with MetalCat.  I'm essentially retired.  My spouse still works full time, and I work a few hours a week, from home.  I still loath cooking and cleaning.  All those tasks will always be a slog for me, no matter how much time I have.  I suppose they might feel slightly less burdensome than when they ate up my limited time, but I still really dislike them.  If I won the lottery--even just a 'modest' amount like $10m, I'd hire a weekly housekeeper, and perhaps a weekly cook and meal prep person.  Because I just really dislike doing those things.

Sure, YMMV, but my point is that in retirement, a lot of things stop feeling like work.

Maybe you hate cooking and cleaning specifically, but a lot of people like home projects, working on cars, landscaping, etc, during retirement.

It's very common for people in retirement to start enjoying having various little chores within their day as part of their routine.

Not sure why you would need 10M to outsource cooking and cleaning though. I've frequently outsourced it over the years because of my disability. I would say most of my upper middle class, dual working parent friends outsource this labour.

I used to have all of our meals except breakfast made by a food service and it cost less than a lot of people spend on groceries alone.

Oh, I definitely wouldn't need $10m for that.  I think I'm the only one of my extended social circle that doesn't have a housekeeper (though I'm also the only one who doesn't work FT and/or  have little kids at home).  It just seems like such a luxury item for me that I  probably couldn't justify it to myself unless we had gobs and gobs of money.  Maybe not $10m, maybe only another 2-3m.  IDK what the point would be.   Having almost no job and no kiddos, and being perfectly capable of doing it makes it harder to justify to myself. 

I'm curious about the food service.  What did that look like?  Did the come once a week and meal prep so you just had to toss something in the oven at dinner time, or open a storage container for a prepped salad (or similar) for lunch?  I could absolutely get on board with something like that, even without extra millions.  I wouldn't even know how to find that, or what to call it.  I'd love to know what the practicalities of that arrangement, and how you found your person, or any other details you would care to share.  I think this wouldn't cost us much more, especially given that we do resort to take out or even delivery more than we should, and it would likely be much healthier.

Nope. They cook it, pre-portion it, and we pick it up once a week. Before the price of food exploded, it used to cost $5/serving. It was so cheap because we only got vegetarian legume-based meals. They would also cook recipes that I gave them because they didn't have a lot of vegetarian clients, so appreciated my curated list of 150 bulk-cook friendly recipes.

I love cooking, but not when I'm working a lot.

[Metalcat]

We just tried snowbirding this year and loved it. But the chores of daily life sure were a wakeup call when we got home! Pay bills, do taxes, sort out some administrative problem at the bank, etc etc. i was surprised just how many tasks are unavoidable.


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You don't take care of these things while away?

I reverse Snowbird, I go to the colder of two places in both winter and summer. But I manage both properties as needed all year round so nothing builds up.

[poxpower]

I did car camping for months last year.
https://www.thepoxbox.com/travel

Only car related bills and your phone
Zero chores other then laundry and daily grooming.

You can go sit all day at McDonald's, sip a coffee and work on your laptop in a nice, clean, climate controlled area with access to free wi-fi, bathrooms, water and power outlets.

The activities you do are up to your imagination, budget and location.

I tracked all my spending and by far the largest thing was gas  because the entire point was driving coast to coast.
Costs were in the 2000/mo range ( CAD ). Take out restaurants and gas, like 1400-1500 range.
I think you could get away living this way for <20k/year ( cad ).

[snic]

So I start thinking...  Was the vacation awesome because of friends?  Because of the activities? Because of the simplicity of indulgence and lack of "adulting?" WHY NOT DO THIS ALL THE TIME?

You left out the key question: Was the vacation awesome because it was a vacation from all your usual obligations and activities? Or was it awesome because you would truly enjoy having absolutely nothing to do but laze in the pool all day long and go eat ice cream whenever you feel like it IF that were your normal every day life, day after day, forever until you die?

My wife and I discuss this question a lot. We also take awesome vacations, although they tend to be a bit more active than what you describe (lots of hikes, sight seeing, enjoying good food and wine, kayaking, etc). Could we do that 365 days/year? We always conclude that the answer is no, and that one reason why we enjoy our vacations so much is that they're a diversion from our normal routines. I think our ideal retirement would be one filled with hobbies and projects at home and close to home, punctuated periodically with vacations both short and long, near and far, much as we take vacations now. Or perhaps a little different, because we could sometimes spend a month or two or even three at a time in one place to really get to know it before coming back home.

[Chris Pascale]

Was the vacation awesome because of friends?  Because of the activities? Because of the simplicity of indulgence and lack of "adulting?"

It was all of it, plus the knowledge that it would soon be over.

The perm vacation with friends is not a vacation, but a lifestyle with those in your circle. In fact, I'd say it's not retirement at all, but just moving to a new place that is pretty awesome.

Without some friends, I'd really hate being anywhere like this, and without having my own projects, I'd also dislike it, but the good thing for me is that my projects include writing, which I could create a lovely schedule for between hot tubbing and getting my steps in. If I ever missed washing dishes, I trust there's some restaurants that would make use of my services.

[ChpBstrd]

I believe this is the instruction manual you are looking for:

https://www.millennial-revolution.com/start-here/

[Dreamer40]

Sounds like you’re asking the question all of us in the FIRE world have to address, which is how do YOU actually want to live? You get to (have to) invent your own unique path. The catch is that there will always be boring tasks in regular life that prevent it from feeling like a vacation. Things like dentist appointments or replacing worn out household goods. You get to choose some routine tasks to outsource or eliminate if you want to, by hiring out or living in a place where cars or lawnmowing aren’t involved. But however luxurious your lifestyle becomes, it will start to feel like the new normal and you will eventually feel just as happy or unhappy as you usually are.

I absolutely love your point about how "But however luxurious your lifestyle becomes, it will start to feel like the new normal and you will eventually feel just as happy or unhappy as you usually are." Do you mind if I start a new thread on this?

Baseline happiness is something I struggle with, and you've eloquently articulated it.

For sure! There’s a lot to unpack on this topic. It’s something I’ve struggled with as well.

[Metalcat]

Sounds like you’re asking the question all of us in the FIRE world have to address, which is how do YOU actually want to live? You get to (have to) invent your own unique path. The catch is that there will always be boring tasks in regular life that prevent it from feeling like a vacation. Things like dentist appointments or replacing worn out household goods. You get to choose some routine tasks to outsource or eliminate if you want to, by hiring out or living in a place where cars or lawnmowing aren’t involved. But however luxurious your lifestyle becomes, it will start to feel like the new normal and you will eventually feel just as happy or unhappy as you usually are.

I absolutely love your point about how "But however luxurious your lifestyle becomes, it will start to feel like the new normal and you will eventually feel just as happy or unhappy as you usually are." Do you mind if I start a new thread on this?

Baseline happiness is something I struggle with, and you've eloquently articulated it.

For sure! There’s a lot to unpack on this topic. It’s something I’ve struggled with as well.

MMM wrote a lot of good stuff about Hedonic Adaptation.

That said, indulgence in luxury produces pleasure, not happiness. These are very different things, related, but different.

You can't indulge your way to happiness. Luxury is like icing and happiness is like cake. The cake itself has to be good for the icing to serve any purpose.

OP got a lot of pleasure from their vacation, but if it made them feel happier, then that's likely from being relieved of barriers to happiness that exist in their regular life:being over burdened and over scheduled, not spending enough time having fun bonding with friends, not getting enough time outside.

You can't improve your happiness when there are too many barriers present, and you can't luxury your way out of them either.

It's also important to distinguish between spending on a luxury and investing in removing barriers. Retiring early is investing in removing barriers, outsourcing chores when you are seriously over burdened is removing barriers, spending on an exciting helicopter trip on a beautiful location is a luxury.

The first examples contribute to a better cake, the helicopter is pure icing.

People need to understand the key ingredients to a good cake aka a happy, healthy life. If you fuck up the cake, it doesn't matter how much icing you slather on it, it's a shit cake and too much icing just makes it more gross.

[dang1]

Be happy, minimize sadness. Ideally, mostly relaxed, but also be able to handle harriedness / life’s difficulties

Balances out: mental / physical condition; living environment; time spent, etc. Can’t be totally happy nor sad, all the time – that’s just life.

I suppose, it’s a mind-set: vacation: Try new experiences, things, places. Think things out: ideas, thoughts, empathize

Incorporate the new that leads to more happiness, discard sadness-inducing. A constant is change; slow or fast, there's always  change

Can be: every day is a staycation; if need be- awaycation

[LD_TAndK]

Then we came back to reality. Back to the big expensive home with the home theatre, fitness studio, 12 foot ceilings, stupid high gas bills for the heating, vehicle ownership...  Back to doing the dishes, cleaning the gutters and mowing the lawn.

You chose to buy the big expensive home with the home theatre, fitness studio, 12 foot ceilings, stupid high gas bills, vehicles and yard work. If you don't like it, then change it.

Seriously... seems like this is the key issue here. Have a low maintenance low cost home you don't feel you need to escape from. It doesn't need to be an all inclusive condo or something extreme.

I went from a massive single family house with a pool and big yard to a small townhome with a small yard and now I actually enjoy taking care of the place, because it doesn't take all my free time.

[Metalcat]

Then we came back to reality. Back to the big expensive home with the home theatre, fitness studio, 12 foot ceilings, stupid high gas bills for the heating, vehicle ownership...  Back to doing the dishes, cleaning the gutters and mowing the lawn.

You chose to buy the big expensive home with the home theatre, fitness studio, 12 foot ceilings, stupid high gas bills, vehicles and yard work. If you don't like it, then change it.

Seriously... seems like this is the key issue here. Have a low maintenance low cost home you don't feel you need to escape from. It doesn't need to be an all inclusive condo or something extreme.

I went from a massive single family house with a pool and big yard to a small townhome with a small yard and now I actually enjoy taking care of the place, because it doesn't take all my free time.

Yep, I'm the one who mentioned the condo, not as a recommendation of what OP should live in, but just because it happens to be what *I* live in, and I happen to be extremely low stress about my extremely low maintenance home. I was using it as an example of contrast.

We downsized here from our 3 bedroom townhouse and absolutely love it, but we're minimalist DINKs. We don't actually consider the move downsizing, we consider it outsourcing. We now have an enormous indoor pool, heated indoor parking, a gym, a laundry room, a bike storage room, and a MASSIVE lawn with gorgeous gardens. We just don't have to personally maintain any of it.

But I also have another house that's detached, but it's a very simple and very small house with very little land that needs minimal maintenance, and the maintenance it does need is either pleasant or easily outsourced. So as you said, having a low maintenance house doesn't have to be a condo with amenities.

A lot of "luxury" housing is just a really expensive prison.

DH and I were considering building an extension on our little detached home, not because we need more space, but because I need a soundproofed office for future work, and although it made sense to make it bigger because relative to the cost of just building it, more size is cheap, we kept coming back to being really mindful of not building our own prison.

Both homes perpetually feel like vacation homes: the condo because of its amenities and the little house because it was literally bought to be a vacation rental, but we fell in love with it and have never rented it out, lol.

Both homes also feel spectacularly luxurious, but that's because we focused on luxuries that add overall net quality of life, not burdens that take away from the joy of our day-to-day routine through being high maintenance, expensive prisons.

My mom built a big, luxurious frankenhouse on a big, luxurious acreage, and that house and property are the perfect example of a luxury prison. The maintenance is just never ending. It is undeniably beautiful and impressive, but I lived with her and my step dad briefly after I graduated for a month and it was astounding how much onerous physical labour it was.

That ridiculous albatross of a house has totally throttled their ability to really live for the last few decades. These were lighthearted, adventurous, hippy folk who weren't afraid to take on major life changes until they inherited a pile of money and built the ridiculous house and it's just owned them ever since.

Large, luxurious, high maintenance houses can be fine if you have the means to outsource their care, or if you're retired and choring in your house is how you *want* to spent your time, but I see so many people like my parents who stretch themselves to get the biggest, fanciest dwelling they can possibly get, not realizing that they're just guilding the bars of their own prison.

[Villanelle]

Sounds like you’re asking the question all of us in the FIRE world have to address, which is how do YOU actually want to live? You get to (have to) invent your own unique path. The catch is that there will always be boring tasks in regular life that prevent it from feeling like a vacation. Things like dentist appointments or replacing worn out household goods. You get to choose some routine tasks to outsource or eliminate if you want to, by hiring out or living in a place where cars or lawnmowing aren’t involved. But however luxurious your lifestyle becomes, it will start to feel like the new normal and you will eventually feel just as happy or unhappy as you usually are.

I absolutely love your point about how "But however luxurious your lifestyle becomes, it will start to feel like the new normal and you will eventually feel just as happy or unhappy as you usually are." Do you mind if I start a new thread on this?

Baseline happiness is something I struggle with, and you've eloquently articulated it.

For sure! There’s a lot to unpack on this topic. It’s something I’ve struggled with as well.

MMM wrote a lot of good stuff about Hedonic Adaptation.

That said, indulgence in luxury produces pleasure, not happiness. These are very different things, related, but different.

You can't indulge your way to happiness. Luxury is like icing and happiness is like cake. The cake itself has to be good for the icing to serve any purpose.

OP got a lot of pleasure from their vacation, but if it made them feel happier, then that's likely from being relieved of barriers to happiness that exist in their regular life:being over burdened and over scheduled, not spending enough time having fun bonding with friends, not getting enough time outside.

You can't improve your happiness when there are too many barriers present, and you can't luxury your way out of them either.

It's also important to distinguish between spending on a luxury and investing in removing barriers. Retiring early is investing in removing barriers, outsourcing chores when you are seriously over burdened is removing barriers, spending on an exciting helicopter trip on a beautiful location is a luxury.

The first examples contribute to a better cake, the helicopter is pure icing.

People need to understand the key ingredients to a good cake aka a happy, healthy life. If you fuck up the cake, it doesn't matter how much icing you slather on it, it's a shit cake and too much icing just makes it more gross.

Yes, it's interesting to me that the OP's description of their trip wasn't about the great parts of it.  It was about what it didn't have.  It focused on the lack of chores, rather than the majesty of seeing an incredible landscape, or even a highly gifted musical act or light show, or seeing the scale of the grand canyon for the first time and being awed by the power and diversity of nature.  (or whatever one might choose to do in Vegas).  If a vacation is great mostly because of what it takes you away from, that's a pretty clear sign that your life needs some significant editing.  For me, a vacation is incredible because of a long sunset stroll on the beach or scuba diving with turtles or of the surreal tranquility of the Scottish highland's landscape or the staggering history of the Roman Forum, or whatever.  It's not about what I'm temporarily escaping.  If you feel a pressing need to escape your life, focus on fixing your life, rather than on how you can escape it more often.

[Cassie]

Like metal cat I enjoy having chores to break up my day. I am retired and downsized to a small condo which I love. When I worked full time and had a house I hired someone to clean it monthly. Vacation is fun but after 2 weeks I am ready to return to my life. If I had a big house to maintain it would definitely feel like drudgery.

[elaine amj]

You don't take care of these things while away?

We did the unavoidable, urgent tasks while away but did miss a couple of bills we ended up being late on. We put off some lengthier admin tasks for home. We were rather busy vacationing while on vacation for almost 3 months lol.

I love not dealing with the admin of daily living when I travel. (We did have to shop for a new furnace when we got home one time to a freezing cold house). And not worrying about being super messy because in a week or two, I’m going to pack up and move anyway.


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[kork]

All very interesting responses.

I suspect that much of the draw was fun with friends. When you go on vacation with friends and have a great time, everyone is in the same mindset.  But alas, not many of my friends are at a place of FIRE yet. They're enjoying the week long vacation for everything it's worth knowing they need to go back to reality.

In our world, it's only the kids and school that are keeping us locked down.  And so I'm trying to plan for the next phase of freedom. For the next 4 years of highschool, I believe that we need to stay put or continue with someone of the same normalcy and stability the kids have grown accustomed to.

But plotting out the path afterwards... That's why vacation is so interesting. It's lets you take the best, and leave the rest. Is it sustainable though, I suppose it depends on a bunch of factors.

[MMMarbleheader]

I kind of lucked into a SFH on a small ranch on about an acre in VT. We thought we wanted the frugalwoods type homestead when we moved here. We quickly found out those are either really expansive or have shared driveways which is a no for me.

So we have this simple ranch on a flat acre. But because it is VT there is no social pressure so maybe a nice lawn on really keep your house up at all. Our neighbors house is painted plywood because “it keeps the taxes low”. But our house is T11 so it’s like classy plywood haha!

Anyways, we are planning our home renovations for maximum laziness. Anything that needs painting is getting replaced with Azec. We switched to mini split and wood heating so once we need to replace our roof that chimney is getting demolished and I will put up a straight class A pipe for the wood stove so I don’t have to maintain brick or have a slot where water can get in. Our yard is slowly being cut up for gardens that are mostly perennial. Etc.

[jrhampt]

I think I have as much of a vacation lifestyle as I can get while still working full time.

I moved to a very small cottage with a very very small yard (not much to maintain) by the shore in a beach town where many people vacation in the summers.
I can walk to almost everything I need - library, doctors, yoga, happy hours, dentist, bank, pickleball courts, town hall.
I enjoy the waterfront restaurants all year long often at reduced prices during the winter.
My running and biking routes are very scenic.
Because I work from home near the beach, I can take advantage of the most beautiful days to go for a run or take a nice lunch on the water when I feel like it.

It's not a total vacation, but I am not in a hurry to retire because I already have my life just about the way I want it.

[kork]

I think I have as much of a vacation lifestyle as I can get while still working full time.

I moved to a very small cottage with a very very small yard (not much to maintain) by the shore in a beach town where many people vacation in the summers.
I can walk to almost everything I need - library, doctors, yoga, happy hours, dentist, bank, pickleball courts, town hall.
I enjoy the waterfront restaurants all year long often at reduced prices during the winter.
My running and biking routes are very scenic.
Because I work from home near the beach, I can take advantage of the most beautiful days to go for a run or take a nice lunch on the water when I feel like it.

It's not a total vacation, but I am not in a hurry to retire because I already have my life just about the way I want it.

Very interesting... What you're describing is very nice and in my wheelhouse. I like the sounds of that.  Question, would this be different if you have/had children? I'd love to be able to walk to most places. I almost loathe having to get in my car to go places and having two vehicles is even worse!

[jrhampt]

I think I have as much of a vacation lifestyle as I can get while still working full time.

I moved to a very small cottage with a very very small yard (not much to maintain) by the shore in a beach town where many people vacation in the summers.
I can walk to almost everything I need - library, doctors, yoga, happy hours, dentist, bank, pickleball courts, town hall.
I enjoy the waterfront restaurants all year long often at reduced prices during the winter.
My running and biking routes are very scenic.
Because I work from home near the beach, I can take advantage of the most beautiful days to go for a run or take a nice lunch on the water when I feel like it.

It's not a total vacation, but I am not in a hurry to retire because I already have my life just about the way I want it.

Very interesting... What you're describing is very nice and in my wheelhouse. I like the sounds of that.  Question, would this be different if you have/had children? I'd love to be able to walk to most places. I almost loathe having to get in my car to go places and having two vehicles is even worse!

Well, if we had kids we'd need a bigger house (it's a 1 bed, 1 bath 600 sq ft cottage), but we're within walking distance of the schools, too, and it's a good school district.  It's a very small town.  Idk if any part of life would feel much like a vacation if I had kids, though.  But then again, lots of friends my age have kids who have already graduated and moved out.

[bryan995]

Choose to live (and work) somewhere where others go to vacation.

I find SoCal (San Diego) quite nice ! We have staycations all the time.
Friends and family visit often for their own vacations.