Author Topic: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)  (Read 15200 times)

Bateaux

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2017, 10:02:35 AM »
Greenblatt I think I have a place in mind for you.  Do you have a Ronald MacDonald House nearby?  They are places simular to an extended stay hotel for the families of sick children. I'm the parent of a cancer survivor.  We've used RMDH while our son was receiving treatment for cancer.  There are other such places near children's hospitals.  Ask them about volunteering.  Please.  Do it as a favor to those of use that turned to them in time of need.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2017, 10:03:15 AM »
Quote
Hi joon. I didn't say it does or doesn't matter based on what you believe, I said it does or doesn't matter based on reality. If God is God, then humans have their value established by their creator. If this is all a random sequence of events, then there is no logical argument for why doing good for others matters. Now, you're correct, it is rewarding, and I would argue that there is a reason for that. But, if people are literally nothing but a sentient clump of cells then saying that doing good for others matters is like saying doing good for robots would be important if they gained sentience -- they'd still just be electronics and code.

See the difference? It's an important one.

I'm not trying to start a debate, I'm trying to help the OP.

I understand your belief. I disagree with it. I, too, don't wish to create a philosophical debate on the OP's thread about how to find meaning. You and I both feel that some of us can finding meaning in helping others. We disagree on what else must be involved. That's okay.

FIREySkyline

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2017, 10:03:58 AM »
I'm not trying to start a debate, I'm trying to help the OP.
See, the thing is, I don't think telling OP they HAVE to have kids or their life is meaningless or they HAVE to find religion or their life is meaningless is at all helpful.
I laid it out pretty logically. It's not what you think or feel that determines truth, and you're not the one currently expressing that you have gotten to the point in life where you are questioning your purpose. Let's let the OP decide whether this perspective is helpful.

FIREySkyline

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2017, 10:05:23 AM »
Quote
Hi joon. I didn't say it does or doesn't matter based on what you believe, I said it does or doesn't matter based on reality. If God is God, then humans have their value established by their creator. If this is all a random sequence of events, then there is no logical argument for why doing good for others matters. Now, you're correct, it is rewarding, and I would argue that there is a reason for that. But, if people are literally nothing but a sentient clump of cells then saying that doing good for others matters is like saying doing good for robots would be important if they gained sentience -- they'd still just be electronics and code.

See the difference? It's an important one.

I'm not trying to start a debate, I'm trying to help the OP.

I understand your belief. I disagree with it. I, too, don't wish to create a philosophical debate on the OP's thread about how to find meaning. You and I both feel that some of us can finding meaning in helping others. We disagree on what else must be involved. That's okay.
Word.

PhilB

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2017, 10:37:07 AM »
OP you clearly have a choice here.  Try and work out what will give meaning and purpose to you personally, or pick a religion at random and let them explain it all for you.  On the downside you'll get an answer that may not be particularly tailored to you personally, but on the upside you do get to avoid all that tedious rational thought.

LifeHappens

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2017, 10:42:25 AM »
I'm not trying to start a debate, I'm trying to help the OP.
See, the thing is, I don't think telling OP they HAVE to have kids or their life is meaningless or they HAVE to find religion or their life is meaningless is at all helpful.
I laid it out pretty logically. It's not what you think or feel that determines truth, and you're not the one currently expressing that you have gotten to the point in life where you are questioning your purpose. Let's let the OP decide whether this perspective is helpful.
You laid it out in a way that conforms to a certain belief system. Calling this "logical" is merely labeling it within your world view.

OP you clearly have a choice here.  Try and work out what will give meaning and purpose to you personally, or pick a religion at random and let them explain it all for you.  On the downside you'll get an answer that may not be particularly tailored to you personally, but on the upside you do get to avoid all that tedious rational thought.
I LOL'd. A bit blunt, but you get your point across!

FIREySkyline

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2017, 10:54:10 AM »
OP you clearly have a choice here.  Try and work out what will give meaning and purpose to you personally, or pick a religion at random and let them explain it all for you.  On the downside you'll get an answer that may not be particularly tailored to you personally, but on the upside you do get to avoid all that tedious rational thought.
Punchy and humorous? Yes. Evidence of rational superiority? Lacking. I have extensively examined the rationale behind my beliefs and have refused to accept any status quo in my journey. I see little such rational discourse or thought in modern western society.

PhilB

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2017, 11:10:11 AM »
OP you clearly have a choice here.  Try and work out what will give meaning and purpose to you personally, or pick a religion at random and let them explain it all for you.  On the downside you'll get an answer that may not be particularly tailored to you personally, but on the upside you do get to avoid all that tedious rational thought.
Punchy and humorous? Yes. Evidence of rational superiority? Lacking. I have extensively examined the rationale behind my beliefs and have refused to accept any status quo in my journey. I see little such rational discourse or thought in modern western society.
I definitely agree with you about a widespread lack of rational discourse (Shiny! Want it NOW!), but I'm afraid I do find that those who argue for the rationality of their religious beliefs, usually fail to have fully grasped the logical difference between a valid argument and a sound one.

Mr. Green

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2017, 11:10:38 AM »
I have struggled with this question myself since my first attempt at FIRE last year. I believe it can be the most difficult issue one faces in his life, particularly if you're an introvert. Our identities are made up of the things we do, and work is a big part of that. For someone who does not have a bunch of other focuses outside of work, cutting out work can feel like the loss of your identity. I believe one must cultivate new hobbies and interests if he is to be successful in the transition. I FIREd without many hobbies or interests and I have paid the price for it.

Some folks are never able to make the transition. That's okay too. Everyone's life is a separate journey that is unique. Maybe trying to make the transition causes you more stress than keeping a job and you ultimately decide you find it more enjoyable to work and allow FI to simply give you more flexibility.

The hard part is that no one can tell you what the right move is. That part is all on you. I have at times wished someone could just make the choice for me and I'd do whatever it is they said. That indecision and fear can really wreck havoc in your life if you let it. I try to always remember that no matter what, I do have the power to make the choice. Maybe it's going back to work to feel safe again and try something different the second go around. There is never a reason that you can take a step back if you need to.

ol1970

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2017, 02:38:00 PM »
Without kids you probably wont find much enjoyment or purpose in life.  Its just how it is.  More and more people are dying along due to being a DINK.  Sounds great when you're younger but later in life you'll regret it.

This cracks me up, I love when people project their values or what's important or brings happiness onto others.  Religion is another great one...you'll never be happy unless you accept Jesus Christ as your savior.  In my experience these are the people who are either jealous or clueless. 

I'm 46 and have absolutely zero regrets not having children...people want different things in their lives and it doesn't mean they are right or wrong, just different.  I think its great because that's what makes the world go around.  Henry Ford nearly had a coronary and fired his son when he suggested that they start painting cars another color than black because that's the color HE thought all cars should be...thankfully there are people out there who have different talents and thoughts and priorities or the world would be a pretty boring place.

As far the OP's question goes here is what I suggest: after taking a month or two off, ask yourself what were the best 10 days of the last 10 years of your life.  They could be anything...hiking, traveling, volunteering, doing some craze ironman event, hanging with friends, boating, hell even working.  For me it was being on the water...so I learned to sail.  I took lessons, got my captains certification and now can go charter anywhere in the world.   I'm 3 years into retirement now and just returned from a few weeks sailing in a beautiful tropical location with my amazing Swedish girlfriend who loves doing the same type of stuff.  At no point did it occur to me that I'd rather be sitting in an office or for that matter how depressing my life is or will be because I have not reproduced.  Find your calling...and get busy living!

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2017, 02:44:24 PM »
...after taking a month or two off, ask yourself what were the best 10 days of the last 10 years of your life.

ol1970, what a fantastic idea! And I adore your story :)

Greenblatt

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2017, 05:22:52 AM »
The hard part is that no one can tell you what the right move is. That part is all on you. I have at times wished someone could just make the choice for me and I'd do whatever it is they said. That indecision and fear can really wreck havoc in your life if you let it. I try to always remember that no matter what, I do have the power to make the choice. Maybe it's going back to work to feel safe again and try something different the second go around. There is never a reason that you can take a step back if you need to.

+1 to that. I so wish there was a recipe to follow : do X, Y than Z for an happy, healthy, meaningful life. Fear is the worst. I need to work on that. Thank you for your comment.

Schaefer Light

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #62 on: October 18, 2017, 08:22:46 AM »
The hard part is that no one can tell you what the right move is. That part is all on you. I have at times wished someone could just make the choice for me and I'd do whatever it is they said. That indecision and fear can really wreck havoc in your life if you let it. I try to always remember that no matter what, I do have the power to make the choice. Maybe it's going back to work to feel safe again and try something different the second go around. There is never a reason that you can take a step back if you need to.

+1 to that. I so wish there was a recipe to follow : do X, Y than Z for an happy, healthy, meaningful life. Fear is the worst. I need to work on that. Thank you for your comment.

I think that's one of the big reasons being a kid was so easy compared to being an adult.  As a kid, you basically had to do what your parents and teachers wanted you to do.  Go to class, study, do your homework, go to practice, graduate from high school, go to college, make good grades, graduate, start applying for jobs, etc.  Once you're out in the real world, the choices about how to spend your time become much more difficult. 

Do I stay in this high-paying job that I don't really like or should I be spending my time trying to find a new job that I might dislike just as much?  Should I be trying to learn a new skill, and if so, what skill?  What skills will be in demand and make use of my natural talents and might lead to a job that I would enjoy or that might pay just as well?  Most days, I don't feel like I'm working towards anything (except FIRE) and I constantly feel like I'm not making the best use of my time.  It drives me nuts, but I don't know where to start.  There is no plan or blueprint to follow like there was when I was a kid.  Sometimes I wish I had taken more time in my teenage or college years to really decide what I wanted to do with my life.  Back then, I just wanted to make good grades and have a good time before entering the workforce.  I didn't spend much time thinking about the future.  But then, maybe that's why those years were so much fun and if I stopped thinking about the future I could enjoy my present situation more.

mubington

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2017, 09:58:03 AM »
This thread reminded me of a blog post I read recently:

http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2017/04/07/is-it-okay-if-i-dont-want-kids/

I don't agree with much of the post, but it is entertaining in its bluntness, and kinda thought provoking.
 
Without fulfilling work or kids, life can be a bit empty, so the post argues.  Most people tend to fill the day with either career or children or both.

She also suggests that a craving for a childfree life might be a sign of a subconscious longing for a more fulfilling career.  And kinda discounts travel, socialising and hobbies as weighty enough categories to fill the gap too.

So kind of the opposite to MMM.

For me, I think it is certainly possible to find meaning outside of career or kids, but it is probably not going to be the simplest or most documented path.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 01:43:11 PM by mubington »

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2017, 10:07:08 AM »
I think that's one of the big reasons being a kid was so easy compared to being an adult.  As a kid, you basically had to do what your parents and teachers wanted you to do.  Go to class, study, do your homework, go to practice, graduate from high school, go to college, make good grades, graduate, start applying for jobs, etc.  Once you're out in the real world, the choices about how to spend your time become much more difficult.  [...] There is no plan or blueprint to follow like there was when I was a kid.

For me adulthood has been a gazillion times easier -psychologically, emotionally, and physically- for exactly these reasons. As a kid, I was always "Ack, why are the adults trying to do me in with their schedules and excess and crowded rooms and early days and indoctrination and wastes of time???"

As an adult, I get to choose a life that is meaningful to me, that has value.

I agree with everyone that what's meaningful is different for each, and that we each need to do our own work of figuring out what makes it so. I think some resources that could be helpful in this journey are: counselling, vision boards, SoulCollage, books like What Color is Your Parachute, enneagram and Myers-Briggs* explorations, career counselling programs (can lead you to excellent volunteer contributions too), local volunteer center.

*Not a religion, not an ordinance. Just a tool for helping shift perspective, which can lead to helpful insight.

Noodle

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2017, 11:28:14 AM »
I don't know that I have anything to contribute on the "meaning of life" front, but I have been doing some reading for the day job that might help address the "I have no interests/hobbies" question (which may solve the bigger issue.)

I am reading some research by educational psychologists about the process of going from a "passing interest" to a "serious passion" and why this happens with some interests but not others. They argue that people typically go through four stages, beginning with having their attention caught, to spending more time with the interest but still needing a lot of help and support to pursue it, to being able to pursue it more independently, to being an expert. (I am seriously paraphrasing 150 pages of dense text, so please forgive). My guess with a lot of people who don't feel like they have interests is that they never transition from stage one to stage two, or they play around in stage two a bit but never move through it. (The research also says that it's easy for things to go off the rails here.) It's not until stage three that people would usually identify themselves as having X as a hobby. So one thing you might try--when something catches your eye, try more specifically to make plans to pursue it, even if you have to push back against your inner introvert to take a class or join a group. You can go back to being your independent introverted self once you're a little better at whatever it is! Or if one thing doesn't work out--the guitar teacher turns out to be a bust, for instance--make a deal with yourself that you'll try three approaches before you decide the guitar isn't for you. (If you really never find anything interesting, you should check with your doctor. Humans are hardwired to look for and enjoy finding interesting things, and not doing that may indicate brain chemistry issues. But I am guessing that is not the case here.)

The other thing is to ask yourself if you really have no interests or hobbies, or if they just aren't something you are willing to admit to yourself/on the MMM boards. I mean, watching television or following a sports team or eating out can be a hobby, even if it's not considered by society or these boards to be a "good" hobby, and take up substantial time which would explain why it's hard to get started with something else. The research I was reading also made the point that people typically have 4-5 interests at a time, but these could also be professional or family-based (ie, researching child-rearing advice, or how to assist a special-needs child) so if you have a few slots already taken, there's less room for the "fun" ones. Anyway, all food for thought...

bacchi

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2017, 12:54:29 PM »
This thread reminded me of a blog post I read recently:

http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2017/04/07/is-it-okay-if-i-dont-want-kids/


Good gods, that blog post shows some serious lack of creativity.

Quote from: penelopetrunk
This is all to say that everyone’s life needs to be about something.

I wonder if helicopter parenting created this generational ennui.

TempusFugit

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #67 on: October 18, 2017, 05:29:12 PM »
...so I learned to sail.  I took lessons, got my captains certification and now can go charter anywhere in the world.   I'm 3 years into retirement now and just returned from a few weeks sailing in a beautiful tropical location with my amazing Swedish girlfriend who loves doing the same type of stuff.  At no point did it occur to me that I'd rather be sitting in an office or for that matter how depressing my life is or will be because I have not reproduced.  Find your calling...and get busy living!

ol1970 - This topic piqued my curiosity because I've been thinking taking up cruising. A couple years ago I got my keel boat cert (a four day course) but I haven't done anything since.  I think the logical next course to take (after a refresher on the basics) would be a cruising course (live aboard type stuff).   I took a peek at some of your other posts about sailing / boating.  What path did you take to get your captains cert?  In what part of the country did you learn?   

One thing that gives me pause about the idea of a cruising lifestyle post FIRE is that I'm single, and wouldn't want to sail single-handed all the time.  Did you start off your sailing adventures with a significant other or good friends or single handed?
 

Moustachienne

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #68 on: October 18, 2017, 09:03:59 PM »
This research sounds really interesting.  Any authors/readings to recommend?

A few years ago I read about "developing interests" activities for at risk teenagers but haven't been able to refind my citations.  Apparently and understandably, teenagers with strong interests in hobbies and projects were less likely to get involved with boredom driven activities like drugs and petty crime.   As we get older, swap in "alcohol, fast food, TV, and internet surfing."  :(

I don't know that I have anything to contribute on the "meaning of life" front, but I have been doing some reading for the day job that might help address the "I have no interests/hobbies" question (which may solve the bigger issue.)

I am reading some research by educational psychologists about the process of going from a "passing interest" to a "serious passion" and why this happens with some interests but not others. They argue that people typically go through four stages, beginning with having their attention caught, to spending more time with the interest but still needing a lot of help and support to pursue it, to being able to pursue it more independently, to being an expert. (I am seriously paraphrasing 150 pages of dense text, so please forgive). My guess with a lot of people who don't feel like they have interests is that they never transition from stage one to stage two, or they play around in stage two a bit but never move through it. (The research also says that it's easy for things to go off the rails here.) It's not until stage three that people would usually identify themselves as having X as a hobby. So one thing you might try--when something catches your eye, try more specifically to make plans to pursue it, even if you have to push back against your inner introvert to take a class or join a group. You can go back to being your independent introverted self once you're a little better at whatever it is! Or if one thing doesn't work out--the guitar teacher turns out to be a bust, for instance--make a deal with yourself that you'll try three approaches before you decide the guitar isn't for you. (If you really never find anything interesting, you should check with your doctor. Humans are hardwired to look for and enjoy finding interesting things, and not doing that may indicate brain chemistry issues. But I am guessing that is not the case here.)

The other thing is to ask yourself if you really have no interests or hobbies, or if they just aren't something you are willing to admit to yourself/on the MMM boards. I mean, watching television or following a sports team or eating out can be a hobby, even if it's not considered by society or these boards to be a "good" hobby, and take up substantial time which would explain why it's hard to get started with something else. The research I was reading also made the point that people typically have 4-5 interests at a time, but these could also be professional or family-based (ie, researching child-rearing advice, or how to assist a special-needs child) so if you have a few slots already taken, there's less room for the "fun" ones. Anyway, all food for thought...

Noodle

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #69 on: October 19, 2017, 08:48:10 AM »
This research sounds really interesting.  Any authors/readings to recommend?

I came across the reference in "Learn Better" by Ulrich Boser, which I highly recommend...it is a very readable overview of recent research into learning and has good ideas for anyone who is studying/teaching/training. The specific research is discussed in "The Power of Interest for Motivation and Engagement" by K. Ann Renninger and Suzanne Hidi. However, a lot of the latter book is a review of other people's research in the field, so it may be possible to find research articles where the findings I referenced are discussed more specifically.

Moustachienne

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Re: How to find meaning and purpose in FIRE? (40yo no kid)
« Reply #70 on: October 19, 2017, 05:50:14 PM »
Great, thanks!

This research sounds really interesting.  Any authors/readings to recommend?

I came across the reference in "Learn Better" by Ulrich Boser, which I highly recommend...it is a very readable overview of recent research into learning and has good ideas for anyone who is studying/teaching/training. The specific research is discussed in "The Power of Interest for Motivation and Engagement" by K. Ann Renninger and Suzanne Hidi. However, a lot of the latter book is a review of other people's research in the field, so it may be possible to find research articles where the findings I referenced are discussed more specifically.

 

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