Post by: KarefulKactus15 on December 03, 2020, 07:18:25 AM
I and 2 of my friends have parents who are believing some out there fake news. (This is common right now where I live in the south)
It's been going on for a while but I've tried to ignore it. These are otherwise smart people.
Examples of current belief:
1.) Fox news is democrat controlled so it can't be trusted any more - the only "real" place to get information is this Chinese guy on youtube. - They were all about fox untill about 4 weeks ago ish.
2.) There was a secret military operation in Germany recently that recovered voting servers showing trump actually won by a huge amount.
3.) Because of 1 and 2 they also believe in the stolen election non sense and that military action needs to be taken against the states to forcefully keep Trump in.
So - How should this be handled? My siblings are concerned also. We've made attempts to keep them in the realm of fact checked media, or even push the concept of fact checking for themselves in the past but haven't been successful.
But if you believe the whole thing is a conspiracy then "facts" don't matter because it's just a cover up.
And it's not just my parents. It's everyones parents in my circle. Which makes me think there's a huge echo chamber going on where I live.
But back to the point. What can be done about this? At some point I want to mind my own business etc etc, but my parents are paranoid the world is ending and it's causing them alot of stress. Seems cruel to leave them like that.
Post by: Virtus3 on December 03, 2020, 07:32:43 AM
Mostly just repeating that if there was actual proof that Trump's lawyers would be bringing it up and not losing every court battle they're in. I'll link to an occasional article from a non-biased (they don't always believe it's non-biased though) source like NPR, AP, Reuters, or PBS.
They're just working through the stages of grief and will eventually come to acceptance in their own time.
Not much you're going to be able to do to change their mind. My wife made a good point the other day that you can't reason someone out of a belief that they didn't reason themselves into...
Post by: former player on December 03, 2020, 07:49:41 AM
The other thing I would say is: trying to stop negative behaviour is hard, it's much easier to bring in positive behaviour to replace it. I learnt this through dog training: if you dog jumps up at people trying to stop him from jumping up is almost impossible, but training him to sit when he meets people is easy and has the same effect of stopping him from jumping up. In Trump conspiracy terms that means that trying to get your parents not to believe the conspiracy would be hard but getting them to believe in a Biden presidency should be easier, and will get easier the longer the Biden presidency goes on.
If while you are with them you can ask to listen to new you trust that they might not have come across before. If it is news that covers different subjects than the usual that might attract their interest. Try BBC World Service on the radio or BBC Worldwide on television, for instance. If you can interest them in those they will have accurate information and a lot of new information about the wider world.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on December 03, 2020, 08:36:27 AM
But what about being paranoid and depression? My mom's in such a funk she doesn't know if she's coming or going cause this country is so screwed up. In addition to causing family friction, the real harm from my view is seeing people I love depressed , worried and angry over things that aren't even real.
I saw one poster said this is part of the stages of grief. Maybe that's what's happening and we're working through denial and anger?
As a side note. I don't have any social media and neither do they. .... That I know of.... And there isn't any texting of news articles from my side. It would be pointless anyway since they believe all media is being manipulated for the grand conspiracy.
Post by: the_fixer on December 03, 2020, 08:37:23 AM
He used to swear by Fox News but switched to some other out there channels. He is constantly bring up NEWS that was posted on Facebook and has gone down the rabbit hole of Trump conspiracies and covid hoax talk.
He has called my wife and told her that she better get right with the lord and that Trump is the only thing holding back the second coming and called us flaming liberals (and we are independents that vote all over depending on who we think will be best)
It is truly sad, his mental health is suffering and he is putting himself at risk being in his late 70’s with multiple underlying health issues.
All my wife can do at this point is change the subject, she tried pointing out that Facebook is not a news source and getting him to fact check stuff but it just made him mad so now she just changes the subject.
Good luck
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Adventine on December 03, 2020, 08:42:53 AM
Appealing to emotion may work better - such as shifting the conversation's focus to Christian values such as kindness, respect, and compassion.
That's a general strategy. The specific tactics will have to vary depending on the person you're talking to.
Post by: ender on December 03, 2020, 08:43:52 AM
Post by: cool7hand on December 03, 2020, 08:45:00 AM
Post by: Sibley on December 03, 2020, 08:52:56 AM
If the topics do come up, I just go with "that's not what I heard" and change the topic. If that doesn't work, I end up hanging up. Regarding the new vaccines being developed, it's going to be important that they get them (assuming they can), and my parents are already skeptical. A source on the mRNA vaccine type was linked somewhere on the forums and I sent that to everyone last night as interesting background info. I figure if I can get ahead of the crazy talk I've got a better chance of getting them to agree to get vaccinated.
Post by: bbqbonelesswing on December 03, 2020, 08:57:20 AM
I have a half-baked theory that many in our parents' generation have really been diving deep into the internet for the fist time over the past few years. With more widespread smart phone and social media usage, they are discovering all kinds of new sites and YouTube channels, and have a steady stream of crazy stuff coming at them all day long.
Our parents need to re-learn what many of us heard back in elementary school about trustworthy sources and citation. They also need to get used to all of this information coming at them like never before, from every angle, and filter it out. Basically, they are like a 12 year old discovering 4chan for the first time.
It might take a while to adjust. Just keep reinforcing good behavior and don't get sucked into wild debates. If possible, cut out the source of misinformation. For anyone in a similar situation I would recommend "The Brainwashing of my Dad" - https://www.amazon.com/Brainwashing-My-Dad-Matthew-Modine/dp/B01C6AFDM6
Post by: ixtap on December 03, 2020, 09:17:39 AM
-turn the TV off whenever we walk passed it. This has caused them to put music on when we are around, rather than "news." (They had already moved more to OANN a few years ago)
-Come up with topics of conversation before we visit (FIL starts a rant whenever there is a gap in the conversaiton)
-Play games that require a bit of concentration
I have been dealing with cult like issues in the family most of my adult life, heck even some of my childhood if you include learning not to take sides in silly family feuds. Confronting them isn't usually helpful, but that doesn't mean I have to listen to their crap.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on December 03, 2020, 09:59:13 AM
For a while, a few in my family were acting similarly but on the other end of the political spectrum- reposting memes about Bernie Sanders, Young Turks, etc. on Facebook. I had a lot of conversations with my dad about fact checking, propaganda, and the internet. I reiterated a lot of things he had actually told ME growing up- to not believe everything on the internet. He's gotten better but still posts ridiculous stuff from time to time.
I have a half-baked theory that many in our parents' generation have really been diving deep into the internet for the fist time over the past few years. With more widespread smart phone and social media usage, they are discovering all kinds of new sites and YouTube channels, and have a steady stream of crazy stuff coming at them all day long.
Our parents need to re-learn what many of us heard back in elementary school about trustworthy sources and citation. They also need to get used to all of this information coming at them like never before, from every angle, and filter it out. Basically, they are like a 12 year old discovering 4chan for the first time.
It might take a while to adjust. Just keep reinforcing good behavior and don't get sucked into wild debates. If possible, cut out the source of misinformation. For anyone in a similar situation I would recommend "The Brainwashing of my Dad" - https://www.amazon.com/Brainwashing-My-Dad-Matthew-Modine/dp/B01C6AFDM6
I agree with this. The Brainwashing of my Dad was good and so is "The social dilemma".
I think you are spot on. Its information overload. Our generation and the one below us has grown up with this. Advertisers have had to reinvent their tactics because the younger generation is so used to tuning out click bait and other things.
My parents generation did not grow up with internet, so I understand their skills to quickly sort clickbait and fake news is not as high as someone who grew up with that. I'm not sure why they believe such wild stuff though. Like how in your mind, do these wild stories make more sense? And the "Evidence" and "Facts" are just so far fetched.
I dread when my mom calls now. Shes become a different person in the last 4 years. We used to talk once a week. My sister wont even answer any more when my mom calls. (She politely asked for years not to talk politics but it wouldnt stick.) Im getting to a similar place. I dread when I see "mom" pop up on the phone. Like no matter how hard I try it quickly goes to politics and try as I might to steer it back, it goes right back to politics. And even worse -> She gets upset and feels like she failed as a mother that her 3 children dont believe what she believes. There is 0 pride that she raised 3 kids who are independent thinkers.
Edit: Just wanted to add, I wish I was an outlier, but literally everyone I know in my age bracket has this issue. (to be fair everyone in my circle is not a trump supporter but their parents are)
Post by: SunnyDays on December 03, 2020, 10:00:09 AM
Post by: EricEng on December 03, 2020, 10:04:45 AM
I've taken to challenging any snide conspiracy comments with quick fact checks. It annoys them, but they also don't repeat them as much and at least hesitate some before spouting fantasy.
Post by: NonprofitER on December 03, 2020, 10:58:39 AM
We're in the same boat with extended family.
For those saying "I've stayed off Facebook" - I also want to point out that I think there's been a conservative exodus of Facebook to "censor free" social media sites (like Parlor) since the election. A lot of the enthusiastic Trump supporters on my FB feed have disappeared due to Facebook/Twitter labeling false election news as "disputed", etc. Like everyone else, I'm worried this just exasperates the cycle of having siloed spaces (first news, and now social media sites).
No solution but this was a fascinating podcast mini-series I listened to on a road trip recently about how someone gradually becomes radicalized/polarized through online echo chambers: NY Times "Rabbit Hole". Towards the end they talk with a Boomer-aged Q-Anon follower. Her pain and distress is palpable. https://www.nytimes.com/column/rabbit-hole
Post by: J Boogie on December 03, 2020, 11:22:58 AM
To offer a recent story -
My wife, like me, knows Trump lies a lot but also thinks, like me, that there are people in powerful agencies who regard him as a threat and might consider using less than democratic tactics to try and get him out of office. Our intelligence agencies have, after all, done things that are far more evil than illegally or unethically thwarting Trump. She is more convinced of what I'll call the deep state and the lengths it will go to thwart Trump, and I am more convinced that Trump is something of a cult leader.
We were at loggerheads for a while, talking past each other. I shared that I feared for her ability to make sense of things, as she was so skeptical of mainstream media bias that she started to follow and seemed to gather info from Epoch Times style sources with far too much credulity.
What really helped was that I shared how I caught anti-Obama fever back in 2007 and subscribed to Alan Keyes newsletters with updates on their investigation to prove he wasn't born in Hawaii. I shared how I got hooked and wanted so bad to believe this (I think because I really wanted the first Black president to be a pro-life Republican like Alan Keyes) that I suspended my critical thinking when it came to the topic, and now I feel ashamed of how I entertained what I wanted to be true rather than trying my best to assess what really is true.
She is still every bit as skeptical of our political and media institutions, but I think she has emotionally detached from the Sidney Powell bullshit and doesn't need it to be true for her to be happy. I'd recommend Eric Weinstein, who does a good job of threading the needle from a sensemaking perspective.
Post by: Psychstache on December 03, 2020, 11:51:57 AM
Post by: 20957 on December 03, 2020, 11:52:47 AM
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on December 03, 2020, 12:22:00 PM
Hoax virus.
Yes - They believe the thing is a hoax. Dead babies and microchips are in the vaccines.
I wont go out with my mom any more cause she has a thing she does where she likes to see how far she can get into a business before someone ask her to wear a mask.
Her own SON, my brother, had Covid and while it didnt kill him, it certainly seems real to me. He got it from my cousin who is 20 and in otherwise good shape. No hospital time was needed but it looked to be 4-5 days of sickness that I wouldn't want.
The logic of how you can still think hoax when your own family has it? False positive tests (Plural?) coupled with common cold. -
Unbelievable.
Post by: ixtap on December 03, 2020, 12:27:50 PM
Its a mess. I just remembered one other sad thing.
Hoax virus.
Yes - They believe the thing is a hoax. Dead babies and microchips are in the vaccines.
I wont go out with my mom any more cause she has a thing she does where she likes to see how far she can get into a business before someone ask her to wear a mask.
Her own SON, my brother had Covid and while it didnt kill him, it certainly seems real to me. He got it from my cousin who is 20 and in otherwise good shape. No hospital time was needed but it looked to be 4-5 days of sickness that I wouldn't want.
The logic of how you can still think hoax when your own family has it? False positive tests (Plural?) coupled with common cold. -
Unbelievable.
My FIL is pretty close to the edge on these things, but for some reason, they are taking the virus more or less seriously. They took it very seriously at the start, and are still doing pretty well, except for hanging out with their grandchildren, who are in how ever many different classrooms and their son in law who is bragging on FB that he hasn't changed a thing because wearing a mask just encourages the idiots. Meanwhile, their other daughter, who has been more careful but works in an office, was sick for a few days, but refused to get tested.
Post by: asauer on December 03, 2020, 12:32:28 PM
Finally, I started asking my them to give me some 'good news' every time we spoke. They kind of got into it and on their own started bringing up/ sending me positive headlines that have nothing to do with politics and I do the same. I think that last bit really helped their mental state (and mine). They realized not everything was horrible.
Post by: friedmmj on December 03, 2020, 12:45:10 PM
Examples of current belief:
1.) Fox news is democrat controlled so it can't be trusted any more - the only "real" place to get information is this Chinese guy on youtube. - They were all about fox untill about 4 weeks ago ish.
2.) There was a secret military operation in Germany recently that recovered voting servers showing trump actually won by a huge amount.
3.) Because of 1 and 2 they also believe in the stolen election non sense and that military action needs to be taken against the states to forcefully keep Trump in.
Wait....which of the above isn't true???
Just kidding. The other virus in addition to Covid-19 is Trump. He has infected a huge swath of our population with mental illness. I hope someone is working on a vaccine for THAT!
Post by: Just Joe on December 03, 2020, 12:54:40 PM
Its a mess. I just remembered one other sad thing.
Hoax virus.
Yes - They believe the thing is a hoax. Dead babies and microchips are in the vaccines.
I wont go out with my mom any more cause she has a thing she does where she likes to see how far she can get into a business before someone ask her to wear a mask.
Her own SON, my brother, had Covid and while it didnt kill him, it certainly seems real to me. He got it from my cousin who is 20 and in otherwise good shape. No hospital time was needed but it looked to be 4-5 days of sickness that I wouldn't want.
The logic of how you can still think hoax when your own family has it? False positive tests (Plural?) coupled with common cold. -
Unbelievable.
Little to add to the discussion but we've witnessed the same.
We're worried about our conservative conspiracy believing family but we're also grateful to have valid excuses not to visit them for multiple days over the holidays.
I like theories about first time web explorers and positive discussion.
Post by: friedmmj on December 03, 2020, 01:08:25 PM
1) Attracted to logic and facts in order to formulate opinions. Trusts subject experts and scientific evidence for understanding.
or
2) Wants to be told by others what to believe. Attracted to strong and aggressive leaders in media, religious organizations which in the extreme could be cult leaders, televangelists, etc. In the context of fame news these are people like Sean Hannity, Lou Dobbs, etc. Tends to distrust sources of information that are not consistent with what these leaders are communicating.
Post by: EricEng on December 03, 2020, 01:08:29 PM
My FIL is pretty close to the edge on these things, but for some reason, they are taking the virus more or less seriously. They took it very seriously at the start, and are still doing pretty well, except for hanging out with their grandchildren, who are in how ever many different classrooms and their son in law who is bragging on FB that he hasn't changed a thing because wearing a mask just encourages the idiots. Meanwhile, their other daughter, who has been more careful but works in an office, was sick for a few days, but refused to get tested.Got to say that covid is one of the few spots my parents and their generation of family is taking seriously. They have had a lot of elderly friends get very sick or die from it so skepticism is mostly gone. Takes some pretty crushing reality to break through the fantasy, but it does happen.
Post by: SpaceCow on December 03, 2020, 01:44:17 PM
I can't begin to explain some of the transformations described in this thread, but I think that there are fundamentally two types of people in terms of their mental orientation and this goes beyond raw intelligence although there is a correlation to that as well.
1) Attracted to logic and facts in order to formulate opinions. Trusts subject experts and scientific evidence for understanding.
or
2) Wants to be told by others what to believe. Attracted to strong and aggressive leaders in media, religious organizations which in the extreme could be cult leaders, televangelists, etc. In the context of fame news these are people like Sean Hannity, Lou Dobbs, etc. Tends to distrust sources of information that are not consistent with what these leaders are communicating.
And transformations they indeed are. It's hard to believe that all of our parents were once a 1 and are now a 2, but for me it's almost equally hard to believe that my parents were always susceptible to this type of BS.
This thread reminds me of this recent article:https://theweek.com/articles/951759/parents-warned-internet-break-brains-broke-theirs-instead (https://theweek.com/articles/951759/parents-warned-internet-break-brains-broke-theirs-instead)
It makes sense that boomers might be far more susceptible to fake news on the internet. Their bullshit detectors are just out of calibration for the level of exposure that they get on the internet. The Fox news thing, on the other hand, I have no clue about.
Reading this thread is quite saddening though. Makes me happy that my parents can still have conversations (for the most part) without deviating into politics.
Post by: Just Joe on December 03, 2020, 01:52:59 PM
Little to add to the discussion but we've witnessed the same.
We're worried about our conservative conspiracy believing family but we're also grateful to have valid excuses not to visit them for multiple days over the holidays.
I like theories about first time web explorers and positive discussion.
Just reread what I wrote and it sounded harsh - we'd love to see all of them but also expect the conversation to devolve into Trumpian politics or revealing a distressing reliance on rumor when constructing their opinion on current events.
The family gatherings are usually large and were at Thanksgiving time - without us. DW and I don't think that is wise right now so we stayed home and plan to do so at Christmas too. We would be open ot seeing our elders if we could do so safely.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on December 03, 2020, 01:54:59 PM
I can't begin to explain some of the transformations described in this thread, but I think that there are fundamentally two types of people in terms of their mental orientation and this goes beyond raw intelligence although there is a correlation to that as well.
1) Attracted to logic and facts in order to formulate opinions. Trusts subject experts and scientific evidence for understanding.
or
2) Wants to be told by others what to believe. Attracted to strong and aggressive leaders in media, religious organizations which in the extreme could be cult leaders, televangelists, etc. In the context of fame news these are people like Sean Hannity, Lou Dobbs, etc. Tends to distrust sources of information that are not consistent with what these leaders are communicating.
Funny you mention this. I don't think its direct comparison but there is a test developed (Excuse my poor explanation) to measure someone's ability to second guess their own intuitive first answers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_reflection_test
Check out this 3 questions on the test in the wiki link above.
Fun fact (Or maybe fake news, who knows any more) - Atheist score the highest... (Source: https://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/68451/2/MPRA_paper_68451.pdf )
Heres a short takeout from the conclusion in the above paper:
"Daniel Gilbert [21] once observed: “Findings from a multitude of research literatures
converge on a single point: People are credulous creatures who find it very easy to believe and
very difficult to doubt. In fact, believing is so easy, and perhaps so inevitable, that it may be more
like involuntary comprehension than it is like rational assessment.” And Daniel Kahneman [3]
added in a follow up: “As the psychologist Daniel Gilbert observed, disbelieving is hard work and
System 2 is easily tired.” Our findings in this study makes experimental sense of this point of view. "
Post by: mm1970 on December 03, 2020, 04:53:08 PM
These beliefs defy logic, so they won't be beaten with logic.
Appealing to emotion may work better - such as shifting the conversation's focus to Christian values such as kindness, respect, and compassion.
That's a general strategy. The specific tactics will have to vary depending on the person you're talking to.
It's mind boggling how some people have gone off the deep end.
Post by: scottish on December 03, 2020, 05:10:16 PM
Up here, the conspiracy is the federal government is going to take away all your possessions and put you in a gulag when you go to get vaccinated. Oh, and there is no pandemic.
Post by: use2betrix on December 03, 2020, 07:03:02 PM
My dad on the other is super far left. I typically do the same for him.
On facebook, I have around 1200 friends, and probably 300-400 of them hidden from my newsfeed for the sole reason of political posts. I would say out of those they are split pretty much 50/50 between right and left.
I don’t always hold my tongue the best, so I’d rather avoid the topics altogether and the trade off is worth it.
I used to follow politics incredibly close. I loved reading CNN and Fox every day and comparing them. I completely cut back about 95%. Because of this, I also can’t really hold my own in political discussions like I used to, which is more incentive to avoid them lol.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on December 03, 2020, 08:04:18 PM
There's a lot of it going on. It's really bizarre.
Up here, the conspiracy is the federal government is going to take away all your possessions and put you in a gulag when you go to get vaccinated. Oh, and there is no pandemic.
That's a new one. Well, not the no pandemic part.
Post by: Fish Sweet on December 04, 2020, 01:18:19 AM
I'm only half kidding. You know how some people are racist as shit, but manage to keep it mostly to themselves for fear of public ridicule and embarrassment? That's the kind of attitude I try to cultivate - if they try to talk to me about politics and how trump is the heavenly messiah or what have you, I laugh and act like I'm joking around with them, then I change the subject to something lighthearted and fun. I WANT them to feel uncomfortable and awkward when they try to engage me with that bullshit, and happier and entertained when we're talking about other topics. I'm fortunate, in that my relatives haven't quite sunk off the deep end in conspiracy idiocy, and I have a strong enough personality to just bull rush over whatever they're trying to ramble on about. It's disrespectful as hell, but hey... I don't respect a single damn thing they say.
"Oh, relative X, you really say the wildest things sometimes."
"Yup, and the moon is made of green cheese."
"Oh mom, you raised me better than that. Of course I know it's not true."
"Gee, that would be crazy if it were true. Do you think that the nano microbots in the vaccine are actually already sprinkled everywhere. OOH, maybe the powdered sugar on my donut were actually nanobots, and they already got them in me. aughhh!!! It's the CIA, they're killing me!!! Haha, just kidding."
"You think Biden runs a pedo ring? Yeah, and maybe he's an mind controlled robot. OH, maybe he's an alien.." And so on and so forth.
Will it upset them? Hell yeah. But literally anything will upset them, including you nodding along and pretending to agree with everything they say, because they live in an alternate reality where the crazy liberals I MEAN hell-sent socialists are snorting dead babies and crack cocaine while gleefully rubbing their little fly hands and manipulating the puppet strings of Big Media and Big News and Big Internet so that the government drones will swoop down and steal every Real Americans' guns and assign them neopronouns, or whatever. They're gonna be upset and stressed and there's literally nothing you can do about it, just like virulent racists are upset and stressed they can't spew their hatred everywhere. So make it uncomfortable and awkward and embarrassing for them to spew conspiracy garbage, make it happier and easier and less full of conflict to talk about literally anything else... and magically, they'll also have a better experience navigating life because other people don't have to put up with that bullshit.
Post by: former player on December 04, 2020, 02:00:07 AM
Post by: MrThatsDifferent on December 04, 2020, 05:57:09 AM
Anyways, my advice to OP, just ignore it as much as possible. DT will fade at some point. Remember how fervent people were for W Bush and then when he stopped being President people treated him like the plague (actually I guess we can’t say that anymore since some people pretend the plague doesn’t exist). They’ll find someone else to glom onto who is conservative, but hopefully less batshit.
Post by: Segare on December 04, 2020, 06:03:33 AM
I have several family members and friends who are doing the same thing. I quit Facebook about a month before the election and it was a great decision; don't plan to go back, it's just toxic. Honestly I've gotten to the point where I don't engage at all unless they specifically bring something up to me and I just keep generic responses.
Mostly just repeating that if there was actual proof that Trump's lawyers would be bringing it up and not losing every court battle they're in. I'll link to an occasional article from a non-biased (they don't always believe it's non-biased though) source like NPR, AP, Reuters, or PBS.
They're just working through the stages of grief and will eventually come to acceptance in their own time.
Not much you're going to be able to do to change their mind. My wife made a good point the other day that you can't reason someone out of a belief that they didn't reason themselves into...
One may think they are right, but who really knows the truth. How can you be certain your older and maybe wiser parents are wrong and you are right? Keep an open mind.
Post by: bill1827 on December 04, 2020, 06:30:25 AM
Post by: Catica on December 04, 2020, 06:47:44 AM
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on December 04, 2020, 07:02:29 AM
How do you know they are wrong and you are right? Maybe you are both wrong.
It's not about wrong or right. In fact without seeing it first hand, can anyone be sure they are wrong or right? It's baseless claims with no credible source. If they formed beliefs based on proper information then that's fine. There are established ways of determining if information is credible. They aren't new. I actually enjoy being open to new ideas.
But seeing them completely lose all fact checking and critical thinking is.... Idk... Sad. I thought maybe some early dementia at first, but everything else is a ok and I doubt 1/8 the country has developed early dementia all at once...
Post by: GuitarStv on December 04, 2020, 07:27:46 AM
How do you know they are wrong and you are right? Maybe you are both wrong.
Which of these . . .
Examples of current belief:
1.) Fox news is democrat controlled so it can't be trusted any more - the only "real" place to get information is this Chinese guy on youtube. - They were all about fox untill about 4 weeks ago ish.
2.) There was a secret military operation in Germany recently that recovered voting servers showing trump actually won by a huge amount.
3.) Because of 1 and 2 they also believe in the stolen election non sense and that military action needs to be taken against the states to forcefully keep Trump in.
. . . do you believe are right?
Post by: Catica on December 04, 2020, 07:43:54 AM
Could you define "proper information" for me?How do you know they are wrong and you are right? Maybe you are both wrong.
It's not about wrong or right. In fact without seeing it first hand, can anyone be sure they are wrong or right? It's baseless claims with no credible source. If they formed beliefs based on proper information then that's fine. There are established ways of determining if information is credible. They aren't new. I actually enjoy being open to new ideas.
But seeing them completely lose all fact checking and critical thinking is.... Idk... Sad. I thought maybe some early dementia at first, but everything else is a ok and I doubt 1/8 the country has developed early dementia all at once...
Please give me examples of an established way of determining if the information is credible.
One could argue that a belief in some divinity is baseless, would you call all of these people noncredible therefore having dementia? That's about 90% of humanity (percentile can be desputed).
Post by: friedmmj on December 04, 2020, 08:13:27 AM
Could you define "proper information" for me?How do you know they are wrong and you are right? Maybe you are both wrong.
It's not about wrong or right. In fact without seeing it first hand, can anyone be sure they are wrong or right? It's baseless claims with no credible source. If they formed beliefs based on proper information then that's fine. There are established ways of determining if information is credible. They aren't new. I actually enjoy being open to new ideas.
But seeing them completely lose all fact checking and critical thinking is.... Idk... Sad. I thought maybe some early dementia at first, but everything else is a ok and I doubt 1/8 the country has developed early dementia all at once...
Please give me examples of an established way of determining if the information is credible.
One could argue that a belief in some divinity is baseless, would you call all of these people noncredible therefore having dementia? That's about 90% of humanity (percentile can be desputed).
How about we start with science? There are experts in various fields of study such as Dr Fauci with decades of experience in various subject matters and/or have been published in peer reviewed scientific journals.
Then we can move onto facts and evidence that would hold up in a court of law. That is another objective standard to apply.
Regarding religious belief, it's best not to challenge peoples' faith and worship beliefs unless those happen to infringe on the rights and safety of others.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on December 04, 2020, 08:15:31 AM
Could you define "proper information" for me?How do you know they are wrong and you are right? Maybe you are both wrong.
It's not about wrong or right. In fact without seeing it first hand, can anyone be sure they are wrong or right? It's baseless claims with no credible source. If they formed beliefs based on proper information then that's fine. There are established ways of determining if information is credible. They aren't new. I actually enjoy being open to new ideas.
But seeing them completely lose all fact checking and critical thinking is.... Idk... Sad. I thought maybe some early dementia at first, but everything else is a ok and I doubt 1/8 the country has developed early dementia all at once...
Please give me examples of an established way of determining if the information is credible.
One could argue that a belief in some divinity is baseless, would you call all of these people noncredible therefore having dementia? That's about 90% of humanity (percentile can be desputed).
You took some big logic leaps.
Divinity cannot be proven scientifically, that does not mean everyone believing has a disorder.
I would however argue, based on the paper I linked above, those most susceptible to faith based religion have lower system 2 reasoning ability?
Post by: Segare on December 04, 2020, 08:25:01 AM
This is interesting. Science is ever evolving and there are many people who have better credentials than Fauci who disagree with him.
How about we start with science? There are experts in various fields of study such as Dr Fauci with decades of experience in various subject matters and/or have been published in peer reviewed scientific journals.
Then we can move onto facts and evidence that would hold up in a court of law. That is another objective standard to apply.
Regarding religious belief, it's best not to challenge peoples' faith and worship beliefs unless those happen to infringe on the rights and safety of others.
I didn't think the original post was about that.
Post by: sonofsven on December 04, 2020, 08:27:00 AM
Could you define "proper information" for me?How do you know they are wrong and you are right? Maybe you are both wrong.
It's not about wrong or right. In fact without seeing it first hand, can anyone be sure they are wrong or right? It's baseless claims with no credible source. If they formed beliefs based on proper information then that's fine. There are established ways of determining if information is credible. They aren't new. I actually enjoy being open to new ideas.
But seeing them completely lose all fact checking and critical thinking is.... Idk... Sad. I thought maybe some early dementia at first, but everything else is a ok and I doubt 1/8 the country has developed early dementia all at once...
Please give me examples of an established way of determining if the information is credible.
One could argue that a belief in some divinity is baseless, would you call all of these people noncredible therefore having dementia? That's about 90% of humanity (percentile can be desputed).
What, and give up my monthly Soros check? Fat chance! I'm keeping the adrenochrome recipe nice and safe until Jade Helm part IV.
Post by: bbqbonelesswing on December 04, 2020, 08:31:10 AM
Could you define "proper information" for me?How do you know they are wrong and you are right? Maybe you are both wrong.
It's not about wrong or right. In fact without seeing it first hand, can anyone be sure they are wrong or right? It's baseless claims with no credible source. If they formed beliefs based on proper information then that's fine. There are established ways of determining if information is credible. They aren't new. I actually enjoy being open to new ideas.
But seeing them completely lose all fact checking and critical thinking is.... Idk... Sad. I thought maybe some early dementia at first, but everything else is a ok and I doubt 1/8 the country has developed early dementia all at once...
Please give me examples of an established way of determining if the information is credible.
One could argue that a belief in some divinity is baseless, would you call all of these people noncredible therefore having dementia? That's about 90% of humanity (percentile can be desputed).
Did you skip this day in school? Information can be determined credible based on sources and evidence. Please see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_source
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertiary_source
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact-checking
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on December 04, 2020, 08:36:25 AM
Could you define "proper information" for me?How do you know they are wrong and you are right? Maybe you are both wrong.
It's not about wrong or right. In fact without seeing it first hand, can anyone be sure they are wrong or right? It's baseless claims with no credible source. If they formed beliefs based on proper information then that's fine. There are established ways of determining if information is credible. They aren't new. I actually enjoy being open to new ideas.
But seeing them completely lose all fact checking and critical thinking is.... Idk... Sad. I thought maybe some early dementia at first, but everything else is a ok and I doubt 1/8 the country has developed early dementia all at once...
Please give me examples of an established way of determining if the information is credible.
One could argue that a belief in some divinity is baseless, would you call all of these people noncredible therefore having dementia? That's about 90% of humanity (percentile can be desputed).
Did you skip this day in school? Information can be determined credible based on sources and evidence. Please see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_source
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertiary_source
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact-checking
Should this be a 1x a year continuing ed class for being allowed internet access? lol
I think failure to fact check has always been a thing since the dawn of time. Just with the internet it spreads much faster. In "The social dilemma" their studies show that fake news spreads 6x as fast as truth.
Post by: bbqbonelesswing on December 04, 2020, 08:41:21 AM
Could you define "proper information" for me?How do you know they are wrong and you are right? Maybe you are both wrong.
It's not about wrong or right. In fact without seeing it first hand, can anyone be sure they are wrong or right? It's baseless claims with no credible source. If they formed beliefs based on proper information then that's fine. There are established ways of determining if information is credible. They aren't new. I actually enjoy being open to new ideas.
But seeing them completely lose all fact checking and critical thinking is.... Idk... Sad. I thought maybe some early dementia at first, but everything else is a ok and I doubt 1/8 the country has developed early dementia all at once...
Please give me examples of an established way of determining if the information is credible.
One could argue that a belief in some divinity is baseless, would you call all of these people noncredible therefore having dementia? That's about 90% of humanity (percentile can be desputed).
Did you skip this day in school? Information can be determined credible based on sources and evidence. Please see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_source
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertiary_source
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact-checking
Should this be a 1x a year continuing ed class for being allowed internet access? lol
I think failure to fact check has always been a thing since the dawn of time. Just with the internet it spreads much faster. In "The social dilemma" their studies show that fake news spreads 6x as fast as truth.
Yeah, I think we could all do with a refresher after 4 years of a president who made disputing reality itself into a flagship policy.
Post by: GuitarStv on December 04, 2020, 08:51:44 AM
Divinity cannot be proven scientifically, that does not mean everyone believing has a disorder.
Believing in things with no evidence (and sometimes in spite of evidence to the contrary) and/or deferring to an authoritarian figure is exactly what you're complaining about in your original post. This seems identical to the concept of religious faith to me.
Can you explain the difference?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on December 04, 2020, 09:28:03 AM
Divinity cannot be proven scientifically, that does not mean everyone believing has a disorder.
Believing in things with no evidence (and sometimes in spite of evidence to the contrary) and/or deferring to an authoritarian figure is exactly what you're complaining about in your original post. This seems identical to the concept of religious faith to me.
Can you explain the difference?
Believing in a god or gods is socially accepted. But since the existence of said god(s) cannot be proven, it is taken on faith.
Scientists look at data to determine the nature of the physical world, and as more data accumulates our interpretation of the data can change in small or large ways. This is why scientists tend to drive non-scientists crazy, because we are never ever 100% certain of something, some data may come along to disprove it. It is also why people who evaluate risk also go crazy trying to explain it because people don't judge risk properly unless they have been trained.
As well, social myths linger. People knew the world was round well before Columbus, that is why he tried to sail west to close the great circle to China. But there is a misconception that people at that time thought the world was flat. Sailors knew better.
Re religion, to me the simplest position is to be an agnostic, neither religious or atheist. I have no way of proving or disproving the existence of a deity, so it is an open question, I will find out when I am dead (or if the idea of a soul is also a myth, which is quite likely, I will be dead and it will all be irrelevant).
Post by: Catica on December 04, 2020, 09:28:25 AM
You still didn’t define “proper information” and didn’t give any examples. I’m not sure what link you are referring to. I’m taking an arbitrary stance, I’m trying to clarify your proclamation of facts as credible and how you derived at them. It’s rather preposterous to proclaim that your sources or your understanding of the world is factual and others is not. My reference to the devine is about where evidence is more nuanced, we don’t have all the answers and evidence. It’s the same in science where the facts of today become non-facts tomorrow. It could be that a lot of misunderstanding lies in a subjective understanding of morality and ethics. So any evidence that supports your subjective perspective will be selected to validate your point. The evidence is grounded in a perceived fact but it is not necessarily factual, meaning still debatable. I don’t care what your parents believe and what you believe, I’m curious why you are so authoritarian. You seem to pathologize your parents based on their inability to differentiate perceived facts and holding different perspectives than yours. Is it worth to jeopardize your relationships with your parents over something that in the end might be very trivial?Could you define "proper information" for me?How do you know they are wrong and you are right? Maybe you are both wrong.
It's not about wrong or right. In fact without seeing it first hand, can anyone be sure they are wrong or right? It's baseless claims with no credible source. If they formed beliefs based on proper information then that's fine. There are established ways of determining if information is credible. They aren't new. I actually enjoy being open to new ideas.
But seeing them completely lose all fact checking and critical thinking is.... Idk... Sad. I thought maybe some early dementia at first, but everything else is a ok and I doubt 1/8 the country has developed early dementia all at once...
Please give me examples of an established way of determining if the information is credible.
One could argue that a belief in some divinity is baseless, would you call all of these people noncredible therefore having dementia? That's about 90% of humanity (percentile can be desputed).
Post by: bmjohnson35 on December 04, 2020, 10:04:51 AM
We live in strange times indeed. I generally try to avoid political discussions with certain family and friends. Between social media, the internet in general and non-stop media impersonating the news, it's where we are these days. It's hard not to be cynical these days.
Lately, I have been simply trying to keep my daily interactions with others respectful and positive and try not to let the "noise" affect my well being.
Post by: SunnyDays on December 04, 2020, 10:10:52 AM
Post by: HMman on December 04, 2020, 10:24:14 AM
You still didn’t define “proper information” and didn’t give any examples. I’m not sure what link you are referring to. I’m taking an arbitrary stance, I’m trying to clarify your proclamation of facts as credible and how you derived at them. It’s rather preposterous to proclaim that your sources or your understanding of the world is factual and others is not. My reference to the devine is about where evidence is more nuanced, we don’t have all the answers and evidence. It’s the same in science where the facts of today become non-facts tomorrow. It could be that a lot of misunderstanding lies in a subjective understanding of morality and ethics. So any evidence that supports your subjective perspective will be selected to validate your point. The evidence is grounded in a perceived fact but it is not necessarily factual, meaning still debatable. I don’t care what your parents believe and what you believe, I’m curious why you are so authoritarian. You seem to pathologize your parents based on their inability to differentiate perceived facts and holding different perspectives than yours. Is it worth to jeopardize your relationships with your parents over something that in the end might be very trivial?Could you define "proper information" for me?How do you know they are wrong and you are right? Maybe you are both wrong.
It's not about wrong or right. In fact without seeing it first hand, can anyone be sure they are wrong or right? It's baseless claims with no credible source. If they formed beliefs based on proper information then that's fine. There are established ways of determining if information is credible. They aren't new. I actually enjoy being open to new ideas.
But seeing them completely lose all fact checking and critical thinking is.... Idk... Sad. I thought maybe some early dementia at first, but everything else is a ok and I doubt 1/8 the country has developed early dementia all at once...
Please give me examples of an established way of determining if the information is credible.
One could argue that a belief in some divinity is baseless, would you call all of these people noncredible therefore having dementia? That's about 90% of humanity (percentile can be desputed).
I'm not the OP, but I personally use two metrics to help evaluate the general "properness" of information - positive incentives and internal consistency. I'll use a hopefully non-controversial example from my past to demonstrate.
I was raised in a very conservative Christian family, and was taught that the account of Genesis was the literal truth of the creation of the world. The universe as a whole was only about 6000 years old, evolutionary theory was a hoax, and a different perspective on the available fossil and historical evidence showed that they could be explained as the products of a world-wide flood. I was a pretty well-read kid growing up, as my parents encouraged the study of all sorts of non-evolutionary science - after all, the natural world is the greatest proof of a creator in and of itself! And, for most of my young adulthood, I believed this.
However, the more I learned about biology, the more confused I got about how evolutionary theory could be a blatant lie. So, I started (covertly!) reading about evolutionary theory, and was shocked at how robust the evidence was for it. So many threads from the sciences that I already understood weaved neatly into place, and the internal consistency of my understanding of the sciences and of evolutionary theory convinced me that it was the most reasonable explanation.
Another, concurrent realization that I had in addition to the self-consistency, was that the idea that evolutionary theory was a big conspiracy seemed amazingly implausible. Conspiracies are hard. There's no incentive for educated biologists to be propping up a shoddy theory, and strong incentive for biblical-minded authors to maintain that there's a biological controversy, as denying evolution is a necessary support for their faith.
I think there are similar dynamics in what @Kroaler is talking about. There are certain segments of the media that are pushing information that doesn't agree with the preponderance of evidence (e.g. rampant U.S. election fraud) and also are incentivised to do so (e.g. their paycheque is linked to propping up Trump, via their brand or by Trump having the ability to fire them). If you're not a part of those echo chambers, it's perfectly reasonable to be "authoritarian" about pushing back on those opinions - they directly threaten trust in the U.S. electoral system and in the idea of free and fair elections. That hardly seems trivial, to me.
I'd also just like to add that just because there are two or more points of view, that doesn't automatically mean the truth lies somewhere in the middle - again, think of evolution and "Teach the Controversy". An enlightened position doesn't entertain hogwash. Sometimes people are completely misinformed, and that's okay, but misinformation needs to be countered.
Post by: mozar on December 04, 2020, 10:40:10 AM
Quote
I wont go out with my mom any more cause she has a thing she does where she likes to see how far she can get into a business before someone ask her to wear a mask.
Your mom is a Karen. Don't engage with Karens. Don't go into stores with her anymore.
My dad has been like this my whole life. Except on the left side. When he gets on the conspiracy theory track I ask him "what are you going to do about it?"
That usually shuts him down. I don't agree that ignoring it helps. I repeat what he says word for word, which sometimes helps him see how ridiculous he's being.
My theory (haha!) as to why people are behaving this way is because they actually fear uncertainty. Conspiracy theories are straightforward and easy to understand. Life, science, "evidence," are all very nuanced. If you are scared, a conspiracy might seem worth holding onto.
Post by: former player on December 04, 2020, 10:45:45 AM
And perhaps ask her whether her mother didn't teach her better manners than that.QuoteI wont go out with my mom any more cause she has a thing she does where she likes to see how far she can get into a business before someone ask her to wear a mask.
Your mom is a Karen. Don't engage with Karens. Don't go into stores with her anymore.
Post by: stoaX on December 04, 2020, 11:45:42 AM
I've had to talk about "possible" vs. "probable" with some people. That at least gets them thinking. Also had to explain Occam's Razor, as it's a similar concept. I don't know that it's changed anyone's mind, but it gives them a different yardstick to measure things by.
Talking about possible versus probable seems to me to be a polite, non- inflammatory approach. I like it!
If you are patient you can always wait a few years and bring up whatever issue your conspiracy theory believing relatives are talking about, once it's clear how things turned out. For example in 2009 you could have said "well Aunt Edna, it looks like George Bush didn't start WW3 after all". Or in 2017 you could have said "hey uncle Phil, looks like Obama never got around to taking away your guns after all".
Post by: friedmmj on December 04, 2020, 11:58:42 AM
You still didn’t define “proper information” and didn’t give any examples. I’m not sure what link you are referring to. I’m taking an arbitrary stance, I’m trying to clarify your proclamation of facts as credible and how you derived at them. It’s rather preposterous to proclaim that your sources or your understanding of the world is factual and others is not. My reference to the devine is about where evidence is more nuanced, we don’t have all the answers and evidence. It’s the same in science where the facts of today become non-facts tomorrow. It could be that a lot of misunderstanding lies in a subjective understanding of morality and ethics. So any evidence that supports your subjective perspective will be selected to validate your point. The evidence is grounded in a perceived fact but it is not necessarily factual, meaning still debatable. I don’t care what your parents believe and what you believe, I’m curious why you are so authoritarian. You seem to pathologize your parents based on their inability to differentiate perceived facts and holding different perspectives than yours. Is it worth to jeopardize your relationships with your parents over something that in the end might be very trivial?Could you define "proper information" for me?How do you know they are wrong and you are right? Maybe you are both wrong.
It's not about wrong or right. In fact without seeing it first hand, can anyone be sure they are wrong or right? It's baseless claims with no credible source. If they formed beliefs based on proper information then that's fine. There are established ways of determining if information is credible. They aren't new. I actually enjoy being open to new ideas.
But seeing them completely lose all fact checking and critical thinking is.... Idk... Sad. I thought maybe some early dementia at first, but everything else is a ok and I doubt 1/8 the country has developed early dementia all at once...
Please give me examples of an established way of determining if the information is credible.
One could argue that a belief in some divinity is baseless, would you call all of these people noncredible therefore having dementia? That's about 90% of humanity (percentile can be desputed).
You've sound like you have been hanging out with Kellyanne Conway and are espousing the concept of "alternative facts".
Post by: mathlete on December 04, 2020, 12:06:00 PM
It's sad because I think at the heart of this is just a bunch of baby boomers who are bored and crave community, but they're too set in their ways to seek it out the healthy way. Scrolling Facebook or watching cable news is almost effortless though.
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 04, 2020, 12:11:55 PM
It makes me think, can one response when politics are brought up be, Dad I know this whole thing upsets you, let’s talk about how the Lions blew another game instead.
Post by: Catica on December 04, 2020, 12:12:07 PM
I'm sensing a certain bias from what you deduced from my post.You still didn’t define “proper information” and didn’t give any examples. I’m not sure what link you are referring to. I’m taking an arbitrary stance, I’m trying to clarify your proclamation of facts as credible and how you derived at them. It’s rather preposterous to proclaim that your sources or your understanding of the world is factual and others is not. My reference to the devine is about where evidence is more nuanced, we don’t have all the answers and evidence. It’s the same in science where the facts of today become non-facts tomorrow. It could be that a lot of misunderstanding lies in a subjective understanding of morality and ethics. So any evidence that supports your subjective perspective will be selected to validate your point. The evidence is grounded in a perceived fact but it is not necessarily factual, meaning still debatable. I don’t care what your parents believe and what you believe, I’m curious why you are so authoritarian. You seem to pathologize your parents based on their inability to differentiate perceived facts and holding different perspectives than yours. Is it worth to jeopardize your relationships with your parents over something that in the end might be very trivial?Could you define "proper information" for me?How do you know they are wrong and you are right? Maybe you are both wrong.
It's not about wrong or right. In fact without seeing it first hand, can anyone be sure they are wrong or right? It's baseless claims with no credible source. If they formed beliefs based on proper information then that's fine. There are established ways of determining if information is credible. They aren't new. I actually enjoy being open to new ideas.
But seeing them completely lose all fact checking and critical thinking is.... Idk... Sad. I thought maybe some early dementia at first, but everything else is a ok and I doubt 1/8 the country has developed early dementia all at once...
Please give me examples of an established way of determining if the information is credible.
One could argue that a belief in some divinity is baseless, would you call all of these people noncredible therefore having dementia? That's about 90% of humanity (percentile can be desputed).
I'm not the OP, but I personally use two metrics to help evaluate the general "properness" of information - positive incentives and internal consistency. I'll use a hopefully non-controversial example from my past to demonstrate.
I was raised in a very conservative Christian family, and was taught that the account of Genesis was the literal truth of the creation of the world. The universe as a whole was only about 6000 years old, evolutionary theory was a hoax, and a different perspective on the available fossil and historical evidence showed that they could be explained as the products of a world-wide flood. I was a pretty well-read kid growing up, as my parents encouraged the study of all sorts of non-evolutionary science - after all, the natural world is the greatest proof of a creator in and of itself! And, for most of my young adulthood, I believed this.
However, the more I learned about biology, the more confused I got about how evolutionary theory could be a blatant lie. So, I started (covertly!) reading about evolutionary theory, and was shocked at how robust the evidence was for it. So many threads from the sciences that I already understood weaved neatly into place, and the internal consistency of my understanding of the sciences and of evolutionary theory convinced me that it was the most reasonable explanation.
Another, concurrent realization that I had in addition to the self-consistency, was that the idea that evolutionary theory was a big conspiracy seemed amazingly implausible. Conspiracies are hard. There's no incentive for educated biologists to be propping up a shoddy theory, and strong incentive for biblical-minded authors to maintain that there's a biological controversy, as denying evolution is a necessary support for their faith.
I think there are similar dynamics in what @Kroaler is talking about. There are certain segments of the media that are pushing information that doesn't agree with the preponderance of evidence (e.g. rampant U.S. election fraud) and also are incentivised to do so (e.g. their paycheque is linked to propping up Trump, via their brand or by Trump having the ability to fire them). If you're not a part of those echo chambers, it's perfectly reasonable to be "authoritarian" about pushing back on those opinions - they directly threaten trust in the U.S. electoral system and in the idea of free and fair elections. That hardly seems trivial, to me.
I'd also just like to add that just because there are two or more points of view, that doesn't automatically mean the truth lies somewhere in the middle - again, think of evolution and "Teach the Controversy". An enlightened position doesn't entertain hogwash. Sometimes people are completely misinformed, and that's okay, but misinformation needs to be countered.
Again, I'm neutral but you want to portray me that I'm not, and I somehow have to take a stance in defense of neutrality. Your story is unconvincing in a scope of highly complex understanding where authority is. Your assumption that the US elections are somewhat axiomatically perfect is dumbfounding. Historically speaking, there is a massive evidence of dysfunctional methodologies involved, and there is plenty of room for advancing the current voting system. To take a higher ground and to proclaim it as axiomatic system is authoritarian. What's next, are you going to claim that the so called democracy has no flaws simply by aligning yourself to either left or right? That is in principal highly undemocratic reasoning, to choose to see flaws only in one ideology. No ideology should have authority as all ideologies are evolving concepts and they have hundreds of manifestations historically and contemporaneously. We can debate on certain traits within ideologies, liberal, conservative, social democratic, etc. and how they manifest themselves and how they are being perceived and interpreted in different parts of the world. But none of them have delivered on all fronts for the benefit of all. And my neutrality is highly entrenched in the benefit of all. If your argument is that you only want to benefit your ideology, then I have no quandary with you, as I'm not interested where you stand and how that shapes your perception of facts and evidence.
Post by: mathlete on December 04, 2020, 12:15:06 PM
News and current events are complicated and there are often many sides to every issue. But lots of statements are flat out lies or objectively wrong.
It is okay (and necessary) to acknowledge that and it shouldn't jeopardize your status as an open-minded person.
Post by: mathlete on December 04, 2020, 12:18:38 PM
1.) It becomes clear that I've outread this person on this topic by a factor of 100
2.) They call me closed-minded because I'm very confident in my opinion on the topic,
Then I don't really need to concern myself with this person's opinion on my open-mindedness.
Post by: Arbitrage on December 04, 2020, 12:46:03 PM
There's no point in my trying to have logical, reasonable discussions with stepf about it; he's bathed in Fox News and Trump's twitter feed 18+ hours per day. It's possible they will also decide that Fox is too liberal and go down the NewsMax/OAN/Trump cult route. They're planning another visit early next year, and I'm going to make the boundaries very clear...I don't care what his political beliefs are, I'm going to prioritize my family's safety. Honestly, that part shouldn't at all be political - it's not about what the government is/should be telling you to do; it's about what I want to do to keep my family safe and prevent further spread.
Obviously, the toddler-in-chief has made even that part political.
Post by: former player on December 04, 2020, 12:52:54 PM
I think you fell into the wrong academic journal.
I'm sensing a certain bias from what you deduced from my post.
Again, I'm neutral but you want to portray me that I'm not, and I somehow have to take a stance in defense of neutrality. Your story is unconvincing in a scope of highly complex understanding where authority is. Your assumption that the US elections are somewhat axiomatically perfect is dumbfounding. Historically speaking, there is a massive evidence of dysfunctional methodologies involved, and there is plenty of room for advancing the current voting system. To take a higher ground and to proclaim it as axiomatic system is authoritarian. What's next, are you going to claim that the so called democracy has no flaws simply by aligning yourself to either left or right? That is in principal highly undemocratic reasoning, to choose to see flaws only in one ideology. No ideology should have authority as all ideologies are evolving concepts and they have hundreds of manifestations historically and contemporaneously. We can debate on certain traits within ideologies, liberal, conservative, social democratic, etc. and how they manifest themselves and how they are being perceived and interpreted in different parts of the world. But none of them have delivered on all fronts for the benefit of all. And my neutrality is highly entrenched in the benefit of all. If your argument is that you only want to benefit your ideology, then I have no quandary with you, as I'm not interested where you stand and how that shapes your perception of facts and evidence.
Post by: tipster350 on December 04, 2020, 12:57:49 PM
Skimming the thread, I feel like one thing needs to be said,
News and current events are complicated and there are often many sides to every issue. But lots of statements are flat out lies or objectively wrong.
It is okay (and necessary) to acknowledge that and it shouldn't jeopardize your status as an open-minded person.
Exactly.
We're living in a time when many believe there are "alternative facts", but in many cases there is an objective truth with no possibility of two, equally valid sides. I'm not going to waste my time trying to see the other side, when a clearly proven lie is presented.
As a (late end of the generation) Baby Boomer, it is painful to read my entire generation being painted as, basically, too old and too lazy to think logically and critically, lol, or be able to tell fact from conspiracy theory.
Just want to say there are plenty of us who are still functional :0
My 92 year old mother, who passed a few months ago, was blind and physically failing yet kept up with all the current events, and was extremely disturbed and disheartened by the state of affairs in our country. She understood the trouble we are in as a nation, how close we are to losing our fragile democracy.
Fortunately although my parents are both deceased, we were 100% aligned in our thinking about politics and current affairs. I would have a difficult time maintaining a relationship with them if they supported those who lock babies in cages and look the other way at sexual assault. If I wanted to maintain the relationship, after voicing my counterargument to the lies and propaganda a few times, i'd refuse to discuss the crazy and dangerous ideas altogether. I'd set a hard boundary around topics of discussion, because if we've learned anything in the past few years, it's that when people have fallen down into the vortex of lies and propaganda on Fox, Breitbart, OANN, etc. they are not in a place where they can be reasoned out of it.
Post by: friedmmj on December 04, 2020, 12:58:05 PM
Skimming the thread, I feel like one thing needs to be said,
News and current events are complicated and there are often many sides to every issue. But lots of statements are flat out lies or objectively wrong.
It is okay (and necessary) to acknowledge that and it shouldn't jeopardize your status as an open-minded person.
Well stated. Too often, calling out blatant lies and worse, calling out lies that are spewed intentionally for the purpose of misleading people is somehow conflated with "espousing your side of the issue" or something that should be debated as if it were a subjective matter.
Post by: Pennsylvanian on December 04, 2020, 01:01:45 PM
If you can completely avoid the topics and still have a relationship, I'd say go that route.
If they are assholes about it and can't stop trying to evangelize their lies, cut ties and be honest about why.
Those are your only options. Ask me how I know!
I wish you the best. If you find the key to deprogramming your parents and share it out, you'll surely change the world.
Post by: CCCA on December 04, 2020, 01:03:47 PM
I think the hard part about saying they are going through denial is that in normal cases, people can keep up denial for a very long time. And that's without an echo chamber reinforcing the fact that they are, in fact, correct, and it's everyone else in the world who is in denial. i.e. it's not a given that people will eventually move on from denial.
Post by: jlcnuke on December 04, 2020, 01:05:50 PM
Post by: RetiredAt63 on December 04, 2020, 01:17:25 PM
Skimming the thread, I feel like one thing needs to be said,
News and current events are complicated and there are often many sides to every issue. But lots of statements are flat out lies or objectively wrong.
It is okay (and necessary) to acknowledge that and it shouldn't jeopardize your status as an open-minded person.
Exactly.
We're living in a time when many believe there are "alternative facts", but in many cases there is an objective truth with no possibility of two, equally valid sides. I'm not going to waste my time trying to see the other side, when a clearly proven lie is presented.
As a (late end of the generation) Baby Boomer, it is painful to read my entire generation being painted as, basically, too old and too lazy to think logically and critically, lol, or be able to tell fact from conspiracy theory.
Just want to say there are plenty of us who are still functional :0
My 92 year old mother, who passed a few months ago, was blind and physically failing yet kept up with all the current events, and was extremely disturbed and disheartened by the state of affairs in our country. She understood the trouble we are in as a nation, how close we are to losing our fragile democracy.
Fortunately although my parents are both deceased, we were 100% aligned in our thinking about politics and current affairs. I would have a difficult time maintaining a relationship with them if they supported those who lock babies in cages and look the other way at sexual assault. If I wanted to maintain the relationship, after voicing my counterargument to the lies and propaganda a few times, i'd refuse to discuss the crazy and dangerous ideas altogether. I'd set a hard boundary around topics of discussion, because if we've learned anything in the past few years, it's that when people have fallen down into the vortex of lies and propaganda on Fox, Breitbart, OANN, etc. they are not in a place where they can be reasoned out of it.
Yeah, I'm early Boomer and I know how to evaluate information. And how to reassess if new info comes to light. And the difference between spin and news.
OP, blow your parents' minds and tell them there is a whole world of info out there. CBC, BBC, Al Jazeera. Sometimes foreign coverage can be really informative because it looks at things from an outsider's perspective.
And sounds like they will be eligible for the Covid vaccine fairly early. I hope they will get it. I certainly will be.
Post by: HMman on December 04, 2020, 01:55:00 PM
I'm sensing a certain bias from what you deduced from my post.I'm not saying that you're not neutral - if anything, your position seems to be *extremely* neutral, and that confuses me. To the OP's original points, do you disagree that there was a secret military operation in Germany, for example? Your initial post about the possibility of both the OP and their parents being both wrong makes it sound like you're willing to entertain that possibility for the sake of neutrality, whether or not there's any evidence for it.
Again, I'm neutral but you want to portray me that I'm not, and I somehow have to take a stance in defense of neutrality. Your story is unconvincing in a scope of highly complex understanding where authority is. Your assumption that the US elections are somewhat axiomatically perfect is dumbfounding. Historically speaking, there is a massive evidence of dysfunctional methodologies involved, and there is plenty of room for advancing the current voting system. To take a higher ground and to proclaim it as axiomatic system is authoritarian. What's next, are you going to claim that the so called democracy has no flaws simply by aligning yourself to either left or right? That is in principal highly undemocratic reasoning, to choose to see flaws only in one ideology. No ideology should have authority as all ideologies are evolving concepts and they have hundreds of manifestations historically and contemporaneously. We can debate on certain traits within ideologies, liberal, conservative, social democratic, etc. and how they manifest themselves and how they are being perceived and interpreted in different parts of the world. But none of them have delivered on all fronts for the benefit of all. And my neutrality is highly entrenched in the benefit of all. If your argument is that you only want to benefit your ideology, then I have no quandary with you, as I'm not interested where you stand and how that shapes your perception of facts and evidence.
Just so it's clear, too, I'm not saying and haven't said that the U.S. electoral system is perfect, and can't be improved. I must have not wrote clearly if that's how you read it - my apologies.
Post by: SwordGuy on December 04, 2020, 02:49:18 PM
If you find the key to deprogramming your parents and share it out, you'll surely change the world.
This lady found a way. It's awesome.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6447821/Political-dominatrix-uses-mind-games-turn-right-wing-men-socialists.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6447821/Political-dominatrix-uses-mind-games-turn-right-wing-men-socialists.html)
Post by: Catica on December 04, 2020, 03:18:47 PM
I'm sensing a certain bias from what you deduced from my post.I'm not saying that you're not neutral - if anything, your position seems to be *extremely* neutral, and that confuses me. To the OP's original points, do you disagree that there was a secret military operation in Germany, for example? Your initial post about the possibility of both the OP and their parents being both wrong makes it sound like you're willing to entertain that possibility for the sake of neutrality, whether or not there's any evidence for it.
Again, I'm neutral but you want to portray me that I'm not, and I somehow have to take a stance in defense of neutrality. Your story is unconvincing in a scope of highly complex understanding where authority is. Your assumption that the US elections are somewhat axiomatically perfect is dumbfounding. Historically speaking, there is a massive evidence of dysfunctional methodologies involved, and there is plenty of room for advancing the current voting system. To take a higher ground and to proclaim it as axiomatic system is authoritarian. What's next, are you going to claim that the so called democracy has no flaws simply by aligning yourself to either left or right? That is in principal highly undemocratic reasoning, to choose to see flaws only in one ideology. No ideology should have authority as all ideologies are evolving concepts and they have hundreds of manifestations historically and contemporaneously. We can debate on certain traits within ideologies, liberal, conservative, social democratic, etc. and how they manifest themselves and how they are being perceived and interpreted in different parts of the world. But none of them have delivered on all fronts for the benefit of all. And my neutrality is highly entrenched in the benefit of all. If your argument is that you only want to benefit your ideology, then I have no quandary with you, as I'm not interested where you stand and how that shapes your perception of facts and evidence.
Just so it's clear, too, I'm not saying and haven't said that the U.S. electoral system is perfect, and can't be improved. I must have not wrote clearly if that's how you read it - my apologies.
Fair enough. Let me explain what I meant by "neutrality". It seems to be impossible to find time and resources to validate truth in the barrage of information we are exposed to on daily basis. What did strike me the most was the propensity of the OP to pathologize his own parents. It could be that he is right and they are wrong in some particular instance. I can't really arbitrate who is right or wrong. I sense proclivity to taking a higher ground by the OP, which in the larger picture him pathologizing his own parents or some group of people over some unverified or verified facts is rather alarming. This exponential polarization over some weaponized facts and hyperbolized labels is very destructive and polarize the society more, killing the due process of rational debate and Socratean thinking, ultimately in the end feeding the frenzy of the Hegelian dialectic. Very sad.
Post by: Cranky on December 04, 2020, 03:46:02 PM
Post by: Sibley on December 04, 2020, 04:10:26 PM
I'm sensing a certain bias from what you deduced from my post.I'm not saying that you're not neutral - if anything, your position seems to be *extremely* neutral, and that confuses me. To the OP's original points, do you disagree that there was a secret military operation in Germany, for example? Your initial post about the possibility of both the OP and their parents being both wrong makes it sound like you're willing to entertain that possibility for the sake of neutrality, whether or not there's any evidence for it.
Again, I'm neutral but you want to portray me that I'm not, and I somehow have to take a stance in defense of neutrality. Your story is unconvincing in a scope of highly complex understanding where authority is. Your assumption that the US elections are somewhat axiomatically perfect is dumbfounding. Historically speaking, there is a massive evidence of dysfunctional methodologies involved, and there is plenty of room for advancing the current voting system. To take a higher ground and to proclaim it as axiomatic system is authoritarian. What's next, are you going to claim that the so called democracy has no flaws simply by aligning yourself to either left or right? That is in principal highly undemocratic reasoning, to choose to see flaws only in one ideology. No ideology should have authority as all ideologies are evolving concepts and they have hundreds of manifestations historically and contemporaneously. We can debate on certain traits within ideologies, liberal, conservative, social democratic, etc. and how they manifest themselves and how they are being perceived and interpreted in different parts of the world. But none of them have delivered on all fronts for the benefit of all. And my neutrality is highly entrenched in the benefit of all. If your argument is that you only want to benefit your ideology, then I have no quandary with you, as I'm not interested where you stand and how that shapes your perception of facts and evidence.
Just so it's clear, too, I'm not saying and haven't said that the U.S. electoral system is perfect, and can't be improved. I must have not wrote clearly if that's how you read it - my apologies.
Fair enough. Let me explain what I meant by "neutrality". It seems to be impossible to find time and resources to validate truth in the barrage of information we are exposed to on daily basis. What did strike me the most was the propensity of the OP to pathologize his own parents. It could be that he is right and they are wrong in some particular instance. I can't really arbitrate who is right or wrong. I sense proclivity to taking a higher ground by the OP, which in the larger picture him pathologizing his own parents or some group of people over some unverified or verified facts is rather alarming. This exponential polarization over some weaponized facts and hyperbolized labels is very destructive and polarize the society more, killing the due process of rational debate and Socratean thinking, ultimately in the end feeding the frenzy of the Hegelian dialectic. Very sad.
I am dealing with parents who openly doubt that people are dying of COVID-19 everyday. Or believe that Biden created the virus. They think Obama was Muslim and was born in Africa somewhere and they call him in all seriousness an evil man, then they turn around and defend Hitler. They think there was widespread fraudulent voting in the most recent election which caused Biden to win. My mom is starting to express anti-vaxxer beliefs. I've heard that Jews are involved in a conspiracy to take over the financial system (yet they can't define what they mean when they say financial system), the Muslims are plotting to destroy America, and the Mexicans are lazy bums who deserve to have their children taken away. I got to listen to the rant about how unfairly Trump is being treated by the press, at least until I hung up. I hear that it's a good thing that children have been separated from their parents and thrown into cages, except oops 2 minutes later I'm told that they don't believe it ever happened.
You say you can't arbitrate who is right and who is wrong. But there are things are not a matter of opinion. There are basic FACTS which are being disregarded and disbelieved, combined with a depressing breakdown of critical thinking. And it's happening to my parents, and a lot of other people too. Previously reasoned people are now saying and sincerely believing these things, and frankly my mom isn't spouting off a good chunk of the crazy that is out there.
You say you're worried about rational debate and yet rational debate is NOT POSSIBLE with someone who is no longer thinking rationally, for whatever reason. How can you possibly have a rational debate when the other party refuses to even consider that what you say might have validity? When any questioning of their preferred information source is met with a tirade about how corrupt everyone and everything is, except their preferred information source.
If it sounds illogical, that's because it is. Logic and reason don't work, there's a different rule book that is being followed, one which is perfectly ok with inconsistencies and illogical beliefs - as evidenced by the crap I hear from my parents on a regular basis. So please stop trying to apply reason and logic and neutrality, because all it does is annoy me and piss me off and show me that you have no idea what I or anyone else is seeing and hearing from these people.
Post by: Sandi_k on December 04, 2020, 04:24:13 PM
How to handle this? There is no way to handle it. People will believe what they want to believe and the current environment allows any kooky or dangerous theory to gain traction if it is promoted and spread.
If you can completely avoid the topics and still have a relationship, I'd say go that route.
It's no longer about topics: it's about death. My ILs think that they are "safe" because they are only going to work or out for groceries. They don't understand the issue of a "bubble" only being as small as their son - who works with my FIL. The son is out and about to people's homes, refuses to mask, thinks that CV-19 isn't worse than the flu.
I refused to go to their home for Thanksgiving. Now, with Xmas, for the first time since 1981, my DH and I will spend Xmas apart - because he feels that he needs to spend it with his parents. I would never over-ride that. But he's going on his own, and will be isolating for 10 days when he comes home.
It's no longer about politics and Fox News. It's about life and death.
Post by: bbqbonelesswing on December 04, 2020, 05:20:16 PM
I'm sensing a certain bias from what you deduced from my post.I'm not saying that you're not neutral - if anything, your position seems to be *extremely* neutral, and that confuses me. To the OP's original points, do you disagree that there was a secret military operation in Germany, for example? Your initial post about the possibility of both the OP and their parents being both wrong makes it sound like you're willing to entertain that possibility for the sake of neutrality, whether or not there's any evidence for it.
Again, I'm neutral but you want to portray me that I'm not, and I somehow have to take a stance in defense of neutrality. Your story is unconvincing in a scope of highly complex understanding where authority is. Your assumption that the US elections are somewhat axiomatically perfect is dumbfounding. Historically speaking, there is a massive evidence of dysfunctional methodologies involved, and there is plenty of room for advancing the current voting system. To take a higher ground and to proclaim it as axiomatic system is authoritarian. What's next, are you going to claim that the so called democracy has no flaws simply by aligning yourself to either left or right? That is in principal highly undemocratic reasoning, to choose to see flaws only in one ideology. No ideology should have authority as all ideologies are evolving concepts and they have hundreds of manifestations historically and contemporaneously. We can debate on certain traits within ideologies, liberal, conservative, social democratic, etc. and how they manifest themselves and how they are being perceived and interpreted in different parts of the world. But none of them have delivered on all fronts for the benefit of all. And my neutrality is highly entrenched in the benefit of all. If your argument is that you only want to benefit your ideology, then I have no quandary with you, as I'm not interested where you stand and how that shapes your perception of facts and evidence.
Just so it's clear, too, I'm not saying and haven't said that the U.S. electoral system is perfect, and can't be improved. I must have not wrote clearly if that's how you read it - my apologies.
Fair enough. Let me explain what I meant by "neutrality". It seems to be impossible to find time and resources to validate truth in the barrage of information we are exposed to on daily basis. What did strike me the most was the propensity of the OP to pathologize his own parents. It could be that he is right and they are wrong in some particular instance. I can't really arbitrate who is right or wrong. I sense proclivity to taking a higher ground by the OP, which in the larger picture him pathologizing his own parents or some group of people over some unverified or verified facts is rather alarming. This exponential polarization over some weaponized facts and hyperbolized labels is very destructive and polarize the society more, killing the due process of rational debate and Socratean thinking, ultimately in the end feeding the frenzy of the Hegelian dialectic. Very sad.
I believe the entire point of OP's post was that his parents were the ones not engaging in "rational debate". To blame OP for "killing the due process of rational debate and Socratean thinking" is quite ridiculous, when he is actually the one party asking for advice as to how to get his parents to engage in such discussion.
Post by: SwordGuy on December 04, 2020, 05:33:07 PM
I'm sensing a certain bias from what you deduced from my post.I'm not saying that you're not neutral - if anything, your position seems to be *extremely* neutral, and that confuses me. To the OP's original points, do you disagree that there was a secret military operation in Germany, for example? Your initial post about the possibility of both the OP and their parents being both wrong makes it sound like you're willing to entertain that possibility for the sake of neutrality, whether or not there's any evidence for it.
Again, I'm neutral but you want to portray me that I'm not, and I somehow have to take a stance in defense of neutrality. Your story is unconvincing in a scope of highly complex understanding where authority is. Your assumption that the US elections are somewhat axiomatically perfect is dumbfounding. Historically speaking, there is a massive evidence of dysfunctional methodologies involved, and there is plenty of room for advancing the current voting system. To take a higher ground and to proclaim it as axiomatic system is authoritarian. What's next, are you going to claim that the so called democracy has no flaws simply by aligning yourself to either left or right? That is in principal highly undemocratic reasoning, to choose to see flaws only in one ideology. No ideology should have authority as all ideologies are evolving concepts and they have hundreds of manifestations historically and contemporaneously. We can debate on certain traits within ideologies, liberal, conservative, social democratic, etc. and how they manifest themselves and how they are being perceived and interpreted in different parts of the world. But none of them have delivered on all fronts for the benefit of all. And my neutrality is highly entrenched in the benefit of all. If your argument is that you only want to benefit your ideology, then I have no quandary with you, as I'm not interested where you stand and how that shapes your perception of facts and evidence.
Just so it's clear, too, I'm not saying and haven't said that the U.S. electoral system is perfect, and can't be improved. I must have not wrote clearly if that's how you read it - my apologies.
Fair enough. Let me explain what I meant by "neutrality". It seems to be impossible to find time and resources to validate truth in the barrage of information we are exposed to on daily basis. What did strike me the most was the propensity of the OP to pathologize his own parents. It could be that he is right and they are wrong in some particular instance. I can't really arbitrate who is right or wrong. I sense proclivity to taking a higher ground by the OP, which in the larger picture him pathologizing his own parents or some group of people over some unverified or verified facts is rather alarming. This exponential polarization over some weaponized facts and hyperbolized labels is very destructive and polarize the society more, killing the due process of rational debate and Socratean thinking, ultimately in the end feeding the frenzy of the Hegelian dialectic. Very sad.
If anyone isn't sure, this is a great example of "Gaslighting".
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on December 04, 2020, 05:36:16 PM
Everyone thinks (or at least talks like) absolutely EVERYTHING is black and white with no reason to discuss. Truth and Falsity is used like I've never seen before.
I'm seeing Trump saying stuff that is ridiculous. I'm seeing news headlines like "Trump Falsely claims he has succeeded in defeating virus", non-sensical statements that are logically neither true nor false. These are all things that we used to have an opinion page for.
Everything is absolutely obviously true or false depending on what side of the aisle you are on. Abortion? That's easy of course life is definitely defensible the second after a baby is born and not the second before, or of course the baby is alive the moment the heart starts beating, etc. Even specific laws. Regulation requiring a minority person serve on a board?, if you support it you are either righteous or racist on one side or if you deny it you are uneducated or a racist on that side.
We get to the point the absoluteness becomes obviously ridiculous, e.g.:
The American presidential election results is by definition correct and all who say otherwise are idiots (this is what the democrats say as pure undeniable truth in 2020 and republicans deny),
The American presidential election results is by definition corrupted (this is what democrats say is undeniable truth in 2016 and republicans deny) .
Anti-Vaxers were called uneducated idiots until 2020 by the same people don't now trust the "Trump vaccine". You could say of course antivaxers are insane, but then those same people claim to believe the government violated blacks in Tuskegee, which a lot of people believe. (isn't that all worth an investigation or at least a conversation as opposed to the one side looking down upon the other). I watch Fox news and I say what idiots if they really believe that, and then I watch MSNBC and Mika talking down to people differently depending the party it matters to (of course the US election is undeniable as long as you are talking about 2020 and not 2016, of course every person ever killed because of race was a black man killed by a white man)
Heck, There are still tons of people out there that say the towers were bombed by the Bush government in order to bring the middle east war that otherwise condemn conspiracy theorist. No democrat ever calls that a Falsity because it doesn't suit the theme.
People used to have the opinion that whatever is in their parties interest to believe is the correct opinion. Now they say it is fact. Its weird there is even an opinion page anymore.
That means everyone in the other party is evil or an idiot.
This is basically showing 96% of americans are dupes (those that always support their party line, whatever it is), and why all responsible intelligent discussion (and any real bipartisan workings) are gone forever now.
Post by: partgypsy on December 04, 2020, 05:47:55 PM
I don't get it. Both her and her husband are in high risk categories and they were still eating in restaurants on a regular basis?
OTOH my mother is in the opposite camp. She is overdue for her annual checkup and her doctor will not re up her meds without an annual. so she is going to get her a1c tested at a pharmacy, check her bp, and do a phone/video appt.
Post by: marty998 on December 04, 2020, 05:59:46 PM
This is interesting. Science is ever evolving and there are many people who have better credentials than Fauci who disagree with him.
How about we start with science? There are experts in various fields of study such as Dr Fauci with decades of experience in various subject matters and/or have been published in peer reviewed scientific journals.
Then we can move onto facts and evidence that would hold up in a court of law. That is another objective standard to apply.
Regarding religious belief, it's best not to challenge peoples' faith and worship beliefs unless those happen to infringe on the rights and safety of others.
I didn't think the original post was about that.
Ahh the old “many people” nonsense that DT keeps going on about without specifically saying who.
For better or worse Fauci and his team of officials are the ones who are in the unenviable position of trying to manage the public message here on behalf of the government.
If you think Fauci and his polite advice to wear masks and keep basic hygiene and maintaining a reasonable distance from others to prevent the spread of what, at it’s most basic form, is a generic communicable disease is crackpot nonsense then just come out and say it.
Post by: Catica on December 04, 2020, 06:08:18 PM
Did your parents break a law by having these views? Did they physically hurt anyone? They are just having views that you don't like. Are you being emotionally disturbed? If so, see a psychologist immediately to help you out with how to deal with the opinions of your parents. What's your solution? Since your parents are irrational according to your beliefs and facts, do you want to lock them up in a mental institution? Do you want to medicate them or euthanize them or goose-step them to a crematorium? Clearly you call your parents "these people", that's not different than Cheka apparatchiks or any sturmfuhrer was eager to do with anybody who interpreted the facts differently than them. I'm sure you would make a good securocrat. You would be a good candidate to run a Stazi reprogramming. Stop venting just deal with it. I'm dealing with family members with opposing points of view and I'm not being annoyed and pissed off at them, but you are more than welcome to continue being pissed of and being annoyed.I'm sensing a certain bias from what you deduced from my post.I'm not saying that you're not neutral - if anything, your position seems to be *extremely* neutral, and that confuses me. To the OP's original points, do you disagree that there was a secret military operation in Germany, for example? Your initial post about the possibility of both the OP and their parents being both wrong makes it sound like you're willing to entertain that possibility for the sake of neutrality, whether or not there's any evidence for it.
Again, I'm neutral but you want to portray me that I'm not, and I somehow have to take a stance in defense of neutrality. Your story is unconvincing in a scope of highly complex understanding where authority is. Your assumption that the US elections are somewhat axiomatically perfect is dumbfounding. Historically speaking, there is a massive evidence of dysfunctional methodologies involved, and there is plenty of room for advancing the current voting system. To take a higher ground and to proclaim it as axiomatic system is authoritarian. What's next, are you going to claim that the so called democracy has no flaws simply by aligning yourself to either left or right? That is in principal highly undemocratic reasoning, to choose to see flaws only in one ideology. No ideology should have authority as all ideologies are evolving concepts and they have hundreds of manifestations historically and contemporaneously. We can debate on certain traits within ideologies, liberal, conservative, social democratic, etc. and how they manifest themselves and how they are being perceived and interpreted in different parts of the world. But none of them have delivered on all fronts for the benefit of all. And my neutrality is highly entrenched in the benefit of all. If your argument is that you only want to benefit your ideology, then I have no quandary with you, as I'm not interested where you stand and how that shapes your perception of facts and evidence.
Just so it's clear, too, I'm not saying and haven't said that the U.S. electoral system is perfect, and can't be improved. I must have not wrote clearly if that's how you read it - my apologies.
Fair enough. Let me explain what I meant by "neutrality". It seems to be impossible to find time and resources to validate truth in the barrage of information we are exposed to on daily basis. What did strike me the most was the propensity of the OP to pathologize his own parents. It could be that he is right and they are wrong in some particular instance. I can't really arbitrate who is right or wrong. I sense proclivity to taking a higher ground by the OP, which in the larger picture him pathologizing his own parents or some group of people over some unverified or verified facts is rather alarming. This exponential polarization over some weaponized facts and hyperbolized labels is very destructive and polarize the society more, killing the due process of rational debate and Socratean thinking, ultimately in the end feeding the frenzy of the Hegelian dialectic. Very sad.
I am dealing with parents who openly doubt that people are dying of COVID-19 everyday. Or believe that Biden created the virus. They think Obama was Muslim and was born in Africa somewhere and they call him in all seriousness an evil man, then they turn around and defend Hitler. They think there was widespread fraudulent voting in the most recent election which caused Biden to win. My mom is starting to express anti-vaxxer beliefs. I've heard that Jews are involved in a conspiracy to take over the financial system (yet they can't define what they mean when they say financial system), the Muslims are plotting to destroy America, and the Mexicans are lazy bums who deserve to have their children taken away. I got to listen to the rant about how unfairly Trump is being treated by the press, at least until I hung up. I hear that it's a good thing that children have been separated from their parents and thrown into cages, except oops 2 minutes later I'm told that they don't believe it ever happened.
You say you can't arbitrate who is right and who is wrong. But there are things are not a matter of opinion. There are basic FACTS which are being disregarded and disbelieved, combined with a depressing breakdown of critical thinking. And it's happening to my parents, and a lot of other people too. Previously reasoned people are now saying and sincerely believing these things, and frankly my mom isn't spouting off a good chunk of the crazy that is out there.
You say you're worried about rational debate and yet rational debate is NOT POSSIBLE with someone who is no longer thinking rationally, for whatever reason. How can you possibly have a rational debate when the other party refuses to even consider that what you say might have validity? When any questioning of their preferred information source is met with a tirade about how corrupt everyone and everything is, except their preferred information source.
If it sounds illogical, that's because it is. Logic and reason don't work, there's a different rule book that is being followed, one which is perfectly ok with inconsistencies and illogical beliefs - as evidenced by the crap I hear from my parents on a regular basis. So please stop trying to apply reason and logic and neutrality, because all it does is annoy me and piss me off and show me that you have no idea what I or anyone else is seeing and hearing from these people.
Post by: Catica on December 04, 2020, 06:21:32 PM
So according to you the solution is for the parents to change their point of view? Would you consider that a "rational debate"? How about avoiding topics of controversy, how is that so hard? To put it bluntly, if I'm a believer and you are not, and you are holding your opinion so strongly, you would never talk to me and deem me irrational? Where do you people come from? No wonder there are not enough psychologists in this country and we are on a brink of a civil war. Are you dying for censorship and a thought crime and preventing people to have any kind of beliefs? How are you going to eradicate the so called irrational thinking? Will you criminalize it? Are you pro deprogramming as someone here suggested? What's your solution? Have you heard of Voltaire? Maybe that should be a start for you.I'm sensing a certain bias from what you deduced from my post.I'm not saying that you're not neutral - if anything, your position seems to be *extremely* neutral, and that confuses me. To the OP's original points, do you disagree that there was a secret military operation in Germany, for example? Your initial post about the possibility of both the OP and their parents being both wrong makes it sound like you're willing to entertain that possibility for the sake of neutrality, whether or not there's any evidence for it.
Again, I'm neutral but you want to portray me that I'm not, and I somehow have to take a stance in defense of neutrality. Your story is unconvincing in a scope of highly complex understanding where authority is. Your assumption that the US elections are somewhat axiomatically perfect is dumbfounding. Historically speaking, there is a massive evidence of dysfunctional methodologies involved, and there is plenty of room for advancing the current voting system. To take a higher ground and to proclaim it as axiomatic system is authoritarian. What's next, are you going to claim that the so called democracy has no flaws simply by aligning yourself to either left or right? That is in principal highly undemocratic reasoning, to choose to see flaws only in one ideology. No ideology should have authority as all ideologies are evolving concepts and they have hundreds of manifestations historically and contemporaneously. We can debate on certain traits within ideologies, liberal, conservative, social democratic, etc. and how they manifest themselves and how they are being perceived and interpreted in different parts of the world. But none of them have delivered on all fronts for the benefit of all. And my neutrality is highly entrenched in the benefit of all. If your argument is that you only want to benefit your ideology, then I have no quandary with you, as I'm not interested where you stand and how that shapes your perception of facts and evidence.
Just so it's clear, too, I'm not saying and haven't said that the U.S. electoral system is perfect, and can't be improved. I must have not wrote clearly if that's how you read it - my apologies.
Fair enough. Let me explain what I meant by "neutrality". It seems to be impossible to find time and resources to validate truth in the barrage of information we are exposed to on daily basis. What did strike me the most was the propensity of the OP to pathologize his own parents. It could be that he is right and they are wrong in some particular instance. I can't really arbitrate who is right or wrong. I sense proclivity to taking a higher ground by the OP, which in the larger picture him pathologizing his own parents or some group of people over some unverified or verified facts is rather alarming. This exponential polarization over some weaponized facts and hyperbolized labels is very destructive and polarize the society more, killing the due process of rational debate and Socratean thinking, ultimately in the end feeding the frenzy of the Hegelian dialectic. Very sad.
I believe the entire point of OP's post was that his parents were the ones not engaging in "rational debate". To blame OP for "killing the due process of rational debate and Socratean thinking" is quite ridiculous, when he is actually the one party asking for advice as to how to get his parents to engage in such discussion.
Post by: partgypsy on December 04, 2020, 08:20:30 PM
Some good advice has already been given. To focus on local concrete news, particularly positive things. To do participatory activities, and steer away from these discussions. To put it another way, even if the news is "real", focusing on unpleasant distressing information over which we have no locus of control, to the exclusion of things within our control or bring us joy and comfort and fulfillment is a recipe for misery and unhappiness. Psychological symptoms and behavior Are clinically significant if it impacts the person's social, emotional, occupational life in a negative or harmful way.
Post by: Sibley on December 04, 2020, 08:42:55 PM
Fuck off.
Post by: Catica on December 04, 2020, 09:24:45 PM
Catica, I'm not sure if you are just in an argumentative mood, (or what)... but the op states that the parents believe in things that are quite verifiably false information. That they feel so to speak the world is ending, and are stressed. And that his siblings are also concerned. Maybe it is their business? I guess there are some false beliefs that don't hurt anyone (I have this lucky rabbits foot that protects me). There are also some false beliefs that can be clearly damaging or even dangerous. While this isn't as bad as believing you can fly, or that the only way you can exorcise your neighbor is by cutting off his head, it is still distressing to see your parents scared, angry, upset for no good reason. If you don't have anything helpful to say, maybe not say anything at all?You must have missed where I recommended that the OP doesn't engage in controversial topics and does not jeopardize his relationship with his parents over some ridiculous interpretation of facts.
Some good advice has already been given. To focus on local concrete news, particularly positive things. To do participatory activities, and steer away from these discussions. To put it another way, even if the news is "real", focusing on unpleasant distressing information over which we have no locus of control, to the exclusion of things within our control or bring us joy and comfort and fulfillment is a recipe for misery and unhappiness. Psychological symptoms and behavior Are clinically significant if it impacts the person's social, emotional, occupational life in a negative or harmful way.
Post by: partgypsy on December 04, 2020, 09:45:23 PM
maybe you need to read your posts again to see what you said, including offensive name calling and making baseless accusations of the op including "euthanizing" his parents. I'm not going to post again because you are trolling and a waste of time.Catica, I'm not sure if you are just in an argumentative mood, (or what)... but the op states that the parents believe in things that are quite verifiably false information. That they feel so to speak the world is ending, and are stressed. And that his siblings are also concerned. Maybe it is their business? I guess there are some false beliefs that don't hurt anyone (I have this lucky rabbits foot that protects me). There are also some false beliefs that can be clearly damaging or even dangerous. While this isn't as bad as believing you can fly, or that the only way you can exorcise your neighbor is by cutting off his head, it is still distressing to see your parents scared, angry, upset for no good reason. If you don't have anything helpful to say, maybe not say anything at all?You must have missed where I recommended that the OP doesn't engage in controversial topics and does not jeopardize his relationship with his parents over some ridiculous interpretation of facts.
Some good advice has already been given. To focus on local concrete news, particularly positive things. To do participatory activities, and steer away from these discussions. To put it another way, even if the news is "real", focusing on unpleasant distressing information over which we have no locus of control, to the exclusion of things within our control or bring us joy and comfort and fulfillment is a recipe for misery and unhappiness. Psychological symptoms and behavior Are clinically significant if it impacts the person's social, emotional, occupational life in a negative or harmful way.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on December 04, 2020, 09:59:36 PM
Catica is not posting in good faith, nor do they seem to have any clue as to what the rest of us are talking about. I am not engaging with them any further. And I very much hope that they learn some empathy and compassion, but based on this thread I won't hold my breath.
Fuck off.
I think I quit reading after the first reply. Maybe it reflects poorly on me but I would have needed a dictionary to read some of the replies from Catica.
All the other post from Catica I didn't reply to cause you never know what kind of day someone had. The tone from Catica in this thread seems out of character compared to previous post.
Anywho - it seems alot of people have the same issue as me. Maybe it will sort itself out in time. One can only hope.
Post by: gooki on December 05, 2020, 01:41:02 AM
Post by: former player on December 05, 2020, 02:19:13 AM
Catica's statements (I can't call them replies as they don't relate to any of the conversation on this thread) remind me of the worst sort of minor academic: wordy, abstruse, negative, irrelevant and pointless other than to rack up another publishing credit.Catica is not posting in good faith, nor do they seem to have any clue as to what the rest of us are talking about. I am not engaging with them any further. And I very much hope that they learn some empathy and compassion, but based on this thread I won't hold my breath.
Fuck off.
I think I quit reading after the first reply. Maybe it reflects poorly on me but I would have needed a dictionary to read some of the replies from Catica.
All the other post from Catica I didn't reply to cause you never know what kind of day someone had. The tone from Catica in this thread seems out of character compared to previous post.
Anywho - it seems alot of people have the same issue as me. Maybe it will sort itself out in time. One can only hope.
Post by: damnedbee on December 05, 2020, 08:59:28 AM
A lot of this boils down to psychology. It helped me to try to understand why some people, even intelligent "normal" thinkers, could be more prone to certain beliefs than others. Conspiracy theories generally take root in times of uncertainty (hello, global pandemic, climate disasters, economic crisis), and people are more prone to latch onto a conspiracy theory when they feel powerless and disenfranchised by society. It's their way of exerting control and helping to feel like they have some influence in scary times, or that they are more clever than the "sheeple." Couple that with the modern rise of social media, deliberate spread of false information by people in power, rise of the 24/7 entertainment "news" cycle, and collapse of critical thinking and media literacy, and we have a perfect storm. I particularly worry about the rise of junk infotainment like Newsmax and OANN.
You can't really combat someone's thinking around a particular conspiracy theory; they will only dig in deeper, and it's a waste of your time and energy to try to debunk anything. In general, the only thing that has ever worked for me to defuse a conversation is to use humor and generalities. When someone starts ranting about Government Conspiracy X, I might casually remark that I find it hard to believe that the same human beings involved in running your friendly local department of motor vehicles are capable of orchestrating a vast plot to overthrow the world. Or I might say that there is so much floating around that it's hard to know what to believe, so I try to read a variety of reputable news sources to make sure I'm seeing all angles. The idea is just to plant the seed of critical thinking without forcing it on the other person or making them feel defensive or judged.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on December 05, 2020, 09:33:22 AM
"Do you really think Chief Green down at the local city police office is part of the grand scheme? What about Linda over at the tax office?"
But usually it re directs to big government. At which point I say something like "Big government can barely conspire to make a cup of coffee on a good day. Did you see the response to (Insert disaster here)"
But at a higher level. Even if we can explain the suspense in critical thinking, what about the personality change that my parents and so many others have experienced?
Kind Christian values people, suddenly filled with hate and rage for their fellow Americans. Idk about your part of the world, but around here in the South, a lot of folks I know are legit enthused by the idea of a civil war, they been preparing for a long time.... My Parent support civil war at this moment - and it ain't just them. And you say, "well its easy to hate something without assigning a face to it". My Mom has made comments about the "Mexicans" ruining our country in front of my girlfriend who is a Hernandez. . . . . (We had a little talk after that one...)
Anyway here is my conspiracy theory:
Were in a war with our foreign enemies trying to destroy us from within, and the majority of the population isn't aware. From what I see - Our enemies are still advancing every day. Hopefully something is done before they win...
Post by: mozar on December 05, 2020, 09:48:33 AM
There are a lot of shitty things that do happen that are true, but for reasons I don't understand conspiracy theorists ignore those.
Post by: LaineyAZ on December 05, 2020, 10:31:24 AM
By saying that, we are unfortunately furthering the idea that all government is bad, a waste of our tax dollars, etc. Which then leads to the rise in pushback when e.g., our government health professionals want everyone to wear a mask, limit un-needed contact, etc. because that's "taking away our freedom." The underlying belief is caused by the constant denigrating of our government employees.
Instead, my tactic is to say that the conspiracy is not plausible because humans can't keep a secret. One example is the TWA 800 flight to Paris that broke apart off of the NY coast - there was an immediate rumor that it was actually shot down by the U.S. military and not a mechanical failure. Simple math would show, if true, at least several hundred people would have to have engaged in a cover-up - does it sound plausible that every one of them would have been able to keep their mouth shut all this time?
Post by: Poundwise on December 05, 2020, 03:52:56 PM
[apologies to our friends who are actually Boomers/seniors and have not fallen prey to this epidemic of gullibility. I would be interested to see whether the conspiracy theorist elderly show dementia earlier than those who don't.]
Post by: RetiredAt63 on December 05, 2020, 04:53:44 PM
Maybe there are cognitive issues going on with the Boomers/Greatest Generation. My mother's friend, who used to be very sharp, got taken in by a phone scam for several thousand dollars. It's not a coincidence that these scams target the elderly.
[apologies to our friends who are actually Boomers/seniors and have not fallen prey to this epidemic of gullibility. I would be interested to see whether the conspiracy theorist elderly show dementia earlier than those who don't.]
Hmm, all my friends seem to be fine, but then we get the crazy stuff second-hand. The anti-mask demonstrators here are NOT Boomers, from the pictures they are the 20-45 crowd.
Post by: BNgarden on December 05, 2020, 04:54:24 PM
Post by: Metalcat on December 06, 2020, 06:41:44 AM
Thankfully, they believe in covid and despise Trump, so I don't have to put up with any of this particular brand of conspiracy nonsense right now, which is great.
However, I have a few decades under my belt of navigating conspiracies and handling them with patients, so I'll share my strategies.
First Step: Validate Validate Validate
-This is the first step for all conflict management, make sure their feelings and concerns are validated. Before rejecting their position, take a keen interest in understanding the feelings that are motivating them to seek out this type of information. Validate those feelings.
Ex:
You: "mom, it sounds like you're really afraid of what's going on with the government right now, I want to know what you're feeling most afraid of"
Mom: *says something that makes it clear that she doesn't trust her own democratically elected government*
You: "I totally understand. Politics have gotten so crazy these days, I've had a lot of similar feelings at times. It's really stressful"
Second Step: Explore the things they are probably right about
-There *is* an enormous amount of bias in a lot of media these days, you can cite facts that news outlets used to be more objective, non partisan, you can bond over the fact that watching the 6 o'clock News wasn't a bold political statement back in the day. It *is* hard to just trust the news anymore and that's legitimately stressful.
At this stage it would be really useful to have some solid examples of so-called leftist media bias that bother you. Ex: Obama is a media darling, but no one ever seems to talk about his role in fracking, or something like that.
For me, I really bonded over disliking CNN. I was watching American news early in Trump's presidency, and the coverage on CNN constantly made it sound as if he was moments away from being charged with something, and this was way before that was even close to being a possibility. I so wanted to understand what was going on, but it was so sensationalized it was impossible to parse anything meaningful.
Step Three: Push That Further
-As you build trust, as they feel you understand them and respect their distrust of media and even share it to a degree, you can extend the logic to include their own media.
Show how no media is immune to corruption, look at how they used to trust Fox News implicitly. Open them up to the concept that all news sources are fallible.
Step Four: Start working together to establish what types of sources of information might be valid
-Work collaboratively to determine what fact checking they would be comfortable with, maybe you can become a trusted fact checker?
At the end of the day, these people are scared and looking for reassurance. By rejecting their concerns and supporting the very media they fear, you just add yourself to the things they'll worry about.
They are desperately seeking sources of information they can unquestioningly trust, which is ironic considering the genesis of the problem is not trusting information. But the paradoxical thinking is also your access point for redirecting what they have faith in.
I myself am a former scientist and a medical professional, and my family has been heavily involved in politics my entire life. Because of my extensive experience in the above industries, I don't trust any of them.
I actually genuinely understand where the mistrust comes from in these people, so I don't attack their mistrust, I instead challenge their irrational faith in whatever nonsense media they're consuming. I utilize their own drive to mistrust in order to devalue their news sources instead of trying to promote the value of mine. It's then no longer partisan.
It's extremely uncomfortable to not trust any major sources of information, but that's where I bring them to with baby steps. Either they will eventually find comfort in evaluating each piece of information on their own, or they will be so desperate for a new arbiter of truth that I can slot myself into that position for them, which makes my life easier.
You cants "fact check" anyone unless they believe you to be someone who has access to facts.
Post by: rmorris50 on December 06, 2020, 07:15:24 AM
If the person holding the religious belief isn’t admit to acknowledge that it’s a belief they chose to hold and there is not proof for their belief and thus they could be wrong, then yes they are deluding themselves.Could you define "proper information" for me?How do you know they are wrong and you are right? Maybe you are both wrong.
It's not about wrong or right. In fact without seeing it first hand, can anyone be sure they are wrong or right? It's baseless claims with no credible source. If they formed beliefs based on proper information then that's fine. There are established ways of determining if information is credible. They aren't new. I actually enjoy being open to new ideas.
But seeing them completely lose all fact checking and critical thinking is.... Idk... Sad. I thought maybe some early dementia at first, but everything else is a ok and I doubt 1/8 the country has developed early dementia all at once...
Please give me examples of an established way of determining if the information is credible.
One could argue that a belief in some divinity is baseless, would you call all of these people noncredible therefore having dementia? That's about 90% of humanity (percentile can be desputed).
Perception is reality and Trump knows this, that’s what makes him so dangerous and why Trump embraces fake news.
On the other hand tho; I tell my family they have to remember the President has much less power than people think. Most the platforms the President runs on is really controlled by congress. The President rally only has half a dozen or so critical functions. So again how does a President gain power? By manipulating perceptions.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on December 06, 2020, 07:20:59 AM
How do you know they are wrong and you are right? Maybe you are both wrong.
It took awhile, but someone finally asked the correct question. Well done, @Catica
It's all about perspective. I see a whole lot of folks here clucking their tongues about about their parents and loved ones believing "fake" news and how it's so difficult to get through to them. So why not flip the equation? Are we all so certain of our perspective? So why not put ourselves in the shoes of the parent? Here we have children that we raised from birth who are obviously brainwashed into believing a lot of mainstream media lies and propaganda and they seemingly have no concern about it!
I'll tell you one thing that I learned* from my years of involvement in politics (both major US factions and one minor, thank you very much) is that there is little in the way of undisputed facts and even less objective truth. It's all about power and control. Each group has it's own, but remarkably similar agenda. Most of them are trying to gaslight everyone else, cheating, lying through their teeth, and generally acting like bunch of amoral jackasses. All while trying to cloak themselves in their twisted version of Morality.
So how about a strategy that I use when wanting to talk to The Converted of various stripes? You stow your emotions in a box. And you listen politely. And while you listen you try to puzzle out what the underlying fear is. Because it usually boils down to some sort of fear which is being manipulated. And loneliness. You're not going to be able to change people's strongly held views. But you might have some context to talk about the underlying fears. And most importantly it'll make you feel better, because you're doing something useful rather than bitching about it.
We owe a special duty to honor our parents. To hold them in respect; to esteem them. So what's so hard about listening to them, even if they hold views that we find odd or even repugnant? It's not like they're going to turn you into a toad or something. And your ears aren't going spontaneously bleed. Listening isn't agreement.
* (A second thing I learned: you might be able to tease out some useful information by being closely tuned in to the differing political views, but in the end it's not worth the effort.)
Post by: Laserjet3051 on December 06, 2020, 07:32:39 AM
How do you know they are wrong and you are right? Maybe you are both wrong.
It took awhile, but someone finally asked the correct question. Well done, @Catica
It's all about perspective. I see a whole lot of folks here clucking their tongues about about their parents and loved ones believing "fake" news and how it's so difficult to get through to them. So why not flip the equation? Are we all so certain of our perspective? So why not put ourselves in the shoes of the parent? Here we have children that we raised from birth who are obviously brainwashed into believing a lot of mainstream media lies and propaganda and they seemingly have no concern about it!
I'll tell you one thing that I learned* from my years of involvement in politics (both major US factions and one minor, thank you very much) is that there is little in the way of undisputed facts and even less objective truth. It's all about power and control. Each group has it's own, but remarkably similar agenda. Most of them are trying to gaslight everyone else, cheating, lying through their teeth, and generally acting like bunch of amoral jackasses. All while trying to cloak themselves in their twisted version of Morality.
So how about a strategy that I use when wanting to talk to The Converted of various stripes? You stow your emotions in a box. And you listen politely. And while you listen you try to puzzle out what the underlying fear is. Because it usually boils down to some sort of fear which is being manipulated. And loneliness. You're not going to be able to change people's strongly held views. But you might have some context to talk about the underlying fears. And most importantly it'll make you feel better, because you're doing something useful rather than bitching about it.
We owe a special duty to honor our parents. To hold them in respect; to esteem them. So what's so hard about listening to them, even if they hold views that we find odd or even repugnant? It's not like they're going to turn you into a toad or something. And your ears aren't going spontaneously bleed. Listening isn't agreement.
* (A second thing I learned: you might be able to tease out some useful information by being closely tuned in to the differing political views, but in the end it's not worth the effort.)
+100
Thank you for posting this, it was overdue.
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on December 06, 2020, 07:33:48 AM
We live in strange times indeed. I generally try to avoid political discussions with certain family and friends. Between social media, the internet in general and non-stop media impersonating the news, it's where we are these days. It's hard not to be cynical these days.
Lately, I have been simply trying to keep my daily interactions with others respectful and positive and try not to let the "noise" affect my well being.
A wise perspective. There is nothing to be won by getting into unnecessary arguments with people who love you. I'm fine with family and friends bringing up politics, but I also have the unfair advantage of hard apoliticism and they all know it. So in the end it isn't going to affect me or my relationship with them. But simply avoiding politics works very well too.
Post by: Adventine on December 06, 2020, 07:46:18 AM
X was something they were committed to doing, even though I vehemently disagreed and tried to convince them otherwise.
My honesty was enough to break through to the other person. The relationship was saved. And they eventually stopped doing X out of their own free will after a few years.
Post by: ctuser1 on December 06, 2020, 08:17:56 AM
In my case, my mom is the dominant personality. My dad is prone to conspiracy theories. I just talk to my mom and she generally manages to set dad straight. I'm not sure he is convinced otherwise, but he does not get the support network necessary for these to become full blown paranoia.
I may be lucky in this specific case and YMMV. My mom is the dominant personality and she implicitly trusts me. My MIL is also prone to conspiracy theories and I have concluded that I have zero ability to help her. I don't use facebook (thankfully). She often posts super-crazy stuff on facebook and I hear DW on the phone with her having a fight, where MIL promises to shape up and goes back to doing the same thing again in a week.
Post by: Sibley on December 06, 2020, 08:57:00 AM
I have a few conspiracy theorists in my family.
Thankfully, they believe in covid and despise Trump, so I don't have to put up with any of this particular brand of conspiracy nonsense right now, which is great.
However, I have a few decades under my belt of navigating conspiracies and handling them with patients, so I'll share my strategies.
First Step: Validate Validate Validate
-This is the first step for all conflict management, make sure their feelings and concerns are validated. Before rejecting their position, take a keen interest in understanding the feelings that are motivating them to seek out this type of information. Validate those feelings.
Ex:
You: "mom, it sounds like you're really afraid of what's going on with the government right now, I want to know what you're feeling most afraid of"
Mom: *says something that makes it clear that she doesn't trust her own democratically elected government*
You: "I totally understand. Politics have gotten so crazy these days, I've had a lot of similar feelings at times. It's really stressful"
Second Step: Explore the things they are probably right about
-There *is* an enormous amount of bias in a lot of media these days, you can cite facts that news outlets used to be more objective, non partisan, you can bond over the fact that watching the 6 o'clock News wasn't a bold political statement back in the day. It *is* hard to just trust the news anymore and that's legitimately stressful.
At this stage it would be really useful to have some solid examples of so-called leftist media bias that bother you. Ex: Obama is a media darling, but no one ever seems to talk about his role in fracking, or something like that.
For me, I really bonded over disliking CNN. I was watching American news early in Trump's presidency, and the coverage on CNN constantly made it sound as if he was moments away from being charged with something, and this was way before that was even close to being a possibility. I so wanted to understand what was going on, but it was so sensationalized it was impossible to parse anything meaningful.
Step Three: Push That Further
-As you build trust, as they feel you understand them and respect their distrust of media and even share it to a degree, you can extend the logic to include their own media.
Show how no media is immune to corruption, look at how they used to trust Fox News implicitly. Open them up to the concept that all news sources are fallible.
Step Four: Start working together to establish what types of sources of information might be valid
-Work collaboratively to determine what fact checking they would be comfortable with, maybe you can become a trusted fact checker?
At the end of the day, these people are scared and looking for reassurance. By rejecting their concerns and supporting the very media they fear, you just add yourself to the things they'll worry about.
They are desperately seeking sources of information they can unquestioningly trust, which is ironic considering the genesis of the problem is not trusting information. But the paradoxical thinking is also your access point for redirecting what they have faith in.
I myself am a former scientist and a medical professional, and my family has been heavily involved in politics my entire life. Because of my extensive experience in the above industries, I don't trust any of them.
I actually genuinely understand where the mistrust comes from in these people, so I don't attack their mistrust, I instead challenge their irrational faith in whatever nonsense media they're consuming. I utilize their own drive to mistrust in order to devalue their news sources instead of trying to promote the value of mine. It's then no longer partisan.
It's extremely uncomfortable to not trust any major sources of information, but that's where I bring them to with baby steps. Either they will eventually find comfort in evaluating each piece of information on their own, or they will be so desperate for a new arbiter of truth that I can slot myself into that position for them, which makes my life easier.
You cants "fact check" anyone unless they believe you to be someone who has access to facts.
Malcat, this is the single most helpful thing on this topic that I have ever read, anywhere. Thank you. You correctly diagnosed the problem (which others have done), but you also laid out step by step how to combat it.
Post by: NaN on December 06, 2020, 09:01:33 AM
Are we all so certain of our perspective? So why not put ourselves in the shoes of the parent? Here we have children that we raised from birth who are obviously brainwashed into believing a lot of mainstream media lies and propaganda and they seemingly have no concern about it!
What about children forced to grow up under parents involved in unsavory religious institutions that brainwashed them at a young age? I am not talking about a cult on farm, but large scale religious institutions.
We owe a special duty to honor our parents. To hold them in respect; to esteem them.
This is the kind of guilt I find common in religious settings. It is a way to exert control, drive compliance, and keep the survival of beliefs. It took me a long time to break free of the guilt associated with my parent's religion. I don't esteem my parents for raising us in that environment.
Tying back to the original OP question, "how to handle parents who believe in fake news?", I find the best way to handle it is make it clear to them what I believe and move on. It has taken me years to break free of some of the religious garbage and be confident in my own views. For one issue I have made it clear to them I disagree. If they don't like it, tough shit. However, I have said exactly this before the recent election:
"My relationship with you is more important than my belief about X. Our relationship has lasted so many years that it would be a shame to let X ruin that."
I think every relationship is different, so your mileage may vary. I don't think I can even have the "First Step" conversation @Malcat is suggesting.
Post by: Luck12 on December 06, 2020, 09:13:49 AM
We owe a special duty to honor our parents. To hold them in respect; to esteem them. So what's so hard about listening to them, even if they hold views that we find odd or even repugnant? It's not like they're going to turn you into a toad or something. And your ears aren't going spontaneously bleed. Listening isn't agreement.
Nah man that is some authoritarian bullshit. Parents aren't special, big deal they had sex decades ago and you were born. I respect my parents not b/c they're my parents but because they're worthy of my respect as people. Not everyone is worthy of you listening to them either.
Your kind of thinking is no different from "we have a special duty to respect the President, to esteem them". Fuck that, nobody has to respect anyone who's a monstrous sociopath. Way too many people think like you, no wonder fascism has always existed.
The rest of your post is nothing but "but both sides" bullshit.
Post by: wenchsenior on December 06, 2020, 09:22:28 AM
We owe a special duty to honor our parents. To hold them in respect; to esteem them. So what's so hard about listening to them, even if they hold views that we find odd or even repugnant? It's not like they're going to turn you into a toad or something. And your ears aren't going spontaneously bleed. Listening isn't agreement.
Nah man that is some authoritarian bullshit. Parents aren't special, big deal they had sex decades ago and you were born. I respect my parents not b/c they're my parents but because they're worthy of my respect as people. Not everyone is worthy of you listening to them either.
The rest of your post is nothing but "but both sides" bullshit.
100% agree. I both like and love my parents...no particular bones to pick with them. But they are just people.
Post by: Green_Tea on December 06, 2020, 09:26:29 AM
Since your parents are irrational according to your beliefs and facts, do you want to lock them up in a mental institution? Do you want to medicate them or euthanize them or goose-step them to a crematorium? Clearly you call your parents "these people", that's not different than Cheka apparatchiks or any sturmfuhrer was eager to do with anybody who interpreted the facts differently than them. I'm sure you would make a good securocrat. You would be a good candidate to run a Stazi reprogramming.
The euthanization, Soviet, Nazi and Stasi stuff is very offensive and disturbing. These comparisons are WAY out of line. What was stated in the post this poster was responding to was clearly SO different than the thinking and doing of all these organizations, and the comparison is offending to the writer as well as trivializing these organizations so I reported the post.
If someone thinks these comparisons are ok, please read up on history.
I know some time passed since the post, but I think this should be pointed out.
Post by: achvfi on December 06, 2020, 09:57:51 AM
We live in strange times indeed. I generally try to avoid political discussions with certain family and friends. Between social media, the internet in general and non-stop media impersonating the news, it's where we are these days. It's hard not to be cynical these days.
Lately, I have been simply trying to keep my daily interactions with others respectful and positive and try not to let the "noise" affect my well being.
A wise perspective. There is nothing to be won by getting into unnecessary arguments with people who love you. I'm fine with family and friends bringing up politics, but I also have the unfair advantage of hard apoliticism and they all know it. So in the end it isn't going to affect me or my relationship with them. But simply avoiding politics works very well too.
This is the thinking why people stay in their information bubble when no one around them says differently. They get entrenched in their beliefs because everyone around them is either agreeing with them or staying silent or pivoting to agreeable common beliefs like blame it on media.
You dont have to argue with them but I believe its our responsibility not to stay silent.
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on December 06, 2020, 11:06:57 AM
We owe a special duty to honor our parents. To hold them in respect; to esteem them. So what's so hard about listening to them, even if they hold views that we find odd or even repugnant? It's not like they're going to turn you into a toad or something. And your ears aren't going spontaneously bleed. Listening isn't agreement.
Nah man that is some authoritarian bullshit. Parents aren't special, big deal they had sex decades ago and you were born. I respect my parents not b/c they're my parents but because they're worthy of my respect as people. Not everyone is worthy of you listening to them either.
Your kind of thinking is no different from "we have a special duty to respect the President, to esteem them". Fuck that, nobody has to respect anyone who's a monstrous sociopath. Way too many people think like you, no wonder fascism has always existed.
The rest of your post is nothing but "but both sides" bullshit.
Nice. But sure, Let’s discuss. There is a big difference between accepting obvious evil and the latest extreme hyperbole of some political twit being “worse than Hitler” which seems to be all the rage here. Sorry, I don’t buy the hyperbole, nor do I buy that there is some inherent danger to listening to even extreme points of view. But in fairness there is a point of view, that’s widely shared, that ideas in and of themselves are dangerous and such be suppressed. I disagree with it. Different strokes.
I’ve also made my peace with there being a lot of self-entitled, spoiled people out there who viscerally hate traditional norms or people who disagree with them. It did bother me at one time, but now I just view it as an opportunity.
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on December 06, 2020, 11:33:19 AM
We live in strange times indeed. I generally try to avoid political discussions with certain family and friends. Between social media, the internet in general and non-stop media impersonating the news, it's where we are these days. It's hard not to be cynical these days.
Lately, I have been simply trying to keep my daily interactions with others respectful and positive and try not to let the "noise" affect my well being.
A wise perspective. There is nothing to be won by getting into unnecessary arguments with people who love you. I'm fine with family and friends bringing up politics, but I also have the unfair advantage of hard apoliticism and they all know it. So in the end it isn't going to affect me or my relationship with them. But simply avoiding politics works very well too.
This is the thinking why people stay in their information bubble when no one around them says differently. They get entrenched in their beliefs because everyone around them is either agreeing with them or staying silent or pivoting to agreeable common beliefs like blame it on media.
You dont have to argue with them but I believe its our responsibility not to stay silent.
Yeah, the "silence is death" canard. I'm not interested in evangelizing. And it certainly isn't my job to swing people to one political point of view or the other, especially since I think they're all more or less worthless. And let's ask: how has all that non-silence worked out since it's so popular of late? Are people happier? Better adjusted? Less inclined to isolate in their own little bubbles?
It's a lot more interesting, and frankly satisfying, to accept people as they are. Again, discussion is not agreement. And admittedly I do find teasing out why people think the way they do to be fairly interesting. There is usually some small underlying truth to even the most extreme and repugnant views.
Post by: Poundwise on December 06, 2020, 12:20:22 PM
It's a lot more interesting, and frankly satisfying, to accept people as they are. Again, discussion is not agreement. And admittedly I do find teasing out why people think the way they do to be fairly interesting.
If your goal is to be entertained by other people, sure. If your goal is to help the people you love, and to help humanity, the POV you support is not useful.
Post by: obstinate on December 06, 2020, 12:40:36 PM
Post by: achvfi on December 06, 2020, 02:14:26 PM
Don't. If it were possible to convince them that incorrect news is incorrect, they wouldn't have embraced it so willingly in the first place. Enjoy your parents for who they are and don't speak to them about politics. It won't do any good 99.9% of the time.
Yeah, the "silence is death" canard. I'm not interested in evangelizing. And it certainly isn't my job to swing people to one political point of view or the other, especially since I think they're all more or less worthless. And let's ask: how has all that non-silence worked out since it's so popular of late? Are people happier? Better adjusted? Less inclined to isolate in their own little bubbles?
It's a lot more interesting, and frankly satisfying, to accept people as they are. Again, discussion is not agreement. And admittedly I do find teasing out why people think the way they do to be fairly interesting. There is usually some small underlying truth to even the most extreme and repugnant views.
Its not about evangelizing or convincing others of your view point is right, politics, news, whatever.
Its about being there for your friends and loved ones, when they need a rational and intelligent people around them to bounce off ideas. Someone they they love and respect.
Its about people getting sucked into extremely convincing narratives and going down negative spirals.
People are looking for good examples and examples matter. When you stay silent you are contributing to negative spiral.
Post by: bbqbonelesswing on December 06, 2020, 03:33:44 PM
Quote
Examples of current belief:
1.) Fox news is democrat controlled so it can't be trusted any more - the only "real" place to get information is this Chinese guy on youtube. - They were all about fox untill about 4 weeks ago ish.
2.) There was a secret military operation in Germany recently that recovered voting servers showing trump actually won by a huge amount.
3.) Because of 1 and 2 they also believe in the stolen election non sense and that military action needs to be taken against the states to forcefully keep Trump in.
What Boris and Catica are essentially saying is that OP should listen politely to an anonymous Chinese guy on YouTube, and thoughtfully consider the idea that a secret military operation took place to rig the US election.
Yeah, that's going to be a hard no for me. I'll listen to my parents when they have a different opinion, but not when they are spouting nonsense that is, quite literally, made up without any reliable evidence whatsoever.
Post by: Cranky on December 06, 2020, 04:05:59 PM
Post by: ender on December 06, 2020, 04:32:11 PM
The internet makes everything look equally valid, and that’s a serious problem.
Everyone's an expert on the internet too!
Post by: BNgarden on December 06, 2020, 06:08:54 PM
Anyway here is my conspiracy theory:
Were in a war with our foreign enemies trying to destroy us from within, and the majority of the population isn't aware. From what I see - Our enemies are still advancing every day. Hopefully something is done before they win...
This article notes how 'normal' it can be for humans to believe conspiracies exist:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/opinion/sunday/trump-election-fraud.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/opinion/sunday/trump-election-fraud.html)
And at the end, the author's suggestions (copied here because the article may be paywalled):
My own attempts at argument have run as follows: To the conspiracy-curious Republican whose curiosity is validated by Trump’s allegations of fraud, I’ve suggested that the place to look for fire amid the smoke is in claims that the president’s lawyers are actually willing to advance in court, as opposed to in news conferences, semiofficial hearings and on Twitter. Those lawyers — especially now that it’s mostly just the Rudy Giuliani show — have every incentive to blow a fraud case wide open. If their legal claims don’t actually allege fraud or they fall apart under scrutiny, then so should your assumption that the president’s blustering must have some real-world correlative.
To the outsider-intellectuals fascinated by anomalies in ballot counts or ballot return patterns, I’ve argued that anomalies indicating fraud would have to show up in the final vote totals — meaning some pattern of results in key swing-state cities that differ starkly from the results in cities in less-contested states, or some turnout pattern in a swing state’s suburbs that looks weird relative to the suburbs in a deep- blue or deep-red state. But where claims for those kinds of anomalies have been offered, they’ve turned out to be false. So until a compelling example can be cited, anomalies in the counting process should be presumed to be error or randomness, not fraud.
Finally to the radicalized, I’ve tried to convey, based on my own knowledge of how liberal institutions work, that what looked stage-managed to outsiders in the May and June disturbances actually reflected organic upheaval and division, sincere antiracism and disorganized Trump-phobia, a crisis in the mind of liberalism, a dose of religious revival, plus a chaotic revolt by city-dwellers against a lockdown experience that fell heavily on them. Hypocrisy and radicalism alike there was in plenty, but literally nobody was in charge, except sometimes for activists in the younger generation who sensed a professional opportunity, and any supposed “plan” or “reset” was just a hapless attempt by elder statesmen to get woke. Put more succinctly: The liberal establishment that I watched stagger through May and June could not plan a sweeping voter-fraud conspiracy to save its life.
Have I persuaded anyone with these arguments? Maybe not, and as a columnist for a noted establishment organ, I’m probably not the best person to make them anyway. That distinction belongs to people more enmeshed in the conservative universe, scribes for National Review and talk-radio hosts and conservative media critics, all of whom are the more important arguers for an intra-Republican debate.
But I am certain that these issues are connected to a larger and more important question for the future of the right. At the moment, the voter-fraud narrative is being deployed, often by people more cynical than the groups I’ve just described, to help an outgoing president — one who twice lost the popular vote and displayed gross incompetence in the face of his administration’s greatest challenge — stake a permanent claim to the leadership of his party and establish himself as the presumptive Republican nominee in 2024. And it’s being used to push aside the more compelling narrative that the Republican Party could take away from 2020, which is that Trump’s presidency demonstrated that populism can provide a foundation for conservatism, but to build on it the right needs a very different leader than the man Joe Biden just defeated.
That’s the most important argument for the next four years — and one I’ll be making firmly, passionately, right up until the Republican Party nominates Trump again in 2024.
Post by: SwordGuy on December 06, 2020, 07:20:16 PM
And let's ask: how has all that non-silence worked out since it's so popular of late? Are people happier? Better adjusted? Less inclined to isolate in their own little bubbles?
It worked great until Trump made racist bigots feel safe about openly being racist bigots.
Until then, for the last 30 years or so, they kept their mouths shut because they knew the hate filled bile they felt inside was socially unacceptable and might get them fired or ostracized.
Loved it. The world was a nicer place when bigots were afraid to openly be bigots.
Post by: Cassie on December 06, 2020, 08:22:08 PM
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on December 06, 2020, 09:55:02 PM
As a baby boomer I don’t know anyone that believes the conspiracy theories and that isn’t willing to take the vaccine. We live on the west coast so that may be the difference. I feel for you guys that are dealing with this. I would have never jeopardized my relationship with my parents to be right. They were very important to me. So I would avoid the topic.
I imagine your perspective from the west coast is different from my perspective in a southern red state in the Bible belt indeed.
Post by: Cassie on December 06, 2020, 10:06:14 PM
Post by: powskier on December 06, 2020, 10:16:03 PM
I have recently lost family members to Covid, so please try to make any "hoax" people aware of their shared responsibility in the ongoing loss of life, do not "tolerate" it. This is equal to many Germans going along with all the beliefs about Jews being responsible for imagined crimes, and will be viewed as harshly with hindsight. Call them out.
Post by: SwordGuy on December 06, 2020, 11:03:35 PM
As someone who called out all the religious "fake news" my family and culture were trying to indoctrinate me with when I was 10, I am only surprised that so many people are only concerned about people believing in things without evidence now. People are barely aware of their own consciousness, let alone all the ways in which we can so easily fool ourselves, or WANT to believe certain things. Americans are consumers foremost, and this includes consuming ideas and groupthink, call them out on it, kindly.
I have recently lost family members to Covid, so please try to make any "hoax" people aware of their shared responsibility in the ongoing loss of life, do not "tolerate" it. This is equal to many Germans going along with all the beliefs about Jews being responsible for imagined crimes, and will be viewed as harshly with hindsight. Call them out.
This.
My own parents started becoming toxic racists as they got older. That's not just my wife and I thinking that, my mom's sister thought so too.
When people can safely express bigoted hate and bile, they will express it more often.
When people can safely take hateful bigoted actions, they will take them more often.
A few people are incorrigably evil. A few people are determined to be good. The bulk are in the middle and a huge chunk of that middle group will "go along to get along". If being nice to minorities is what others expect, the wishy-washy folks will go along. If treating minorities like dirt is what their peer group expects, well, that's what they'll do, too.
My goal is to never let people cross the line into active bigotry without them paying a social price for it. That social price may include others turning away from them in disgust, it may mean folks calling them out for their vile statements or actions, or the law called on them if they've broken it -- or if life and limb of others are in immediate danger due to their actions, then using violence until they stop endangering others. I want their actions to be in the public spotlight so they become extremely uncomfortable about actively being a bigot towards others.
There aren't gobs of people determined to commit evil bigoted actions no matter what. But if the wishy-washy people feel it's safer to support the bigots rather than nice people, then evil starts to rule all of us.
The bigots have been emboldened for the last 4 1/2 years. It's past time to make them pay again.
Post by: Segare on December 07, 2020, 05:23:23 AM
It took awhile, but someone finally asked the correct question. Well done, @Catica
Here we have children that we raised from birth who are obviously brainwashed into believing a lot of mainstream media lies and propaganda and they seemingly have no concern about it!
I'll tell you one thing that I learned* from my years of involvement in politics (both major US factions and one minor, thank you very much) is that there is little in the way of undisputed facts and even less objective truth. It's all about power and control. Each group has it's own, but remarkably similar agenda.
Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids. One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.
Post by: Metalcat on December 07, 2020, 05:38:18 AM
And let's ask: how has all that non-silence worked out since it's so popular of late? Are people happier? Better adjusted? Less inclined to isolate in their own little bubbles?
It worked great until Trump made racist bigots feel safe about openly being racist bigots.
Until then, for the last 30 years or so, they kept their mouths shut because they knew the hate filled bile they felt inside was socially unacceptable and might get them fired or ostracized.
Loved it. The world was a nicer place when bigots were afraid to openly be bigots.
You sure about that?
I witnessed A LOT of open and frank bigotry and racial violence over the past 30+ years, and it was pretty bad 30 years ago.
Post by: ctuser1 on December 07, 2020, 05:43:35 AM
It took awhile, but someone finally asked the correct question. Well done, @Catica
Here we have children that we raised from birth who are obviously brainwashed into believing a lot of mainstream media lies and propaganda and they seemingly have no concern about it!
I'll tell you one thing that I learned* from my years of involvement in politics (both major US factions and one minor, thank you very much) is that there is little in the way of undisputed facts and even less objective truth. It's all about power and control. Each group has it's own, but remarkably similar agenda.
Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids. One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.
It is trivially easy to figure out if it is a case of someone expanding his horizons or becoming bigoted.
Case 1: Expanding horizons
The person in question will become more and more uncertain what the truth is. He will become aware of multiple points of view, and will be dead against the absolutist actions that the far right propose.
Case 2: Paranoid Delusions -> bigotry
The person will be dead certain that there is a "war on Christianity", or that many people "hate his traditional views", or that the coastal elites "eat babies", or that stasi/KGB/Socialists/Communists are hiding under his bed, etc. etc. etc.
To me, as ridiculous as such paranoid delusions are, they aren't generally indicative of mental breakdown - the absolute actionable certainty about them is! And this can come from people who are outwardly very functional (like we are seeing instances in this thread itself).
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on December 07, 2020, 07:23:15 AM
It took awhile, but someone finally asked the correct question. Well done, @Catica
Here we have children that we raised from birth who are obviously brainwashed into believing a lot of mainstream media lies and propaganda and they seemingly have no concern about it!
I'll tell you one thing that I learned* from my years of involvement in politics (both major US factions and one minor, thank you very much) is that there is little in the way of undisputed facts and even less objective truth. It's all about power and control. Each group has it's own, but remarkably similar agenda.
Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids. One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.
It is trivially easy to figure out if it is a case of someone expanding his horizons or becoming bigoted.
Case 1: Expanding horizons
The person in question will become more and more uncertain what the truth is. He will become aware of multiple points of view, and will be dead against the absolutist actions that the far right propose.
Case 2: Paranoid Delusions -> bigotry
The person will be dead certain that there is a "war on Christianity", or that many people "hate his traditional views", or that the coastal elites "eat babies", or that stasi/KGB/Socialists/Communists are hiding under his bed, etc. etc. etc.
To me, as ridiculous as such paranoid delusions are, they aren't generally indicative of mental breakdown - the absolute actionable certainty about them is! And this can come from people who are outwardly very functional (like we are seeing instances in this thread itself).
"Actionable certainty" - Thats the words I needed. That is what worries me. The virus example below is one, but there are many more where action is being taken already. Like your (fake) beliefs are fine, untill you start acting on them.
Virus is a hoax? Don't wear your mask, continue about your life like nothing is up.
Post by: SwordGuy on December 07, 2020, 08:14:34 AM
And let's ask: how has all that non-silence worked out since it's so popular of late? Are people happier? Better adjusted? Less inclined to isolate in their own little bubbles?
It worked great until Trump made racist bigots feel safe about openly being racist bigots.
Until then, for the last 30 years or so, they kept their mouths shut because they knew the hate filled bile they felt inside was socially unacceptable and might get them fired or ostracized.
Loved it. The world was a nicer place when bigots were afraid to openly be bigots.
You sure about that?
I witnessed A LOT of open and frank bigotry and racial violence over the past 30+ years, and it was pretty bad 30 years ago.
Yes, I am sure.
I, too have seen lots of bigotry over the years. Many of the white people in those hate-filled bigoted mobs in civil rights photos were still alive and so are the children they raised.
But where I used to see them test the waters in a conversation with a couple of people, to see whether it was safe to come out and say whatever bigoted bile was festering in their soul, now they just come out and say it. And march in numbers to do it.
Post by: teacherwithamustache on December 07, 2020, 08:19:57 AM
All of this had me thinking: Is coming out like this what it was like when our parents told their friends that their children were gay or dating someone of another race?
Example:
1970: Mom and Dad sitting around the dinner table with friends. Mom " Yes it is true our Daughter is a Lesbian but we love her anyways. We are praying it is just a phase she is going thru?"
2020: Son and Wife sitting around the dinner table with friends. Son " Yes it is true my Mom and Dad believe that the Clintons were pedifiles and Trump really won the 2nd election except for all of that cheating"
Support whoever you want to support but realize there is so much dirt and filth on both sides.
Thank you MMM for providing a forum to seek help for this matter!
Post by: obstinate on December 07, 2020, 08:22:12 AM
Its about being there for your friends and loved ones, when they need a rational and intelligent people around them to bounce off ideas. Someone they they love and respect.If their beliefs were doing them harm in some way, sure. Or if they were materially harming someone else. While collectively I agree that these foolish beliefs are a problem, any individual holder of such incorrect beliefs is basically harmless on their own. Your parents would be no better off if you could convince them of how wrong they are, no one else would be either, and you can't anyway. That is the basis for my suggestion to avoid the subject.
Post by: Tinker on December 07, 2020, 08:37:38 AM
Post by: Luck12 on December 07, 2020, 10:20:48 AM
Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids. One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.
That might be true for some things but not when it comes to fake news. There are studies indicating the elderly are much more susceptible to fake news and share it much more often. Plus older people are more racist per many studies. Not to mention if only people < 55 voted we'd be much likelier to have universal health care and other things.
Post by: ctuser1 on December 07, 2020, 10:26:39 AM
It is trivially easy to figure out if it is a case of someone expanding his horizons or becoming bigoted.
Case 1: Expanding horizons
The person in question will become more and more uncertain what the truth is. He will become aware of multiple points of view, and will be dead against the absolutist actions that the far right propose.
Case 2: Paranoid Delusions -> bigotry
The person will be dead certain that there is a "war on Christianity", or that many people "hate his traditional views", or that the coastal elites "eat babies", or that stasi/KGB/Socialists/Communists are hiding under his bed, etc. etc. etc.
To me, as ridiculous as such paranoid delusions are, they aren't generally indicative of mental breakdown - the absolute actionable certainty about them is! And this can come from people who are outwardly very functional (like we are seeing instances in this thread itself).
"Actionable certainty" - Thats the words I needed. That is what worries me. The virus example below is one, but there are many more where action is being taken already. Like your (fake) beliefs are fine, untill you start acting on them.
Virus is a hoax? Don't wear your mask, continue about your life like nothing is up.
I can't pretend that I can understand the magnitude of the problem you are encountering in deep south. I posted upthread about my dad who has shown a propensity of believing in conspiracy theories. Fortunately, he has a support network around him (my mom, both of my siblings live in the same city as him) that likely prevents him from going over the edge.
Do you happen to have the opportunity to chip away at one of your parents first, alone, when the other is not present? When both are reinforcing each-other's conspiracy theory beliefs, it is difficult for anyone to get through. In my case, my mom implicitly trusts me and hence I have often used her to reach dad. If you do get the opportunity, I'd try to understand the paranoid delusions that underlie their behavior, and try to chip away at that. They are afraid of communists? Perhaps have them come over to any big city and meet some people they think of as "communists".
It's just a random suggestion based on what I do or have done. I have no background in psychology/psychiatry, or any particular understanding of the southern culture.
Also, I am one of those that DO believe that I owe a special debt of gratitude to my parents, no matter what. My parents know this. This - in my experience - allows difficult conversations to happen much more easily than otherwise. I can't, for example, help my MIL (also prone to conspiracy theories) because I can't connect with her in the same way.
Post by: Segare on December 07, 2020, 10:38:03 AM
People call different news sources fake, who is right?
Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids. One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.
That might be true for some things but not when it comes to fake news. There are studies indicating the elderly are much more susceptible to fake news and share it much more often. Plus older people are more racist per many studies. Not to mention if only people < 55 voted we'd be much likelier to have universal health care and other things.
As far as your Universal Health care statement, that is a sign that older people have a slight better understanding of Individual Rights and or realize things done by the government is usually worse than the free market. With years lived comes wisdom.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on December 07, 2020, 10:44:13 AM
Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids. One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.
That might be true for some things but not when it comes to fake news. There are studies indicating the elderly are much more susceptible to fake news and share it much more often. Plus older people are more racist per many studies. Not to mention if only people < 55 voted we'd be much likelier to have universal health care and other things.
So this brings an interesting thought. Not my parents, but a friend of mines parents have spent and continue to spend a large majority of their savings, maybe $10,000 or so (it wasnt very big to begin with.) on weapons and ammunition, to the point that they lack money for food occasionally. I'm not here to argue what will happen in the future, but this represents a breakdown in critical thinking to me. A need to eat is certain, a (insert disaster requiring self self defense) is a possibility.
This is an example of the "actionable certainty" that worries me. So my friend is in a tough spot. On one hand my friend now has to make sure the parents have food.... while simultaneously their parents want to convert him to their view. - Luckily mine havent done anything like this - Yet.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on December 07, 2020, 10:53:53 AM
I'm really shocked by the amount of "two sides to everything" and "How do you know your source is right" advice being given on this thread.
Some information is false and verifiable as such . The earth isn't flat... etc etc. (or does someone on here question this as well?)
Post by: Luck12 on December 07, 2020, 11:06:37 AM
As a side note:
I'm really shocked by the amount of "two sides to everything" and "How do you know your source is right" advice being given on this thread.
Some information is false and verifiable as such . The earth isn't flat... etc etc. (or does someone on here question this as well?)
They're in the minority on this thread and in the real world (though still far too many out in the real world) but yeah it's absurd. We're not talking about different economic or health care financing policies to help people for example where reasonable minds can disagree. It's also really dangerous and lazy to just throw up your hands and say "who knows what's right and wrong", that just allows more of this batshit unproven crazy conspiracy shit that OP's parents believe to proliferate. This kind of thing has happened all throughout history and the consequences are not good to put it mildly.
Post by: GuitarStv on December 07, 2020, 11:09:21 AM
People call different news sources fake, who is right?
No news organization is perfect. Even the best and most reliable sources of news occasionally screw up. But facts exist. It's on you, as a consumer of news to research, validate, and verify the news that you get from a source . . . especially if it's something that seems unusual or surprising. You might have to read through some scientific journals/articles, you might have to double and triple check sources, you might have to comb through some video of a recorded event to hear the real quote in context. But (and not to get too x-filesy) the truth is out there.
Post by: former player on December 07, 2020, 11:34:54 AM
In my working life I was on the inside of some big news stories. The reputable news outlets (BBC, The Times, etc.) would not have all the details but they supplied a general gist of what was going on that was good enough for all ordinary purposes and would not have misled anyone as to what was happening.People call different news sources fake, who is right?
No news organization is perfect. Even the best and most reliable sources of news occasionally screw up. But facts exist. It's on you, as a consumer of news to research, validate, and verify the news that you get from a source . . . especially if it's something that seems unusual or surprising. You might have to read through some scientific journals/articles, you might have to double and triple check sources, you might have to comb through some video of a recorded event to hear the real quote in context. But (and not to get too x-filesy) the truth is out there.
Post by: HMman on December 07, 2020, 11:45:28 AM
People call different news sources fake, who is right?
No news organization is perfect. Even the best and most reliable sources of news occasionally screw up. But facts exist. It's on you, as a consumer of news to research, validate, and verify the news that you get from a source . . . especially if it's something that seems unusual or surprising. You might have to read through some scientific journals/articles, you might have to double and triple check sources, you might have to comb through some video of a recorded event to hear the real quote in context. But (and not to get too x-filesy) the truth is out there.
My Dad has fallen into the conspiracy theory bubble, which is the main reason I got into this thread. It's funny you bring up the X-Files, because I've been musing recently that the "trust no one" ethos of the show, which my Dad strongly identified with, foreshadowed his descent into conspiratorial thinking. If you're the sort of person that's anti-authority to begin with, hearing that certain power-holding segments of society can't be trusted is a message that resonates with you, regardless of whether it's an other powerful segment telling you that.
It's somewhat similar to how there's a correlation between how strongly someone has to tell you to think for yourself and how little they actually want you to.
Post by: mm1970 on December 07, 2020, 12:07:52 PM
As a side note:My thoughts exactly. "How do you know you are right?"
I'm really shocked by the amount of "two sides to everything" and "How do you know your source is right" advice being given on this thread.
Some information is false and verifiable as such . The earth isn't flat... etc etc. (or does someone on here question this as well?)
Well, my dh has a Qanon high school classmate who posts demonstrably false things on her facebook page, from fake news sites. He just avoids fb in general but...
She posts: "PA only sent out 1.5 million ballots and got over 3 million back! Obviously there was election fraud!"
Dude, PA sent out 1.5 million PRIMARY ballots. For the ELECTION they sent out over 3 million and got a large percentage back. This is verifiable and for god's sake, there are election officials whose literal job is to make sure an election is safe, fair, and secure. They get paid to do that.
Post by: Sibley on December 07, 2020, 12:19:10 PM
People call different news sources fake, who is right?
Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids. One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.
That might be true for some things but not when it comes to fake news. There are studies indicating the elderly are much more susceptible to fake news and share it much more often. Plus older people are more racist per many studies. Not to mention if only people < 55 voted we'd be much likelier to have universal health care and other things.
As far as your Universal Health care statement, that is a sign that older people have a slight better understanding of Individual Rights and or realize things done by the government is usually worse than the free market. With years lived comes wisdom.
HAHAHAHAHA. My mother, who is in poor health, 64 nearly 65, on 15+ mediations daily, etc etc etc is convinced that Medicare for All would result in death panels or something. Oh, and as of 1/1/21 she'll have Medicare for her health insurance.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on December 07, 2020, 12:25:16 PM
People call different news sources fake, who is right?
Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids. One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.
That might be true for some things but not when it comes to fake news. There are studies indicating the elderly are much more susceptible to fake news and share it much more often. Plus older people are more racist per many studies. Not to mention if only people < 55 voted we'd be much likelier to have universal health care and other things.
As far as your Universal Health care statement, that is a sign that older people have a slight better understanding of Individual Rights and or realize things done by the government is usually worse than the free market. With years lived comes wisdom.
HAHAHAHAHA. My mother, who is in poor health, 64 nearly 65, on 15+ mediations daily, etc etc etc is convinced that Medicare for All would result in death panels or something. Oh, and as of 1/1/21 she'll have Medicare for her health insurance.
Older people don't have to get more conservative. I'm older than Sibley's parents and I am so glad Canada has universal health care (not free, I keep saying that since it is an idea that is out there). Our per capita costs are about half that of the US, in line with most European countries, Australia and New Zealand, and we do not have death panels.
Post by: Fish Sweet on December 07, 2020, 01:12:45 PM
I too have parents who believe in BS fake News stories. I personally hate both sides and consider myself an Independent/Libretarian.Excuse me, WHAT?
All of this had me thinking: Is coming out like this what it was like when our parents told their friends that their children were gay or dating someone of another race?
Example:
1970: Mom and Dad sitting around the dinner table with friends. Mom " Yes it is true our Daughter is a Lesbian but we love her anyways. We are praying it is just a phase she is going thru?"
2020: Son and Wife sitting around the dinner table with friends. Son " Yes it is true my Mom and Dad believe that the Clintons were pedifiles and Trump really won the 2nd election except for all of that cheating"
Support whoever you want to support but realize there is so much dirt and filth on both sides.
Thank you MMM for providing a forum to seek help for this matter!
Are you actually comparing being gay to believing that the Clintons were pedophiles? Or that 'coming out' as an (often persecuted) minority is akin to believing in verifiable falsehoods and conspiracy theories? Are you actually describing 'both sides' of those as 'dirt and filth'?
Post by: Sandi_k on December 07, 2020, 01:42:30 PM
If their beliefs were doing them harm in some way, sure. Or if they were materially harming someone else. While collectively I agree that these foolish beliefs are a problem, any individual holder of such incorrect beliefs is basically harmless on their own.
Mask wearing. We have family members who refuse to wear them. And yet we're cast as the "libtards" when asking them to do so if/when we congregate indoors for the holidays.
That belief is NOT "harmless on their own," as epidemiologists are clear that when you wear a mask, you are protecting others.
When *they* wear a mask, they are protecting you. When *they* refuse to do so, it is absolutely material, and harmful
Post by: obstinate on December 07, 2020, 02:02:03 PM
I'm sorry to hear it. I grant that the coronavirus situation is one rare exception where individual foolish beliefs are capable of inflicting grave harm. That being said, it seems a belief like this is the exception, not the norm, and it seems like the blast radius is in many ways limited to those who have similar incorrect beliefs.If their beliefs were doing them harm in some way, sure. Or if they were materially harming someone else. While collectively I agree that these foolish beliefs are a problem, any individual holder of such incorrect beliefs is basically harmless on their own.Mask wearing. We have family members who refuse to wear them. And yet we're cast as the "libtards" when asking them to do so if/when we congregate indoors for the holidays.
That belief is NOT "harmless on their own," as epidemiologists are clear that when you wear a mask, you are protecting others.
When *they* wear a mask, they are protecting you. When *they* refuse to do so, it is absolutely material, and harmful
Post by: Arbitrage on December 07, 2020, 02:43:12 PM
People call different news sources fake, who is right?
Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids. One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.
That might be true for some things but not when it comes to fake news. There are studies indicating the elderly are much more susceptible to fake news and share it much more often. Plus older people are more racist per many studies. Not to mention if only people < 55 voted we'd be much likelier to have universal health care and other things.
As far as your Universal Health care statement, that is a sign that older people have a slight better understanding of Individual Rights and or realize things done by the government is usually worse than the free market. With years lived comes wisdom.
HAHAHAHAHA. My mother, who is in poor health, 64 nearly 65, on 15+ mediations daily, etc etc etc is convinced that Medicare for All would result in death panels or something. Oh, and as of 1/1/21 she'll have Medicare for her health insurance.
Older people don't have to get more conservative. I'm older than Sibley's parents and I am so glad Canada has universal health care (not free, I keep saying that since it is an idea that is out there). Our per capita costs are about half that of the US, in line with most European countries, Australia and New Zealand, and we do not have death panels.
Old people also don't necessarily get more conservative...it can just be that they aren't changing their views, or perhaps are changing them more slowly than the general populace. Much of what is conservative now used to be mainstream. As an example, keep in mind that it wasn't that long ago that the Democratic party didn't support gay marriage. In 2020, many act like anyone who ever had that view is a crazy, backwards, hateful person. The reality is that it could be someone aligned with the views of the left-middle of this country just a decade or two ago, and hadn't changed their views since then.
Post by: tct on December 07, 2020, 02:58:21 PM
You still didn’t define “proper information” and didn’t give any examples. I’m not sure what link you are referring to. I’m taking an arbitrary stance, I’m trying to clarify your proclamation of facts as credible and how you derived at them. It’s rather preposterous to proclaim that your sources or your understanding of the world is factual and others is not. My reference to the devine is about where evidence is more nuanced, we don’t have all the answers and evidence. It’s the same in science where the facts of today become non-facts tomorrow. It could be that a lot of misunderstanding lies in a subjective understanding of morality and ethics. So any evidence that supports your subjective perspective will be selected to validate your point. The evidence is grounded in a perceived fact but it is not necessarily factual, meaning still debatable. I don’t care what your parents believe and what you believe, I’m curious why you are so authoritarian. You seem to pathologize your parents based on their inability to differentiate perceived facts and holding different perspectives than yours. Is it worth to jeopardize your relationships with your parents over something that in the end might be very trivial?Could you define "proper information" for me?How do you know they are wrong and you are right? Maybe you are both wrong.
It's not about wrong or right. In fact without seeing it first hand, can anyone be sure they are wrong or right? It's baseless claims with no credible source. If they formed beliefs based on proper information then that's fine. There are established ways of determining if information is credible. They aren't new. I actually enjoy being open to new ideas.
But seeing them completely lose all fact checking and critical thinking is.... Idk... Sad. I thought maybe some early dementia at first, but everything else is a ok and I doubt 1/8 the country has developed early dementia all at once...
Please give me examples of an established way of determining if the information is credible.
One could argue that a belief in some divinity is baseless, would you call all of these people noncredible therefore having dementia? That's about 90% of humanity (percentile can be desputed).
I'm not the OP, but I personally use two metrics to help evaluate the general "properness" of information - positive incentives and internal consistency. I'll use a hopefully non-controversial example from my past to demonstrate.
I was raised in a very conservative Christian family, and was taught that the account of Genesis was the literal truth of the creation of the world. The universe as a whole was only about 6000 years old, evolutionary theory was a hoax, and a different perspective on the available fossil and historical evidence showed that they could be explained as the products of a world-wide flood. I was a pretty well-read kid growing up, as my parents encouraged the study of all sorts of non-evolutionary science - after all, the natural world is the greatest proof of a creator in and of itself! And, for most of my young adulthood, I believed this.
However, the more I learned about biology, the more confused I got about how evolutionary theory could be a blatant lie. So, I started (covertly!) reading about evolutionary theory, and was shocked at how robust the evidence was for it. So many threads from the sciences that I already understood weaved neatly into place, and the internal consistency of my understanding of the sciences and of evolutionary theory convinced me that it was the most reasonable explanation.
Another, concurrent realization that I had in addition to the self-consistency, was that the idea that evolutionary theory was a big conspiracy seemed amazingly implausible. Conspiracies are hard. There's no incentive for educated biologists to be propping up a shoddy theory, and strong incentive for biblical-minded authors to maintain that there's a biological controversy, as denying evolution is a necessary support for their faith.
I think there are similar dynamics in what @Kroaler is talking about. There are certain segments of the media that are pushing information that doesn't agree with the preponderance of evidence (e.g. rampant U.S. election fraud) and also are incentivised to do so (e.g. their paycheque is linked to propping up Trump, via their brand or by Trump having the ability to fire them). If you're not a part of those echo chambers, it's perfectly reasonable to be "authoritarian" about pushing back on those opinions - they directly threaten trust in the U.S. electoral system and in the idea of free and fair elections. That hardly seems trivial, to me.
I'd also just like to add that just because there are two or more points of view, that doesn't automatically mean the truth lies somewhere in the middle - again, think of evolution and "Teach the Controversy". An enlightened position doesn't entertain hogwash. Sometimes people are completely misinformed, and that's okay, but misinformation needs to be countered.
Post by: Plina on December 07, 2020, 03:47:20 PM
I have a few conspiracy theorists in my family.
Thankfully, they believe in covid and despise Trump, so I don't have to put up with any of this particular brand of conspiracy nonsense right now, which is great.
However, I have a few decades under my belt of navigating conspiracies and handling them with patients, so I'll share my strategies.
First Step: Validate Validate Validate
-This is the first step for all conflict management, make sure their feelings and concerns are validated. Before rejecting their position, take a keen interest in understanding the feelings that are motivating them to seek out this type of information. Validate those feelings.
Ex:
You: "mom, it sounds like you're really afraid of what's going on with the government right now, I want to know what you're feeling most afraid of"
Mom: *says something that makes it clear that she doesn't trust her own democratically elected government*
You: "I totally understand. Politics have gotten so crazy these days, I've had a lot of similar feelings at times. It's really stressful"
Second Step: Explore the things they are probably right about
-There *is* an enormous amount of bias in a lot of media these days, you can cite facts that news outlets used to be more objective, non partisan, you can bond over the fact that watching the 6 o'clock News wasn't a bold political statement back in the day. It *is* hard to just trust the news anymore and that's legitimately stressful.
At this stage it would be really useful to have some solid examples of so-called leftist media bias that bother you. Ex: Obama is a media darling, but no one ever seems to talk about his role in fracking, or something like that.
For me, I really bonded over disliking CNN. I was watching American news early in Trump's presidency, and the coverage on CNN constantly made it sound as if he was moments away from being charged with something, and this was way before that was even close to being a possibility. I so wanted to understand what was going on, but it was so sensationalized it was impossible to parse anything meaningful.
Step Three: Push That Further
-As you build trust, as they feel you understand them and respect their distrust of media and even share it to a degree, you can extend the logic to include their own media.
Show how no media is immune to corruption, look at how they used to trust Fox News implicitly. Open them up to the concept that all news sources are fallible.
Step Four: Start working together to establish what types of sources of information might be valid
-Work collaboratively to determine what fact checking they would be comfortable with, maybe you can become a trusted fact checker?
At the end of the day, these people are scared and looking for reassurance. By rejecting their concerns and supporting the very media they fear, you just add yourself to the things they'll worry about.
They are desperately seeking sources of information they can unquestioningly trust, which is ironic considering the genesis of the problem is not trusting information. But the paradoxical thinking is also your access point for redirecting what they have faith in.
I myself am a former scientist and a medical professional, and my family has been heavily involved in politics my entire life. Because of my extensive experience in the above industries, I don't trust any of them.
I actually genuinely understand where the mistrust comes from in these people, so I don't attack their mistrust, I instead challenge their irrational faith in whatever nonsense media they're consuming. I utilize their own drive to mistrust in order to devalue their news sources instead of trying to promote the value of mine. It's then no longer partisan.
It's extremely uncomfortable to not trust any major sources of information, but that's where I bring them to with baby steps. Either they will eventually find comfort in evaluating each piece of information on their own, or they will be so desperate for a new arbiter of truth that I can slot myself into that position for them, which makes my life easier.
You cants "fact check" anyone unless they believe you to be someone who has access to facts.
I have started listening to an interesting book called Just listen by Mark Goulston. He seems to have a similar approach that you have presented.
Post by: Cassie on December 07, 2020, 04:42:36 PM
Post by: carolina822 on December 07, 2020, 06:18:35 PM
People call different news sources fake, who is right?
Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids. One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.
That might be true for some things but not when it comes to fake news. There are studies indicating the elderly are much more susceptible to fake news and share it much more often. Plus older people are more racist per many studies. Not to mention if only people < 55 voted we'd be much likelier to have universal health care and other things.
As far as your Universal Health care statement, that is a sign that older people have a slight better understanding of Individual Rights and or realize things done by the government is usually worse than the free market. With years lived comes wisdom.
Then those people need to get off of Medicare and try to buy a private insurance policy with 75 years worth of pre-existing conditions.
Post by: Wrenchturner on December 07, 2020, 06:36:05 PM
Lots of people think that McDonald's makes a good cheeseburger. So it's good enough, right?
Part of the problem here is truth-related problems.
Truth:
-is boring
-doesn't often indicate a clear solution
-isn't easily monetized.
So the so-called news becomes less truth based since it doesn't fulfill the business model that it has found success in.
Most issues in society require compromises but that doesn't fulfill the limbic system the way a righteous McTruth might. McTruths are exciting, encourage a righteous stance/activism, and are easily monetized due to the two previous elements.
This is not a partisan issue, both sides are guilty of it although Trump was unique in his willingness to apply this strategy.
The generational problem(how to handle parents...) is like trying to teach an old mechanic how to repair modern fuel injection. Or perhaps worse. Simply put I don't think they have the framework to identify when they're being played. I'm sure young people today will fall prey to the novel bait-and-switches of tomorrow.
I think there are bigger issues involved, such as the conflation of activism with journalism and the general complexity of society which makes it difficult to maintain competence in all the required areas. Buying a burger used to just be a matter of how high your cholesterol was. Now we're supposed to assess the ethics of the company and the supply chain and the environmental footprint and the privilege, and........
Post by: Sibley on December 07, 2020, 08:37:52 PM
Fake news is to real news what a McDonald's cheeseburger is to a homemade cheeseburger.
Lots of people think that McDonald's makes a good cheeseburger. So it's good enough, right?
Part of the problem here is truth-related problems.
Truth:
-is boring
-doesn't often indicate a clear solution
-isn't easily monetized.
So the so-called news becomes less truth based since it doesn't fulfill the business model that it has found success in.
Most issues in society require compromises but that doesn't fulfill the limbic system the way a righteous McTruth might. McTruths are exciting, encourage a righteous stance/activism, and are easily monetized due to the two previous elements.
This is not a partisan issue, both sides are guilty of it although Trump was unique in his willingness to apply this strategy.
The generational problem(how to handle parents...) is like trying to teach an old mechanic how to repair modern fuel injection. Or perhaps worse. Simply put I don't think they have the framework to identify when they're being played. I'm sure young people today will fall prey to the novel bait-and-switches of tomorrow.
I think there are bigger issues involved, such as the conflation of activism with journalism and the general complexity of society which makes it difficult to maintain competence in all the required areas. Buying a burger used to just be a matter of how high your cholesterol was. Now we're supposed to assess the ethics of the company and the supply chain and the environmental footprint and the privilege, and........
Yep. Plus, throw in health issues or simply natural changes related to age which make people more susceptible, and perfect storm. Its understandable, and frustrating as all heck. Because then they make choices that only make their problems worse and can't begin to understand that.
Post by: ender on December 08, 2020, 07:50:36 AM
As a side note:
I'm really shocked by the amount of "two sides to everything" and "How do you know your source is right" advice being given on this thread.
Some information is false and verifiable as such . The earth isn't flat... etc etc. (or does someone on here question this as well?)
While facts may be true vs false (which is pretty much by definition for "fact"), certainly interpretations of facts can be right/wrong.
There are certainly information which is more reported or wildly known and ergo more "true" than others.
Many people shamelessly exploit statistics as "facts" when it's an interpretation of data which can very well be biased.
Which facts are created is often the result of bias.
Everyone creating facts has motivations and ambition.
In research, money comes from somewhere and that somewhere is a reflection of beliefs.
In science, which hypotheses get explored/tested is a result of bias.
Not all research is true (I've read way too many "peer reviewed" papers in my field that are... well, obviously wrong. Just because something to published somewhere doesn't imply it's actually correct).
Most fact reporting/generation has funding implications - whether private or public.
Some people blatantly attempt to misrepresent information/facts for their own gain.
People have different underlying respect for authority figures and the truth of what they say.
I could go on and on here. The point is, "facts" are not necessarily a clear cut bludgeon even if they are true.
This doesn't mean "whatever I want to be true is true" but it seems a bit crazy to me how many people seem to feel they have cornered some Truth and objective understanding of reality. There really aren't unbiased sources of truth/facts (if you really want to get into it, the debate in philosophy around epistemology has been ongoing for millenia).
Anyone who takes any report, fact, or research at face value without understanding the complex system of biases went into generating it is... naive. At some level all facts are applications of bias.
Post by: ctuser1 on December 08, 2020, 08:35:42 AM
I could go on and on here. The point is, "facts" are not necessarily a clear cut bludgeon even if they are true.
Your entire post can probably be summarized as "being 100% certain of anything is stupid".
Stated another way - anyone acting with an unshakable certainty in a certain set of beliefs, especially those of conspiratorial nature, are by the very logical definition of your setup - "naive", as you say in your post.
Therefore, the OP is still left with parents who are acting with certainty on what can only be defined as a shaky foundation of reality. Being depressed and anxious about some fictitious "Dominion Conspiracy" still counts as "acting".
Post by: ender on December 08, 2020, 08:37:07 AM
I could go on and on here. The point is, "facts" are not necessarily a clear cut bludgeon even if they are true.
Your entire post can probably be summarized as "being 100% certain of anything is stupid".
Stated another way - anyone acting with an unshakable certainty in a certain set of beliefs, especially those of conspiratorial nature, are by the very logical definition of your setup - naive.
Therefore, the OP is still left with parents who are acting with certainty on what can only be defined as a shaky foundation of reality. Being depressed and anxious about some fictitious "Dominion Conspiracy" still counts as "acting".
That's certainly one interpretation of what I wrote.
Post by: ctuser1 on December 08, 2020, 09:01:01 AM
I could go on and on here. The point is, "facts" are not necessarily a clear cut bludgeon even if they are true.
Your entire post can probably be summarized as "being 100% certain of anything is stupid".
Stated another way - anyone acting with an unshakable certainty in a certain set of beliefs, especially those of conspiratorial nature, are by the very logical definition of your setup - naive.
Therefore, the OP is still left with parents who are acting with certainty on what can only be defined as a shaky foundation of reality. Being depressed and anxious about some fictitious "Dominion Conspiracy" still counts as "acting".
That's certainly one interpretation of what I wrote.
You are questioning if the axioms or the rules of interpretations can be applied 100% reliably in a logical system. Per my (rather limited and somewhat far removed since I left college) understanding, there are a couple of other entire classes of epistemological issues with logical systems. A guy named Alan Cobham (not the aviator, whose wiki page comes up when I search) did some interesting work with philosophical implications like "Can Truth be considered Truth if it is not practically computable". And then there is the issue of logical omniscience where humans interact with platonic mathematical logic.
The above topic is very close to my heart and if I had no want for money I will probably spend all my hours trying to disentangle issues with the epistemological systems that humans can currently access.
But none of the above changes the on the ground fact that the OP has parents who cares not a zero iota about the validity or invalidity of logic systems. They are dead sure of something - rather questionable (has to be, if you are invoking the standards that you raise) - and that has the potential of causing them harm.
Your post seemed to imply that the OP should accept his parents paranoia and stand aside without intervening. I'd like to disagree if that was indeed your implication. Hence my post.
Post by: ender on December 08, 2020, 09:38:31 AM
Your post seemed to imply that the OP should accept his parents paranoia and stand aside without intervening. I'd like to disagree if that was indeed your implication. Hence my post.
When did it imply that? Did you not read the post I explicitly quoted?
Post by: ctuser1 on December 08, 2020, 09:48:03 AM
Your post seemed to imply that the OP should accept his parents paranoia and stand aside without intervening. I'd like to disagree if that was indeed your implication. Hence my post.
When did it imply that? Did you not read the post I explicitly quoted?
1. OP was trying to figure out what to do with conspiracy theory believing parents. There were questions whether conspiracy theories are really conspiracy theories and should be questioned by OP.
2. He posted, in context of #1 that certain facts, like "earth is flat" is verifiable.
3. #2 is the post you explicitly quoted, and questioned verifiability and interpretation of facts.
In the context, don't you think there is an implication that you are attempting to dissuade OP from #1? At least that is how I read it. What is the point of raising epistemological issues in this specific thread otherwise?
Post by: ender on December 08, 2020, 11:00:40 AM
Your post seemed to imply that the OP should accept his parents paranoia and stand aside without intervening. I'd like to disagree if that was indeed your implication. Hence my post.
When did it imply that? Did you not read the post I explicitly quoted?
1. OP was trying to figure out what to do with conspiracy theory believing parents. There were questions whether conspiracy theories are really conspiracy theories and should be questioned by OP.
2. He posted, in context of #1 that certain facts, like "earth is flat" is verifiable.
3. #2 is the post you explicitly quoted, and questioned verifiability and interpretation of facts.
In the context, don't you think there is an implication that you are attempting to dissuade OP from #1? At least that is how I read it. What is the point of raising epistemological issues in this specific thread otherwise?
Sigh.
The OP is trying to understand "How to handle parents who believe fake news."
Unless you (and OP) think that the people in the OP are completely irrational and insane -- in which case a different approach is needed -- in order to make sense of any conversation you need to actually understand why people believe what they believe.
Given the OP calls them "otherwise smart people" it seems to rule out the irrational/insane angle.
Which means, people in the OP's world have a different understanding of what "facts" are. Or, another way to say it, a different interpretation of data/reality/whatever.
The problem that OP is facing is trying to understand is that from his perspective, facts are 100% incontrovertible and obvious. This means the parents (and other family) are completely irrational. But they've also said they are, and I quote, "otherwise smart people."
It means the problem relates to interpretation of facts or even what facts are relevant. From their perspective, things make sense, which means if you legitimately want discussion vs appeasement, you have to start thinking of this whole domain as epistemological.
Within that area, there are two different types of problems. Sometimes, facts are just... wrong. Sometimes, and I think far more often it's this problem - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant - where a fact is pedantically true in isolation but doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion when considered with the remainder of the elephant.
In that second case if you want to have productive conversations with someone who is convinced the entire elephant is the trunk, you have to acknowledge that their facts or you will never make a productive conversation. People, in general, react very quickly to not feeling validated/understood.
A lot of people can't empathize with, for example, people who think the election was completely stolen or otherwise had a lot of fraud. The thing is, there were mistakes and issues with the election. Republicans have had a field day making those issues a much bigger deal. But if you want to talk with someone on that topic, the common "there wasn't election fraud" talking line just invalidates an entire perspective that is based - at least originally - on something that both people presumably agree on.
Common ground goes a long way towards building trust, which is what you need if you actually want to change someone's belief.
Post by: partgypsy on December 08, 2020, 11:21:40 AM
Post by: MoseyingAlong on December 08, 2020, 12:41:59 PM
My mom was from the Chicago area and I remember 40 years ago, she and my dad "joking" about the Cook County mantra of "Vote Early and Often."
Instead of denying there is any election fraud, I think it's more productive to agree that there should not be any and to focus on how to detect and prevent it. When someone declares that there isn't any, they lose a lot of credibility to me.
I've had people tell me about completing the ballot for relatives with dementia and mailing it in. That to me is fraud but they don't see it that way.
Post by: GuitarStv on December 08, 2020, 01:35:32 PM
I've had people tell me about completing the ballot for relatives with dementia and mailing it in. That to me is fraud but they don't see it that way.
So report them. That's clearly fraud.
Post by: ctuser1 on December 08, 2020, 01:40:27 PM
Unless you (and OP) think that the people in the OP are completely irrational and insane -- in which case a different approach is needed -- in order to make sense of any conversation you need to actually understand why people believe what they believe.This statement only works if you make it applicable to everyone.
If OP's parents are claiming 100% actionable certainty based on conspiracy theories, then they indeed are irrational - not sure about insane.
If OP is claiming there is absolutely 0 fraud in the election, then he is irrational.
Given the OP calls them "otherwise smart people" it seems to rule out the irrational/insane angle.Again - another tautology.
Which means, people in the OP's world have a different understanding of what "facts" are. Or, another way to say it, a different interpretation of data/reality/whatever.
The problem that OP is facing is trying to understand is that from his perspective, facts are 100% incontrovertible and obvious. This means the parents (and other family) are completely irrational. But they've also said they are, and I quote, "otherwise smart people."Anyone calling one set of facts "100% incontrovertible" is wrong. If OP is saying "there is no election fraud" - he would be wrong. Heck we know there were two Trump voters arrested in PA for trying to commit election fraud.
Similarly, if OP's parents are saying "there was no attempt at disenfranchising inner city blacks by a certain political party" - they would also be wrong.
But, assuming you would like to apply this logic to all actors in this conversation - again this much is obvious.
It means the problem relates to interpretation of facts or even what facts are relevant. From their perspective, things make sense, which means if you legitimately want discussion vs appeasement, you have to start thinking of this whole domain as epistemological.One sided "want" of discussion is generally fruitless. Do both sides want discussion? i.e. can we have a broad discussion about "Fraud" and "Apartheid" both, together? Else you fall for the rightwing propaganda trick that shifts the overton window on one side and institutes institutional Apartheid and Disenfranchisement in the name of combating fraud.
Please note that the voter participation rate of whites and non-whites still have not caught up in this election. So the centuries long disenfranchisement has still not disappeared. And you want to engage in a discussion how inner-city blacks in Atlanta/Milwaukee/Detroit committed fraud?? Discussion only works if it is both sided and in good faith.
Within that area, there are two different types of problems. Sometimes, facts are just... wrong. Sometimes, and I think far more often it's this problem - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant - where a fact is pedantically true in isolation but doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion when considered with the remainder of the elephant.
In that second case if you want to have productive conversations with someone who is convinced the entire elephant is the trunk, you have to acknowledge that their facts or you will never make a productive conversation. People, in general, react very quickly to not feeling validated/understood.
A lot of people can't empathize with, for example, people who think the election was completely stolen or otherwise had a lot of fraud. The thing is, there were mistakes and issues with the election. Republicans have had a field day making those issues a much bigger deal. But if you want to talk with someone on that topic, the common "there wasn't election fraud" talking line just invalidates an entire perspective that is based - at least originally - on something that both people presumably agree on.
Common ground goes a long way towards building trust, which is what you need if you actually want to change someone's belief.
I don't know your political persuasion. However, your approach reminds me of what frustrates me about the center-left in the US politics today. You are thinking that one side in this "discussion" has the entire onus to "understand", almost to the point of "pandering". The statement - "there wasn't election fraud" is just as incorrect as "there wasn't any black voter suppression" - no more and no less.
OP is dealing with parents, not a political opponent. So his approach needs to differ significantly. However, when someone talks about "civil wars" based on the election results, they are not doing very well. I don't think his main problem is that the parents believe in conspiracy theories - it is that they either obsess over it or may - in future - take actions that will hurt themselves. I am not sure you can understand/convert anyone in that mental state - but you can sure intervene to take the worse edges off sometimes.
----------------
This last bit is not meant as a criticism. But please consider if you are really being able to empathize with everyone here. Inner city blacks have historically had their vote suppressed. In the last few years - a lot of effort/money was put in place to allow them to participate in democracy. Some of those efforts are resulting in them having a higher say now + the covid related absentee ballots allowed - for example - a single mother with 2 jobs to finally vote this year. And what is the reaction from the Trumpy rightwing whites? That the inner city Detroit blacks committed fraud! I am not black, neither do I live in the inner city - but I felt pretty p*ssed off hearing that.
I don't think it will be very productive for OP to have a "discussion" with his parents about this side of the proverbial elephant that you speak of.
Post by: ender on December 08, 2020, 02:06:45 PM
I'm just someone who has parents and other relatives who - like OP's parents - are way off in the deep end of Trump news media/conspiracies. This is how I approach it.
You can do whatever you want @ctuser1 with your parents if they also believe completely batshit crazy things. Write them off if you want. Some of us can't and are forced to deal with conversations around this topic regularly with our family. Some of us only have family that are off in this deep end. The last time my father and I talked, he spoke about bombing China as a punishment for Covid. I have extended family who post conspiracy theories about the election on Facebook constantly.
I'm glad you don't have to deal with the practical reality that sometimes, people we love and care about believe completely absurd things.
It would certainly be a lot easier for me to just adopt a scorched earth policy here, as you're suggesting, and never engage with them.
Post by: ctuser1 on December 08, 2020, 02:20:11 PM
It would certainly be a lot easier for me to just adopt a scorched earth policy here, as you're suggesting, and never engage with them.
Sorry - I did not mean to imply that you should ever write off family. I personally think there is a middle ground where you do not validate the conspiracy theories, maybe agree to disagree, while always caring for them. Maybe they will think of you as a looney liberal cousin - family but a little weird - or something.
But you are right that I haven't dealt with the extent of the problem that you are describing. It is possible that I can't see why my suggestion is not practical in more extreme situations due to this.
Post by: Psychstache on December 08, 2020, 02:27:52 PM
Sorry - I did not mean to imply that you should ever write off family.
OT, but just want to disagree and say that there are absolutely reasonable and valid reasons to cut people out of your life even if they are family.
Post by: sherr on December 08, 2020, 02:37:10 PM
I've had people tell me about completing the ballot for relatives with dementia and mailing it in. That to me is fraud but they don't see it that way.
So report them. That's clearly fraud.
+1. Like many facts, this is not open to debate. That's fraud, and the people who do it deserve to be convicted of fraud and all that that entails. Report them.
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on December 09, 2020, 10:01:28 AM
Sorry. We’ve had about a decade of folks “speaking truth” to (non)power. And what have been the results? In the end, a strategy needs needs to be compared to the ends it produces. So where are we culturally with all this “truth telling?” Looks to me like the situation just before a divorce. Or a civil war.It's a lot more interesting, and frankly satisfying, to accept people as they are. Again, discussion is not agreement. And admittedly I do find teasing out why people think the way they do to be fairly interesting.
If your goal is to be entertained by other people, sure. If your goal is to help the people you love, and to help humanity, the POV you support is not useful.
Sometimes the best strategy to approach people is to simply shut your trap and listen. I know that’s not popular in circles where ego is all the rage, but the strategy happens to work. And yes, it is often interesting and sometimes very entertaining.
Post by: GuitarStv on December 09, 2020, 11:09:00 AM
Sorry. We’ve had about a decade of folks “speaking truth” to (non)power. And what have been the results? In the end, a strategy needs needs to be compared to the ends it produces. So where are we culturally with all this “truth telling?” Looks to me like the situation just before a divorce. Or a civil war.It's a lot more interesting, and frankly satisfying, to accept people as they are. Again, discussion is not agreement. And admittedly I do find teasing out why people think the way they do to be fairly interesting.
If your goal is to be entertained by other people, sure. If your goal is to help the people you love, and to help humanity, the POV you support is not useful.
Sometimes the best strategy to approach people is to simply shut your trap and listen. I know that’s not popular in circles where ego is all the rage, but the strategy happens to work. And yes, it is often interesting and sometimes very entertaining.
. . . he said, loudly and abrasively voicing his objections.
:D
Post by: Wrenchturner on December 09, 2020, 02:55:40 PM
Sorry. We’ve had about a decade of folks “speaking truth” to (non)power. And what have been the results? In the end, a strategy needs needs to be compared to the ends it produces. So where are we culturally with all this “truth telling?” Looks to me like the situation just before a divorce. Or a civil war.It's a lot more interesting, and frankly satisfying, to accept people as they are. Again, discussion is not agreement. And admittedly I do find teasing out why people think the way they do to be fairly interesting.
If your goal is to be entertained by other people, sure. If your goal is to help the people you love, and to help humanity, the POV you support is not useful.
Sometimes the best strategy to approach people is to simply shut your trap and listen. I know that’s not popular in circles where ego is all the rage, but the strategy happens to work. And yes, it is often interesting and sometimes very entertaining.
I have a family member who's had an eating disorder her whole life, been to rehab twice for alcohol, and barely keeps the wheels on her life. I don't lecture her on wearing masks. Some people have bigger problems to face.
Post by: Adventine on December 09, 2020, 06:59:23 PM
It's lengthy, but here are the best parts, in my opinion. Some emphasis mine, some are Captain Awkward's own.
"Letter Writer, you are not alone, the people who wrote me similar letters are not alone, none of us are alone, and nobody can fight or fix this alone by being pure of heart and sure of word, is what I think. We’re going to need sustained, widespread policies and content moderation tools and journalism standards and massive antitrust actions that force lucrative platforms to stop the toxic sludge at the source because it literally gets too unprofitable to be a bunch of fascism-enabling ubrovillains. Some people’s hearts can’t be fixed with better interpersonal communications or the tempting Sorkiny fantasy that, deep down, everybody wants the same things and can be reached with the right conversation, or, in Aaron’s case, stirring-monologue-with-cheesy-music-and-hallway-power-walk. “Everyone” clearly does not want the same things, people are dying, if our shittiest relatives want us to believe in a shared inherent human decency, I’m all about it, but I’m gonna need them to stop keeping theirs “deep down” next to the oft-mentioned “racist bone” that is 100% definitely somewhere in their bodies."
[...]
"But in my opinion and experience, family dynamics like yours and parents like your mom do not change unless the power dynamics change, and sometimes the reminder that you could walk away if you really had to is the only thing that makes it safe or even possible to keep engaging. “Deep breaths, I’m going to take it one visit at a time, and if it’s terrible, I’m allowed to leave and try again another time” isn’t “Fuck you, parents, who needs ’em anyhow,” its “I am trying desperately to stay connected to people I love, in spite of everything.” Abusive parents are not created by disobedient children, there’s no amount of love and duty and compliance that turns an unkind person into a kind one, and sometimes there is no safe distance at which you can coexist. This is true in romantic relationships, this is true in friendships, and this is true in families."
Post by: ministashy on December 10, 2020, 04:14:21 AM
I'm sensing a certain bias from what you deduced from my post.I'm not saying that you're not neutral - if anything, your position seems to be *extremely* neutral, and that confuses me. To the OP's original points, do you disagree that there was a secret military operation in Germany, for example? Your initial post about the possibility of both the OP and their parents being both wrong makes it sound like you're willing to entertain that possibility for the sake of neutrality, whether or not there's any evidence for it.
Again, I'm neutral but you want to portray me that I'm not, and I somehow have to take a stance in defense of neutrality. Your story is unconvincing in a scope of highly complex understanding where authority is. Your assumption that the US elections are somewhat axiomatically perfect is dumbfounding. Historically speaking, there is a massive evidence of dysfunctional methodologies involved, and there is plenty of room for advancing the current voting system. To take a higher ground and to proclaim it as axiomatic system is authoritarian. What's next, are you going to claim that the so called democracy has no flaws simply by aligning yourself to either left or right? That is in principal highly undemocratic reasoning, to choose to see flaws only in one ideology. No ideology should have authority as all ideologies are evolving concepts and they have hundreds of manifestations historically and contemporaneously. We can debate on certain traits within ideologies, liberal, conservative, social democratic, etc. and how they manifest themselves and how they are being perceived and interpreted in different parts of the world. But none of them have delivered on all fronts for the benefit of all. And my neutrality is highly entrenched in the benefit of all. If your argument is that you only want to benefit your ideology, then I have no quandary with you, as I'm not interested where you stand and how that shapes your perception of facts and evidence.
Just so it's clear, too, I'm not saying and haven't said that the U.S. electoral system is perfect, and can't be improved. I must have not wrote clearly if that's how you read it - my apologies.
Fair enough. Let me explain what I meant by "neutrality". It seems to be impossible to find time and resources to validate truth in the barrage of information we are exposed to on daily basis. What did strike me the most was the propensity of the OP to pathologize his own parents. It could be that he is right and they are wrong in some particular instance. I can't really arbitrate who is right or wrong. I sense proclivity to taking a higher ground by the OP, which in the larger picture him pathologizing his own parents or some group of people over some unverified or verified facts is rather alarming. This exponential polarization over some weaponized facts and hyperbolized labels is very destructive and polarize the society more, killing the due process of rational debate and Socratean thinking, ultimately in the end feeding the frenzy of the Hegelian dialectic. Very sad.
If anyone isn't sure, this is a great example of "Gaslighting".
Also 'Sealioning": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning)
Post by: ctuser1 on December 10, 2020, 04:40:38 AM
Sorry. We’ve had about a decade of folks “speaking truth” to (non)power. And what have been the results? In the end, a strategy needs needs to be compared to the ends it produces. So where are we culturally with all this “truth telling?” Looks to me like the situation just before a divorce. Or a civil war.It's a lot more interesting, and frankly satisfying, to accept people as they are. Again, discussion is not agreement. And admittedly I do find teasing out why people think the way they do to be fairly interesting.
If your goal is to be entertained by other people, sure. If your goal is to help the people you love, and to help humanity, the POV you support is not useful.
Sometimes the best strategy to approach people is to simply shut your trap and listen. I know that’s not popular in circles where ego is all the rage, but the strategy happens to work. And yes, it is often interesting and sometimes very entertaining.
I have a family member who's had an eating disorder her whole life, been to rehab twice for alcohol, and barely keeps the wheels on her life. I don't lecture her on wearing masks. Some people have bigger problems to face.
Her wearing a mask is not about her problems. It is about her not giving others her problems (i.e. viral load in this case).
She, of course, should have every right to either participate or not participate in the society. That is freedom. If she chooses to exercise that freedom and not participate in society, she should forego using the common resources afforded to her by the society (e.g. roads, common areas, other taxpayer funded facilities etc. etc. etc.). To the extent that she wants to use public resources, she should be mindful of not infringing on other's freedoms in a reckless and wanton manner. She is not the only person in the society with freedoms, other's have freedoms and rights too!
This basic concept of personal responsibility was very common in American culture till about 1970's, and was replaced with freeloading in the libertarian circles starting about the time of Ayn Rand. Not sure how it was/is in Canada.
Post by: former player on December 10, 2020, 05:33:22 AM
You are of course entirely right about personal responsibility. But you seem not to be making allowances for someone with significant, life-long mental health disabilities such a Wrenchturner's family member. Allowances are made for people with physical disabilities which make mask-wearing difficult or impossible, it is only equitable to make equivalent allowances for people with mental disabilities. Sadly the social and practical difficulties for people with mental disabilities are too often invisible and ignored.Sorry. We’ve had about a decade of folks “speaking truth” to (non)power. And what have been the results? In the end, a strategy needs needs to be compared to the ends it produces. So where are we culturally with all this “truth telling?” Looks to me like the situation just before a divorce. Or a civil war.It's a lot more interesting, and frankly satisfying, to accept people as they are. Again, discussion is not agreement. And admittedly I do find teasing out why people think the way they do to be fairly interesting.
If your goal is to be entertained by other people, sure. If your goal is to help the people you love, and to help humanity, the POV you support is not useful.
Sometimes the best strategy to approach people is to simply shut your trap and listen. I know that’s not popular in circles where ego is all the rage, but the strategy happens to work. And yes, it is often interesting and sometimes very entertaining.
I have a family member who's had an eating disorder her whole life, been to rehab twice for alcohol, and barely keeps the wheels on her life. I don't lecture her on wearing masks. Some people have bigger problems to face.
Her wearing a mask is not about her problems. It is about her not giving others her problems (i.e. viral load in this case).
She, of course, should have every right to either participate or not participate in the society. That is freedom. If she chooses to exercise that freedom and not participate in society, she should forego using the common resources afforded to her by the society (e.g. roads, common areas, other taxpayer funded facilities etc. etc. etc.). To the extent that she wants to use public resources, she should be mindful of not infringing on other's freedoms in a reckless and wanton manner. She is not the only person in the society with freedoms, other's have freedoms and rights too!
This basic concept of personal responsibility was very common in American culture till about 1970's, and was replaced with freeloading in the libertarian circles starting about the time of Ayn Rand. Not sure how it was/is in Canada.
Post by: ctuser1 on December 10, 2020, 06:59:29 AM
Her wearing a mask is not about her problems. It is about her not giving others her problems (i.e. viral load in this case).You are of course entirely right about personal responsibility. But you seem not to be making allowances for someone with significant, life-long mental health disabilities such a Wrenchturner's family member. Allowances are made for people with physical disabilities which make mask-wearing difficult or impossible, it is only equitable to make equivalent allowances for people with mental disabilities. Sadly the social and practical difficulties for people with mental disabilities are too often invisible and ignored.
She, of course, should have every right to either participate or not participate in the society. That is freedom. If she chooses to exercise that freedom and not participate in society, she should forego using the common resources afforded to her by the society (e.g. roads, common areas, other taxpayer funded facilities etc. etc. etc.). To the extent that she wants to use public resources, she should be mindful of not infringing on other's freedoms in a reckless and wanton manner. She is not the only person in the society with freedoms, other's have freedoms and rights too!
This basic concept of personal responsibility was very common in American culture till about 1970's, and was replaced with freeloading in the libertarian circles starting about the time of Ayn Rand. Not sure how it was/is in Canada.
You're right, a compassionate society must make allowances for disability.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on January 06, 2021, 03:46:37 PM
Her wearing a mask is not about her problems. It is about her not giving others her problems (i.e. viral load in this case).You are of course entirely right about personal responsibility. But you seem not to be making allowances for someone with significant, life-long mental health disabilities such a Wrenchturner's family member. Allowances are made for people with physical disabilities which make mask-wearing difficult or impossible, it is only equitable to make equivalent allowances for people with mental disabilities. Sadly the social and practical difficulties for people with mental disabilities are too often invisible and ignored.
She, of course, should have every right to either participate or not participate in the society. That is freedom. If she chooses to exercise that freedom and not participate in society, she should forego using the common resources afforded to her by the society (e.g. roads, common areas, other taxpayer funded facilities etc. etc. etc.). To the extent that she wants to use public resources, she should be mindful of not infringing on other's freedoms in a reckless and wanton manner. She is not the only person in the society with freedoms, other's have freedoms and rights too!
This basic concept of personal responsibility was very common in American culture till about 1970's, and was replaced with freeloading in the libertarian circles starting about the time of Ayn Rand. Not sure how it was/is in Canada.
You're right, a compassionate society must make allowances for disability.
Bump - So my parents are at the trump rally at capital hill.
Post by: GuitarStv on January 06, 2021, 03:55:59 PM
Her wearing a mask is not about her problems. It is about her not giving others her problems (i.e. viral load in this case).You are of course entirely right about personal responsibility. But you seem not to be making allowances for someone with significant, life-long mental health disabilities such a Wrenchturner's family member. Allowances are made for people with physical disabilities which make mask-wearing difficult or impossible, it is only equitable to make equivalent allowances for people with mental disabilities. Sadly the social and practical difficulties for people with mental disabilities are too often invisible and ignored.
She, of course, should have every right to either participate or not participate in the society. That is freedom. If she chooses to exercise that freedom and not participate in society, she should forego using the common resources afforded to her by the society (e.g. roads, common areas, other taxpayer funded facilities etc. etc. etc.). To the extent that she wants to use public resources, she should be mindful of not infringing on other's freedoms in a reckless and wanton manner. She is not the only person in the society with freedoms, other's have freedoms and rights too!
This basic concept of personal responsibility was very common in American culture till about 1970's, and was replaced with freeloading in the libertarian circles starting about the time of Ayn Rand. Not sure how it was/is in Canada.
You're right, a compassionate society must make allowances for disability.
Bump - So my parents are at the trump rally at capital hill.
Did they storm the buildings?
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on January 06, 2021, 04:02:13 PM
The fact that they drove so far and took off work to be there is concerning though.
Maybe by February all this will be over.... I hope so anyway.
Post by: SwordGuy on January 06, 2021, 04:05:59 PM
Bump - So my parents are at the trump rally at capital hill.
There's enough social media and selfies and security cameras that if they've broken federal laws they're likely to be caught and prosecuted.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 06, 2021, 04:48:40 PM
Bump - So my parents are at the trump rally at capital hill.
There's enough social media and selfies and security cameras that if they've broken federal laws they're likely to be caught and prosecuted.
And there is always Covid to make these things worse.
Post by: SwordGuy on January 06, 2021, 04:52:03 PM
Bump - So my parents are at the trump rally at capital hill.
There's enough social media and selfies and security cameras that if they've broken federal laws they're likely to be caught and prosecuted.
And there is always Covid to make these things worse.
Sorry to be such a downer...
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 06, 2021, 04:53:36 PM
Bump - So my parents are at the trump rally at capital hill.
There's enough social media and selfies and security cameras that if they've broken federal laws they're likely to be caught and prosecuted.
And there is always Covid to make these things worse.
Sorry to be such a downer...
Downer is my base status these days. Sorry.
Post by: Imma on January 06, 2021, 05:06:22 PM
Post by: SwordGuy on January 06, 2021, 05:15:59 PM
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.
So were the Nazis.
See, here are some nice, fun loving folks on a picnic after a hard spell of duty at Auschwitz. Just ordinary folks committing genocide at work...
Not a defense in my book.
Post by: Imma on January 06, 2021, 05:50:19 PM
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.
So were the Nazis.
See, here are some nice, fun loving folks on a picnic after a hard spell of duty at Auschwitz. Just ordinary folks committing genocide at work...
Not a defense in my book.
Yes, so were the nazi's. I'm from that corner of the world. My family were not nazi supporters, some actively fought nazi occupation. But nazi supporters were often ordinary people with ordinary problems who were ignored by politicians. It's always the same. That's why we should be very aware of these movements, because it can go terribly wrong. But we should also offer these people a real alternative, not just a bunch of words.
My great-grandparents shared a house with a family who were actual Nazi Party members - they had shared that house for years before the nazi's emerged, they didn't seek them out One of their sons I think even died fighting for the Germans in the east. My grandmother always felt very sorry for them as they were clearly brainwashed.
All of my grandparents had great compassion for the brainwashed group, even though they hated the fanatical nazi's. They saw young boys of their age serving in the Wehrmacht and knew that had they been born in a different place, it would have been them. They knew the kind of propaganda those kids had been exposed to.
The current situation is also the result of decades of lies, propaganda and political extremism. I don't see a big difference between religious and political cults. They both suck people in and they lose their minds. Trump is just another leader of a Doomsday cult to me.
Post by: Sibley on January 06, 2021, 06:59:59 PM
Post by: Adventine on January 06, 2021, 07:01:49 PM
Post by: bmjohnson35 on January 06, 2021, 07:13:20 PM
It's surprising we are only hearing about a single fatality. The police were in an impossible situation. Questioned about how so many protestors got so far into the capital. Under extreme critical review for any potential signs of obsessive force, considering all of the negative publicity in recent times. A no-win difficult situation.
Post by: bacchi on January 06, 2021, 07:23:11 PM
I am not calling my parents tonight. And possibly not for the next few days either. I just can't deal with it.
Same. I fear what they'll say and how I'll have to dance around to avoid discussing it with them.
Post by: SwordGuy on January 06, 2021, 07:47:18 PM
I am not calling my parents tonight. And possibly not for the next few days either. I just can't deal with it.
Same. I fear what they'll say and how I'll have to dance around to avoid discussing it with them.
I was just bluntly factual with mine. "You are saying things that are not true. I'll be glad to provide evidence to back that up. And I'm ashamed that you are being racists. You raised me better than that. Please do not talk like that in my presence again."
It was never appreciated but after a couple of times they got the message and mostly kept their mouth shut.
Post by: Luck12 on January 06, 2021, 08:29:33 PM
It's surprising we are only hearing about a single fatality. The police were in an impossible situation. Questioned about how so many protestors got so far into the capital. Under extreme critical review for any potential signs of obsessive force, considering all of the negative publicity in recent times. A no-win difficult situation.
Naw Fuck the police! Funny how they refrain from using excessive force when white right wing terrorists breach the Capitol in a baseless coup but happily tear gassed and beat the shit out of peaceful protestors and journalists last year.
Post by: OtherJen on January 06, 2021, 08:38:46 PM
It's surprising we are only hearing about a single fatality. The police were in an impossible situation. Questioned about how so many protestors got so far into the capital. Under extreme critical review for any potential signs of obsessive force, considering all of the negative publicity in recent times. A no-win difficult situation.
Naw Fuck the police! Funny how they refrain from using excessive force when white right wing terrorists breach the Capitol in a baseless coup but happily tear gassed and beat the shit out of peaceful protestors and journalists last year.
^^^THIS. And last summer's protestors didn't even storm and deface the Capitol.
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 06, 2021, 09:16:06 PM
Post by: One Noisy Cat on January 07, 2021, 05:33:52 AM
My parents were stupid enough to believe the lies of the “New York Times”, which let Jayson Blair make up stories because he had a black skin. I left them in their delusions
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on January 07, 2021, 07:15:17 AM
I am not calling my parents tonight. And possibly not for the next few days either. I just can't deal with it.
Same. I fear what they'll say and how I'll have to dance around to avoid discussing it with them.
I was just bluntly factual with mine. "You are saying things that are not true. I'll be glad to provide evidence to back that up. And I'm ashamed that you are being racists. You raised me better than that. Please do not talk like that in my presence again."
It was never appreciated but after a couple of times they got the message and mostly kept their mouth shut.
I tried the "that isn't true and can provide evidence" route.
But if they genuinely believe everything but their source is false it doesn't matter.
I find it improbable that the 40 stories and versions of events all match each other and are wrong compared to their single source that contradicts the other 40 or so. Buuuut - it's a lost cause. I'm glad that worked for you.
I also said the we need to stop talking about politics or not talk any more.
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 07, 2021, 07:16:38 AM
“Who says protests have to be peaceful and polite?” Chris Cuomo, CNN June 2020
My parents were stupid enough to believe the lies of the “New York Times”, which let Jayson Blair make up stories because he had a black skin. I left them in their delusions
Yeah totally the same thing, JFC
Post by: bmjohnson35 on January 07, 2021, 07:34:14 AM
It's surprising we are only hearing about a single fatality. The police were in an impossible situation. Questioned about how so many protestors got so far into the capital. Under extreme critical review for any potential signs of obsessive force, considering all of the negative publicity in recent times. A no-win difficult situation.
Naw Fuck the police! Funny how they refrain from using excessive force when white right wing terrorists breach the Capitol in a baseless coup but happily tear gassed and beat the shit out of peaceful protestors and journalists last year.
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or really believe this. Two wrongs would make a right? Would you had preferred more injuries and fatalities?
I can see that a more forceful response would have been justified, but I still think the least lost of life is the preferred outcome, whether it's demonstrators of Pro-Trump or BLM. I do hope the individuals arrested, who stormed into and occupied the capital, get the maximum sentence possible.
Post by: sherr on January 07, 2021, 07:43:03 AM
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.
I know it's been said before, but it deserves to be said again.
Terrorists are all just "normal folk" who have been brainwashed into becoming extremists. That's why the Republican / Trumper / conspiracy theorist brainwashing machine is so dangerous.
Post by: GuitarStv on January 07, 2021, 07:59:03 AM
It's surprising we are only hearing about a single fatality. The police were in an impossible situation. Questioned about how so many protestors got so far into the capital. Under extreme critical review for any potential signs of obsessive force, considering all of the negative publicity in recent times. A no-win difficult situation.
Naw Fuck the police! Funny how they refrain from using excessive force when white right wing terrorists breach the Capitol in a baseless coup but happily tear gassed and beat the shit out of peaceful protestors and journalists last year.
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or really believe this. Two wrongs would make a right? Would you had preferred more injuries and fatalities?
I can see that a more forceful response would have been justified, but I still think the least lost of life is the preferred outcome, whether it's demonstrators of Pro-Trump or BLM. I do hope the individuals arrested, who stormed into and occupied the capital, get the maximum sentence possible.
Forceful response?
The police are on camera letting the maga supporters past barriers into the seat of government yesterday.
More force isn't necessarily a great idea . . . but jesus . . . less overt and direct support from the police could have prevented this whole scenario from unfolding.
And then we compare/contrast with an immediate and violent police escalation against black protestors earlier this year. Tear gas, rubber bullets, tasers and truncheon are fine as an immediate response for black citizens (and of course, for news organizations clearly marked as PRESS doing their jobs). There's very solid reason to be thinking "fuck the police" right now.
I just don't remember the cops taking selfies with rioting BLM protestors:
(https://uploads.dailydot.com/2021/01/cop-selfie-Trump-supporter.png?fit=scale&fm=png&h=503&ixlib=php-3.3.0&w=1024&wpsize=large)
Post by: bmjohnson35 on January 07, 2021, 08:50:07 AM
Wow, I just reviewed released video footage of yesterday's events at and inside the capital. It certainly was a circus. I'm happy there was little loss of life, but WOW, what a mess. This is the most disappointed and embarrassed I have felt as an American. I hope this is not setting the stage for 2021.
Post by: ixtap on January 07, 2021, 08:58:30 AM
Post by: DadJokes on January 07, 2021, 08:59:52 AM
My in-laws spend a lot of time watching the news. As a result, they're always fretting about something. They often want to rope us into whatever it is Fox News has them worked up about, and we remind them that there's no point in worrying about things that lie outside of their circle of influence. It does nothing to stop them from watching, but at least it ends the conversation.
Post by: dandarc on January 07, 2021, 09:06:23 AM
And completely ignoring events is no way to be a good citizen. Those of us in positions of privilege simply turning a blind eye to our problems is how so much injustice is perpetuated.
Post by: Imma on January 07, 2021, 09:59:00 AM
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.
I know it's been said before, but it deserves to be said again.
Terrorists are all just "normal folk" who have been brainwashed into becoming extremists. That's why the Republican / Trumper / conspiracy theorist brainwashing machine is so dangerous.
I didn't say it wasn't dangerous. But I blame the ringleaders of the brainwashing, in the same way we blame Jim Jones and not the individual cult members. That doesn't mean that the cult members should get away with domestic terrorism, just that they deserve our empathy. A young woman literally took a bullet yesterday for her cult leader that she believed was literally sent by God (based on her social media).
Post by: Metalcat on January 07, 2021, 10:16:56 AM
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.
I know it's been said before, but it deserves to be said again.
Terrorists are all just "normal folk" who have been brainwashed into becoming extremists. That's why the Republican / Trumper / conspiracy theorist brainwashing machine is so dangerous.
I didn't say it wasn't dangerous. But I blame the ringleaders of the brainwashing, in the same way we blame Jim Jones and not the individual cult members. That doesn't mean that the cult members should get away with domestic terrorism, just that they deserve our empathy. A young woman literally took a bullet yesterday for her cult leader that she believed was literally sent by God (based on her social media).
The thing is, *all* human behaviour is understandable.
One can hold people responsible for their actions while still understanding why they behave the way they do.
Also, I'm sure a lot of those "normal folk" are actually total assholes, the same way a lot of "normal folk" are total assholes.
Btw, who are the not "normal folk"?
Who isn't deserving of understanding and compassion when they choose to do something violent and criminal?
Post by: sherr on January 07, 2021, 10:17:50 AM
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.
I know it's been said before, but it deserves to be said again.
Terrorists are all just "normal folk" who have been brainwashed into becoming extremists. That's why the Republican / Trumper / conspiracy theorist brainwashing machine is so dangerous.
I didn't say it wasn't dangerous. But I blame the ringleaders of the brainwashing, in the same way we blame Jim Jones and not the individual cult members. That doesn't mean that the cult members should get away with domestic terrorism, just that they deserve our empathy. A young woman literally took a bullet yesterday for her cult leader that she believed was literally sent by God (based on her social media).
We blame Jim Jones because he hurt other people, his cultists only hurt themselves. We also blame every terrorist who blows people up, not just their brain-washers, because they hurt other people. Perhaps its a matter of opinion, but once you cross the boundary into armed insurrection against the government, to the cheers of "This is the new revolution!" from all the eggers-on on the internet, then that crosses the boundary of "hurts other people" to me.
Not that I'm glad that woman died, of course I'm not, of course the entire situation is horrible, of course the leaders of the movement deserve the lion's share of the blame, of course I wish that this had never happened and that people were not so gullible. But when people actually cross the line into being domestic terrorists (feel free to have your own opinion on whether that line has been crossed), then they are by definition not just "normal folk" anymore, even though sure they used to be at some point. And my personal empathy for people starts to evaporate when they are intentionally attempting to start a Civil War II based on nothing but lies and propaganda and conspiracy theories and love for Donald Trump.
Post by: DadJokes on January 07, 2021, 10:21:40 AM
I'll help you out @DadJokes - at least in US-centric news AP, Reuters, Washington Post, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, ABC News all have well earned reputations for high-quality and fair reporting.
And completely ignoring events is no way to be a good citizen. Those of us in positions of privilege simply turning a blind eye to our problems is how so much injustice is perpetuated.
And if you think none of those have bias, I have some oceanfront property you might be interested in.
I never said that I turn a blind eye to problems. I disregard things that are outside my circle of influence. In what way has watching the news made you better able to solve society's problems?
Edited to fix double negative
Post by: dandarc on January 07, 2021, 10:47:39 AM
The right's biggest coup was convincing that the conservative viewpoint is in any way reasonable and close to middle ground, when it is in fact pretty far-right. And I'm not talking about folks willing to literally attack our government when I say that. We are conditioned to think the middle is somewhere between New York Times and Fox News, when New York times in fact, pretty much is the middle.
Post by: sherr on January 07, 2021, 10:57:50 AM
Perfect is the enemy of the good - WaPo makes some mistakes, which they largely admit to and apologize for, and so they are just as easily dismissed as Fox News, OAN, Mother Jones because you don't see the difference in degree. You're not able to muster the energy right now to educate yourself, but that's something for you to tackle as an individual.
The right's biggest coup was convincing that the conservative viewpoint is in any way reasonable and close to middle ground, when it is in fact pretty far-right. And I'm not talking about folks willing to literally attack our government when I say that. We are conditioned to think the middle is somewhere between New York Times and Fox News, when New York times in fact, pretty much is the middle.
To agree, I like to link people to this Media Bias Chart (https://www.adfontesmedia.com/static-mbc/). Feel free to read up on their methodology and assessments if you want. Any of the news sources in the center-middle green box are pretty good, and at least will honestly label opinion articles as opinion articles.
Fox News is the right's equivalent to something like Daily KOS or Occupy Democrats on the left, and yet conservatives think that Fox and NYT are opposites of each other...
Post by: DadJokes on January 07, 2021, 10:59:06 AM
You're not able to muster the energy right now to educate yourself, but that's something for you to tackle as an individual.
Rather than being condescending, you can answer the question. In what way does following the news better help you to solve society's problems?
Post by: ender on January 07, 2021, 11:27:26 AM
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.
I know it's been said before, but it deserves to be said again.
Terrorists are all just "normal folk" who have been brainwashed into becoming extremists. That's why the Republican / Trumper / conspiracy theorist brainwashing machine is so dangerous.
I didn't say it wasn't dangerous. But I blame the ringleaders of the brainwashing, in the same way we blame Jim Jones and not the individual cult members. That doesn't mean that the cult members should get away with domestic terrorism, just that they deserve our empathy. A young woman literally took a bullet yesterday for her cult leader that she believed was literally sent by God (based on her social media).
One of the most dangerous things that Americans can do is assume that Trump caused this specific incident (as well as all the negatives associated with MAGA such as refusing to tolerate the election, taking over various government buildings, etc). And that with Trump gone, the problems are also gone.
Trump certainly has stoked flames, taken advantage of this sentiment, and absolutely has done nothing to diffuse it from escalating into violence. Either way though the underlying sentiment that got him elected president and has caused people to do things like break into the capitol existed before him and will exist after he is not president.
In many regards, it's lucky Trump was as incompetent or disinterested in actively manipulating what he tapped into as he was. It's pretty easy for me to imagine a lot worse scenarios happening over the last four years than what happened. If someone who was far more malevolent/competent taps into that sentiment, they'll make Trump seem tame.
Post by: former player on January 07, 2021, 12:13:28 PM
That chart seems to show the Weather Channel as slightly left of centre. Colour me intrigued.
To agree, I like to link people to this Media Bias Chart (https://www.adfontesmedia.com/static-mbc/). Feel free to read up on their methodology and assessments if you want. Any of the news sources in the center-middle green box are pretty good, and at least will honestly label opinion articles as opinion articles.
Post by: SwordGuy on January 07, 2021, 12:17:54 PM
Yeah, people who know about weather might believe in climate change -- so they're definitely so far left of center they're practically communists.That chart seems to show the Weather Channel as slightly left of centre. Colour me intrigued.
To agree, I like to link people to this Media Bias Chart (https://www.adfontesmedia.com/static-mbc/). Feel free to read up on their methodology and assessments if you want. Any of the news sources in the center-middle green box are pretty good, and at least will honestly label opinion articles as opinion articles.
That would be sarcasm from me about the alt-right's sense of what normal is.
Post by: sherr on January 07, 2021, 12:42:14 PM
That chart seems to show the Weather Channel as slightly left of centre. Colour me intrigued.
To agree, I like to link people to this Media Bias Chart (https://www.adfontesmedia.com/static-mbc/). Feel free to read up on their methodology and assessments if you want. Any of the news sources in the center-middle green box are pretty good, and at least will honestly label opinion articles as opinion articles.
You can look up (https://www.adfontesmedia.com/weather-channel-bias-and-reliability/) why they ranked any particular outlet the way they did, complete with examples. At some point though there's not really a difference between minor variations in their point scale. "Which box is it in" is a lot more telling than whether The Weather Channel is two and a half points to the left on an 84-point scale.
Post by: GuitarStv on January 07, 2021, 12:44:22 PM
That chart seems to show the Weather Channel as slightly left of centre. Colour me intrigued.
To agree, I like to link people to this Media Bias Chart (https://www.adfontesmedia.com/static-mbc/). Feel free to read up on their methodology and assessments if you want. Any of the news sources in the center-middle green box are pretty good, and at least will honestly label opinion articles as opinion articles.
Reality has a well known liberal bias.
Post by: dandarc on January 07, 2021, 12:52:43 PM
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 07, 2021, 01:16:41 PM
You're not able to muster the energy right now to educate yourself, but that's something for you to tackle as an individual.
Rather than being condescending, you can answer the question. In what way does following the news better help you to solve society's problems?
If I understand the system, Americans vote every 2 years for federal posts. Paying attention (and remembering) instead of just going by campaign rhetoric makes you a better informed voter. Assuming you dont get all your news from one source, of course.
As an aside, why do some Americans complain about their news sources and never seem to consider going to outside sources? As in, other countries?
Post by: dandarc on January 07, 2021, 01:17:36 PM
Read White Fragility for a much better case than I could ever write. Silence from those of who hold power (the book focuses on white people, but on this forum regardless of race, high liklihood we're rich or on the way to being rich is also a source of immense power in our society) is a big factor in perpetuating the massive injustices we continue to inflict on so many of our fellow citizens.You're not able to muster the energy right now to educate yourself, but that's something for you to tackle as an individual.
Rather than being condescending, you can answer the question. In what way does following the news better help you to solve society's problems?
The issues at hand are quite complex and difficult to understand for a lot of different reasons. And it is particularly difficult for people in positions of privilege to see when our society goes to great lengths to shelter us from how the world is for others - if we who have power to change the problem don't understand that there is a problem or that we're in a position to help, nothing changes. And nothing changes means we continue to treat many, many people unfairly. So we have a responsibility to try to learn about problems in ours society and do better - nobody is expecting perfection, but the incredible resistance by so many to even trying a little bit is disheartening.
This is patently obvious when it comes to systemic racism in the United States. I think it applies to other forms of privilege as well. And while we certainly cannot be reading news 24-7, we have to be at least somewhat in touch with events to better understand legitimate grievances so we can help to fix the problem.
Sherr also pointed you to a good solution for efficiently solving the "can I reasonably trust this news source" question. Almost nobody has the capacity to independently investigate the veracity of every single news source - that's obvious. So outsource it - these days that can even be done for free pretty easily. adfontesmedia.com is a place to get a quick gist of where whoever wrote what you're reading is about, even on outlets you may have never heard of before. There are other sites that do similar work. Sometimes there are slight difference in the evaluations, but particularly for the widely known outlets, there is pretty good consensus.
So, getting back - you say "I don't know who to trust so I disengage". I say try a little harder to find out what sources can be trusted.
Post by: dandarc on January 07, 2021, 01:21:47 PM
Great suggestion!You're not able to muster the energy right now to educate yourself, but that's something for you to tackle as an individual.
Rather than being condescending, you can answer the question. In what way does following the news better help you to solve society's problems?
If I understand the system, Americans vote every 2 years for federal posts. Paying attention (and remembering) instead of just going by campaign rhetoric makes you a better informed voter. Assuming you dont get all your news from one source, of course.
As an aside, why do some Americans complain about their news sources and never seem to consider going to outside sources? As in, other countries?
Post by: dandarc on January 07, 2021, 01:41:14 PM
I can't be the only person here who in the immediate aftermath of the George Floyd murder, saw lots of friends of friends and even a few people I know well crying "I don't know what to say to my friend . . . " And then they lashed out regardless of what was suggested or by whom, even things as basic as "how about saying to your friend as a start 'that sounds awful. how can I help?'" Real prevalent this need to have a pat answer to any question that might be asked of you to white people, and we tend to think the glib response is quite often enough effort for whatever.
Post by: Imma on January 07, 2021, 01:48:03 PM
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.
I know it's been said before, but it deserves to be said again.
Terrorists are all just "normal folk" who have been brainwashed into becoming extremists. That's why the Republican / Trumper / conspiracy theorist brainwashing machine is so dangerous.
I didn't say it wasn't dangerous. But I blame the ringleaders of the brainwashing, in the same way we blame Jim Jones and not the individual cult members. That doesn't mean that the cult members should get away with domestic terrorism, just that they deserve our empathy. A young woman literally took a bullet yesterday for her cult leader that she believed was literally sent by God (based on her social media).
One of the most dangerous things that Americans can do is assume that Trump caused this specific incident (as well as all the negatives associated with MAGA such as refusing to tolerate the election, taking over various government buildings, etc). And that with Trump gone, the problems are also gone.
Trump certainly has stoked flames, taken advantage of this sentiment, and absolutely has done nothing to diffuse it from escalating into violence. Either way though the underlying sentiment that got him elected president and has caused people to do things like break into the capitol existed before him and will exist after he is not president.
In many regards, it's lucky Trump was as incompetent or disinterested in actively manipulating what he tapped into as he was. It's pretty easy for me to imagine a lot worse scenarios happening over the last four years than what happened. If someone who was far more malevolent/competent taps into that sentiment, they'll make Trump seem tame.
I don't think Trump as a person is the only one to blame. I agree that it would have been way more dangerous if there had been an actual competent President. Not just yesterday - his whole term could have been ten times worse if there had been a capable person in charge. He's not actually in it to be an authoritarian leader. Trump is there for Trump and he quickly found out being President means endless boring meetings and not enough golf.
I think the whole religious right in the US over the past couple of decades has strong cult-like characteristics. It's been crazy for a while but from an outsider's perspective it's gotten worse with every President since Bush jr. Maybe earlier but I was too young to be sure. We think Bush jr is great now but let's not forget he was accused of ballot fraud, his legitimacy as a President was constantly questioned, then he started a very dodgy war based on a clear lie. Then came Obama and the birther movement. Then Hillary Clinton and all the various conspiracies surrounding her, especially Pizzagate. Now QAnon and Covid. It's getting more and more crazy.
I personally know 2 American Trump supporters in the Netherlands. One is an expat, one has dual nationality. I see how they struggle with two competing world views: the world they see around them and the world as they're told it is like by the cult they grew up in (both are from the rural South and probably didn't know "liberals" until they moved here). They suffer from serious mental health issues due to the cognitive dissonance. They have lost friendships and lovers because of it and they just do not get why (I've always made it clear I don't discuss politics with them). The echo chamber they grew up in is just so strong. It's not like normal people that join other political organizations than their parents, like me and my partner. It's much more similar to my highschool friend who wanted to live a normal life like us but was also raised as a Jehova's Witness. (After years of agony the Jehova's Witnesses won)
As I said, I'm an outsider. If my Parliament had been attacked I may have struggled to find empathy as well and call them terrorists instead.
Where's the line between terrorism and cultism? I'm not sure they are different things. We call it a cult when the people are a bit like us but odd, and terrorism when they're scary. People in cults harm others all the time, other members as well as non-members, and when they do and get caught, and it turns out they're completely brainwashed, they are sentenced but not punished - they are sent to a psychiatric hospital (at least in my country, I know in the US, members of Manson's cult werd sent to prisons). ISIS to me seems to me to be one big Doomsday cult that mainly recruits teenagers and other mentally vulnerable people, but we put them in prison. To me the difference between the members of the two groups is small.
Post by: sherr on January 07, 2021, 02:02:44 PM
Where's the line between terrorism and cultism? I'm not sure they are different things. We call it a cult when the people are a bit like us but odd, and terrorism when they're scary. People in cults harm others all the time, other members as well as non-members, and when they do and get caught, and it turns out they're completely brainwashed, they are sentenced but not punished - they are sent to a psychiatric hospital (at least in my country, I know in the US, members of Manson's cult werd sent to prisons). ISIS to me seems to me to be one big Doomsday cult that mainly recruits teenagers and other mentally vulnerable people, but we put them in prison. To me the difference between the members of the two groups is small.
I think the two are actually fairly well defined. Cultism relates to religious beliefs, Terrorism is using violence or intimidation for political ends. The first can easily lead to the second, as in the case of ISIS, but of course it doesn't have to.
Considering that some of the people who stormed the Capitol building constructed a noose (https://www.businessinsider.com/nooses-spotted-as-pro-trump-rioters-spark-chaos-on-capitol-2021-1) and were shouting "Hang Mike Pence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ehnpwH_0b8)" I think its unarguable that there are some terrorists in the mix. Probably also some cultists too, sure, and some of them may have been the same people.
Post by: achvfi on January 07, 2021, 02:08:36 PM
In many regards, it's lucky Trump was as incompetent or disinterested in actively manipulating what he tapped into as he was. It's pretty easy for me to imagine a lot worse scenarios happening over the last four years than what happened. If someone who was far more malevolent/competent taps into that sentiment, they'll make Trump seem tame.
Yeah I was thinking the same. Imagine replacing Trump with someone with more sophisticated and intelligent brain. Like may be Putin, may be Hitler! Imagine the consequences overtime.
I am gonna piss my pants now.
Post by: Sibley on January 07, 2021, 02:27:48 PM
To agree, I like to link people to this Media Bias Chart (https://www.adfontesmedia.com/static-mbc/). Feel free to read up on their methodology and assessments if you want. Any of the news sources in the center-middle green box are pretty good, and at least will honestly label opinion articles as opinion articles.
Fox News is the right's equivalent to something like Daily KOS or Occupy Democrats on the left, and yet conservatives think that Fox and NYT are opposites of each other...
I do find it interesting the correlation between right leaning and unreliability.
Post by: GuitarStv on January 07, 2021, 02:34:57 PM
To agree, I like to link people to this Media Bias Chart (https://www.adfontesmedia.com/static-mbc/). Feel free to read up on their methodology and assessments if you want. Any of the news sources in the center-middle green box are pretty good, and at least will honestly label opinion articles as opinion articles.
Fox News is the right's equivalent to something like Daily KOS or Occupy Democrats on the left, and yet conservatives think that Fox and NYT are opposites of each other...
I do find it interesting the correlation between right leaning and unreliability.
Reality has a well known liberal bias.
Post by: Maenad on January 07, 2021, 03:00:04 PM
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.
I know it's been said before, but it deserves to be said again.
Terrorists are all just "normal folk" who have been brainwashed into becoming extremists. That's why the Republican / Trumper / conspiracy theorist brainwashing machine is so dangerous.
I didn't say it wasn't dangerous. But I blame the ringleaders of the brainwashing, in the same way we blame Jim Jones and not the individual cult members. That doesn't mean that the cult members should get away with domestic terrorism, just that they deserve our empathy. A young woman literally took a bullet yesterday for her cult leader that she believed was literally sent by God (based on her social media).
One of the most dangerous things that Americans can do is assume that Trump caused this specific incident (as well as all the negatives associated with MAGA such as refusing to tolerate the election, taking over various government buildings, etc). And that with Trump gone, the problems are also gone.
Exactly. I've heard Conservatives/Republicans talking about how we need voter IDs and tougher voting laws to prevent voter fraud for years, way before Trump was in office. There is no data to show that there has been any significant voting fraud anywhere in the US in... decades. But that's been the drum being beaten - "voter fraud is a huge risk". Refusing to accept election results they don't like is a natural extension of that myth. Add in a willingness for "Second Amendment solutions" proposed by Trump, and an idolatry of the Revolution and Civil War (blech), and yesterday was something that was a long time coming. Anyone who says they're shocked is either hopelessly naive, or lying.
Post by: ixtap on January 07, 2021, 03:05:23 PM
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.
I know it's been said before, but it deserves to be said again.
Terrorists are all just "normal folk" who have been brainwashed into becoming extremists. That's why the Republican / Trumper / conspiracy theorist brainwashing machine is so dangerous.
I didn't say it wasn't dangerous. But I blame the ringleaders of the brainwashing, in the same way we blame Jim Jones and not the individual cult members. That doesn't mean that the cult members should get away with domestic terrorism, just that they deserve our empathy. A young woman literally took a bullet yesterday for her cult leader that she believed was literally sent by God (based on her social media).
One of the most dangerous things that Americans can do is assume that Trump caused this specific incident (as well as all the negatives associated with MAGA such as refusing to tolerate the election, taking over various government buildings, etc). And that with Trump gone, the problems are also gone.
Exactly. I've heard Conservatives/Republicans talking about how we need voter IDs and tougher voting laws to prevent voter fraud for years, way before Trump was in office. There is no data to show that there has been any significant voting fraud anywhere in the US in... decades. But that's been the drum being beaten - "voter fraud is a huge risk". Refusing to accept election results they don't like is a natural extension of that myth. Add in a willingness for "Second Amendment solutions" proposed by Trump, and an idolatry of the Revolution and Civil War (blech), and yesterday was something that was a long time coming. Anyone who says they're shocked is either hopelessly naive, or lying.
You know, I am not sure I would have understood this if I hadn't been exposed to my in laws throughout most of the Obama administration. The blatant racism and disregard for facts, followed by the lauded "honesty" of Trump...I mean, my brother is right there with them, but he has just moved from one fringe cult to another most of his adult life, so I wouldn't have necessarily have realized how wide spread it was.
Still think Bush has a lot to answer for on contradicting the international intelligence community on WMDs, though.
Post by: American GenX on January 07, 2021, 03:32:47 PM
Anyone who says they're shocked is either hopelessly naive, or lying.
True. With all the protesting I saw last year with rioters, looters, and arsonists across the county, I certainly wasn't shocked by what happened yesterday.
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 07, 2021, 03:49:29 PM
Anyone who says they're shocked is either hopelessly naive, or lying.
True. With all the protesting I saw this year with rioters, looters, and arsonists across the county, I certainly wasn't shocked by what happened yesterday.
false equivalency much? your racism is showing
Post by: American GenX on January 07, 2021, 04:47:06 PM
Anyone who says they're shocked is either hopelessly naive, or lying.
True. With all the protesting I saw last year with rioters, looters, and arsonists across the county, I certainly wasn't shocked by what happened yesterday.
false equivalency much? your racism is showing
WTF? Very strange irrelevant response including a personal attack when I simply stated why I agree with the previous poster and why it doesn't surprise me to see this sort of thing continue at this point.
Not sure if you are intentionally trolling or just misunderstood... something, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Post by: MudPuppy on January 07, 2021, 05:01:52 PM
Post by: moneypitfeeder on January 07, 2021, 05:22:31 PM
It's unfortunate, but in this day and age, I don't know which news sources I can trust and which I can't
We normally choose NPR & BBC News, they seem to adhere to rigorous fact checking and non-biased standards.
Post by: ixtap on January 07, 2021, 05:33:15 PM
It's unfortunate, but in this day and age, I don't know which news sources I can trust and which I can't
We normally choose NPR & BBC News, they seem to adhere to rigorous fact checking and non-biased standards.
My favorites, as well.
CNN and Fox are good for breaking news - CNN was the only one with an electoral vote tracker last night, but I recognize the need to balance them out and be very clear between opinion and news. In the case of Fox, I find they actually get things generally right in the breaking news, but then start putting spin on it over the next few hours...
Post by: OtherJen on January 07, 2021, 05:51:28 PM
It's unfortunate, but in this day and age, I don't know which news sources I can trust and which I can't
We normally choose NPR & BBC News, they seem to adhere to rigorous fact checking and non-biased standards.
My favorites, as well.
CNN and Fox are good for breaking news - CNN was the only one with an electoral vote tracker last night, but I recognize the need to balance them out and be very clear between opinion and news. In the case of Fox, I find they actually get things generally right in the breaking news, but then start putting spin on it over the next few hours...
I agree with all of this. Reuters and AP News are also solid and reliable.
Post by: moneypitfeeder on January 07, 2021, 06:23:37 PM
Post by: SwordGuy on January 07, 2021, 09:18:39 PM
Also great options @OtherJen , my mom (a staunch republican) told me that she wrote on her calendar yesterday was the day the republic was demolished.
This part of your message gives me hope. Thank your for giving an example of a staunch Republican who understands how terrible what happened actually is.
Post by: sherr on January 07, 2021, 09:30:58 PM
Also great options @OtherJen , my mom (a staunch republican) told me that she wrote on her calendar yesterday was the day the republic was demolished.
This part of your message gives me hope. Thank your for giving an example of a staunch Republican who understands how terrible what happened actually is.
Moneypitfeeder knows their mom better than I do of course, but this is not a safe assumption (in general) to make. The Trumpers are claiming that the 6th was the day democracy died because "we weren't able to stop the steal and now pedophile Joe Biden and his secret handler Harris will sell the country to China and turn us into a super-socialist hellhole and we'll never have another fair election again with all the fraud." Just sayin.
Post by: Adventine on January 07, 2021, 09:49:00 PM
Post by: SwordGuy on January 07, 2021, 10:44:13 PM
Also great options @OtherJen , my mom (a staunch republican) told me that she wrote on her calendar yesterday was the day the republic was demolished.
This part of your message gives me hope. Thank your for giving an example of a staunch Republican who understands how terrible what happened actually is.
Moneypitfeeder knows their mom better than I do of course, but this is not a safe assumption (in general) to make. The Trumpers are claiming that the 6th was the day democracy died because "we weren't able to stop the steal and now pedophile Joe Biden and his secret handler Harris will sell the country to China and turn us into a super-socialist hellhole and we'll never have another fair election again with all the fraud." Just sayin.
Well, bugger all. You're both right.
On other news, on FB I saw a video self-confession of someone who attempted an insurrection, entered the capitol, and got maced and retreated. Gave their first name and home city. Reported them to DC capitol police and their home city police department. Seemed dumb enough to give away other names too if caught.
Post by: Imma on January 08, 2021, 01:57:02 AM
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.
I know it's been said before, but it deserves to be said again.
Terrorists are all just "normal folk" who have been brainwashed into becoming extremists. That's why the Republican / Trumper / conspiracy theorist brainwashing machine is so dangerous.
I didn't say it wasn't dangerous. But I blame the ringleaders of the brainwashing, in the same way we blame Jim Jones and not the individual cult members. That doesn't mean that the cult members should get away with domestic terrorism, just that they deserve our empathy. A young woman literally took a bullet yesterday for her cult leader that she believed was literally sent by God (based on her social media).
One of the most dangerous things that Americans can do is assume that Trump caused this specific incident (as well as all the negatives associated with MAGA such as refusing to tolerate the election, taking over various government buildings, etc). And that with Trump gone, the problems are also gone.
Exactly. I've heard Conservatives/Republicans talking about how we need voter IDs and tougher voting laws to prevent voter fraud for years, way before Trump was in office. There is no data to show that there has been any significant voting fraud anywhere in the US in... decades. But that's been the drum being beaten - "voter fraud is a huge risk". Refusing to accept election results they don't like is a natural extension of that myth. Add in a willingness for "Second Amendment solutions" proposed by Trump, and an idolatry of the Revolution and Civil War (blech), and yesterday was something that was a long time coming. Anyone who says they're shocked is either hopelessly naive, or lying.
I don't see what's wrong with voter ID laws? I think almost every country in the world except for the US requires (government-issued) ID to vote.
Post by: marty998 on January 08, 2021, 02:12:26 AM
I personally know 2 American Trump supporters in the Netherlands. One is an expat, one has dual nationality. I see how they struggle with two competing world views: the world they see around them and the world as they're told it is like by the cult they grew up in (both are from the rural South and probably didn't know "liberals" until they moved here). They suffer from serious mental health issues due to the cognitive dissonance. They have lost friendships and lovers because of it and they just do not get why (I've always made it clear I don't discuss politics with them). The echo chamber they grew up in is just so strong. It's not like normal people that join other political organizations than their parents, like me and my partner. It's much more similar to my highschool friend who wanted to live a normal life like us but was also raised as a Jehova's Witness. (After years of agony the Jehova's Witnesses won)
This amazes me. The blind faith and absolute sureness of the rightness of their position that despite continual loss of friendships and relationships and family they Still. Don't. Get. It.
It must be utterly exhausting to go through day to day life experiencing reality and one's brain then has to constantly rearrange that reality to fit a preconceived view of how things should be.
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 08, 2021, 03:44:43 AM
I don’t see anything odd about what the poster said, @American GenX. Comparing racial unrest to political coup is just not a thing, friend.
I can see his point. While I don’t compare the underlying “causes” if you look at the actions they are similar. The way I look at it, I think they should have expected not based on the why of the movement, but based on the how, underlying anger followed by the propensity of a group being able to excite themselves into crossing the line from civil protest to criminal action.
Post by: simmias on January 08, 2021, 03:51:32 AM
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.
I know it's been said before, but it deserves to be said again.
Terrorists are all just "normal folk" who have been brainwashed into becoming extremists. That's why the Republican / Trumper / conspiracy theorist brainwashing machine is so dangerous.
I didn't say it wasn't dangerous. But I blame the ringleaders of the brainwashing, in the same way we blame Jim Jones and not the individual cult members. That doesn't mean that the cult members should get away with domestic terrorism, just that they deserve our empathy. A young woman literally took a bullet yesterday for her cult leader that she believed was literally sent by God (based on her social media).
One of the most dangerous things that Americans can do is assume that Trump caused this specific incident (as well as all the negatives associated with MAGA such as refusing to tolerate the election, taking over various government buildings, etc). And that with Trump gone, the problems are also gone.
Exactly. I've heard Conservatives/Republicans talking about how we need voter IDs and tougher voting laws to prevent voter fraud for years, way before Trump was in office. There is no data to show that there has been any significant voting fraud anywhere in the US in... decades. But that's been the drum being beaten - "voter fraud is a huge risk". Refusing to accept election results they don't like is a natural extension of that myth. Add in a willingness for "Second Amendment solutions" proposed by Trump, and an idolatry of the Revolution and Civil War (blech), and yesterday was something that was a long time coming. Anyone who says they're shocked is either hopelessly naive, or lying.
I don't see what's wrong with voter ID laws? I think almost every country in the world except for the US requires (government-issued) ID to vote.
It's a way to keep poor people from voting, since many do not have acceptable ID due to the cost to obtain and regularly renew it.
Post by: OtherJen on January 08, 2021, 04:27:22 AM
Also great options @OtherJen , my mom (a staunch republican) told me that she wrote on her calendar yesterday was the day the republic was demolished.
This part of your message gives me hope. Thank your for giving an example of a staunch Republican who understands how terrible what happened actually is.
Moneypitfeeder knows their mom better than I do of course, but this is not a safe assumption (in general) to make. The Trumpers are claiming that the 6th was the day democracy died because "we weren't able to stop the steal and now pedophile Joe Biden and his secret handler Harris will sell the country to China and turn us into a super-socialist hellhole and we'll never have another fair election again with all the fraud." Just sayin.
Well, bugger all. You're both right.
On other news, on FB I saw a video self-confession of someone who attempted an insurrection, entered the capitol, and got maced and retreated. Gave their first name and home city. Reported them to DC capitol police and their home city police department. Seemed dumb enough to give away other names too if caught.
Elizabeth from Knoxville? If you look at the towel she's holding, she appears to be badly concealing an onion with which she is rubbing her eyes.
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on January 08, 2021, 05:59:33 AM
Anyone who says they're shocked is either hopelessly naive, or lying.
True. With all the protesting I saw last year with rioters, looters, and arsonists across the county, I certainly wasn't shocked by what happened yesterday.
false equivalency much? your racism is showing
WTF? Very strange irrelevant response including a personal attack when I simply stated why I agree with the previous poster and why it doesn't surprise me to see this sort of thing continue at this point.
Not sure if you are intentionally trolling or just misunderstood... something, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Don't clutch your pearls when you say something ignorant and basically just dog whistles. We see you
Post by: ixtap on January 08, 2021, 07:04:58 AM
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.
I know it's been said before, but it deserves to be said again.
Terrorists are all just "normal folk" who have been brainwashed into becoming extremists. That's why the Republican / Trumper / conspiracy theorist brainwashing machine is so dangerous.
I didn't say it wasn't dangerous. But I blame the ringleaders of the brainwashing, in the same way we blame Jim Jones and not the individual cult members. That doesn't mean that the cult members should get away with domestic terrorism, just that they deserve our empathy. A young woman literally took a bullet yesterday for her cult leader that she believed was literally sent by God (based on her social media).
One of the most dangerous things that Americans can do is assume that Trump caused this specific incident (as well as all the negatives associated with MAGA such as refusing to tolerate the election, taking over various government buildings, etc). And that with Trump gone, the problems are also gone.
Exactly. I've heard Conservatives/Republicans talking about how we need voter IDs and tougher voting laws to prevent voter fraud for years, way before Trump was in office. There is no data to show that there has been any significant voting fraud anywhere in the US in... decades. But that's been the drum being beaten - "voter fraud is a huge risk". Refusing to accept election results they don't like is a natural extension of that myth. Add in a willingness for "Second Amendment solutions" proposed by Trump, and an idolatry of the Revolution and Civil War (blech), and yesterday was something that was a long time coming. Anyone who says they're shocked is either hopelessly naive, or lying.
I don't see what's wrong with voter ID laws? I think almost every country in the world except for the US requires (government-issued) ID to vote.
It's a way to keep poor people from voting, since many do not have acceptable ID due to the cost to obtain and regularly renew it.
In the US, as soon as the voting rights act was gutted, certain states simultaneously enacted ID laws and shut down the DMV centers in areas that tend to be heavily minority. If you want voter ID laws, you have to make it a free cake walk to get your ID.
Post by: Sibley on January 08, 2021, 07:37:56 AM
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.
I know it's been said before, but it deserves to be said again.
Terrorists are all just "normal folk" who have been brainwashed into becoming extremists. That's why the Republican / Trumper / conspiracy theorist brainwashing machine is so dangerous.
I didn't say it wasn't dangerous. But I blame the ringleaders of the brainwashing, in the same way we blame Jim Jones and not the individual cult members. That doesn't mean that the cult members should get away with domestic terrorism, just that they deserve our empathy. A young woman literally took a bullet yesterday for her cult leader that she believed was literally sent by God (based on her social media).
One of the most dangerous things that Americans can do is assume that Trump caused this specific incident (as well as all the negatives associated with MAGA such as refusing to tolerate the election, taking over various government buildings, etc). And that with Trump gone, the problems are also gone.
Exactly. I've heard Conservatives/Republicans talking about how we need voter IDs and tougher voting laws to prevent voter fraud for years, way before Trump was in office. There is no data to show that there has been any significant voting fraud anywhere in the US in... decades. But that's been the drum being beaten - "voter fraud is a huge risk". Refusing to accept election results they don't like is a natural extension of that myth. Add in a willingness for "Second Amendment solutions" proposed by Trump, and an idolatry of the Revolution and Civil War (blech), and yesterday was something that was a long time coming. Anyone who says they're shocked is either hopelessly naive, or lying.
I don't see what's wrong with voter ID laws? I think almost every country in the world except for the US requires (government-issued) ID to vote.
It's a way to keep poor people from voting, since many do not have acceptable ID due to the cost to obtain and regularly renew it.
In the US, as soon as the voting rights act was gutted, certain states simultaneously enacted ID laws and shut down the DMV centers in areas that tend to be heavily minority. If you want voter ID laws, you have to make it a free cake walk to get your ID.
Exactly. Plus, there are persistent issues with obtaining the right kinds of documents. For very poor people, or people from unstable families, this can be a massive hurdle administratively and also monetarily.
I have no problem requiring ID to vote as long as everyone has the practical and reasonable ability to get said ID. The US, as a whole, has failed in that regard. (yes, not all states - but it's enough that I will slam the country as a whole. Sometimes you deserve to painted with the same brush.)
Post by: GuitarStv on January 08, 2021, 07:40:30 AM
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.
I know it's been said before, but it deserves to be said again.
Terrorists are all just "normal folk" who have been brainwashed into becoming extremists. That's why the Republican / Trumper / conspiracy theorist brainwashing machine is so dangerous.
I didn't say it wasn't dangerous. But I blame the ringleaders of the brainwashing, in the same way we blame Jim Jones and not the individual cult members. That doesn't mean that the cult members should get away with domestic terrorism, just that they deserve our empathy. A young woman literally took a bullet yesterday for her cult leader that she believed was literally sent by God (based on her social media).
One of the most dangerous things that Americans can do is assume that Trump caused this specific incident (as well as all the negatives associated with MAGA such as refusing to tolerate the election, taking over various government buildings, etc). And that with Trump gone, the problems are also gone.
Exactly. I've heard Conservatives/Republicans talking about how we need voter IDs and tougher voting laws to prevent voter fraud for years, way before Trump was in office. There is no data to show that there has been any significant voting fraud anywhere in the US in... decades. But that's been the drum being beaten - "voter fraud is a huge risk". Refusing to accept election results they don't like is a natural extension of that myth. Add in a willingness for "Second Amendment solutions" proposed by Trump, and an idolatry of the Revolution and Civil War (blech), and yesterday was something that was a long time coming. Anyone who says they're shocked is either hopelessly naive, or lying.
I don't see what's wrong with voter ID laws? I think almost every country in the world except for the US requires (government-issued) ID to vote.
It's a way to keep poor people from voting, since many do not have acceptable ID due to the cost to obtain and regularly renew it.
In the US, as soon as the voting rights act was gutted, certain states simultaneously enacted ID laws and shut down the DMV centers in areas that tend to be heavily minority. If you want voter ID laws, you have to make it a free cake walk to get your ID.
There's a long history of using 'fraud' to justify targeted voter suppression against black people. Voter ID laws often disproportionately impact black and latino voters. Here's some research regarding the racial disparity - https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev-polisci-051215-022822 (https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev-polisci-051215-022822)
Quote
Just 7% of whites and 10% of Latinos report not having a driver's license, compared to 21% of African Americans. The differences are larger when the three criteria mentioned above (i.e., not being expired, matching the registration address, and matching the registration name) are considered. The rates at which whites do not hold a valid license according to these criteria is 16%, compared to 27% for Latinos and 37% for African Americans.
Typically voter ID laws are very restrictive about what ID is allowed - indicating that identification is much less important than actual voter suppression. This is what ended up getting Texas voter ID laws thrown out in court (https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/20/486776853/u-s-appeals-court-finds-texas-voter-id-law-discriminates-against-minority-voters (https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/20/486776853/u-s-appeals-court-finds-texas-voter-id-law-discriminates-against-minority-voters)) as discriminatory. Then Texas updated their law . . . and it was again found in court to be discriminatory (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/a-court-strikes-down-texass-voter-id-law-for-the-fifth-time/537792/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/a-court-strikes-down-texass-voter-id-law-for-the-fifth-time/537792/)).
Post by: sherr on January 08, 2021, 07:53:42 AM
I don't see what's wrong with voter ID laws? I think almost every country in the world except for the US requires (government-issued) ID to vote.
It's a way to keep poor people from voting, since many do not have acceptable ID due to the cost to obtain and regularly renew it.
Well first of all the assumption in the top post is wrong, most states DO require ID (https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx). Even the ones that don't though all have thorough checks to ensure that only citizens are voting; when you register you have to prove your citizenship and then when you vote you have to demonstrate (eg by citing your name and address, and then the State checks that you are in fact registered and haven't already voted) that you are a registered voter.
But more to your post, it's not really "poor people", it's minorities (especially black people). The US (especially the southern states) has a long and storied past of intentionally passing "okay sounding" voter laws with the intent of denying the vote to black people. There's a bunch of poor rural white Republicans too, the voting laws never target them.
And this is not ancient history. In my state (NC) the day after the Republican Supreme Court in 2013 struck down the provisions of the Civil Rights Act that required the former Confederate States to pre-clear election law changes with federal authorities, the Republican NC Legislature commissioned a report gathering statistics on how people of different races vote (what types of ID they have, if they used early voting or not, if they used same-day registration, per-registering if you're 17 and will turn 18 by the election, out-of-precinct early voting, etc, everything related). They then passed a "Voter ID Law" restricting/eliminating everything that Black people tended to use, and leaving in place everything White people tended to use.
The law was eventually unanimously struck down by a panel of federal judges (including a Republican appointee) because it "target African Americans with almost surgical precision" to impose "cures for problems that did not exist," but you can still plainly see the intent. After that they simply moved on to more-subtle methods, they didn't stop. Hilariously (and sadly), the actual defense given by the State's lawyers in that court proceeding was "well sure we targeted Black people, but we didn't do it because they're black, that would be racist. Instead we did it because they're more likely to be Democrats, so this should be legal." And I won't even bother talking about all the other racist stuff they did, like unconstitutionally racist gerrymandering that they slow-walked through the courts so long that we've been voting under the unconstitutionally racistly gerrymandered district map for most of the decade anyway.
And this is not unique to North Carolina! This is the underlying trend everywhere, every time Republicans introduce "election security" bills. They are NOT "pro-election security". They are "ANTI-letting anyone else vote (or have their votes matter), especially black people". This is why they are now anti-mail-in-ballots, not because there was "so much fraud" (there wasn't), but simply because non-Republicans tended to use them and they don't want non-Republicans to be able to vote, racist overtones or not.
The US does not have a "national ID", we have collections of many different IDs in each independent State. And the Republicans in the States have thoroughly demonstrated that their goal is to prevent people from voting. These same Republicans who demand Voter ID laws one minute also vehemently oppose the idea of the Federal Government issuing universal free voter IDs, because the point is not to require IDs the point is to do it in such a way that they prevent the undesirables from voting. And that's why we can't have nice things.
Post by: TheContinentalOp on January 08, 2021, 07:55:57 AM
You watch fake news.
They are conspiracy nuts.
Post by: Imma on January 08, 2021, 08:41:29 AM
In my country everything is relatively easy. Every citizen can obtain ID, free of charge if you are low-income. You need a valid ID (passport or EU ID card) for nearly everything because it also contains your social security number. Almost everyone had one and if you don't, it's pretty easy to obtain. I worked in the passport office, I helped people who had been long-term homeless of off the grid on purpose and we can still give them back their ID. A driver's license is not an ID in here, only a permit to drive. Lots of people don't have one.
There is an issue with non-citizens from certain countries that want to become citizens. Sometimes the documents they need to prove their old identity to become a citizen are almost impossible to obtain and sometimes it happens that those people can not become citizens and therefore not vote.
Of course it's administratively complicated that the US is a federal state and not a unitary state but I'm not sure other federal states like Germany experience the same problems. It sounds like the issues are mainly cultural / historical. You can't truly make the voting process completely fair until those issues have been dealt with.
In my country, voting districts were abolished in 1918 because they were considered to be unfair to working class and middle class voters (because 1 district could represent 5 country estates or maybe 15.000 factory workers). We've had a one person - one vote system ever since. Although there are some disadvantages to that - we have dozens of political parties - it does represent the spectrum of political ideologies fairly. Maybe your country needs to get rid of the red/blue divide too. I imagine that if given a choice a lot of people would prefer parties that are lilac or purple.
Post by: SwordGuy on January 08, 2021, 08:52:39 AM
I am responsibly informed.
You watch fake news.
They are conspiracy nuts.
I'm not sure of your intent with this message, but it's slap-dab in the middle of some very accurate explanations of how Republicans suppress democratic and minority votes thru laws they pretend are for election security.
So, if you were claiming they were making this all up, you are completely wrong.
If you're referring to something else, ignore my comments.
Post by: sherr on January 08, 2021, 08:53:34 AM
Maybe your country needs to get rid of the red/blue divide too. I imagine that if given a choice a lot of people would prefer parties that are lilac or purple.
We absolutely do, the problem is that neither party is incentivized to engineer its own undoing. The most obvious way to achieve this goal is to move to ranked-choice voting (or a similar variant), which at least the State of Main has done, so perhaps there is hope.
Post by: SwordGuy on January 08, 2021, 08:58:33 AM
Maybe your country needs to get rid of the red/blue divide too. I imagine that if given a choice a lot of people would prefer parties that are lilac or purple.
We absolutely do, the problem is that neither party is incentivized to engineer its own undoing. The most obvious way to achieve this goal is to move to ranked-choice voting (or a similar variant), which at least the State of Main has done, so perhaps there is hope.
Tax the bejesus out of citizens who don't vote in the primaries. This will force the mass of people into the primaries and dilute the power of the radical elements who tend to dominate the candidate selection.
Right now, the radical elements in each party vote more in the primaries so the more radical candidates get chosen. This would move us to more centrist candidates.
Also, in the general election, add a "None of the above" option to each partisan race. If "None of the Above" gets a majority, none of the above gets a majority, none of the above get elected, all of those candidates are forbidden any position of public trust or responsibility for 10 years as having been deemed unfit for office by the electorate, and the political parties who put forth those candidates have to pay the full cost of new, rapidly held election for wasting the electorate's time with such piss-poor candidates. (Exceptions on the latter to only include those political parties whose candidates automatically qualify to be on the general ballot, those parties that must petition to get their candidate on the ballot are exempt if other parties are freely accepted.)
Post by: Adventine on January 08, 2021, 09:03:33 AM
(https://www.aec.gov.au/faqs/#:~:text=Yes%2C%20under%20federal%20electoral%20law,%2C%20by%2Delections%20and%20referendums)
Post by: sherr on January 08, 2021, 09:16:16 AM
In that environment, the stable game-theory state is that there are two large parties of roughly equal power who are competing. As soon as you introduce a powerful third party they will take more votes from the party that they are most similar to, and the *other* more dissimilar main party will always win by default. Even if there were four or more roughly-equal main parties, there is tremendous pressure for two of them to merge and therefore always win. It always devolves back down to two powerful parties always competing.
To fix that we can either move to a parliamentarian proportional-representation democracy, which requires rewriting large portions of the Constitution and seems completely infeasible right now, or we can fight in each State to move to ranked-choice voting. This is not the end-all of election reforms that we need, I think automatic registration and compulsory voting and such are all good ideas. But we need this too.
Post by: GuitarStv on January 08, 2021, 09:31:34 AM
Post by: Adventine on January 08, 2021, 09:36:12 AM
Post by: sherr on January 08, 2021, 09:36:51 AM
I don't think forcing people to vote who don't want to will strengthen a democracy.
It reduces extremism, which is the point, because most people by definition are not extremists. The people who get elected are better representations of the average citizen, which doesn't sound so bad to me. And even in Australia you're not required to vote for someone, just you have to turn in a ballot. Turn in a blank one if you want. But it makes people actually go vote, and makes states make voting easy if they don't want their voters to hate them, and makes politicians cater to the average person not the primary extremists.
Post by: OtherJen on January 08, 2021, 09:44:52 AM
It's more about removing the barriers that make it hard for people who want to vote. A compulsory voting system would help greatly with that.
Yeah, the word "compulsory" will not go over well with the Freeedom crowd (to put it mildly). Of course, that might mean that they all refuse to vote out of protest, and those of us who want a functioning democracy and not a fascist dictatorship could then move forward. Hmm.
Post by: Kris on January 08, 2021, 09:46:15 AM
It's more about removing the barriers that make it hard for people who want to vote. A compulsory voting system would help greatly with that.
Yeah, the word "compulsory" will not go over well with the Freeedom crowd (to put it mildly). Of course, that might mean that they all refuse to vote out of protest, and those of us who want a functioning democracy and not a fascist dictatorship could then move forward. Hmm.
Exactly. Not voting as an act of right-wing patriotism would probably be a pretty good outcome at this point.
Post by: Adventine on January 08, 2021, 09:49:12 AM
It's more about removing the barriers that make it hard for people who want to vote. A compulsory voting system would help greatly with that.
Yeah, the word "compulsory" will not go over well with the Freeedom crowd (to put it mildly). Of course, that might mean that they all refuse to vote out of protest, and those of us who want a functioning democracy and not a fascist dictatorship could then move forward. Hmm.
Hah! Not a bad scenario. As @sherr said, you don't have to actually vote for anyone, just turn in a ballot. A blank one, if you like.
How about rebranding '"compulsory" to something much more appealing, like "All-American"? That should do the trick ;)
Post by: SwordGuy on January 08, 2021, 10:20:49 AM
It's more about removing the barriers that make it hard for people who want to vote. A compulsory voting system would help greatly with that.
Yeah, the word "compulsory" will not go over well with the Freeedom crowd (to put it mildly). Of course, that might mean that they all refuse to vote out of protest, and those of us who want a functioning democracy and not a fascist dictatorship could then move forward. Hmm.
I did not suggest we make primary voting compulsory. THAT would be un-American.
I suggested taxing the bejesus out of them for not fulfilling their civic duty. :)
Post by: MudPuppy on January 08, 2021, 10:25:32 AM
Post by: Poundwise on January 08, 2021, 10:27:20 AM
Post by: sherr on January 08, 2021, 10:50:01 AM
It's more about removing the barriers that make it hard for people who want to vote. A compulsory voting system would help greatly with that.
Yeah, the word "compulsory" will not go over well with the Freeedom crowd (to put it mildly). Of course, that might mean that they all refuse to vote out of protest, and those of us who want a functioning democracy and not a fascist dictatorship could then move forward. Hmm.
I did not suggest we make primary voting compulsory. THAT would be un-American.
I suggested taxing the bejesus out of them for not fulfilling their civic duty. :)
Taxing people who don't vote is what compulsory voting is. In exactly the same way as the ACA "required" you to have insurance, because if you didn't you'd have to pay a fine. Unless someone's talking about throwing people in jail for not voting, but I don't think anyone has ever suggested that.
Post by: Psychstache on January 08, 2021, 11:04:53 AM
How about opt-out voter registration rather than compulsory voting? Getting out the vote will still be an issue, but universal registration at least reduces the complexity of voting. Voter registration made sense only at a time when they were trying to prevent undesirables, i.e. propertyless, nonwhite, non-male people from voting.
You say that as though there isn't still a large contingent of people who wish to prevent 'undesirables' from voting.
Post by: SwordGuy on January 08, 2021, 12:28:33 PM
How about opt-out voter registration rather than compulsory voting? Getting out the vote will still be an issue, but universal registration at least reduces the complexity of voting. Voter registration made sense only at a time when they were trying to prevent undesirables, i.e. propertyless, nonwhite, non-male people from voting.
You say that as though there isn't still a large contingent of people who wish to prevent 'undesirables' from voting.
Yep. My own GOP state legislature recently got their wrists slapped by the courts multiple times for attempting to do just that. And I have every expectation they will try again and again until we replace then with better quality people.
Post by: ixtap on January 08, 2021, 12:59:50 PM
It's more about removing the barriers that make it hard for people who want to vote. A compulsory voting system would help greatly with that.
Yeah, the word "compulsory" will not go over well with the Freeedom crowd (to put it mildly). Of course, that might mean that they all refuse to vote out of protest, and those of us who want a functioning democracy and not a fascist dictatorship could then move forward. Hmm.
I did not suggest we make primary voting compulsory. THAT would be un-American.
I suggested taxing the bejesus out of them for not fulfilling their civic duty. :)
Taxing people who don't vote is what compulsory voting is. In exactly the same way as the ACA "required" you to have insurance, because if you didn't you'd have to pay a fine. Unless someone's talking about throwing people in jail for not voting, but I don't think anyone has ever suggested that.
I never thought about how it was implemented, but after all the poll taxes (and make no mistake, in the US, voter ID laws tend to be just that) I kind of like the idea of flipping the tables.
What I would really like to see is better civics education. Just saw someone argue that the 25th doesn't have any mechanism for removing a president, only for replacing them if they die. I was as kind as I could be in suggesting that they go read the constitution.
Post by: Plina on January 08, 2021, 01:25:41 PM
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 08, 2021, 01:43:26 PM
I don’t see the point of registrering for voting. Sounds like a pain in the ass. All eligible voter here receive their voting card in the mail some time before the election date. Then they cab choose to vote beforehand in certain locations, by mail or on electionday. You need an id to vote but everyone got one because if you can’t basically function without one.
Depends. In most places you can register when you get your drivers license. When you change your address with that department they will ask if you want to change your voter registration address.
Post by: deborah on January 08, 2021, 02:00:39 PM
Post by: calimom on January 08, 2021, 02:15:01 PM
Post by: yachi on January 08, 2021, 02:22:12 PM
Compulsory voting (in either the primary or the general), while I think is a good idea and will decrease extremism, does not automatically solve the "red/blue only" problem. The problem is that we are not a parliamentarian democracy with proportional representation, each race is purely a competition between individuals where there is one first-past-the-post winner and everyone else gets nothing.
In that environment, the stable game-theory state is that there are two large parties of roughly equal power who are competing. As soon as you introduce a powerful third party they will take more votes from the party that they are most similar to, and the *other* more dissimilar main party will always win by default. Even if there were four or more roughly-equal main parties, there is tremendous pressure for two of them to merge and therefore always win. It always devolves back down to two powerful parties always competing.
To fix that we can either move to a parliamentarian proportional-representation democracy, which requires rewriting large portions of the Constitution and seems completely infeasible right now, or we can fight in each State to move to ranked-choice voting. This is not the end-all of election reforms that we need, I think automatic registration and compulsory voting and such are all good ideas. But we need this too.
Thanks for the Game-theory steady state explanation for our 2 party system. In Pennsylvania, independents are not allowed to vote in either Republican or Democrat primaries, but I think the option that makes the most sense in choosing a runner is ranked voting. The republican primaries had 4 or 5 normal candidates and one atypical guy. I feel like most people to voted for one of the 4 or 5 normal candidates voted against the atypical guy, and would have been happy with any of the normal candidates
Post by: American GenX on January 08, 2021, 02:24:29 PM
It's more about removing the barriers that make it hard for people who want to vote. A compulsory voting system would help greatly with that.
Yeah, the word "compulsory" will not go over well with the Freeedom crowd (to put it mildly). Of course, that might mean that they all refuse to vote out of protest, and those of us who want a functioning democracy and not a fascist dictatorship could then move forward. Hmm.
I did not suggest we make primary voting compulsory. THAT would be un-American.
I suggested taxing the bejesus out of them for not fulfilling their civic duty. :)
Both are terrible ideas. And these ideas are not going to fly anyway, so keep dreaming.
Post by: TheContinentalOp on January 08, 2021, 02:37:11 PM
I am responsibly informed.
You watch fake news.
They are conspiracy nuts.
I'm not sure of your intent with this message, but it's slap-dab in the middle of some very accurate explanations of how Republicans suppress democratic and minority votes thru laws they pretend are for election security.
So, if you were claiming they were making this all up, you are completely wrong.
If you're referring to something else, ignore my comments.
My comment wasn't directed at any particular conversation or argument. Just the observation that no one ever thinks they are the consumer of fake news or are a conspiracy nut. It's always the other guy. Much in the same way that almost everyone believes that they are an above average driver.
Post by: sherr on January 08, 2021, 02:49:24 PM
In Pennsylvania, independents are not allowed to vote in either Republican or Democrat primaries, but I think the option that makes the most sense in choosing a runner is ranked voting. The republican primaries had 4 or 5 normal candidates and one atypical guy. I feel like most people to voted for one of the 4 or 5 normal candidates voted against the atypical guy, and would have been happy with any of the normal candidates
It helps in primaries certainly, but not only primaries! Let's say a particular race is pretty full, and managed to attract a Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, and Green candidate. Normally people would correctly conclude that anything other than a Rep or Dem vote would be throwing away their vote, other than to make a statement, and they'd be correct because literally no one else other than the two main parties have a chance to win. But with ranked choice you can truly "vote your conscience" without downside.
Maybe some Dems and Reps would vote Libertarian first, and then Dem or Rep second. Or maybe Green first. Or, once people get used to the idea, a plethora of new parties will spring up. There are legislative barriers designed to keep out new parties certainly, but the biggest barrier currently is the certain knowledge that their efforts are doomed to failure and they'll never win. But with ranked choice voting the sky's the limit, the right candidate with the right message can win, regardless of which party they're from.
It would make 3rd (and 4th and 5th...) parties actually a real thing in the US. I'm hopeful that Mainers will like it and that it will start to catch on everywhere else.
Post by: ixtap on January 08, 2021, 02:51:44 PM
I am responsibly informed.
You watch fake news.
They are conspiracy nuts.
I'm not sure of your intent with this message, but it's slap-dab in the middle of some very accurate explanations of how Republicans suppress democratic and minority votes thru laws they pretend are for election security.
So, if you were claiming they were making this all up, you are completely wrong.
If you're referring to something else, ignore my comments.
My comment wasn't directed at any particular conversation or argument. Just the observation that no one ever thinks they are the consumer of fake news or are a conspiracy nut. It's always the other guy. Much in the same way that almost everyone believes that they are an above average driver.
Except that some, most, news can actually be verified with some time and critical thinking skills.
I am on a one person mission to erase that "An active DC police officer posted on a public Facebook page..." meme. Which officer? Where is the post? Nothing? Report it to the proper authorities and walk away. Don't spread hearsay.
Post by: OtherJen on January 08, 2021, 02:58:27 PM
I am responsibly informed.
You watch fake news.
They are conspiracy nuts.
I'm not sure of your intent with this message, but it's slap-dab in the middle of some very accurate explanations of how Republicans suppress democratic and minority votes thru laws they pretend are for election security.
So, if you were claiming they were making this all up, you are completely wrong.
If you're referring to something else, ignore my comments.
My comment wasn't directed at any particular conversation or argument. Just the observation that no one ever thinks they are the consumer of fake news or are a conspiracy nut. It's always the other guy. Much in the same way that almost everyone believes that they are an above average driver.
Well, I claim that there was no widescale voter fraud due to the staggering lack of evidence to suggest such an event and more than 60 court cases thrown out for lack of evidence and standing, all the way up to the Supreme Court. Those cases are easily researched and I have read some of the filed decisions.
Someone else claims that North Korea was bringing in boatloads of fake ballots and the voter numbers in Michigan were off by 300%, especially in Edison County (which doesn't exist) because Newsmax said it or they heard it from someone who knows someone who swears they saw the North Korean boats.
If you can't spot any difference here, you might want to check your own critical reasoning skills.
Post by: TheContinentalOp on January 08, 2021, 07:30:54 PM
I am responsibly informed.
You watch fake news.
They are conspiracy nuts.
I'm not sure of your intent with this message, but it's slap-dab in the middle of some very accurate explanations of how Republicans suppress democratic and minority votes thru laws they pretend are for election security.
So, if you were claiming they were making this all up, you are completely wrong.
If you're referring to something else, ignore my comments.
My comment wasn't directed at any particular conversation or argument. Just the observation that no one ever thinks they are the consumer of fake news or are a conspiracy nut. It's always the other guy. Much in the same way that almost everyone believes that they are an above average driver.
Well, I claim that there was no widescale voter fraud due to the staggering lack of evidence to suggest such an event and more than 60 court cases thrown out for lack of evidence and standing, all the way up to the Supreme Court. Those cases are easily researched and I have read some of the filed decisions.
Someone else claims that North Korea was bringing in boatloads of fake ballots and the voter numbers in Michigan were off by 300%, especially in Edison County (which doesn't exist) because Newsmax said it or they heard it from someone who knows someone who swears they saw the North Korean boats.
If you can't spot any difference here, you might want to check your own critical reasoning skills.
Of course some of the things you will believe will be correct. It would be pretty amazing if you were 100% wrong about everything.
Here we go: 51% of Republicans probably or definitely believed that the US found active weapons of mass destruction systems in Iraq.
https://www.politico.com/story/2015/01/poll-republicans-wmds-iraq-114016
And to be fair to the other side: 52% of Democrats probably or definitely believed that the Russians tampered with vote tallies to get Trump elected in 2016.
https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/815256370958237696/photo/1
It's always very easy to point fingers at how foolish the other guy is. But what are the odds that your own beliefs are 100% correct?
But you do research! Dig deep for the truth! Search out authoritative sources and don't fall for conspiracy theories! Of course you are right. It's the other fellow who is wrong.
Just like the 90%+ of the population that believe they are above average drivers.
Post by: simmias on January 09, 2021, 03:41:55 AM
Post by: rosarugosa on January 09, 2021, 04:56:56 AM
In Pennsylvania, independents are not allowed to vote in either Republican or Democrat primaries, but I think the option that makes the most sense in choosing a runner is ranked voting. The republican primaries had 4 or 5 normal candidates and one atypical guy. I feel like most people to voted for one of the 4 or 5 normal candidates voted against the atypical guy, and would have been happy with any of the normal candidates
It helps in primaries certainly, but not only primaries! Let's say a particular race is pretty full, and managed to attract a Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, and Green candidate. Normally people would correctly conclude that anything other than a Rep or Dem vote would be throwing away their vote, other than to make a statement, and they'd be correct because literally no one else other than the two main parties have a chance to win. But with ranked choice you can truly "vote your conscience" without downside.
Maybe some Dems and Reps would vote Libertarian first, and then Dem or Rep second. Or maybe Green first. Or, once people get used to the idea, a plethora of new parties will spring up. There are legislative barriers designed to keep out new parties certainly, but the biggest barrier currently is the certain knowledge that their efforts are doomed to failure and they'll never win. But with ranked choice voting the sky's the limit, the right candidate with the right message can win, regardless of which party they're from.
It would make 3rd (and 4th and 5th...) parties actually a real thing in the US. I'm hopeful that Mainers will like it and that it will start to catch on everywhere else.
Unfortunately, Ranked Choice Voting was a ballot question in MA this past election and failed to pass. I believe this was primarily due to a failure to understand it by most people.
Post by: Psychstache on January 09, 2021, 08:16:13 AM
In Pennsylvania, independents are not allowed to vote in either Republican or Democrat primaries, but I think the option that makes the most sense in choosing a runner is ranked voting. The republican primaries had 4 or 5 normal candidates and one atypical guy. I feel like most people to voted for one of the 4 or 5 normal candidates voted against the atypical guy, and would have been happy with any of the normal candidates
It helps in primaries certainly, but not only primaries! Let's say a particular race is pretty full, and managed to attract a Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, and Green candidate. Normally people would correctly conclude that anything other than a Rep or Dem vote would be throwing away their vote, other than to make a statement, and they'd be correct because literally no one else other than the two main parties have a chance to win. But with ranked choice you can truly "vote your conscience" without downside.
Maybe some Dems and Reps would vote Libertarian first, and then Dem or Rep second. Or maybe Green first. Or, once people get used to the idea, a plethora of new parties will spring up. There are legislative barriers designed to keep out new parties certainly, but the biggest barrier currently is the certain knowledge that their efforts are doomed to failure and they'll never win. But with ranked choice voting the sky's the limit, the right candidate with the right message can win, regardless of which party they're from.
It would make 3rd (and 4th and 5th...) parties actually a real thing in the US. I'm hopeful that Mainers will like it and that it will start to catch on everywhere else.
Unfortunately, Ranked Choice Voting was a ballot question in MA this past election and failed to pass. I believe this was primarily due to a failure to understand it by most people.
I like the ballot measure that alaska just passed: a single non-partisan primary, top 4 candidates advance to a ranked choice general.
Post by: OtherJen on January 09, 2021, 09:56:17 AM
In Pennsylvania, independents are not allowed to vote in either Republican or Democrat primaries, but I think the option that makes the most sense in choosing a runner is ranked voting. The republican primaries had 4 or 5 normal candidates and one atypical guy. I feel like most people to voted for one of the 4 or 5 normal candidates voted against the atypical guy, and would have been happy with any of the normal candidates
It helps in primaries certainly, but not only primaries! Let's say a particular race is pretty full, and managed to attract a Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, and Green candidate. Normally people would correctly conclude that anything other than a Rep or Dem vote would be throwing away their vote, other than to make a statement, and they'd be correct because literally no one else other than the two main parties have a chance to win. But with ranked choice you can truly "vote your conscience" without downside.
Maybe some Dems and Reps would vote Libertarian first, and then Dem or Rep second. Or maybe Green first. Or, once people get used to the idea, a plethora of new parties will spring up. There are legislative barriers designed to keep out new parties certainly, but the biggest barrier currently is the certain knowledge that their efforts are doomed to failure and they'll never win. But with ranked choice voting the sky's the limit, the right candidate with the right message can win, regardless of which party they're from.
It would make 3rd (and 4th and 5th...) parties actually a real thing in the US. I'm hopeful that Mainers will like it and that it will start to catch on everywhere else.
Unfortunately, Ranked Choice Voting was a ballot question in MA this past election and failed to pass. I believe this was primarily due to a failure to understand it by most people.
I like the ballot measure that alaska just passed: a single non-partisan primary, top 4 candidates advance to a ranked choice general.
Ooh, that’s an interesting idea!
Post by: TheContinentalOp on January 09, 2021, 10:01:24 AM
Almost half of those people are actually above average drivers, though.
That is true. But at least 44% of the drivers who think they are above average, aren't. People should really be more humble.
Here's another: 90% of college professors think they are above average in teaching ability. And two-thirds rank themselves in the top quarter.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/he.36919771703
Post by: ChrisLansing on January 09, 2021, 02:44:21 PM
1. The govt. lies to us pretty regularly. I can go back to Nixon. People a bit older than me can go back to the Gulf Of Tonkin incident. Older people can go back further. People bit younger might have to start with WsMD. Each generation is lied to by the combined forces of govt. and the media, and this breaks down trust in a broad, general way, making the climate ripe of fake news and conspiracy theories.
2. I grew up pre-internet. There were 3 tv networks and a couple dozen newspapers of recoord. They all reported more or less the same thing - whether true or false. It was kind of a bubble, but at least most people were in the same bubble. The far left/right wacko news sources were so far out that few took them seriously. We wern't as polarized. We didn't have to entertain the idea that Polio was a hoax.
3. Today there are dozens of bubbles. Many overlap but they have their boundries. You litterally never have to hear/read/watch news you don'dt agree with. Fox failing to praise Trump sufficietly? Go to Newsmax. NPR not sufficiently tough on Trump? Go to Rachel Maddow.
4. The speed of news is such that we feel we have to have a position on every subject with 15 minutes (or is it seconds?) of first hearing about it. Many people stake out a position based on where their "community" or "camp" stands w/o the slightest attempt at fact checking. Trump said it - its true/it's a lie. Pelosi said it - it's true/it's a lie. I know where my tribe stands, therefore I know where I stand.
5. Having a hissy fit after an election is becomiing an American tradition. We cannot accept defeat with grace. We've become a nation of spoiled children having tantrums. The tantrums don't go on for days or weeks, but for years.
6. We're so poloarized that we can't see anything but pure good or pure evil. If you have TDS try to come up with one good thing Trump did or at least tried to do. If you hate the "libtards" say one good thing about AOC. Many people are simply incapable of doing this.
I don't have any solutions to the OP's problem. Frankly I suspect it's a lost cause.
Post by: clarkfan1979 on January 09, 2021, 02:46:20 PM
They are heavily "investing" in the Iraqi dinar because it's going to go 100x. My brother is also really into buying fake Cryptocurrency that isn't worth anything. He is unable to get any real money for it from the seller. He claims he has over a million dollars in Crypto and tries to make real estate offers with the Crypto. When real estate agents laugh them out of the room, they basically say, "People just don't understand Crypto"
My mother's sister just died of COVID-19 about 3 weeks ago. It was a pretty horrible death. She still refuses to wear a mask and says the whole thing is a hoax.
I honestly do not talk to my brother or mother anymore on the phone. It's not possible for them to have a regular conversation without talking about the conspiracy theories. We see each other for a few days a year in person and don't really talk about much. We just go through the motions. My mother and brother talk about 5 times/day about the current post from QANON.
Post by: Imma on January 09, 2021, 03:20:10 PM
I heard the other day that an acquaintance, a healthy young woman, is in the ICU with Covid. I know her husband is into conspiracies too. I wonder if seeing his wife suffer will change his mind about the Covid "hoax".
Post by: clarkfan1979 on January 10, 2021, 06:31:52 AM
I'm so sorry for you @clarkfan1979 . I wonder how your family explains away the sad fact of your aunt's death? That seems like pretty clear proof that Covid is a thing. Unfortunately I have experienced a death from Covid in my close family too, and my impression is that the symptoms of severe Covid don't resemble any other disease.
I heard the other day that an acquaintance, a healthy young woman, is in the ICU with Covid. I know her husband is into conspiracies too. I wonder if seeing his wife suffer will change his mind about the Covid "hoax".
My mom does believe that her sister died of COVID-19. However, she also believes that Hydroxychloroquine is 100% effective in preventing COVID-19 death. When the doctors would not give her sister Hydroxychoroquine, it further strengthened her beliefs that the government is purposefully suppressing effective health treatment for COVID-19.
My mother had a brother die of cancer his early 40's. They spent alot of time together in the last 3-6 months of his life and both concluded that a cure for cancer exists, but there is too much money to be made in chemotherapy, so the real cure will never see the light of day.
If spoke with my mother, which I don't, I would ask her about the vaccine. Her likely response would be the the vaccine is not a real treatment, but some sort of poison or tracking device that is being forced upon the people.
She gives really bad health advice to people and pretty much considers herself to be a self-taught M.D., which is borderline delusional. I am currently about 20 pounds overweight and I have been slowly cutting back on the sweets and alcohol. When my mother noticed this, she made unsolicited comments on the best strategies for me to lose weight. She is 5'6" and about 50 pounds overweight. I really don't understand how someone who is 50 pounds overweight can give unsolicited weight loss advice to someone who is 20 pounds overweight. According to her, I need to be doing what she is doing. No thanks, because I don't want to be 50 pounds overweight.
Post by: Imma on January 10, 2021, 10:44:57 AM
Post by: FrugalToque on January 10, 2021, 11:40:13 AM
I don't see what's wrong with voter ID laws? I think almost every country in the world except for the US requires (government-issued) ID to vote.
Canada doesn't and we have ZERO problem with voter fraud.
Of course, the U.S. also has basically ZERO problem with voter fraud, too. Did you know that?
Voter ID laws are just a way to keep poor people - who don't have driver's licenses, often - from voting. Pure disenfranchisement, given that - again - there is basically ZERO voter fraud.
Toque.
Post by: FrugalToque on January 10, 2021, 11:43:33 AM
5. Having a hissy fit after an election is becomiing an American tradition. We cannot accept defeat with grace. We've become a nation of spoiled children having tantrums. The tantrums don't go on for days or weeks, but for years.
I won't have a go at your other points, but this is a little too much "both sides" for me.
After Al Gore and George Bush went neck and neck, and the Supreme Court basically cancelled the vote counting, Al Gore conceded for the sake of the nation.
Hillary Clinton conceded.
Donald Trump incited his followers to insurrection and they invaded your seat of government.
Yeah, people were angry about Florida. People were angry that Clinton got more votes than Trump and they even protested.
But that's nothing compared to what we just saw.
So let's not do "both sides throw hissy fits". That doesn't fit the evidence and more in the vein of putting Trump's god-awful racism in the same league as Michael Moore trying to get everyone health care.
Toque.
Post by: FrugalToque on January 10, 2021, 11:46:02 AM
I don’t see the point of registrering for voting. Sounds like a pain in the ass. All eligible voter here receive their voting card in the mail some time before the election date. Then they cab choose to vote beforehand in certain locations, by mail or on electionday. You need an id to vote but everyone got one because if you can’t basically function without one.Same here in Canada.
When you file your taxes, you check a box to forward your info to Elections Canada.
That updates their files so you get your voter card in the mail for the right address.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 10, 2021, 12:26:46 PM
I don’t see the point of registrering for voting. Sounds like a pain in the ass. All eligible voter here receive their voting card in the mail some time before the election date. Then they cab choose to vote beforehand in certain locations, by mail or on electionday. You need an id to vote but everyone got one because if you can’t basically function without one.Same here in Canada.
When you file your taxes, you check a box to forward your info to Elections Canada.
That updates their files so you get your voter card in the mail for the right address.
Just to add, filing taxes is important for low income people so they can receive HST relief, child benefits, etc., so this one easy way for poor people to register to vote (there are other ways). 2 boxes, first are you a Canadian citizen, second for the info to Elections Canada. Elections Canada works hard to encourage people to register to vote, and to vote.
Post by: PurpleYogurt on January 10, 2021, 01:22:58 PM
She feels millions of people voted for him and the votes were changed. My stance so far is listening to her go on about this and throw in a few of my own thoughts when I can get a word in. She turns into a dragon defending him. Maybe it's simply not worth saying anything and just let her ramble on. I mean she is entitled to her opinion but my god, this woman loves to go on about politics. Probably why I don't.
Any experiences either way?
Post by: SwordGuy on January 10, 2021, 02:30:40 PM
As to handling parents who believe fake news do you ignore and change the subject or state your position? I'm going to my parents soon and can't handle her take on "that poor, poor man" and "he's only tried to help the people". This one subject could be the thing that ends our relationship. That's how passionate she is about it.
She feels millions of people voted for him and the votes were changed. My stance so far is listening to her go on about this and throw in a few of my own thoughts when I can get a word in. She turns into a dragon defending him. Maybe it's simply not worth saying anything and just let her ramble on. I mean she is entitled to her opinion but my god, this woman loves to go on about politics. Probably why I don't.
Any experiences either way?
"Mom, I love you. Trump is criminal scum. The facts are clear. You have chosen to live in a land of make-believe about this. That is your privilege. I am not going to spend my precious time with you listening to utter crap supporting that criminal scum pour out of your mouth. Shut up on this topic and we can have a wonderful visit and time together, or we leave. Your call. That's what freedom is all about. Making your choices and living with the consequences. You need to decide whether you prefer to defend Trump or visit with us. "
Yes, it's harsh. But folks like this typically just WILL NOT LISTEN otherwise.
Best of luck. But there's simply no reason to spend precious hours of your life listening to utter drivel based on lies.
Post by: ixtap on January 10, 2021, 02:35:33 PM
I am not prepared to listen to any of this claptrap and continue to stay calm enough to have a relationship with these people, so I am avoiding them.
Post by: American GenX on January 10, 2021, 03:08:15 PM
As to handling parents who believe fake news do you ignore and change the subject or state your position? I'm going to my parents soon and can't handle her take on "that poor, poor man" and "he's only tried to help the people". This one subject could be the thing that ends our relationship.
You should put family above politics. Trump will be out of office soon enough, so don't let him ruin your relationship. Just avoid that discussion, change the subject, or whatever. Most of this should blow over soon enough after the media gets all they can out of it.
Post by: ixtap on January 10, 2021, 03:20:40 PM
As to handling parents who believe fake news do you ignore and change the subject or state your position? I'm going to my parents soon and can't handle her take on "that poor, poor man" and "he's only tried to help the people". This one subject could be the thing that ends our relationship.
You should put family above politics. Trump will be out of office soon enough, so don't let him ruin your relationship. Just avoid that discussion, change the subject, or whatever. Most of this should blow over soon enough after the media gets all they can out of it.
That really doesn't explain the last 12 years of me having to listen to the racist claptrap and how stupid liberals are and all the rest. You think all those people are going to suddenly become reasonable and stop spreading their lies because Trump left office? They are just going to go back to ignoring politics again?
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on January 10, 2021, 04:34:14 PM
Votes are in Biden wins. - nope not the end of it.
Supreme court rejects claims of voter fraud - thought that was the end of it.
And then I find out my parents are visiting riots/ protest/ whatever at the capital. Surely this is the end of it....
But I doubt it at this point. What's next?
Post by: SwordGuy on January 10, 2021, 04:58:03 PM
I keep thinking it's over.
Votes are in Biden wins. - nope not the end of it.
Supreme court rejects claims of voter fraud - thought that was the end of it.
And then I find out my parents are visiting riots/ protest/ whatever at the capital. Surely this is the end of it....
But I doubt it at this point. What's next?
Post by: SwordGuy on January 10, 2021, 04:59:27 PM
Post by: ixtap on January 10, 2021, 05:01:52 PM
I keep thinking it's over.
Votes are in Biden wins. - nope not the end of it.
Supreme court rejects claims of voter fraud - thought that was the end of it.
And then I find out my parents are visiting riots/ protest/ whatever at the capital. Surely this is the end of it....
But I doubt it at this point. What's next?
I am about there, but DH is upstairs calling his parents. He has spent hours already trying to figure out this call, but I cannot be in the room. He never talks to his parents two weeks in a row, but I guess he needs to try now rather than letting it fester?
Post by: Poundwise on January 10, 2021, 09:23:02 PM
As to handling parents who believe fake news do you ignore and change the subject or state your position? I'm going to my parents soon and can't handle her take on "that poor, poor man" and "he's only tried to help the people". This one subject could be the thing that ends our relationship. That's how passionate she is about it.
She feels millions of people voted for him and the votes were changed. My stance so far is listening to her go on about this and throw in a few of my own thoughts when I can get a word in. She turns into a dragon defending him. Maybe it's simply not worth saying anything and just let her ramble on. I mean she is entitled to her opinion but my god, this woman loves to go on about politics. Probably why I don't.
Any experiences either way?
I just saw this article; maybe it will be helpful? https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-s-qanon-followers-are-dangerous-cult-how-save-someone-ncna1239828
I have had some success with Trump voters by not cornering them, and instead giving them an exit towards me, if that makes sense. I haven't had any success attacking their king straight on, but here and there I can get them to concede a little on some issues.
Post by: Plina on January 10, 2021, 10:29:29 PM
I don’t see the point of registrering for voting. Sounds like a pain in the ass. All eligible voter here receive their voting card in the mail some time before the election date. Then they cab choose to vote beforehand in certain locations, by mail or on electionday. You need an id to vote but everyone got one because if you can’t basically function without one.Same here in Canada.
When you file your taxes, you check a box to forward your info to Elections Canada.
That updates their files so you get your voter card in the mail for the right address.
Just to add, filing taxes is important for low income people so they can receive HST relief, child benefits, etc., so this one easy way for poor people to register to vote (there are other ways). 2 boxes, first are you a Canadian citizen, second for the info to Elections Canada. Elections Canada works hard to encourage people to register to vote, and to vote.
Our population registration done by the tax authorities handles that automatically. When you change adress, you have to notify the population registration. Our election authority sends out the voter card to all voters. Depending on nationality etc, you can vote in different elections. Your nationality is registered in the population registration. Your adress determines in which local and regional elections you can vote in.
Post by: Imma on January 11, 2021, 01:25:40 AM
I don't see what's wrong with voter ID laws? I think almost every country in the world except for the US requires (government-issued) ID to vote.
Canada doesn't and we have ZERO problem with voter fraud.
Of course, the U.S. also has basically ZERO problem with voter fraud, too. Did you know that?
Voter ID laws are just a way to keep poor people - who don't have driver's licenses, often - from voting. Pure disenfranchisement, given that - again - there is basically ZERO voter fraud.
Toque.
In my country, the Netherlands, voter fraud did actually happen in the 21st century, and it happened close enough to my hometown that I knew the people involved. It was a one-man-plan, not a coordinated thing, for a non-important election, and he wasn't able to get elected even after the fraud, but it happened. So no, I don't trust anyone when it comes to voting. I believe in thorough procedures to protect the integrity of the election and one part of that is proper identification of voters.
We've discussed this over the last couple of pages and it seems that in the US, at this point, requiring voter ID would cause disenfranchement, that's obviously not the result I'm suggesting. In other countries in the world, like my own, every citizen has an ID card and they are easy to obtain should you lose them or anything like that. If you are low-income you get it for free. You literally can't live here without it, you need it to get a job as well. In that case it doesn't lead to voter disenfranchement to require ID. Like in @Plina 's country (I think Sweden?) everyone eligible to vote gets invited to vote, you go to the polling station with that invite and your ID, everything is checked, if it's all ok you get a paper ballot to vote.
A driver's license is not ID in here by the way, just a card that allows you to drive. I don't even have one myself. We can choose between a passport or a EU ID card (or both).
Post by: FrugalToque on January 11, 2021, 05:05:04 AM
I don't see what's wrong with voter ID laws? I think almost every country in the world except for the US requires (government-issued) ID to vote.
Canada doesn't and we have ZERO problem with voter fraud.
Of course, the U.S. also has basically ZERO problem with voter fraud, too. Did you know that?
Voter ID laws are just a way to keep poor people - who don't have driver's licenses, often - from voting. Pure disenfranchisement, given that - again - there is basically ZERO voter fraud.
Toque.
In my country, the Netherlands, voter fraud did actually happen in the 21st century, and it happened close enough to my hometown that I knew the people involved. It was a one-man-plan, not a coordinated thing, for a non-important election, and he wasn't able to get elected even after the fraud, but it happened. So no, I don't trust anyone when it comes to voting. I believe in thorough procedures to protect the integrity of the election and one part of that is proper identification of voters.
We've discussed this over the last couple of pages and it seems that in the US, at this point, requiring voter ID would cause disenfranchement, that's obviously not the result I'm suggesting. In other countries in the world, like my own, every citizen has an ID card and they are easy to obtain should you lose them or anything like that. If you are low-income you get it for free. You literally can't live here without it, you need it to get a job as well. In that case it doesn't lead to voter disenfranchement to require ID. Like in @Plina 's country (I think Sweden?) everyone eligible to vote gets invited to vote, you go to the polling station with that invite and your ID, everything is checked, if it's all ok you get a paper ballot to vote.
A driver's license is not ID in here by the way, just a card that allows you to drive. I don't even have one myself. We can choose between a passport or a EU ID card (or both).
The trouble in the U.S. is that they make the voter ID hard to get. It has to be "some kind of government issued ID" but they don't issue to poor people, or they make it hard to get, or they make it expensive. So it just ends working out, "Hey man, just use your driver's license" and a large number of poor people sigh, turn around, and don't get to vote.
In Canada, we don't need ID, just the voter registration card that they send to us a month or two before they election. This seems to already cut voter fraud down to so close to zero that we never even worry about it.
It also helps that we don't allow whichever part is in government to decide how to run the elections. That's done by a non-partisan org called "Elections Canada".
Post by: Metalcat on January 11, 2021, 05:27:08 AM
I don't see what's wrong with voter ID laws? I think almost every country in the world except for the US requires (government-issued) ID to vote.
Canada doesn't and we have ZERO problem with voter fraud.
Of course, the U.S. also has basically ZERO problem with voter fraud, too. Did you know that?
Voter ID laws are just a way to keep poor people - who don't have driver's licenses, often - from voting. Pure disenfranchisement, given that - again - there is basically ZERO voter fraud.
Toque.
In my country, the Netherlands, voter fraud did actually happen in the 21st century, and it happened close enough to my hometown that I knew the people involved. It was a one-man-plan, not a coordinated thing, for a non-important election, and he wasn't able to get elected even after the fraud, but it happened. So no, I don't trust anyone when it comes to voting. I believe in thorough procedures to protect the integrity of the election and one part of that is proper identification of voters.
We've discussed this over the last couple of pages and it seems that in the US, at this point, requiring voter ID would cause disenfranchement, that's obviously not the result I'm suggesting. In other countries in the world, like my own, every citizen has an ID card and they are easy to obtain should you lose them or anything like that. If you are low-income you get it for free. You literally can't live here without it, you need it to get a job as well. In that case it doesn't lead to voter disenfranchement to require ID. Like in @Plina 's country (I think Sweden?) everyone eligible to vote gets invited to vote, you go to the polling station with that invite and your ID, everything is checked, if it's all ok you get a paper ballot to vote.
A driver's license is not ID in here by the way, just a card that allows you to drive. I don't even have one myself. We can choose between a passport or a EU ID card (or both).
The trouble in the U.S. is that they make the voter ID hard to get. It has to be "some kind of government issued ID" but they don't issue to poor people, or they make it hard to get, or they make it expensive. So it just ends working out, "Hey man, just use your driver's license" and a large number of poor people sigh, turn around, and don't get to vote.
In Canada, we don't need ID, just the voter registration card that they send to us a month or two before they election. This seems to already cut voter fraud down to so close to zero that we never even worry about it.
It also helps that we don't allow whichever part is in government to decide how to run the elections. That's done by a non-partisan org called "Elections Canada".
We don't???
I've always been asked for my ID in addition to my voter card. I think it even says on the voter card to also bring ID.
Am I missing something???
Also, I had a bitch of a time getting ID when I was on and off homeless. I had to illegally use my grandmother's address for years.
Post by: OtherJen on January 11, 2021, 05:50:50 AM
I don't see what's wrong with voter ID laws? I think almost every country in the world except for the US requires (government-issued) ID to vote.
Canada doesn't and we have ZERO problem with voter fraud.
Of course, the U.S. also has basically ZERO problem with voter fraud, too. Did you know that?
Voter ID laws are just a way to keep poor people - who don't have driver's licenses, often - from voting. Pure disenfranchisement, given that - again - there is basically ZERO voter fraud.
Toque.
In my country, the Netherlands, voter fraud did actually happen in the 21st century, and it happened close enough to my hometown that I knew the people involved. It was a one-man-plan, not a coordinated thing, for a non-important election, and he wasn't able to get elected even after the fraud, but it happened. So no, I don't trust anyone when it comes to voting. I believe in thorough procedures to protect the integrity of the election and one part of that is proper identification of voters.
We've discussed this over the last couple of pages and it seems that in the US, at this point, requiring voter ID would cause disenfranchement, that's obviously not the result I'm suggesting. In other countries in the world, like my own, every citizen has an ID card and they are easy to obtain should you lose them or anything like that. If you are low-income you get it for free. You literally can't live here without it, you need it to get a job as well. In that case it doesn't lead to voter disenfranchement to require ID. Like in @Plina 's country (I think Sweden?) everyone eligible to vote gets invited to vote, you go to the polling station with that invite and your ID, everything is checked, if it's all ok you get a paper ballot to vote.
A driver's license is not ID in here by the way, just a card that allows you to drive. I don't even have one myself. We can choose between a passport or a EU ID card (or both).
The trouble in the U.S. is that they make the voter ID hard to get. It has to be "some kind of government issued ID" but they don't issue to poor people, or they make it hard to get, or they make it expensive. So it just ends working out, "Hey man, just use your driver's license" and a large number of poor people sigh, turn around, and don't get to vote.
In Canada, we don't need ID, just the voter registration card that they send to us a month or two before they election. This seems to already cut voter fraud down to so close to zero that we never even worry about it.
It also helps that we don't allow whichever part is in government to decide how to run the elections. That's done by a non-partisan org called "Elections Canada".
We don't???
I've always been asked for my ID in addition to my voter card. I think it even says on the voter card to also bring ID.
Am I missing something???
Also, I had a bitch of a time getting ID when I was on and off homeless. I had to illegally use my grandmother's address for years.
Is there an option to vote without ID? Here in Michigan, we ask for voter ID but if the person doesn’t have proper ID at all or forgot to bring it, they can sign a legally binding affidavit on their ballot application affirming legally that they are who they say they are. All affidavits are numbered with both the voter and ballot numbers and saved with the rest of the paper trail in case there’s an issue. If they’re willing to sign and in the electronic poll book, they can vote.
It would be very difficult to pull off large-scale voter fraud here. Even at the smaller scale, you’d need basically the municipal clerk’s office and poll workers to be in on it. There were 6 workers of different party affiliations per precinct when I worked the polls in November. The absentee ballot counters in my city worked in several teams of four (also of different parties). Both processes were monitored continuously by poll watchers and challengers. All of those people acted as checks and balances.
Post by: FrugalToque on January 11, 2021, 07:20:31 AM
In Canada, we don't need ID, just the voter registration card that they send to us a month or two before they election. This seems to already cut voter fraud down to so close to zero that we never even worry about it.
It also helps that we don't allow whichever part is in government to decide how to run the elections. That's done by a non-partisan org called "Elections Canada".
We don't???
I've always been asked for my ID in addition to my voter card. I think it even says on the voter card to also bring ID.
Am I missing something???
Also, I had a bitch of a time getting ID when I was on and off homeless. I had to illegally use my grandmother's address for years.
https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e
There are a lot of ways to prove your identity, including a "utility statement" from your home that has your name on it.
- employee card
residential lease or sub-lease
utility bill (e.g.: electricity; water; telecommunications services including telephone, cable or satellite)
I guess I should have said you don't need photo ID, as there's a long list of other options. Also, you can just have some authorized person "vouch" for you and you "declare" your identity and address.
Toque.
Post by: sherr on January 11, 2021, 07:32:31 AM
Is there an option to vote without ID? Here in Michigan, we ask for voter ID but if the person doesn’t have proper ID at all or forgot to bring it, they can sign a legally binding affidavit on their ballot application affirming legally that they are who they say they are. All affidavits are numbered with both the voter and ballot numbers and saved with the rest of the paper trail in case there’s an issue. If they’re willing to sign and in the electronic poll book, they can vote.
Depends on your state. Most states DO require ID at the polls. All states require (of course) you to prove your citizenship when you register to vote, which is not even a separate thing in the Netherlands or most other countries. There are plenty of gates here in the US to ensure that only citizens are voting, which is why by-and-large only citizens are voting.
Post by: GuitarStv on January 11, 2021, 07:33:55 AM
In Canada, we don't need ID, just the voter registration card that they send to us a month or two before they election. This seems to already cut voter fraud down to so close to zero that we never even worry about it.
It also helps that we don't allow whichever part is in government to decide how to run the elections. That's done by a non-partisan org called "Elections Canada".
We don't???
I've always been asked for my ID in addition to my voter card. I think it even says on the voter card to also bring ID.
Am I missing something???
Also, I had a bitch of a time getting ID when I was on and off homeless. I had to illegally use my grandmother's address for years.
https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e
There are a lot of ways to prove your identity, including a "utility statement" from your home that has your name on it.That page has about a hundred other options.
- employee card
residential lease or sub-lease
utility bill (e.g.: electricity; water; telecommunications services including telephone, cable or satellite)
I guess I should have said you don't need photo ID, as there's a long list of other options. Also, you can just have some authorized person "vouch" for you and you "declare" your identity and address.
Toque.
Yep. This is because the goal in Canada is to verify the identification of the person . . . not to make it hard for the person to vote. The US would have implemented such a policy long ago if there was real interest in verifying identification. I truly believe that most of the American voter laws are in place simply to limit votes.
Post by: former player on January 11, 2021, 07:55:22 AM
Post by: OtherJen on January 11, 2021, 08:42:51 AM
Going back to the subject of handling Trumpist parents (or any other person in your close group) the advice I heard was to move the conversation away from the fake beliefs and onto core values. Get them to think back to their previous state by asking them about the teachings of Jesus Christ, or their love for their family, or something good that they did in the world, and so on. It's not an immediate fix, but the advantages are that you are not talking about Trump or QAnon or whatever batshit theory they are currently imbibing on Facebook, and you are talking about things that ground them in reality and the good parts of their lives. The hope is that eventually real life will start to become uppermost in their dealings with the world again, and even if it doesn't at least you have a safe space for non-contentious discussion.
That's how my mom has been able to remain on speaking terms with her brother (who went down the Fox News/Limbaugh/NRA rabbit hole years ago).
Post by: ixtap on January 11, 2021, 09:52:35 AM
Going back to the subject of handling Trumpist parents (or any other person in your close group) the advice I heard was to move the conversation away from the fake beliefs and onto core values. Get them to think back to their previous state by asking them about the teachings of Jesus Christ, or their love for their family, or something good that they did in the world, and so on. It's not an immediate fix, but the advantages are that you are not talking about Trump or QAnon or whatever batshit theory they are currently imbibing on Facebook, and you are talking about things that ground them in reality and the good parts of their lives. The hope is that eventually real life will start to become uppermost in their dealings with the world again, and even if it doesn't at least you have a safe space for non-contentious discussion.
This works with some family members, but with FIL, the only thing that works is keeping him focused on talking about what he can touch right now. Games work well in person, but the man can make a political rant out of any topic.
Post by: the_fixer on January 11, 2021, 12:54:21 PM
If he brings anything political up on the phone she tries to change the subject and if that does not work she tells him she is busy and has to go.
So far the only thing that seems to help is we purchased a year of ancestry.com for him at Christmas (hoping it would give him something to do during winter/ Covid) and she will ask him to tell her about what he has found and he cheers up and talks about his research.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: SwordGuy on January 11, 2021, 01:15:15 PM
So far the only thing that seems to help is we purchased a year of ancestry.com for him at Christmas (hoping it would give him something to do during winter/ Covid) and she will ask him to tell her about what he has found and he cheers up and talks about his research.
Maybe you'll get lucky and discover a number of non-white ancestors and he'll decide supporting white supremacists might not be as wise as he thought...
Post by: SunnyDays on January 11, 2021, 03:02:23 PM
So far the only thing that seems to help is we purchased a year of ancestry.com for him at Christmas (hoping it would give him something to do during winter/ Covid) and she will ask him to tell her about what he has found and he cheers up and talks about his research.
Maybe you'll get lucky and discover a number of non-white ancestors and he'll decide supporting white supremacists might not be as wise as he thought...
Ha ha, that’s exactly what crossed my mind. In fact, I thought that’s where the post was heading!
Post by: ixtap on January 11, 2021, 03:05:46 PM
So far the only thing that seems to help is we purchased a year of ancestry.com for him at Christmas (hoping it would give him something to do during winter/ Covid) and she will ask him to tell her about what he has found and he cheers up and talks about his research.
Maybe you'll get lucky and discover a number of non-white ancestors and he'll decide supporting white supremacists might not be as wise as he thought...
FIL just declared that it proved he wasn't racist and went right on spewing racist crap.
Post by: the_fixer on January 11, 2021, 03:59:25 PM
Wouldn’t surprise me, she has been told all of her life that they are English and Irish but my wife tans easily and has a light olive complexion.So far the only thing that seems to help is we purchased a year of ancestry.com for him at Christmas (hoping it would give him something to do during winter/ Covid) and she will ask him to tell her about what he has found and he cheers up and talks about his research.
Maybe you'll get lucky and discover a number of non-white ancestors and he'll decide supporting white supremacists might not be as wise as he thought...
I think for his B day we are going to give him an ancestry DNA kit :)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: partgypsy on January 11, 2021, 05:38:21 PM
Going back to the subject of handling Trumpist parents (or any other person in your close group) the advice I heard was to move the conversation away from the fake beliefs and onto core values. Get them to think back to their previous state by asking them about the teachings of Jesus Christ, or their love for their family, or something good that they did in the world, and so on. It's not an immediate fix, but the advantages are that you are not talking about Trump or QAnon or whatever batshit theory they are currently imbibing on Facebook, and you are talking about things that ground them in reality and the good parts of their lives. The hope is that eventually real life will start to become uppermost in their dealings with the world again, and even if it doesn't at least you have a safe space for non-contentious discussion.
This reminded me of this article https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/magazine/trump-coup.html?fbclid=IwAR1u_s0NTw9inNljP4WFGiH1_k3F9HjX9aIRWP8R42RlCIfHdj_V32KV2zQ
in particular this quote ""Arendt thought that big lies work only on lonely minds. Their coherence substitutes for experience and companionship".
Personally being a single mom who works full time plus has a house to take care of, I don't have TIME to get as obsessed as people who went full Trump. But even I know that sometimes I use media and electronica (including this blog) as a substitute for the "real thing" friendship, companionship, etc. If everyone was able to do the things that they normally do, have their weekly hang out at Biscuitville, going to the fishing hole, band practice, visting with friends and family, I actually think people would see more what REALLY matters, versus going down some conspiracy rabbit hole. So I do think COVID has made this whole thing worse.
I don't know if I have patience for it myself (I gotten to the point I am So Tired of Stupidity in all forms), but if you do have patience do ground people you know who are losing or lost touch with reality in real things. Turn off the tv, say we are going for a walk, make a meal together, whatever. And yes values, whether that is family, or helping the environment, or housing or whatever, that people can focus their time and energy in tangible ways those those causes regardless of who is in power.
Post by: talltexan on January 12, 2021, 06:31:52 AM
As to handling parents who believe fake news do you ignore and change the subject or state your position? I'm going to my parents soon and can't handle her take on "that poor, poor man" and "he's only tried to help the people". This one subject could be the thing that ends our relationship. That's how passionate she is about it.
She feels millions of people voted for him and the votes were changed. My stance so far is listening to her go on about this and throw in a few of my own thoughts when I can get a word in. She turns into a dragon defending him. Maybe it's simply not worth saying anything and just let her ramble on. I mean she is entitled to her opinion but my god, this woman loves to go on about politics. Probably why I don't.
Any experiences either way?
"Mom, I love you. Trump is criminal scum. The facts are clear. You have chosen to live in a land of make-believe about this. That is your privilege. I am not going to spend my precious time with you listening to utter crap supporting that criminal scum pour out of your mouth. Shut up on this topic and we can have a wonderful visit and time together, or we leave. Your call. That's what freedom is all about. Making your choices and living with the consequences. You need to decide whether you prefer to defend Trump or visit with us. "
Yes, it's harsh. But folks like this typically just WILL NOT LISTEN otherwise.
Best of luck. But there's simply no reason to spend precious hours of your life listening to utter drivel based on lies.
Do NOT follow this advice. You will be true to your beliefs, but at what cost? And it will utterly fail to persuade your mother.
Post by: talltexan on January 12, 2021, 06:35:34 AM
As to handling parents who believe fake news do you ignore and change the subject or state your position? I'm going to my parents soon and can't handle her take on "that poor, poor man" and "he's only tried to help the people". This one subject could be the thing that ends our relationship.
You should put family above politics. Trump will be out of office soon enough, so don't let him ruin your relationship. Just avoid that discussion, change the subject, or whatever. Most of this should blow over soon enough after the media gets all they can out of it.
That really doesn't explain the last 12 years of me having to listen to the racist claptrap and how stupid liberals are and all the rest. You think all those people are going to suddenly become reasonable and stop spreading their lies because Trump left office? They are just going to go back to ignoring politics again?
Here's a script I would follow:
"Mom, I understand that you believe Trump would be a better President than Biden. I imagine that's because you value the economy, and you're worried that Biden will abolish private property now that he has a Senate majority. I realize I haven't always been very clear in talking about these things, but you might be surprised to know that I actually still believe in private property as well. Can I tell you about some of the wealthy clients I'm representing in eviction court right now?"
Let the person know they're heard, express a value you have in common, transition to an area where you're making him/her proud.
Post by: SwordGuy on January 12, 2021, 06:37:03 AM
As to handling parents who believe fake news do you ignore and change the subject or state your position? I'm going to my parents soon and can't handle her take on "that poor, poor man" and "he's only tried to help the people". This one subject could be the thing that ends our relationship. That's how passionate she is about it.
She feels millions of people voted for him and the votes were changed. My stance so far is listening to her go on about this and throw in a few of my own thoughts when I can get a word in. She turns into a dragon defending him. Maybe it's simply not worth saying anything and just let her ramble on. I mean she is entitled to her opinion but my god, this woman loves to go on about politics. Probably why I don't.
Any experiences either way?
"Mom, I love you. Trump is criminal scum. The facts are clear. You have chosen to live in a land of make-believe about this. That is your privilege. I am not going to spend my precious time with you listening to utter crap supporting that criminal scum pour out of your mouth. Shut up on this topic and we can have a wonderful visit and time together, or we leave. Your call. That's what freedom is all about. Making your choices and living with the consequences. You need to decide whether you prefer to defend Trump or visit with us. "
Yes, it's harsh. But folks like this typically just WILL NOT LISTEN otherwise.
Best of luck. But there's simply no reason to spend precious hours of your life listening to utter drivel based on lies.
Do NOT follow this advice. You will be true to your beliefs, but at what cost? And it will utterly fail to persuade your mother.
A similar conversation with my parents didn't convince them not to be racists, but it did keep them from making racist comments in my presence.
Your mileage may vary.
Post by: talltexan on January 12, 2021, 06:41:11 AM
I envision that it's the year 2045, and I'm an old man sitting at my daughter's table. She has managed to build an independent and fulfilling life, with a job far better than one I ever had as a Vice President for Conoco-Phillips. But--now in her 30s--she is ranting about the bygone beauty of the Trump era, and how the whole country went off course when they legalized gay marriage. And I'm wondering where in my parenting I could have gone so wrong.
That vision keeps me humble as I interact with my own parents.
Post by: Roots&Wings on January 12, 2021, 07:10:18 AM
"Engage with the person. Appear curious about their beliefs and how they were introduced to them. Ask what person, social media post or video first got them interested and what led them to take it more seriously. Connect with the person by focusing on shared interests and experiences. This is important, because it will help remind the person who they were before getting hooked into the cult. It's also important to keep the conversation positive, because developing rapport and trust with warmth is a key to engaging and getting people to interact with you similarly. They have been indoctrinated to think you have been brainwashed by the likes of the pedophile traffickers, so it's important that they see you as a real person.
Don't judge. Don't insult the person or try to argue against their beliefs. Don't talk down to them or call them names. Instead, act genuinely interested in what they understand the group and its beliefs to be. Don't use terms like "conspiracy theory" or "brainwashed." That could cause the person to avoid you entirely, spend more time online and slide further down into the QAnon world.
Appeal to their sense of integrity, reason and conscience. Orient the QAnon believer to the idea that if something is true, it will stand up to scrutiny. Talk about the value of research, which has to include reading what critics and former QAnon members have to say, not only believers.
Suggest alternative information sources. Redirect the person toward legitimate news sources, social psychology research and other sources of reliable information about how the mind works that shed light on some of the topics QAnon uses to draw people in, such as child trafficking. (This is especially important because QAnon followers have hijacked a movement to stop child trafficking.) My book on cults explains this process in more detail.
Intelligent people can fall prey to cult tactics, which work most effectively on those who don't understand how they work. This could be you.
Create a team of trusted allies. You're just one person against a large community of cult influencers. To bolster critical thinking and independent decision-making, talk to the QAnon follower's friends and family members and encourage them to reconnect with their loved one. The more time the person spends with others and away from the QAnon chat forums, the better.
Now that QAnon is becoming a global phenomenon, with Trump and others in positions of power promoting it, there's a lot at stake. As we approach the presidential elections, Russia and the Christian right are promoting QAnon theories, while the cult's leaders are calling for followers on Twitter to prepare themselves for an armed civil war. We have to be vigilant and do what we can to learn about the dangers of QAnon so we can protect ourselves and those we care about — as well as our democracy — from this cult."
Post by: FrugalToque on January 12, 2021, 10:19:41 AM
A similar conversation with my parents didn't convince them not to be racists, but it did keep them from making racist comments in my presence.
Your mileage may vary.
I think this is step one: teaching racist assholes that their racism has no place in civilized society.
Push them back into the darkness where their beliefs can die cold and alone, barely pronounceable even to their children.
And if the children do hear it?
They'll see the way their parents look around to make sure no one else is listening, and they'll know the phrases uttered are unnacceptable.
Toque.
Post by: bmjohnson35 on January 12, 2021, 06:20:17 PM
I received a call from a family member this morning about Trump's plan leading up to the 20th. Multiple postings and videos from FB were forwarded to me for review. I'm not going to go into the details, but I will say that it was scary. It's scary what people will believe and it makes me understand more and more how Hitler came to power. Fear is a powerful emotion and these people really know how to sow it.
I carefully and strategically provided some critical feedback on the content, but I could see I wasn't even making a dent.
I still don't intend to stock up on ammunition or prepare for armageddon, but I will say that I'm a little more unsettled than I was yesterday.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on January 13, 2021, 08:31:16 AM
I received a call from a family member this morning about Trump's plan leading up to the 20th. Multiple postings and videos from FB were forwarded to me for review. I'm not going to go into the details, but I will say that it was scary. It's scary what people will believe and it makes me understand more and more how Hitler came to power. Fear is a powerful emotion and these people really know how to sow it.
I carefully and strategically provided some critical feedback on the content, but I could see I wasn't even making a dent.
I still don't intend to stock up on ammunition or prepare for armageddon, but I will say that I'm a little more unsettled than I was yesterday.
It's very scary. My parents and me had a deal. Since we couldn't (so they say) prove who's information was correct, we agreed that the now right leaning supreme court would be the final verdict. To my knowledge the supreme court won't even take stolen election cases or whatever it's called due to lack of evidence.
Unfortunately my parents haven't upheld their end of the deal and dropped it, instead they have doubled down on the conspiracies.
I guess literally the whole country is a conspiracy and nobody but donald can be trusted?
As another poster stated - this has absolutely opened my eyes to how easy it would be for a Hitler or other similar leader to rise to power and sway the masses. And we all have the internet to fact check. I imagine it would be even easier for a leader to pull off if they controlled all media.
Post by: Just Joe on January 13, 2021, 08:50:03 AM
I surely hope people don't line up on sides and accept violence as a solution. Its never a good solution.
The rhetoric and the right's fascination with guns and action heroes is worrying. I'd be very disappointed to see our nation's lives and wealth wasted that way.
Post by: sherr on January 13, 2021, 08:50:58 AM
I guess literally the whole country is a conspiracy and nobody but donald can be trusted?
All the courts (including Trump-appointed judges), all the intelligence agencies (including Trump's), all the justice agencies (including Trump's), all the States' election officials (including Republicans), all legitimate news sources (including Fox), and of course all the Democrats (and large numbers of Republicans). They're all conspiring together against Trump, and only Trump and Trump lackeys will tell you the truth, apparently.
Post by: wenchsenior on January 13, 2021, 09:20:52 AM
I guess literally the whole country is a conspiracy and nobody but donald can be trusted?
All the courts (including Trump-appointed judges), all the intelligence agencies (including Trump's), all the justice agencies (including Trump's), all the States' election officials (including Republicans), all legitimate news sources (including Fox), and of course all the Democrats (and large numbers of Republicans). They're all conspiring together against Trump, and only Trump and Trump lackeys will tell you the truth, apparently.
Yes. Go read any randomly chosen set of comments at RedState.com...that's what you will see. It's absolutely amazing. A lot of these people are sincerely terrified that they are going to be rounded up and put in re-education camps.
Post by: OtherJen on January 13, 2021, 09:32:20 AM
I guess literally the whole country is a conspiracy and nobody but donald can be trusted?
All the courts (including Trump-appointed judges), all the intelligence agencies (including Trump's), all the justice agencies (including Trump's), all the States' election officials (including Republicans), all legitimate news sources (including Fox), and of course all the Democrats (and large numbers of Republicans). They're all conspiring together against Trump, and only Trump and Trump lackeys will tell you the truth, apparently.
That does seem to summarize it. Rather sounds like Scientology.
Post by: partgypsy on January 13, 2021, 11:04:18 AM
Post by: SwordGuy on January 13, 2021, 11:56:15 AM
It is scary. I work at a VA, and we were notified while there are no specific threats against us, because it is a government building they are increasing security leading up to the inaguration. That I work for the federal government I may become a target. I can't even imagine how our elected representatives ( like Pence, Pelosi) feel. Their place of work hijacked and ransacked, and getting death threats. It is absolutely an effort to intimidate and silence elected officials. https://www.thedailybeast.com/cleveland-grover-meredith-jr-had-the-means-to-carry-out-death-threat-against-pelosi-dc-mayor-docs-say?source=cheats&via=rss
Violence plus political intimidation = terrorism.
Post by: Plina on January 13, 2021, 12:09:40 PM
I guess literally the whole country is a conspiracy and nobody but donald can be trusted?
All the courts (including Trump-appointed judges), all the intelligence agencies (including Trump's), all the justice agencies (including Trump's), all the States' election officials (including Republicans), all legitimate news sources (including Fox), and of course all the Democrats (and large numbers of Republicans). They're all conspiring together against Trump, and only Trump and Trump lackeys will tell you the truth, apparently.
Yes. Go read any randomly chosen set of comments at RedState.com...that's what you will see. It's absolutely amazing. A lot of these people are sincerely terrified that they are going to be rounded up and put in re-education camps.
Sounds actually like they would need a re-education camp or get back to reality-camp. It seems like they are living in an alternative reality.
Post by: ixtap on January 13, 2021, 12:12:57 PM
I guess literally the whole country is a conspiracy and nobody but donald can be trusted?
All the courts (including Trump-appointed judges), all the intelligence agencies (including Trump's), all the justice agencies (including Trump's), all the States' election officials (including Republicans), all legitimate news sources (including Fox), and of course all the Democrats (and large numbers of Republicans). They're all conspiring together against Trump, and only Trump and Trump lackeys will tell you the truth, apparently.
Yes. Go read any randomly chosen set of comments at RedState.com...that's what you will see. It's absolutely amazing. A lot of these people are sincerely terrified that they are going to be rounded up and put in re-education camps.
Sounds actually like they would need a re-education camp or get back to reality-camp. It seems like they are living in an alternative reality.
Unfortunately, just shipping people off to re-education camp doesn't actually work on breaking through their bubble, it just builds more resentment.
Post by: GuitarStv on January 13, 2021, 12:31:08 PM
I guess literally the whole country is a conspiracy and nobody but donald can be trusted?
All the courts (including Trump-appointed judges), all the intelligence agencies (including Trump's), all the justice agencies (including Trump's), all the States' election officials (including Republicans), all legitimate news sources (including Fox), and of course all the Democrats (and large numbers of Republicans). They're all conspiring together against Trump, and only Trump and Trump lackeys will tell you the truth, apparently.
Yes. Go read any randomly chosen set of comments at RedState.com...that's what you will see. It's absolutely amazing. A lot of these people are sincerely terrified that they are going to be rounded up and put in re-education camps.
Sounds actually like they would need a re-education camp or get back to reality-camp. It seems like they are living in an alternative reality.
Unfortunately, just shipping people off to re-education camp doesn't actually work on breaking through their bubble, it just builds more resentment.
Is it possible to make someone acknowledge reality? How would one do this without building resentment?
Post by: SwordGuy on January 13, 2021, 12:31:14 PM
It's highly likely that the browser is set up to automatically connect to these webpages.
Browsers can be set to block specific websites. People on twitter, FB, etc can be unfollowed. Maybe if the volume of crap being poured into their brains is slowed down actual facts might find room to enter. Now is a good time to try given a bunch of sites are being shutdown.
https://windowsreport.com/block-websites-microsoft-edge/#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20limit%20in,close%20the%20Notepad%20hosts%20file. (https://windowsreport.com/block-websites-microsoft-edge/#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20limit%20in,close%20the%20Notepad%20hosts%20file.)
And, yes, I'm well aware that there are ethical implications to my suggestion. Same with emptying liquor bottles and destroying dangerous illegal drugs that might belong to them. That's the problem with evil, it taints everything it comes into contact with and makes people choose between one evil or another because 100% good is no longer on the menu.
Post by: ixtap on January 13, 2021, 12:45:38 PM
One thing to consider doing would be to get a list of the various websites that the alt-right uses and various spokespersons on standard social media platforms and modify one's parent's browsers and account settings.
It's highly likely that the browser is set up to automatically connect to these webpages.
Browsers can be set to block specific websites. People on twitter, FB, etc can be unfollowed. Maybe if the volume of crap being poured into their brains is slowed down actual facts might find room to enter. Now is a good time to try given a bunch of sites are being shutdown.
https://windowsreport.com/block-websites-microsoft-edge/#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20limit%20in,close%20the%20Notepad%20hosts%20file. (https://windowsreport.com/block-websites-microsoft-edge/#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20limit%20in,close%20the%20Notepad%20hosts%20file.)
And, yes, I'm well aware that there are ethical implications to my suggestion. Same with emptying liquor bottles and destroying dangerous illegal drugs that might belong to them. That's the problem with evil, it taints everything it comes into contact with and makes people choose between one evil or another because 100% good is no longer on the menu.
I am not sure why you would assume that truth deniers are practically computer illiterate? My FIL can make the internet sing his song like a symphony. He just refuses to use any critical thinking skills on it and would probably blame finding such blocks on his computer as further proof of big tech/ deep state/ Obama/ socialists messing with his life, even as he removed them. To be fair, he son IS big tech and we are both in support of most of what he points to as "socialist" (just not, yeah know, the authoritarian crap that they also associate with "socialist" while trying to pull it off themselves)
My brother is a systems administrator, the kind of first generation computer geek who installed the systems in his own university while getting a cs degree - he could probably track such changes directly back to who made them if they left the slightest indication. In addition to all the conspiracies mentioned in this thread, he will talk your ear off about how the Grand Canyon proves that Geology is a fake science, which is also proof that evolution is brainwashing.
Post by: OtherJen on January 13, 2021, 12:52:06 PM
One thing to consider doing would be to get a list of the various websites that the alt-right uses and various spokespersons on standard social media platforms and modify one's parent's browsers and account settings.
It's highly likely that the browser is set up to automatically connect to these webpages.
Browsers can be set to block specific websites. People on twitter, FB, etc can be unfollowed. Maybe if the volume of crap being poured into their brains is slowed down actual facts might find room to enter. Now is a good time to try given a bunch of sites are being shutdown.
https://windowsreport.com/block-websites-microsoft-edge/#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20limit%20in,close%20the%20Notepad%20hosts%20file. (https://windowsreport.com/block-websites-microsoft-edge/#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20limit%20in,close%20the%20Notepad%20hosts%20file.)
And, yes, I'm well aware that there are ethical implications to my suggestion. Same with emptying liquor bottles and destroying dangerous illegal drugs that might belong to them. That's the problem with evil, it taints everything it comes into contact with and makes people choose between one evil or another because 100% good is no longer on the menu.
I am not sure why you would assume that truth deniers are practically computer illiterate? My FIL can make the internet sing his song like a symphony. He just refuses to use any critical thinking skills on it and would probably blame finding such blocks on his computer as further proof of big tech/ deep state/ Obama/ socialists messing with his life, even as he removed them. To be fair, he son IS big tech and we are both in support of most of what he points to as "socialist" (just not, yeah know, the authoritarian crap that they also associate with "socialist" while trying to pull it off themselves)
My brother is a systems administrator, the kind of first generation computer geek who installed the systems in his own university while getting a cs degree - he could probably track such changes directly back to who made them if they left the slightest indication. In addition to all the conspiracies mentioned in this thread, he will talk your ear off about how the Grand Canyon proves that Geology is a fake science, which is also proof that evolution is brainwashing.
One of my husband's formerly close friends has gone really far down the rabbit hole of creationism and Trumpism. He has a computer science degree and is a very well paid programmer. He's also extremely paranoid, and would definitely view such blocks on his computer as fodder for his theories about the deep state.
Post by: Apples on January 13, 2021, 12:53:26 PM
Post by: talltexan on January 13, 2021, 01:08:51 PM
Post by: SwordGuy on January 13, 2021, 01:24:10 PM
One thing to consider doing would be to get a list of the various websites that the alt-right uses and various spokespersons on standard social media platforms and modify one's parent's browsers and account settings.
It's highly likely that the browser is set up to automatically connect to these webpages.
Browsers can be set to block specific websites. People on twitter, FB, etc can be unfollowed. Maybe if the volume of crap being poured into their brains is slowed down actual facts might find room to enter. Now is a good time to try given a bunch of sites are being shutdown.
https://windowsreport.com/block-websites-microsoft-edge/#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20limit%20in,close%20the%20Notepad%20hosts%20file. (https://windowsreport.com/block-websites-microsoft-edge/#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20limit%20in,close%20the%20Notepad%20hosts%20file.)
And, yes, I'm well aware that there are ethical implications to my suggestion. Same with emptying liquor bottles and destroying dangerous illegal drugs that might belong to them. That's the problem with evil, it taints everything it comes into contact with and makes people choose between one evil or another because 100% good is no longer on the menu.
I am not sure why you would assume that truth deniers are practically computer illiterate?
I make no such assumption.
My assumption is that the readers of this thread are smart enough to know when this might work and when it would not.
Post by: SunnyDays on January 13, 2021, 05:10:02 PM
Post by: stoaX on January 14, 2021, 07:04:49 AM
I really wonder how much conspiracy believers would be disappointed rather than a relieved to have their views disproven? Are they truly “terrified” etc or are they EXCITED by the drama? If you feel like your life is dull and you’re unimportant, then what better solution than to rally to a cause that gives you purpose? Way better than a meaningless little life, right? And if that is the case, then you can’t convince them otherwise because they don’t want to be convinced. They would have too much to lose.
I think that's true. People get a good feeling from "being in the know". "Secret knowledge" is quite appealing and harmless when it's in a Harry Potter book, dangerous when it influences your world view
Post by: Apples on January 14, 2021, 08:22:28 AM
Perfect is the enemy of the good - WaPo makes some mistakes, which they largely admit to and apologize for, and so they are just as easily dismissed as Fox News, OAN, Mother Jones because you don't see the difference in degree. You're not able to muster the energy right now to educate yourself, but that's something for you to tackle as an individual.
The right's biggest coup was convincing that the conservative viewpoint is in any way reasonable and close to middle ground, when it is in fact pretty far-right. And I'm not talking about folks willing to literally attack our government when I say that. We are conditioned to think the middle is somewhere between New York Times and Fox News, when New York times in fact, pretty much is the middle.
To agree, I like to link people to this Media Bias Chart (https://www.adfontesmedia.com/static-mbc/). Feel free to read up on their methodology and assessments if you want. Any of the news sources in the center-middle green box are pretty good, and at least will honestly label opinion articles as opinion articles.
Fox News is the right's equivalent to something like Daily KOS or Occupy Democrats on the left, and yet conservatives think that Fox and NYT are opposites of each other...
@sherr I just looked at the chart. It rates NewMax, The Epoch Times, The Blaze, and OAN as *more reliable* than Fox News. Really?
Post by: ixtap on January 14, 2021, 08:30:49 AM
Perfect is the enemy of the good - WaPo makes some mistakes, which they largely admit to and apologize for, and so they are just as easily dismissed as Fox News, OAN, Mother Jones because you don't see the difference in degree. You're not able to muster the energy right now to educate yourself, but that's something for you to tackle as an individual.
The right's biggest coup was convincing that the conservative viewpoint is in any way reasonable and close to middle ground, when it is in fact pretty far-right. And I'm not talking about folks willing to literally attack our government when I say that. We are conditioned to think the middle is somewhere between New York Times and Fox News, when New York times in fact, pretty much is the middle.
To agree, I like to link people to this Media Bias Chart (https://www.adfontesmedia.com/static-mbc/). Feel free to read up on their methodology and assessments if you want. Any of the news sources in the center-middle green box are pretty good, and at least will honestly label opinion articles as opinion articles.
Fox News is the right's equivalent to something like Daily KOS or Occupy Democrats on the left, and yet conservatives think that Fox and NYT are opposites of each other...
@sherr I just looked at the chart. It rates NewMax, The Epoch Times, The Blaze, and OAN as *more reliable* than Fox News. Really?
OAN did start out that way, but have gone off the deep end.
Post by: sherr on January 14, 2021, 08:48:19 AM
@sherr I just looked at the chart. It rates NewMax, The Epoch Times, The Blaze, and OAN as *more reliable* than Fox News. Really?
Not really, they're all in the same cluster with "Fox News (web)". And that's probably about right before the very very recent shift to cater to people for whom Fox is "too liberal". Remember that pretty much started in November, and this chart says it's from June.
Like I said before, "which box they're in" is a lot more informative than minute differences in their point scale. There's not exactly a lot of precision in these measurements. And things do change over time.
Post by: Sibley on January 14, 2021, 09:19:05 AM
Post by: sherr on January 14, 2021, 09:41:12 AM
I have determined at least one source for my mom- Epoch Times. About the only good thing is I don't think they're QAnon.
You might be interested in reading this article in The Atlantic (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/01/inside-the-epoch-times-a-mysterious-pro-trump-newspaper/617645/) about them then.
Post by: Poundwise on January 14, 2021, 09:58:03 AM
I have determined at least one source for my mom- Epoch Times. About the only good thing is I don't think they're QAnon.
Yikes, those guys are crazy! Epoch Times is run by Falun Gong, a creepy cult with a big complex in Orange County. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-21/inside-falun-gong-master-li-hongzhi-the-mountain-dragon-springs/12442518?nw=0
Post by: ixtap on January 14, 2021, 10:00:29 AM
I have determined at least one source for my mom- Epoch Times. About the only good thing is I don't think they're QAnon.
Yikes, those guys are crazy! Epoch Times is run by Falun Gong, a creepy cult with a big complex in Orange County. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-21/inside-falun-gong-master-li-hongzhi-the-mountain-dragon-springs/12442518?nw=0
I love how everyone keeps screaming about CA being a bastion of liberalism that squashes all conservative thought.
Post by: Apples on January 14, 2021, 10:07:09 AM
@Sibley I've taken to scrolling through the r/Conservative subreddit on Reddit to see the main articles of the day getting pushed by both conservative news sources and the more alt-right sources. Gives me a good idea of what my mom will be sharing videos about on Facebook in the near future. Also, my Dad was sent a "free trial issue" of The Epoch Times in the mail, I assume based on his various magazine subscriptions. So that may be how your mom found it.
My own mother, frustratingly, doesn't seem to have a news source other than Facebook videos. It runs the gamut from Fox News videos, to OAN videos, to random videos of people in their living rooms talking about the (sketchy) news videos they've seen and how all of it fits together. Meanwhile, my neighbor has said that she's "learned I have to read about something from various news sources and find the truth somewhere in the middle", and then she posts articles from RedState. That's...probably not somewhere in the middle.
Post by: Sibley on January 14, 2021, 12:52:28 PM
I haven't heard QAnon from her. Thank goodness. I also still haven't discussed last week's insurrection at all with her. I just don't want to deal with it.
Post by: Poundwise on January 14, 2021, 03:24:35 PM
I have determined at least one source for my mom- Epoch Times. About the only good thing is I don't think they're QAnon.
Yikes, those guys are crazy! Epoch Times is run by Falun Gong, a creepy cult with a big complex in Orange County. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-21/inside-falun-gong-master-li-hongzhi-the-mountain-dragon-springs/12442518?nw=0
I love how everyone keeps screaming about CA being a bastion of liberalism that squashes all conservative thought.
Actually Orange County, NY. Sorry, forgot to specify. :)
Enjoy your bastion of liberalism in CA!
Post by: ysette9 on January 14, 2021, 03:25:54 PM
In fairness, California is at least two different states. Blue on the coasts and red in the interior. That doesn’t even get into the north/south divide.I have determined at least one source for my mom- Epoch Times. About the only good thing is I don't think they're QAnon.
Yikes, those guys are crazy! Epoch Times is run by Falun Gong, a creepy cult with a big complex in Orange County. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-21/inside-falun-gong-master-li-hongzhi-the-mountain-dragon-springs/12442518?nw=0
I love how everyone keeps screaming about CA being a bastion of liberalism that squashes all conservative thought.
Post by: Poundwise on January 14, 2021, 03:30:52 PM
@sherr thanks, after I posted I continued reading through the thread and saw you had said that. Sorry!
@Sibley I've taken to scrolling through the r/Conservative subreddit on Reddit to see the main articles of the day getting pushed by both conservative news sources and the more alt-right sources. Gives me a good idea of what my mom will be sharing videos about on Facebook in the near future. Also, my Dad was sent a "free trial issue" of The Epoch Times in the mail, I assume based on his various magazine subscriptions. So that may be how your mom found it.
My own mother, frustratingly, doesn't seem to have a news source other than Facebook videos. It runs the gamut from Fox News videos, to OAN videos, to random videos of people in their living rooms talking about the (sketchy) news videos they've seen and how all of it fits together. Meanwhile, my neighbor has said that she's "learned I have to read about something from various news sources and find the truth somewhere in the middle", and then she posts articles from RedState. That's...probably not somewhere in the middle.
Maybe you should secretly subcribe your parents to Jacobin or Mother Jones, or even the Palmer Report! Just to even them out a bit.
Post by: big_owl on January 14, 2021, 03:48:21 PM
STFU mom and go back to sulking in he corner. Trump lost.
Post by: ixtap on January 14, 2021, 03:57:03 PM
In fairness, California is at least two different states. Blue on the coasts and red in the interior. That doesn’t even get into the north/south divide.I have determined at least one source for my mom- Epoch Times. About the only good thing is I don't think they're QAnon.
Yikes, those guys are crazy! Epoch Times is run by Falun Gong, a creepy cult with a big complex in Orange County. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-21/inside-falun-gong-master-li-hongzhi-the-mountain-dragon-springs/12442518?nw=0
I love how everyone keeps screaming about CA being a bastion of liberalism that squashes all conservative thought.
Barely blue on the coast and bright red in the interior. I just got an invitation to an illegal gathering on the waterfront and Spring Valley isn't that far inland.
Post by: SwordGuy on January 14, 2021, 03:59:16 PM
I sent a message to a liberal friend at an army unit I used to work at.
Here's my question:
"Is the Trump-love-fest still going strong? Enquiring minds want to know!"
Here's the answer:
"They still love Big Brother and those illegitimate protesters at the Capitol were all transgender, canabalistic, pedophilic antifa replicants who took over the identities of known white supremacists and many other good people using those pods from "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" which were being grown in the storeroom of a pizzaria in San Francsco jointly owned by Nancy Pelosi, Hugo Chavez, and Squealer. "
Ok, I don't think they literally believe all that, but I'm perfectly willing to believe they'll claim it was a false flag operation and then -- because that world view makes them happier -- quit looking for and reject any facts that might overturn it.
And trust me, these are people who **should** no better. But they don't want to.
Post by: ixtap on January 14, 2021, 04:02:57 PM
Please don't underestimate the lengths that large numbers of ignorant, violent, stupid fanatics will go to.
I sent a message to a liberal friend at an army unit I used to work at.
Here's my question:
"Is the Trump-love-fest still going strong? Enquiring minds want to know!"
Here's the answer:
"They still love Big Brother and those illegitimate protesters at the Capitol were all transgender, canabalistic, pedophilic antifa replicants who took over the identities of known white supremacists and many other good people using those pods from "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" which were being grown in the storeroom of a pizzaria in San Francsco jointly owned by Nancy Pelosi, Hugo Chavez, and Squealer. "
Ok, I don't think they literally believe all that, but I'm perfectly willing to believe they'll claim it was a false flag operation and then -- because that world view makes them happier -- quit looking for and reject any facts that might overturn it.
And trust me, these are people who **should** no better. But they don't want to.
The false flag thing is STRONG. They have evidence! Of course, it is just as solid as the evidence proving widespread voter fraud...
My fear is that in order to believe all this, they have to believe that every single system in our government has been rendered useless. If I believed all that, I would probably be planning something desperate and I am a peacenik. What are my armed relatives willing to do?!
Post by: Just Joe on January 14, 2021, 07:23:15 PM
The crazy is leaking out into the mainstream here and there. Nextdoor person down the road is asking where he can buy .357 Magnum hollow point bullets... Solar won't work b/c apparently Bill Gates is using chem-trails to block the sunlight according to someone else this week. I heard the false flag theory again about the capitol.
Calgon take me away!!!!
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on January 14, 2021, 08:31:27 PM
Please don't underestimate the lengths that large numbers of ignorant, violent, stupid fanatics will go to.
I sent a message to a liberal friend at an army unit I used to work at.
Here's my question:
"Is the Trump-love-fest still going strong? Enquiring minds want to know!"
Here's the answer:
"They still love Big Brother and those illegitimate protesters at the Capitol were all transgender, canabalistic, pedophilic antifa replicants who took over the identities of known white supremacists and many other good people using those pods from "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" which were being grown in the storeroom of a pizzaria in San Francsco jointly owned by Nancy Pelosi, Hugo Chavez, and Squealer. "
Ok, I don't think they literally believe all that, but I'm perfectly willing to believe they'll claim it was a false flag operation and then -- because that world view makes them happier -- quit looking for and reject any facts that might overturn it.
And trust me, these are people who **should** no better. But they don't want to.
The false flag thing is STRONG. They have evidence! Of course, it is just as solid as the evidence proving widespread voter fraud...
My fear is that in order to believe all this, they have to believe that every single system in our government has been rendered useless. If I believed all that, I would probably be planning something desperate and I am a peacenik. What are my armed relatives willing to do?!
Can confirm. My parents were at the rally. They swear the news has overblown the whole thing. Additionally they swear the fence breakers were put there to make everyone else look bad by the left.
Post by: stoaX on January 15, 2021, 05:57:45 AM
Calgon take me away!!!!
I haven't heard that expression since sometime in the last century!
Post by: ixtap on January 15, 2021, 08:50:06 AM
Please don't underestimate the lengths that large numbers of ignorant, violent, stupid fanatics will go to.
I sent a message to a liberal friend at an army unit I used to work at.
Here's my question:
"Is the Trump-love-fest still going strong? Enquiring minds want to know!"
Here's the answer:
"They still love Big Brother and those illegitimate protesters at the Capitol were all transgender, canabalistic, pedophilic antifa replicants who took over the identities of known white supremacists and many other good people using those pods from "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" which were being grown in the storeroom of a pizzaria in San Francsco jointly owned by Nancy Pelosi, Hugo Chavez, and Squealer. "
Ok, I don't think they literally believe all that, but I'm perfectly willing to believe they'll claim it was a false flag operation and then -- because that world view makes them happier -- quit looking for and reject any facts that might overturn it.
And trust me, these are people who **should** no better. But they don't want to.
The false flag thing is STRONG. They have evidence! Of course, it is just as solid as the evidence proving widespread voter fraud...
My fear is that in order to believe all this, they have to believe that every single system in our government has been rendered useless. If I believed all that, I would probably be planning something desperate and I am a peacenik. What are my armed relatives willing to do?!
Can confirm. My parents were at the rally. They swear the news has overblown the whole thing. Additionally they swear the fence breakers were put there to make everyone else look bad by the left.
I saw last night that they have found 1 such person, so I am a little surprised that we haven't yet been inundated with this as proof that they were right all along, despite the 100 or so people who have already been charged still screaming to save Trump.
Post by: sherr on January 15, 2021, 08:57:50 AM
I saw last night that they have found 1 such person, so I am a little surprised that we haven't yet been inundated with this as proof that they were right all along, despite the 100 or so people who have already been charged still screaming to save Trump.
And "the guy they found" was just following people in, trying to get to the front to record things on his camera. He was not one of the people leading the charge and breaking down barriers/windows.
Should still be charged, sure. Unlawful entry is unlawful entry regardless of your intentions. But there is still zero evidence that the insurrection was instigated by "antifa".
Post by: ixtap on January 15, 2021, 09:03:42 AM
I saw last night that they have found 1 such person, so I am a little surprised that we haven't yet been inundated with this as proof that they were right all along, despite the 100 or so people who have already been charged still screaming to save Trump.
And "the guy they found" was just following people in, trying to get to the front to record things on his camera. He was not one of the people leading the charge and breaking down barriers/windows.
Should still be charged, sure. Unlawful entry is unlawful entry regardless of your intentions. But there is still zero evidence that the insurrection was instigated by "antifa".
He wasn't leading, but he was shouting instigating things. Just like the W Va lawmaker, he claims he was just trying to fit in and be a journalist. That is not journalism and we shouldn't try to justify it. I condemn him with the rest of them. However, I don't think that finding 1 amongst thousands proves that "antifa" is to blame. That is right up there with claiming that fraud is so wide spread that it cost you several million votes because you were able to prosecute a handful of cases. It is BS, but we must fight with facts, not by mimicking some lame excuse for thinking.
Post by: sherr on January 15, 2021, 09:18:59 AM
Post by: ixtap on January 15, 2021, 09:54:28 AM
I don't disagree with anything you said, although I can see how it can be taken that way. This guy is just as guilty as anyone else, and should be charged as such. I'm not excusing his actions.
Sorry, I am very touchy these days for some reason. Can't imagine why...
Poor DH asked yesterday if it hurts when people suggest that Me too is just women making things up to attack men (we were discussing a specific case of a man who can't do his volunteer job around a solo woman, lest she accuse his sexist ass of something. I don't think he would grope, but he is rife with sexist comments and jokes) and I let out 40+ years of frustration with sexual harassment and assault and it being safer to be quiet than speak up, plus all the stories that any woman has ever shared with me in sheer volume. Scared him and our roommate a bit, but I think he understands that yeah, it reallllly hurts.
Back to the topic at hand. DH is trying desperately to figure out how to continue to have a relationship with his family without being subjected to the constant stream of lies. He has reached out and is practicing redirecting more than ever. He has also poured a lot of energy into how to nonchalantly not stay with them on our next visit so that we can leave easily if it does start up. I was able to assure him that it never really even occurred to me that his father was actively part of a militia, just a useful fool using his supposed intelligence to feed this crap by coming up with his own spreadsheets that prove voter fraud, because who could possibly believe that new voters would vote for Biden?
Post by: blue_green_sparks on January 15, 2021, 11:54:37 AM
Eventually my mentor mentioned that his family couldn't stand to be around him and I jokingly suggested that he is a bit much. Well it was never the same after that. I saw him slowly deteriorate over the next few years and he even had a some blow-ups in the break room with other engineers and had to go to "charm-school" after being reprimanded. That addictive vile turned a nice guy into a bitter old man. He is gone now. Thing is these manipulators take great traits that these people cherish like "hard work" and "personal responsibility" and twist them into hate.
Post by: Poundwise on January 15, 2021, 01:55:16 PM
He wasn't my parent but he was my mentor as I embarked on my engineering career. Incredibly intelligent... but in reflection it must have been a compartmentalized cognition.
It seems to me that many engineers of my acquaintance tend to view the world as they think it SHOULD be, rather than see the world as it actually is. This is not necessarily a good or bad quality, but it can lead to self-deception.
Post by: Plina on January 15, 2021, 02:48:06 PM
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 15, 2021, 04:18:28 PM
We do have relatives who have gone to the dark side, and used the past four years to become very clear with their racism. Over the summer, they made racist remarks in front of my (non white) children. That was the end of family time, and we (and by me, I'm referring to myself, my parents, my sister, etc) have cut out that family member. No further interaction after racist rants.
We also talk to our kids a lot about critical thinking skills, reputable news sources, how to fact check, etc. They are learning all of this in school, so they are very puzzled so how many people can be swayed. I try to talk to them about how some/most adults didn't grow up in the time of the internet, constantly inundated with "news" or "information", so many do not have the skills necessary to sift through information & distill the facts.
Post by: Just Joe on January 16, 2021, 11:50:16 AM
I am curious how those of you that have kids deal with their questions about their grandparents or relatives rantings?
We've shielded our teens from the worst of of the comments our relatives have said. Miles and COVID has helped. They do know that most of the extended family supports Trump and they know plenty about what Trump has said and done. Our kids made their own connections. They are eager to continue their familiar connections without this top between us. So are DW and I.
The worst of the extended family behavior comes from them forwarding and liking some absolute abhorrent garbage on the internet. We consider them to be ideological cowards unwilling to do anything but stand there and issue a metaphorical fist pump and a loud "YEAH!". That follows along with their intellectually lazy POV on many current events.
One possibility is that this is just fun time for them while DW and I take topics like current events more seriously.
Post by: J Boogie on January 16, 2021, 08:16:41 PM
He wasn't my parent but he was my mentor as I embarked on my engineering career. Incredibly intelligent... but in reflection it must have been a compartmentalized cognition. He was always listening to AM radio right-wing stations. Wow. The show host would even work a smooth transition from the plethora of accusations right into an advert for a conservative-friendly local business.
Eventually my mentor mentioned that his family couldn't stand to be around him and I jokingly suggested that he is a bit much. Well it was never the same after that. I saw him slowly deteriorate over the next few years and he even had a some blow-ups in the break room with other engineers and had to go to "charm-school" after being reprimanded. That addictive vile turned a nice guy into a bitter old man. He is gone now. Thing is these manipulators take great traits that these people cherish like "hard work" and "personal responsibility" and twist them into hate.
Conservative these days seems to simply mean anti left.
Very little energy from conservatives seems to be channeling into conserving. It's similar to Christian identity, where the focus is not on living the values but ensuring cultural dominance for one's tribe.
Post by: ixtap on January 16, 2021, 08:26:35 PM
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 17, 2021, 07:57:29 AM
I finally gave up and snoozed a family member who is already posting crass shit about Biden and his "dementia." It was the only way to avoid calling him an immature prat or worse.
He would probably interpret that as youthful and fun-loving. /s
Post by: jfer_rose on January 17, 2021, 08:16:23 AM
This would have likely been a problem for me, however I lost both of my parents since 2016. (I will say, my mom died just before the election that brought Trump into the White House and despite repeated prodding from my very pro-Trump dad, she was unwilling to complete her absentee ballot. I was with her when the Access Hollywood story broke and I think that really put her off him.)
That said, I do have many other family members who spew this stuff including someone very closely related to me who during the few hours of the insurrection expressed doubt about who had actually infiltrated the Capitol because it didn't make sense that it would actually be the pro-Trump people. I do not know what to do about this.
My significant other has just completely stopped calling his parents as a result of this stuff. I don't think he has talked to them since Thanksgiving.
It truly does have the potential to severely damage familial relationships, which is ironic considering that the right is supposedly all about "family values."
Post by: ixtap on January 17, 2021, 08:39:59 AM
I've been following this thread with great interest and am mostly posting to follow.
This would have likely been a problem for me, however I lost both of my parents since 2016. (I will say, my mom died just before the election that brought Trump into the White House and despite repeated prodding from my very pro-Trump dad, she was unwilling to complete her absentee ballot. I was with her when the Access Hollywood story broke and I think that really put her off him.)
That said, I do have many other family members who spew this stuff including someone very closely related to me who during the few hours of the insurrection expressed doubt about who had actually infiltrated the Capitol because it didn't make sense that it would actually be the pro-Trump people. I do not know what to do about this.
My significant other has just completely stopped calling his parents as a result of this stuff. I don't think he has talked to them since Thanksgiving.
It truly does have the potential to severely damage familial relationships, which is ironic considering that the right is supposedly all about "family values."
My SO is obsessing over how to have a relationship with his parents. For the moment, that means hours of angst for every phone call, plans to not stay with them next time we visit, and an expensive gift that he hopes will distract his mother from his father's constant diet and spewing of conspiracy theories. For now, it means I leave the room when he calls because I am so raw AND because he is trying to figure out how to convince them his thoughts are his own, not something that their fat libtard daughter in law has contaminated their son with, without actually calling his father out for the past decade of bullying that we have dealt with by just walking away. I woke up one night to my partner crying because he had read some of his father's emails that he has been filtering for years and years because they are just a stream of lies, conspiracies and crass accusations. Turns out he has graduated to providing his own proof, not just sharing what comes across his desk. I was able to calm him down by pointing out that his father is far too selfish to send large sums of money to a politician or otherwise do anything besides contribute to the lies from behind his desk.
I am working on fixing this nasty side in myself before I expose myself to all this nastiness again Hence the aforementioned "snooze". I refuse to give up on family not because of some misguided idea of family loyalty, but because the nieces and nephews need to know that an alternative exists.
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 17, 2021, 08:46:53 AM
Just to say, I'm not that person. When my relative starts with his garbage, it feels like a personal attack on my family & walking away is the only solution for me. I admire in many ways the people that can do that, but it's just too close for me.
Post by: ixtap on January 17, 2021, 09:19:47 AM
@ixtap - that sounds so hard. On the nieces & nephews side (cousins, in our case), we have one uncle who is able to bridge the gap. I'm not that person, my parents aren't those people. When my cousin starts spewing his racist BS, I'm unable to have a rational conversation. My uncle is able to ignore all of that, shut it down through polite "no thanks, let's move on" & still engage with the cousins. When the little cousins themselves (they are 8 & 10) repeat racist BS they've heard at home, he tells them that type of comment has no place in society & redirects, explaining a bit.
Just to say, I'm not that person. When my relative starts with his garbage, it feels like a personal attack on my family & walking away is the only solution for me. I admire in many ways the people that can do that, but it's just too close for me.
My father has been posting more anti Trump stuff on FB than I have, but he was raised by a narcissistic bully and has mastered something even beyond "no thanks, let's move on." In person, at least up until Trump announced his nomination, Dad just pretends like he didn't even hear it. Sister bad mouthing mother? Let's play cards. Mother ranting about, well, whatever her latest rant is? Let's have some coffee. My father in law tries to start a political rant when Dad mentions global entry passes? Dad just goes on with his story like no one said a word.
While I have done my best to emulate him (actually, I usually walk out, I can't even), part of our angst this last couple of weeks has been if we were too quiet. I doubt it: I have confronted in some cases and just got yelled at and/or called stupid. Little dialogue has happened for a long time now. Anyone else remember "no compromise" being a Republican rallying cry?
Post by: talltexan on January 18, 2021, 07:50:13 AM
If you're worried that your silence has resulted in children under your care not properly understanding your opinions, you probably still have time to correct this with gentleness and humility.
Post by: ender on January 18, 2021, 08:02:16 AM
which is ironic considering that the right is supposedly all about "family values."
One of the ironies ironic about the whole capitol events is it was a bunch of "conservatives" trying to cause the federal government to override states' rights.
Post by: Sandi_k on January 18, 2021, 07:41:09 PM
which is ironic considering that the right is supposedly all about "family values."
One of the ironies ironic about the whole capitol events is it was a bunch of "conservatives" trying to cause the federal government to override states' rights.
Exactly!
Also, someone posted up that now these protesters will become felons if convicted for storming the Capitol. As felons, they cannot legally own guns. #IronyAlert - they took their own guns away...
Post by: talltexan on January 19, 2021, 08:12:52 AM
Post by: Just Joe on January 19, 2021, 08:20:54 AM
I finally gave up and snoozed a family member who is already posting crass shit about Biden and his "dementia." It was the only way to avoid calling him an immature prat or worse.
DW told me she did the same for one of her parents. Said she should have done that ages ago.
Post by: Arbitrage on January 19, 2021, 08:47:55 AM
Post by: talltexan on January 19, 2021, 09:54:03 AM
Post by: Plina on January 19, 2021, 11:45:05 AM
It can be found here: https://brenebrown.com/podcast/brene-on-words-actions-dehumanization-and-accountability/
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on January 27, 2021, 02:43:35 PM
Unfortunately it appears worse. I had a really long conversation for understanding not so much for opinion changing.
I didn't realize just how deep the Qanon hole was. Just crazy crazy things. In above post someone questioned how I know my views are right and theirs are wrong.
These people literally believe there's an underground cult of satanist who torture and eat children lead by Hillary Clinton (with video evidence) and other hot button names. And that wasn't even the most extreme example of wacky beliefs.
My parents are that far gone and have doubled down since the inauguration and capital protest.
I can't imagine how they can come back from this. In their mind the more it's proven false, the bigger the conspiracy since more people are covering for it.
Game over I guess. I'm out of ideas.
Post by: Adventine on January 27, 2021, 03:16:18 PM
Post by: ysette9 on January 27, 2021, 04:38:24 PM
Post by: nick663 on January 27, 2021, 05:52:29 PM
One tactic I've taken in the past few months is to calmly explain why their outlandish predictions are wrong, providing my own sources. I then screenshot the convo and save it with the date of prediction in a folder ("January 6th" for Pence stopping certification, for example). When I see a date has passed, I bump the conversation to show them that my sources were correct while there's were garbage.
I'm really hoping that public embarrassment of being fooled time and time again will at a minimum get them to shut up. It would be great if they reconsidered their sources completely but I won't hold my breath.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on January 27, 2021, 07:53:19 PM
Philosophical question maybe, but where do you draw the line between wacky conspiracy theories and mental illness that should be addressed?
That subject came up earlier in this thread. I'm not sure where that line is. It seems like weak thinking to brand something like 1/8th the country has a mental illness atm. But there's such a logical breakdown.....
At this point the outlandish stuff is harder to believe and has less evidence than the "truth". So why would someone choose to believe the improbable narrative that lacks evidence?
Post by: SwordGuy on January 27, 2021, 07:57:23 PM
Philosophical question maybe, but where do you draw the line between wacky conspiracy theories and mental illness that should be addressed?
That subject came up earlier in this thread. I'm not sure where that line is. It seems like weak thinking to brand something like 1/8th the country has a mental illness atm. But there's such a logical breakdown.....
At this point the outlandish stuff is harder to believe and has less evidence than the "truth". So why would someone choose to believe the improbable narrative that lacks evidence?
Because they like the end result (oppression of "the other", rampant racism, or enabled greed) more than they like truth or justice.
Post by: CodingHare on January 27, 2021, 09:00:36 PM
That subject came up earlier in this thread. I'm not sure where that line is. It seems like weak thinking to brand something like 1/8th the country has a mental illness atm. But there's such a logical breakdown.....Research is beginning to show a link between lead poisoning in childhood and cognitive decline in adulthood. (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2720691) Coincidentally, we only phased lead out of gasoline in the 1970's, so our parent's generation had a lot more exposure than we ever have. 1/8th of the country having mental illness may not be that far off.
At this point the outlandish stuff is harder to believe and has less evidence than the "truth". So why would someone choose to believe the improbable narrative that lacks evidence?
Also the US has some of the worst mental health care in the world. We're crap at detecting it and we certainly don't spend tax dollars trying to help it if we can avoid it. Combine that with the dismantling of education, the widening wealth gap creating very different outcomes for boomers and their kids, large political interests who funded talk radio, the evangelical movement wading into politics with their "opposition is Satanic, no compromise" politics... The QANON stuff is just the most extreme wing of this stuff that has existed since the 80's.
Post by: sherr on January 28, 2021, 08:13:08 AM
Philosophical question maybe, but where do you draw the line between wacky conspiracy theories and mental illness that should be addressed?
That subject came up earlier in this thread. I'm not sure where that line is. It seems like weak thinking to brand something like 1/8th the country has a mental illness atm. But there's such a logical breakdown.....
IMO it's the same as the difference between a "religion" and a "cult": how many people believe it. Practically speaking, you're not going to be able to convince your parents that it's either a "wacky conspiracy theory" or a "mental illness" when the majority of the Republican Party is still telling them it's true.
Post by: Just Joe on January 28, 2021, 08:16:15 AM
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on March 11, 2021, 08:22:23 PM
Philosophical question maybe, but where do you draw the line between wacky conspiracy theories and mental illness that should be addressed?
That subject came up earlier in this thread. I'm not sure where that line is. It seems like weak thinking to brand something like 1/8th the country has a mental illness atm. But there's such a logical breakdown.....
IMO it's the same as the difference between a "religion" and a "cult": how many people believe it. Practically speaking, you're not going to be able to convince your parents that it's either a "wacky conspiracy theory" or a "mental illness" when the majority of the Republican Party is still telling them it's true.
This is probably the best advice. Middle of March and the situation has not improved.
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on March 11, 2021, 08:52:16 PM
Philosophical question maybe, but where do you draw the line between wacky conspiracy theories and mental illness that should be addressed?
That subject came up earlier in this thread. I'm not sure where that line is. It seems like weak thinking to brand something like 1/8th the country has a mental illness atm. But there's such a logical breakdown.....
IMO it's the same as the difference between a "religion" and a "cult": how many people believe it. Practically speaking, you're not going to be able to convince your parents that it's either a "wacky conspiracy theory" or a "mental illness" when the majority of the Republican Party is still telling them it's true.
This is probably the best advice. Middle of March and the situation has not improved.
I've been thinking about this thread, and hoping time & a lack/decline of Trump news would help. I'm sorry to hear that's not the case.
Post by: SwordGuy on March 11, 2021, 09:56:40 PM
I've been thinking about this thread, and hoping time & a lack/decline of Trump news would help. I'm sorry to hear that's not the case.
Quote from: Bertoldt Brecht in his play, [b][/b]Arturo Ui
Don't yet rejoice in his defeat, you men! Although the world stood up and stopped the bastard, The bitch that bore him is in heat again.”
The folks behind this and those who want to benefit from this movement are still working to make it happen. The GOP whack-jobs are in charge in many state legislatures.
For example, the Arizona GOP run state legislature just removed the statewide mask mandate. Their logic -- their word, not mine -- is that obviously no one needs to wear a mask in this epidemic because they didn't make us wear one during the AIDS epidemic. No, I'm not making this up. No, I'm not exaggerating.
If we could only come up with a device to keep these people from putting their own heads up their own (or Trump's) ass.
Post by: Plina on March 11, 2021, 11:47:14 PM
I've been thinking about this thread, and hoping time & a lack/decline of Trump news would help. I'm sorry to hear that's not the case.Quote from: Bertoldt Brecht in his play, [b][/b]Arturo UiDon't yet rejoice in his defeat, you men! Although the world stood up and stopped the bastard, The bitch that bore him is in heat again.”
The folks behind this and those who want to benefit from this movement are still working to make it happen. The GOP whack-jobs are in charge in many state legislatures.
For example, the Arizona GOP run state legislature just removed the statewide mask mandate. Their logic -- their word, not mine -- is that obviously no one needs to wear a mask in this epidemic because they didn't make us wear one during the AIDS epidemic. No, I'm not making this up. No, I'm not exaggerating.
If we could only come up with a device to keep these people from putting their own heads up their own (or Trump's) ass.
Thank you! You make our craziest politicians to appear totally normal.
Post by: BussoV6 on March 12, 2021, 02:18:56 AM
I've been thinking about this thread, and hoping time & a lack/decline of Trump news would help. I'm sorry to hear that's not the case.Quote from: Bertoldt Brecht in his play, [b][/b]Arturo UiDon't yet rejoice in his defeat, you men! Although the world stood up and stopped the bastard, The bitch that bore him is in heat again.”
The folks behind this and those who want to benefit from this movement are still working to make it happen. The GOP whack-jobs are in charge in many state legislatures.
For example, the Arizona GOP run state legislature just removed the statewide mask mandate. Their logic -- their word, not mine -- is that obviously no one needs to wear a mask in this epidemic because they didn't make us wear one during the AIDS epidemic. No, I'm not making this up. No, I'm not exaggerating.
If we could only come up with a device to keep these people from putting their own heads up their own (or Trump's) ass.
Thank you! You make our craziest politicians to appear totally normal.
I have lots of friends living in Arizona and I have previously asked them why Arizona appears to be the butt of so many jokes. I think I understand why.
Post by: talltexan on March 12, 2021, 05:20:40 AM
It must be that I start off knowing smart people and dumb people, and the smart people move to places.
Post by: jrhampt on March 12, 2021, 10:53:03 AM
Post by: SwordGuy on March 12, 2021, 12:10:57 PM
The only -- and I mean the only -- thing that might have saved her is that she was not very computer literate at all. But by God, she was a ready mark for the alt-right craziness.
Post by: talltexan on March 12, 2021, 12:59:16 PM
They're not on Facebook, so they don't see what everyone else in the family posts. I do.
Post by: wenchsenior on March 12, 2021, 04:24:14 PM
Maybe it's because I never lived there, but I only know smart people from Arizona. A former roommate who is an engineering professor. My former academic advisor. A law school friend.
It must be that I start off knowing smart people and dumb people, and the smart people move to places.
I'd take Arizona over Texas any day of the week as a place to live (was just looking at real estate over there, in fact), but MAN the politics in AZ have been insane since at least the 1980s, before I lived there. Scandal after scandal after scandal after scandal. It used to be that Illinois and Arizona always had the insane politics...now, alas, they have A LOT of competition. Texas being a front-runner.
Post by: ysette9 on March 13, 2021, 04:09:39 PM
It has come out over the past couple of weeks that my parents and three of their siblings are not planning to get vaccinated. One of them is really into deep state conspiracy theories and had been sending "information" from America's Frontline Doctors aka the Plandemic group to the other siblings, and they bought it. All of us who have tried to reason with our parents so far - including cousins in the medical field who have worked with covid patients - have failed. It's causing a big rift within our family because I really want no part of whatever craziness my parents have bought into and I feel like I don't recognize them anymore at times. So I have decided to cut off all contact with them at least for the time being, because I've said everything I can say and NOTHING will persuade them. I haven't seen them in a year and a half due to covid and travel restrictions (they live out of state in the deep south) and was getting really excited about being to see them again, but that is not to be.I’m sorry. That is sad.
I miss my family a lot, but with one dose down so far, I know I will eventually see my parents again. It looks like you have nothing to look forward to on that front.
Post by: Just Joe on March 14, 2021, 07:42:41 AM
I had to distance myself from one this week. Reasonable in person but off-the-rails by email or social media. I have joined FB only for hobby support, relative wanted to friend me. Told them I don't really socialize in the typical FB way, just there for hobbies. Didn't take long for the conservative rumor grade stuff to start spilling out from their account. Nope. Unfollow.
Post by: talltexan on March 16, 2021, 06:28:22 AM
It's very refreshing, because part of me knows how limited the time is, so I don't waste it on the people who post things that are dumb. In fact, it's working so well I might go into my settings and change it down to seventy-five.
Post by: Just Joe on March 16, 2021, 07:28:33 AM
Post by: GuitarStv on March 16, 2021, 07:58:30 AM
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on March 16, 2021, 09:22:30 AM
I keep thinking about the cult/ conspiracy vs religion thought that someone posted above.
I guess rationally there's a more concrete proof that Hillary has a children's sex shop in a pizza parlor than proof that God is real?
I mean Hillary is real, pizza shops are real, children are confirmable also..... So some of that argument is confirmable.
But I've never considered it crazy that so many people have a blind faith in religion. - Even though it lacks in facts and proof just as much as this Qanon non sense.
My ultimate conclusion is people will believe what they want and some people are more skeptical that others and there's really no amount of proof or evidence I could present to change their belief. - they live in a world that doesn't require facts or evidence. As long as I keep that in mind, the whole thinking process actually makes sense and so do the results.
I have a parent that still believes covid is hoax even though 2/3 of their children had it. We just had a "cold".
As I said above people believe what they want and there isn't much you can do to change that.
Post by: SunnyDays on March 16, 2021, 09:32:49 AM
South Parks most recent episode poked fun at the Qannon stuff in their comical way.
I keep thinking about the cult/ conspiracy vs religion thought that someone posted above.
I guess rationally there's a more concrete proof that Hillary has a children's sex shop in a pizza parlor than proof that God is real?
I mean Hillary is real, pizza shops are real, children are confirmable also..... So some of that argument is confirmable.
But I've never considered it crazy that so many people have a blind faith in religion. - Even though it lacks in facts and proof just as much as this Qanon non sense.
My ultimate conclusion is people will believe what they want and some people are more skeptical that others and there's really no amount of proof or evidence I could present to change their belief. - they live in a world that doesn't require facts or evidence. As long as I keep that in mind, the whole thinking process actually makes sense and so do the results.
I have a parent that still believes covid is hoax even though 2/3 of their children had it. We just had a "cold".
As I said above people believe what they want and there isn't much you can do to change that.
I'm currently reading "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins - you might be interested in that. One really can't argue with his logic.
Post by: dandarc on March 16, 2021, 09:46:27 AM
Post by: the_fixer on March 16, 2021, 01:38:02 PM
If we are talking religion FSM FTW
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: GuitarStv on March 16, 2021, 01:42:02 PM
Post by: OtherJen on March 16, 2021, 05:38:18 PM
Pasta be upon you.
Blessed be the noodly appendages. Ramen.
Post by: the_fixer on March 16, 2021, 05:48:54 PM
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Post by: KarefulKactus15 on March 17, 2021, 06:40:45 AM
South Parks most recent episode poked fun at the Qannon stuff in their comical way.
I keep thinking about the cult/ conspiracy vs religion thought that someone posted above.
I guess rationally there's a more concrete proof that Hillary has a children's sex shop in a pizza parlor than proof that God is real?
I mean Hillary is real, pizza shops are real, children are confirmable also..... So some of that argument is confirmable.
But I've never considered it crazy that so many people have a blind faith in religion. - Even though it lacks in facts and proof just as much as this Qanon non sense.
My ultimate conclusion is people will believe what they want and some people are more skeptical that others and there's really no amount of proof or evidence I could present to change their belief. - they live in a world that doesn't require facts or evidence. As long as I keep that in mind, the whole thinking process actually makes sense and so do the results.
I have a parent that still believes covid is hoax even though 2/3 of their children had it. We just had a "cold".
As I said above people believe what they want and there isn't much you can do to change that.
I'm currently reading "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins - you might be interested in that. One really can't argue with his logic.
I enjoyed "the selfish gene" - so I might give that one a look.
Post by: Roots&Wings on March 18, 2021, 06:36:06 AM
It has come out over the past couple of weeks that my parents and three of their siblings are not planning to get vaccinated. One of them is really into deep state conspiracy theories and had been sending "information" from America's Frontline Doctors aka the Plandemic group to the other siblings, and they bought it. All of us who have tried to reason with our parents so far - including cousins in the medical field who have worked with covid patients - have failed. It's causing a big rift within our family because I really want no part of whatever craziness my parents have bought into and I feel like I don't recognize them anymore at times. So I have decided to cut off all contact with them at least for the time being, because I've said everything I can say and NOTHING will persuade them. I haven't seen them in a year and a half due to covid and travel restrictions (they live out of state in the deep south) and was getting really excited about being to see them again, but that is not to be.I’m sorry. That is sad.
+1 Did Trump's recent endorsement of the "great" and "safe" vaccine help things?
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on March 18, 2021, 08:06:53 AM
I’m sorry. That is sad.
+1 Did Trump's recent endorsement of the "great" and "safe" vaccine help things?
Help? Maybe a little, but this https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/03/18/tuchman-vaccine-trump-biden-coronavirus-vpx.cnn
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on March 18, 2021, 09:08:54 AM
Post by: Arbitrage on March 18, 2021, 09:34:56 AM
At least both he and my mother did get the vaccine recently. I'm not sure if he had reservations about it, but I know that he definitely saw it as the best way to assuage our fears and spend time openly with our kids, whose company he treasures.
Post by: OtherJen on March 18, 2021, 09:42:02 AM
"Donald Trump's a liberal from New York" - so don't listen to him either now. At least they form their own opinions....
But I was told that he renounced his liberal ways and moved to Florida when he found the GQP and
Post by: SwordGuy on March 18, 2021, 10:49:56 AM
"Donald Trump's a liberal from New York" - so don't listen to him either now. At least they form their own opinions....
But I was told that he renounced his liberal ways and moved to Florida when he found the GQP andbecameJesus...
I thought Stormy Daniels pretty much confirmed he didn't have a second coming in him...
Post by: ysette9 on March 18, 2021, 12:18:53 PM
"Donald Trump's a liberal from New York" - so don't listen to him either now. At least they form their own opinions....
But I was told that he renounced his liberal ways and moved to Florida when he found the GQP andbecameJesus...
I thought Stormy Daniels pretty much confirmed he didn't have a second coming in him...
Post by: OtherJen on March 18, 2021, 12:24:41 PM
"Donald Trump's a liberal from New York" - so don't listen to him either now. At least they form their own opinions....
But I was told that he renounced his liberal ways and moved to Florida when he found the GQP andbecameJesus...
I thought Stormy Daniels pretty much confirmed he didn't have a second coming in him...
Well played, sir. Well played.
Post by: GuitarStv on March 18, 2021, 01:04:04 PM
"Donald Trump's a liberal from New York" - so don't listen to him either now. At least they form their own opinions....
But I was told that he renounced his liberal ways and moved to Florida when he found the GQP andbecameJesus...
I thought Stormy Daniels pretty much confirmed he didn't have a second coming in him...
Well played, sir. Well played.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/78098415/judges-ok-well-allow-it.jpg)
Post by: BussoV6 on March 19, 2021, 08:50:24 AM
Post by: BicycleB on March 19, 2021, 11:04:32 PM
For anyone still dealing with this stuff, I hope it melts away soon. :)
Post by: SwordGuy on March 19, 2021, 11:14:49 PM
For anyone still dealing with this stuff, I hope it melts away soon. :)
What we need is for the intelligence services to find out who Q is and who is funding them; then drop a half dozen hellfire missiles on all the relevant parties.
Post by: marty998 on March 20, 2021, 01:43:41 AM
For anyone still dealing with this stuff, I hope it melts away soon. :)
What we need is for the intelligence services to find out who Q is and who is funding them; then drop a half dozen hellfire missiles on all the relevant parties.
My money is on Putin.
Post by: SwordGuy on March 20, 2021, 08:10:03 AM
For anyone still dealing with this stuff, I hope it melts away soon. :)
What we need is for the intelligence services to find out who Q is and who is funding them; then drop a half dozen hellfire missiles on all the relevant parties.
My money is on Putin.
Then we need to be more subtle but still get the job done.
Post by: talltexan on March 22, 2021, 09:43:05 AM
We have created the society in which we are awash in information. And there are plenty of benefits to that society. For a curious person, access to valuable and timely information is at its peak. What we're seeing here is an undesirable and unintended consequence of this progress.
Post by: GuitarStv on March 22, 2021, 01:11:39 PM
Unfortunately, we are responsible.
We have created the society in which we are awash in information. And there are plenty of benefits to that society. For a curious person, access to valuable and timely information is at its peak. What we're seeing here is an undesirable and unintended consequence of this progress.
The information age has provided us with nearly the total of humanities research and ideas at our fingertips, anywhere in the world. If you're capable of rational thought and logical thinking this is a huge boon. If you want to search out any liar/charlatan who will say something you want to hear, this is also a huge boon. The problem is not access to information. The 'problem' if you want to call it that, is that we've given people more freedom than before in history to have access to information and to make their own decisions.
There may be an argument to be made for the need for better education to prepare people for the information available. That said, I'm not convinced that society is responsible for the actions of those hellbent on trading their own freedom for more comfortable anti-reality delusions.
Post by: Plina on March 22, 2021, 03:51:13 PM
Unfortunately, we are responsible.
We have created the society in which we are awash in information. And there are plenty of benefits to that society. For a curious person, access to valuable and timely information is at its peak. What we're seeing here is an undesirable and unintended consequence of this progress.
The information age has provided us with nearly the total of humanities research and ideas at our fingertips, anywhere in the world. If you're capable of rational thought and logical thinking this is a huge boon. If you want to search out any liar/charlatan who will say something you want to hear, this is also a huge boon. The problem is not access to information. The 'problem' if you want to call it that, is that we've given people more freedom than before in history to have access to information and to make their own decisions.
There may be an argument to be made for the need for better education to prepare people for the information available. That said, I'm not convinced that society is responsible for the actions of those hellbent on trading their own freedom for more comfortable anti-reality delusions.
I can understand that it might not be such a big problem if you are retired and have anti-reality delusions but how do you deal with a coworker or employee that have those point of views. It might not be a problem in a country were politics is not generally discussed in a workplace but I at least would be pretty annoyed about coworkers ranting about politics and especially if they lived in an alternative reality. If I was an employer, I would also see it as a problem if they were working with customers.
Post by: DadJokes on March 23, 2021, 05:44:04 AM
Believing that FIL was taking out $30k, she signed the paperwork. She found out later that he actually took out $40k, using most of the other $10k on guns.
MIL is furious and doesn't know what to do. She told my wife about it but doesn't think that she can tell her other daughter (very liberal) because she thinks other daughter won't bring her kids over anymore.
We don't even know how to approach this. It's not like we can have an intervention. FIL has been the patriarch of the family for a long time and is very stubborn, despite being an otherwise intelligent person (engineer, mensa-level IQ). If anyone tries to convince him otherwise, he's just going to dig his heels in on his actions.
If things don't change, my in-laws, who are 60, are going to end up divorced.
Post by: the_fixer on March 23, 2021, 07:33:33 AM
My father-in-law (FIL) has been in full prep mode lately, convinced that something terrible is going to happen. He convinced my mother-in-law (MIL) to take $30k out of their retirement for gold and silver coins. She went along with it, because there's no talking him out of things once he's set his mind to something.Switching the 30k to 40k was wrong they discussed it and he should have stuck with the agreed upon amount and should apologize to his spouse.
Believing that FIL was taking out $30k, she signed the paperwork. She found out later that he actually took out $40k, using most of the other $10k on guns.
MIL is furious and doesn't know what to do. She told my wife about it but doesn't think that she can tell her other daughter (very liberal) because she thinks other daughter won't bring her kids over anymore.
We don't even know how to approach this. It's not like we can have an intervention. FIL has been the patriarch of the family for a long time and is very stubborn, despite being an otherwise intelligent person (engineer, mensa-level IQ). If anyone tries to convince him otherwise, he's just going to dig his heels in on his actions.
If things don't change, my in-laws, who are 60, are going to end up divorced.
Another consideration is what portion of their net worth it represents? If is a small portion and he has sound reasons and sees it as a way to hedge his bet and protect his family what is the big deal? Now if it is the majority of their assets then he better have some insider info and be certain that this is the way. Some people buy gold and guns some buy bitcoin some buy passports and property in other countries.
However if he is rational, intelligent and otherwise of sound mind maybe he truly feels this is the best way to take care of his family based on what he is seeing and feeling?
I do not think that it is too far of a leap from where we are to a bad situation.
1. Look back just a few months ago, we were in a precarious situation with a president that lost an election trying everything he could to overturn an election. Change a few things like some of the people that resisted his pressure actually caving and allowing him to throw out large portions of the votes to secure a illegitimate win. I think we might have a civil war on our hands or at least massive riots with major blood in the streets. What if the people that stormed the capital were a little more organized or managed to get ahold of the VP and a bunch of senators and congress and killed them?
Was this a one time occurrence? Will we see it happen again? I know having some assets to trade and ways to protect my family have crossed my mind in the last 8 years but so far I have resisted.
2. We are in the middle of a global pandemic with a virus that is mutating with probably years to go before it is brought under control world wide (possibly not eradicated in our lifetime). None of us know what the future holds with this virus.
Maybe have a genuine conversation with him and find out why he is concerned enough to take the steps mentioned.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on March 23, 2021, 08:11:25 AM
My father-in-law (FIL) has been in full prep mode lately, convinced that something terrible is going to happen. He convinced my mother-in-law (MIL) to take $30k out of their retirement for gold and silver coins. She went along with it, because there's no talking him out of things once he's set his mind to something.Switching the 30k to 40k was wrong they discussed it and he should have stuck with the agreed upon amount and should apologize to his spouse.
Believing that FIL was taking out $30k, she signed the paperwork. She found out later that he actually took out $40k, using most of the other $10k on guns.
MIL is furious and doesn't know what to do. She told my wife about it but doesn't think that she can tell her other daughter (very liberal) because she thinks other daughter won't bring her kids over anymore.
We don't even know how to approach this. It's not like we can have an intervention. FIL has been the patriarch of the family for a long time and is very stubborn, despite being an otherwise intelligent person (engineer, mensa-level IQ). If anyone tries to convince him otherwise, he's just going to dig his heels in on his actions.
If things don't change, my in-laws, who are 60, are going to end up divorced.
Another consideration is what portion of their net worth it represents? If is a small portion and he has sound reasons and sees it as a way to hedge his bet and protect his family what is the big deal? Now if it is the majority of their assets then he better have some insider info and be certain that this is the way. Some people buy gold and guns some buy bitcoin some buy passports and property in other countries.
However if he is rational, intelligent and otherwise of sound mind maybe he truly feels this is the best way to take care of his family based on what he is seeing and feeling?
I do not think that it is too far of a leap from where we are to a bad situation.
1. Look back just a few months ago, we were in a precarious situation with a president that lost an election trying everything he could to overturn an election. Change a few things like some of the people that resisted his pressure actually caving and allowing him to throw out large portions of the votes to secure a illegitimate win. I think we might have a civil war on our hands or at least massive riots with major blood in the streets. What if the people that stormed the capital were a little more organized or managed to get ahold of the VP and a bunch of senators and congress and killed them?
Was this a one time occurrence? Will we see it happen again? I know having some assets to trade and ways to protect my family have crossed my mind in the last 8 years but so far I have resisted.
2. We are in the middle of a global pandemic with a virus that is mutating with probably years to go before it is brought under control world wide (possibly not eradicated in our lifetime). None of us know what the future holds with this virus.
Maybe have a genuine conversation with him and find out why he is concerned enough to take the steps mentioned.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
+1 tho I would never discuss such things with my FIL or MIL. Their marriage, their problems. Unless that $40k leaves them broke and they have to live with me.
Post by: the_fixer on March 23, 2021, 08:54:51 AM
My father-in-law (FIL) has been in full prep mode lately, convinced that something terrible is going to happen. He convinced my mother-in-law (MIL) to take $30k out of their retirement for gold and silver coins. She went along with it, because there's no talking him out of things once he's set his mind to something.Switching the 30k to 40k was wrong they discussed it and he should have stuck with the agreed upon amount and should apologize to his spouse.
Believing that FIL was taking out $30k, she signed the paperwork. She found out later that he actually took out $40k, using most of the other $10k on guns.
MIL is furious and doesn't know what to do. She told my wife about it but doesn't think that she can tell her other daughter (very liberal) because she thinks other daughter won't bring her kids over anymore.
We don't even know how to approach this. It's not like we can have an intervention. FIL has been the patriarch of the family for a long time and is very stubborn, despite being an otherwise intelligent person (engineer, mensa-level IQ). If anyone tries to convince him otherwise, he's just going to dig his heels in on his actions.
If things don't change, my in-laws, who are 60, are going to end up divorced.
Another consideration is what portion of their net worth it represents? If is a small portion and he has sound reasons and sees it as a way to hedge his bet and protect his family what is the big deal? Now if it is the majority of their assets then he better have some insider info and be certain that this is the way. Some people buy gold and guns some buy bitcoin some buy passports and property in other countries.
However if he is rational, intelligent and otherwise of sound mind maybe he truly feels this is the best way to take care of his family based on what he is seeing and feeling?
I do not think that it is too far of a leap from where we are to a bad situation.
1. Look back just a few months ago, we were in a precarious situation with a president that lost an election trying everything he could to overturn an election. Change a few things like some of the people that resisted his pressure actually caving and allowing him to throw out large portions of the votes to secure a illegitimate win. I think we might have a civil war on our hands or at least massive riots with major blood in the streets. What if the people that stormed the capital were a little more organized or managed to get ahold of the VP and a bunch of senators and congress and killed them?
Was this a one time occurrence? Will we see it happen again? I know having some assets to trade and ways to protect my family have crossed my mind in the last 8 years but so far I have resisted.
2. We are in the middle of a global pandemic with a virus that is mutating with probably years to go before it is brought under control world wide (possibly not eradicated in our lifetime). None of us know what the future holds with this virus.
Maybe have a genuine conversation with him and find out why he is concerned enough to take the steps mentioned.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
+1 tho I would never discuss such things with my FIL or MIL. Their marriage, their problems. Unless that $40k leaves them broke and they have to live with me.
I would not get in the middle or want to be in their business about finances but if I saw someone that I described as
“intelligent person (engineer, mensa-level IQ)”
I would certainly want to understand where they are coming from and what is behind their reasoning. An honest non eye rolling conversation to understand and educate myself about this person and why they feel this way. Maybe it is quackery conspiracy theory stuff and then I know that I need to be aware or maybe more thought has gone into it or maybe they are aware of potential issues on the rise and I can learn from it.
Never hurts to understand where someone is coming from.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: DadJokes on March 23, 2021, 08:59:01 AM
My father-in-law (FIL) has been in full prep mode lately, convinced that something terrible is going to happen. He convinced my mother-in-law (MIL) to take $30k out of their retirement for gold and silver coins. She went along with it, because there's no talking him out of things once he's set his mind to something.Switching the 30k to 40k was wrong they discussed it and he should have stuck with the agreed upon amount and should apologize to his spouse.
Believing that FIL was taking out $30k, she signed the paperwork. She found out later that he actually took out $40k, using most of the other $10k on guns.
MIL is furious and doesn't know what to do. She told my wife about it but doesn't think that she can tell her other daughter (very liberal) because she thinks other daughter won't bring her kids over anymore.
We don't even know how to approach this. It's not like we can have an intervention. FIL has been the patriarch of the family for a long time and is very stubborn, despite being an otherwise intelligent person (engineer, mensa-level IQ). If anyone tries to convince him otherwise, he's just going to dig his heels in on his actions.
If things don't change, my in-laws, who are 60, are going to end up divorced.
Another consideration is what portion of their net worth it represents? If is a small portion and he has sound reasons and sees it as a way to hedge his bet and protect his family what is the big deal? Now if it is the majority of their assets then he better have some insider info and be certain that this is the way. Some people buy gold and guns some buy bitcoin some buy passports and property in other countries.
However if he is rational, intelligent and otherwise of sound mind maybe he truly feels this is the best way to take care of his family based on what he is seeing and feeling?
I do not think that it is too far of a leap from where we are to a bad situation.
1. Look back just a few months ago, we were in a precarious situation with a president that lost an election trying everything he could to overturn an election. Change a few things like some of the people that resisted his pressure actually caving and allowing him to throw out large portions of the votes to secure a illegitimate win. I think we might have a civil war on our hands or at least massive riots with major blood in the streets. What if the people that stormed the capital were a little more organized or managed to get ahold of the VP and a bunch of senators and congress and killed them?
Was this a one time occurrence? Will we see it happen again? I know having some assets to trade and ways to protect my family have crossed my mind in the last 8 years but so far I have resisted.
2. We are in the middle of a global pandemic with a virus that is mutating with probably years to go before it is brought under control world wide (possibly not eradicated in our lifetime). None of us know what the future holds with this virus.
Maybe have a genuine conversation with him and find out why he is concerned enough to take the steps mentioned.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
He's not buying gold/silver to hedge with his portfolio. He's getting coins to use for bartering if shit hits the fan, and he's probably spent $20k+ on guns in the decade I've known him.
As for concerns about civil war, life in the rural southeast isn't going to change. Concerned about how far he has taken things, MIL said she'd rather die than deal with the craziness he's worried about, to which he replied, "There are worse things than death." I infer from that that he thinks we're not a far cry from concentration camps.
I don't think that he'll spend their whole retirement or anything (if they died with $0, I wouldn't care - both my wife and her sister are doing fine). I'm more concerned for MIL dealing with him.
Post by: talltexan on March 23, 2021, 09:12:35 AM
Post by: the_fixer on March 23, 2021, 09:15:25 AM
You know the situation better than me I just try to look at things from all angles and take it as an opportunity to learn. Maybe I learn the person is unstable and I need to protect my family or maybe I see a viewpoint that I would not normally see.My father-in-law (FIL) has been in full prep mode lately, convinced that something terrible is going to happen. He convinced my mother-in-law (MIL) to take $30k out of their retirement for gold and silver coins. She went along with it, because there's no talking him out of things once he's set his mind to something.Switching the 30k to 40k was wrong they discussed it and he should have stuck with the agreed upon amount and should apologize to his spouse.
Believing that FIL was taking out $30k, she signed the paperwork. She found out later that he actually took out $40k, using most of the other $10k on guns.
MIL is furious and doesn't know what to do. She told my wife about it but doesn't think that she can tell her other daughter (very liberal) because she thinks other daughter won't bring her kids over anymore.
We don't even know how to approach this. It's not like we can have an intervention. FIL has been the patriarch of the family for a long time and is very stubborn, despite being an otherwise intelligent person (engineer, mensa-level IQ). If anyone tries to convince him otherwise, he's just going to dig his heels in on his actions.
If things don't change, my in-laws, who are 60, are going to end up divorced.
Another consideration is what portion of their net worth it represents? If is a small portion and he has sound reasons and sees it as a way to hedge his bet and protect his family what is the big deal? Now if it is the majority of their assets then he better have some insider info and be certain that this is the way. Some people buy gold and guns some buy bitcoin some buy passports and property in other countries.
However if he is rational, intelligent and otherwise of sound mind maybe he truly feels this is the best way to take care of his family based on what he is seeing and feeling?
I do not think that it is too far of a leap from where we are to a bad situation.
1. Look back just a few months ago, we were in a precarious situation with a president that lost an election trying everything he could to overturn an election. Change a few things like some of the people that resisted his pressure actually caving and allowing him to throw out large portions of the votes to secure a illegitimate win. I think we might have a civil war on our hands or at least massive riots with major blood in the streets. What if the people that stormed the capital were a little more organized or managed to get ahold of the VP and a bunch of senators and congress and killed them?
Was this a one time occurrence? Will we see it happen again? I know having some assets to trade and ways to protect my family have crossed my mind in the last 8 years but so far I have resisted.
2. We are in the middle of a global pandemic with a virus that is mutating with probably years to go before it is brought under control world wide (possibly not eradicated in our lifetime). None of us know what the future holds with this virus.
Maybe have a genuine conversation with him and find out why he is concerned enough to take the steps mentioned.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
He's not buying gold/silver to hedge with his portfolio. He's getting coins to use for bartering if shit hits the fan, and he's probably spent $20k+ on guns in the decade I've known him.
As for concerns about civil war, life in the rural southeast isn't going to change. Concerned about how far he has taken things, MIL said she'd rather die than deal with the craziness he's worried about, to which he replied, "There are worse things than death." I infer from that that he thinks we're not a far cry from concentration camps.
I don't think that he'll spend their whole retirement or anything (if they died with $0, I wouldn't care - both my wife and her sister are doing fine). I'm more concerned for MIL dealing with him.
I would consider his buying of gold / silver as a hedge not against the stock market gyrations but for survival in SHTF situations. If the us currency is worthless and metal, guns, food, your body, your skills, Bitcoin or whatever commodity has value then he has options.
You are under no obligation to engage or understand but I am an inquisitive person and would want to better understand.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Just Joe on March 23, 2021, 09:43:28 AM
The guns and ammo industry are benefiting so much from the past 25+ years. Every situation seems to lead to buying more damn guns. My coworker tells me he stood in line at a local retailer the other day (restock day) to buy more ammo. Why? Because you just never know.
These people who have all the guns and their paranoia worry me more than anything else. See Jan 6th for example. But - I'm not going to dwell on it.
Post by: CodingHare on March 23, 2021, 10:05:42 AM
My father-in-law (FIL) has been in full prep mode lately, convinced that something terrible is going to happen. He convinced my mother-in-law (MIL) to take $30k out of their retirement for gold and silver coins. She went along with it, because there's no talking him out of things once he's set his mind to something.
Believing that FIL was taking out $30k, she signed the paperwork. She found out later that he actually took out $40k, using most of the other $10k on guns.
MIL is furious and doesn't know what to do. She told my wife about it but doesn't think that she can tell her other daughter (very liberal) because she thinks other daughter won't bring her kids over anymore.
We don't even know how to approach this. It's not like we can have an intervention. FIL has been the patriarch of the family for a long time and is very stubborn, despite being an otherwise intelligent person (engineer, mensa-level IQ). If anyone tries to convince him otherwise, he's just going to dig his heels in on his actions.
If things don't change, my in-laws, who are 60, are going to end up divorced.
Disclaimer: I don't have kids yet. But if I was taking my hypothetical kids over to a house that suddenly had $10k more guns in it and no one gave me a head up, I'd be pissed. Especially if it was a house with no guns in it before. My dad had a gun, but kept it disassembled at all times and the parts in two different parts of the house. Is FIL spending part of that money on gun safes? Either way if I found out the whole family but me knew and deliberately didn't tell me to maintain access to my kids, that would all be family with no access to my kids going forward.
Stealing (the not nice word for taking money that your spouse hasn't agreed to) $10k alone would merit counseling and potential divorce in my book. But I take financial security seriously, and spending $40k on end of the world scenarios seems very insecure. Besides, in a real SHTF scenario, who is going to buy your gold? The valuable thing would be food and medical supplies. So in addition to falling for a conspiracy theory, he isn't even prepping sensibly.
Post by: Apples on March 23, 2021, 10:54:09 AM
I come from a gun house (with guns in safes, but also some on display). You probably won't notice the $10k in additional guns unless FIL wants to show you, specifically.
Post by: DadJokes on March 23, 2021, 11:16:46 AM
My father-in-law (FIL) has been in full prep mode lately, convinced that something terrible is going to happen. He convinced my mother-in-law (MIL) to take $30k out of their retirement for gold and silver coins. She went along with it, because there's no talking him out of things once he's set his mind to something.
Believing that FIL was taking out $30k, she signed the paperwork. She found out later that he actually took out $40k, using most of the other $10k on guns.
MIL is furious and doesn't know what to do. She told my wife about it but doesn't think that she can tell her other daughter (very liberal) because she thinks other daughter won't bring her kids over anymore.
We don't even know how to approach this. It's not like we can have an intervention. FIL has been the patriarch of the family for a long time and is very stubborn, despite being an otherwise intelligent person (engineer, mensa-level IQ). If anyone tries to convince him otherwise, he's just going to dig his heels in on his actions.
If things don't change, my in-laws, who are 60, are going to end up divorced.
Disclaimer: I don't have kids yet. But if I was taking my hypothetical kids over to a house that suddenly had $10k more guns in it and no one gave me a head up, I'd be pissed. Especially if it was a house with no guns in it before. My dad had a gun, but kept it disassembled at all times and the parts in two different parts of the house. Is FIL spending part of that money on gun safes? Either way if I found out the whole family but me knew and deliberately didn't tell me to maintain access to my kids, that would all be family with no access to my kids going forward.
Stealing (the not nice word for taking money that your spouse hasn't agreed to) $10k alone would merit counseling and potential divorce in my book. But I take financial security seriously, and spending $40k on end of the world scenarios seems very insecure. Besides, in a real SHTF scenario, who is going to buy your gold? The valuable thing would be food and medical supplies. So in addition to falling for a conspiracy theory, he isn't even prepping sensibly.
He already had plenty of guns and a safe. In fact, he recently upgraded to a bigger safe and sold me his old one, since we have two sidearms and a rifle and were about to buy one now that our child is old enough to move around. Before he upgraded his safe, guns were not always in the safe due to lack of space. I should probably confirm that they are kept in the safe now.
I do agree that not telling the other daughter could be problematic as well.
Post by: dandarc on March 23, 2021, 12:26:58 PM
Post by: Plina on March 23, 2021, 03:06:52 PM
Bringing back memories of first time I visited my now in-laws. Dropped something on the floor, rolled under a bed, I go to get it and I'm looking at the business end of a dozen shotguns . . . if there were kids around I'd have reacted a whole lot differently.
I was competing in biathlon as a kid so I had a rifle in my wardrobe and the ammos under my bed. This was before gunsafes were mandatory. 30 years later people would think you are crazy. It was always understod that rifles were not for playing but hunting or competing.
Post by: Psychstache on March 23, 2021, 06:29:44 PM
There's a podcast called "My Year in Mensa" a lot of you should listen to. Being able to pass a test to prove you're very smart, does not actually make you better at life and problems than other people. You're still susceptible to being a jerk and falling for conspiracy stuff.
Yeah, I know I have said it multiple times already on this forum, but as someone trained to give IQ test for a living, but whatever value you (the royal you, not any particular poster) place in an IQ test, you should lower it.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on March 23, 2021, 07:14:32 PM
There's a podcast called "My Year in Mensa" a lot of you should listen to. Being able to pass a test to prove you're very smart, does not actually make you better at life and problems than other people. You're still susceptible to being a jerk and falling for conspiracy stuff.
Yeah, I know I have said it multiple times already on this forum, but as someone trained to give IQ test for a living, but whatever value you (the royal you, not any particular poster) place in an IQ test, you should lower it.
IQ and character are different qualities. Plus I have seen Mensans joke about the only thing being a Mensan means is that you are really good at taking IQ tests. ;-)
However, I have fond memories of a Mensa gathering (a big loud noisy boisterous one that also had some lovely quiet areas) where there were buttons for hugs - yes, ask first, and no. My introvert self really appreciated the thoughtfulness of those buttons.
Post by: talltexan on March 24, 2021, 06:18:58 AM
Bringing back memories of first time I visited my now in-laws. Dropped something on the floor, rolled under a bed, I go to get it and I'm looking at the business end of a dozen shotguns . . . if there were kids around I'd have reacted a whole lot differently.
I was competing in biathlon as a kid so I had a rifle in my wardrobe and the ammos under my bed. This was before gunsafes were mandatory. 30 years later people would think you are crazy. It was always understod that rifles were not for playing but hunting or competing.
What understanding did your family have with handling of these guns while friends of yours were visiting? Growing up in Texas (ages 7-15), I was accustomed to visiting households with guns, but--if I was told where the guns were--they were in locked cabinets.
Post by: DadJokes on March 24, 2021, 07:02:14 AM
When I next talk with MIL, I'll recommend that she express her concerns to her other daughter as well.
Post by: Apples on March 24, 2021, 07:37:39 AM
There's a podcast called "My Year in Mensa" a lot of you should listen to. Being able to pass a test to prove you're very smart, does not actually make you better at life and problems than other people. You're still susceptible to being a jerk and falling for conspiracy stuff.
Yeah, I know I have said it multiple times already on this forum, but as someone trained to give IQ test for a living, but whatever value you (the royal you, not any particular poster) place in an IQ test, you should lower it.
Haha! Fun anecdote about me: I took the IQ test as an elementary schooler to see if I qualified into the Gifted program at my school...3 times! 1st, 3rd, and 4th grade (5th started middle school, and they pretty much stopped testing at that point). I never hit that 130 IQ cutoff, BUT I did learn that the stupid guy standing there in a suit is missing...a watch! And I never figured out what order the sunset pictures were supposed to go in, and I could never get the picture of the paperclip put together right. Those 3 things are what I remember from taking the test all those times, along with fun vocab words. As an adult, I work on a farm and struggle to run equipment because my mind is quite bad at spatial stuff, so looking back I'm not surprised I couldn't pass the test to get into Gifted.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on March 24, 2021, 09:07:28 AM
He prepped not only for civil war type stuff, but also meteor strikes and other natural disasters. (I should also note that he was very financially savvy, he got his financial situation in order first as that had a higher probability than a meteor strike being the end)
So that isn't too bonkers at all. Where I get concerned is when people are making decisions based on incorrect input information.
Thats what I found out when I decided to take about 4 hours of my life and genuinely listen and try to understand my Qanon believing family member.
Unfortunately alot of the information they believe is down right fake and easily disprovable, but they refuse to accept it which is why I created this thread. How does one have a conversation when you cant even agree on a secondary issue like how to determine facts? I read that as a strategy in "getting to yes" - If you cant agree on something, perhaps you can agree on how to agree on something. But the goal post constantly moves to fit their narrative so its a pretty lost cause.
Post by: Plina on March 24, 2021, 10:16:23 AM
Bringing back memories of first time I visited my now in-laws. Dropped something on the floor, rolled under a bed, I go to get it and I'm looking at the business end of a dozen shotguns . . . if there were kids around I'd have reacted a whole lot differently.
I was competing in biathlon as a kid so I had a rifle in my wardrobe and the ammos under my bed. This was before gunsafes were mandatory. 30 years later people would think you are crazy. It was always understod that rifles were not for playing but hunting or competing.
What understanding did your family have with handling of these guns while friends of yours were visiting? Growing up in Texas (ages 7-15), I was accustomed to visiting households with guns, but--if I was told where the guns were--they were in locked cabinets.
My fathers point of view have always been that guns are not toys and they should not be played with. I grew up in a little village in northern Sweden so most of the houses had rifles for hunting. The hunting rifles were behind lock and the biathlon rifle was out of the house when my brother grew up, when it might have been a bigger problem. Both my brother and father hunt. I don’t have a license so today I can only shoot in company of someone with a license. I know that most of the houses in the village have or had rifles for hunting or competing because they hunted but it is not something that was unusual. I guess the kids got the same message as we. It is really difficult to get a license to own a handgun in Sweden. You have to belong to a shootingclub, compete and have someone vouche for you.
Post by: CodingHare on March 24, 2021, 11:37:21 AM
...I used to spend a lot of time reading a blog called Less Wrong, that mostly aimed to teach people how to overcome cognitive biases and if not arrive at the truth, at least attempt to be... Less Wrong. :) That forum has it's own groupthink and weird idiosyncrasies, but there are few pearls of wisdom there.
Unfortunately alot of the information they believe is down right fake and easily disprovable, but they refuse to accept it which is why I created this thread. How does one have a conversation when you cant even agree on a secondary issue like how to determine facts? I read that as a strategy in "getting to yes" - If you cant agree on something, perhaps you can agree on how to agree on something. But the goal post constantly moves to fit their narrative so its a pretty lost cause.
One of them is, human brains did not evolve to arrive at the truth. They evolved to outcompete other humans for resources and reproduce. Therefore there is an evolutionary argument for humans employing arguments not as ideas to be disproven and replaced with a more factual argument" but as soldiers to beat out other humans for political and social advantage. The truth has to confer some advantage to be considered--if it doesn't, who cares? A lie can still advance your political and social causes, so why not use it?
Arguments as soldiers. To be employed on the battlefield when it benefits you and tossed without a thought when they are defeated, only to pull out another soldier to defend your turf.
Also human brains are very good at cognitive dissonance, holding two mutually exclusive ideas to be true. Things feeling true is indistinguishable from them actually being true from the brain's perspective. So that explains how brains can have a fact disproven and not waver in their support for the idea. Belief is not contingent on facts, so things being disproven won't change the belief.
All of this is armchair evolutionary psychology, of course. But I think realizing these aren't ideas QAnon people reasoned themselves into really helps explain why you can't reason them out of them.
Things that sometimes work: Cutting them off from the source of the misinformation (so their arguments stop feeling reinforced by the universe). Emotionally appealing to them (see I support <controversial social issue> now that my child came out as <being/having done controversial social issue>). Sometimes ridicule if it comes from someone in their social circle or threatens cutting them off from their social circle. Sometimes that backfires and pushes them further into the social circle of other QAnoners.
Post by: Poundwise on March 26, 2021, 04:16:05 PM
Why does being really intelligent make someone more/less likely to subscribe to conspiracy theories?
Being above average in anything can lead to arrogance. Frequently, people who are knowledgeable in one or two things, come to believe that they are knowledgeable in ALL things.
Post by: Just Joe on March 29, 2021, 02:22:08 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGOOCP1wH-Y
Tries to convince me it is real... Elder thinks it is real. Oh boy...
Post by: talltexan on March 29, 2021, 02:40:18 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/03/29/republicans-want-you-call-their-policies-racist-its-part-their-plan/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/03/29/republicans-want-you-call-their-policies-racist-its-part-their-plan/)
Post by: GuitarStv on March 29, 2021, 02:54:48 PM
I'm really curious to hear the group respond to this article in the Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/03/29/republicans-want-you-call-their-policies-racist-its-part-their-plan/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/03/29/republicans-want-you-call-their-policies-racist-its-part-their-plan/)
Article is paywalled, so I can't read it . . . but it has been pretty evident that racism is a baked in and desired part of Republican policy at this point. It wouldn't surprise me that they enjoy being called racist for taking blatantly racist action or that they've calculated the average Republican voter will respond positively to racism from the party.
Republicans also have a long history of inventing persecution controversies to motivate their base (War on Christmas, Cancel Culture, etc.) so I can see how being purposely racist in order to argue that they're not really that racist could be something they want.
Post by: OzzieandHarriet on April 02, 2021, 09:13:56 AM
I'm really curious to hear the group respond to this article in the Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/03/29/republicans-want-you-call-their-policies-racist-its-part-their-plan/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/03/29/republicans-want-you-call-their-policies-racist-its-part-their-plan/)
I like his description of Lindsay Graham as a “ninth-degree black belt in feigned outrage.”
Post by: bacchi on April 02, 2021, 09:51:19 AM
I'm really curious to hear the group respond to this article in the Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/03/29/republicans-want-you-call-their-policies-racist-its-part-their-plan/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/03/29/republicans-want-you-call-their-policies-racist-its-part-their-plan/)
I like his description of Lindsay Graham as a “ninth-degree black belt in feigned outrage.”
We've seen the conservative outrage on this forum.
Quote
So in this recent Economist/YouGov poll, 75 percent of Republicans said that in America today conservatives face real discrimination, while 49 percent said the same of Black people.
"Why are they restricting my speech?!?" said the man on the soapbox, with a megaphone, in the middle of town square.
Post by: marty998 on April 03, 2021, 11:33:55 PM
He prepped not only for civil war type stuff, but also meteor strikes and other natural disasters. (I should also note that he was very financially savvy, he got his financial situation in order first as that had a higher probability than a meteor strike being the end)
At least Australia will be safe in that regard. Everyone knows asteroids only strike the North East Coast of the US (thanks Hollywood!)
Post by: SwordGuy on April 05, 2021, 09:19:36 AM
Post by: DadJokes on April 05, 2021, 02:19:52 PM
I'm really curious to hear the group respond to this article in the Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/03/29/republicans-want-you-call-their-policies-racist-its-part-their-plan/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/03/29/republicans-want-you-call-their-policies-racist-its-part-their-plan/)
I like his description of Lindsay Graham as a “ninth-degree black belt in feigned outrage.”
I think there's plenty of that on both sides of the aisle. Politics seems to be about who can be the most outraged...
Post by: talltexan on April 06, 2021, 07:01:04 AM
We're in a period of green shoots when it comes to returning to a life when COVID doesn't have to be considered constantly when planning daily activities, but some people have already been there for six months. And 1,000 new deaths from COVID yesterday sure makes it seem like it ain't over, yet.
Post by: Just Joe on April 07, 2021, 09:33:14 AM
I don't know where I saw this first, perhaps here. DW and I had a good chuckle about it all.
The Republicans can do or say whatever they want to. We'll never vote for them again anyhow.
Post by: talltexan on April 07, 2021, 11:36:17 AM
But I thought he was a globalist deep-stater, she said to herself. Maybe I am. But I'm a globalist who thinks our society is better when you vote than when you are prevented from it.
Post by: SwordGuy on April 07, 2021, 04:37:34 PM
That meant some new people showed up in my "You might know these people list". I recognized one name as someone we both worked with.
Said to myself, "I wonder if this guy is the sociopathic Trump-lover I expect him to be?"
Yep. At the top of his post is a plan to have Trump run for the House of Representatives in 2022, have the Republicans gain control of the house and senate, have Trump chosen as house majority leader, and then impeach Biden and Harris so Trump becomes president again. Who would then run for re-election again.
I shit you not. These people are out there and they are NOT going to change.
Post by: talltexan on April 08, 2021, 07:25:09 AM
Post by: Just Joe on April 13, 2021, 09:53:52 AM
Post by: SwordGuy on April 13, 2021, 10:04:16 AM
Wait, if Hillary was too old to be president - why isn't a 76 year old Trump in Congress a problem? /s
Um, because he's (a) white and (b) male and (c) rich and (d) racist and (e) a bigot and (f) he makes fascist-loving bigots happy? I think that might have something to do with it.
Post by: Just Joe on April 13, 2021, 04:22:10 PM
Post by: talltexan on April 15, 2021, 07:52:52 AM
Wait, if Hillary was too old to be president - why isn't a 76 year old Trump in Congress a problem? /s
Um, because he's (a) white and (b) male and (c) rich and (d) racist and (e) a bigot and (f) he makes fascist-loving bigots happy? I think that might have something to do with it.
This gets at a paradox of the Trump years. Having Trump as President* meant that Republicans were ready to sign on to large fiscal and monetary relief packages in the spring of 2020. They would have never passed those with a Democrat as President.
*I also believe that having a Democrat as President would have also meant would could have contained COVID with testing/tracing as we did with the swine flu in 2009.
Post by: GuitarStv on April 15, 2021, 09:54:07 AM
*I also believe that having a Democrat as President would have also meant would could have contained COVID with testing/tracing as we did with the swine flu in 2009.
Any competent president (Republican or Democrat) would have done a far better job on Covid. The bar really wouldn't be all that high - don't lie constantly about the state of things, don't undermine the efforts of your public health experts, don't pit state against state in a race for resources.
Post by: Cassie on April 15, 2021, 10:13:07 AM
Post by: OtherJen on April 15, 2021, 10:32:57 AM
*I also believe that having a Democrat as President would have also meant would could have contained COVID with testing/tracing as we did with the swine flu in 2009.
Any competent president (Republican or Democrat) would have done a far better job on Covid. The bar really wouldn't be all that high - don't lie constantly about the state of things, don't undermine the efforts of your public health experts, don't pit state against state in a race for resources.
I don't even consider Bush the younger to have been highly competent, but I don't doubt that he would have handled this better. If Trump's ego had left Mike Pence in charge of the COVID response, Pence probably would have handled it better.
Post by: jehovasfitness23 on April 15, 2021, 10:36:30 AM
Any president would have done a competent job with Covid. We were just unlucky enough to have a total idiot in charge.
I really can't think of a worse POTUS to have during this crisis.
Post by: Kris on April 15, 2021, 10:42:20 AM
*I also believe that having a Democrat as President would have also meant would could have contained COVID with testing/tracing as we did with the swine flu in 2009.
Any competent president (Republican or Democrat) would have done a far better job on Covid. The bar really wouldn't be all that high - don't lie constantly about the state of things, don't undermine the efforts of your public health experts, don't pit state against state in a race for resources.
I don't even consider Bush the younger to have been highly competent, but I don't doubt that he would have handled this better. If Trump's ego had left Mike Pence in charge of the COVID response, Pence probably would have handled it better.
Definitely. All Trump would have had to do was let other people take control and go golfing, and the Covid response would have been immeasurably better.
Post by: SwordGuy on April 15, 2021, 11:04:30 AM
*I also believe that having a Democrat as President would have also meant would could have contained COVID with testing/tracing as we did with the swine flu in 2009.
Any competent president (Republican or Democrat) would have done a far better job on Covid. The bar really wouldn't be all that high - don't lie constantly about the state of things, don't undermine the efforts of your public health experts, don't pit state against state in a race for resources.
I don't even consider Bush the younger to have been highly competent, but I don't doubt that he would have handled this better. If Trump's ego had left Mike Pence in charge of the COVID response, Pence probably would have handled it better.
Bush the younger was responsible for the ability of the federal government to respond at all -- he is the one who personally forced the feds to prepare for pandemics and got things set up to do it. Obama took a damned good idea and improved on it. Trump tossed it in the trash and dismantled a great deal of it before the pandemic hit. And then that SOB knowingly did damn near everything wrong after that.
Post by: OtherJen on April 15, 2021, 11:13:11 AM
*I also believe that having a Democrat as President would have also meant would could have contained COVID with testing/tracing as we did with the swine flu in 2009.
Any competent president (Republican or Democrat) would have done a far better job on Covid. The bar really wouldn't be all that high - don't lie constantly about the state of things, don't undermine the efforts of your public health experts, don't pit state against state in a race for resources.
I don't even consider Bush the younger to have been highly competent, but I don't doubt that he would have handled this better. If Trump's ego had left Mike Pence in charge of the COVID response, Pence probably would have handled it better.
Bush the younger was responsible for the ability of the federal government to respond at all -- he is the one who personally forced the feds to prepare for pandemics and got things set up to do it. Obama took a damned good idea and improved on it. Trump tossed it in the trash and dismantled a great deal of it before the pandemic hit. And then that SOB knowingly did damn near everything wrong after that.
Thanks. Yes, Bush absolutely got that right. Hopefully we're back on course now.
Post by: GuitarStv on April 15, 2021, 02:17:34 PM
*I also believe that having a Democrat as President would have also meant would could have contained COVID with testing/tracing as we did with the swine flu in 2009.
Any competent president (Republican or Democrat) would have done a far better job on Covid. The bar really wouldn't be all that high - don't lie constantly about the state of things, don't undermine the efforts of your public health experts, don't pit state against state in a race for resources.
I don't even consider Bush the younger to have been highly competent, but I don't doubt that he would have handled this better. If Trump's ego had left Mike Pence in charge of the COVID response, Pence probably would have handled it better.
Bush the younger was responsible for the ability of the federal government to respond at all -- he is the one who personally forced the feds to prepare for pandemics and got things set up to do it. Obama took a damned good idea and improved on it. Trump tossed it in the trash and dismantled a great deal of it before the pandemic hit. And then that SOB knowingly did damn near everything wrong after that.
Thanks. Yes, Bush absolutely got that right. Hopefully we're back on course now.
Not a fan at all of Bush's, but credit where it's due. He did the right thing in setting up pandemic preparation.
Post by: SwordGuy on April 15, 2021, 02:32:19 PM
*I also believe that having a Democrat as President would have also meant would could have contained COVID with testing/tracing as we did with the swine flu in 2009.
Any competent president (Republican or Democrat) would have done a far better job on Covid. The bar really wouldn't be all that high - don't lie constantly about the state of things, don't undermine the efforts of your public health experts, don't pit state against state in a race for resources.
I don't even consider Bush the younger to have been highly competent, but I don't doubt that he would have handled this better. If Trump's ego had left Mike Pence in charge of the COVID response, Pence probably would have handled it better.
Bush the younger was responsible for the ability of the federal government to respond at all -- he is the one who personally forced the feds to prepare for pandemics and got things set up to do it. Obama took a damned good idea and improved on it. Trump tossed it in the trash and dismantled a great deal of it before the pandemic hit. And then that SOB knowingly did damn near everything wrong after that.
Thanks. Yes, Bush absolutely got that right. Hopefully we're back on course now.
Not a fan at all of Bush's, but credit where it's due. He did the right thing in setting up pandemic preparation.
Me either, but by God his heart was in the right place. If we could have just kept Cheney and his ilk from having his ear he would have done much better.
Post by: OtherJen on April 15, 2021, 02:39:18 PM
*I also believe that having a Democrat as President would have also meant would could have contained COVID with testing/tracing as we did with the swine flu in 2009.
Any competent president (Republican or Democrat) would have done a far better job on Covid. The bar really wouldn't be all that high - don't lie constantly about the state of things, don't undermine the efforts of your public health experts, don't pit state against state in a race for resources.
I don't even consider Bush the younger to have been highly competent, but I don't doubt that he would have handled this better. If Trump's ego had left Mike Pence in charge of the COVID response, Pence probably would have handled it better.
Bush the younger was responsible for the ability of the federal government to respond at all -- he is the one who personally forced the feds to prepare for pandemics and got things set up to do it. Obama took a damned good idea and improved on it. Trump tossed it in the trash and dismantled a great deal of it before the pandemic hit. And then that SOB knowingly did damn near everything wrong after that.
Thanks. Yes, Bush absolutely got that right. Hopefully we're back on course now.
Not a fan at all of Bush's, but credit where it's due. He did the right thing in setting up pandemic preparation.
Me either, but by God his heart was in the right place. If we could have just kept Cheney and his ilk from having his ear he would have done much better.
He seems like a decent human. I don't think he was strong enough to be president. Cheney was in control of that administration.
Post by: talltexan on April 15, 2021, 02:48:28 PM
Presidents have broad power, but they are constrained by popular opinion, paying a political cost for nearly every action. Bush was given a very unusual gift of nearly limitless mandate following the 2001 terror attacks, and his first term was not marred by the usual rebuke that voters give a President by electing the opposing party to control Congress during mid-terms. After Democrats swept Congress in Nov. 2006, Bush was basically impotent, and Cheney along with him.
Post by: SwordGuy on April 15, 2021, 03:49:34 PM
Why is this Cheney-thing something that people believe?
Bush had a mandate and Cheney strongly guided his use of that mandate. That's how we ended up in Iraq for no good reason.
Post by: wenchsenior on April 15, 2021, 03:52:24 PM
Why is this Cheney-thing something that people believe?
Presidents have broad power, but they are constrained by popular opinion, paying a political cost for nearly every action. Bush was given a very unusual gift of nearly limitless mandate following the 2001 terror attacks, and his first term was not marred by the usual rebuke that voters give a President by electing the opposing party to control Congress during mid-terms. After Democrats swept Congress in Nov. 2006, Bush was basically impotent, and Cheney along with him.
People want to believe Bush Jr was stupid, and being controlled, but the truth appears a LOT more complicated. Just like people want to believe there was a simple corrupt reason we went into Iraq (e.g., so Halliburton could get access to oil), but the truth was a lot more complicated. Cheney was mostly out of favor and out of power during Bush's second term. He had a lot of influence in the first term, and he probably knew how to push W's buttons, but he wasn't in as much control as people seem to want to believe.
Post by: wenchsenior on April 15, 2021, 04:00:16 PM
Why is this Cheney-thing something that people believe?
Bush had a mandate and Cheney strongly guided his use of that mandate. That's how we ended up in Iraq for no good reason.
Yeah, that's kind of my read of it, but it wasn't so much Cheney himself who was obsessed with Iraq: Cheney's driving philosophy was belief in executive power and that Congress was mostly an impediment to effective action. That meant that he tended to support every big sweeping executive action that Bush showed inclination toward...some that he was personally in favor of, some not. Bush was to a great extent surrounded by an echo chamber when it came to activist executive power and especially exercise of military power. Bush had an independent interest in going into Iraq, as did Wolfowitz (different interest) and Rumsfeld (yet a different interest). Whereas, Cheney had been wary of interventionist military use since the first Gulf War, but he was super committed to exercise of executive power, so he ended up supporting the invasion as well. I think the oil that his old firm might get access to during the Iraq invasion was just a side bonus for him, not a motivator to push for invasion (which I hear people on the left say all the time).
Post by: talltexan on April 19, 2021, 06:33:22 AM
Why is this Cheney-thing something that people believe?
Presidents have broad power, but they are constrained by popular opinion, paying a political cost for nearly every action. Bush was given a very unusual gift of nearly limitless mandate following the 2001 terror attacks, and his first term was not marred by the usual rebuke that voters give a President by electing the opposing party to control Congress during mid-terms. After Democrats swept Congress in Nov. 2006, Bush was basically impotent, and Cheney along with him.
CheneyBush was mostly out of favor and out of power during Bush's second term.
Post by: wenchsenior on April 19, 2021, 09:26:54 AM
Why is this Cheney-thing something that people believe?
Presidents have broad power, but they are constrained by popular opinion, paying a political cost for nearly every action. Bush was given a very unusual gift of nearly limitless mandate following the 2001 terror attacks, and his first term was not marred by the usual rebuke that voters give a President by electing the opposing party to control Congress during mid-terms. After Democrats swept Congress in Nov. 2006, Bush was basically impotent, and Cheney along with him.
CheneyBush was mostly out of favor and out of power during Bush's second term.
Yes, that's true. I wasn't clear. I meant Cheney was out of power and out of favor with the rest of the Bush administration and Bush himself, during Bush's second term. His influence had waned hugely within the government. I wasn't referring to support of the voters (the entire admin had lost a great deal of support during the second term).
Post by: Just Joe on April 22, 2021, 03:32:03 PM
Wondering if their perception of everything is just simplistic or if they really are (in private) someone who can not stomach all these people and ideas who are different from them.
And of course - perhaps to them it is just idle cheerleading for their beloved America without a thought to the real consequences of the words they seem to support.
Do they really want the "others" to be second class citizens?
At this point I believe they would do the mental gymnastics to return to the 1950s with all those consequences for non-white, non-male, non-straight peoples...
I love these people but will not be sad for their narrow minded opinions to go silent someday.
Post by: talltexan on April 23, 2021, 06:14:25 AM
Post by: former player on April 23, 2021, 06:37:06 AM
I do think many people have a "memory filter" in which they tend to keep and maintain the good memories of the past--"Being able to drive a truck with a gun rack to school"--while discarding the bad ones, like "married women not being able to apply for a credit card until 1982".For many people those are not even "bad memories, probably because they weren't on the wrong end of them".
Post by: LaineyAZ on April 23, 2021, 08:16:51 AM
I'm old enough to remember when that same thing was said after Nixon was elected president. Progressive people were appalled but comforted themselves with the thought that "when these older people die" then social progress could be made. (of course today Nixon would be considered a moderate Democrat).
Unfortunately, the market dominance of Sinclair Broadcast Corp. and the algorithms of internet searching has allowed many to grow up in their own information bubble, undisturbed by facts or even others' opinions. Look at the video of the mob at the Capitol on January 6: most were in their 20s to 50s.
I'm honestly more pessimistic than ever because I don't see a way out of this and the schism in our country seems to be getting worse.
Post by: CodingHare on April 23, 2021, 09:25:02 AM
And for every kid like me that was raised on science textbooks that showed the garden of Eden with dinosaurs in it and rejected that worldview, there are still others who never escape. The ones that were homeschooled/private schooled and sent to Bob Jones University or Liberty or PCC. The ones who are informed that any disagreement with their elders is a one way ticket to homelessness. The ones that never question and just have zero exposure to minorities--what's the big deal? Why should they get "extra"?
Plus there are a lot of pipelines on the internet now to radicalize even people from regular backgrounds. Misinformation is a huge threat. Human brains are just not good at sorting fact from fiction. I'm not entirely optimistic either, @LaineyAZ .
Post by: frugalnacho on April 23, 2021, 12:46:01 PM
He prepped not only for civil war type stuff, but also meteor strikes and other natural disasters. (I should also note that he was very financially savvy, he got his financial situation in order first as that had a higher probability than a meteor strike being the end)
At least Australia will be safe in that regard. Everyone knows asteroids only strike the North East Coast of the US (thanks Hollywood!)
Asteroids fall from up in space, so obviously they will hit the top of the globe and not the bottom where Australia is. Some people just ain't too good at thinking, SMH.
Post by: bwall on April 23, 2021, 04:18:46 PM
100%. Internet discourse and the specific area you live in are bubbles. And conservatives are perfectly aware that they've lost the secular discourse. They've been focusing on pumping out babies for Jesus since Reagan.
Recovering evangelical here. The one thing that I can say for sure is that the babies that are pumped out eventually grow up and ...... have to decide for themselves. Nothing quite like have religion force fed to make one.....not want religion.
I've met perhaps three ex-missionaries personally and two of them are now atheists.
I had a strange conversation with a college friend who became a pastor who guaranteed me 100% that there were atheists at his church. I wondered how he could be soooooooo sure.... years later I suspect it's because he was one.
And, in closing, with all heads bowed and all eyes closed, in the immortal words of Mohammed Ali "A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life."
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on April 24, 2021, 01:30:15 PM
100%. Internet discourse and the specific area you live in are bubbles. And conservatives are perfectly aware that they've lost the secular discourse. They've been focusing on pumping out babies for Jesus since Reagan.
And for every kid like me that was raised on science textbooks that showed the garden of Eden with dinosaurs in it and rejected that worldview, there are still others who never escape. The ones that were homeschooled/private schooled and sent to Bob Jones University or Liberty or PCC. The ones who are informed that any disagreement with their elders is a one way ticket to homelessness. The ones that never question and just have zero exposure to minorities--what's the big deal? Why should they get "extra"?
Plus there are a lot of pipelines on the internet now to radicalize even people from regular backgrounds. Misinformation is a huge threat. Human brains are just not good at sorting fact from fiction. I'm not entirely optimistic either, @LaineyAZ .
Bob Jones is in my city. I should live somewhere that isn't here one day... Maybe the people will be more like minded.
OP - here btw with the fake news parents. As an update it hasn't gotten any better for myself and I'm sure many others.
My parents believe there is going to be a 2nd trump inauguration this year.
I followed my sister's approach and went along the lines of
"If you can't find something else to talk about, we won't be associating any more"
It's wild, any conversation steers back to a wild ass fake news rant. It's obsessive at this point. What do lasagna and BLM have to do with each other? *Shrug* but boom off goes the rant. How bout birthday cake and Hillary clinton? *Shrug again*
I wish everyone the best but ultimately I'm just cutting them out. It's sad but it's a huge drain on me otherwise.
Post by: jeninco on April 24, 2021, 04:31:19 PM
Also, now I want lasagne and birthday cake. (I probably have time this afternoon to bake a cake...)
Seriously, I'm really sorry. What's happening really, genuinely sucks.
Post by: iris lily on April 25, 2021, 08:57:13 AM
That they happen to be talking about things that you disagree with is a secondary nature.
Yes you will have to establish boundaries about what they talk about in your presence.
Post by: talltexan on April 26, 2021, 06:12:18 AM
My Father-in-Law spent more than a year obsessing about COVID, checking data daily on a set of a half-dozen areas around the country (chosen because of family living there). I tried to pin him down with the question: "If a Democrat had been President in 2019-2020, would fewer people have died of COVID?", but--despite a willingness to admit Trump's incompetence--he just couldn't seem to bring himself to answer yes.
Post by: marty998 on April 28, 2021, 04:26:08 AM
100%. Internet discourse and the specific area you live in are bubbles. And conservatives are perfectly aware that they've lost the secular discourse. They've been focusing on pumping out babies for Jesus since Reagan.
And for every kid like me that was raised on science textbooks that showed the garden of Eden with dinosaurs in it and rejected that worldview, there are still others who never escape. The ones that were homeschooled/private schooled and sent to Bob Jones University or Liberty or PCC. The ones who are informed that any disagreement with their elders is a one way ticket to homelessness. The ones that never question and just have zero exposure to minorities--what's the big deal? Why should they get "extra"?
Plus there are a lot of pipelines on the internet now to radicalize even people from regular backgrounds. Misinformation is a huge threat. Human brains are just not good at sorting fact from fiction. I'm not entirely optimistic either, @LaineyAZ .
Bob Jones is in my city. I should live somewhere that isn't here one day... Maybe the people will be more like minded.
OP - here btw with the fake news parents. As an update it hasn't gotten any better for myself and I'm sure many others.
My parents believe there is going to be a 2nd trump inauguration this year.
I followed my sister's approach and went along the lines of
"If you can't find something else to talk about, we won't be associating any more"
It's wild, any conversation steers back to a wild ass fake news rant. It's obsessive at this point. What do lasagna and BLM have to do with each other? *Shrug* but boom off goes the rant. How bout birthday cake and Hillary clinton? *Shrug again*
I wish everyone the best but ultimately I'm just cutting them out. It's sad but it's a huge drain on me otherwise.
Ah those three little letters. BLM. Now I have people close to me who think BLM is a marxist cult that ruins small businesses with all their rioting, and family members of victims of police brutality are playing it up and getting rich and living in mansions on donations.
Apparently the jury in the Floyd case felt "pressured" by the "woke social justice warriors" into voting guilty otherwise there would be mass riots everywhere #blue lives matter.
I didn't know how to respond I was so shocked. Floyd may not have been a saint but he sure as shit didn't deserve to be executed in the street.
Post by: talltexan on April 28, 2021, 06:25:24 AM
Post by: OtherJen on April 28, 2021, 06:36:55 AM
100%. Internet discourse and the specific area you live in are bubbles. And conservatives are perfectly aware that they've lost the secular discourse. They've been focusing on pumping out babies for Jesus since Reagan.
And for every kid like me that was raised on science textbooks that showed the garden of Eden with dinosaurs in it and rejected that worldview, there are still others who never escape. The ones that were homeschooled/private schooled and sent to Bob Jones University or Liberty or PCC. The ones who are informed that any disagreement with their elders is a one way ticket to homelessness. The ones that never question and just have zero exposure to minorities--what's the big deal? Why should they get "extra"?
Plus there are a lot of pipelines on the internet now to radicalize even people from regular backgrounds. Misinformation is a huge threat. Human brains are just not good at sorting fact from fiction. I'm not entirely optimistic either, @LaineyAZ .
Bob Jones is in my city. I should live somewhere that isn't here one day... Maybe the people will be more like minded.
OP - here btw with the fake news parents. As an update it hasn't gotten any better for myself and I'm sure many others.
My parents believe there is going to be a 2nd trump inauguration this year.
I followed my sister's approach and went along the lines of
"If you can't find something else to talk about, we won't be associating any more"
It's wild, any conversation steers back to a wild ass fake news rant. It's obsessive at this point. What do lasagna and BLM have to do with each other? *Shrug* but boom off goes the rant. How bout birthday cake and Hillary clinton? *Shrug again*
I wish everyone the best but ultimately I'm just cutting them out. It's sad but it's a huge drain on me otherwise.
Ah those three little letters. BLM. Now I have people close to me who think BLM is a marxist cult that ruins small businesses with all their rioting, and family members of victims of police brutality are playing it up and getting rich and living in mansions on donations.
Apparently the jury in the Floyd case felt "pressured" by the "woke social justice warriors" into voting guilty otherwise there would be mass riots everywhere #blue lives matter.
I didn't know how to respond I was so shocked. Floyd may not have been a saint but he sure as shit didn't deserve to be executed in the street.
That is not an uncommon opinion in this country, unfortunately. It really underscores the power of brainwashing. The Fox/Qverse/50 years of evangelical bullshit has warped people’s capacity for morality and critical thought to the point that they can watch what was clearly a murder on video, ignore the evidence presented to them, and then claim that the victim deserved it and the defendant wasn’t given a fair trial.
Post by: SwordGuy on April 28, 2021, 06:49:31 AM
It really underscores the power of brainwashing. The Fox/Qverse/50 years of evangelical bullshit has warped people’s capacity for morality and critical thought to the point that they can watch what was clearly a murder on video, ignore the evidence presented to them, and then claim that the victim deserved it and the defendant wasn’t given a fair trial.
Not 50 years of evangelical bullshit. That would 176 years of evangelical bullshit. The Southern Baptist Church was founded in 1845 for the EXPRESS PURPOSE of supporting white supremacy and black enslavement. It runs deep.
Post by: frugalnacho on April 28, 2021, 07:21:21 AM
100%. Internet discourse and the specific area you live in are bubbles. And conservatives are perfectly aware that they've lost the secular discourse. They've been focusing on pumping out babies for Jesus since Reagan.
And for every kid like me that was raised on science textbooks that showed the garden of Eden with dinosaurs in it and rejected that worldview, there are still others who never escape. The ones that were homeschooled/private schooled and sent to Bob Jones University or Liberty or PCC. The ones who are informed that any disagreement with their elders is a one way ticket to homelessness. The ones that never question and just have zero exposure to minorities--what's the big deal? Why should they get "extra"?
Plus there are a lot of pipelines on the internet now to radicalize even people from regular backgrounds. Misinformation is a huge threat. Human brains are just not good at sorting fact from fiction. I'm not entirely optimistic either, @LaineyAZ .
Bob Jones is in my city. I should live somewhere that isn't here one day... Maybe the people will be more like minded.
OP - here btw with the fake news parents. As an update it hasn't gotten any better for myself and I'm sure many others.
My parents believe there is going to be a 2nd trump inauguration this year.
I followed my sister's approach and went along the lines of
"If you can't find something else to talk about, we won't be associating any more"
It's wild, any conversation steers back to a wild ass fake news rant. It's obsessive at this point. What do lasagna and BLM have to do with each other? *Shrug* but boom off goes the rant. How bout birthday cake and Hillary clinton? *Shrug again*
I wish everyone the best but ultimately I'm just cutting them out. It's sad but it's a huge drain on me otherwise.
Ah those three little letters. BLM. Now I have people close to me who think BLM is a marxist cult that ruins small businesses with all their rioting, and family members of victims of police brutality are playing it up and getting rich and living in mansions on donations.
Apparently the jury in the Floyd case felt "pressured" by the "woke social justice warriors" into voting guilty otherwise there would be mass riots everywhere #blue lives matter.
I didn't know how to respond I was so shocked. Floyd may not have been a saint but he sure as shit didn't deserve to be executed in the street.
That is not an uncommon opinion in this country, unfortunately. It really underscores the power of brainwashing. The Fox/Qverse/50 years of evangelical bullshit has warped people’s capacity for morality and critical thought to the point that they can watch what was clearly a murder on video, ignore the evidence presented to them, and then claim that the victim deserved it and the defendant wasn’t given a fair trial.
46% of republicans polled said the chauvin verdict was wrong. That's so insane. I fucking watched the entire video and saw him get killed with my own eyes. The video is available for anyone to watch. I can't even understand how you can deny something that you can witness with your own eyes. Absolute madness.
Post by: OtherJen on April 28, 2021, 07:35:45 AM
It really underscores the power of brainwashing. The Fox/Qverse/50 years of evangelical bullshit has warped people’s capacity for morality and critical thought to the point that they can watch what was clearly a murder on video, ignore the evidence presented to them, and then claim that the victim deserved it and the defendant wasn’t given a fair trial.
Not 50 years of evangelical bullshit. That would 176 years of evangelical bullshit. The Southern Baptist Church was founded in 1845 for the EXPRESS PURPOSE of supporting white supremacy and black enslavement. It runs deep.
I'm going back to the Goldwater era and the modern white evangelical/"moral majority" movement.
Post by: OtherJen on April 28, 2021, 07:38:38 AM
100%. Internet discourse and the specific area you live in are bubbles. And conservatives are perfectly aware that they've lost the secular discourse. They've been focusing on pumping out babies for Jesus since Reagan.
And for every kid like me that was raised on science textbooks that showed the garden of Eden with dinosaurs in it and rejected that worldview, there are still others who never escape. The ones that were homeschooled/private schooled and sent to Bob Jones University or Liberty or PCC. The ones who are informed that any disagreement with their elders is a one way ticket to homelessness. The ones that never question and just have zero exposure to minorities--what's the big deal? Why should they get "extra"?
Plus there are a lot of pipelines on the internet now to radicalize even people from regular backgrounds. Misinformation is a huge threat. Human brains are just not good at sorting fact from fiction. I'm not entirely optimistic either, @LaineyAZ .
Bob Jones is in my city. I should live somewhere that isn't here one day... Maybe the people will be more like minded.
OP - here btw with the fake news parents. As an update it hasn't gotten any better for myself and I'm sure many others.
My parents believe there is going to be a 2nd trump inauguration this year.
I followed my sister's approach and went along the lines of
"If you can't find something else to talk about, we won't be associating any more"
It's wild, any conversation steers back to a wild ass fake news rant. It's obsessive at this point. What do lasagna and BLM have to do with each other? *Shrug* but boom off goes the rant. How bout birthday cake and Hillary clinton? *Shrug again*
I wish everyone the best but ultimately I'm just cutting them out. It's sad but it's a huge drain on me otherwise.
Ah those three little letters. BLM. Now I have people close to me who think BLM is a marxist cult that ruins small businesses with all their rioting, and family members of victims of police brutality are playing it up and getting rich and living in mansions on donations.
Apparently the jury in the Floyd case felt "pressured" by the "woke social justice warriors" into voting guilty otherwise there would be mass riots everywhere #blue lives matter.
I didn't know how to respond I was so shocked. Floyd may not have been a saint but he sure as shit didn't deserve to be executed in the street.
That is not an uncommon opinion in this country, unfortunately. It really underscores the power of brainwashing. The Fox/Qverse/50 years of evangelical bullshit has warped people’s capacity for morality and critical thought to the point that they can watch what was clearly a murder on video, ignore the evidence presented to them, and then claim that the victim deserved it and the defendant wasn’t given a fair trial.
46% of republicans polled said the chauvin verdict was wrong. That's so insane. I fucking watched the entire video and saw him get killed with my own eyes. The video is available for anyone to watch. I can't even understand how you can deny something that you can witness with your own eyes. Absolute madness.
It's classic brainwashing. Denying evidence perceived using your own senses is a classic trait of people indoctrinated into cults (including cult-like religions). You're specifically taught not to trust yourself and to accept everything presented by the cult leaders (in this case, Tucker Carlson and the loudest GQP voices) as infallible.
It's fucking terrifying, given that the results of last year's early-terminated pandemic census have given more power to red states at the expense of blue states.
Post by: talltexan on April 28, 2021, 09:35:24 AM
100%. Internet discourse and the specific area you live in are bubbles. And conservatives are perfectly aware that they've lost the secular discourse. They've been focusing on pumping out babies for Jesus since Reagan.
And for every kid like me that was raised on science textbooks that showed the garden of Eden with dinosaurs in it and rejected that worldview, there are still others who never escape. The ones that were homeschooled/private schooled and sent to Bob Jones University or Liberty or PCC. The ones who are informed that any disagreement with their elders is a one way ticket to homelessness. The ones that never question and just have zero exposure to minorities--what's the big deal? Why should they get "extra"?
Plus there are a lot of pipelines on the internet now to radicalize even people from regular backgrounds. Misinformation is a huge threat. Human brains are just not good at sorting fact from fiction. I'm not entirely optimistic either, @LaineyAZ .
Bob Jones is in my city. I should live somewhere that isn't here one day... Maybe the people will be more like minded.
OP - here btw with the fake news parents. As an update it hasn't gotten any better for myself and I'm sure many others.
My parents believe there is going to be a 2nd trump inauguration this year.
I followed my sister's approach and went along the lines of
"If you can't find something else to talk about, we won't be associating any more"
It's wild, any conversation steers back to a wild ass fake news rant. It's obsessive at this point. What do lasagna and BLM have to do with each other? *Shrug* but boom off goes the rant. How bout birthday cake and Hillary clinton? *Shrug again*
I wish everyone the best but ultimately I'm just cutting them out. It's sad but it's a huge drain on me otherwise.
Ah those three little letters. BLM. Now I have people close to me who think BLM is a marxist cult that ruins small businesses with all their rioting, and family members of victims of police brutality are playing it up and getting rich and living in mansions on donations.
Apparently the jury in the Floyd case felt "pressured" by the "woke social justice warriors" into voting guilty otherwise there would be mass riots everywhere #blue lives matter.
I didn't know how to respond I was so shocked. Floyd may not have been a saint but he sure as shit didn't deserve to be executed in the street.
That is not an uncommon opinion in this country, unfortunately. It really underscores the power of brainwashing. The Fox/Qverse/50 years of evangelical bullshit has warped people’s capacity for morality and critical thought to the point that they can watch what was clearly a murder on video, ignore the evidence presented to them, and then claim that the victim deserved it and the defendant wasn’t given a fair trial.
46% of republicans polled said the chauvin verdict was wrong. That's so insane. I fucking watched the entire video and saw him get killed with my own eyes. The video is available for anyone to watch. I can't even understand how you can deny something that you can witness with your own eyes. Absolute madness.
Isn't another way of thinking about this that more than half of "Republicans"--a group who are now only the most committed partisans--think the verdict was correct? It seems like a victory for bipartisanship at at time when there are few of those.
Post by: SwordGuy on April 28, 2021, 09:43:58 AM
46% of republicans polled said the chauvin verdict was wrong. That's so insane. I fucking watched the entire video and saw him get killed with my own eyes. The video is available for anyone to watch. I can't even understand how you can deny something that you can witness with your own eyes. Absolute madness.
Isn't another way of thinking about this that more than half of "Republicans"--a group who are now only the most committed partisans--think the verdict was correct? It seems like a victory for bipartisanship at at time when there are few of those.
[/quote]
46% of republicans works out to about 24% of the electorate. Which, incidentally, is about the 24% of the electorate that Hillary Clinton referred to as "the Deplorables".
Looks like she nailed it.
Post by: GuitarStv on April 28, 2021, 09:50:14 AM
46% of republicans polled said the chauvin verdict was wrong. That's so insane. I fucking watched the entire video and saw him get killed with my own eyes. The video is available for anyone to watch. I can't even understand how you can deny something that you can witness with your own eyes. Absolute madness.
Isn't another way of thinking about this that more than half of "Republicans"--a group who are now only the most committed partisans--think the verdict was correct? It seems like a victory for bipartisanship at at time when there are few of those.
46% of republicans works out to about 24% of the electorate. Which, incidentally, is about the 24% of the electorate that Hillary Clinton referred to as "the Deplorables".
Looks like she nailed it.
[/quote]
You're not allowed to mention that. It makes you 'elite' and out of touch with 'real america'.
Post by: talltexan on April 28, 2021, 09:52:41 AM
I thought that whole "deplorables" thing was one of those odd times when the insult of an unpopular politician can be effectively worn as a badge of honor by the opposition. I was blown away by how many people around me literally seemed to want to be in a group that was being insulted by Hillary Clinton, even if the subtext was that the price of admission was possibly advancing the cause of White Nationalism. These opportunities for such attacks to backfire actually seem more frequent than one would expect. Perhaps the solution is to not insult people?
I'm seeing it in Texas politics now, with Speaker John Boehner having released a book that apparently says some bad things about Senator Ted Cruz, and the latter claiming those insults as an honor, because he's counting on the median voter in Texas liking Boehner even less than zHe likes Cruz.
Post by: Just Joe on April 28, 2021, 09:57:15 AM
I wish everyone the best but ultimately I'm just cutting them out. It's sad but it's a huge drain on me otherwise.
I worry the bad actors our country is dealing with right now is trying to fatigue us all so they can scurry around in the background doing very bad things.
Naturally it will be the little people who get hurt the most whether its onerous laws being passed or violence. Violence on any grand scale is unlikely but I won't count it out.
People who discriminate against others are closer to having what ti takes to be violent than someone who chooses to be a welcoming, community member to everyone.
I remain fascinated by the role of religion in all this. Wouldn't Jesus disapprove of all this hatefulness and violence?
Post by: SwordGuy on April 28, 2021, 10:06:31 AM
I remain fascinated by the role of religion in all this. Wouldn't Jesus disapprove of all this hatefulness and violence?
It doesn't take a rocket science to figure out that "Defend white supremacy and enslave black people" is in direct conflict with "love they neighbor".
And yet, the largest protestant denomination in this country was founded on exactly that first guideline. It ripples thru that denomination and its adherents today. Or should I say "tsunamis thru" instead of "ripples thru"?
Post by: frugalnacho on April 28, 2021, 10:09:12 AM
Post by: GuitarStv on April 28, 2021, 10:17:19 AM
Almost as if they're complete hypocrites with no actual principles.
It's not necessary hypocritical.
Ephesians 6:5-8 “Slaves, be obedient to your human masters with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ”
The bible (new and old testament) was pro-slavery. Black people weren't following the bible because they weren't being good slaves. Naturally some Christians who believed the words of the bible in the context they were written took issue with that.
Post by: SwordGuy on April 28, 2021, 10:55:31 AM
Almost as if they're complete hypocrites with no actual principles.
It's not necessary hypocritical.
Ephesians 6:5-8 “Slaves, be obedient to your human masters with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ”
The bible (new and old testament) was pro-slavery. Black people weren't following the bible because they weren't being good slaves. Naturally some Christians who believed the words of the bible in the context they were written took issue with that.
I actually had a Trumpite send me a list of Bible references to justify why slavery in the old South wasn't a bad thing. I was not nice in return. I was intentionally scathing in my reply.
Post by: ysette9 on April 28, 2021, 04:58:48 PM
That is so disgustingAlmost as if they're complete hypocrites with no actual principles.
It's not necessary hypocritical.
Ephesians 6:5-8 “Slaves, be obedient to your human masters with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ”
The bible (new and old testament) was pro-slavery. Black people weren't following the bible because they weren't being good slaves. Naturally some Christians who believed the words of the bible in the context they were written took issue with that.
I actually had a Trumpite send me a list of Bible references to justify why slavery in the old South wasn't a bad thing. I was not nice in return. I was intentionally scathing in my reply.
Post by: dignam on April 29, 2021, 07:33:03 AM
He has since become skeptical about anything Trump. I like to think I helped in that.
Post by: SwordGuy on April 29, 2021, 10:00:05 AM
One of my best friends was solidly on the Trump train leading up to the election. Some of the arguments he parroted were so out there. He'd send me links as "proof". I stopped trying to argue against the points being made because they were not grounded in reality. Instead, I pointed out how dubious his sources were.
He has since become skeptical about anything Trump. I like to think I helped in that.
OMG!! If that's true you should be registering for an amazing feat in the Guinness book of world records. Not many people can claim that. Those folks seem to be impervious to truth.
Post by: frugalnacho on April 29, 2021, 10:34:06 AM
One of my best friends was solidly on the Trump train leading up to the election. Some of the arguments he parroted were so out there. He'd send me links as "proof". I stopped trying to argue against the points being made because they were not grounded in reality. Instead, I pointed out how dubious his sources were.
He has since become skeptical about anything Trump. I like to think I helped in that.
OMG!! If that's true you should be registering for an amazing feat in the Guinness book of world records. Not many people can claim that. Those folks seem to be impervious to truth.
Well yeah, that's a prerequisite for being a rapid Trumper in the first place. If they listened to logical, rational arguments and truth they never would have boarded that Trump train.
Post by: Apples on April 29, 2021, 11:02:06 AM
One of my best friends was solidly on the Trump train leading up to the election. Some of the arguments he parroted were so out there. He'd send me links as "proof". I stopped trying to argue against the points being made because they were not grounded in reality. Instead, I pointed out how dubious his sources were.
He has since become skeptical about anything Trump. I like to think I helped in that.
This backfired for me. The dubious sources are the only place to find the real news, as the MSM (main stream media) won't write about xyz thing!!!!111!!1! So of course this information won't be found on those lying liberal news sources, and even Fox is going that way! They're all corrupt.
So. Not sure how to argue against that successfully.
Post by: Just Joe on April 29, 2021, 11:16:17 AM
One of my best friends was solidly on the Trump train leading up to the election. Some of the arguments he parroted were so out there. He'd send me links as "proof". I stopped trying to argue against the points being made because they were not grounded in reality. Instead, I pointed out how dubious his sources were.
He has since become skeptical about anything Trump. I like to think I helped in that.
This backfired for me. The dubious sources are the only place to find the real news, as the MSM (main stream media) won't write about xyz thing!!!!111!!1! So of course this information won't be found on those lying liberal news sources, and even Fox is going that way! They're all corrupt.
So. Not sure how to argue against that successfully.
You left out socialist, libtard, leftist, and several other popular pejoratives... We're visiting our Trumper relatives soon. Ugh. Love the people, dread the small talk. Fear it will drift into current events.
Post by: talltexan on April 29, 2021, 11:50:43 AM
I wish everyone the best but ultimately I'm just cutting them out. It's sad but it's a huge drain on me otherwise.
I worry the bad actors our country is dealing with right now is trying to fatigue us all so they can scurry around in the background doing very bad things.
Naturally it will be the little people who get hurt the most whether its onerous laws being passed or violence. Violence on any grand scale is unlikely but I won't count it out.
People who discriminate against others are closer to having what ti takes to be violent than someone who chooses to be a welcoming, community member to everyone.
I remain fascinated by the role of religion in all this. Wouldn't Jesus disapprove of all this hatefulness and violence?
This was also the strategy while Trump was in power. It's less exhausting when the people who are doing it do not have the Constitutional authority.
Post by: dignam on April 30, 2021, 06:20:00 AM
One of my best friends was solidly on the Trump train leading up to the election. Some of the arguments he parroted were so out there. He'd send me links as "proof". I stopped trying to argue against the points being made because they were not grounded in reality. Instead, I pointed out how dubious his sources were.
He has since become skeptical about anything Trump. I like to think I helped in that.
OMG!! If that's true you should be registering for an amazing feat in the Guinness book of world records. Not many people can claim that. Those folks seem to be impervious to truth.
We have a mutual friend that also helped steer him to at least think critically about what he's reading. It helps that he doesn't have a huge ego and was just lead astray by Trumpism. All three of us grew up in right-leaning households, so I suppose it really made him stop and think about why mutual friend and I are so against Trump, and the current Trump political movement.
Post by: LaineyAZ on April 30, 2021, 08:07:21 AM
One of my best friends was solidly on the Trump train leading up to the election. Some of the arguments he parroted were so out there. He'd send me links as "proof". I stopped trying to argue against the points being made because they were not grounded in reality. Instead, I pointed out how dubious his sources were.
He has since become skeptical about anything Trump. I like to think I helped in that.
OMG!! If that's true you should be registering for an amazing feat in the Guinness book of world records. Not many people can claim that. Those folks seem to be impervious to truth.
We have a mutual friend that also helped steer him to at least think critically about what he's reading. It helps that he doesn't have a huge ego and was just lead astray by Trumpism. All three of us grew up in right-leaning households, so I suppose it really made him stop and think about why mutual friend and I are so against Trump, and the current Trump political movement.
Maybe that's the key: you are peers that he respects.
Reminds me of the same tactic used in getting skeptical people to get vaccinated. The state of New Mexico has had very good compliance, and their health director said one of the things they did was to convince, e.g., evangelical pastors who would then convince their church members to get the vaccine. Repeat with other leaders in other areas.
Post by: talltexan on April 30, 2021, 08:17:28 AM
Man, I've been in touch with several people who feel that same way. I remember when I felt really outraged by the liberals who were trying to tax my investment income that I felt I was earning honestly, and I just knew that if even one Far Left winger were to ever become President, the stock market would instantly collapse as all of the sensible investors moved their money into Alibaba. But I found--when I opened up my quarterly statement at the start of this month--that the value of my investments seems to still be high, despite the outrageous proposals that the Biden administration is proposing, so maybe things'll be okay.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on June 05, 2021, 07:25:57 AM
Also still super convinced the pizza gate situation and adreno gland eating (or whatever) is real and must be stopped.
The math / logic supporting it is sad. - "All these children are reported missing every year and not resurfacing, so the democrats are eating them, its the only logical conclusion." - No really, this is the sound logic.
From my own perspective:
I don't get sad or think less of them for thinking Jesus is coming back any day now even though its been 2000 years already....
I guess I'll have to put Trump and all this political non sense in the same category. - However its super hard not to lose respect for someone when (in my opinion I suppose) they cant preform basic critical thinking.
Post by: ixtap on June 05, 2021, 07:34:12 AM
Post by: Greystache on June 05, 2021, 08:16:26 AM
Post by: sonofsven on June 05, 2021, 09:07:28 AM
This is our first trip out in over a year. I saw my mother once in the last year.
I was dumbfounded to learn her mother, who is a Trump supporter and watches Fox, has not gotten the vaccine!
She is a competent, independent woman who I like on a personal level. I asked my partner if her mom was ever anti vax before and the answer was no, she always had her and her brother vaxed with every appropriate and recommended vaccine and mom herself has always gotten the flu shot and whatever other vaccine her doctor recommended, except for this one.
She refused to discuss her reasons so my partner just dropped it.
I hate to think she's making health decisions based on virtue signalling politics, but that is a fairly obvious conclusion.
Post by: SwordGuy on June 05, 2021, 09:32:12 AM
I simply don't care anymore if they die from it. They and their ilk have just worn me out with one stupidity after another for the last 5 years and the emotional well of caring is bone dry.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on June 05, 2021, 09:43:39 AM
Honestly, I've just plain run out of caring when it comes to people who have refused to believe Covid is real and who have refused to take the appropriate medical precautions and who have refused to get vaccinated.
I simply don't care anymore if they die from it. They and their ilk have just worn me out with one stupidity after another for the last 5 years and the emotional well of caring is bone dry.
I know - and with universal health care (Canada) it is my tax dollars (and theirs) that will be spent on their medical care. But fine, get sick. Watch your friends get sick. Some of you will get really sick, or be long haulers. People used to understand that some diseases left long term adverse effects (scarlet fever and polio being 2 of the obvious ones) but we seem to have lost that wisdom.
My sister told me last night that she is amazed and so unhappy with friends and acquaintances that are not getting vaccinated for vague reasons. It is selfish, if they don't care about themselves then care about others that you may give the disease to. I run in a more liberal crowd than she does, so I am not seeing it as much, but it is out there.
Of course the population ecologist side of me, that I try to suppress when it comes to people versus other organisms, just goes "natural selection, selecting for common sense and against stupidity, OK". Now that we have enough of a vaccine supply that most of us who want to be can be vaccinated, we won't be as affected by their choices.
Post by: SunnyDays on June 05, 2021, 10:56:46 AM
My immediate people are getting/have been vaccinated, but lots of people a little further out are not, because the vaccine is made from aborted fetuses, it's a scam, it's just the flu etc. I'm starting to go from not caring at all about them anymore to kind of hoping they get Covid and get really really ill, just to make the point. Not a good mentality, I know, but I'm just so fed up. We are in lockdown #3 and cases aren't coming down much and now there's talk of the the India/Delta virus flying under the radar and most people have yet to get their 2 vaccine and they just don't care. So why should I? Natural selection for sure.
Post by: Sibley on June 05, 2021, 11:40:40 AM
One big impact has been their exposure to the media sources has been decreased. It's not gone, but I don't have cable so they can't turn on Fox News. I also don't have a radio sitting in the dining room so they're not listening as much to the talk radio. They do get emails and a physical paper from Epoch Times. A key source of entertainment for them has been reading. They're making several trips to the library a week, and the books mom at least is checking out have more variety than in past. IE, she's also reading mysteries and not just romances. I'll take it.
Am also working on increasing social interaction for them. It's slow going, but we're making progress.
They're still driving me nuts, but most of it is that I have extra people and cats in my space and it's messing with my routines. I will live. Please cross your fingers the real estate market slows down so they can find a house and get out of my house.
Post by: Sandi_k on June 05, 2021, 11:52:27 AM
Honestly, I've just plain run out of caring when it comes to people who have refused to believe Covid is real and who have refused to take the appropriate medical precautions and who have refused to get vaccinated.
I simply don't care anymore if they die from it. They and their ilk have just worn me out with one stupidity after another for the last 5 years and the emotional well of caring is bone dry.
Exactly. My dark humor summary is: Well, I believe in science, so Natural Selection is a Thing. If they die, they did it to themselves.
Post by: Greystache on June 05, 2021, 01:51:05 PM
Post by: Imma on June 05, 2021, 02:26:27 PM
June Update - They are still waiting for Trumps return, any day now.
Also still super convinced the pizza gate situation and adreno gland eating (or whatever) is real and must be stopped.
The math / logic supporting it is sad. - "All these children are reported missing every year and not resurfacing, so the democrats are eating them, its the only logical conclusion." - No really, this is the sound logic.
From my own perspective:
I don't get sad or think less of them for thinking Jesus is coming back any day now even though its been 2000 years already....
I guess I'll have to put Trump and all this political non sense in the same category. - However its super hard not to lose respect for someone when (in my opinion I suppose) they cant preform basic critical thinking.
I'm so sorry for you. I think I've been out of the loop because I hadn't even heard that democrats eat kids.
A lot of our family members are very religious as well, and what makes the big difference for me is that Jesus from the gospels is actually a good guy. Even mosts atheist can agree about that. So whenever we get into discussions we can always refer back to Gospel Jesus and he's doing the right things. We may disagree about the church, but not about Jesus. I can't say that about Trump. Of course if you truly believe he's on a mission to save us all from baby-eating, child abusing democrats, then he's a good guy, but as a human being he still seems pretty flawed.
It's a scary thought that probably the most important person in the world right now is not the leader of a country or organization but an anonymous source on the internet that may not even be one single person.
Post by: OtherJen on June 05, 2021, 03:49:30 PM
Honestly, I've just plain run out of caring when it comes to people who have refused to believe Covid is real and who have refused to take the appropriate medical precautions and who have refused to get vaccinated.
I simply don't care anymore if they die from it. They and their ilk have just worn me out with one stupidity after another for the last 5 years and the emotional well of caring is bone dry.
I get it. I’m beyond sick of the childish whining and ridiculous selfishness. Compared with many so-called adults, my young niece and nephew and friends’ children (ages 4-8) have complained much less about mask mandates and school disruptions over the last year, and none of them are eligible yet for vaccination (and their parents will get them signed up ASAP). I do have sympathy for the medical workers who still have to deal with this bullshit after 15 months and 612K deaths (in my country).
Post by: Greystache on June 06, 2021, 01:32:29 PM
Post by: Plina on June 07, 2021, 05:01:20 AM
June Update - They are still waiting for Trumps return, any day now.
Also still super convinced the pizza gate situation and adreno gland eating (or whatever) is real and must be stopped.
The math / logic supporting it is sad. - "All these children are reported missing every year and not resurfacing, so the democrats are eating them, its the only logical conclusion." - No really, this is the sound logic.
From my own perspective:
I don't get sad or think less of them for thinking Jesus is coming back any day now even though its been 2000 years already....
I guess I'll have to put Trump and all this political non sense in the same category. - However its super hard not to lose respect for someone when (in my opinion I suppose) they cant preform basic critical thinking.
I read an interesting book called How to have impossible conversations. It has some exemples on how to make people question their opinions.
I can’t help to wonder were the democrats find the recipies to make dishes of children meat.
Post by: talltexan on June 07, 2021, 06:30:07 AM
Q-Anon: *Insert that photo of Leo DiCaprio pointing at that thing right there*
Post by: Just Joe on June 07, 2021, 08:43:11 AM
Honestly, I've just plain run out of caring when it comes to people who have refused to believe Covid is real and who have refused to take the appropriate medical precautions and who have refused to get vaccinated.
I simply don't care anymore if they die from it. They and their ilk have just worn me out with one stupidity after another for the last 5 years and the emotional well of caring is bone dry.
I get it. I’m beyond sick of the childish whining and ridiculous selfishness. Compared with many so-called adults, my young niece and nephew and friends’ children (ages 4-8) have complained much less about mask mandates and school disruptions over the last year, and none of them are eligible yet for vaccination (and their parents will get them signed up ASAP). I do have sympathy for the medical workers who still have to deal with this bullshit after 15 months and 612K deaths (in my country).
Isn't "self-responsibility" a big theme with the conservatives? As in we can't have safety nets because those people (those people other than conservatives) should have demonstrated self-responsibility and did A,B and C...
I'm at a place where if the anti-vaccine folks can't be brave and go get their shots like big boys and girls and they get sick - that's on them. When we were all waiting for vaccine availability, being extra cautious, wearing masks, staying home - I worried for us all. Not any more.
Let's make sure that anyone who wants their shots, has the opportunity to get them - provide transportation, child care, time off from work, etc. I'd like to see the government require people who can to get the damn shots.
Have the culture wars always been a thing? Are recent events (20 years) just exposing how widespread the problem is? Stupid I know, but I just never noticed until the rise of social media, conservative talk radio, Faux News, etc. I think DW and I were busy raising kids, working too much, renovating our houses, etc.
Post by: SwordGuy on June 07, 2021, 09:42:18 AM
Post by: GuitarStv on June 07, 2021, 09:44:57 AM
That rat-bastard Limbaugh started his version of the culture wars about 1988. Gingrich was doing the same thing in politics.
Rat-bastard Presidential Medal of Freedom holder. :P
Post by: SunnyDays on June 07, 2021, 10:29:42 AM
Honestly, I've just plain run out of caring when it comes to people who have refused to believe Covid is real and who have refused to take the appropriate medical precautions and who have refused to get vaccinated.
I simply don't care anymore if they die from it. They and their ilk have just worn me out with one stupidity after another for the last 5 years and the emotional well of caring is bone dry.
I get it. I’m beyond sick of the childish whining and ridiculous selfishness. Compared with many so-called adults, my young niece and nephew and friends’ children (ages 4-8) have complained much less about mask mandates and school disruptions over the last year, and none of them are eligible yet for vaccination (and their parents will get them signed up ASAP). I do have sympathy for the medical workers who still have to deal with this bullshit after 15 months and 612K deaths (in my country).
Isn't "self-responsibility" a big theme with the conservatives? As in we can't have safety nets because those people (those people other than conservatives) should have demonstrated self-responsibility and did A,B and C...
I'm at a place where if the anti-vaccine folks can't be brave and go get their shots like big boys and girls and they get sick - that's on them. When we were all waiting for vaccine availability, being extra cautious, wearing masks, staying home - I worried for us all. Not any more.
Let's make sure that anyone who wants their shots, has the opportunity to get them - provide transportation, child care, time off from work, etc. I'd like to see the government require people who can to get the damn shots.
I'm hoping for proof-of-vaccination requirements for a whole bunch of activities. So I can say to people who told me "If you're that worried about Covid, just stay home," when I complained about people flouting the health orders, "Well, I guess you'll just have to stay home."
Post by: frugalnacho on June 07, 2021, 10:36:16 AM
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on June 07, 2021, 11:18:36 AM
Maybe natural selection will start placing an emphasis on critical thinking 🤔.
Post by: CodingHare on June 07, 2021, 11:29:51 AM
I hope they don't get seriously sick, but I can't protect them from themselves. I can ensure SO and I aren't the vector that kills them, but I can't make them wear masks or get vaccinated.
Post by: SwordGuy on June 07, 2021, 11:46:33 AM
That rat-bastard Limbaugh started his version of the culture wars about 1988. Gingrich was doing the same thing in politics.
Rat-bastard Presidential Medal of Freedom holder. :P
Yep, from an orange turd who should be in prison for treason right now.
Post by: Tyler durden on June 07, 2021, 11:54:10 AM
If you're worried about proof-of-vaccination requirements by a private company, just stay home. Simple.
Have any kids under 12 or know anyone who does? They can't be vaccinated. I dont like the approach of telling people to just stay home as it will catch people who can't be vaccinated.
here is a link to the CDC website that lists out people who cant/shouldnt be vaccinated
EDIT to add - previous link wasn't to the right part of CDC website. new link below
https://yalehealth.yale.edu/yale-covid-19-vaccine-program/who-should-and-shouldnt-get-covid-19-vaccine
Point being, not everyone can take it. At least not yet.
Post by: frugalnacho on June 07, 2021, 12:29:49 PM
If you're worried about proof-of-vaccination requirements by a private company, just stay home. Simple.
Have any kids under 12 or know anyone who does? They can't be vaccinated. I dont like the approach of telling people to just stay home as it will catch people who can't be vaccinated.
here is a link to the CDC website that lists out people who cant/shouldnt be vaccinated
EDIT to add - previous link wasn't to the right part of CDC website. new link below
https://yalehealth.yale.edu/yale-covid-19-vaccine-program/who-should-and-shouldnt-get-covid-19-vaccine
Point being, not everyone can take it. At least not yet.
Yes I know I think you missed my point. The same people that bitched and lamented reasonable covid restrictions (ie wear a mask, social distance) were saying "if you don't want covid you can just stay home" are now bitching about private companies requiring proof of vaccination. I'm completely dismissing their argument that proof of vaccination is overreaching because they simply have the option to stay home and not patronize those companies. If they are afraid of having to show covid documentation then they can stay home while the rest of go on living our lives.
No place is requiring children to prove vaccination because children can't get vaccinated. Anyone else that legitimately can't get the vaccine for some reason has my sympathies and it sucks for them that a bunch of selfish assholes are causing them hardships.
Post by: Tyler durden on June 07, 2021, 12:45:22 PM
If you're worried about proof-of-vaccination requirements by a private company, just stay home. Simple.
Have any kids under 12 or know anyone who does? They can't be vaccinated. I dont like the approach of telling people to just stay home as it will catch people who can't be vaccinated.
here is a link to the CDC website that lists out people who cant/shouldnt be vaccinated
EDIT to add - previous link wasn't to the right part of CDC website. new link below
https://yalehealth.yale.edu/yale-covid-19-vaccine-program/who-should-and-shouldnt-get-covid-19-vaccine
Point being, not everyone can take it. At least not yet.
Yes I know I think you missed my point. The same people that bitched and lamented reasonable covid restrictions (ie wear a mask, social distance) were saying "if you don't want covid you can just stay home" are now bitching about private companies requiring proof of vaccination. I'm completely dismissing their argument that proof of vaccination is overreaching because they simply have the option to stay home and not patronize those companies. If they are afraid of having to show covid documentation then they can stay home while the rest of go on living our lives.
No place is requiring children to prove vaccination because children can't get vaccinated. Anyone else that legitimately can't get the vaccine for some reason has my sympathies and it sucks for them that a bunch of selfish assholes are causing them hardships.
I see what your saying. The tables have turned sort of thing.
I dont take much issue with private companies doing what they want to do. It seems we are in this weird phase now. I walk into the grocery store this weekend and the sign reads "masks optional for vaccinated persons". This seems absurd, as who is going to even know and who is going to enforce it ?
Just my hunch but even the proof of vaccine thing I would think would phase out soon. Seems like it would be to easy to fake, and some 16 year old kid at a retail store isn't going to care to enforce it.
Post by: frugalnacho on June 07, 2021, 01:03:43 PM
It also appears that mask mandates are just done. Some stores still have signs up requiring masks, but none of the places I have gone into actually enforce anything and a decent percentage of the clientele and employees aren't wearing masks. You can pretty much just go maskless now anywhere in michigan with no proof.
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on June 07, 2021, 01:28:37 PM
I have teenagers who are both double vaccinated. They are in the two week waiting period for effectiveness. I can definitely envision camps adding a "proof of vaccine or mask" requirement. They have to wear masks now for sports camps, games, practices, etc. Once they are vaccinated, providing proof of vaccination could allow them to play without a mask. It's no fun to play sports with masks, but they have done it all along to keep themselves & others safe.
Post by: SwordGuy on June 07, 2021, 02:12:05 PM
It also appears that mask mandates are just done.That was a given once the Republicans in the Arizona legislature made the stunning logical deduction that mask mandates obviously aren't needed because the CDC didn't mandate wearing masks during the AIDS epidemic.
Post by: GuitarStv on June 07, 2021, 02:14:34 PM
It also appears that mask mandates are just done.That was a given once the Republicans in the Arizona legislature made the stunning logical deduction that mask mandates obviously aren't needed because the CDC didn't mandate wearing masks during the AIDS epidemic.
Bold move on that play. Can't fault logic when it's not present.
Post by: Plina on June 07, 2021, 03:08:05 PM
It also appears that mask mandates are just done.That was a given once the Republicans in the Arizona legislature made the stunning logical deduction that mask mandates obviously aren't needed because the CDC didn't mandate wearing masks during the AIDS epidemic.
Bold move on that play. Can't fault logic when it's not present.
For a non-american it is kind of hard to imagine how people like that get elected. Ok, if you get one bad apple in the mix but several...
Some countries require proof of vaccination to let in tourists without a test. The EU are developing a vaccination passport that allows people to enter without test if they have the passport/proof of vaccination.
Post by: SwordGuy on June 07, 2021, 04:19:55 PM
It also appears that mask mandates are just done.That was a given once the Republicans in the Arizona legislature made the stunning logical deduction that mask mandates obviously aren't needed because the CDC didn't mandate wearing masks during the AIDS epidemic.
Bold move on that play. Can't fault logic when it's not present.
For a non-american it is kind of hard to imagine how people like that get elected. Ok, if you get one bad apple in the mix but several...
Some countries require proof of vaccination to let in tourists without a test. The EU are developing a vaccination passport that allows people to enter without test if they have the passport/proof of vaccination.
The Republican party is chock full of them nowadays. It's a sad change from the party I grew up in.
Here's another shining example of the kind of doofus beloved by party stalwarts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k4pMTsa1Kw&t=131s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k4pMTsa1Kw&t=131s)
And then there's Marjorie Taylor Greene, the Secret Jewish Space Lasers Are Starting the California Wildfires representative from NW Georgia...
Post by: SunnyDays on June 07, 2021, 06:17:20 PM
Post by: SwordGuy on June 07, 2021, 06:35:20 PM
Just saw a sign on a neighbour's lawn that says "Mask-Free Zone." And he's an educational assistant. I wonder if teachers will be required to get vaccinated, since under 12s can't (yet). Would you want your kid in close proximity all day long to someone who isn't vaccinated? And how strongly are some people anti-vaxxers? Enough to give up their jobs? I wonder ............
I don't want kids in the care of people that GD willfully ignorant, vaccinated or not!
Post by: Just Joe on June 08, 2021, 10:12:17 AM
That rat-bastard Limbaugh started his version of the culture wars about 1988. Gingrich was doing the same thing in politics.
Rat-bastard Presidential Medal of Freedom holder. :P
Yep, from an orange turd who should be in prison for treason right now.
I had a little happy moment when Limbaugh died. I'll do the same when Gingrich, Trump and whole list of hateful public figures finally leaves this world (hopefully through natural processes). What these people have done to our society has been terrible.
Post by: former player on June 08, 2021, 10:24:15 AM
Post by: nereo on June 08, 2021, 10:38:25 AM
I saw bits of Trump's speech in NC (accidentally, clicked on a link) and he seems more demented (medically, I mean, not just morally) than ever.It came across as very... subdued. The outrageous lies were no less outrageous - just his delivery and the crowd's reaction. It was like an aging rocker playing his greatest hits to a tepid audience for the 5,000th time, and ranting about "the man" in between sets despite.
Post by: talltexan on June 08, 2021, 11:03:15 AM
Post by: nereo on June 08, 2021, 11:31:42 AM
Post by: talltexan on June 08, 2021, 12:01:49 PM
Post by: bacchi on June 09, 2021, 09:51:59 AM
I've followed a very strict rule of not clicking on any link with "Trump" in the headline (exception: the excellent "Trump outrage of the Day" discussion over in Off-Topic. Our attention is what created him. Starving him of it is the only way to defeat him.
The AZ fraudit is pretty much ignored by the media. It's rarely even on the most visited MSM site (FoxNews).
Post by: nereo on June 09, 2021, 10:20:37 AM
I've followed a very strict rule of not clicking on any link with "Trump" in the headline (exception: the excellent "Trump outrage of the Day" discussion over in Off-Topic. Our attention is what created him. Starving him of it is the only way to defeat him.
The AZ fraudit is pretty much ignored by the media. It's rarely even on the most visited MSM site (FoxNews).
My unscientific observations are that a substantial majority of citizens don't even realize the AZ audit is still ongoing.
Post by: aetheldrea on June 11, 2021, 11:17:23 AM
My unscientific observations are that a substantial majority of citizens don't even realize the AZ audit is still ongoing.That’s probably a good thing. Odds are extremely slim that it will affect anyone outside of Arizona. They decided to waste a bunch of money to pay for some pointless exercise to mollify their Qanon base, end of story.
Post by: talltexan on June 11, 2021, 11:20:51 AM
It seems there are many powerful people within conservative politics who are trying to make it affect people outside of Arizona.
Post by: iris lily on June 11, 2021, 12:11:21 PM
I've followed a very strict rule of not clicking on any link with "Trump" in the headline (exception: the excellent "Trump outrage of the Day" discussion over in Off-Topic. Our attention is what created him. Starving him of it is the only way to defeat him.I think this is wise.
IRL we should all practice our clueless face and scrunch up our mouth and pull our eyebrows down while cocking our heads and say “what? Why are you bringing HIM up? What does he have to do with anything these days?”
Render him irrelevant.
Post by: SwordGuy on June 11, 2021, 12:14:15 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/06/10/trailer-arizona-model-republicans-trek-phoenix-planning-2020-election-audits-back-home/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/06/10/trailer-arizona-model-republicans-trek-phoenix-planning-2020-election-audits-back-home/)
It seems there are many powerful people within conservative politics who are trying to make it affect people outside of Arizona.
There are many powerful people within conservative politics who are traitors or who will not oppose traitors if it benefits them.
Some tried court-based coups except the courts have mostly exposed them for the sham lawsuits they are, but they haven't given up.
Some tried for an after-the-fact, smoke-filled-room style change of the vote tallies, i.e, just lying about it, but one conservative in the right job said no and revealed it happened.
Some tried for a mob-based coup except the mob, being die-hard Trump supporters, was too dumb to pull it off.
Some are actively calling for a military coup.
And that's a sad day for our country.
We need to vigorously investigate, indict, convict if guilty, impeach and remove if in office, execute if allowed by law and if not, sentence to the maximum possible consecutive terms in prison.
We didn't "just move on" when WWII was over. We investigated for war crimes and hung a bunch of the rat bastards we caught and imprisoned the rest.
We need to do the same here.
Post by: marty998 on June 13, 2021, 05:41:18 PM
My unscientific observations are that a substantial majority of citizens don't even realize the AZ audit is still ongoing.That’s probably a good thing. Odds are extremely slim that it will affect anyone outside of Arizona. They decided to waste a bunch of money to pay for some pointless exercise to mollify their Qanon base, end of story.
Will be quite funny if the audit results in a bigger winning margin for Biden.
Post by: fixie on June 14, 2021, 02:43:40 PM
Almost as if they're complete hypocrites with no actual principles.
It's not necessary hypocritical.
Ephesians 6:5-8 “Slaves, be obedient to your human masters with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ”
The bible (new and old testament) was pro-slavery. Black people weren't following the bible because they weren't being good slaves. Naturally some Christians who believed the words of the bible in the context they were written took issue with that.
I actually had a Trumpite send me a list of Bible references to justify why slavery in the old South wasn't a bad thing. I was not nice in return. I was intentionally scathing in my reply.
And the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
Post by: GuitarStv on June 14, 2021, 02:53:16 PM
Almost as if they're complete hypocrites with no actual principles.
It's not necessary hypocritical.
Ephesians 6:5-8 “Slaves, be obedient to your human masters with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ”
The bible (new and old testament) was pro-slavery. Black people weren't following the bible because they weren't being good slaves. Naturally some Christians who believed the words of the bible in the context they were written took issue with that.
I actually had a Trumpite send me a list of Bible references to justify why slavery in the old South wasn't a bad thing. I was not nice in return. I was intentionally scathing in my reply.
And the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
Anyone who has been convicted as a crime can be made a slave - at least as far as the constitution is concerned?
Post by: Kris on June 14, 2021, 03:03:10 PM
Almost as if they're complete hypocrites with no actual principles.
It's not necessary hypocritical.
Ephesians 6:5-8 “Slaves, be obedient to your human masters with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ”
The bible (new and old testament) was pro-slavery. Black people weren't following the bible because they weren't being good slaves. Naturally some Christians who believed the words of the bible in the context they were written took issue with that.
I actually had a Trumpite send me a list of Bible references to justify why slavery in the old South wasn't a bad thing. I was not nice in return. I was intentionally scathing in my reply.
And the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
Anyone who has been convicted as a crime can be made a slave - at least as far as the constitution is concerned?
Yep. Which explains a hell of a lot about the US prison system.
The movie Thirteenth is particularly illuminating on this subject.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film)
Post by: fixie on June 14, 2021, 03:03:31 PM
Almost as if they're complete hypocrites with no actual principles.
It's not necessary hypocritical.
Ephesians 6:5-8 “Slaves, be obedient to your human masters with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ”
The bible (new and old testament) was pro-slavery. Black people weren't following the bible because they weren't being good slaves. Naturally some Christians who believed the words of the bible in the context they were written took issue with that.
I actually had a Trumpite send me a list of Bible references to justify why slavery in the old South wasn't a bad thing. I was not nice in return. I was intentionally scathing in my reply.
And the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
Anyone who has been convicted as a crime can be made a slave - at least as far as the constitution is concerned?
I ain't saying it's right, but that is the text of the 13th Amendment, and we do have quite a robust carceral state that pays prisoners virtual "slave wages." And those workers are deprived of all sorts of rights. Now, it's not strictly chattel slavery, but there are many types of historical slavery...gradations, if you will.
Post by: Hula Hoop on June 15, 2021, 04:22:50 PM
Post by: gooki on June 15, 2021, 10:37:57 PM
2. Feed the beast and send them links to your articles.
3. After a month or two post an article with the title "Relatives Name" is a Baby Eater, or something similar but personal and distasteful.
4. Then make a big fucking deal about it on social media pretending it's true and being outraged, and how you can't believe someone in your family would do such a thing.
Post by: Hula Hoop on June 16, 2021, 02:21:06 AM
Post by: GuitarStv on June 16, 2021, 07:07:10 AM
1. Make your own fake news site that aligns with their beliefs.
2. Feed the beast and send them links to your articles.
3. After a month or two post an article with the title "Relatives Name" is a Baby Eater, or something similar but personal and distasteful.
4. Then make a big fucking deal about it on social media pretending it's true and being outraged, and how you can't believe someone in your family would do such a thing.
All that does is generate mistrust in the fake site you created. When Fox news had the temerity to not lie about who won the election in Arizona they didn't convert their viewers - just incurred their wrath and distrust, leading to more OAN viewers.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on June 16, 2021, 10:29:05 AM
I mean they just rapidly turned on everything they recently supported when it didn't fit the narrative.
Post by: aetheldrea on September 25, 2021, 04:32:37 PM
You nailed it. Please consult your crystal ball again and let us know when the top is in.My unscientific observations are that a substantial majority of citizens don't even realize the AZ audit is still ongoing.That’s probably a good thing. Odds are extremely slim that it will affect anyone outside of Arizona. They decided to waste a bunch of money to pay for some pointless exercise to mollify their Qanon base, end of story.
Will be quite funny if the audit results in a bigger winning margin for Biden.
Post by: bacchi on September 25, 2021, 05:39:56 PM
You nailed it. Please consult your crystal ball again and let us know when the top is in.My unscientific observations are that a substantial majority of citizens don't even realize the AZ audit is still ongoing.That’s probably a good thing. Odds are extremely slim that it will affect anyone outside of Arizona. They decided to waste a bunch of money to pay for some pointless exercise to mollify their Qanon base, end of story.
Will be quite funny if the audit results in a bigger winning margin for Biden.
I have to admit, @marty998 , I scoffed at that post of yours. It's freakin' Cyber Ninjas doing the audit -- how is it going to end up besides Trump squeaking out a win?
It's crazy how quick they turned on fox news, and Mike pence and the dirty republicans in the party that won't support the truth.... Etc etc.
I mean they just rapidly turned on everything they recently supported when it didn't fit the narrative.
Don't forget the Supreme Court, who are a bunch of cucks.
To tie these 2 posts together, Trump is declaring that the Arizona audit proves that he won.
Quote from: trump
Huge findings in Arizona! However, the Fake News Media is already trying to ‘call it’ again for Biden before actually looking at the facts — just like they did in November!
Post by: PeteD01 on September 25, 2021, 07:05:23 PM
45 is basically telling his followers that election management in this country is beyond repair.
Maybe you should tell your parents to boycott the coming elections as participation would just serve as support of the irredeemiably corrupt system.
Post by: marty998 on September 25, 2021, 09:45:43 PM
You nailed it. Please consult your crystal ball again and let us know when the top is in.My unscientific observations are that a substantial majority of citizens don't even realize the AZ audit is still ongoing.That’s probably a good thing. Odds are extremely slim that it will affect anyone outside of Arizona. They decided to waste a bunch of money to pay for some pointless exercise to mollify their Qanon base, end of story.
Will be quite funny if the audit results in a bigger winning margin for Biden.
I have to admit, @marty998 , I scoffed at that post of yours. It's freakin' Cyber Ninjas doing the audit -- how is it going to end up besides Trump squeaking out a win?It's crazy how quick they turned on fox news, and Mike pence and the dirty republicans in the party that won't support the truth.... Etc etc.
I mean they just rapidly turned on everything they recently supported when it didn't fit the narrative.
Don't forget the Supreme Court, who are a bunch of cucks.
To tie these 2 posts together, Trump is declaring that the Arizona audit proves that he won.Quote from: trumpHuge findings in Arizona! However, the Fake News Media is already trying to ‘call it’ again for Biden before actually looking at the facts — just like they did in November!
I took some risk off on Monday last week - when Evergrande rattled the markets. Didn't sell up everything, but enough to make me sleep a little better. Of course I missed the rebound gains over the last week, but that's the price you pay for conviction. You're never going to pick the exact top* and get back in at the exact bottom.
When every news organisation in the world is mentioning this is China's Lehman Brothers moment you stand up and take notice. The more I look at it, the more I see the house of cards is gonna come down** and of all places the best analysis I've seen of it is on r/wallstreetbets.
I am no expert obviously, and we will know in the next 30 days now that Evergrande is not honouring all obligations and is in a default grace period. The problems are still there, and are worse than they are last week. They don't just magically go away when you strike a deal with a small number of bondholders.... you'll never be able to raise debt again when you do that - your credibility in the markets is shot to pieces. Over the next month we find out who the remaining bond and bag holders are.
*Except for this one time I held shares in a small funds management company and my sell trade to exit was for that stock an absolute peak bubble stupidity price of $4.61 / share, all time high. Couldn't believe it when I saw it. Within a couple of years that company was basically liquidated and then taken over for less than a dollar.
** The markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent, especially when propped up by the CCP. What I find really incongruent is that we all know communism has failed everywhere and everytime in history, but somehow, a good portion of the world thinks China can still make it work. Perhaps the can has finally been kicked too far down the road and is teetering on the edge of the cliff...
Post by: wenchsenior on September 26, 2021, 08:33:32 AM
I´m watching the 45 rally in Georgia on and off.
45 is basically telling his followers that election management in this country is beyond repair.
Maybe you should tell your parents to boycott the coming elections as participation would just serve as support of the irredeemiably corrupt system.
Excellent. Hopefully Trump blasts this insanity 24/7 to his fans and demoralizes them so much they don't turn out in the mid-terms (which are otherwise likely to be a blowout against the Dems, given historical patterns).
Post by: nereo on September 26, 2021, 08:48:35 AM
We’ve got an aunt who’s gone deep down the rabbit-hole of OAN-style conspiracy theories. She’s a part-time health care professional and the great-aunt to our unvaccinated 3 year old and daughter to an 89 year old with failing health in hospice care.
She’s been notified by her employer that if she fails to get vaccinated by next week then she will be put on indefinitely leave without pay. We have similarly told her that we won’t allow her in our home unvaccinated and won’t meet with her anywhere indoors or unmasked outdoors. Hospice care forbid her from seeing her own father.
She’s defiant unfortunately, going on about how George Soros and Bill Gates are micro-implanting us with the vaccines and that it’s all a hoax and a Jewish cabal. We’ve tried pleading, reasoning, appealing to her shared love of family… all has seemingly further entrenched her rejection of all things pandemic-related.
Post by: OtherJen on September 26, 2021, 08:52:41 AM
Posting here because it seemed a good place to share…
We’ve got an aunt who’s gone deep down the rabbit-hole of OAN-style conspiracy theories. She’s a part-time health care professional and the great-aunt to our unvaccinated 3 year old and daughter to an 89 year old with failing health in hospice care.
She’s been notified by her employer that if she fails to get vaccinated by next week then she will be put on indefinitely leave without pay. We have similarly told her that we won’t allow her in our home unvaccinated and won’t meet with her anywhere indoors or unmasked outdoors. Hospice care forbid her from seeing her own father.
She’s defiant unfortunately, going on about how George Soros and Bill Gates are micro-implanting us with the vaccines and that it’s all a hoax and a Jewish cabal. We’ve tried pleading, reasoning, appealing to her shared love of family… all has seemingly further entrenched her rejection of all things pandemic-related.
I'm sorry. Unfortunately, she's made her choice. Her cult beliefs are more important than her own health or relationships with family. All you can do is leave the metaphorical light on in hopes that she'll snap out of it before she destroys or loses her life.
Post by: sonofsven on September 26, 2021, 11:07:21 AM
Posting here because it seemed a good place to share…
We’ve got an aunt who’s gone deep down the rabbit-hole of OAN-style conspiracy theories. She’s a part-time health care professional and the great-aunt to our unvaccinated 3 year old and daughter to an 89 year old with failing health in hospice care.
She’s been notified by her employer that if she fails to get vaccinated by next week then she will be put on indefinitely leave without pay. We have similarly told her that we won’t allow her in our home unvaccinated and won’t meet with her anywhere indoors or unmasked outdoors. Hospice care forbid her from seeing her own father.
She’s defiant unfortunately, going on about how George Soros and Bill Gates are micro-implanting us with the vaccines and that it’s all a hoax and a Jewish cabal. We’ve tried pleading, reasoning, appealing to her shared love of family… all has seemingly further entrenched her rejection of all things pandemic-related.
My partner is dealing with this with her family in Alaska.
Dad, mid 80's, recently hospitalized with pneumonia, his son (partner's brother) and daughter in law are taking care of him at home, all unvaxed. And they love to take dad out shopping, visiting friends, etc
Partner wrote a very good text pleading with her brother to get himself and his family vaxxed (brother has a history of his own health issues and has been recently hospitalized himself) for dad's sake, if nothing else, and the response was "I don't have enough information to make that decision".
What a cop out.
Post by: scantee on September 26, 2021, 04:39:59 PM
Post by: jinga nation on September 26, 2021, 05:56:40 PM
When he brings it up, I ask, "Does this affect you? If no, then why spread this? If yes, then where did you get these news from? If on social media, did you verify by reading the entire article on the web to understand context? Did you then read an article from the other country's side? Did you you finally read about it on a 3rd country's website? If you do all 3, and then are more aware of the issues at hand, does your perspective change? Now you are free to believe what you want, after you've heard each side's story."
99% of the time 100% of the info is faked up BS being spread via FaceBook/WhatsApp. He's off FB now, and calmer. And he's blocking/deleting a majority of the nonsense sent to him on Whatsapp.
Post by: GuitarStv on September 27, 2021, 07:55:30 AM
The depressing thing about the microchipping conspiracy is the reality that no one cares enough about average people to bother to microchip them. Like, sorry, but the government does not care enough about you as a 50-something person in middle America with a job as a home health aide to bother to track your every movement. You simply are not that important. To be clear, I put myself in this category as well but at least I have the self-awareness to realize that my individual life as a pretty average person does not warrant constant tracking by government.
I think it comes down to a general disbelief in governmental efficiency. The thing the microchipping advocates don't seem to realize is that they've paid good money to purchase and now carefully carry around a tracking microchip everywhere they go . . . it's called a cell phone. As inefficient as it can be, the government would certainly choose to track you via the tracking chip that costs them nothing vs paying for a new chip that they then have to inject into everyone's arms.
:P
Post by: talltexan on September 27, 2021, 08:20:44 AM
I´m watching the 45 rally in Georgia on and off.
45 is basically telling his followers that election management in this country is beyond repair.
Maybe you should tell your parents to boycott the coming elections as participation would just serve as support of the irredeemiably corrupt system.
Excellent. Hopefully Trump blasts this insanity 24/7 to his fans and demoralizes them so much they don't turn out in the mid-terms (which are otherwise likely to be a blowout against the Dems, given historical patterns).
They don't need to vote, as long as they keep legislative control in enough states that those states will find a way to give electors to the Republican candidate in 2024.
Post by: nereo on September 27, 2021, 08:21:09 AM
The depressing thing about the microchipping conspiracy is the reality that no one cares enough about average people to bother to microchip them. Like, sorry, but the government does not care enough about you as a 50-something person in middle America with a job as a home health aide to bother to track your every movement. You simply are not that important. To be clear, I put myself in this category as well but at least I have the self-awareness to realize that my individual life as a pretty average person does not warrant constant tracking by government.
I think it comes down to a general disbelief in governmental efficiency. The thing the microchipping advocates don't seem to realize is that they've paid good money to purchase and now carefully carry around a tracking microchip everywhere they go . . . it's called a cell phone. As inefficient as it can be, the government would certainly choose to track you via the tracking chip that costs them nothing vs paying for a new chip that they then have to inject into everyone's arms.
True. I also work implanting "microchips" (basically encapsulated RFID tags) into fin-fish for study.
Frankly the technology for "implantable microchips" is a fantasy. RFID chips work because they are passive - they need to pass very close to a reader (composed of a electromagnetic field) to give off a signal, and then it's limited to a simple fixed bar-code number. they are about half-the size of a grain of rice, still WAY bigger than what you could fit into a vaccine syringe. It's basically just an ID tag, and it can't to anymore more than record when you pass by a reader -- which as you've pointed out your cell phone does several times every minute. What they CAN'T do is any sort of computation, monitoring or recording.
The problem with any sort of device which actually has any storage or monitoring capabilities is they need a power source, and then a transmitter, and all of which needs to be encapsulated so your body doesn't destroy the sensitive parts. And while "small" devices exist (think the side of a nickel) - they have extremely short duration times and they are still several orders of magnitude large than what you could inject.
Post by: SwordGuy on September 27, 2021, 08:31:27 AM
I´m watching the 45 rally in Georgia on and off.
45 is basically telling his followers that election management in this country is beyond repair.
Maybe you should tell your parents to boycott the coming elections as participation would just serve as support of the irredeemiably corrupt system.
Excellent. Hopefully Trump blasts this insanity 24/7 to his fans and demoralizes them so much they don't turn out in the mid-terms (which are otherwise likely to be a blowout against the Dems, given historical patterns).
They don't need to vote, as long as they keep legislative control in enough states that those states will find a way to give electors to the Republican candidate in 2024.
And that is EXACTLY what the plan is.
Post by: ysette9 on September 27, 2021, 09:02:24 AM
The depressing thing about the microchipping conspiracy is the reality that no one cares enough about average people to bother to microchip them. Like, sorry, but the government does not care enough about you as a 50-something person in middle America with a job as a home health aide to bother to track your every movement. You simply are not that important. To be clear, I put myself in this category as well but at least I have the self-awareness to realize that my individual life as a pretty average person does not warrant constant tracking by government.
The most ridiculous part of this to me is that most people are ALREDY TRACKED by the cell phone in their pocket and the apps with location services they willingly signed up for. They spend energy on stupid conspiracy theory shit and probably don’t bother to turn off geotagging on the selfies they post online.
**
Edit: I see someone else just made the same point above
Post by: wenchsenior on September 27, 2021, 09:39:09 AM
The depressing thing about the microchipping conspiracy is the reality that no one cares enough about average people to bother to microchip them. Like, sorry, but the government does not care enough about you as a 50-something person in middle America with a job as a home health aide to bother to track your every movement. You simply are not that important. To be clear, I put myself in this category as well but at least I have the self-awareness to realize that my individual life as a pretty average person does not warrant constant tracking by government.
I think it comes down to a general disbelief in governmental efficiency. The thing the microchipping advocates don't seem to realize is that they've paid good money to purchase and now carefully carry around a tracking microchip everywhere they go . . . it's called a cell phone. As inefficient as it can be, the government would certainly choose to track you via the tracking chip that costs them nothing vs paying for a new chip that they then have to inject into everyone's arms.
True. I also work implanting "microchips" (basically encapsulated RFID tags) into fin-fish for study.
Frankly the technology for "implantable microchips" is a fantasy. RFID chips work because they are passive - they need to pass very close to a reader (composed of a electromagnetic field) to give off a signal, and then it's limited to a simple fixed bar-code number. they are about half-the size of a grain of rice, still WAY bigger than what you could fit into a vaccine syringe. It's basically just an ID tag, and it can't to anymore more than record when you pass by a reader -- which as you've pointed out your cell phone does several times every minute. What they CAN'T do is any sort of computation, monitoring or recording.
The problem with any sort of device which actually has any storage or monitoring capabilities is they need a power source, and then a transmitter, and all of which needs to be encapsulated so your body doesn't destroy the sensitive parts. And while "small" devices exist (think the side of a nickel) - they have extremely short duration times and they are still several orders of magnitude large than what you could inject.
I know, right? Every time I hear a variant of the 'someone's going to track me via microchip' I think about how INCREDIBLY DELIGHTED wildlife and fisheries biologists would be if only we had that tech. If only, if only, if only.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on September 27, 2021, 09:48:27 AM
The depressing thing about the microchipping conspiracy is the reality that no one cares enough about average people to bother to microchip them. Like, sorry, but the government does not care enough about you as a 50-something person in middle America with a job as a home health aide to bother to track your every movement. You simply are not that important. To be clear, I put myself in this category as well but at least I have the self-awareness to realize that my individual life as a pretty average person does not warrant constant tracking by government.
I think it comes down to a general disbelief in governmental efficiency. The thing the microchipping advocates don't seem to realize is that they've paid good money to purchase and now carefully carry around a tracking microchip everywhere they go . . . it's called a cell phone. As inefficient as it can be, the government would certainly choose to track you via the tracking chip that costs them nothing vs paying for a new chip that they then have to inject into everyone's arms.
True. I also work implanting "microchips" (basically encapsulated RFID tags) into fin-fish for study.
Frankly the technology for "implantable microchips" is a fantasy. RFID chips work because they are passive - they need to pass very close to a reader (composed of a electromagnetic field) to give off a signal, and then it's limited to a simple fixed bar-code number. they are about half-the size of a grain of rice, still WAY bigger than what you could fit into a vaccine syringe. It's basically just an ID tag, and it can't to anymore more than record when you pass by a reader -- which as you've pointed out your cell phone does several times every minute. What they CAN'T do is any sort of computation, monitoring or recording.
The problem with any sort of device which actually has any storage or monitoring capabilities is they need a power source, and then a transmitter, and all of which needs to be encapsulated so your body doesn't destroy the sensitive parts. And while "small" devices exist (think the side of a nickel) - they have extremely short duration times and they are still several orders of magnitude large than what you could inject.
I know, right? Every time I hear a variant of the 'someone's going to track me via microchip' I think about how INCREDIBLY DELIGHTED wildlife and fisheries biologists would be if only we had that tech. If only, if only, if only.
If only, for sure. Tracking migratory birds, mammals, fish, insects. Seeing how much of its home range an animal is occupying over a given period of time. No more radio collars. Bliss. Heaven.
Post by: OzzieandHarriet on September 27, 2021, 11:18:16 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/09/27/misinformation-epidemic-among-unvaccinated-republicans-one-stat/
Post by: wenchsenior on September 27, 2021, 11:41:29 AM
The depressing thing about the microchipping conspiracy is the reality that no one cares enough about average people to bother to microchip them. Like, sorry, but the government does not care enough about you as a 50-something person in middle America with a job as a home health aide to bother to track your every movement. You simply are not that important. To be clear, I put myself in this category as well but at least I have the self-awareness to realize that my individual life as a pretty average person does not warrant constant tracking by government.
I think it comes down to a general disbelief in governmental efficiency. The thing the microchipping advocates don't seem to realize is that they've paid good money to purchase and now carefully carry around a tracking microchip everywhere they go . . . it's called a cell phone. As inefficient as it can be, the government would certainly choose to track you via the tracking chip that costs them nothing vs paying for a new chip that they then have to inject into everyone's arms.
True. I also work implanting "microchips" (basically encapsulated RFID tags) into fin-fish for study.
Frankly the technology for "implantable microchips" is a fantasy. RFID chips work because they are passive - they need to pass very close to a reader (composed of a electromagnetic field) to give off a signal, and then it's limited to a simple fixed bar-code number. they are about half-the size of a grain of rice, still WAY bigger than what you could fit into a vaccine syringe. It's basically just an ID tag, and it can't to anymore more than record when you pass by a reader -- which as you've pointed out your cell phone does several times every minute. What they CAN'T do is any sort of computation, monitoring or recording.
The problem with any sort of device which actually has any storage or monitoring capabilities is they need a power source, and then a transmitter, and all of which needs to be encapsulated so your body doesn't destroy the sensitive parts. And while "small" devices exist (think the side of a nickel) - they have extremely short duration times and they are still several orders of magnitude large than what you could inject.
I know, right? Every time I hear a variant of the 'someone's going to track me via microchip' I think about how INCREDIBLY DELIGHTED wildlife and fisheries biologists would be if only we had that tech. If only, if only, if only.
If only, for sure. Tracking migratory birds, mammals, fish, insects. Seeing how much of its home range an animal is occupying over a given period of time. No more radio collars. Bliss. Heaven.
My husband has a satellite tracker on a few individuals of a super-understudied hawk species right now, and it is awesome seeing the little blips on the map (nest grove or home range for months/occasional little exploratory blip/last few days, BAM, DOWN THRU MEXICO), but the data are still so coarse that it is just as frustrating as exciting. And back-pack mounts just objectively suck, even if they are the best option.
Post by: jeninco on September 27, 2021, 12:55:11 PM
The depressing thing about the microchipping conspiracy is the reality that no one cares enough about average people to bother to microchip them. Like, sorry, but the government does not care enough about you as a 50-something person in middle America with a job as a home health aide to bother to track your every movement. You simply are not that important. To be clear, I put myself in this category as well but at least I have the self-awareness to realize that my individual life as a pretty average person does not warrant constant tracking by government.
I think it comes down to a general disbelief in governmental efficiency. The thing the microchipping advocates don't seem to realize is that they've paid good money to purchase and now carefully carry around a tracking microchip everywhere they go . . . it's called a cell phone. As inefficient as it can be, the government would certainly choose to track you via the tracking chip that costs them nothing vs paying for a new chip that they then have to inject into everyone's arms.
:P
I made this exact point to some guy at a hotel breakfast who I was chatting with (to be polite) this summer. He asked when I thought the government would be putting chips into people's heads, and I looked at him, looked at his phone, and said "why would they bother -- you already have one you carry around with you everywhere and all the time?"
Post by: Just Joe on September 27, 2021, 01:16:46 PM
My dad texts/emails meinfofake news on two constantly warring countries in Asia. I delete it.
When he brings it up, I ask, "Does this affect you? If no, then why spread this? If yes, then where did you get these news from? If on social media, did you verify by reading the entire article on the web to understand context? Did you then read an article from the other country's side? Did you you finally read about it on a 3rd country's website? If you do all 3, and then are more aware of the issues at hand, does your perspective change? Now you are free to believe what you want, after you've heard each side's story."
99% of the time 100% of the info is faked up BS being spread via FaceBook/WhatsApp. He's off FB now, and calmer. And he's blocking/deleting a majority of the nonsense sent to him on Whatsapp.
I think I misunderstood part of your post - the countries or the war is fictional? Or just the rumors that mention them are fictional?
If he believes in fictional wars or fictional countries he gets the blue ribbon for conspiracy believers today.
Post by: Just Joe on September 27, 2021, 01:19:38 PM
Post by: nereo on September 27, 2021, 07:30:03 PM
And some people tell the world every little thing they are doing using social media and search engines.
A little over a year ago we had this amazingly frustrating thread about how detailed cell-phone tracking could be. We went through the physical technology, how major carriers had pubically testified about selling location data to private companies, and how data mining has become so sophisticated that journalists, LEOs and private companies could micro-dissect movement patterns to a profound degree.
Despite understanding (and accepting) each of these parts, a couple posters could not accept that their cell phone could be used to follow their movements and infer patterns (eg favorite stores, speeding, affairs) without their knowledge.
It was truly bizarre. It basically came down to “I believe all of these things already exist but I don’t believe they could ever be used against me”.
Post by: jrhampt on September 28, 2021, 08:03:33 AM
Post by: Metalcat on September 28, 2021, 08:31:13 AM
The answer to the original question is that you can't handle parents who believe fake news. In regards to the pandemic, you follow the cdc guidelines, urge them to get vaccinated, fail to persuade them, wait until they get sick, hope they don't die, and carry on avoiding certain topics of conversation. You will NEVER get through to them. My parents got COVID in early September when the hospitals were full in their area (still are), went on oxygen at home for weeks (one is still on oxygen), almost died, and are still convinced that the vaccine kills people.
I don't agree.
I'm a medical professional and have successfully converted staunch anti-western medicine people to come around to accepting various treatments that they were absolutely, ferociously dead set against.
It's not impossible, it's just very difficult, and you have to work *with* the mechanisms that are convincing them in the first place, not against them. If they don't feel validated in their concerns, they will never listen.
We're talking about people who have been convinced of nonsense. If they can be lead to believe nonsense, they can be lead to believe anything. These are by definition the *most* easily convinced people out there.
Post by: SwordGuy on September 28, 2021, 09:42:50 AM
The answer to the original question is that you can't handle parents who believe fake news. In regards to the pandemic, you follow the cdc guidelines, urge them to get vaccinated, fail to persuade them, wait until they get sick, hope they don't die, and carry on avoiding certain topics of conversation. You will NEVER get through to them. My parents got COVID in early September when the hospitals were full in their area (still are), went on oxygen at home for weeks (one is still on oxygen), almost died, and are still convinced that the vaccine kills people.
I don't agree.
I'm a medical professional and have successfully converted staunch anti-western medicine people to come around to accepting various treatments that they were absolutely, ferociously dead set against.
It's not impossible, it's just very difficult, and you have to work *with* the mechanisms that are convincing them in the first place, not against them. If they don't feel validated in their concerns, they will never listen.
We're talking about people who have been convinced of nonsense. If they can be lead to believe nonsense, they can be lead to believe anything. These are by definition the *most* easily convinced people out there.
I'm just so worn down by this type of person that I've misplaced my capacity to hide my complete and utter disdain for what they believe. I'm hoping I'll find it again and it will be full to the brim since it hasn't been used for several years.
Until then, your approach won't work for me. They may be gullible as hell, but they're not stupid enough to miss the signs that I think they're a complete moron, and that ruins your approach for me. I used to be good at it but the well ran dry.
Post by: Metalcat on September 28, 2021, 10:24:55 AM
The answer to the original question is that you can't handle parents who believe fake news. In regards to the pandemic, you follow the cdc guidelines, urge them to get vaccinated, fail to persuade them, wait until they get sick, hope they don't die, and carry on avoiding certain topics of conversation. You will NEVER get through to them. My parents got COVID in early September when the hospitals were full in their area (still are), went on oxygen at home for weeks (one is still on oxygen), almost died, and are still convinced that the vaccine kills people.
I don't agree.
I'm a medical professional and have successfully converted staunch anti-western medicine people to come around to accepting various treatments that they were absolutely, ferociously dead set against.
It's not impossible, it's just very difficult, and you have to work *with* the mechanisms that are convincing them in the first place, not against them. If they don't feel validated in their concerns, they will never listen.
We're talking about people who have been convinced of nonsense. If they can be lead to believe nonsense, they can be lead to believe anything. These are by definition the *most* easily convinced people out there.
I'm just so worn down by this type of person that I've misplaced my capacity to hide my complete and utter disdain for what they believe. I'm hoping I'll find it again and it will be full to the brim since it hasn't been used for several years.
Until then, your approach won't work for me. They may be gullible as hell, but they're not stupid enough to miss the signs that I think they're a complete moron, and that ruins your approach for me. I used to be good at it but the well ran dry.
I'm not arguing it's worth the effort, I'm arguing against the stance that it can't be done.
Whether or not you have the bandwidth for it is a different question.
But it *can* be done.
Post by: nereo on September 28, 2021, 10:36:22 AM
The answer to the original question is that you can't handle parents who believe fake news. In regards to the pandemic, you follow the cdc guidelines, urge them to get vaccinated, fail to persuade them, wait until they get sick, hope they don't die, and carry on avoiding certain topics of conversation. You will NEVER get through to them. My parents got COVID in early September when the hospitals were full in their area (still are), went on oxygen at home for weeks (one is still on oxygen), almost died, and are still convinced that the vaccine kills people.
I don't agree.
I'm a medical professional and have successfully converted staunch anti-western medicine people to come around to accepting various treatments that they were absolutely, ferociously dead set against.
It's not impossible, it's just very difficult, and you have to work *with* the mechanisms that are convincing them in the first place, not against them. If they don't feel validated in their concerns, they will never listen.
We're talking about people who have been convinced of nonsense. If they can be lead to believe nonsense, they can be lead to believe anything. These are by definition the *most* easily convinced people out there.
I'm just so worn down by this type of person that I've misplaced my capacity to hide my complete and utter disdain for what they believe. I'm hoping I'll find it again and it will be full to the brim since it hasn't been used for several years.
Until then, your approach won't work for me. They may be gullible as hell, but they're not stupid enough to miss the signs that I think they're a complete moron, and that ruins your approach for me. I used to be good at it but the well ran dry.
I'm not arguing it's worth the effort, I'm arguing against the stance that it can't be done.
Whether or not you have the bandwidth for it is a different question.
But it *can* be done.
To say that it can’t be done ignored the scores of formerly deeply entrenched people who have shifted their beliefs for a whole mess of reasons. Is it easy or likely to succeed? No. But that doesn’t make the effort futile
Post by: SwordGuy on September 28, 2021, 11:20:21 AM
...
I'm not arguing it's worth the effort, I'm arguing against the stance that it can't be done.
Whether or not you have the bandwidth for it is a different question.
But it *can* be done.
I agree.
Post by: jrhampt on September 28, 2021, 12:07:32 PM
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on September 28, 2021, 12:14:13 PM
Post by: Sibley on October 13, 2021, 05:53:41 PM
Now, I'm not thrilled with the contractor. I was considering using him for something at my house, but won't be now. However, I'm extremely not thrilled with my mom speaking for me. Which I told her. So now she's mad at me. I'm also not thrilled that apparently no one who was actually on site today is capable of clearly communicating with me what's going on.
Fun /s.
Post by: SwordGuy on October 13, 2021, 07:06:40 PM
Well, my mom is officially a Karen. Got a contractor over at their house doing a project. He raised the price by $100 and apparently mom threatened him that I would post negative reviews on social media. At least she's not a Karen likely to be videoed and go viral?
Now, I'm not thrilled with the contractor. I was considering using him for something at my house, but won't be now. However, I'm extremely not thrilled with my mom speaking for me. Which I told her. So now she's mad at me. I'm also not thrilled that apparently no one who was actually on site today is capable of clearly communicating with me what's going on.
Fun /s.
Estimates are estimates. You never know what you'll find once you start fixing something in a house. $100 is NOTHING if more parts or time was needed.
Post by: Sibley on October 13, 2021, 08:14:19 PM
Well, my mom is officially a Karen. Got a contractor over at their house doing a project. He raised the price by $100 and apparently mom threatened him that I would post negative reviews on social media. At least she's not a Karen likely to be videoed and go viral?
Now, I'm not thrilled with the contractor. I was considering using him for something at my house, but won't be now. However, I'm extremely not thrilled with my mom speaking for me. Which I told her. So now she's mad at me. I'm also not thrilled that apparently no one who was actually on site today is capable of clearly communicating with me what's going on.
Fun /s.
Estimates are estimates. You never know what you'll find once you start fixing something in a house. $100 is NOTHING if more parts or time was needed.
I'm well aware. Its working out ok money wise. It's more than I'd wanted to pay (I'm paying for most of the project), but it's also way more work than I expected so the overall price is fair. Project is to dig out rocks and other waste from the side of the house left over from redoing the driveway, then fill with gravel base and soil. There was way more rock than anyone expected, so more digging plus more materials to refill. I get it. But the communication all around sucked. The contractor messed up, mom messed up, dad messed up, and the contractor has now been instructed to only talk to me if there's problems. Which I think he's perfectly ok with, given mom's behavior today. Hopefully work will be done tomorrow, weather permitting.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on October 27, 2021, 12:30:03 PM
I do think some people are persuadable, but I am now convinced that nothing will persuade my parents. Nothing. We didn't see them for almost two years until they got covid. They haven't seen their grandkids because they are unvaccinated. They were willing to trade off all those holidays with us just so they could remain unvaccinated. They think the vaccine causes blood clots and covid does not. They believe the vaccine has killed 150,000 people. They believe covid has killed fewer people than the vaccine has. They believe their newly acquired "natural immunity" will last forever and is far better than any vaccine. I really hope they're right about it lasting, because they still believe the 4+ weeks (ongoing) of sickness and almost having lost my Mom is better than having been vaccinated. I honestly don't think anything will get through to them at this point. Maybe a second infection that actually does kill one of them? Idk. All I know is that I can't persuade them, and neither can my relatives in the medical profession with actual experience dealing with covid patients. They just don't believe them.
OP here - I've accepted the same. Nothing will change their mind. My last conversation with my mom was a while ago. We have stopped talking completely down from about 3-4 times a week before all the QAnon nonsense. Instead of slowly coming to the realization and doing some fact finding as other QAnon members have done, she has instead doubled down. She still denies covid exist even though all of her 3 kids have had it. She still fervently believes Hillary Clinton, the Queen of England and many democrats in Hollywood are torturing young girls for their adrenal glands. She basically believes every conspiracy now that has ever been invented. Moon landing, 911 inside job...all of them. And she still actively attends Trump rallys - I didn't realize they were still a thing.
I've become a member over at QAnon casualties on reddit, we arent alone as this has happened to many close families. Something that worries me is that a number of former QAnon members have reported suicidal thoughts as they realized they were mistaken.
I worry about my parents now. I worry they will do something that places them on the FBI radar in one direction and I worry about potential suicide from the other direction. Its a shitty thing. But ultimately I can only control my actions. As for changing them or even mitigating the damage, its been a complete lost cause. I've given up.
Post by: Arbitrage on October 27, 2021, 01:28:24 PM
I do think some people are persuadable, but I am now convinced that nothing will persuade my parents. Nothing. We didn't see them for almost two years until they got covid. They haven't seen their grandkids because they are unvaccinated. They were willing to trade off all those holidays with us just so they could remain unvaccinated. They think the vaccine causes blood clots and covid does not. They believe the vaccine has killed 150,000 people. They believe covid has killed fewer people than the vaccine has. They believe their newly acquired "natural immunity" will last forever and is far better than any vaccine. I really hope they're right about it lasting, because they still believe the 4+ weeks (ongoing) of sickness and almost having lost my Mom is better than having been vaccinated. I honestly don't think anything will get through to them at this point. Maybe a second infection that actually does kill one of them? Idk. All I know is that I can't persuade them, and neither can my relatives in the medical profession with actual experience dealing with covid patients. They just don't believe them.
OP here - I've accepted the same. Nothing will change their mind. My last conversation with my mom was a while ago. We have stopped talking completely down from about 3-4 times a week before all the QAnon nonsense. Instead of slowly coming to the realization and doing some fact finding as other QAnon members have done, she has instead doubled down. She still denies covid exist even though all of her 3 kids have had it. She still fervently believes Hillary Clinton, the Queen of England and many democrats in Hollywood are torturing young girls for their adrenal glands. She basically believes every conspiracy now that has ever been invented. Moon landing, 911 inside job...all of them. And she still actively attends Trump rallys - I didn't realize they were still a thing.
I've become a member over at QAnon casualties on reddit, we arent alone as this has happened to many close families. Something that worries me is that a number of former QAnon members have reported suicidal thoughts as they realized they were mistaken.
I worry about my parents now. I worry they will do something that places them on the FBI radar in one direction and I worry about potential suicide from the other direction. Its a shitty thing. But ultimately I can only control my actions. As for changing them or even mitigating the damage, its been a complete lost cause. I've given up.
Sorry, that's terribly sad to hear. I have some fears that my mom and her husband will get lost down that rabbit hole, but thus far they seem to have kept off of the craziest sites and are limiting their conspiracy buy-ins to whatever Fox News tells them. They certainly willingly embrace (and openly exhort) that Biden and the Dems are the root of all evil, but don't ever trumpet the really wacky stuff. Our insistence on the importance of vaccination and keeping our children safe has played some role in their relatively prompt vaccinations, and we didn't even need to nag them about it.
Here's hoping for a good outcome for you and your family.
Post by: nereo on October 27, 2021, 04:55:36 PM
I do think some people are persuadable, but I am now convinced that nothing will persuade my parents. Nothing. We didn't see them for almost two years until they got covid. They haven't seen their grandkids because they are unvaccinated. They were willing to trade off all those holidays with us just so they could remain unvaccinated. They think the vaccine causes blood clots and covid does not. They believe the vaccine has killed 150,000 people. They believe covid has killed fewer people than the vaccine has. They believe their newly acquired "natural immunity" will last forever and is far better than any vaccine. I really hope they're right about it lasting, because they still believe the 4+ weeks (ongoing) of sickness and almost having lost my Mom is better than having been vaccinated. I honestly don't think anything will get through to them at this point. Maybe a second infection that actually does kill one of them? Idk. All I know is that I can't persuade them, and neither can my relatives in the medical profession with actual experience dealing with covid patients. They just don't believe them.
OP here - I've accepted the same. Nothing will change their mind. My last conversation with my mom was a while ago. We have stopped talking completely down from about 3-4 times a week before all the QAnon nonsense. Instead of slowly coming to the realization and doing some fact finding as other QAnon members have done, she has instead doubled down. She still denies covid exist even though all of her 3 kids have had it. She still fervently believes Hillary Clinton, the Queen of England and many democrats in Hollywood are torturing young girls for their adrenal glands. She basically believes every conspiracy now that has ever been invented. Moon landing, 911 inside job...all of them. And she still actively attends Trump rallys - I didn't realize they were still a thing.
I've become a member over at QAnon casualties on reddit, we arent alone as this has happened to many close families. Something that worries me is that a number of former QAnon members have reported suicidal thoughts as they realized they were mistaken.
I worry about my parents now. I worry they will do something that places them on the FBI radar in one direction and I worry about potential suicide from the other direction. Its a shitty thing. But ultimately I can only control my actions. As for changing them or even mitigating the damage, its been a complete lost cause. I've given up.
Just wanted to say you aren’t alone on this forum either OP.
Sorry, and it sucks.
Feel free to PM me if you ever need to commiserate @Kroaler
Post by: BicycleB on October 27, 2021, 07:45:42 PM
Something that worries me is that a number of former QAnon members have reported suicidal thoughts as they realized they were mistaken.
I worry about my parents now. I worry they will do something that places them on the FBI radar in one direction and I worry about potential suicide from the other direction. Its a shitty thing. But ultimately I can only control my actions. As for changing them or even mitigating the damage, its been a complete lost cause. I've given up.
:(
Post by: the_fixer on October 27, 2021, 07:56:10 PM
Another one here checking in to let you know you are not alone my wife has cut off all communication with her aunt recently and has reduced communication with her dad significantlyI do think some people are persuadable, but I am now convinced that nothing will persuade my parents. Nothing. We didn't see them for almost two years until they got covid. They haven't seen their grandkids because they are unvaccinated. They were willing to trade off all those holidays with us just so they could remain unvaccinated. They think the vaccine causes blood clots and covid does not. They believe the vaccine has killed 150,000 people. They believe covid has killed fewer people than the vaccine has. They believe their newly acquired "natural immunity" will last forever and is far better than any vaccine. I really hope they're right about it lasting, because they still believe the 4+ weeks (ongoing) of sickness and almost having lost my Mom is better than having been vaccinated. I honestly don't think anything will get through to them at this point. Maybe a second infection that actually does kill one of them? Idk. All I know is that I can't persuade them, and neither can my relatives in the medical profession with actual experience dealing with covid patients. They just don't believe them.
OP here - I've accepted the same. Nothing will change their mind. My last conversation with my mom was a while ago. We have stopped talking completely down from about 3-4 times a week before all the QAnon nonsense. Instead of slowly coming to the realization and doing some fact finding as other QAnon members have done, she has instead doubled down. She still denies covid exist even though all of her 3 kids have had it. She still fervently believes Hillary Clinton, the Queen of England and many democrats in Hollywood are torturing young girls for their adrenal glands. She basically believes every conspiracy now that has ever been invented. Moon landing, 911 inside job...all of them. And she still actively attends Trump rallys - I didn't realize they were still a thing.
I've become a member over at QAnon casualties on reddit, we arent alone as this has happened to many close families. Something that worries me is that a number of former QAnon members have reported suicidal thoughts as they realized they were mistaken.
I worry about my parents now. I worry they will do something that places them on the FBI radar in one direction and I worry about potential suicide from the other direction. Its a shitty thing. But ultimately I can only control my actions. As for changing them or even mitigating the damage, its been a complete lost cause. I've given up.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: talltexan on October 29, 2021, 11:50:42 AM
Post by: Just Joe on October 29, 2021, 02:58:13 PM
Wonder what the parents would think if we explained WE are "Leftists" too. That will will likely forever vote against their politics b/c of the past decade of their party leadership has done and said.
I frequently get email elaborating on their political beliefs, the latest FoxNews rumors, and 95%+ of it so far can be fact checked away in seconds.
We don't share their beliefs on most (any?) of the big topics. We could have conversations that would make their heads explode.
Puppies and kittens... Puppies and kittens... Puppies and kittens... ;)
We'll sit and listen to the latest FoxNews or Facebook rumor being repeated against a backdrop of reality TV - conveniently what DW and I agree is the worst of the worst of TV interspersed with local TV ads about the next big sale or high interest loan.
From the other parent: Hah, hah - aren't these reality people just the best?
From the first parent: Leftists this and socialist that... Biden is the worst president that this country has ever had. The worst! And Pelosi! Why, that woman....
SIGH.
Post by: SunnyDays on October 29, 2021, 03:06:54 PM
DW and I expect to get a dose this weekend from one set of the parents.
Wonder what the parents would think if we explained WE are "Leftists" too. That will will likely forever vote against their politics b/c of the past decade of their party leadership has done and said.
I frequently get email elaborating on their political beliefs, the latest FoxNews rumors, and 95%+ of it so far can be fact checked away in seconds.
We don't share their beliefs on most (any?) of the big topics. We could have conversations that would make their heads explode.
Puppies and kittens... Puppies and kittens... Puppies and kittens... ;)
We'll sit and listen to the latest FoxNews or Facebook rumor being repeated against a backdrop of reality TV - conveniently what DW and I agree is the worst of the worst of TV interspersed with local TV ads about the next big sale or high interest loan.
From the other parent: Hah, hah - aren't these reality people just the best?
From the first parent: Leftists this and socialist that... Biden is the worst president that this country has ever had. The worst! And Pelosi! Why, that woman....
SIGH.
Ugh. So why are you going?
Post by: ysette9 on October 29, 2021, 03:24:41 PM
DW and I expect to get a dose this weekend from one set of the parents.The part I can never get over is the concern about “extreme liberal left” in the US when the left here is center-right in pretty much any other modern western democracy. Like people somehow don’t realize that “radical left” ideas like healthcare for all and paid parental leave and mandatory vacation time is just ho-him status quo everywhere else?
Wonder what the parents would think if we explained WE are "Leftists" too. That will will likely forever vote against their politics b/c of the past decade of their party leadership has done and said.
I frequently get email elaborating on their political beliefs, the latest FoxNews rumors, and 95%+ of it so far can be fact checked away in seconds.
We don't share their beliefs on most (any?) of the big topics. We could have conversations that would make their heads explode.
Puppies and kittens... Puppies and kittens... Puppies and kittens... ;)
We'll sit and listen to the latest FoxNews or Facebook rumor being repeated against a backdrop of reality TV - conveniently what DW and I agree is the worst of the worst of TV interspersed with local TV ads about the next big sale or high interest loan.
From the other parent: Hah, hah - aren't these reality people just the best?
From the first parent: Leftists this and socialist that... Biden is the worst president that this country has ever had. The worst! And Pelosi! Why, that woman....
SIGH.
Post by: nereo on October 29, 2021, 03:42:48 PM
Yes, but…DW and I expect to get a dose this weekend from one set of the parents.The part I can never get over is the concern about “extreme liberal left” in the US when the left here is center-right in pretty much any other modern western democracy. Like people somehow don’t realize that “radical left” ideas like healthcare for all and paid parental leave and mandatory vacation time is just ho-him status quo everywhere else?
Wonder what the parents would think if we explained WE are "Leftists" too. That will will likely forever vote against their politics b/c of the past decade of their party leadership has done and said.
I frequently get email elaborating on their political beliefs, the latest FoxNews rumors, and 95%+ of it so far can be fact checked away in seconds.
We don't share their beliefs on most (any?) of the big topics. We could have conversations that would make their heads explode.
Puppies and kittens... Puppies and kittens... Puppies and kittens... ;)
We'll sit and listen to the latest FoxNews or Facebook rumor being repeated against a backdrop of reality TV - conveniently what DW and I agree is the worst of the worst of TV interspersed with local TV ads about the next big sale or high interest loan.
From the other parent: Hah, hah - aren't these reality people just the best?
From the first parent: Leftists this and socialist that... Biden is the worst president that this country has ever had. The worst! And Pelosi! Why, that woman....
SIGH.
1) America is the greatest nation ever, period. Question that and feel our wrath. Just don’t ask what metrics are being used to rank us #1.
2) if you are critical about our society it means you don’t love this country. Please leave. Wanting to improve our society is an implicit acknowledgment that we might not in fact be the greatest.
2b) …except the government and anyone who works for the government. They can be criticized regardless of facts or merit, because less government is always better, and government is never the solution, but always the problem
3) everyone, everywhere wishes they could be from the US. Except ungrateful lefty liberals.
4) the Truest Americans are those hardworking blue-collar rural folks with conservative Christian values which make up about 15% of the overall populace. They make America run. The roughly 85% who aren’t these folks “don’t get” what real America is like
5) God bless our men and women in service, regardless of the current subject.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 29, 2021, 04:39:03 PM
Yes, but…DW and I expect to get a dose this weekend from one set of the parents.The part I can never get over is the concern about “extreme liberal left” in the US when the left here is center-right in pretty much any other modern western democracy. Like people somehow don’t realize that “radical left” ideas like healthcare for all and paid parental leave and mandatory vacation time is just ho-him status quo everywhere else?
Wonder what the parents would think if we explained WE are "Leftists" too. That will will likely forever vote against their politics b/c of the past decade of their party leadership has done and said.
I frequently get email elaborating on their political beliefs, the latest FoxNews rumors, and 95%+ of it so far can be fact checked away in seconds.
We don't share their beliefs on most (any?) of the big topics. We could have conversations that would make their heads explode.
Puppies and kittens... Puppies and kittens... Puppies and kittens... ;)
We'll sit and listen to the latest FoxNews or Facebook rumor being repeated against a backdrop of reality TV - conveniently what DW and I agree is the worst of the worst of TV interspersed with local TV ads about the next big sale or high interest loan.
From the other parent: Hah, hah - aren't these reality people just the best?
From the first parent: Leftists this and socialist that... Biden is the worst president that this country has ever had. The worst! And Pelosi! Why, that woman....
SIGH.
1) America is the greatest nation ever, period. Question that and feel our wrath. Just don’t ask what metrics are being used to rank us #1.
2) if you are critical about our society it means you don’t love this country. Please leave. Wanting to improve our society is an implicit acknowledgment that we might not in fact be the greatest.
2b) …except the government and anyone who works for the government. They can be criticized regardless of facts or merit, because less government is always better, and government is never the solution, but always the problem
3) everyone, everywhere wishes they could be from the US. Except ungrateful lefty liberals.
4) the Truest Americans are those hardworking blue-collar rural folks with conservative Christian values which make up about 15% of the overall populace. They make America run. The roughly 85% who aren’t these folks “don’t get” what real America is like
5) God bless our men and women in service, regardless of the current subject.
Oh my, your time in Quebec has made you cynical. ;-)
Post by: LaineyAZ on October 30, 2021, 09:02:02 AM
Couples with decades-long marriages are breaking up. The one woman on TV was profiled in shadow so as not to reveal her identity, but she explained that, as a breast cancer survivor it was recommended by her oncologist that she get vaccinated. Her husband said that if she did he would divorce her.
Apparently they'd had a decent marriage for many years but he became a radical right-winger, and then rabidly anti-vax. She said it was "like a switch had been flipped."
Sadly, she's come to terms with this ending of her marriage and actually filed for the divorce herself.
I found this all especially heart-breaking but, as others have said, there seems to be no solution.
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on October 30, 2021, 09:15:25 AM
Did anyone see the article and TV news show about couples who are divorcing due to their different Covid-19 vaccination beliefs?
Couples with decades-long marriages are breaking up. The one woman on TV was profiled in shadow so as not to reveal her identity, but she explained that, as a breast cancer survivor it was recommended by her oncologist that she get vaccinated. Her husband said that if she did he would divorce her.
Apparently they'd had a decent marriage for many years but he became a radical right-winger, and then rabidly anti-vax. She said it was "like a switch had been flipped."
Sadly, she's come to terms with this ending of her marriage and actually filed for the divorce herself.
I found this all especially heart-breaking but, as others have said, there seems to be no solution.
As someone with an autoimmune disease, I would get a divorce is my husband chose not to be vaccinated, understanding the risk he was placing me in with that decision. It would be very difficult, & we have an otherwise very solid marriage. I would first attempt counseling & it wouldn't be an immediate thing, but if he wasn't willing to get the vaccine to protect my health...then, we would unable to be in a healthy marriage.
Post by: gooki on October 30, 2021, 11:12:26 PM
Quote
I found this all especially heart-breaking but, as others have said, there seems to be no solution.
I dunno. Seems pretty sensible to end a marriage when one person has gone full cray cray.
Post by: Metalcat on October 31, 2021, 05:51:42 AM
QuoteI found this all especially heart-breaking but, as others have said, there seems to be no solution.
I dunno. Seems pretty sensible to end a marriage when one person has gone full cray cray.
Or even more likely, the partner has always been a selfish, unreasonable ass, and this is finally the last straw.
Just because a marriage lasted a long time doesn't mean it was a happy, healthy one that whole time. Especially among the older generations. A shocking number of my senior patients really blossomed after their spouses died.
Post by: Dictionary Time on October 31, 2021, 07:17:42 AM
Now he’s in assisted living and seems to be surrounded by Fox News Nuts and it’s very hard on him. He doesn’t want to get into a fight every meal time, so he lets 90% of it go by, but sometimes he has to say something. He wants to know what happened to avoiding politics and religion in polite company.
So I hear all the conspiracy theories , second hand at least. It’s rough. I tell him to find other people to sit by. Even if they believe this crap, but don’t talk about it 24-7, that would be an improvement. After months, he seems to have found a little group of like-minded people. (Closer anyway, hard to get as far left as my dad here, lol). It reminds me of the Yeats quote, “the best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.” The saner have enough self awareness to not spout off constantly, so it’s harder to find them.
Post by: nereo on October 31, 2021, 08:01:16 AM
He wants to know what happened to avoiding politics and religion in polite company.
I’ve come to realize this concept of avoiding politics and religion in polite company isn’t one that’s shared by many other countries. In many cultures it’s as expected as discussing sports. I’m beginning to think our complete inability to discuss religion and politics with those that share differing views has created the situation we are now in.
Post by: Metalcat on October 31, 2021, 08:13:00 AM
He wants to know what happened to avoiding politics and religion in polite company.
I’ve come to realize this concept of avoiding politics and religion in polite company isn’t one that’s shared by many other countries. In many cultures it’s as expected as discussing sports. I’m beginning to think our complete inability to discuss religion and politics with those that share differing views has created the situation we are now in.
Yeah, I live in a political city. It's just a given that you talk politics here, and I've never been uncomfortable having a conversation with someone just because they hold differing political opinions. Certain political opinions? Yes, I will be uncomfortable, but not just differing opinions.
Religion here isn't nearly as politicized either, so differing religions is just kind of a non issue. "Oh you're a Muslim, and she's a Christian, and he's a Jew, and I'm Agnostic. Cool, no one cares, let's get started on this project."
That's not to say that certain political issues aren't a source of intense conflict, but even then, our issues aren't as clearly delineated along party lines. Largely because we don't just have two parties, so it's not unusual for two people who align on an issue to vote for different parties.
We also don't identify with parties the way Americans do. I'm not "a Liberal" if I vote for the Liberal party, not unless I register to be a member of that party, which only a minority of people bother doing. But for any given election, I vary in voting between 3 different parties.
So we really don't have that clear political identity that automatically implies where we stand on any given issue.
Suffice to say, yes, being accustom to having casual conversations about politics and religion, and not being automatically divided by political identity definitely makes for more cohesive communities.
The vast majority of my professional colleagues and friends are staunch fiscal conservatives, but I would never assume that that says anything about their social values or their religious affiliations. So those tensions just don't exist unless given a specific reason to.
ETA: that said, pp's specific scenario of being stuck in a home with those people sounds like torture to me
Post by: ixtap on October 31, 2021, 09:29:47 AM
He wants to know what happened to avoiding politics and religion in polite company.
I’ve come to realize this concept of avoiding politics and religion in polite company isn’t one that’s shared by many other countries. In many cultures it’s as expected as discussing sports. I’m beginning to think our complete inability to discuss religion and politics with those that share differing views has created the situation we are now in.
I first met my ILs in 2011 and FIL was renting about how stupid liberals were. So, obviously we have never had a productive conversation around politics, or even sociology. We can talk a bit about money: he is torn on FIRE, being happy we get the financial stuff but confused that his son might quit 15-20 years earlier yet than he was laid off. After all, how can you retire without owning a big house?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 31, 2021, 09:36:52 AM
A bit off topic, sorry - The American political system seems set up to foster divisiveness. Plus I don't understand this registration thing - the polls are private, no one knows how you vote, but if you are registered for a political party isn't it a valid assumption that you vote that way? And lose the privacy of the polling booth?
Post by: wenchsenior on October 31, 2021, 10:03:10 AM
What Malcat wrote could have been written by me, and a lot of other Canadians. I joined a provincial political party once ( a bunch of us did), to get the local candidate I wanted instead of a parachuted-in candidate. Once that election was over I let my membership lapse.
A bit off topic, sorry - The American political system seems set up to foster divisiveness. Plus I don't understand this registration thing - the polls are private, no one knows how you vote, but if you are registered for a political party isn't it a valid assumption that you vote that way? And lose the privacy of the polling booth?
Depending on the election, yes. I went to vote in some local elections a few years ago, and when I had to give my party registration at the check in table, the guy checking me in actually stopped proceedings dead and stared at me. Then he kind of chuckled and said, "well, you're the first one of of THOSE [registered democrat] we've had vote in this election! I didn't think this city had any."
Post by: SunnyDays on October 31, 2021, 10:26:49 AM
Post by: former player on October 31, 2021, 10:31:58 AM
As another Canadian, I vote for either of 2 parties, but never the third major one. (There are also 2 smaller, less popular parties.) It depends on how I think that voting one way or another might sway the minority/majority status of whoever does win. It's strategic voting, which I guess doesn't work with a two party system. My only political identity is who I am NOT.Voting against someone, or voting out an incumbent, is a completely valid use of a vote. There are too many people who will say they don't vote because they dislike all politicians, but in that case just vote for a new one to come in each time in order to ensure a level of turnover that cuts down on the corruption/complacency.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on October 31, 2021, 11:11:49 AM
Instead it's about the immediate need to stop what was already exposed and named pizzagate years ago.
Post by: Metalcat on October 31, 2021, 12:13:01 PM
As another Canadian, I vote for either of 2 parties, but never the third major one. (There are also 2 smaller, less popular parties.) It depends on how I think that voting one way or another might sway the minority/majority status of whoever does win. It's strategic voting, which I guess doesn't work with a two party system. My only political identity is who I am NOT.
Lol, yeah, I think a lot of us are "just not the fucking blue guys" voters.
Post by: Apples on October 31, 2021, 02:23:43 PM
Internationally, attention is given to our presidential elections. In the spring, a bunch of Republican and and Democratic candidates get whittled down to just 1-2 by midsummer. I live in a state where only registered Republicans can vote on the Republican primary and choose which presidential candidate they want to represent their party, and same for Democrats. People not registered to the 2 big parties can vote for a 3rd party candidate if they're registered with that party, or if you're not registered with any party you don't get to vote in that primary race, and wait until fall to choose between whatever the options are that other people decide. That leads a lot of people to register with the party they most align with. Other states have other rules.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 31, 2021, 02:43:15 PM
As another Canadian, I vote for either of 2 parties, but never the third major one. (There are also 2 smaller, less popular parties.) It depends on how I think that voting one way or another might sway the minority/majority status of whoever does win. It's strategic voting, which I guess doesn't work with a two party system. My only political identity is who I am NOT.
Lol, yeah, I think a lot of us are "just not the fucking blue guys" voters.
Oh yes! I used to live in farming rural Ontario, where blue is in both provincially and federally. Still managed to occasionally have nice, polite political discussions. I got the bad parts of the long gun legislation from them (there was some) and they got to hear from someone whose student was friends with one of the students killed at Dawson CEGEP (I found out because she missed class to go to the funeral). That one was definitely close to home, it appears that he was at my CEGEP first, without doing anything, and then went to Dawson.
Post by: GuitarStv on October 31, 2021, 03:47:43 PM
As another Canadian, I vote for either of 2 parties, but never the third major one. (There are also 2 smaller, less popular parties.) It depends on how I think that voting one way or another might sway the minority/majority status of whoever does win. It's strategic voting, which I guess doesn't work with a two party system. My only political identity is who I am NOT.
Lol, yeah, I think a lot of us are "just not the fucking blue guys" voters.
Oh yes! I used to live in farming rural Ontario, where blue is in both provincially and federally. Still managed to occasionally have nice, polite political discussions. I got the bad parts of the long gun legislation from them (there was some) and they got to hear from someone whose student was friends with one of the students killed at Dawson CEGEP (I found out because she missed class to go to the funeral). That one was definitely close to home, it appears that he was at my CEGEP first, without doing anything, and then went to Dawson.
If the blue guys just stopped trying to suck so hard I'd be really happy. It's like they are disgusted with the idea of ever getting my vote, so think up new ways to be less appealing all the time.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 31, 2021, 03:58:27 PM
As another Canadian, I vote for either of 2 parties, but never the third major one. (There are also 2 smaller, less popular parties.) It depends on how I think that voting one way or another might sway the minority/majority status of whoever does win. It's strategic voting, which I guess doesn't work with a two party system. My only political identity is who I am NOT.
Lol, yeah, I think a lot of us are "just not the fucking blue guys" voters.
Oh yes! I used to live in farming rural Ontario, where blue is in both provincially and federally. Still managed to occasionally have nice, polite political discussions. I got the bad parts of the long gun legislation from them (there was some) and they got to hear from someone whose student was friends with one of the students killed at Dawson CEGEP (I found out because she missed class to go to the funeral). That one was definitely close to home, it appears that he was at my CEGEP first, without doing anything, and then went to Dawson.
If the blue guys just stopped trying to suck so hard I'd be really happy. It's like they are disgusted with the idea of ever getting my vote, so think up new ways to be less appealing all the time.
The Canadian Tax section has been turned into a separate section (along with the UK and Australia). Maybe we should take this discussion over there? We have kind of hijacked this thread.
Of course, the Americans must be reading all this and wondering WTH? Plus our blue is their red, and vice versa, so extra confusing. Not to mention we have 2 (3? with the PPC) shades of blue, red, orange, and green - we are very brightly coloured!
Post by: Metalcat on October 31, 2021, 04:03:13 PM
As another Canadian, I vote for either of 2 parties, but never the third major one. (There are also 2 smaller, less popular parties.) It depends on how I think that voting one way or another might sway the minority/majority status of whoever does win. It's strategic voting, which I guess doesn't work with a two party system. My only political identity is who I am NOT.
Lol, yeah, I think a lot of us are "just not the fucking blue guys" voters.
Oh yes! I used to live in farming rural Ontario, where blue is in both provincially and federally. Still managed to occasionally have nice, polite political discussions. I got the bad parts of the long gun legislation from them (there was some) and they got to hear from someone whose student was friends with one of the students killed at Dawson CEGEP (I found out because she missed class to go to the funeral). That one was definitely close to home, it appears that he was at my CEGEP first, without doing anything, and then went to Dawson.
If the blue guys just stopped trying to suck so hard I'd be really happy. It's like they are disgusted with the idea of ever getting my vote, so think up new ways to be less appealing all the time.
The Canadian Tax section has been turned into a separate section (along with the UK and Australia). Maybe we should take this discussion over there? We have kind of hijacked this thread.
Of course, the Americans must be reading all this and wondering WTH? Plus our blue is their red, and vice versa, so extra confusing. Not to mention we have 2 (3? with the PPC) shades of blue, red, orange, and green - we are very brightly coloured!
Like a mutherfucking rainbow
Post by: SwordGuy on October 31, 2021, 04:42:21 PM
I think it's important to note that in some U.S. states, in the primary election (in the spring), you can only vote in races between people of the party you're registered to.
Internationally, attention is given to our presidential elections. In the spring, a bunch of Republican and and Democratic candidates get whittled down to just 1-2 by midsummer. I live in a state where only registered Republicans can vote on the Republican primary and choose which presidential candidate they want to represent their party, and same for Democrats. People not registered to the 2 big parties can vote for a 3rd party candidate if they're registered with that party, or if you're not registered with any party you don't get to vote in that primary race, and wait until fall to choose between whatever the options are that other people decide. That leads a lot of people to register with the party they most align with. Other states have other rules.
In states like this, the logical thing to do is to register for the party you like THE LEAST.
Why?
Because you might have some favorites, but most candidates from the party you like will probably be good enough.
But your moderating vote in the primary election for the opposition candidate will help weed out the cray-cray candidates from the other party.
Post by: SwordGuy on October 31, 2021, 04:43:44 PM
And yes, these people are that far gone...
Post by: nereo on October 31, 2021, 04:43:54 PM
Post by: SunnyDays on October 31, 2021, 05:20:33 PM
As another Canadian, I vote for either of 2 parties, but never the third major one. (There are also 2 smaller, less popular parties.) It depends on how I think that voting one way or another might sway the minority/majority status of whoever does win. It's strategic voting, which I guess doesn't work with a two party system. My only political identity is who I am NOT.
Lol, yeah, I think a lot of us are "just not the fucking blue guys" voters.
Oh yes! I used to live in farming rural Ontario, where blue is in both provincially and federally. Still managed to occasionally have nice, polite political discussions. I got the bad parts of the long gun legislation from them (there was some) and they got to hear from someone whose student was friends with one of the students killed at Dawson CEGEP (I found out because she missed class to go to the funeral). That one was definitely close to home, it appears that he was at my CEGEP first, without doing anything, and then went to Dawson.
If the blue guys just stopped trying to suck so hard I'd be really happy. It's like they are disgusted with the idea of ever getting my vote, so think up new ways to be less appealing all the time.
The Canadian Tax section has been turned into a separate section (along with the UK and Australia). Maybe we should take this discussion over there? We have kind of hijacked this thread.
Of course, the Americans must be reading all this and wondering WTH? Plus our blue is their red, and vice versa, so extra confusing. Not to mention we have 2 (3? with the PPC) shades of blue, red, orange, and green - we are very brightly coloured!
Like a mutherfucking rainbow
Or our paper money.
Post by: nereo on October 31, 2021, 05:28:36 PM
FTFY
Or ourpaperplastic money.
Post by: GuitarStv on October 31, 2021, 06:09:30 PM
FTFY
Or ourpaperplastic money.
It's been a couple years since I've even seen a bill. Do we still make that stuff, or has everyone else gone digital?
Post by: SunnyDays on October 31, 2021, 06:10:52 PM
FTFY
Or ourpaperplastic money.
Plastic money is my credit card, lol.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 31, 2021, 07:55:08 PM
Plus, there’s blue, and then light blue. And the two are very different.
I think now we have 3 blues? Conservatives, Bloc Quebecois, People's Party of Canada? I look at PPC and think it should be super far left wing from the name. Instead it is super far right wing. Maxime Bernier is an idiot and a sore loser. Not to mention stupid enough to be a security risk, as he has already demonstrated.
Hmm, we are missing yellow and purple.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 31, 2021, 07:59:02 PM
FTFY
Or ourpaperplastic money.
It's been a couple years since I've even seen a bill. Do we still make that stuff, or has everyone else gone digital?
We still make it. Bills in New Zealand and Australia look a bit like ours. We actually print New Zealand's currency. I felt right at home handling currency while in those countries - I had to learn what colour was what, but the concept felt comfortable.
I love coloured currency, easy to sort at a glance. Americans may laugh at us, but we will never mistake a $10 for a $100. And of course we can't mistake a $1 for a $10. ;-)
Post by: dougules on November 01, 2021, 01:13:08 AM
FTFY
Or ourpaperplastic money.
It's been a couple years since I've even seen a bill. Do we still make that stuff, or has everyone else gone digital?
We still make it. Bills in New Zealand and Australia look a bit like ours. We actually print New Zealand's currency. I felt right at home handling currency while in those countries - I had to learn what colour was what, but the concept felt comfortable.
I love coloured currency, easy to sort at a glance. Americans may laugh at us, but we will never mistake a $10 for a $100. And of course we can't mistake a $1 for a $10. ;-)
Green money has kind of become our brand. I just wish they'd take out that nasty peach shading they've been putting in as an anti-counterfeit measure.
Post by: evme on November 01, 2021, 01:51:57 AM
In states like this, the logical thing to do is to register for the party you like THE LEAST.
Why?
Because you might have some favorites, but most candidates from the party you like will probably be good enough.
But your moderating vote in the primary election for the opposition candidate will help weed out the cray-cray candidates from the other party.
That's a great idea, which I think I shall now do. I hope more people do this. In fact I would like to see some kind of campaign to do this on a massive scale to really have some major influence.
Post by: Metalcat on November 01, 2021, 03:59:34 AM
Plus, there’s blue, and then light blue. And the two are very different.
I think now we have 3 blues? Conservatives, Bloc Quebecois, People's Party of Canada? I look at PPC and think it should be super far left wing from the name. Instead it is super far right wing. Maxime Bernier is an idiot and a sore loser. Not to mention stupid enough to be a security risk, as he has already demonstrated.
Hmm, we are missing yellow and purple.
The Communist party, oops, I mean the PPC are purple.
We did have a yellow federal party in QC for years, the Lemon Party, which was a very popular satire party like the Rhinoceros Party.
Post by: nereo on November 01, 2021, 04:06:21 AM
.
I love coloured currency, easy to sort at a glance. Americans may laugh at us, but we will never mistake a $10 for a $100. And of course we can't mistake a $1 for a $10. ;-)
For the most part I like the physical aspects of Canadian currency (plus newly minted bills smell like maple syrup for some reason). But I’ve never once mistaken a US bill for a different denomination - it’s value is literally written in 10 different places and on both sides.
But I so infrequently carry or use cash in either country it’s pretty much a non-issue.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on November 01, 2021, 06:32:47 AM
Plus, there’s blue, and then light blue. And the two are very different.
I think now we have 3 blues? Conservatives, Bloc Quebecois, People's Party of Canada? I look at PPC and think it should be super far left wing from the name. Instead it is super far right wing. Maxime Bernier is an idiot and a sore loser. Not to mention stupid enough to be a security risk, as he has already demonstrated.
Hmm, we are missing yellow and purple.
The Communist party, oops, I mean the PPC are purple.
We did have a yellow federal party in QC for years, the Lemon Party, which was a very popular satire party like the Rhinoceros Party.
I lived in Quebec for decades, how did I miss the Lemon Party? (rhetorical question)
I knew the PPC were a dark blue, but didn't realize they had shaded over to purple.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on November 01, 2021, 06:34:17 AM
.
I love coloured currency, easy to sort at a glance. Americans may laugh at us, but we will never mistake a $10 for a $100. And of course we can't mistake a $1 for a $10. ;-)
For the most part I like the physical aspects of Canadian currency (plus newly minted bills smell like maple syrup for some reason). But I’ve never once mistaken a US bill for a different denomination - it’s value is literally written in 10 different places and on both sides.
With coloured money you don't even need to look at the face of the bill, you take the bill out of your wallet based on the edge colour. Yes we are
Post by: Metalcat on November 01, 2021, 06:41:36 AM
Plus, there’s blue, and then light blue. And the two are very different.
I think now we have 3 blues? Conservatives, Bloc Quebecois, People's Party of Canada? I look at PPC and think it should be super far left wing from the name. Instead it is super far right wing. Maxime Bernier is an idiot and a sore loser. Not to mention stupid enough to be a security risk, as he has already demonstrated.
Hmm, we are missing yellow and purple.
The Communist party, oops, I mean the PPC are purple.
We did have a yellow federal party in QC for years, the Lemon Party, which was a very popular satire party like the Rhinoceros Party.
I lived in Quebec for decades, how did I miss the Lemon Party? (rhetorical question)
I knew the PPC were a dark blue, but didn't realize they had shaded over to purple.
Apparently they're totally inconsistent with their colouring, ranging from dark navy to bright purple. All the election signs I saw were purple, so I assumed that was their colour, but you're right, apparently it's dark blue??
I don't know how you missed the Lemon Party, they were great in the 90s. Tons of people in my small town had Lemon Party license plates.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on November 01, 2021, 08:47:05 AM
Plus, there’s blue, and then light blue. And the two are very different.
I think now we have 3 blues? Conservatives, Bloc Quebecois, People's Party of Canada? I look at PPC and think it should be super far left wing from the name. Instead it is super far right wing. Maxime Bernier is an idiot and a sore loser. Not to mention stupid enough to be a security risk, as he has already demonstrated.
Hmm, we are missing yellow and purple.
The Communist party, oops, I mean the PPC are purple.
We did have a yellow federal party in QC for years, the Lemon Party, which was a very popular satire party like the Rhinoceros Party.
I lived in Quebec for decades, how did I miss the Lemon Party? (rhetorical question)
I knew the PPC were a dark blue, but didn't realize they had shaded over to purple.
Apparently they're totally inconsistent with their colouring, ranging from dark navy to bright purple. All the election signs I saw were purple, so I assumed that was their colour, but you're right, apparently it's dark blue??
I don't know how you missed the Lemon Party, they were great in the 90s. Tons of people in my small town had Lemon Party license plates.
Hmm, 90's I had a full time job plus a house in the country (so long commute), a husband, a small child and no media life. I think I would have noticed license plates?
Post by: dandarc on November 01, 2021, 08:56:58 AM
Post by: nereo on November 01, 2021, 09:25:46 AM
What I'm taking from this is that if your parents believe fake news you need to try and redirect their attention to Canadian politics - far more complex than any conspiracy theory, and also benign.
This can be a double-edged sword. I've got one in-law who is deep in the QAnon rabbit hole and she constantly sends me stories about how Quebec is being run by Sharia Law and how we can't let it spread across the border into the US. That and there's a giant computer registry that determines when you are no longer of benefit to the province and then they kill you via the single-payer healthcare system (i guess by giving you poison instead of your meds? the mechanisms are a bit fuzzy to me).
Oh, and Justin is not really a politician but an actor (pretty face) selected by a private company in what was basically a talent search to appear non-threatening to foreign allies, but has no power. In reality they are advancing their more sinister plots.
Also, the maple blight which is wiping out trees throughout new england is engineered by a Quebec lab to grab market share of maple syrup.
Yeah... these are all things she has told me in absolute certainty.
Post by: ixtap on November 01, 2021, 09:33:24 AM
Post by: dandarc on November 01, 2021, 09:34:00 AM
Post by: sonofsven on November 01, 2021, 09:42:31 AM
What I'm taking from this is that if your parents believe fake news you need to try and redirect their attention to Canadian politics - far more complex than any conspiracy theory, and also benign.
This can be a double-edged sword. I've got one in-law who is deep in the QAnon rabbit hole and she constantly sends me stories about how Quebec is being run by Sharia Law and how we can't let it spread across the border into the US. That and there's a giant computer registry that determines when you are no longer of benefit to the province and then they kill you via the single-payer healthcare system (i guess by giving you poison instead of your meds? the mechanisms are a bit fuzzy to me).
Oh, and Justin is not really a politician but an actor (pretty face) selected by a private company in what was basically a talent search to appear non-threatening to foreign allies, but has no power. In reality they are advancing their more sinister plots.
Also, the maple blight which is wiping out trees throughout new england is engineered by a Quebec lab to grab market share of maple syrup.
Yeah... these are all things she has told me in absolute certainty.
SyrupGate.
Post by: Metalcat on November 01, 2021, 09:44:53 AM
What I'm taking from this is that if your parents believe fake news you need to try and redirect their attention to Canadian politics - far more complex than any conspiracy theory, and also benign.
This can be a double-edged sword. I've got one in-law who is deep in the QAnon rabbit hole and she constantly sends me stories about how Quebec is being run by Sharia Law and how we can't let it spread across the border into the US. That and there's a giant computer registry that determines when you are no longer of benefit to the province and then they kill you via the single-payer healthcare system (i guess by giving you poison instead of your meds? the mechanisms are a bit fuzzy to me).
Oh, and Justin is not really a politician but an actor (pretty face) selected by a private company in what was basically a talent search to appear non-threatening to foreign allies, but has no power. In reality they are advancing their more sinister plots.
Also, the maple blight which is wiping out trees throughout new england is engineered by a Quebec lab to grab market share of maple syrup.
Yeah... these are all things she has told me in absolute certainty.
Oh yeah, we have a certain proportion of the population that is CONVINCED that the government is trying to slowly convert the entire country to Sharia law.
Why??? I...I...don't really understand that part, the explanations I get are never very consistent, but the proclamations that it's happening and people just don't see it are pretty harmonious among the various lunatics who spout this nonsense.
See, we too in Canada have some very effective alt-right news media, it's just not as mainstream in most parts of the country as it is in the US, but it's getting more and more popular.
Most of the people I know who follow it also watch Fox News as their main daily news source, so you get the idea of what kind of information these people are seeking out.
I think there's a certain breed of person who gets addicted to feeling constantly terrified.
Post by: dandarc on November 01, 2021, 09:48:41 AM
<snip>The name of the series is failing me, but back in 2018 I remember watching an hour-long documentary on Netflix about an 8 figure maple syrup theft that actually happened in Canada a decade or two prior. Remember the year I was watching mainly because I was at an airBnB across the street from the office training for the new job I had just taken. The best conspiracy theories have a grain of truth to the core.
SyrupGate.
Post by: nereo on November 01, 2021, 09:54:26 AM
<snip>The name of the series is failing me, but back in 2018 I remember watching an hour-long documentary on Netflix about an 8 figure maple syrup theft that actually happened in Canada a decade or two prior. Remember the year I was watching mainly because I was at an airBnB across the street from the office training for the new job I had just taken. The best conspiracy theories have a grain of truth to the core.
SyrupGate.
Oh, the Quebec Maple Syrup Heist was a very real thing, and involved tanker-trucks filled with maple syrup worth close to $20MM and at least a dozen conspirators.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Canadian_Maple_Syrup_Heist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Canadian_Maple_Syrup_Heist)
Post by: dandarc on November 01, 2021, 09:58:27 AM
Yeah - heist was real, gives a little bit of credence to "Quebec is poisoning Vermont's maple trees" which I suspect is not true.<snip>The name of the series is failing me, but back in 2018 I remember watching an hour-long documentary on Netflix about an 8 figure maple syrup theft that actually happened in Canada a decade or two prior. Remember the year I was watching mainly because I was at an airBnB across the street from the office training for the new job I had just taken. The best conspiracy theories have a grain of truth to the core.
SyrupGate.
Oh, the Quebec Maple Syrup Heist was a very real thing, and involved tanker-trucks filled with maple syrup worth close to $20MM and at least a dozen conspirators.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Canadian_Maple_Syrup_Heist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Canadian_Maple_Syrup_Heist)
Post by: GuitarStv on November 01, 2021, 10:00:27 AM
What I'm taking from this is that if your parents believe fake news you need to try and redirect their attention to Canadian politics - far more complex than any conspiracy theory, and also benign.
This can be a double-edged sword. I've got one in-law who is deep in the QAnon rabbit hole and she constantly sends me stories about how Quebec is being run by Sharia Law and how we can't let it spread across the border into the US. That and there's a giant computer registry that determines when you are no longer of benefit to the province and then they kill you via the single-payer healthcare system (i guess by giving you poison instead of your meds? the mechanisms are a bit fuzzy to me).
Oh, and Justin is not really a politician but an actor (pretty face) selected by a private company in what was basically a talent search to appear non-threatening to foreign allies, but has no power. In reality they are advancing their more sinister plots.
Also, the maple blight which is wiping out trees throughout new england is engineered by a Quebec lab to grab market share of maple syrup.
Yeah... these are all things she has told me in absolute certainty.
Oh yeah, we have a certain proportion of the population that is CONVINCED that the government is trying to slowly convert the entire country to Sharia law.
Why??? I...I...don't really understand that part, the explanations I get are never very consistent, but the proclamations that it's happening and people just don't see it are pretty harmonious among the various lunatics who spout this nonsense.
See, we too in Canada have some very effective alt-right news media, it's just not as mainstream in most parts of the country as it is in the US, but it's getting more and more popular.
Most of the people I know who follow it also watch Fox News as their main daily news source, so you get the idea of what kind of information these people are seeking out.
I think there's a certain breed of person who gets addicted to feeling constantly terrified.
Quebec does have a long standing tradition of injecting religion into governmental policy. Just not Muslim religion . . .
Post by: wenchsenior on November 01, 2021, 10:53:01 AM
FTFY
Or ourpaperplastic money.
It's been a couple years since I've even seen a bill. Do we still make that stuff, or has everyone else gone digital?
We still make it. Bills in New Zealand and Australia look a bit like ours. We actually print New Zealand's currency. I felt right at home handling currency while in those countries - I had to learn what colour was what, but the concept felt comfortable.
I love coloured currency, easy to sort at a glance. Americans may laugh at us, but we will never mistake a $10 for a $100. And of course we can't mistake a $1 for a $10. ;-)
I would never laugh. I ADORED handling the money on our trip to Australia. So pretty.
Post by: Kris on November 01, 2021, 11:05:12 AM
What I'm taking from this is that if your parents believe fake news you need to try and redirect their attention to Canadian politics - far more complex than any conspiracy theory, and also benign.
This can be a double-edged sword. I've got one in-law who is deep in the QAnon rabbit hole and she constantly sends me stories about how Quebec is being run by Sharia Law and how we can't let it spread across the border into the US. That and there's a giant computer registry that determines when you are no longer of benefit to the province and then they kill you via the single-payer healthcare system (i guess by giving you poison instead of your meds? the mechanisms are a bit fuzzy to me).
Oh, and Justin is not really a politician but an actor (pretty face) selected by a private company in what was basically a talent search to appear non-threatening to foreign allies, but has no power. In reality they are advancing their more sinister plots.
Also, the maple blight which is wiping out trees throughout new england is engineered by a Quebec lab to grab market share of maple syrup.
Yeah... these are all things she has told me in absolute certainty.
Yeah, this is part of the problem with people who are deeply susceptible to conspiracy theory rabbit holes and who also never travel outside of a sixty mile radius of their homes. Lord, the number of conservatives I know who swallowed Trump's and Fox's claims that Paris has become basically nothing but a city of lawless "no-go zones" was... amazing. And tellingly, none of them had ever been to Paris. Huh, imagine that.
Post by: OtherJen on November 01, 2021, 11:14:31 AM
What I'm taking from this is that if your parents believe fake news you need to try and redirect their attention to Canadian politics - far more complex than any conspiracy theory, and also benign.
This can be a double-edged sword. I've got one in-law who is deep in the QAnon rabbit hole and she constantly sends me stories about how Quebec is being run by Sharia Law and how we can't let it spread across the border into the US. That and there's a giant computer registry that determines when you are no longer of benefit to the province and then they kill you via the single-payer healthcare system (i guess by giving you poison instead of your meds? the mechanisms are a bit fuzzy to me).
Oh, and Justin is not really a politician but an actor (pretty face) selected by a private company in what was basically a talent search to appear non-threatening to foreign allies, but has no power. In reality they are advancing their more sinister plots.
Also, the maple blight which is wiping out trees throughout new england is engineered by a Quebec lab to grab market share of maple syrup.
Yeah... these are all things she has told me in absolute certainty.
Yeah, this is part of the problem with people who are deeply susceptible to conspiracy theory rabbit holes and who also never travel outside of a sixty mile radius of their homes. Lord, the number of conservatives I know who swallowed Trump's and Fox's claims that Paris has become basically nothing but a city of lawless "no-go zones" was... amazing. And tellingly, none of them had ever been to Paris. Huh, imagine that.
According to Fox News and the right-wing conspiracy network, my hometown has been so overtaken by sharia that the entire community of 110K residents is a no-go zone to non-Muslims, all of the street signs are now only in Arabic, Christianity isn't allowed, and women can't walk around without their hair covered. That was certainly news to my parents and various other relatives and friends of all faiths and genders who live there, and certainly to the various church communities of all denominations that hold worship services within city limits. The ridiculousness would be humorous if it wasn't often harmful.
Post by: Metalcat on November 01, 2021, 12:28:12 PM
What I'm taking from this is that if your parents believe fake news you need to try and redirect their attention to Canadian politics - far more complex than any conspiracy theory, and also benign.
This can be a double-edged sword. I've got one in-law who is deep in the QAnon rabbit hole and she constantly sends me stories about how Quebec is being run by Sharia Law and how we can't let it spread across the border into the US. That and there's a giant computer registry that determines when you are no longer of benefit to the province and then they kill you via the single-payer healthcare system (i guess by giving you poison instead of your meds? the mechanisms are a bit fuzzy to me).
Oh, and Justin is not really a politician but an actor (pretty face) selected by a private company in what was basically a talent search to appear non-threatening to foreign allies, but has no power. In reality they are advancing their more sinister plots.
Also, the maple blight which is wiping out trees throughout new england is engineered by a Quebec lab to grab market share of maple syrup.
Yeah... these are all things she has told me in absolute certainty.
Yeah, this is part of the problem with people who are deeply susceptible to conspiracy theory rabbit holes and who also never travel outside of a sixty mile radius of their homes. Lord, the number of conservatives I know who swallowed Trump's and Fox's claims that Paris has become basically nothing but a city of lawless "no-go zones" was... amazing. And tellingly, none of them had ever been to Paris. Huh, imagine that.
According to Fox News and the right-wing conspiracy network, my hometown has been so overtaken by sharia that the entire community of 110K residents is a no-go zone to non-Muslims, all of the street signs are now only in Arabic, Christianity isn't allowed, and women can't walk around without their hair covered. That was certainly news to my parents and various other relatives and friends of all faiths and genders who live there, and certainly to the various church communities of all denominations that hold worship services within city limits. The ridiculousness would be humorous if it wasn't often harmful.
My god the right wing are amazing at their labels of things that aren't actually things.
"No go" Muslim zones in perfectly functional cities, "death panels" in countries with government funded medicine, Sharia Law taking over Canada's legal system (seriously???), etc, etc
It's kind of amazing when you look at it without the bitter taste of horror and despair.
Post by: OtherJen on November 01, 2021, 12:52:28 PM
What I'm taking from this is that if your parents believe fake news you need to try and redirect their attention to Canadian politics - far more complex than any conspiracy theory, and also benign.
This can be a double-edged sword. I've got one in-law who is deep in the QAnon rabbit hole and she constantly sends me stories about how Quebec is being run by Sharia Law and how we can't let it spread across the border into the US. That and there's a giant computer registry that determines when you are no longer of benefit to the province and then they kill you via the single-payer healthcare system (i guess by giving you poison instead of your meds? the mechanisms are a bit fuzzy to me).
Oh, and Justin is not really a politician but an actor (pretty face) selected by a private company in what was basically a talent search to appear non-threatening to foreign allies, but has no power. In reality they are advancing their more sinister plots.
Also, the maple blight which is wiping out trees throughout new england is engineered by a Quebec lab to grab market share of maple syrup.
Yeah... these are all things she has told me in absolute certainty.
Yeah, this is part of the problem with people who are deeply susceptible to conspiracy theory rabbit holes and who also never travel outside of a sixty mile radius of their homes. Lord, the number of conservatives I know who swallowed Trump's and Fox's claims that Paris has become basically nothing but a city of lawless "no-go zones" was... amazing. And tellingly, none of them had ever been to Paris. Huh, imagine that.
According to Fox News and the right-wing conspiracy network, my hometown has been so overtaken by sharia that the entire community of 110K residents is a no-go zone to non-Muslims, all of the street signs are now only in Arabic, Christianity isn't allowed, and women can't walk around without their hair covered. That was certainly news to my parents and various other relatives and friends of all faiths and genders who live there, and certainly to the various church communities of all denominations that hold worship services within city limits. The ridiculousness would be humorous if it wasn't often harmful.
My god the right wing are amazing at their labels of things that aren't actually things.
"No go" Muslim zones in perfectly functional cities, "death panels" in countries with government funded medicine, Sharia Law taking over Canada's legal system (seriously???), etc, etc
It's kind of amazing when you look at it without the bitter taste of horror and despair.
Yep. The lies are incredible, and even when presented with facts, they double down on their lies.
Post by: Poundwise on November 01, 2021, 03:11:01 PM
Yeah, this is part of the problem with people who are deeply susceptible to conspiracy theory rabbit holes and who also never travel outside of a sixty mile radius of their homes. Lord, the number of conservatives I know who swallowed Trump's and Fox's claims that Paris has become basically nothing but a city of lawless "no-go zones" was... amazing. And tellingly, none of them had ever been to Paris. Huh, imagine that.
Could the answer be as simple as taking one's parents on a trip to Paris, Montreal, NYC, or Seattle? And enjoying a peaceful stroll to a bakery and an excellent cup of coffee?
Post by: Plina on November 01, 2021, 03:20:00 PM
What I'm taking from this is that if your parents believe fake news you need to try and redirect their attention to Canadian politics - far more complex than any conspiracy theory, and also benign.
This can be a double-edged sword. I've got one in-law who is deep in the QAnon rabbit hole and she constantly sends me stories about how Quebec is being run by Sharia Law and how we can't let it spread across the border into the US. That and there's a giant computer registry that determines when you are no longer of benefit to the province and then they kill you via the single-payer healthcare system (i guess by giving you poison instead of your meds? the mechanisms are a bit fuzzy to me).
Oh, and Justin is not really a politician but an actor (pretty face) selected by a private company in what was basically a talent search to appear non-threatening to foreign allies, but has no power. In reality they are advancing their more sinister plots.
Also, the maple blight which is wiping out trees throughout new england is engineered by a Quebec lab to grab market share of maple syrup.
Yeah... these are all things she has told me in absolute certainty.
Yeah, this is part of the problem with people who are deeply susceptible to conspiracy theory rabbit holes and who also never travel outside of a sixty mile radius of their homes. Lord, the number of conservatives I know who swallowed Trump's and Fox's claims that Paris has become basically nothing but a city of lawless "no-go zones" was... amazing. And tellingly, none of them had ever been to Paris. Huh, imagine that.
According to Fox News and the right-wing conspiracy network, my hometown has been so overtaken by sharia that the entire community of 110K residents is a no-go zone to non-Muslims, all of the street signs are now only in Arabic, Christianity isn't allowed, and women can't walk around without their hair covered. That was certainly news to my parents and various other relatives and friends of all faiths and genders who live there, and certainly to the various church communities of all denominations that hold worship services within city limits. The ridiculousness would be humorous if it wasn't often harmful.
My god the right wing are amazing at their labels of things that aren't actually things.
"No go" Muslim zones in perfectly functional cities, "death panels" in countries with government funded medicine, Sharia Law taking over Canada's legal system (seriously???), etc, etc
It's kind of amazing when you look at it without the bitter taste of horror and despair.
I find it kind of amusing. It is kind of like following a bizarr movie. These people have a really good imagination. But I guess I would not find it as amusing if I had it in my family. Personally, I find it difficult to see how politics could split a family. I don’t even know what my family vote but we have several more or less bad parties to choose between.
Post by: Kris on November 01, 2021, 03:34:24 PM
Yeah, this is part of the problem with people who are deeply susceptible to conspiracy theory rabbit holes and who also never travel outside of a sixty mile radius of their homes. Lord, the number of conservatives I know who swallowed Trump's and Fox's claims that Paris has become basically nothing but a city of lawless "no-go zones" was... amazing. And tellingly, none of them had ever been to Paris. Huh, imagine that.
Could the answer be as simple as taking one's parents on a trip to Paris, Montreal, NYC, or Seattle? And enjoying a peaceful stroll to a bakery and an excellent cup of coffee?
Doubtful. I mean, when has actual evidence convinced someone who is firmly committed to not seeing it?
Post by: BicycleB on November 01, 2021, 03:43:46 PM
It seems like a really intense disease or something these days. Glad that the family members I'm in touch with are so far unaffected, but with much sympathy for those not so lucky.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on November 01, 2021, 03:54:25 PM
Yeah, this is part of the problem with people who are deeply susceptible to conspiracy theory rabbit holes and who also never travel outside of a sixty mile radius of their homes. Lord, the number of conservatives I know who swallowed Trump's and Fox's claims that Paris has become basically nothing but a city of lawless "no-go zones" was... amazing. And tellingly, none of them had ever been to Paris. Huh, imagine that.
Could the answer be as simple as taking one's parents on a trip to Paris, Montreal, NYC, or Seattle? And enjoying a peaceful stroll to a bakery and an excellent cup of coffee?
Doubtful. I mean, when has actual evidence convinced someone who is firmly committed to not seeing it?
I can confirm. Direct evidence is not sufficient. They think "Im a covid denier and I caught covid - Fake new. The doctors are lieing to me to cover up the big scam." There is a reddit where people are dieing of covid and still denying it exist even as they are in the hospital on respirators.
My parents were at the January 6th rally and watched from the barricades. Their story is that the Antifa did everything to make trumpers look bad. Additionally they claim the police opened the barricades and the doors and motioned the crowds to come in. The video evidence you ask? FAKE NEWS - Its a deep fake.
The pizzagate guy was pretty convinced they had just moved the kids and covered up the basement before he got there I think. Direct evidence is not enough. Im not sure what is. Which is the point of the thread.
Post by: Metalcat on November 01, 2021, 04:21:46 PM
The testimony of Canadians about the spreading variants of bizarre conspiracy theories there is more troubling than reassuring. Part of me wonders if there's an understandable reason that this kind of thing is natively self generating. But another part wonders if, well, there's actually a conspiracy - a crafty team of Russian disinformation artists or something, succeeding brilliantly at their assigned task of disrupting Western democracy.
It seems like a really intense disease or something these days. Glad that the family members I'm in touch with are so far unaffected, but with much sympathy for those not so lucky.
That's not a conspiracy, that's a well documented fact with totally rational motivations behind it.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on November 01, 2021, 05:49:29 PM
The testimony of Canadians about the spreading variants of bizarre conspiracy theories there is more troubling than reassuring. Part of me wonders if there's an understandable reason that this kind of thing is natively self generating. But another part wonders if, well, there's actually a conspiracy - a crafty team of Russian disinformation artists or something, succeeding brilliantly at their assigned task of disrupting Western democracy.
It seems like a really intense disease or something these days. Glad that the family members I'm in touch with are so far unaffected, but with much sympathy for those not so lucky.
That's not a conspiracy, that's a well documented fact with totally rational motivations behind it.
FWIW - My mom thinks Putin is a great guy and he's one of the "good" people fighting against evil in the world alongside trump.
No ability to process the concept of foreign interference with public opinion.
Post by: Metalcat on November 01, 2021, 06:30:03 PM
The testimony of Canadians about the spreading variants of bizarre conspiracy theories there is more troubling than reassuring. Part of me wonders if there's an understandable reason that this kind of thing is natively self generating. But another part wonders if, well, there's actually a conspiracy - a crafty team of Russian disinformation artists or something, succeeding brilliantly at their assigned task of disrupting Western democracy.
It seems like a really intense disease or something these days. Glad that the family members I'm in touch with are so far unaffected, but with much sympathy for those not so lucky.
That's not a conspiracy, that's a well documented fact with totally rational motivations behind it.
FWIW - My mom thinks Putin is a great guy and he's one of the "good" people fighting against evil in the world alongside trump.
No ability to process the concept of foreign interference with public opinion.
Well the people of Russia are so happy, healthy, and have such good access to food, water, heat, medicine, safety, electricity, roads, etc. Putin has been just so great for the people of Russia.
If only there were more effective world leaders like him.
*Sigh*
Post by: Sandi_k on November 02, 2021, 07:56:26 AM
Personally, I find it difficult to see how politics could split a family. I don’t even know what my family vote but we have several more or less bad parties to choose between.
Then you lack reading skills.
Many of us have frail elderly parents and grandparents, and the whack-a-doos are refusing to be vaccinated, and then trumpeting FAMILY!! when planning the holidays.
We chose to absent ourselves last year, due to no vaccine and the imagined horror of bringing a deadly virus to our loved ones.
Unfortunately, the whack-a-doos have no imagination, and no conscience.
Post by: boarder42 on November 02, 2021, 08:06:57 AM
I think it's important to note that in some U.S. states, in the primary election (in the spring), you can only vote in races between people of the party you're registered to.
Internationally, attention is given to our presidential elections. In the spring, a bunch of Republican and and Democratic candidates get whittled down to just 1-2 by midsummer. I live in a state where only registered Republicans can vote on the Republican primary and choose which presidential candidate they want to represent their party, and same for Democrats. People not registered to the 2 big parties can vote for a 3rd party candidate if they're registered with that party, or if you're not registered with any party you don't get to vote in that primary race, and wait until fall to choose between whatever the options are that other people decide. That leads a lot of people to register with the party they most align with. Other states have other rules.
In states like this, the logical thing to do is to register for the party you like THE LEAST.
Why?
Because you might have some favorites, but most candidates from the party you like will probably be good enough.
But your moderating vote in the primary election for the opposition candidate will help weed out the cray-cray candidates from the other party.
agreed fortunately i live in a state where i can request a primary ballot from either party so this is the strategy i follow. the republican is getting elected 99% of the time so i vote republican in primaries. ITS REALLY FUCKING DUMB to not let us vote across the board for candidates in all primaries and leads to the bipartisan system we have now. Otherwise you would end up with a bunch more middle of the road willing to work together moderates in there over time
Post by: Sibley on November 02, 2021, 08:09:11 AM
Personally, I find it difficult to see how politics could split a family. I don’t even know what my family vote but we have several more or less bad parties to choose between.
Really? It happens all the time. Wishful thinking may make you feel better, but its not reality.
The American Civil War is called the war of brother against brother. Plenty of instances throughout documented history where families split over politics, or religion. The specific political parties or platforms change, but the theme is as old as civilization.
Post by: boarder42 on November 02, 2021, 08:09:51 AM
Personally, I find it difficult to see how politics could split a family. I don’t even know what my family vote but we have several more or less bad parties to choose between.
Then you lack reading skills.
Many of us have frail elderly parents and grandparents, and the whack-a-doos are refusing to be vaccinated, and then trumpeting FAMILY!! when planning the holidays.
We chose to absent ourselves last year, due to no vaccine and the imagined horror of bringing a deadly virus to our loved ones.
Unfortunately, the whack-a-doos have no imagination, and no conscience.
yeah my parents host a family thanksgiving, this year they are foregoing due to people not vaxed in the family.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on November 02, 2021, 08:19:44 AM
Personally, I find it difficult to see how politics could split a family. I don’t even know what my family vote but we have several more or less bad parties to choose between.
Really? It happens all the time. Wishful thinking may make you feel better, but its not reality.
The American Civil War is called the war of brother against brother. Plenty of instances throughout documented history where families split over politics, or religion. The specific political parties or platforms change, but the theme is as old as civilization.
Something I missed until my adult life and didn't pick up in school was the amount of people who really really didn't want to participate in the civil war but were forced to through draft and other measures. I guess the same with the revolutionary war as well, it never occurred to me that so many people were very happy with the way things were.
It doesn't take many bad actors to make a divisive shit storm of things.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on November 02, 2021, 08:27:29 AM
Personally, I find it difficult to see how politics could split a family. I don’t even know what my family vote but we have several more or less bad parties to choose between.
Really? It happens all the time. Wishful thinking may make you feel better, but its not reality.
The American Civil War is called the war of brother against brother. Plenty of instances throughout documented history where families split over politics, or religion. The specific political parties or platforms change, but the theme is as old as civilization.
Something I missed until my adult life and didn't pick up in school was the amount of people who really really didn't want to participate in the civil war but were forced to through draft and other measures. I guess the same with the revolutionary war as well, it never occurred to me that so many people were very happy with the way things were.
It doesn't take many bad actors to make a divisive shit storm of things.
What I have read is for the revolutionary war the split was 1/3 against, 1/3 for, 1/3 didn't care. The ones who were against made part of Canadian history - they were the United Empire Loyalists. The ones living on the coast were evacuated to the Bahamas/Bermuda (not sure of the details) and Nova Scotia (what is now New Brunswick), and the ones inland walked to what are now Quebec (the Eastern Townships) and Ontario (especially the Niagara region). Laura Secord of War of 1812-14 fame was from a family that did the walk, as was her husband, Thomas Secord. My great-grandmother's family was part of the coastal refugees, they settled in St. John, NB.
Post by: Just Joe on November 02, 2021, 09:15:35 AM
Ugh. So why are you going?
Family. Aged family. We drop in for a few hours, etc. We get along but see external topics very, very different.
Surprisingly the visit was better than expected. No terrible reality TV. Got our dose of live TV to reminding us live TV is a time wasting bundle of lousy advertising. Just how invasive advertising is.
We stayed away from the hot topics like politics. I think they were happy enough to see us that they respectful of our differences. Didn't go there.
I think the number one thing that would do them good would be to switch off the TV and social media - and busy themselves with a book or a walk or anything else. Perhaps listen to music - but not commercial radio.
Post by: chaskavitch on November 02, 2021, 09:18:56 AM
<snip>The name of the series is failing me, but back in 2018 I remember watching an hour-long documentary on Netflix about an 8 figure maple syrup theft that actually happened in Canada a decade or two prior. Remember the year I was watching mainly because I was at an airBnB across the street from the office training for the new job I had just taken. The best conspiracy theories have a grain of truth to the core.
SyrupGate.
I'm guessing Dirty Money on Netflix. There was definitely an episode about this. It was a pretty good series!
Post by: talltexan on November 02, 2021, 09:27:50 AM
Yeah, this is part of the problem with people who are deeply susceptible to conspiracy theory rabbit holes and who also never travel outside of a sixty mile radius of their homes. Lord, the number of conservatives I know who swallowed Trump's and Fox's claims that Paris has become basically nothing but a city of lawless "no-go zones" was... amazing. And tellingly, none of them had ever been to Paris. Huh, imagine that.
Could the answer be as simple as taking one's parents on a trip to Paris, Montreal, NYC, or Seattle? And enjoying a peaceful stroll to a bakery and an excellent cup of coffee?
Doubtful. I mean, when has actual evidence convinced someone who is firmly committed to not seeing it?
My parents were at the January 6th rally and watched from the barricades. Their story is that the Antifa did everything to make trumpers look bad. Additionally they claim the police opened the barricades and the doors and motioned the crowds to come in. The video evidence you ask? FAKE NEWS - Its a deep fake.
The Washington Post just released more on this. They even interviewed a woman who said Antifa was whipping up the crowd, and posted it alongside video of that same woman using a mega phone to urge the crowd forward.
Post by: DadJokes on November 02, 2021, 09:28:37 AM
He wants to know what happened to avoiding politics and religion in polite company.
Me too. I've told my father-in-law that I have no interest in discussing politics on multiple occasions, but he continues to bring them up every chance he gets. Even if I agreed with his views, I still would have no interest in discussing them.
I wonder if it's a product of being in an area where 75% of the population has the same views. They just naturally assume that everyone agrees with them, so why not discuss it?
Post by: SwordGuy on November 02, 2021, 09:47:28 AM
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4571982 (https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4571982)
Post by: elaine amj on November 02, 2021, 10:13:48 AM
Despite my best efforts, she soon started ranting about covid and the vaccine mandates and is vehemently antivax. As we talked further, it turns out she is deeply distrustful of the govt and of everything they say and do. Seems like that's the core of this whole antivax thing.
After the conversation, I mentioned to my husband - imagine how her mind would be blown if she lived in a country where corruption is so blatant you truly, honestly CANNOT trust the government? I grew up in Asia. It's just life there. Americans just don't know how good they have it.
At least there are checks and balances in the system. And if someone is outed, they actually do go to jail. And stay there.
Sent from my VCE-AL00 using Tapatalk
Post by: BicycleB on November 02, 2021, 10:27:24 AM
I find it difficult to see how politics could split a family. I don’t even know what my family vote but we have several more or less bad parties to choose between.
I'm glad you live in a place where it's hard to imagine.
I did most of my life too, even though twice my country had civil wars where friend fought friend, brother fought brother, due to disagreements that rose to the level of knives and bullets. US Revolutionary War, US Civil War.
At one point, I imagined you yourself lived in Germany. I have supposed that in Germany 1920s-1930s, as in America now, events were sometimes alarming. Had guessed that well meaning friends and family disagreed over the rising heat of politics and the other events of the day. Perhaps those guesses on my part are incorrect. Here in USA, after growing up in a period that seemed peaceful, the shocking turns of mind and the rising divisions between people are confusing and frightening. I hope you never experience it.
Post by: jeninco on November 02, 2021, 10:49:25 AM
Personally, I find it difficult to see how politics could split a family. I don’t even know what my family vote but we have several more or less bad parties to choose between.
Really? It happens all the time. Wishful thinking may make you feel better, but its not reality.
The American Civil War is called the war of brother against brother. Plenty of instances throughout documented history where families split over politics, or religion. The specific political parties or platforms change, but the theme is as old as civilization.
Something I missed until my adult life and didn't pick up in school was the amount of people who really really didn't want to participate in the civil war but were forced to through draft and other measures. I guess the same with the revolutionary war as well, it never occurred to me that so many people were very happy with the way things were.
It doesn't take many bad actors to make a divisive shit storm of things.
What I have read is for the revolutionary war the split was 1/3 against, 1/3 for, 1/3 didn't care. The ones who were against made part of Canadian history - they were the United Empire Loyalists. The ones living on the coast were evacuated to the Bahamas/Bermuda (not sure of the details) and Nova Scotia (what is now New Brunswick), and the ones inland walked to what are now Quebec (the Eastern Townships) and Ontario (especially the Niagara region). Laura Secord of War of 1812-14 fame was from a family that did the walk, as was her husband, Thomas Secord. My great-grandmother's family was part of the coastal refugees, they settled in St. John, NB.
Interesting. One of my Quaker ancestors walked from northern Virginia to ... I think Ohio? ... to avoid being conscripted to fight on "the wrong side" of the Civil War. I'm not surprised that other people have done the same thing at other times.
Post by: Just Joe on November 02, 2021, 11:43:19 AM
Green money has kind of become our brand. I just wish they'd take out that nasty peach shading they've been putting in as an anti-counterfeit measure.
Every time I see new US money have a moment where I assume someone spilled juice on it or something.
Post by: Kris on November 02, 2021, 12:05:17 PM
Green money has kind of become our brand. I just wish they'd take out that nasty peach shading they've been putting in as an anti-counterfeit measure.
Every time I see new US money have a moment where I assume someone spilled juice on it or something.
Yeah, I'm used to it now... but we already had arguably the ugliest money in the world, and now it's just worse.
Post by: Plina on November 02, 2021, 02:50:33 PM
I find it difficult to see how politics could split a family. I don’t even know what my family vote but we have several more or less bad parties to choose between.
I'm glad you live in a place where it's hard to imagine.
I did most of my life too, even though twice my country had civil wars where friend fought friend, brother fought brother, due to disagreements that rose to the level of knives and bullets. US Revolutionary War, US Civil War.
At one point, I imagined you yourself lived in Germany. I have supposed that in Germany 1920s-1930s, as in America now, events were sometimes alarming. Had guessed that well meaning friends and family disagreed over the rising heat of politics and the other events of the day. Perhaps those guesses on my part are incorrect. Here in USA, after growing up in a period that seemed peaceful, the shocking turns of mind and the rising divisions between people are confusing and frightening. I hope you never experience it.
So, am I. Politics is rarely discussed at workplaces or among my family or relatives, at least on a level that could lead to major disagreements. I guess based on some comments that we have different political views. I have friends that are politicans for a party that I don’t support and in some cases strongly disagree with but there are so much other things to talk about. I am not a german.
I think, there is a rising division in many countries but it is more apparent in your country after the Trump years.
Post by: Just Joe on November 02, 2021, 03:08:16 PM
The shear number of websites peddling these conspiracy theories or parroting the message is mind boggling. This phrase was copied from one of the many emails my elder sends me praising the conservative point of view and condemning everyone else. I haven't even bothered to fact check it nor will I.
I imagine someone writes the message and then hundreds if not thousands of websites function as message repeaters - some seem to just be copy and paste repeaters?
Post by: Posthumane on November 02, 2021, 03:50:27 PM
Fast forward to today, he is still refusing to get vaccinated, even though he's in his 60's with multiple co-morbidities. However, now he's facing a job loss because of it as he works in a federally regulated industry. He was asking my advice about whether he should get vaccinated, so I told him to ignore the politics and just look at the medical evidence objectively. He says there's no medical reason to get it (and at one point was convinced the rise in cases and deaths was purely from people getting sick from the vaccine), but only political reasons. So I asked him what the "non-medical" pros and cons of it are. The pros are obvious - being able to travel, go to restaurants, work, etc. For the cons side, he basically equated himself to jews in 1940's warsaw. When queried about why he thinks this situation is similar to that one (as opposed to all of the other times people were mandated to follow various measures) he brought up the Great Reset and the now infamous tweet from the World Economic Forum about owning nothing and being happy, and how getting vaccinated enables this political agenda (somehow). I'm at a loss about how to even talk about this in a rational manner.
Post by: jeninco on November 02, 2021, 05:20:51 PM
A family member has basically run the gamut of opposing theories about covid. At first he was adamant that the Canadian government must close the borders with China because he stopped there on a layover from a trip in Dec 2019 and "knew" that this was coming (even though he didn't mention it to anyone until a month later when China was having an outbreak). Then when the government finally started implementing some measures to control it, he started posting about this being basically no worse than the flu, socialist propaganda to control people, etc.
Fast forward to today, he is still refusing to get vaccinated, even though he's in his 60's with multiple co-morbidities. However, now he's facing a job loss because of it as he works in a federally regulated industry. He was asking my advice about whether he should get vaccinated, so I told him to ignore the politics and just look at the medical evidence objectively. He says there's no medical reason to get it (and at one point was convinced the rise in cases and deaths was purely from people getting sick from the vaccine), but only political reasons. So I asked him what the "non-medical" pros and cons of it are. The pros are obvious - being able to travel, go to restaurants, work, etc. For the cons side, he basically equated himself to jews in 1940's warsaw. When queried about why he thinks this situation is similar to that one (as opposed to all of the other times people were mandated to follow various measures) he brought up the Great Reset and the now infamous tweet from the World Economic Forum about owning nothing and being happy, and how getting vaccinated enables this political agenda (somehow). I'm at a loss about how to even talk about this in a rational manner.
Don't try. He has to get it to keep his job, which gives him reasonable "cover", if you will. Sympathize slightly, and see if he needs a ride home and some soup. But treat it as a done deal, and don't help him get inflamed about it. I suggest "grey rocking" him on this one.
Post by: Posthumane on November 02, 2021, 05:42:09 PM
I had to look up grey rocking, and found that it is generally what I do when he brings up politics and such. I've just recently started responding as he asked me straight out if I think he should get vaccinated, but then proceeded to shoot down any reasons I provided for it. So I just left it as "here's the pros and cons, it's your call, do what you want".
Post by: SwordGuy on November 02, 2021, 06:14:12 PM
... and every family visit will be clouded by not being able to go out to eat anywhere....
When you ground a little kid you yourself can't go out unless you hire a babysitter.
You didn't mention dementia or alzheimers, etc., he's a grown-ass adult, so just let him sit at home alone while everyone else goes out to eat and has a good time.
Your mileage may vary, but I'm just plain sick and tired of mollycoddling these people, so I no longer do so.
Post by: OtherJen on November 03, 2021, 04:00:26 AM
What I'm taking from this is that if your parents believe fake news you need to try and redirect their attention to Canadian politics - far more complex than any conspiracy theory, and also benign.
This can be a double-edged sword. I've got one in-law who is deep in the QAnon rabbit hole and she constantly sends me stories about how Quebec is being run by Sharia Law and how we can't let it spread across the border into the US. That and there's a giant computer registry that determines when you are no longer of benefit to the province and then they kill you via the single-payer healthcare system (i guess by giving you poison instead of your meds? the mechanisms are a bit fuzzy to me).
Oh, and Justin is not really a politician but an actor (pretty face) selected by a private company in what was basically a talent search to appear non-threatening to foreign allies, but has no power. In reality they are advancing their more sinister plots.
Also, the maple blight which is wiping out trees throughout new england is engineered by a Quebec lab to grab market share of maple syrup.
Yeah... these are all things she has told me in absolute certainty.
Yeah, this is part of the problem with people who are deeply susceptible to conspiracy theory rabbit holes and who also never travel outside of a sixty mile radius of their homes. Lord, the number of conservatives I know who swallowed Trump's and Fox's claims that Paris has become basically nothing but a city of lawless "no-go zones" was... amazing. And tellingly, none of them had ever been to Paris. Huh, imagine that.
According to Fox News and the right-wing conspiracy network, my hometown has been so overtaken by sharia that the entire community of 110K residents is a no-go zone to non-Muslims, all of the street signs are now only in Arabic, Christianity isn't allowed, and women can't walk around without their hair covered. That was certainly news to my parents and various other relatives and friends of all faiths and genders who live there, and certainly to the various church communities of all denominations that hold worship services within city limits. The ridiculousness would be humorous if it wasn't often harmful.
My god the right wing are amazing at their labels of things that aren't actually things.
"No go" Muslim zones in perfectly functional cities, "death panels" in countries with government funded medicine, Sharia Law taking over Canada's legal system (seriously???), etc, etc
It's kind of amazing when you look at it without the bitter taste of horror and despair.
Brace yourselves for another wave of anti-Arab/anti-Muslim sentiment. Both my birthplace and the bordering suburb that I now call home elected their first Arab-American and Muslim mayors yesterday. Both men are highly qualified and deeply patriotic Americans: my city's mayor-elect is a former marine who we elected to city council 4 years ago; my birthplace's mayor-elect is finishing up his third term as a state representative. I suspect none of that will matter in the slightest to the bigots who like to scream about sharia.
Post by: ysette9 on November 03, 2021, 11:19:54 AM
Whose religion is working so hard to take away fundamental human rights of women in the US via courts and legislation? It sure isn’t Islam.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on November 03, 2021, 01:08:28 PM
Post by: OtherJen on November 03, 2021, 01:46:16 PM
Things seem very divided right now. I find myself wondering if am just now at an age I notice these things and it's always been this way or this is the worst it's been in a while.
The 24-hour right-wing TV and radio outrage machine has done a lot of damage over the last 30-40 years.
Post by: DadJokes on November 03, 2021, 02:03:46 PM
Things seem very divided right now. I find myself wondering if am just now at an age I notice these things and it's always been this way or this is the worst it's been in a while.
The 24-hourright-wingTV and radio outrage machine has done a lot of damage over the last 30-40 years.
Let's not pretend that CNN & MSNBC aren't also guilty of stirring up outrage for ratings, even if they're not as bad.
Post by: SwordGuy on November 03, 2021, 02:14:09 PM
Things seem very divided right now. I find myself wondering if am just now at an age I notice these things and it's always been this way or this is the worst it's been in a while.
The 24-hourright-wingTV and radio outrage machine has done a lot of damage over the last 30-40 years.
Let's not pretend that CNN & MSNBC aren't also guilty of stirring up outrage for ratings, even if they're not as bad.
At least most of the time the outrage is based on actual outrageous events as opposed to the often imaginary ones detailed by the alt-right.
Post by: OtherJen on November 03, 2021, 02:15:22 PM
Things seem very divided right now. I find myself wondering if am just now at an age I notice these things and it's always been this way or this is the worst it's been in a while.
The 24-hourright-wingTV and radio outrage machine has done a lot of damage over the last 30-40 years.
Let's not pretend that CNN & MSNBC aren't also guilty of stirring up outrage for ratings, even if they're not as bad.
I never said they weren't guilty. I view 24-hour cable news as a bane of humanity. But you have noted that they are not as bad as Fox News, Newsmax, OAN, Breitbart, etc.
Additionally, most of the people in my life (various relatives, friends, and neighbors) who've had their brains hijacked by right-wing conspiracies have been marinating their eyeballs in Fox News et al. and their eardrums in Rush Limbaugh et al. via far-right-wing and "Christian" talk radio for a decade or more. I can't think of similarly inflammatory left-wing sources of manufactured outrage on broadcast radio, but I can certainly find the right-wing versions when I flip on my car radio, both AM and FM.
Post by: aetheldrea on November 03, 2021, 07:58:54 PM
I have never seen (read?) OAN, and I don’t know what the initials stand for. So every time I see it referred to, I think “Onion News Network” whose videos I used to watch in podcast form. I imagine ONN is more firmly based in reality.Things seem very divided right now. I find myself wondering if am just now at an age I notice these things and it's always been this way or this is the worst it's been in a while.
The 24-hourright-wingTV and radio outrage machine has done a lot of damage over the last 30-40 years.
Let's not pretend that CNN & MSNBC aren't also guilty of stirring up outrage for ratings, even if they're not as bad.
I never said they weren't guilty. I view 24-hour cable news as a bane of humanity. But you have noted that they are not as bad as Fox News, Newsmax, OAN, Breitbart, etc.
Additionally, most of the people in my life (various relatives, friends, and neighbors) who've had their brains hijacked by right-wing conspiracies have been marinating their eyeballs in Fox News et al. and their eardrums in Rush Limbaugh et al. via far-right-wing and "Christian" talk radio for a decade or more. I can't think of similarly inflammatory left-wing sources of manufactured outrage on broadcast radio, but I can certainly find the right-wing versions when I flip on my car radio, both AM and FM.
Post by: By the River on November 04, 2021, 08:43:26 AM
Things seem very divided right now. I find myself wondering if am just now at an age I notice these things and it's always been this way or this is the worst it's been in a while.
The 24-hourright-wingTV and radio outrage machine has done a lot of damage over the last 30-40 years.
Let's not pretend that CNN & MSNBC aren't also guilty of stirring up outrage for ratings, even if they're not as bad.
I thought about this thread when I saw this tweet last week...(Nick Sandmann is the Covington high school student who was serially slandered by CNN and others after a Washington march in 2019. He settled a libel case against CNN. I believe that CNN broadcast this at least 4 times and had 9 online articles with the same smear. Several after they had already retracted the original)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBdRcHwm/Capture.jpg)
Post by: OtherJen on November 04, 2021, 08:55:33 AM
'Off the rails': New Tucker Carlson project for Fox embraces conspiracy theories (NPR) (https://www.npr.org/2021/11/03/1051607945/tucker-carlson-fox-news-insurrection-conspiracy-new-show?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_source=facebook.com&fbclid=IwAR0_g3O42zAFxqbMoXKbGJPKbq2LcjcJAIiBBzZfhvfSy7pl09XmjKnKjMo)
Quote
Where Tucker Carlson goes, Fox News and its viewers follow.
The network's top host is now leading them to an examination of the violent January 6 siege of the U.S. Capitol in a three-part series called "Patriot Purge," which released this week on the network's right-wing streaming service Fox Nation.
In the series, Carlson strongly suggests that the insurrection was not orchestrated by Trump's fans but by his foes, including the violent leftist group Antifa and even in the FBI and other national security divisions. He plants the idea that the siege was a "false flag" operation to discredit Trump supporters.
Carlson is promoting the series on his own prime-time show on Fox News — which is the top-rated program in all of cable news — and on the popular Fox & Friends morning show.
"These kinds of conspiracy theories about January 6 used to be relegated to weird blogs and known conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones," says Jared Holt, who monitors extremism on social media for the Atlantic Council's Digital Forensic Research Lab.
Holt argues Carlson is seeking to discredit news reports and court decisions about the siege.
"In a way, you don't need conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones to even exist if Tucker Carlson is going to do the job of conspiracy theorists for them," he says. Holt was among researchers who flagged concerning levels of heated rhetoric ahead of the protests that led to the siege.
Post by: the_fixer on November 04, 2021, 09:22:43 AM
And of course this just popped up in my feed. I probably shouldn't be surprised that husband's long-time friend called him up out of the blue, ostensibly to watch a movie but most likely to debate politics. Said friend binge-watches Fox News to the point that the logo has burned out the corner of his TV screen. They've been friends for nearly 30 years, but husband walked out on a political argument last year rather than engage with insults and conspiracy theories.A friend sent me a link to the trailer and my jaw was on the floor. Shit like that is going to lead to either another civil war or some unhinged people to go off the deep end and start killing people.
'Off the rails': New Tucker Carlson project for Fox embraces conspiracy theories (NPR) (https://www.npr.org/2021/11/03/1051607945/tucker-carlson-fox-news-insurrection-conspiracy-new-show?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_source=facebook.com&fbclid=IwAR0_g3O42zAFxqbMoXKbGJPKbq2LcjcJAIiBBzZfhvfSy7pl09XmjKnKjMo)QuoteWhere Tucker Carlson goes, Fox News and its viewers follow.
The network's top host is now leading them to an examination of the violent January 6 siege of the U.S. Capitol in a three-part series called "Patriot Purge," which released this week on the network's right-wing streaming service Fox Nation.
In the series, Carlson strongly suggests that the insurrection was not orchestrated by Trump's fans but by his foes, including the violent leftist group Antifa and even in the FBI and other national security divisions. He plants the idea that the siege was a "false flag" operation to discredit Trump supporters.
Carlson is promoting the series on his own prime-time show on Fox News — which is the top-rated program in all of cable news — and on the popular Fox & Friends morning show.
"These kinds of conspiracy theories about January 6 used to be relegated to weird blogs and known conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones," says Jared Holt, who monitors extremism on social media for the Atlantic Council's Digital Forensic Research Lab.
Holt argues Carlson is seeking to discredit news reports and court decisions about the siege.
"In a way, you don't need conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones to even exist if Tucker Carlson is going to do the job of conspiracy theorists for them," he says. Holt was among researchers who flagged concerning levels of heated rhetoric ahead of the protests that led to the siege.
I lost hope for the future of this country from just watching the 1 min trailer it was some serious inflammatory hate inspiring trash.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: SunnyDays on November 04, 2021, 09:25:02 AM
Things seem very divided right now. I find myself wondering if am just now at an age I notice these things and it's always been this way or this is the worst it's been in a while.
The 24-hourright-wingTV and radio outrage machine has done a lot of damage over the last 30-40 years.
Let's not pretend that CNN & MSNBC aren't also guilty of stirring up outrage for ratings, even if they're not as bad.
I never said they weren't guilty. I view 24-hour cable news as a bane of humanity. But you have noted that they are not as bad as Fox News, Newsmax, OAN, Breitbart, etc.
Additionally, most of the people in my life (various relatives, friends, and neighbors) who've had their brains hijacked by right-wing conspiracies have been marinating their eyeballs in Fox News et al. and their eardrums in Rush Limbaugh et al. via far-right-wing and "Christian" talk radio for a decade or more. I can't think of similarly inflammatory left-wing sources of manufactured outrage on broadcast radio, but I can certainly find the right-wing versions when I flip on my car radio, both AM and FM.
But don't people seek out these "news" sources because they already hold those views? Birds of a feather and all that?
Post by: Just Joe on November 04, 2021, 09:44:54 AM
Post by: OtherJen on November 04, 2021, 09:54:06 AM
How far can these TV people's lies go before they are declared a threat to peaceful society?
Apparently nowhere. The Fairness Doctrine has been gone for nearly 35 years, and the FCC doesn't seem to give a shit.
Post by: KarefulKactus15 on November 04, 2021, 01:05:20 PM
How far can these TV people's lies go before they are declared a threat to peaceful society?
I think the people have been failed in some capacity. There's a responsibility of people to be able to determine truth.
However that ship has majorly sailed.
Post by: OtherJen on November 04, 2021, 02:34:42 PM
Newsmax pulls reporter who tweeted vaccine conspiracy theory off air (The Hill) (https://thehill.com/homenews/media/580041-newsmax-pulls-reporter-who-tweeted-vaccine-conspiracy-theory-off-air)
Quote
Newsmax, the far-right news network targeting supporters of former President Trump, has sidelined a reporter who earlier this week floated a baseless conspiracy theory about coronavirus vaccines.
On Monday, Emerald Robinson, a White House correspondent for the outlet, sent out a tweet that erroneously claimed that vaccines "contain a bioluminescent marker called LUCIFERASE so that you can be tracked."
Twitter took Robinson's post down for violating the platform's rules, the social media company said, and Newsmax issued a rare rebuke of one of its leading on-air talents.
Post by: Sibley on November 05, 2021, 08:53:03 AM
Post by: FrugalToque on November 19, 2021, 01:12:22 PM
What I have read is for the revolutionary war the split was 1/3 against, 1/3 for, 1/3 didn't care. The ones who were against made part of Canadian history - they were the United Empire Loyalists. The ones living on the coast were evacuated to the Bahamas/Bermuda (not sure of the details) and Nova Scotia (what is now New Brunswick), and the ones inland walked to what are now Quebec (the Eastern Townships) and Ontario (especially the Niagara region). Laura Secord of War of 1812-14 fame was from a family that did the walk, as was her husband, Thomas Secord. My great-grandmother's family was part of the coastal refugees, they settled in St. John, NB.
I learned while on tours of the Canadian/British forts in the Niagara Region that the new US gov't stripped the Loyalists of their land in New York State. The land was then handed over to American revolutionaries.
The loyalists moved over to Upper Canada (current day Ontario) and created new homesteads. When the Americans invaded the Canadas in 1812 with the intent of "driving the British off the North American continent", they didn't read recent history and expected to be well received by the Upper Canadians. They were not well received. In fact, the populace behaved so badly during the occupation that the American commander had to withdraw and, while doing so, burned down every house he could find in Niagara-on-the-Lake. Even the US Secretary of War didn't like that part.
Toque.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on November 19, 2021, 01:33:03 PM
What I have read is for the revolutionary war the split was 1/3 against, 1/3 for, 1/3 didn't care. The ones who were against made part of Canadian history - they were the United Empire Loyalists. The ones living on the coast were evacuated to the Bahamas/Bermuda (not sure of the details) and Nova Scotia (what is now New Brunswick), and the ones inland walked to what are now Quebec (the Eastern Townships) and Ontario (especially the Niagara region). Laura Secord of War of 1812-14 fame was from a family that did the walk, as was her husband, Thomas Secord. My great-grandmother's family was part of the coastal refugees, they settled in St. John, NB.
I learned while on tours of the Canadian/British forts in the Niagara Region that the new US gov't stripped the Loyalists of their land in New York State. The land was then handed over to American revolutionaries.
The loyalists moved over to Upper Canada (current day Ontario) and created new homesteads. When the Americans invaded the Canadas in 1812 with the intent of "driving the British off the North American continent", they didn't read recent history and expected to be well received by the Upper Canadians. They were not well received. In fact, the populace behaved so badly during the occupation that the American commander had to withdraw and, while doing so, burned down every house he could find in Niagara-on-the-Lake. Even the US Secretary of War didn't like that part.
Toque.
I mean, what were they thinking? Every Canadian knows about Laura Secord's historic walk to warn the local British commander about a planned American attack. And how did she know about it? Because 2 American officers were quartered on her and talked about it , while her husband was upstairs recovering from a wound he received fighting with the colonial forces in a battle with the Americans. A battle that was at their town. And both Laura and Thomas's parents had moved to Niagara on the Lake because they were Loyalists. The British gave Laura a pension when she was an old lady. I've seen her house, it is a museum now.
And if anyone drives along the 401, there are lots of museums and battlegrounds along the way Got time? Chrysler Farm and Upper Canada Village are on the same exit.
https://www.niagaraparks.com/visit/heritage/laura-secord-homestead/ (https://www.niagaraparks.com/visit/heritage/laura-secord-homestead/)
https://www.pc.gc.ca/apps/dfhd/page_nhs_eng.aspx?id=424 (https://www.pc.gc.ca/apps/dfhd/page_nhs_eng.aspx?id=424)
Post by: SwordGuy on November 19, 2021, 02:30:26 PM
#1 of 4:
Post by: SwordGuy on November 19, 2021, 02:30:58 PM
Post by: SwordGuy on November 19, 2021, 02:31:35 PM
Post by: SwordGuy on November 19, 2021, 02:32:16 PM
Happy Holidays!
Post by: RetiredAt63 on November 19, 2021, 04:00:14 PM
Post by: Mr. Green on November 19, 2021, 04:31:48 PM
Post by: Sandi_k on November 19, 2021, 07:37:35 PM
Post by: Metalcat on November 20, 2021, 07:09:52 AM
Thanks for the share.
Post by: GodlessCommie on November 20, 2021, 08:02:20 AM