How to help my family with financial education?

[helloyou]

Hello

I've recently started to help my family finance...

My dad & Mum (Half sorted):
I've found out they have 200k in cash doing nothing.. just sitting in the bank.

They are very conservative in term of finance, my dad is 65 and has been working all his life. He did some stock & share purchase but lost a lot of money in the past and don't want to get close to it.

I initially decided to leave them going on, as I knew how conservative they were... but then they had a call from their bank saying they had so much cash and made them put 80k into some high fees financial instrument... By the time I found it, it was too late and they couldn't cancel without paying large cancellation fees.. I was very upset and told them I'll start investing for them so that they don't get conned by the banks.

So I've took 100k from the cash account and put them all into ETFs... I warned them about the risk and that it can go up and down. They are happy with the potential volatility so far.

I'm sort of happy so far because with the current market the value grew to 110k... So far so good I'm thinking... I'll look into transferring the rest when the 5 years minimum clause has been reached...


My sister (Un-educated financially)
Then yesterday, I found out my sister is buying a flat for herself. It's a 200k flat and she is eligible for a 0.85% interest rate mortgage for 15 years.

What a crazy rate I said! And I told her to borrow as much as possible and explained her the government is working hard to push inflation up, and their own target is to aim for 2% inflation/year. So really with such a low rate they are basically paying her to buy a flat....

However, she's not into this mood. She wants a short mortgage and only took 50% LTV (putting 100k deposit on 200k flat) and plan to pay it off as soon as she can.

Then she said "What's I'm going to do with additional cash anyway?"

I answered "Just put it into stock!"

And then my dad, who was part of the discussion freaked out, and said she shouldn't take risk with stock and if she's happy to do that then it's all that matters...

I left it there as it was her cash anyway. But it's still family.... and I'd like them to manage their finance properly...


My sister (Un-willing to learn)
Later, I sent her link explaining what is passive investing and why she should do that. I advised her to start small, and invest 100-300/month to learn... hoping that would help.

But then she completely discarded it saying she might do it in the future when she knows more but it's not something she'd consider now...



I'm flabbergasted...
They have so poor understanding about finance and how the economy is rigged against the average person... For friends it doesn't matter much because I won't have to take care of them if they end up with financial troubles.

But for family, I feel responsible. When my parents get older, I know when the care bills will arrive, we'll pay for it. So I want to make sure they'll do well themselves.


But somehow, I'm not listened to... What do you guys do? Do you try to help? Or you just let them stick to being savers and being killed by the central banks?

[Linea_Norway]

I have always learned to no5 invest with money you cannot afford to loose. Investing with borrowed money is an extra risk. Many people here have decided to take that risk, but I think you should expect everyone to be willing to do that. Especially not people who are risk averse. That your sister doesn't want to invest in a way she doesn't understand is actually a bit smart.

For your parents, they are perhaps taken advantage of by the bank in buying an expensive fund. So if you can advice them to invest in something not more risky, but cheaper, it would be good.

But you feel responsible for them. You are not! It is their money and they are responsible for how to save/invest it. You could make a suggestion, but if they don't want to follow it, don't push. They rule over their own money.

[helloyou]

Ok, we can assume it could be money she could lose although I doubt that could be the case with ETF over 15 years period... but ok. It could be.

But she doesn't want to get educated as well. It's not just not investing, it's just avoiding the subject completely.


And I agree it's their money, but one of my fear is having to pay for my parents care bills as they get older... So I want to make sure they are healthy financially

[bbqbonelesswing]

But then she completely discarded it saying she might do it in the future when she knows more but it's not something she'd consider now...

It doesn't sound like she is unwilling to learn. It sounds like she is unwilling to take your advice on something she doesn't know a lot about, on this one issue.

Why would anyone just go ahead and listen to you when a huge sum of money is at stake? To be honest, I would say your sister did a decent job by sticking to her guns and not getting into something she didn't understand. Maybe she feels more comfortable with less debt. That isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Instead of preaching the gospel, maybe you should try sending some articles and advice here and there without any pressure. They'll probably catch on eventually, but you can't expect them to jump in all at once and trust you with managing hundreds of thousands of dollars of their life savings.

[CodingHare]

Well, my parents started yelling at me that I calling them stupid about money when I suggested they move some of their cash holdings (over $200k, similar to your folks), so they don't get advice now.  Their finances are not my problem.  I've let them know that they shouldn't plan on living with me when they're older, so they can plan accordingly.

Luckily, they own their house and live frugally, so even though they don't trust the markets they should be fine.  My advice is, if people don't ask you for advice, don't give it.  They'll resent you.

[helloyou]

But then she completely discarded it saying she might do it in the future when she knows more but it's not something she'd consider now...

It doesn't sound like she is unwilling to learn. It sounds like she is unwilling to take your advice on something she doesn't know a lot about, on this one issue.

Why would anyone just go ahead and listen to you when a huge sum of money is at stake? To be honest, I would say your sister did a decent job by sticking to her guns and not getting into something she didn't understand. Maybe she feels more comfortable with less debt. That isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Instead of preaching the gospel, maybe you should try sending some articles and advice here and there without any pressure. They'll probably catch on eventually, but you can't expect them to jump in all at once and trust you with managing hundreds of thousands of dollars of their life savings.

I sent her this:
https://medium.com/makingofamillionaire/the-simple-path-to-wealth-1e0976a1f724

Which I thought would be a good introduction. But really I don't think she read anything. Just discarded. What would you advise to send?

[helloyou]

Well, my parents started yelling at me that I calling them stupid about money when I suggested they move some of their cash holdings (over $200k, similar to your folks), so they don't get advice now.  Their finances are not my problem.  I've let them know that they shouldn't plan on living with me when they're older, so they can plan accordingly.

Luckily, they own their house and live frugally, so even though they don't trust the markets they should be fine.  My advice is, if people don't ask you for advice, don't give it.  They'll resent you.

They can say that now. But when the time comes and they are in need, you know you won't let them die.

So somehow you can tell them this but when shit hits the fan, family is still family.

[CodingHare]

Oh I definitely won't let them die.  But there is a world of difference between leaving them out on the streets and inviting them into my home.  And lots of other options, including retirement communities.  My mom won't like downsizing, but I am not my parent's retirement package.

[helloyou]

Oh I definitely won't let them die.  But there is a world of difference between leaving them out on the streets and inviting them into my home.  And lots of other options, including retirement communities.  My mom won't like downsizing, but I am not my parent's retirement package.

I'm more thinking about the cost of care home and the cost of care in general. When they are still able it's all good. It's the next stage.

I know this because I managed to get discounted living style by staying in care home (I have my own flat in the building that is now empty). Many families sold houses and bankrupted to pay for care which is extremely expensive as it needs someone present to take care of them.

[Sibley]

Your sister is not interested in listening to you. You made the offer, it's up to her. If you continue, then you are at fault, and she has every right to ignore you. You will also damage your relationship with her. You don't have to agree. But you do need to respect her. Paying off a mortgage faster is a valid choice - it's just not your choice.

As for your parents, you're also probably in the wrong here. They're older, they have much lower risk tolerance than you. Sure, help them get invested, but at the same time you need to respect their risk tolerance. It'll be fine until the market drops and they freak out - at which point you will probably lose the ability to assist them in the future because they won't trust you.

You are very close to bullying them. Back off.

[helloyou]

Your sister is not interested in listening to you. You made the offer, it's up to her. If you continue, then you are at fault, and she has every right to ignore you. You will also damage your relationship with her. You don't have to agree. But you do need to respect her. Paying off a mortgage faster is a valid choice - it's just not your choice.

As for your parents, you're also probably in the wrong here. They're older, they have much lower risk tolerance than you. Sure, help them get invested, but at the same time you need to respect their risk tolerance. It'll be fine until the market drops and they freak out - at which point you will probably lose the ability to assist them in the future because they won't trust you.

You are very close to bullying them. Back off.

Ok, I can back off.

But what about financial education? She doesn't even want to learn about it.

What're your thoughts about this?

[chemistk]

So if your biggest motivator for helping your family is to avoid having to help them when they're older and unable to work, don't you think your primary goal should be making sure you're set up to live comfortably when YOU are ready to retire?

I think what you really need to do first is to establish some personal boundaries in your own mind. Make an agreement with yourself that there is an upper threshold to your familial support, and incorporate that contingency in your own financial planning.

I don't mean for that to come across as mean, and I know it does, but there's just only so much that you can do to help others when they're unwilling to accept the help. Risk aversion is a huge thing that we all deal with and some people (your family seems to be this way) just don't want to take the chance they could lose what they have. I'd be willing to bet that if the market were to drop and your parents lost some of the earnings (and not even the initial capital), they'd be pretty uneasy about keeping the rest of the cash in the market.

Some people end up feeling much more okay with helping family when they're actually faced with a situation that requires financial help; others are super not okay with it. If you want to help your family, it can't be coming from a protection of your own self-interest. To that end, you just have to let the cards fall as they may.

Now, you're absolutely entitled to offer advice and to keep the door open for more in-depth financial guidance in case any one of them changes their mind. Often the best incentive for someone to accept help is to see a track record of positive experience. If you share the results of your own portfolio (not even numbers if you want to keep it obfuscated), and show them the smart moves you've made, they may be more enticed to listen to what you have to say.

Barring that, put together a simple collection of core financial literature (videos, blog posts, etc.) and give it to them, letting them know that you'll gladly walk through the material with them.

[wenchsenior]

Your sister is not interested in listening to you. You made the offer, it's up to her. If you continue, then you are at fault, and she has every right to ignore you. You will also damage your relationship with her. You don't have to agree. But you do need to respect her. Paying off a mortgage faster is a valid choice - it's just not your choice.

As for your parents, you're also probably in the wrong here. They're older, they have much lower risk tolerance than you. Sure, help them get invested, but at the same time you need to respect their risk tolerance. It'll be fine until the market drops and they freak out - at which point you will probably lose the ability to assist them in the future because they won't trust you.

You are very close to bullying them. Back off.

Ok, I can back off.

But what about financial education? She doesn't even want to learn about it.

What're your thoughts about this?

You can't control what others do unless they specifically come to you asking, and often not even then.  You do you.  Offer advice if others ask, but it's their money.  Many people never want to learn about finance, and feel uncomfortable even thinking about money. And if you push them, they are going to get pissed off.

ETA: One of my sisters was almost 40 before she got truly interested in managing her money for any kind of investment/growth. I'd thrown out occasional comments for years (not pushy, just that I was managing my finances a certain way and it came up in conversation naturally at times). She knew I had a lot of knowledge and when she was ready, she asked me and took most of my advice. 

My other sister is 45, and is unlikely to EVER be following my path or advice when it comes to money. She's a different personality than mine, and has ADD, and it actively stresses her to think more about it then very basic paying the bills, saving a little in a savings account type stuff.  Constantly suggesting things would just upset her, so I don't bother.  If she ever decides she wants to do things differently, she can ask.

[Plina]

You can’t help anyone that does not want to be helped. I talk a lot of finance with my parents and have helped them with their retirement savings as well as other savings. When the bottom went out in march I kept my investments and sent most of my savings on to the stock market. I also called my father to warn him because in the end it is about their risk tolerance. My parents decided to sell some but keep about half in the market. During the summer they put the money back in the market.

My father also called my sister that I have helped with changing the expensive money market funds to a cheaper one for my niece and she asked what she should do. I explained about the statistics about gains in the market and said because the savings was long term I would not sell but it was up to her. She did not sell. I also helped her to open a bank account with at least some interest. This is a result of my refusal to meddle in her financials even through I have been tempted many times. My sister hates unwanted advice and is more likely to do the opposite.

I have learned that the best ting with my family is to drop some Nuggets about my choices. Sometimes, it sticks.

[helloyou]

Yeah actually you are right. Probably better is to just leave some nuggets of what I do and see if it sticks.

In my family, talking money is a bit taboo. I don't know how much any of my family have. I don't know what's my dad performance with stock. And I was very surprised to find out my little sister managed to save 100k!

What an enormous amount in cash lol. When I had £20k in cash I was already wondering how I can take advantage of this. Her and my parents just left their cash accumulate over years in their cash bank account... it sounds so crazy to me...

At least they'll come strong if we have a depression and central banks are forced to increase interest rate.

[Plina]

Yeah actually you are right. Probably better is to just leave some nuggets of what I do and see if it sticks.

In my family, talking money is a bit taboo. I don't know how much any of my family have. I don't know what's my dad performance with stock. And I was very surprised to find out my little sister managed to save 100k!

What an enormous amount in cash lol. When I had £20k in cash I was already wondering how I can take advantage of this. Her and my parents just left their cash accumulate over years in their cash bank account... it sounds so crazy to me...

At least they'll come strong if we have a depression and central banks are forced to increase interest rate.

I know my sister finances because I saw her accounts when I helped with the funds but otherwise I have tried to stay of my siblings finances unless asked.

I am the only one interested in finances in my family and I am good with administration of things so I have as far as I can remember helped my parents with their retirement savings and draggad them to internet banking. There is always some financial thing when I visit. The funny thing is that my father told me that someone had called him about financial services and when he replied that his daughter that is a lawyer handles those things the call was cut really short. Since the days of internetbanking I have had a pretty good view of my parents finances.

I had also pretty limited cash reserves until the middle of last year when it got a little bit bumpy with my work situation and I increased my cash reserves.

[RedmondStash]

There's an old saying: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

OP, from how you describe your own behavior, you sound controlling. You have a goal and an agenda to change your parents and your sister. You think it's for their benefit, but I would resent any family member who came on that strong. It's disrespectful.

I would suggest two things:

1) Make peace with your parents & sister making bad financial decisions. If you're worried about having to support them someday, then save extra yourself so you can rest easier. Don't put your anxieties on them.

2) Ask them if they're open to learning about finances, and do it in an open way that makes it okay for them to say no. Tell them you'd be happy to give them as much -- or as little -- information as they're comfortable with. Tell them to ask you questions anytime, and approach the questions nonjudgmentally. And if they want to learn, start out with questions about risk tolerance, so you can recommend asset allocations that fit those tolerances. That will help build trust.

Money is an emotional and touchy topic, and can damage relationships.

It's hard when people you care about make bad financial decisions, but the truth is, that's your burden to bear, and it's not fair to put it on them. I've dealt with this many times, and I find the most successful approach is to offer gently and back off immediately at any sign of reluctance.

If that's hard, remember that you can't predict the future any more than they can, and that you don't know everything. Investment is risk, and risk doesn't always pay off. They might actually be better off not investing. It's unlikely, but it's possible.

Good luck.

[helloyou]

Yes investing is a risk. But staying in cash is another risk. Both are risk. That's why having some financial education help mitigating risks...

I wish I got this education way earlier in life. I feel I'm too late in the party already, and if I started investing 20 years ago I'd be way way better off than now.

I'll let them be... and be open to help if they ask. It's kind of annoying to see that though..

[draco44]

That's good to hear you are backing off on this with your family. Be satisfied with the progress you are making in paddling your own financial canoe and quietly be an example of what's possible.

For your future reference, I liked this post from Ramit Sethi on how to give advice (side note: I know people on this forum have mixed feelings about Ramit since he focuses on raising your income more than saving aggressively, by MMM standards, but here I think his advice is spot-on):
https://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/blog/how-to-give-advice-that-people-actually-take/

In theme with how others have commented, note that a key principle Ramit emphasizes is "Find people who want to listen to your advice." This is actually harder than it may seem at because many times people will run around claiming they want advice when actually they just want validation for what they're doing now, or a chance to vent about how hard it would be to do anything else. Everyone needs to vent now and then, but it helps all parties if you don't assume that advice given will necessarily be taken to heart and followed. And if someone hasn't asked for advice at all before you give it? That is a dangerous path to travel, even with the best of intentions.

[slappy]

OP, is this really another thread where you are trying to get other people to do something financially? You've posted about your friends and your family at this point. As Sibley said, back off. I know you said you are going to, but please read Sibley's post again before you attempt to worry about anyone else's issues.

[RedmondStash]

I'll let them be... and be open to help if they ask. It's kind of annoying to see that though..

It really is. I've been there.

I treat it as an exercise in practicing my own acceptance of an imperfect world.

[helloyou]

No need to keep repeating I need to back off.

I haven't been insisting anyway. It was the first time I told my sister about it because she wanted to buy a flat. Then suggested starting investing with a link to learn more about finance.

It's hardly being a bully. I haven't done any more than that.


My main issue is they don't know about finance and don't want to learn. I absolutely agree on being conservative and wanting to stay in cash. I have a friend who I regularly discuss finance and he doesn't believe in stock and stay in cash & gold. I didn't push him to do anything. It's a conscious decision and potentially a smart choice.

But in my family case, it's not being conservative, it's just being ignorant and wanting to stay this way...

[Linea_Norway]

My mother is like that as well. She has about 100K euro in a savings account and doesn't want to hear about investing in stock. So after one careful question from me of what she did with the money, she made it very clear that investing was scary and she didn't want to hear about it. I understand her scepsis and never mentioned it again. It is not my money and not my business.
FIL has his (lots of) money invested in managed index funds. According to him investing is a profession and what they do is investing in all kinds of niche index funds, very complicated. I told him my opinion about world wide index fund investing being really simple, but he believes in his own story. Again, not my business, even if it might become DH's inheritance.

[BudgetSlasher]

Reading your post, I feel like half the information is missing.

Your parents have 200k in the bank: while most people here would find that less than ideal, is that all they have (clearly not stocks, at least outside of a deferred comp account), what other income streams do they have, what are their annual expense, what kind of debt do they have? The context matters.

Your is "un-educated" because of other circumstances or solely because she put a large chunk of money toward her home? Roam these forums for a bit a read all the debate on whether to pay off a mortgage early, it's far from settled and seems to depend on one's values and risk tolerance. Your sister just got an early start on paying off her mortgage and to be able to is likely living below her means.

Are your parents "half sorted" because you "helped them" or where they before?

How where these conversations brought started? Were you asked for input or did someone just mention it in normal conversation (for example "I'm buying a house) and you offered your position? I've found unsolicited financial advice, even with the best of intentions, is not well received. To be frank after being yelled at by your father and rebuffed by your sister revisiting the issue via an email could easily feel like you do not respect them or their decisions.

They're opinion of taking financial guidance from you might also be colored by their overall opinion of your lifestyle. Many people do not understand the save heavily and live simpler and look down on it as suffering today when they could be having a good time.

They may also be influenced by your personal life, things like not working and wanting to travel the world for the purpose of maybe finding a new place to live, when many people cannot imagine leaving their country (heck some have never left the town they were born in).  If their overall perception of your values is far from what they consider theirs there is simply less common ground to start from.

Regardless of how well meaning it was or how correct you assessment you have been rebuffed. They know your position, they know how to reach you, and they know you are willing to help ... that is all you can do. Consider if the situation was reversed and your parents and sisters were providing input on something personal in your life, say finding a mate from their prefered candidate pool, having kids, and where to raise them would you feel a little put off by it?

[helloyou]

I just watched a video from Jack Bogle (Father of Vanguard) and he said that the biggest risk is to not be invested long term.

So that's something also to think about when talking about risk tolerance... It's not risk tolerance in this case, it's ignorance.


I've never been looking into my family account. I've never been interested. It just came randomly when I found out they have 5 bank current accounts all charging monthly fee and discovering they were invested into some bogus funds with high fees sold by the banks.

I spent long time telling them the bankers are not their friend and are here to make money. I was quite upset and started to look into it since then.

I do not know how much cash is invested because my dad lost quite a bit of money in the past and does not talk about it. I think he's a bit ashamed... So I never ask.

And initially I've let their cash un-invested for years... until I saw bankers getting them invested into ANOTHER high fee fund. So I decided to take action.

One thing I know, is that they're debt free, so that's somehow a good thing...


I said half sorted because I helped them to get rid of a large amount of monthly fees by consolidating some bank accounts and closing a couple of high fee funds...


They are big savers as well. So the concept of save heavily they absolutely for it and did it their whole life. Except that when you have cash sitting in the bank account for 30 years it doesn't worth as much. And they pay monthly fee on top of that!


I still remember my mum telling me she invested load of money into a saving account. Like something big she did 30 years ago... When I checked it, it was worth less than $10k. I'm sure it was big 30 years ago, but now it's not worth much. If it was invested into a S&P it would worth 10x more! That's the sort of thing I saw when looking into what they have!
Of course there was load of disappointment!


And to answer back, yes my parents do have an opinion with my personal life which I hate. They absolutely want me to be with a nice girl and my dad even offered to find an gf for me from china... I was quite pissed off... Especially because I know they won't be of any help and don't understand anything about dating. I can't see how they can help me find anyone.


I hope my financial advice for them are different, because I know it'll have positive results!

[Laura33]

My main issue is they don't know about finance and don't want to learn. I absolutely agree on being conservative and wanting to stay in cash. I have a friend who I regularly discuss finance and he doesn't believe in stock and stay in cash & gold. I didn't push him to do anything. It's a conscious decision and potentially a smart choice.

But in my family case, it's not being conservative, it's just being ignorant and wanting to stay this way...

So I'm going to try to say the same thing in a different way:  what you are doing is disrespectful.  Your parents and your sister are fully-fledged adults.  That means they have the right to make their own decisions -- even when that decision is objectively stupid.  If they are ignorant and choose to stay that way, that is their inalienable right as independent human beings.  You have every right to love them, to be concerned for them, to want good things for them.  But you do not have the right to force them to do what you want them to.  And the more you push, the more resistant they will be -- because that's how independent adults naturally respond when they are being pressured.  If you approach the conversation believing you know better than them, you are basically treating them like a child:  someone who is dearly loved but misguided, and who it is your responsibility to correct and set on the right path.  And what do children do once they begin to realize they are independent creatures?  They rebel.  And the more you push, the harder they rebel, because they are programmed to insist on proving their independence. 

I understand from your posts that you are not actively berating them over this, which is good.  But your view of your role and their ignorance is going to infect your tone and all of your interactions, and that will only damage your relationships long-term.  So I suggest that you change your internal monologue:  instead of telling yourself that they are ignorant and you want to "help" them learn, try telling yourself that they are grown-ass adults, and if they want to be ignorant, that's their right. 

[Metalcat]

You seem really focused on convincing everyone here that your family are not wise when it comes to money, and they're so irresponsible because they don't even care to learn.

Okay, sure, I believe you.

What you need to realize though is that EVERYONE is failing at something that someone else finds important. Personal finance is the important thing that you judge other people for. For others, fitness and health will be the thing they judge people for. For another, professional success and income will be the thing that they judge others for. For yet another, a lack of spirituality is the thing that they judge people for.

There are SO MANY things that people firmly believe that others *should be doing*. This is yours.

Well, guess what, no matter what the "should", you're kind of a dick for assuming that you know best for other people, and that's why they have no interest in listening to you.

I'm in the business of advising people. People pay me large sums to tell them what to do because I *am* a subject matter expert. And guess what? I STILL have to respect their ability to make decisions for themselves. I have the expert knowledge, but only they can decide for themselves how and if to utilize it.

I respect it because I've tossed out a ton of expert advice that I didn't feel was right for me, so I don't take it personally when someone has no utility for my advice, even when I'm "the expert".

Now, just because you love the people involved doesn't magically give you more entitlement over their behaviour. It makes it harder for you to respect their boundaries, but it's actually *more* important, not less. Love makes boundaries more critical, it's totally dependent on respect.

What I recommend in this situation is humility. Let go of this notion that it's your place to tell anyone what to do, that you know better than anyone what their priorities should be.

You don't. You simply don't. It's not helpful to try and push people to have your same priorities, it's condescending.

Different people have different priorities at different times. If you want to be a support for your loved ones, take an interest in what *is* important to them. Maybe, just maybe, if they feel respected and supported by you in terms of THEIR priorities, they may some day come to you for advice.

And maybe, just maybe, you will learn valuable lessons from them as well. Because chances are they've got their shit together in some area that you don't.

[helloyou]

Thanks guys for sharing your point of view.

I'm surprised by the number of people telling it's condescending, disrespectful, bullying and so on...

So far I've managed my parents finance successfully and with their consent. They are happy for me to manage it and totally trust me. They are just afraid of contacting the bank because they don't speak the language. They won't do anything by themself and totally rely on me which I find annoying.

I wish they would do their research themself instead of relying on me (or the banker). I started to consolidate their bank account 1 year ago and it hasn't progressed since them because I live abroad and they don't feel confident liaising with banks and told me to come back to help them.

And I think my parents are totally grateful for that especially that since I started to manage they saved on fees as well as got gain in stock. But they won't do anything by themselves so it annoys me.

Maybe it's the part of information missing from my parent. In the sense that complacency more than anything lead to this.



Now, the other side was my sister, where she blocked. I suggested first to take a bigger mortgage and explained the benefit. Then suggested to buy stock when she asked what to do with money from a bigger mortgage and shared a link later on.

That's it. Nothing more.

Why is it condescending/bullying/disrespectful? It feels like I did something really bad which doesn't seem like it???

[Metalcat]

Thanks guys for sharing your point of view.

I'm surprised by the amount of people telling it's condescending, disrespectful, bullying and so on...

So far I've managed my parents finance successfully and with their consent. They are happy for me to manage it and totally trust me. They are just afraid of contacting the bank because they don't speak the language. They won't do anything by themself and totally rely on me which I find annoying.

I wish they would do their research themself instead of relying on me (or the banker). I started to consolidate their bank account 1 year ago and it hasn't progressed since them because they don't feel confident liaising with bank and told me to come back to help them (I live abroad so can't do).

And I think my parents are totally grateful for that especially that since I started to manage they saved on fees as well as got gain in stock. But they won't do anything by themselves so it annoys me.

Maybe it's the part of information missing from my parent. In the sense that complacency more than anything lead to this.



Now, the other side was my sister, where she blocked. I suggested first to take a bigger mortgage and explained the benefit. Then suggested to buy stock and shared a link later on.

That's it. Nothing more.

Why is it condescending/bullying/disrespectful? It feels like I did something really bad which doesn't seem like it???

This comes off very, very differently from your initial post.

Also, my post was not about what you've done, but the attitude that it's your place to tell people how to behave when they haven't asked you to.

[helloyou]

This comes off very, very differently from your initial post.

Also, my post was not about what you've done, but the attitude that it's your place to tell people how to behave when they haven't asked you to.

I've read again my initial post and yes it sounds quite different because I never mentioned complacency but only their fear and that my dad lost lot of money in stock.

But fear is what makes my parents rely on others to manage their finance which isn't good as well. That's how bankers are conning them. That's why I wanted them to be educated.


Also, for suggesting people to invest when they didn't ask to... I always wanted to kick myself not having invested way earlier. And I deeply wished my dad told me to start investing way earlier when he did as well... which he never did and kept secret (probably due to shame).

And I just do what I wished they would have done for me in finance, being absolutely ignorant for so long... So in that sense, I don't see how it's wrong especially because I haven't been in anyway insisting or pushing them to do it.

[Metalcat]

This comes off very, very differently from your initial post.

Also, my post was not about what you've done, but the attitude that it's your place to tell people how to behave when they haven't asked you to.

I've read again my initial post and yes it sounds quite different because I never mentioned complacency but only their fear and that my dad lost lot of money in stock.

But fear is what makes my parents rely on others to manage their finance which isn't good as well. That's how bankers are conning them. That's why I wanted them to be educated.


Also, for suggesting people to invest when they didn't ask to... I always wanted to kick myself not having invested way earlier. And I deeply wished my dad told me to start investing way earlier when he did as well... which he never did and kept secret (probably due to shame).

And I just do what I wished they would have done for me in finance, being absolutely ignorant for so long... So in that sense, I don't see how it's wrong especially because I haven't been in anyway insisting or pushing them to do it.

I have no doubt you mean well. None.

[Laura33]

And I just do what I wished they would have done for me in finance, being absolutely ignorant for so long... So in that sense, I don't see how it's wrong especially because I haven't been in anyway insisting or pushing them to do it.

First:  like @Malcat said, I am very, very confident that you mean well.  The error in your thinking is the assumption that what you wish for you is also what is best for everyone else.  It's great that you have learned so much!  And it's great that you want to help people take the same step you did!  But you need to go into it with the humility of understanding that you think it's great, but they may still have different priorities or interests, and to back off if they resist (as your sister did).

[dreadmoose]

And to answer back, yes my parents do have an opinion with my personal life which I hate. They absolutely want me to be with a nice girl and my dad even offered to find an gf for me from china... I was quite pissed off... Especially because I know they won't be of any help and don't understand anything about dating. I can't see how they can help me find anyone.

I hope my financial advice for them are different, because I know it'll have positive results!

I think it's worth noticing your reaction to them helping you. They are helping you achieve the happiness and maturity that they have found, and think it will have positive results! It kind of comes off that you are doing the same to your sister and parents?

Assuming what is good for you, and how you did it, is good for them so it's worth pushing through their objections?

[helloyou]

I don't know why you guys keep repeating to back it off because I never insisted. I understood fully her objection and didn't push any further.

For my parents pushing me to get someone, if they had any clue how help me it would have been great. But they just tell me to get someone (which is of no help) then ask me if he wants to help me find a girl from china which I know is just some joke he uses to push me to be with someone.. we're not in 1970 anymore. This world doesn't work that way.

So if they were of real help then yes it would be very appreciated. But thats not the case and just pain.


I sincerely believe it will be beneficiary for them long term. In a very rational way. Getting their account in order, cutting on bankers fees, having some capital invested and some financial education can't just be something "good for me".

Again, I keep repeating like a broken disc, but my parents are glad I'm sorting this out for them (they totally rely on me now instead of doing it themselves which is annoying) and I didn't push or insist with my sister

[vand]

Why don’t you encourage them to invest in real estate? Very often people who are put off by stock market are much more amenable to tangible investments. That is especially true in the UK, where it’s arguable that many more investors have more money in property than they do in stocks.

Stocks are far from the be all end all. There is actually good empirical evidence that says that more people build wealth in real estate than in stocks. Of course pointing this out shows how you yourself are deeply biased against real estate given you current arrangements.

[helloyou]

Why don’t you encourage them to invest in real estate? Very often people who are put off by stock market are much more amenable to tangible investments. That is especially true in the UK, where it’s arguable that many more investors have more money in property than they do in stocks.

Stocks are far from the be all end all. There is actually good empirical evidence that says that more people build wealth in real estate than in stocks. Of course pointing this out shows how you yourself are deeply biased against real estate given you current arrangements.

My parents would love investing in Real estate. I would love it as well.

There are just 2 main issues:
1. Who will manage it?
I certainly don't want to manage it, I don't have the time for it. My parents are too old to do that. And getting an agent doing it needs a certain level of trust and contact we don't have.

2. How to get a decent deal with the current overpriced market?
I'm currently based in UK (London) and my parents in Paris. In these 2 capitals, the property price are over-inflated. I remember yield are around 2-3% mortgaged (so lower with cash purchase), which is definitely not worth it when you can just buy a dividend stock (or even bonds) paying more and hassle free.

So, it's certainly possible if the stars align, but so far, we neither have access to good finance (mortgage won't lend due to parents too old) so would have to pay in cash, property price are too expensive with yield way too low and capital gain limited with the bull run of the last 10 years...


If you know any area with good yield in real estate and/or easy access to finance we'd certainly be interested.

[vand]

Why don’t you encourage them to invest in real estate? Very often people who are put off by stock market are much more amenable to tangible investments. That is especially true in the UK, where it’s arguable that many more investors have more money in property than they do in stocks.

Stocks are far from the be all end all. There is actually good empirical evidence that says that more people build wealth in real estate than in stocks. Of course pointing this out shows how you yourself are deeply biased against real estate given you current arrangements.

My parents would love investing in Real estate. I would love it as well.

There are just 2 main issues:
1. Who will manage it?
I certainly don't want to manage it, I don't have the time for it. My parents are too old to do that. And getting an agent doing it needs a certain level of trust and contact we don't have.

2. How to get a decent deal with the current overpriced market?
I'm currently based in UK (London) and my parents in Paris. In these 2 capitals, the property price are over-inflated. I remember yield are around 2-3% mortgaged (so lower with cash purchase), which is definitely not worth it when you can just buy a dividend stock (or even bonds) paying more and hassle free.

So, it's certainly possible if the stars align, but so far, we neither have access to good finance (mortgage won't lend due to parents too old) so would have to pay in cash, property price are too expensive with yield way too low and capital gain limited with the bull run of the last 10 years...


If you know any area with good yield in real estate and/or easy access to finance we'd certainly be interested.

You see, you say you'd "love" to do it but then immediately wheel out the reasons excuses why you don't do it.  What's it to be?

If investing was as easy as buying the condo next door and outsourcing everything then you know what? there would be no such thing as poverty in the world. But life doesn't work like that.  If you are serious about investing in property then you need to do your own research. Look at where yields are reasonable, then work out a plan and budget for how you are going to buy and manage a property there. Distance is a hinderance but it is one that need not be insurmountable. It can be done - I guarantee it. I know people who do it, and they are far from geniuses, they have just put the time and work in to get it done.

No it's not as easy as opening an online brokerage and clicking on a few buttons to execute a buy. But that's also the beauty of it, and why, ironically, many people like it more, because the aggro involved also gives them a good working knowledge about the asset they're investing in.. and one of the laws of investing is only invest in your own circle of competence.

[helloyou]

You see, you say you'd "love" to do it but then immediately wheel out the reasons excuses why you don't do it.  What's it to be?

If investing was as easy as buying the condo next door and outsourcing everything then you know what? there would be no such thing as poverty in the world. But life doesn't work like that.  If you are serious about investing in property then you need to do your own research. Look at where yields are reasonable, then work out a plan and budget for how you are going to buy and manage a property there. Distance is a hinderance but it is one that need not be insurmountable. It can be done - I guarantee it. I know people who do it, and they are far from geniuses, they have just put the time and work in to get it done.

No it's not as easy as opening an online brokerage and clicking on a few buttons to execute a buy. But that's also the beauty of it, and why, ironically, many people like it more, because the aggro involved also gives them a good working knowledge about the asset they're investing in.. and one of the laws of investing is only invest in your own circle of competence.

Believe it or not, but I actually spent an enormous amount of time the last 5 years looking for a property to buy. I used to visit few properties/week and I only managed to flip ONE at a good profit.

London is a very competitive market, with many cash buyer with deep pocket. Competing against professional investors as well as corporate buyers who don't really care about yield and are more about capital preservation...

I even have as friend a group of property investors. One of which changed after time into just managing property instead of buying and another one decided to buy outside London... the main reason? It's so tough to get a deal in London.

And the only deal I managed to get was through an investment deal which allowed me to get an estate agent referring me and close the sale before anyone else could bid. That was the only way I could get it.


If I was living north or in area where typical yield would be better, I'd definitely have bought by now. But it's just not worth it in this market. I've spent waaaaay too many days looking for deals and the results got worse and worse as competition got tougher.

Every Jane and Joe are competing now. I feel I wasted lot of time and after 5 years of constantly searching I know it's time to stop digging.


Stock are WAY less competitive than London property market. That's why I moved to stock. As simple as that.

[vand]

You see, you say you'd "love" to do it but then immediately wheel out the reasons excuses why you don't do it.  What's it to be?

If investing was as easy as buying the condo next door and outsourcing everything then you know what? there would be no such thing as poverty in the world. But life doesn't work like that.  If you are serious about investing in property then you need to do your own research. Look at where yields are reasonable, then work out a plan and budget for how you are going to buy and manage a property there. Distance is a hinderance but it is one that need not be insurmountable. It can be done - I guarantee it. I know people who do it, and they are far from geniuses, they have just put the time and work in to get it done.

No it's not as easy as opening an online brokerage and clicking on a few buttons to execute a buy. But that's also the beauty of it, and why, ironically, many people like it more, because the aggro involved also gives them a good working knowledge about the asset they're investing in.. and one of the laws of investing is only invest in your own circle of competence.

Believe it or not, but I actually spent an enormous amount of time the last 5 years looking for a property to buy. I used to visit few properties/week and I only managed to flip ONE at a good profit.

London is a very competitive market, with many cash buyer with deep pocket. Competing against professional investors as well as corporate buyers who don't really care about yield and are more about capital preservation...

I even have as friend a group of property investors. One of which changed after time into just managing property instead of buying and another one decided to buy outside London... the main reason? It's so tough to get a deal in London.

And the only deal I managed to get was through an investment deal which allowed me to get an estate agent referring me and close the sale before anyone else could bid. That was the only way I could get it.


If I was living north or in area where typical yield would be better, I'd definitely have bought by now. But it's just not worth it in this market. I've spent waaaaay too many days looking for deals and the results got worse and worse as competition got tougher.

Every Jane and Joe are competing now. I feel I wasted lot of time and after 5 years of constantly searching I know it's time to stop digging.


Stock are WAY less competitive than London property market. That's why I moved to stock. As simple as that.

Try looking in Liverpool. Or Newcastle. Or Glasgow. Or Stockton on Tees. Or, y'know, just starting outside London would be a good first step.

There are LOADS of properties that you can get good return on. Sorry if that's not on your doorstep.. like I said, if it was easy then everyone would do it, and then those opportunities wouldn't be available. Sorry if "Alexa, put 20 percent into Property" doesn't get you very far.

Anyway, notice how you have shifted the goalposts? The original question you posed is how to get them to invest, ie to convince them to get their money working for them. You seem to have dragged it into "how do I get them to buy stocks". Dude, they probably don't want to buy stocks. If real estates can help them get their money working then that is probably the way forward, even if you think returns aren't going to be stellar.

[helloyou]

Try looking in Liverpool. Or Newcastle. Or Glasgow. Or Stockton on Tees. Or, y'know, just starting outside London would be a good first step.

There are LOADS of properties that you can get good return on. Sorry if that's not on your doorstep.. like I said, if it was easy then everyone would do it, and then those opportunities wouldn't be available. Sorry if "Alexa, put 20 percent into Property" doesn't get you very far.

Anyway, notice how you have shifted the goalposts? The original question you posed is how to get them to invest, ie to convince them to get their money working for them. You seem to have dragged it into "how do I get them to buy stocks". Dude, they probably don't want to buy stocks. If real estates can help them get their money working then that is probably the way forward, even if you think returns aren't going to be stellar.

The difference between invest in ETF and buying property is time that none of us have.

I pretty much know they won't have time to look for property. They've been harassing me for a while to get one actually. I just never managed to find the right one. As I said, they'd love to buy property. It's in their mindset...

I don't think it's hard to put 20-50% of your asset into a S&P ETF. Just dollar cost average..

There's no shift. It's about investing. Whether it's stock or property or anything else really don't think matter. However ETF is just a simple no brainer easy way to get wealthier...

[Metalcat]

You see, you say you'd "love" to do it but then immediately wheel out the reasons excuses why you don't do it.  What's it to be?

If investing was as easy as buying the condo next door and outsourcing everything then you know what? there would be no such thing as poverty in the world. But life doesn't work like that.  If you are serious about investing in property then you need to do your own research. Look at where yields are reasonable, then work out a plan and budget for how you are going to buy and manage a property there. Distance is a hinderance but it is one that need not be insurmountable. It can be done - I guarantee it. I know people who do it, and they are far from geniuses, they have just put the time and work in to get it done.

No it's not as easy as opening an online brokerage and clicking on a few buttons to execute a buy. But that's also the beauty of it, and why, ironically, many people like it more, because the aggro involved also gives them a good working knowledge about the asset they're investing in.. and one of the laws of investing is only invest in your own circle of competence.

Believe it or not, but I actually spent an enormous amount of time the last 5 years looking for a property to buy. I used to visit few properties/week and I only managed to flip ONE at a good profit.

London is a very competitive market, with many cash buyer with deep pocket. Competing against professional investors as well as corporate buyers who don't really care about yield and are more about capital preservation...

I even have as friend a group of property investors. One of which changed after time into just managing property instead of buying and another one decided to buy outside London... the main reason? It's so tough to get a deal in London.

And the only deal I managed to get was through an investment deal which allowed me to get an estate agent referring me and close the sale before anyone else could bid. That was the only way I could get it.


If I was living north or in area where typical yield would be better, I'd definitely have bought by now. But it's just not worth it in this market. I've spent waaaaay too many days looking for deals and the results got worse and worse as competition got tougher.

Every Jane and Joe are competing now. I feel I wasted lot of time and after 5 years of constantly searching I know it's time to stop digging.


Stock are WAY less competitive than London property market. That's why I moved to stock. As simple as that.

Try looking in Liverpool. Or Newcastle. Or Glasgow. Or Stockton on Tees. Or, y'know, just starting outside London would be a good first step.

There are LOADS of properties that you can get good return on. Sorry if that's not on your doorstep.. like I said, if it was easy then everyone would do it, and then those opportunities wouldn't be available. Sorry if "Alexa, put 20 percent into Property" doesn't get you very far.

Anyway, notice how you have shifted the goalposts? The original question you posed is how to get them to invest, ie to convince them to get their money working for them. You seem to have dragged it into "how do I get them to buy stocks". Dude, they probably don't want to buy stocks. If real estates can help them get their money working then that is probably the way forward, even if you think returns aren't going to be stellar.

Am I missing something?

Why are you pushing this person to push his parents into real estate???
I don't get it.

[vand]

You see, you say you'd "love" to do it but then immediately wheel out the reasons excuses why you don't do it.  What's it to be?

If investing was as easy as buying the condo next door and outsourcing everything then you know what? there would be no such thing as poverty in the world. But life doesn't work like that.  If you are serious about investing in property then you need to do your own research. Look at where yields are reasonable, then work out a plan and budget for how you are going to buy and manage a property there. Distance is a hinderance but it is one that need not be insurmountable. It can be done - I guarantee it. I know people who do it, and they are far from geniuses, they have just put the time and work in to get it done.

No it's not as easy as opening an online brokerage and clicking on a few buttons to execute a buy. But that's also the beauty of it, and why, ironically, many people like it more, because the aggro involved also gives them a good working knowledge about the asset they're investing in.. and one of the laws of investing is only invest in your own circle of competence.

Believe it or not, but I actually spent an enormous amount of time the last 5 years looking for a property to buy. I used to visit few properties/week and I only managed to flip ONE at a good profit.

London is a very competitive market, with many cash buyer with deep pocket. Competing against professional investors as well as corporate buyers who don't really care about yield and are more about capital preservation...

I even have as friend a group of property investors. One of which changed after time into just managing property instead of buying and another one decided to buy outside London... the main reason? It's so tough to get a deal in London.

And the only deal I managed to get was through an investment deal which allowed me to get an estate agent referring me and close the sale before anyone else could bid. That was the only way I could get it.


If I was living north or in area where typical yield would be better, I'd definitely have bought by now. But it's just not worth it in this market. I've spent waaaaay too many days looking for deals and the results got worse and worse as competition got tougher.

Every Jane and Joe are competing now. I feel I wasted lot of time and after 5 years of constantly searching I know it's time to stop digging.


Stock are WAY less competitive than London property market. That's why I moved to stock. As simple as that.

Try looking in Liverpool. Or Newcastle. Or Glasgow. Or Stockton on Tees. Or, y'know, just starting outside London would be a good first step.

There are LOADS of properties that you can get good return on. Sorry if that's not on your doorstep.. like I said, if it was easy then everyone would do it, and then those opportunities wouldn't be available. Sorry if "Alexa, put 20 percent into Property" doesn't get you very far.

Anyway, notice how you have shifted the goalposts? The original question you posed is how to get them to invest, ie to convince them to get their money working for them. You seem to have dragged it into "how do I get them to buy stocks". Dude, they probably don't want to buy stocks. If real estates can help them get their money working then that is probably the way forward, even if you think returns aren't going to be stellar.

Am I missing something?

Why are you pushing this person to push his parents into real estate???
I don't get it.

Who's pushing? I'm discussing options. Real estate is an option.
They can buy premium bonds for all I care.

[Metalcat]

You see, you say you'd "love" to do it but then immediately wheel out the reasons excuses why you don't do it.  What's it to be?

If investing was as easy as buying the condo next door and outsourcing everything then you know what? there would be no such thing as poverty in the world. But life doesn't work like that.  If you are serious about investing in property then you need to do your own research. Look at where yields are reasonable, then work out a plan and budget for how you are going to buy and manage a property there. Distance is a hinderance but it is one that need not be insurmountable. It can be done - I guarantee it. I know people who do it, and they are far from geniuses, they have just put the time and work in to get it done.

No it's not as easy as opening an online brokerage and clicking on a few buttons to execute a buy. But that's also the beauty of it, and why, ironically, many people like it more, because the aggro involved also gives them a good working knowledge about the asset they're investing in.. and one of the laws of investing is only invest in your own circle of competence.

Believe it or not, but I actually spent an enormous amount of time the last 5 years looking for a property to buy. I used to visit few properties/week and I only managed to flip ONE at a good profit.

London is a very competitive market, with many cash buyer with deep pocket. Competing against professional investors as well as corporate buyers who don't really care about yield and are more about capital preservation...

I even have as friend a group of property investors. One of which changed after time into just managing property instead of buying and another one decided to buy outside London... the main reason? It's so tough to get a deal in London.

And the only deal I managed to get was through an investment deal which allowed me to get an estate agent referring me and close the sale before anyone else could bid. That was the only way I could get it.


If I was living north or in area where typical yield would be better, I'd definitely have bought by now. But it's just not worth it in this market. I've spent waaaaay too many days looking for deals and the results got worse and worse as competition got tougher.

Every Jane and Joe are competing now. I feel I wasted lot of time and after 5 years of constantly searching I know it's time to stop digging.


Stock are WAY less competitive than London property market. That's why I moved to stock. As simple as that.

Try looking in Liverpool. Or Newcastle. Or Glasgow. Or Stockton on Tees. Or, y'know, just starting outside London would be a good first step.

There are LOADS of properties that you can get good return on. Sorry if that's not on your doorstep.. like I said, if it was easy then everyone would do it, and then those opportunities wouldn't be available. Sorry if "Alexa, put 20 percent into Property" doesn't get you very far.

Anyway, notice how you have shifted the goalposts? The original question you posed is how to get them to invest, ie to convince them to get their money working for them. You seem to have dragged it into "how do I get them to buy stocks". Dude, they probably don't want to buy stocks. If real estates can help them get their money working then that is probably the way forward, even if you think returns aren't going to be stellar.

Am I missing something?

Why are you pushing this person to push his parents into real estate???
I don't get it.

Who's pushing? I'm discussing options. Real estate is an option.
They can buy premium bonds for all I care.

IDK, the way I read it, it sounds like pushing. Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's the impression I got.