Author Topic: How to handle parents who believe fake news?  (Read 64557 times)

tct

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #150 on: December 07, 2020, 02:58:21 PM »
How do you know they are wrong and you are right?  Maybe you are both wrong.

It's not about wrong or right. In fact without seeing it first hand, can anyone be sure they are wrong or right? It's baseless claims with no credible source. If they formed beliefs based on proper information then that's fine. There are established ways of determining if information is credible. They aren't new. I actually enjoy being open to new ideas.

But seeing them completely lose all fact checking and critical thinking is.... Idk... Sad.  I thought maybe some early dementia at first, but everything else is a ok and I doubt 1/8 the country has developed early dementia all at once...
Could you define "proper information" for me?
Please give me examples of an established way of determining if the information is credible.
One could argue that a belief in some divinity is baseless, would you call all of these people noncredible therefore having dementia? That's about 90% of humanity (percentile can be desputed).
You still didn’t define “proper information” and  didn’t give any examples. I’m not sure what link you are referring to. I’m taking an arbitrary stance, I’m trying to clarify your proclamation of facts as credible and how you derived at them. It’s rather preposterous to proclaim that your sources or your understanding of the world is factual and others is not. My reference to the devine is about where evidence is more nuanced, we don’t have all the answers and evidence. It’s the same in science where the facts of today become non-facts tomorrow. It could be that a lot of misunderstanding lies in a subjective understanding of morality and ethics. So any evidence that supports your subjective perspective will be selected to validate your point. The evidence is grounded in a perceived fact but it is not necessarily factual, meaning still debatable. I don’t care what your parents believe and what you believe, I’m curious why you are so authoritarian. You seem to pathologize your parents based on their inability to differentiate perceived facts and holding different perspectives than yours. Is it worth to jeopardize your relationships with your parents over something that in the end might be very trivial?

I'm not the OP, but I personally use two metrics to help evaluate the general "properness" of information - positive incentives and internal consistency. I'll use a hopefully non-controversial example from my past to demonstrate.

I was raised in a very conservative Christian family, and was taught that the account of Genesis was the literal truth of the creation of the world. The universe as a whole was only about 6000 years old, evolutionary theory was a hoax, and a different perspective on the available fossil and historical evidence showed that they could be explained as the products of a world-wide flood. I was a pretty well-read kid growing up, as my parents encouraged the study of all sorts of non-evolutionary science - after all, the natural world is the greatest proof of a creator in and of itself! And, for most of my young adulthood, I believed this.

However, the more I learned about biology, the more confused I got about how evolutionary theory could be a blatant lie. So, I started (covertly!) reading about evolutionary theory, and was shocked at how robust the evidence was for it. So many threads from the sciences that I already understood weaved neatly into place, and the internal consistency of my understanding of the sciences and of evolutionary theory convinced me that it was the most reasonable explanation.

Another, concurrent realization that I had in addition to the self-consistency, was that the idea that evolutionary theory was a big conspiracy seemed amazingly implausible. Conspiracies are hard. There's no incentive for educated biologists to be propping up a shoddy theory, and strong incentive for biblical-minded authors to maintain that there's a biological controversy, as denying evolution is a necessary support for their faith.

I think there are similar dynamics in what @Kroaler is talking about. There are certain segments of the media that are pushing information that doesn't agree with the preponderance of evidence (e.g. rampant U.S. election fraud) and also are incentivised to do so (e.g. their paycheque is linked to propping up Trump, via their brand or by Trump having the ability to fire them). If you're not a part of those echo chambers, it's perfectly reasonable to be "authoritarian" about pushing back on those opinions - they directly threaten trust in the U.S. electoral system and in the idea of free and fair elections. That hardly seems trivial, to me.

I'd also just like to add that just because there are two or more points of view, that doesn't automatically mean the truth lies somewhere in the middle - again, think of evolution and "Teach the Controversy". An enlightened position doesn't entertain hogwash. Sometimes people are completely misinformed, and that's okay, but misinformation needs to be countered.

Plina

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #151 on: December 07, 2020, 03:47:20 PM »
I have a few conspiracy theorists in my family.

Thankfully, they believe in covid and despise Trump, so I don't have to put up with any of this particular brand of conspiracy nonsense right now, which is great.

However, I have a few decades under my belt of navigating conspiracies and handling them with patients, so I'll share my strategies.

First Step: Validate Validate Validate
-This is the first step for all conflict management, make sure their feelings and concerns are validated. Before rejecting their position, take a keen interest in understanding the feelings that are motivating them to seek out this type of information. Validate those feelings.
Ex:
You: "mom, it sounds like you're really afraid of what's going on with the government right now, I want to know what you're feeling most afraid of"
Mom: *says something that makes it clear that she doesn't trust her own democratically elected government*
You: "I totally understand. Politics have gotten so crazy these days, I've had a lot of similar feelings at times. It's really stressful"

Second Step: Explore the things they are probably right about
-There *is* an enormous amount of bias in a lot of media these days, you can cite facts that news outlets used to be more objective, non partisan, you can bond over the fact that watching the 6 o'clock News wasn't a bold political statement back in the day. It *is* hard to just trust the news anymore and that's legitimately stressful.

At this stage it would be really useful to have some solid examples of so-called leftist media bias that bother you. Ex: Obama is a media darling, but no one ever seems to talk about his role in fracking, or something like that.

For me, I really bonded over disliking CNN. I was watching American news early in Trump's presidency, and the coverage on CNN constantly made it sound as if he was moments away from being charged with something, and this was way before that was even close to being a possibility. I so wanted to understand what was going on, but it was so sensationalized it was impossible to parse anything meaningful.

Step Three: Push That Further
-As you build trust, as they feel you understand them and respect their distrust of media and even share it to a degree, you can extend the logic to include their own media.
Show how no media is immune to corruption, look at how they used to trust Fox News implicitly. Open them up to the concept that all news sources are fallible.

Step Four: Start working together to establish what types of sources of information might be valid
-Work collaboratively to determine what fact checking they would be comfortable with, maybe you can become a trusted fact checker?

At the end of the day, these people are scared and looking for reassurance. By rejecting their concerns and supporting the very media they fear, you just add yourself to the things they'll worry about.

They are desperately seeking sources of information they can unquestioningly trust, which is ironic considering the genesis of the problem is not trusting information. But the paradoxical thinking is also your access point for redirecting what they have faith in.

I myself am a former scientist and a medical professional, and my family has been heavily involved in politics my entire life. Because of my extensive experience in the above industries, I don't trust any of them.

I actually genuinely understand where the mistrust comes from in these people, so I don't attack their mistrust, I instead challenge their irrational faith in whatever nonsense media they're consuming. I utilize their own drive to mistrust in order to devalue their news sources instead of trying to promote the value of mine. It's then no longer partisan.

It's extremely uncomfortable to not trust any major sources of information, but that's where I bring them to with baby steps. Either they will eventually find comfort in evaluating each piece of information on their own, or they will be so desperate for a new arbiter of truth that I can slot myself into that position for them, which makes my life easier.

You cants "fact check" anyone unless they believe you to be someone who has access to facts.

I have started listening to an interesting book called Just listen by Mark Goulston. He seems to have a similar approach that you have presented.

Cassie

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #152 on: December 07, 2020, 04:42:36 PM »
I would love everyone to have Medicare and most of my friends feel the same way. A lack of health care has devastated people’s lives and some have lost their lives. Ugh!

carolina822

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #153 on: December 07, 2020, 06:18:35 PM »

Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids.  One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.

That might be true for some things but not when it comes to fake news.  There are studies indicating the elderly are much more susceptible to fake news and share it much more often.   Plus older people are more racist per many studies.    Not to mention if only people < 55 voted we'd be much likelier to have universal health care and other things.
People call different news sources fake, who is right? 
As far as your Universal Health care statement, that is a sign that older people have a slight better understanding of Individual Rights and or realize things done by the government is usually worse than the free market. With years lived comes wisdom.

Then those people need to get off of Medicare and try to buy a private insurance policy with 75 years worth of pre-existing conditions.

Wrenchturner

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #154 on: December 07, 2020, 06:36:05 PM »
Fake news is to real news what a McDonald's cheeseburger is to a homemade cheeseburger. 

Lots of people think that McDonald's makes a good cheeseburger.  So it's good enough, right?

Part of the problem here is truth-related problems.

Truth:
-is boring
-doesn't often indicate a clear solution
-isn't easily monetized.

So the so-called news becomes less truth based since it doesn't fulfill the business model that it has found success in.

Most issues in society require compromises but that doesn't fulfill the limbic system the way a righteous McTruth might.  McTruths are exciting, encourage a righteous stance/activism, and are easily monetized due to the two previous elements.

This is not a partisan issue, both sides are guilty of it although Trump was unique in his willingness to apply this strategy.

The generational problem(how to handle parents...) is like trying to teach an old mechanic how to repair modern fuel injection.  Or perhaps worse.  Simply put I don't think they have the framework to identify when they're being played.  I'm sure young people today will fall prey to the novel bait-and-switches of tomorrow.

I think there are bigger issues involved, such as the conflation of activism with journalism and the general complexity of society which makes it difficult to maintain competence in all the required areas.  Buying a burger used to just be a matter of how high your cholesterol was.  Now we're supposed to assess the ethics of the company and the supply chain and the environmental footprint and the privilege, and........

Sibley

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #155 on: December 07, 2020, 08:37:52 PM »
Fake news is to real news what a McDonald's cheeseburger is to a homemade cheeseburger. 

Lots of people think that McDonald's makes a good cheeseburger.  So it's good enough, right?

Part of the problem here is truth-related problems.

Truth:
-is boring
-doesn't often indicate a clear solution
-isn't easily monetized.

So the so-called news becomes less truth based since it doesn't fulfill the business model that it has found success in.

Most issues in society require compromises but that doesn't fulfill the limbic system the way a righteous McTruth might.  McTruths are exciting, encourage a righteous stance/activism, and are easily monetized due to the two previous elements.

This is not a partisan issue, both sides are guilty of it although Trump was unique in his willingness to apply this strategy.

The generational problem(how to handle parents...) is like trying to teach an old mechanic how to repair modern fuel injection.  Or perhaps worse.  Simply put I don't think they have the framework to identify when they're being played.  I'm sure young people today will fall prey to the novel bait-and-switches of tomorrow.

I think there are bigger issues involved, such as the conflation of activism with journalism and the general complexity of society which makes it difficult to maintain competence in all the required areas.  Buying a burger used to just be a matter of how high your cholesterol was.  Now we're supposed to assess the ethics of the company and the supply chain and the environmental footprint and the privilege, and........

Yep. Plus, throw in health issues or simply natural changes related to age which make people more susceptible, and perfect storm. Its understandable, and frustrating as all heck. Because then they make choices that only make their problems worse and can't begin to understand that.

ender

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #156 on: December 08, 2020, 07:50:36 AM »
As a side note:

I'm really shocked by the amount of "two sides to everything" and "How do you know your source is right" advice being given on this thread.

Some information is false and verifiable as such . The earth isn't flat... etc etc. (or does someone on here question this as well?)

While facts may be true vs false (which is pretty much by definition for "fact"), certainly interpretations of facts can be right/wrong.

There are certainly information which is more reported or wildly known and ergo more "true" than others.

Many people shamelessly exploit statistics as "facts" when it's an interpretation of data which can very well be biased.

Which facts are created is often the result of bias.

Everyone creating facts has motivations and ambition.

In research, money comes from somewhere and that somewhere is a reflection of beliefs.

In science, which hypotheses get explored/tested is a result of bias.

Not all research is true (I've read way too many "peer reviewed" papers in my field that are... well, obviously wrong. Just because something to published somewhere doesn't imply it's actually correct).

Most fact reporting/generation has funding implications - whether private or public.

Some people blatantly attempt to misrepresent information/facts for their own gain.

People have different underlying respect for authority figures and the truth of what they say.

I could go on and on here. The point is, "facts" are not necessarily a clear cut bludgeon even if they are true.

This doesn't mean "whatever I want to be true is true" but it seems a bit crazy to me how many people seem to feel they have cornered some Truth and objective understanding of reality. There really aren't unbiased sources of truth/facts (if you really want to get into it, the debate in philosophy around epistemology has been ongoing for millenia).

Anyone who takes any report, fact, or research at face value without understanding the complex system of biases went into generating it is... naive. At some level all facts are applications of bias.

ctuser1

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #157 on: December 08, 2020, 08:35:42 AM »
I could go on and on here. The point is, "facts" are not necessarily a clear cut bludgeon even if they are true.

Your entire post can probably be summarized as "being 100% certain of anything is stupid".

Stated another way - anyone acting with an unshakable certainty in a certain set of beliefs, especially those of conspiratorial nature, are by the very logical definition of your setup - "naive", as you say in your post.

Therefore, the OP is still left with parents who are acting with certainty on what can only be defined as a shaky foundation of reality. Being depressed and anxious about some fictitious "Dominion Conspiracy" still counts as "acting".

« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 08:37:15 AM by ctuser1 »

ender

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #158 on: December 08, 2020, 08:37:07 AM »
I could go on and on here. The point is, "facts" are not necessarily a clear cut bludgeon even if they are true.

Your entire post can probably be summarized as "being 100% certain of anything is stupid".

Stated another way - anyone acting with an unshakable certainty in a certain set of beliefs, especially those of conspiratorial nature, are by the very logical definition of your setup - naive.

Therefore, the OP is still left with parents who are acting with certainty on what can only be defined as a shaky foundation of reality. Being depressed and anxious about some fictitious "Dominion Conspiracy" still counts as "acting".

That's certainly one interpretation of what I wrote.

ctuser1

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #159 on: December 08, 2020, 09:01:01 AM »
I could go on and on here. The point is, "facts" are not necessarily a clear cut bludgeon even if they are true.

Your entire post can probably be summarized as "being 100% certain of anything is stupid".

Stated another way - anyone acting with an unshakable certainty in a certain set of beliefs, especially those of conspiratorial nature, are by the very logical definition of your setup - naive.

Therefore, the OP is still left with parents who are acting with certainty on what can only be defined as a shaky foundation of reality. Being depressed and anxious about some fictitious "Dominion Conspiracy" still counts as "acting".

That's certainly one interpretation of what I wrote.

You are questioning if the axioms or the rules of interpretations can be applied 100% reliably in a logical system. Per my (rather limited and somewhat far removed since I left college) understanding, there are a couple of other entire classes of epistemological issues with logical systems. A guy named Alan Cobham (not the aviator, whose wiki page comes up when I search) did some interesting work with philosophical implications like "Can Truth be considered Truth if it is not practically computable". And then there is the issue of logical omniscience where humans interact with platonic mathematical logic.

The above topic is very close to my heart and if I had no want for money I will probably spend all my hours trying to disentangle issues with the epistemological systems that humans can currently access.

But none of the above changes the on the ground fact that the OP has parents who cares not a zero iota about the validity or invalidity of logic systems. They are dead sure of something - rather questionable (has to be, if you are invoking the standards that you raise) - and that has the potential of causing them harm.

Your post seemed to imply that the OP should accept his parents paranoia and stand aside without intervening. I'd like to disagree if that was indeed your implication. Hence my post.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 09:32:24 AM by ctuser1 »

ender

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #160 on: December 08, 2020, 09:38:31 AM »
Your post seemed to imply that the OP should accept his parents paranoia and stand aside without intervening. I'd like to disagree if that was indeed your implication. Hence my post.

When did it imply that? Did you not read the post I explicitly quoted?


ctuser1

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #161 on: December 08, 2020, 09:48:03 AM »
Your post seemed to imply that the OP should accept his parents paranoia and stand aside without intervening. I'd like to disagree if that was indeed your implication. Hence my post.

When did it imply that? Did you not read the post I explicitly quoted?

1. OP was trying to figure out what to do with conspiracy theory believing parents. There were questions whether conspiracy theories are really conspiracy theories and should be questioned by OP.
2. He posted, in context of #1 that certain facts, like "earth is flat" is verifiable.
3. #2 is the post you explicitly quoted, and questioned verifiability and interpretation of facts.

In the context, don't you think there is an implication that you are attempting to dissuade OP from #1? At least that is how I read it. What is the point of raising epistemological issues in this specific thread otherwise?


ender

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #162 on: December 08, 2020, 11:00:40 AM »
Your post seemed to imply that the OP should accept his parents paranoia and stand aside without intervening. I'd like to disagree if that was indeed your implication. Hence my post.

When did it imply that? Did you not read the post I explicitly quoted?

1. OP was trying to figure out what to do with conspiracy theory believing parents. There were questions whether conspiracy theories are really conspiracy theories and should be questioned by OP.
2. He posted, in context of #1 that certain facts, like "earth is flat" is verifiable.
3. #2 is the post you explicitly quoted, and questioned verifiability and interpretation of facts.

In the context, don't you think there is an implication that you are attempting to dissuade OP from #1? At least that is how I read it. What is the point of raising epistemological issues in this specific thread otherwise?

Sigh.

The OP is trying to understand "How to handle parents who believe fake news."

Unless you (and OP) think that the people in the OP are completely irrational and insane -- in which case a different approach is needed -- in order to make sense of any conversation you need to actually understand why people believe what they believe.

Given the OP calls them "otherwise smart people" it seems to rule out the irrational/insane angle.

Which means, people in the OP's world have a different understanding of what "facts" are. Or, another way to say it, a different interpretation of data/reality/whatever.

The problem that OP is facing is trying to understand is that from his perspective, facts are 100% incontrovertible and obvious. This means the parents (and other family) are completely irrational. But they've also said they are, and I quote, "otherwise smart people."

It means the problem relates to interpretation of facts or even what facts are relevant. From their perspective, things make sense, which means if you legitimately want discussion vs appeasement, you have to start thinking of this whole domain as epistemological.

Within that area, there are two different types of problems. Sometimes, facts are just... wrong. Sometimes, and I think far more often it's this problem - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant - where a fact is pedantically true in isolation but doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion when considered with the remainder of the elephant.

In that second case if you want to have productive conversations with someone who is convinced the entire elephant is the trunk, you have to acknowledge that their facts or you will never make a productive conversation.  People, in general, react very quickly to not feeling validated/understood.

A lot of people can't empathize with, for example, people who think the election was completely stolen or otherwise had a lot of fraud. The thing is, there were mistakes and issues with the election. Republicans have had a field day making those issues a much bigger deal. But if you want to talk with someone on that topic, the common "there wasn't election fraud" talking line just invalidates an entire perspective that is based - at least originally - on something that both people presumably agree on.

Common ground goes a long way towards building trust, which is what you need if you actually want to change someone's belief.

partgypsy

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #163 on: December 08, 2020, 11:21:40 AM »
But I don't hear people on the other aisle saying "there was no election fraud", which is also an unprovable assertion. Instead what I see is a quote from someone that states "130" of voters voted, and then a fact based response "actually 49% of registered voters voted". I do feel it is good to have respectable interchanges with people. But I'm not sure how well it will work in such cases when the people we are talking about are disagreeing on commonly agreed facts (as based on election workers, election officials, multiple judges reviewing the evidence, etc).

MoseyingAlong

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #164 on: December 08, 2020, 12:41:59 PM »
On the topic of election fraud, can we all agree this is not a new subject?

My mom was from the Chicago area and I remember 40 years ago, she and my dad "joking" about the Cook County mantra of "Vote Early and Often."

Instead of denying there is any election fraud, I think it's more productive to agree that there should not be any and to focus on how to detect and prevent it. When someone declares that there isn't any, they lose a lot of credibility to me.
I've had people tell me about completing the ballot for relatives with dementia and mailing it in. That to me is fraud but they don't see it that way.

GuitarStv

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #165 on: December 08, 2020, 01:35:32 PM »
I've had people tell me about completing the ballot for relatives with dementia and mailing it in. That to me is fraud but they don't see it that way.

So report them.  That's clearly fraud.

ctuser1

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #166 on: December 08, 2020, 01:40:27 PM »
Unless you (and OP) think that the people in the OP are completely irrational and insane -- in which case a different approach is needed -- in order to make sense of any conversation you need to actually understand why people believe what they believe.
This statement only works if you make it applicable to everyone.
If OP's parents are claiming 100% actionable certainty based on conspiracy theories, then they indeed are irrational - not sure about insane.
If OP is claiming there is absolutely 0 fraud in the election, then he is irrational.

Given the OP calls them "otherwise smart people" it seems to rule out the irrational/insane angle.

Which means, people in the OP's world have a different understanding of what "facts" are. Or, another way to say it, a different interpretation of data/reality/whatever.
Again - another tautology.

The problem that OP is facing is trying to understand is that from his perspective, facts are 100% incontrovertible and obvious. This means the parents (and other family) are completely irrational. But they've also said they are, and I quote, "otherwise smart people."
Anyone calling one set of facts "100% incontrovertible" is wrong. If OP is saying "there is no election fraud" - he would be wrong. Heck we know there were two Trump voters arrested in PA for trying to commit election fraud.

Similarly, if OP's parents are saying "there was no attempt at disenfranchising inner city blacks by a certain political party" - they would also be wrong.

But, assuming you would like to apply this logic to all actors in this conversation - again this much is obvious.


It means the problem relates to interpretation of facts or even what facts are relevant. From their perspective, things make sense, which means if you legitimately want discussion vs appeasement, you have to start thinking of this whole domain as epistemological.
One sided "want" of discussion is generally fruitless. Do both sides want discussion? i.e. can we have a broad discussion about "Fraud" and "Apartheid" both, together? Else you fall for the rightwing propaganda trick that shifts the overton window on one side and institutes institutional Apartheid and Disenfranchisement in the name of combating fraud.

Please note that the voter participation rate of whites and non-whites still have not caught up in this election. So the centuries long disenfranchisement has still not disappeared. And you want to engage in a discussion how inner-city blacks in Atlanta/Milwaukee/Detroit committed fraud?? Discussion only works if it is both sided and in good faith.
 
Within that area, there are two different types of problems. Sometimes, facts are just... wrong. Sometimes, and I think far more often it's this problem - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant - where a fact is pedantically true in isolation but doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion when considered with the remainder of the elephant.

In that second case if you want to have productive conversations with someone who is convinced the entire elephant is the trunk, you have to acknowledge that their facts or you will never make a productive conversation.  People, in general, react very quickly to not feeling validated/understood.

A lot of people can't empathize with, for example, people who think the election was completely stolen or otherwise had a lot of fraud. The thing is, there were mistakes and issues with the election. Republicans have had a field day making those issues a much bigger deal. But if you want to talk with someone on that topic, the common "there wasn't election fraud" talking line just invalidates an entire perspective that is based - at least originally - on something that both people presumably agree on.

Common ground goes a long way towards building trust, which is what you need if you actually want to change someone's belief.

I don't know your political persuasion. However, your approach reminds me of what frustrates me about the center-left in the US politics today. You are thinking that one side in this "discussion" has the entire onus to "understand", almost to the point of "pandering". The statement - "there wasn't election fraud" is just as incorrect as "there wasn't any black voter suppression" - no more and no less. 

OP is dealing with parents, not a political opponent. So his approach needs to differ significantly. However, when someone talks about "civil wars" based on the election results, they are not doing very well. I don't think his main problem is that the parents believe in conspiracy theories - it is that they either obsess over it or may - in future - take actions that will hurt themselves. I am not sure you can understand/convert anyone in that mental state - but you can sure intervene to take the worse edges off sometimes.

----------------

This last bit is not meant as a criticism. But please consider if you are really being able to empathize with everyone here. Inner city blacks have historically had their vote suppressed. In the last few years - a lot of effort/money was put in place to allow them to participate in democracy. Some of those efforts are resulting in them having a higher say now + the covid related absentee ballots allowed - for example - a single mother with 2 jobs to finally vote this year. And what is the reaction from the Trumpy rightwing whites? That the inner city Detroit blacks committed fraud! I am not black, neither do I live in the inner city - but I felt pretty p*ssed off hearing that.

I don't think it will be very productive for OP to have a "discussion" with his parents about this side of the proverbial elephant that you speak of.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 01:53:37 PM by ctuser1 »

ender

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #167 on: December 08, 2020, 02:06:45 PM »
If you want to argue with some crazy Trump conspiracy theorist, I'm not it.

I'm just someone who has parents and other relatives who - like OP's parents - are way off in the deep end of Trump news media/conspiracies. This is how I approach it.

You can do whatever you want @ctuser1 with your parents if they also believe completely batshit crazy things. Write them off if you want. Some of us can't and are forced to deal with conversations around this topic regularly with our family. Some of us only have family that are off in this deep end. The last time my father and I talked, he spoke about bombing China as a punishment for Covid. I have extended family who post conspiracy theories about the election on Facebook constantly.

I'm glad you don't have to deal with the practical reality that sometimes, people we love and care about believe completely absurd things.

It would certainly be a lot easier for me to just adopt a scorched earth policy here, as you're suggesting, and never engage with them.

ctuser1

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #168 on: December 08, 2020, 02:20:11 PM »
It would certainly be a lot easier for me to just adopt a scorched earth policy here, as you're suggesting, and never engage with them.

Sorry - I did not mean to imply that you should ever write off family. I personally think there is a middle ground where you do not validate the conspiracy theories, maybe agree to disagree, while always caring for them. Maybe they will think of you as a looney liberal cousin - family but a little weird - or something.

But you are right that I haven't dealt with the extent of the problem that you are describing. It is possible that I can't see why my suggestion is not practical in more extreme situations due to this.

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #169 on: December 08, 2020, 02:27:52 PM »

Sorry - I did not mean to imply that you should ever write off family.

OT, but just want to disagree and say that there are absolutely reasonable and valid reasons to cut people out of your life even if they are family.

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #170 on: December 08, 2020, 02:37:10 PM »
I've had people tell me about completing the ballot for relatives with dementia and mailing it in. That to me is fraud but they don't see it that way.

So report them.  That's clearly fraud.

+1. Like many facts, this is not open to debate. That's fraud, and the people who do it deserve to be convicted of fraud and all that that entails. Report them.

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #171 on: December 09, 2020, 10:01:28 AM »
It's a lot more interesting, and frankly satisfying, to accept people as they are.  Again, discussion is not agreement.  And admittedly I do find teasing out why people think the way they do to be fairly interesting.

If your goal is to be entertained by other people, sure.  If your goal is to help the people you love, and to help humanity, the POV you support is not useful.
Sorry. We’ve had about a decade of folks “speaking truth” to (non)power.  And what have been the results? In the end, a strategy needs needs to be compared to the ends it produces. So where are we culturally with all this “truth telling?” Looks to me like the situation just before a divorce. Or a civil war.

Sometimes the best strategy to approach people is to simply shut your trap and listen. I know that’s not popular in circles where ego is all the rage, but the strategy happens to work. And yes, it is often interesting and sometimes very entertaining. 

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #172 on: December 09, 2020, 11:09:00 AM »
It's a lot more interesting, and frankly satisfying, to accept people as they are.  Again, discussion is not agreement.  And admittedly I do find teasing out why people think the way they do to be fairly interesting.

If your goal is to be entertained by other people, sure.  If your goal is to help the people you love, and to help humanity, the POV you support is not useful.
Sorry. We’ve had about a decade of folks “speaking truth” to (non)power.  And what have been the results? In the end, a strategy needs needs to be compared to the ends it produces. So where are we culturally with all this “truth telling?” Looks to me like the situation just before a divorce. Or a civil war.

Sometimes the best strategy to approach people is to simply shut your trap and listen. I know that’s not popular in circles where ego is all the rage, but the strategy happens to work. And yes, it is often interesting and sometimes very entertaining.

 . . . he said, loudly and abrasively voicing his objections.


:D

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #173 on: December 09, 2020, 02:55:40 PM »
It's a lot more interesting, and frankly satisfying, to accept people as they are.  Again, discussion is not agreement.  And admittedly I do find teasing out why people think the way they do to be fairly interesting.

If your goal is to be entertained by other people, sure.  If your goal is to help the people you love, and to help humanity, the POV you support is not useful.
Sorry. We’ve had about a decade of folks “speaking truth” to (non)power.  And what have been the results? In the end, a strategy needs needs to be compared to the ends it produces. So where are we culturally with all this “truth telling?” Looks to me like the situation just before a divorce. Or a civil war.

Sometimes the best strategy to approach people is to simply shut your trap and listen. I know that’s not popular in circles where ego is all the rage, but the strategy happens to work. And yes, it is often interesting and sometimes very entertaining.

I have a family member who's had an eating disorder her whole life, been to rehab twice for alcohol, and barely keeps the wheels on her life.  I don't lecture her on wearing masks.  Some people have bigger problems to face.

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #174 on: December 09, 2020, 06:59:23 PM »
There is a really long post on Captain Awkward that may be helpful to posters here.


It's lengthy, but here are the best parts, in my opinion. Some emphasis mine, some are Captain Awkward's own.

"Letter Writer, you are not alone, the people who wrote me similar letters are not alone, none of us are alone, and nobody can fight or fix this alone by being pure of heart and sure of word, is what I think. We’re going to need sustained, widespread policies and content moderation tools and journalism standards and massive antitrust actions that force lucrative platforms to stop the toxic sludge at the source because it literally gets too unprofitable to be a bunch of fascism-enabling ubrovillains. Some people’s hearts can’t be fixed with better interpersonal communications or the tempting Sorkiny fantasy that, deep down, everybody wants the same things and can be reached with the right conversation, or, in Aaron’s case, stirring-monologue-with-cheesy-music-and-hallway-power-walk. “Everyone” clearly does not want the same things, people are dying, if our shittiest relatives want us to believe in a shared inherent human decency, I’m all about it, but I’m gonna need them to stop keeping theirs “deep down” next to the oft-mentioned “racist bone” that is 100% definitely somewhere in their bodies."

[...]

"But in my opinion and experience, family dynamics like yours and parents like your mom do not change unless the power dynamics change, and sometimes the reminder that you could walk away if you really had to is the only thing that makes it safe or even possible to keep engaging. “Deep breaths, I’m going to take it one visit at a time, and if it’s terrible, I’m allowed to leave and try again another time” isn’t “Fuck you, parents, who needs ’em anyhow,” its “I am trying desperately to stay connected to people I love, in spite of everything.” Abusive parents are not created by disobedient children, there’s no amount of love and duty and compliance that turns an unkind person into a kind one, and sometimes there is no safe distance at which you can coexist. This is true in romantic relationships, this is true in friendships, and this is true in families."

ministashy

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #175 on: December 10, 2020, 04:14:21 AM »
I'm sensing a certain bias from what you deduced from my post.
Again, I'm neutral but you want to portray me that I'm not, and I somehow have to take a stance in defense of neutrality. Your story is unconvincing in a scope of highly complex understanding where authority is. Your assumption that the US elections are somewhat axiomatically perfect is dumbfounding. Historically speaking, there is a massive evidence of dysfunctional methodologies involved, and there is plenty of room for advancing the current voting system. To take a higher ground and to proclaim it as axiomatic system is authoritarian. What's next, are you going to claim that the so called democracy has no flaws simply by aligning yourself to either left or right?  That is in principal highly undemocratic reasoning, to choose to see flaws only in one ideology. No ideology should have authority as all ideologies are evolving concepts and they have hundreds of manifestations historically and contemporaneously. We can debate on certain traits within ideologies, liberal, conservative, social democratic, etc. and how they manifest themselves and how they are being perceived and interpreted in different parts of the world. But none of them have delivered on all fronts for the benefit of all. And my neutrality is highly entrenched in the benefit of all. If your argument is that you only want to benefit your ideology, then I have no quandary with you, as I'm not interested where you stand and how that shapes your perception of facts and evidence.
I'm not saying that you're not neutral - if anything, your position seems to be *extremely* neutral, and that confuses me. To the OP's original points, do you disagree that there was a secret military operation in Germany, for example? Your initial post about the possibility of both the OP and their parents being both wrong makes it sound like you're willing to entertain that possibility for the sake of neutrality, whether or not there's any evidence for it.

Just so it's clear, too, I'm not saying and haven't said that the U.S. electoral system is perfect, and can't be improved. I must have not wrote clearly if that's how you read it - my apologies.

Fair enough. Let me explain what I meant by "neutrality".  It seems to be impossible to find time and resources to validate truth in the barrage of information we are exposed to on daily basis. What did strike me the most was the propensity of the OP to pathologize his own parents. It could be that he is right and they are wrong in some particular instance. I can't really arbitrate who is right or wrong. I sense proclivity to taking a higher ground by the OP, which in the larger picture him pathologizing his own parents or some group of people over some unverified or verified facts is rather alarming. This exponential polarization over some weaponized facts and hyperbolized labels is very destructive and polarize the society more, killing the due process of rational debate and Socratean thinking, ultimately in the end feeding the frenzy of the Hegelian dialectic. Very sad.

If anyone isn't sure, this is a great example of "Gaslighting".

Also 'Sealioning": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

ctuser1

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #176 on: December 10, 2020, 04:40:38 AM »
It's a lot more interesting, and frankly satisfying, to accept people as they are.  Again, discussion is not agreement.  And admittedly I do find teasing out why people think the way they do to be fairly interesting.

If your goal is to be entertained by other people, sure.  If your goal is to help the people you love, and to help humanity, the POV you support is not useful.
Sorry. We’ve had about a decade of folks “speaking truth” to (non)power.  And what have been the results? In the end, a strategy needs needs to be compared to the ends it produces. So where are we culturally with all this “truth telling?” Looks to me like the situation just before a divorce. Or a civil war.

Sometimes the best strategy to approach people is to simply shut your trap and listen. I know that’s not popular in circles where ego is all the rage, but the strategy happens to work. And yes, it is often interesting and sometimes very entertaining.

I have a family member who's had an eating disorder her whole life, been to rehab twice for alcohol, and barely keeps the wheels on her life.  I don't lecture her on wearing masks.  Some people have bigger problems to face.

Her wearing a mask is not about her problems. It is about her not giving others her problems (i.e. viral load in this case).

She, of course, should have every right to either participate or not participate in the society. That is freedom. If she chooses to exercise that freedom and not participate in society, she should forego using the common resources afforded to her by the society (e.g. roads, common areas, other taxpayer funded facilities etc. etc. etc.). To the extent that she wants to use public resources, she should be mindful of not infringing on other's freedoms in a reckless and wanton manner. She is not the only person in the society with freedoms, other's have freedoms and rights too!

This basic concept of personal responsibility was very common in American culture till about  1970's, and was replaced with freeloading in the libertarian circles starting about the time of Ayn Rand. Not sure how it was/is in Canada.

former player

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #177 on: December 10, 2020, 05:33:22 AM »
It's a lot more interesting, and frankly satisfying, to accept people as they are.  Again, discussion is not agreement.  And admittedly I do find teasing out why people think the way they do to be fairly interesting.

If your goal is to be entertained by other people, sure.  If your goal is to help the people you love, and to help humanity, the POV you support is not useful.
Sorry. We’ve had about a decade of folks “speaking truth” to (non)power.  And what have been the results? In the end, a strategy needs needs to be compared to the ends it produces. So where are we culturally with all this “truth telling?” Looks to me like the situation just before a divorce. Or a civil war.

Sometimes the best strategy to approach people is to simply shut your trap and listen. I know that’s not popular in circles where ego is all the rage, but the strategy happens to work. And yes, it is often interesting and sometimes very entertaining.

I have a family member who's had an eating disorder her whole life, been to rehab twice for alcohol, and barely keeps the wheels on her life.  I don't lecture her on wearing masks.  Some people have bigger problems to face.

Her wearing a mask is not about her problems. It is about her not giving others her problems (i.e. viral load in this case).

She, of course, should have every right to either participate or not participate in the society. That is freedom. If she chooses to exercise that freedom and not participate in society, she should forego using the common resources afforded to her by the society (e.g. roads, common areas, other taxpayer funded facilities etc. etc. etc.). To the extent that she wants to use public resources, she should be mindful of not infringing on other's freedoms in a reckless and wanton manner. She is not the only person in the society with freedoms, other's have freedoms and rights too!

This basic concept of personal responsibility was very common in American culture till about  1970's, and was replaced with freeloading in the libertarian circles starting about the time of Ayn Rand. Not sure how it was/is in Canada.
You are of course entirely right about personal responsibility.  But you seem not to be making allowances for someone with significant, life-long mental health disabilities such a Wrenchturner's family member.  Allowances are made for people with physical disabilities which make mask-wearing difficult or impossible, it is only equitable to make equivalent allowances for people with mental disabilities.  Sadly the social and practical difficulties for people with mental disabilities are too often invisible and ignored.

ctuser1

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #178 on: December 10, 2020, 06:59:29 AM »
Her wearing a mask is not about her problems. It is about her not giving others her problems (i.e. viral load in this case).

She, of course, should have every right to either participate or not participate in the society. That is freedom. If she chooses to exercise that freedom and not participate in society, she should forego using the common resources afforded to her by the society (e.g. roads, common areas, other taxpayer funded facilities etc. etc. etc.). To the extent that she wants to use public resources, she should be mindful of not infringing on other's freedoms in a reckless and wanton manner. She is not the only person in the society with freedoms, other's have freedoms and rights too!

This basic concept of personal responsibility was very common in American culture till about  1970's, and was replaced with freeloading in the libertarian circles starting about the time of Ayn Rand. Not sure how it was/is in Canada.
You are of course entirely right about personal responsibility.  But you seem not to be making allowances for someone with significant, life-long mental health disabilities such a Wrenchturner's family member.  Allowances are made for people with physical disabilities which make mask-wearing difficult or impossible, it is only equitable to make equivalent allowances for people with mental disabilities.  Sadly the social and practical difficulties for people with mental disabilities are too often invisible and ignored.

You're right, a compassionate society must make allowances for disability.



KarefulKactus15

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #179 on: January 06, 2021, 03:46:37 PM »
Her wearing a mask is not about her problems. It is about her not giving others her problems (i.e. viral load in this case).

She, of course, should have every right to either participate or not participate in the society. That is freedom. If she chooses to exercise that freedom and not participate in society, she should forego using the common resources afforded to her by the society (e.g. roads, common areas, other taxpayer funded facilities etc. etc. etc.). To the extent that she wants to use public resources, she should be mindful of not infringing on other's freedoms in a reckless and wanton manner. She is not the only person in the society with freedoms, other's have freedoms and rights too!

This basic concept of personal responsibility was very common in American culture till about  1970's, and was replaced with freeloading in the libertarian circles starting about the time of Ayn Rand. Not sure how it was/is in Canada.
You are of course entirely right about personal responsibility.  But you seem not to be making allowances for someone with significant, life-long mental health disabilities such a Wrenchturner's family member.  Allowances are made for people with physical disabilities which make mask-wearing difficult or impossible, it is only equitable to make equivalent allowances for people with mental disabilities.  Sadly the social and practical difficulties for people with mental disabilities are too often invisible and ignored.

You're right, a compassionate society must make allowances for disability.

Bump - So my parents are at the trump rally at capital hill.

GuitarStv

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #180 on: January 06, 2021, 03:55:59 PM »
Her wearing a mask is not about her problems. It is about her not giving others her problems (i.e. viral load in this case).

She, of course, should have every right to either participate or not participate in the society. That is freedom. If she chooses to exercise that freedom and not participate in society, she should forego using the common resources afforded to her by the society (e.g. roads, common areas, other taxpayer funded facilities etc. etc. etc.). To the extent that she wants to use public resources, she should be mindful of not infringing on other's freedoms in a reckless and wanton manner. She is not the only person in the society with freedoms, other's have freedoms and rights too!

This basic concept of personal responsibility was very common in American culture till about  1970's, and was replaced with freeloading in the libertarian circles starting about the time of Ayn Rand. Not sure how it was/is in Canada.
You are of course entirely right about personal responsibility.  But you seem not to be making allowances for someone with significant, life-long mental health disabilities such a Wrenchturner's family member.  Allowances are made for people with physical disabilities which make mask-wearing difficult or impossible, it is only equitable to make equivalent allowances for people with mental disabilities.  Sadly the social and practical difficulties for people with mental disabilities are too often invisible and ignored.

You're right, a compassionate society must make allowances for disability.

Bump - So my parents are at the trump rally at capital hill.

Did they storm the buildings?

KarefulKactus15

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #181 on: January 06, 2021, 04:02:13 PM »
No they stayed close but behind the barriers.

The fact that they drove so far and took off work to be there is concerning though.

Maybe by February all this will be over.... I hope so anyway.

SwordGuy

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #182 on: January 06, 2021, 04:05:59 PM »
Bump - So my parents are at the trump rally at capital hill.

There's enough social media and selfies and security cameras that if they've broken federal laws they're likely to be caught and prosecuted.


RetiredAt63

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #183 on: January 06, 2021, 04:48:40 PM »
Bump - So my parents are at the trump rally at capital hill.

There's enough social media and selfies and security cameras that if they've broken federal laws they're likely to be caught and prosecuted.

And there is always Covid to make these things worse.

SwordGuy

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #184 on: January 06, 2021, 04:52:03 PM »
Bump - So my parents are at the trump rally at capital hill.

There's enough social media and selfies and security cameras that if they've broken federal laws they're likely to be caught and prosecuted.

And there is always Covid to make these things worse.

Sorry to be such a downer...

RetiredAt63

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #185 on: January 06, 2021, 04:53:36 PM »
Bump - So my parents are at the trump rally at capital hill.

There's enough social media and selfies and security cameras that if they've broken federal laws they're likely to be caught and prosecuted.

And there is always Covid to make these things worse.

Sorry to be such a downer...

Downer is my base status these days.  Sorry.

Imma

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #186 on: January 06, 2021, 05:06:22 PM »
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.

SwordGuy

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #187 on: January 06, 2021, 05:15:59 PM »
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.

So were the Nazis.

See, here are some nice, fun loving folks on a picnic after a hard spell of duty at Auschwitz.   Just ordinary folks committing genocide at work...

Not a defense in my book.

Imma

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #188 on: January 06, 2021, 05:50:19 PM »
I'm so sorry. I don't even know what else to say. It's the middle of the night where I live and I just feel so bad for you. It's easy to call these people "domestic terrorists" but these are ordinary folks, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, who are being misled by their own cult leader/ President.

So were the Nazis.

See, here are some nice, fun loving folks on a picnic after a hard spell of duty at Auschwitz.   Just ordinary folks committing genocide at work...

Not a defense in my book.

Yes, so were the nazi's. I'm from that corner of the world. My family were not nazi supporters, some actively fought nazi occupation. But nazi supporters were often ordinary people with ordinary problems who were ignored by politicians. It's always the same. That's why we should be very aware of these movements, because it can go terribly wrong. But we should also offer these people a real alternative, not just a bunch of words.

My great-grandparents shared a house with a family who were actual Nazi Party members - they had shared that house for years before the nazi's emerged, they didn't seek them out One of their sons I think even died fighting for the Germans in the east. My grandmother always felt very sorry for them as they were clearly brainwashed.

All of my grandparents had great compassion for the brainwashed group, even though they hated the fanatical nazi's. They saw young boys of their age serving in the Wehrmacht and knew that had they been born in a different place, it would have been them. They knew the kind of propaganda those kids had been exposed to.

The current situation is also the result of decades of lies, propaganda and political extremism. I don't see a big difference between religious and political cults. They both suck people in and they lose their minds. Trump is just another leader of a Doomsday cult to me.

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #189 on: January 06, 2021, 06:59:59 PM »
I am not calling my parents tonight. And possibly not for the next few days either. I just can't deal with it.

Adventine

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #190 on: January 06, 2021, 07:01:49 PM »
I am so sorry for all the posters who have to deal with family and friends who believe this Trumpian @#?!# and are destabilizing the US with their ignorance.

bmjohnson35

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #191 on: January 06, 2021, 07:13:20 PM »
If you have ever read studies about "mob mentality," it's crazy what people do during circumstances of this nature.  I've never understood standing in line for hours to get tickets to see a celebrity, let alone driving 100's of miles to participate in a political demonstration and allowing myself to loose control of reasonable judgement. 

It's surprising we are only hearing about a single fatality.  The police were in an impossible situation.  Questioned about how so many protestors got so far into the capital.  Under extreme critical review for any potential signs of obsessive force, considering all of the negative publicity in recent times.  A no-win difficult situation. 

bacchi

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #192 on: January 06, 2021, 07:23:11 PM »
I am not calling my parents tonight. And possibly not for the next few days either. I just can't deal with it.

Same. I fear what they'll say and how I'll have to dance around to avoid discussing it with them.

SwordGuy

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #193 on: January 06, 2021, 07:47:18 PM »
I am not calling my parents tonight. And possibly not for the next few days either. I just can't deal with it.

Same. I fear what they'll say and how I'll have to dance around to avoid discussing it with them.

I was just bluntly factual with mine.   "You are saying things that are not true.  I'll be glad to provide evidence to back that up.  And I'm ashamed that you are being racists.   You raised me better than that.   Please do not talk like that in my presence again."   

It was never appreciated but after a couple of times they got the message and mostly kept their mouth shut.


Luck12

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #194 on: January 06, 2021, 08:29:33 PM »
It's surprising we are only hearing about a single fatality.  The police were in an impossible situation.  Questioned about how so many protestors got so far into the capital.  Under extreme critical review for any potential signs of obsessive force, considering all of the negative publicity in recent times.  A no-win difficult situation.

Naw Fuck the police!   Funny how they refrain from using excessive force when white right wing terrorists breach the Capitol in a baseless coup but happily tear gassed and beat the shit out of peaceful protestors and journalists last year. 

OtherJen

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #195 on: January 06, 2021, 08:38:46 PM »
It's surprising we are only hearing about a single fatality.  The police were in an impossible situation.  Questioned about how so many protestors got so far into the capital.  Under extreme critical review for any potential signs of obsessive force, considering all of the negative publicity in recent times.  A no-win difficult situation.

Naw Fuck the police!   Funny how they refrain from using excessive force when white right wing terrorists breach the Capitol in a baseless coup but happily tear gassed and beat the shit out of peaceful protestors and journalists last year.

^^^THIS. And last summer's protestors didn't even storm and deface  the Capitol.

jehovasfitness23

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #196 on: January 06, 2021, 09:16:06 PM »
I think we just found out what damage fake news can do

One Noisy Cat

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #197 on: January 07, 2021, 05:33:52 AM »
“Who says protests have to be peaceful and polite?” Chris Cuomo, CNN June 2020

My parents were stupid enough to believe the lies of the “New York Times”, which let Jayson Blair make up stories because he had a black skin. I left them in their delusions

KarefulKactus15

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #198 on: January 07, 2021, 07:15:17 AM »
I am not calling my parents tonight. And possibly not for the next few days either. I just can't deal with it.

Same. I fear what they'll say and how I'll have to dance around to avoid discussing it with them.

I was just bluntly factual with mine.   "You are saying things that are not true.  I'll be glad to provide evidence to back that up.  And I'm ashamed that you are being racists.   You raised me better than that.   Please do not talk like that in my presence again."   

It was never appreciated but after a couple of times they got the message and mostly kept their mouth shut.

I tried the "that isn't true and can provide evidence" route.

But if they genuinely believe everything but their source is false it doesn't matter. 

I find it improbable that the 40 stories and versions of events all match each other and are wrong compared to their single source that contradicts the other 40 or so.    Buuuut - it's a lost cause.   I'm glad that worked for you. 

I also said the we need to stop talking about politics or not talk any more. 

jehovasfitness23

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #199 on: January 07, 2021, 07:16:38 AM »
“Who says protests have to be peaceful and polite?” Chris Cuomo, CNN June 2020

My parents were stupid enough to believe the lies of the “New York Times”, which let Jayson Blair make up stories because he had a black skin. I left them in their delusions

Yeah totally the same thing, JFC