Author Topic: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?  (Read 6037 times)

duyen

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How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« on: June 21, 2020, 11:21:57 PM »
We mustachians live frugally, save & invest and quit and continue to live a stress free but frugal / simple life. I love this lifestyle and I am a born mustachian with all these qualities. My wife is a YOLO. We have some relatives and friends who bought big homes and plan to work for ever.

I have saved up enough money that I could go the same path and buy bigger houses than them but my work life gets extended (10 years instead of 5 years). Whenever we meet them or talk to them it feels we are not measuring up to them and feel "poorer" despite having higher networth. They on the other hand are spending all of the paycheck and will work till SS kicks in and will lead a "richer" life.

How did you guys deal with this kind of comparison / jealousy? It could be with colleagues (getting the next promo) or relatives or friends. How did you deal with the emotions around quitting the rat race

Freedomin5

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2020, 11:26:32 PM »
I do it by reminding myself of the blessings that come with my lifestyle and by not comparing. Comparison is the thief of joy.

chesebert

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2020, 11:26:56 PM »
The more you have the less of a fuck you give. Keep calm and carry on.

Zikoris

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2020, 11:36:10 PM »
I think the first step is being honest with yourself about what you genuinely want in life. Step 2 is structuring your life in a way that you get what you truly want, to the best of your ability.

I can tell you that as someone who 100% does not like big houses, toys, careers, and most consumer stuff, I don't feel any kind of jealousy or negative feelings towards other people who have or want those things. I think that if you still feel jealousy or a desire for those types of things, you should use it as a learning experience. Dig into it. Those feelings are giving you insight into something about yourself. Basically, make sure you really know what you want, and that the path you're on is the one you really truly want. That last thing you want it to spend a lot of time and energy working towards a lifestyle that isn't even your ideal.

ROF Expat

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2020, 01:16:30 AM »
I think you and your spouse need to talk and get on the same page about what you want out of life.  It might involve your wife compromising a little on her YOLO attitude, or you working a little longer and/or compromising on frugality.  Or both.  Or something else. 

If you haven't already done so, I would suggest reading "The Millionaire Next Door."  One of the main premises is that economic independence (the ability to live off your own assets for many years or even your whole life) is a much better measure of wealth than having a lot of "stuff" (which might not even be paid for and is probably depreciating).  In most cases it is about making a choice between actually having wealth or just the appearance of wealth.  When you see your friends living a "richer" life now, one question you should ask yourself is how their lifestyles will look after they retire?  There are a lot of people living on SS today who regret the financial choices they made when they were still working. 

BTW, it is also possible that some of your friends or relatives just have more money than you do.  Maybe they earn more than they're letting on.  Maybe they inherited money or get financial support from parents.  There will always be some people who have more than you do, and probably more who have less.  Either way, comparison is probably not a healthy base for self-image or happiness


Bloop Bloop

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2020, 01:23:24 AM »
It is possible to analyse it rationally: you are planning for the long-term; they are frittering it away in the short-term. Long-term contentedness will usually trump short term splurging.  A lot of materialistic consumption just reflects people's insecurities. Blah blah blah.

Though the above is true, it rings a little hollow because it still requires you to compare yourself to others. "I am more rational. I am happier." And I don't think that's how life works. And that's why I really dislike the preachy tone of MMM (and other lifestyle blogs) sometimes. It's still predicated on winning and losing, or at least being better or more efficient or more virtuous.

In many areas of life, like salaries, or healthcare spending, comparison is a good thing, and an important thing. But when it comes to individual happiness, comparison is a bad thing. It will slowly eat you up, because in order to "win" - to be more outwardly happy, or rich, or healthy, or efficient - you have to use up a lot of mental space. You're constantly guarding your kingdom. Yes, this applies even if your desired goal is a bike-happy, FIRE-blessed lifestyle.

So, the best way to deal with the rat race is to exhibit compassion and self-compassion. Everyone out there is running a tough race of his or her own. Instead of judging them, try to find commonality where you can, and take a generous view of their "shortcomings". I think that you will find that most people are doing their best in their own way, even those selfish, materialistic people: their lifestyle reflects their own struggles.

By viewing life through the lens of that commonality you are no longer having to compete with others because life is not a game or a contest to be won. But more importantly, you are no longer having to compete with that voice in your own head that says "you could do better". The real benefit of being compassionate towards others is that you will be compassionate towards yourself. And that will lead to happiness.

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iris lily

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2020, 06:59:42 AM »
The more you have the less of a fuck you give. Keep calm and carry on.

Yes, this.

It also helps to have a couple of frugal-by-choice friends spread thru your group of friends. With those guys you can have conversations about investing, savings rates, you know, the financial stuff that interests you that is not of that much interest to the general group.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2020, 07:50:55 AM »
We mustachians live frugally, save & invest and quit and continue to live a stress free but frugal / simple life. I love this lifestyle and I am a born mustachian with all these qualities. My wife is a YOLO. We have some relatives and friends who bought big homes and plan to work for ever.

I have saved up enough money that I could go the same path and buy bigger houses than them but my work life gets extended (10 years instead of 5 years). Whenever we meet them or talk to them it feels we are not measuring up to them and feel "poorer" despite having higher networth. They on the other hand are spending all of the paycheck and will work till SS kicks in and will lead a "richer" life.

How did you guys deal with this kind of comparison / jealousy? It could be with colleagues (getting the next promo) or relatives or friends. How did you deal with the emotions around quitting the rat race

Sounds like you need to be far more specific about your priorities. Why do you feel poorer in comparison to them? How are they leading a richer life? Maybe you and your wife should sit down and actually make a list of your values, so you can look at your friend's large house and say to yourself 'this has cost them x years of working that I don't have to pay, and in the meantime I have the freedom that they will never be able to afford". The real difference between them and you right now seems to be that they are totally content with their choices, while you are comparing yourself to others.

ChickenStash

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2020, 07:59:48 AM »
Perhaps reevaluating your life's priorities is order. Do you really want the big house, the fancy cars, and the extravagant vacations? Do you feel these would significantly enhance your life in the long term? If the answer is yes, then maybe you should look into buying them. If not, then why bother being concerned about it?

I've never viewed Mustachianism as a race to see who can spend the least and retire the soonest at all costs. To steal from a post I read on here some time ago, it's about trying to live your best life, whatever that means to you (I can't recall who said that). It's about not wasting time or money on things that don't move one closer to their "best life". If a big house is really that important, by all means, buy it. Just go in with eyes open knowing that it will probably delay other important goals, like FIRE. That's not a bad thing if the improvement the purchase brings outweighs the cost of the delay.

For me, my best life includes "fancy" sports cars. According to most posts here, I should be taken out and shot for such heresy. But, for me, it is an enjoyable hobby that provides much needed stress relief and enjoyment. Any purchase I make is weighed against my other goals, like FIRE, and if it measures up then I go for it.

tygertygertyger

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2020, 08:34:00 AM »
I'm glad you posted about this, OP. My partner and I had planned to buy a house this year, and I had nice thoughts about living in our own house, with a hammock in the backyard this summer, with plenty of space for projects during upcoming Pandemic 2.0 (this Fall/Winter). But, we didn't find a place. Then we worried that by giving notice at our current apartment, we might still not find a place to live and then end up having to move in with family/friends for an unknown duration. Did I mention that we have a large dog that would make it extra difficult to live with friends/family in their cat spaces?

So we're falling back on continuing to stay in our apartment for one more year, while the new family that moved in upstairs stomps around, children screaming, and apparently last night, the kids tried to climb out the back window? (Note: it's a nice family. They just have young children who are naturally loud, and apparently, daredevils since they live on the 3rd floor!)

Many of our friends have lovely large houses in our HCOL area. My partner and I definitely make less money than they do. But still, I do love our spacious apartment (noise from upstairs aside). I love that my partner and I take our dog on adventures every week to new parks and trails. I planted two blueberry bushes in pots yesterday so they'll be ready for fruiting next year (hopefully!). And we save enough that we'll still be able to have our dream, even if it looks a little different than even we imagined, or on a different timeline.

ixtap

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2020, 08:48:51 AM »
By being happy that my own choices are the right ones for me.

At the very beginning of our relationship, DH and I had a choice between his McMansion (his one criteria was a movie room, but it came with 5 bedrooms and a formal dining room) and my condo, which had the same listed sq ft as his master suite. Within weeks of moving into my condo, he said it felt more like home than his McMansion ever had. So, when anyone goes on about their home, we just hope it makes them happy.

Anytime you do feel the jealousy, talk about it. Are you just jealous about the bragging itself? Thinking about the things you are grateful for in your own life can help with that. It doesn't have to be a comparison. I am ridiculously grateful for my adjustable bed,  but I don't have any idea what most people have for a bed or what they think about it.

 Would owning or doing the thing make you happier than you are now? How about after you take into account the drawbacks and any sacrifices you might have to make?

undercover

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2020, 09:00:25 AM »
By recognizing all the luxury around you and taking comfort in the fact that you’re striving to live a more determined, less wasteful lifestyle than the majority of people around you.

Think of how extremely luxurious the thought of running water, electricity, and technology that connects you to everything that’s happening in the world would have sounded not even 150 years ago. Isn’t that insane? Just a few generations ago, no electricity in your home. Many people on this forum lived completely without Internet before it truly existed.

Obviously our definitions of “luxury” and “necessary” change over time. The thought of someone living without electricity today is unacceptable. But it’s because these are fundamental technological changes. Having a gigabit internet connection, while nice, isn’t fundamental in comparison to a 25Mbps connection. Having a nicer car, while nice, isn’t fundamental in the way having a car at all is. Having a larger home...you get it.

Let people waste their money and time in chasing things that don’t make them any happier or fundamentally change their life. Why would you envy that? If anything you should pity that sort of behavior as they’re most likely trying to fill a void that they can never fill. Sure, not everyone, and I wouldn’t automatically assume anyone who buys a nicer car or bigger house is trying to emotionally compensate or is wasting their money. Some people genuinely can afford to do those things because they are genuinely much wealthier than the average person and it won’t make much of a difference to them. But I also don’t think it makes them any happier.

If you start with the very real fact that you’re living “better” (in terms of comfort) than 95% of humans to have ever lived, it really makes anything on top of that feel a bit unnecessary - or, at the very least, a bonus. And we all know that the best life is not made from trying to be 100% comfortable all the time.

That said, there is no right or wrong way to live. Striving to constantly live a frugal and “good enough” life is not necessarily any more noble or correct than other ways of living. There is very real societal pressure to adopt certain lifestyles and we can’t pretend that doesn’t exist. As for your own situation, you don’t have a lot of direct control over it so it helps to just decide what you want and try to get it while at the same time be grateful for what you do have. If we as humans weren’t constantly dissatisfied, there would be no progress or change.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 09:16:02 AM by undercover »

dd564

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2020, 09:10:12 AM »
We mustachians live frugally, save & invest and quit and continue to live a stress free but frugal / simple life. I love this lifestyle and I am a born mustachian with all these qualities. My wife is a YOLO. We have some relatives and friends who bought big homes and plan to work for ever.

I have saved up enough money that I could go the same path and buy bigger houses than them but my work life gets extended (10 years instead of 5 years). Whenever we meet them or talk to them it feels we are not measuring up to them and feel "poorer" despite having higher networth. They on the other hand are spending all of the paycheck and will work till SS kicks in and will lead a "richer" life.

How did you guys deal with this kind of comparison / jealousy? It could be with colleagues (getting the next promo) or relatives or friends. How did you deal with the emotions around quitting the rat race

How do you know your friends plan to work forever?

Perhaps they are buying a large house now that they will downsize from in 20 years and use the proceeds to enable retirement?
Also, how do you know you have a higher networth?

Perhaps they make more than you thought or had more money coming out of college than you did?


ambimammular

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2020, 09:11:11 AM »
It's natural to compare your situation to others like you. I think that's why I try to spend time on this forum, so you all are my chosen peer group. Rather than the vacations (yay airline miles) and big houses (I can barely keep up with the one I've got) of the larger population, I end up comparing myself to other mustachians' savings rates and debt payoffs.

It keeps my head in the game.


BikeFanatic

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2020, 09:16:17 AM »
I would add that I had friends recently that always talked about money and had everything new, and nice clothing and they did affect me and I did buy some new clothing and did buy some new furniture so I would feel more comfortable entertaining, went out to dinner with them at expensive places, then finally said WTF am I doing? All they do is brag they went to this concert or this play, or this restaurant who cares. We naturally drifted away from then and they tried to rekindle recently and I discussed with my wife that they were bad influence on me. I was tired of the money talk and the competition with them! Now we are making new friends with more down to earth people who can have you over for lunch versus going out to a bar or worse. 
Now I am trying to pick down to earth people that do not appear wealthy, even if they are. They all want to do cheap and simple entertaining like cook outs or biking. I can’t tell you what a relief it is not to have that kind of keeping up with the Jones pressure.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2020, 09:53:59 AM »
We mustachians live frugally, save & invest and quit and continue to live a stress free but frugal / simple life. I love this lifestyle and I am a born mustachian with all these qualities. My wife is a YOLO. We have some relatives and friends who bought big homes and plan to work for ever.

I have saved up enough money that I could go the same path and buy bigger houses than them but my work life gets extended (10 years instead of 5 years). Whenever we meet them or talk to them it feels we are not measuring up to them and feel "poorer" despite having higher networth. They on the other hand are spending all of the paycheck and will work till SS kicks in and will lead a "richer" life.

How did you guys deal with this kind of comparison / jealousy? It could be with colleagues (getting the next promo) or relatives or friends. How did you deal with the emotions around quitting the rat race

How do you know your friends plan to work forever?

Perhaps they are buying a large house now that they will downsize from in 20 years and use the proceeds to enable retirement?
Also, how do you know you have a higher networth?

Perhaps they make more than you thought or had more money coming out of college than you did?

Yeah, if your happiness is contingent on always having a one-up on others - "oh, they live lavishly but I'll retire earlier; they waste their money on sports cars whereas I recycle and that makes me more virtuous" - then all you're doing is still dipping your feet in the invidious pool of comparison and envy. Some people make a lot of money doing an honest, skilled job and they are perfectly capable of spending it as they wish. And they might be genuinely happy!

That's why I think, as I said, you have to be happy on your own terms, without any sense of competition or needing to beat others. This is a hard thing to do, but it's the only way to truly find your own happiness. You will find more in common with your fellow men and women too if you're not trying to prove your own virtuousness over them.

nirodha

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2020, 10:43:27 AM »
The big house requires more care. It also introduces higher consumption neighbors, who will restart the cycle. It is an escalating spiral that leads to a fragile "balance". One bad event, and you are buried under crushing stress.

Opting out is the only way to win. The hardest moment of that strategy is today. You'll be more used to it tomorrow, have greater resources available, more options, etc. 5-10 years in, when the habits are solid, money becomes an "infinite" resource like water or air. Life tends to throw some bigger challenges as we age. Having that pool to build upon makes navigating them so much easier.

There are also some big benefits to keeping retirement income close to poverty level - reduced healthcare costs, lower capital gains taxes, etc. Much easier to do if your home is inexpensive.

Maenad

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2020, 11:17:07 AM »
If you have a tendency to compare yourself to others, you could also do something like volunteer at a soup kitchen or food bank. If you see people who are doing way worse than you on the materialism scale, maybe it'll help keep things in perspective, and help you appreciate what you have.

(Please note that this isn't to guilt-trip you, just to enlarge your mental scope of how you see people living, and maybe help you reset your definition of "enough".)

Laura33

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2020, 11:54:27 AM »
So when you say "we" are made to feel bad, what exactly do you mean?  Do you mean your wife feels bad and you'd like to persuade her not to spend more?  Do you mean you feel bad and want more nice things than you currently have?  Or do you mean your friends are often bragging or coming across as though they think they are better than you because they have nicer things?

If it's the last, the answer is simple:  your friends are doinks.  You need better friends.

If it's your wife, then maybe she's been going along with what you want and is feeling like she's missing out on some of the YOLO stuff she wants.  If that is the issue, read the "50 ways to convert your SO" thread, and while you're working on that, negotiate a compromise that lets her spend a little more on those nice things she wants.

If it's you, then first of all, know that that's normal.  Yes, there are some people -- many of them here -- who honestly don't give a shit about material stuff or social status.  But most people care to some degree.  We're just programmed to want the ShinyPretty.  Yeah, sure, it's society and marketing and all that, but it goes deeper than that.  When you have birds growing giant colorful plumes and animals growing giant showy horns, just so they can attract mates -- and when that entirely stupid and unnecessary show is actually tremendously successful over all recorded history -- there's some sort of deeply-entrenched programming going on that makes us susceptible to the big, showy, and impractical.*

The good news is that we are capable of higher-level thinking that most animals.  So unlike those animals, we can feel tempted by the BrightShiny, and then still decide that however pretty it is, we don't need it.  In fact, I was just having this talk with DD the other day, as she was deciding whether she needed a new pair of tennis shoes or a new wallet more, since her budget didn't extend to both.  She really put a lot of thought into it, and I told her after she had decided that I was proud of how she worked her way through it, because no matter how much money you make, there is *always* going to be something you can't afford, so you're *always* going to have to make a choice.

So how do we do this?  Well, here's what works for me:  I tell myself I can have it if I want.  That's it.  Of course, there are costs to that as well.  I mean, I could go buy a giant new house any time I want; I'd just have to go back to full-time work to afford it.  So I remind myself of that, too.  And then I think through how much I really want it, given those conditions. 

Usually my desire for ShinyPretty is completely divorced from reality -- that is, I want the ShinyPretty, AND I want my current lifestyle and giant firehose of free cash.  In other words, I want to win the lottery, so I can have it all.**  But when I bring that fantasy back down to the real world and frame it up as a choice, I almost always find out that even though I want the ShinyPretty, I don't want it enough to pay the price for it (either financial or lifestyle). 



*Total frolic and detour:  I think with animals, the whole point is that their showy thing IS impractical.  Because the signal they are sending is that they are so healthy, they have access to so much food, that their body can afford to expend the energy to grow this massive thing that is also entirely useless, so just imagine how strong their offspring will be. 

**Would probably help if I bought a ticket, though.

elaine amj

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2020, 12:03:46 PM »
For us, we spend on everything we really care about and cheap out on everything else. I have accepted that with our salaries, savings, work-life balance choices (DH didn't seek a promotion from the time the kids were babies until after the kids grew older and I got my career started), we have X much money to work with. With it, I could buy a fancy house or more fancy gadgets or a more fancy life - or I could buy my freedom. I am not a super minimalist. I am happy with a simple life but I admit there are times I would really like a fancier house or I would like some X fancy thing. But when I stop to think about it, I like my freedom a whole lot more. And really, I have everything I really want anyway so I never feel poor.

I have to admit sometimes I wonder how some people can afford everything they do. But the reality is I am me and I only know all the details of my own finances so I only know what I can afford. And we are happy with our choices so that's all that really matters in my book.

There have definitely been some aread where DH and I have had to negotiate.  He's happy with a bare bones house whereas I am willing to spend on a few things. On the other hand, our original FIRE budget was for frugal vacations. However, in the last few years he has had a decided penchant for more fancy vacations. Cabins/cottages instead of tent camping, eating out more rather than cooking in. So I compromised and his inheritance from his father has gone towards heavily padding our vacation budget.

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Fae

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2020, 01:14:44 PM »
-snip-

Usually my desire for ShinyPretty is completely divorced from reality -- that is, I want the ShinyPretty, AND I want my current lifestyle and giant firehose of free cash.  In other words, I want to win the lottery, so I can have it all.**  But when I bring that fantasy back down to the real world and frame it up as a choice, I almost always find out that even though I want the ShinyPretty, I don't want it enough to pay the price for it (either financial or lifestyle). 


+1 I was scrolling down to post something very similar. Typically, I find that what I want is the idealized version of the thing and not the actual thing itself.

For example, I love old Victorian mansions, I think they are absolutely gorgeous especially the ones with a large foyer and a sweeping staircase. I love the idea of living in one, the image of coming down those stairs in a pretty dress entices me, just like a scene from an old movie. But that's all it is, a superficial desire without any real substance. The second I start thing about the reality of living in an old Victorian house my brain goes "blech". The upkeep/maintenance, the troubles with heating/cooling, and the associated costs all make living in one seem like a chore to me. That doesn't stop the whimsical part of my brain from going "*sigh, Wouldn't it be nice to live there", every time I see a picture or go past one.

Like other posters have said, it's about truly knowing yourself and what you want. I think a lack of this is why so many people are stuck in the rat race. I bet if a poll was done; most non-mustachian people would say the same as everyone on this thread " only spend money on the things that make you truly happy, and don't compare yourself to others". Unfortunately, they don't know themselves well enough to tell the difference between a passing desire and a true want. So they end up spending their money on things they only think they want instead of focusing on the things they actually want.

duyen

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2020, 01:43:10 PM »
Thanks all for such wonderful replies. These thoughts of jealousy are partly mine, partly my wife's. My wife feels I am not thinking it right with this whole FIRE thing. We are ahead in terms of networth compared to most of our relatives and friends. Almost all of them bought houses. Yes some of them have inheritance but mostly they love working and feel they get bored without work and plan to do it till retirement.

My wife feels I am quitting at this high point and we will fall behind them. All these people were behind us but when they bought homes it felt like we were lagging behind. Nobody sees what networth we have in the bank. On the other hand a big home is clearly visible.

I know there is no end to this comparison and it will only leave us in false pride or disappointment. But at the same time it hurts whenever I see other people declare these houses and ask us why we are not buying etc. Unfortunately there is nothing that I can do and I need to focus on my priorities. The right thing for me to do is to focus on increasing my networth and based on how long I can pull this work thing add a home in the end. So my order of priorities

- Get my Freedom
- Be able to help kids a bit
- If I continue to work longer then think about buying a bigger home

phildonnia

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2020, 02:26:19 PM »
I used to deal with envy of other people's wealth and lifestyle by acting happy for them and secretly telling myself how they were going to be working into old age and constantly in a state of anxiety, and so on.  While I would be coasting comfortably through retirement on my frugality and won't they be sorry, and wonder how I did it.

It didn't work.  The "schadenfreude" approach only reinforces your own envy in your mind.

Here's what does work.  It takes some practice, but you have to honestly wish for and be happy with other people's success on their terms, while recognizing that their values are not yours.  Your mind learns that different people want different things from life, and there's no reason you shouldn't also make your own, different choices.  Everybody can win.


Laura33

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2020, 03:19:08 PM »
Thanks all for such wonderful replies. These thoughts of jealousy are partly mine, partly my wife's. My wife feels I am not thinking it right with this whole FIRE thing. We are ahead in terms of networth compared to most of our relatives and friends. Almost all of them bought houses. Yes some of them have inheritance but mostly they love working and feel they get bored without work and plan to do it till retirement.

My wife feels I am quitting at this high point and we will fall behind them. All these people were behind us but when they bought homes it felt like we were lagging behind. Nobody sees what networth we have in the bank. On the other hand a big home is clearly visible.

I know there is no end to this comparison and it will only leave us in false pride or disappointment. But at the same time it hurts whenever I see other people declare these houses and ask us why we are not buying etc. Unfortunately there is nothing that I can do and I need to focus on my priorities. The right thing for me to do is to focus on increasing my networth and based on how long I can pull this work thing add a home in the end. So my order of priorities

- Get my Freedom
- Be able to help kids a bit
- If I continue to work longer then think about buying a bigger home

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait.  You may not have meant it this way, but the combination of the two bolded passages is a recipe for a really unhappy relationship.  It sounds like she is not onboard with FIRE at all, and that you are unilaterally making the decision that that is what your family's priorities are.  Again:  that may not be what you meant, but it sounds like she is complaining to you because she doesn't feel like she is getting enough say in how much you guys spend and what you spend it on. 

If I'm close -- if you're feeling pressure from her to buy a house, for example -- then pay attention to that.  Not that you need to run out and buy something.  But you need to understand what she wants and why she wants it, and you need to see her goals and desires as just as important as your own, and you need to reach a compromise that gives both of you as much of what you want as possible. 

One of the most common themes I see here is that frugal people think being frugal is the best choice.  Which of course it is.  ;-)  But to non-frugal people, that comes across as your telling them that their priorities are less worthy, and that they are therefore stupid for wanting them.  And, really, no conversation has ever ended well when it starts like that.  Take it from someone who is almost 25 years into a marriage with a VERY non-frugal person:  the only way to make the relationship last is if you treat their wants and goals as just as important as your own -- not because the specific things they want are good/bad, but simply because they matter to your partner.

mathlete

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2020, 03:42:21 PM »
People like to talk about themselves. This is an immutable fact of nature. Lots of people do that in terms of what new toy they bought, or their new house or latest promotion or whatever.

You should have things that are cool about your life that you can talk about too. Maybe you found a new large batch recipe that keeps your weekly dinner costs under a few dollars per person. Or maybe you traveled to a new country on CC points. If you and your wife are truly excited about the path you're on, then you should have things to talk about that excite you.

It doesn't matter whether you come to the social gathering armed with a story about buying a new sports car or hiking a new trail. It's the same story either way. And everyone is just going to politely nod while waiting for their chance to talk.

It sounds bleak when I describe it clinically, but that's a big part of what friendship is. People to whom you can enthuse to.

Tyler durden

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2020, 08:26:07 PM »
This is something you’ve got to get your arms around or it’s going to eat you alive.

I can’t fathom family and friends rubbing your face in their expensive  homes and taunting you for not buying a bigger house. That is an asshole move on their part. And if I misunderstood and they aren’t doing that this is on you. You’ve got kids ? Focus on them.

Honesty is the best policy. Deceit is to much work. Tell them I’m saving to retire earlier and spend more time with the family. I can’t imagine a better way to spend ones time.

Some one said it beat up thread - comparison is a thief of joy.

duyen

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2020, 08:39:10 PM »
Waitwaitwaitwaitwait.  You may not have meant it this way, but the combination of the two bolded passages is a recipe for a really unhappy relationship.  It sounds like she is not onboard with FIRE at all, and that you are unilaterally making the decision that that is what your family's priorities are.  Again:  that may not be what you meant, but it sounds like she is complaining to you because she doesn't feel like she is getting enough say in how much you guys spend and what you spend it on. 

If I'm close -- if you're feeling pressure from her to buy a house, for example -- then pay attention to that.  Not that you need to run out and buy something.  But you need to understand what she wants and why she wants it, and you need to see her goals and desires as just as important as your own, and you need to reach a compromise that gives both of you as much of what you want as possible. 

One of the most common themes I see here is that frugal people think being frugal is the best choice.  Which of course it is.  ;-)  But to non-frugal people, that comes across as your telling them that their priorities are less worthy, and that they are therefore stupid for wanting them.  And, really, no conversation has ever ended well when it starts like that.  Take it from someone who is almost 25 years into a marriage with a VERY non-frugal person:  the only way to make the relationship last is if you treat their wants and goals as just as important as your own -- not because the specific things they want are good/bad, but simply because they matter to your partner.

I am the primary bread earner for the family. My wife recently started a part time job and spends all that money on her shopping. She still wants to go the YOLO way and I don't mind that on minor shopping expenses for her. A house is too big of an expense.

The only reason I want a house is to not lose to others. I have to somehow let go of those thoughts and focus on what I truly want (peace of mind, simple stress free life).

charis

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2020, 10:31:20 PM »
What is rent vs. buy cost situation in your area?  Most people would acknowledge that buying a house isn't financially optimal, but it can be if it's not a hcol area and not a big house. I'm curious because you seem focused on the house buying jealousy.  Buying a house was a big priority for me, so maybe focusing solely on the expense is ignoring other compelling reasons you and your wife might have. Also, spending all of one's (even part-time) salary on shopping doesn't sound like a "minor" issue.

Maybe you need a change of perception. i don't wish anyone ill will, but when I see an expensive car and a big house, I immediately see debt, not wealth. I might be wrong, in fact I hope I am, but it's hard to envy folks who burn $ on luxury items, even they are wealthy.

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2020, 10:58:10 PM »
Maybe you need a change of perception. i don't wish anyone ill will, but when I see an expensive car and a big house, I immediately see debt, not wealth. I might be wrong, in fact I hope I am, but it's hard to envy folks who burn $ on luxury items, even they are wealthy.

Is this healthy? I have an expensive car. It comes with no debt. I have a house. It comes with no debt. Why the immediate rush to try to equalise, as if others with luxury items must have needed to go into debt somehow? Maybe the person really likes cars or houses so it's not "burning" of money. Maybe they bought the car, the house and are still happy. Or maybe they spent it all with sugar daddy money. Or maybe they had to kill someone to steal the money and buy the house and car. Who knows. Either way, it's got nothing to do with your goals or your own happiness.


partgypsy

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2020, 04:35:06 AM »
I agree with others, that more discussion with spouse is in order. And it sounds like both wife and you like the idea of home ownership. If the spouse feels lack of control over how family money is spent, she may be spending her money as kind of a reaction to that. Maybe do some number crunching and see if buying a house is reasonable and achievable considering all your goals. See if your wife is willing to allocate half her job money towards the mortgage (is she willing to sacrifice in some areas to make house dream possible?). Either way it sounds like you and your spouse need to come to a closer agreement or at least better understanding so y'all are working together as a team towards joint happiness/satisfaction.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 04:38:04 AM by partgypsy »

BikeFanatic

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2020, 05:12:52 AM »
And who pays the bills? One way I convinced my spouse to embrace this mustache lifestyle was to have her take over the finances and then if she wanted something she can calculate how it will impact our goals. Although not sexy a once a quarter financial discussion is necessary to make sure everyone is on the same page and getting the financial wise needs met.

ctuser1

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2020, 05:39:57 AM »
If I recall, you are Indian. Assuming your spouse is too, and consequently divorce is nearly 100% off the table (unlike most Americans and others).

You can use this to your advantage.

Basically I sense there is a strong divergence in priorities between you and your wife. If a compromise is not working out, then she is, of course, entitled to her YOLO opinion, but not at the cost of forcing you to continue working in an unsatisfying career.

Now, as soon as you try to ascertain this to her in any enforceable way, I suspect you will arrive at a SHTF moment with your wife. This is where the ‘divorce being off the table’ comes into play.

In your position, if my spouse was to want  me to continue in an unsatisfying career for her unilateral priorities, AND there was little risk I’d lose my family over it, I’d probably start ascertaining a fair line in the sand on this matter, defend that, and intentionally let SHTF. That approach has the fastest potential to do a reset in your relationship and align priorities between you and your wife.

I don’t think I’d do this if I calculated there is a realistic chance of losing my family over it. I’d much rather grin and bear.

Consider this ONLY after you have tried everything else (like others have suggested) to arrive at a compromise, like giving her full control (=responsibility) of running finances. Of course you need to make sure your priorities are also factored in (e.g. $X retirement savings).

If you reach there, then it will be a high risk approach. But, if there is no other way to align the priorities then....
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 05:51:15 AM by ctuser1 »

Maenad

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2020, 06:46:54 AM »
But at the same time it hurts whenever I see other people declare these houses and ask us why we are not buying etc.

Some of the issue may be how you're interacting with others. We have friends who like to spend more freely than we do, and who have given us the "this is so cool, why aren't you buying it?" attitude. In my case it was a little easier since they things they were encouraging were things they found cool and I didn't, but my response was a joking "You're pretty quick to spend our money!" I said it jokingly, and they laughed and we changed the subject. I think it happened once more with me reiterating that joke before it subsided (because our friends respect our decisions and understood that this was a signal to let it go).

There are escalations, like "Why are you so interested in how we spend our money?" then when they answer, "Why do you believe that?". Just start grilling them on why they're asking, why they believe what they do, why they think they have all the answers. Let your inner annoying toddler out to ask Why all day! Take the focus off of you and your choices and put it on them and their behavior. Simple non-responses like "That's interesting, tell me more about that" let people talk about themselves (which everyone loves) and lets you off the hook.

I understand that there can be cultural differences, but there have to be people in your broader community who have mastered the art of diverted the attention of the critics. Learn from the masters!

Fishindude

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2020, 07:16:30 AM »
The whole fancy house / fancy automobile thing is the biggest bullshit smoke screen going.   Anybody that had a decent job and a little credit can have that stuff, at least for a while.
Our stuff's all paid for, we don't have payments, don't go to work anymore, and pretty much can do whatever we want.

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2020, 07:22:39 AM »
The only reason I want a house is to not lose to others. I have to somehow let go of those thoughts and focus on what I truly want (peace of mind, simple stress free life).

That’s one of the beliefs that needs to change: If I don’t have a house, then I’m losing to others.

Is that if-then statement actually true? What would be a more accurate and helpful statement?

Paper Chaser

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2020, 07:39:05 AM »
The right thing for me to do is to focus on increasing my networth and based on how long I can pull this work thing add a home in the end.

The right house can increase your networth as well. There's no guarantee that it will, or even that it will do it at the same rate as stocks, but perhaps understanding that equity gain in any form (mortgage pay down, sweat equity, appreciation, etc) can still be a productive use of your money might help you to come to some compromise with your wife.

ctuser1

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2020, 08:08:49 AM »
I would chime in supporting that a house is the biggest money sink I have ever encountered, and much bigger than I realized it would be when I was a renter.

I purchased a tiny house in a HCOL area, and paid only $265k (motivated seller who had to move in a deadline + many things to be fixed + I low-balled). Even at that price (which is less than half of what my colleagues typically pay), the house costs a ton to carry.

I created a spreadsheet three years ago, with:
1. Mortgage interest (principal portion not included).
2. Opportunity cost of the principal payment @8%/year.
3. Insurance/Taxes
3. Amortized costs for big items like roof, driveway, siding, structure. No remodeling or other "improvement" included.

That came to a range between $3200/month to $3800/month - depending on assumptions. This $3200/month (or $3800/month) is the true cost to carry for me, just like rent (i.e. throwing money away).

When I was renting, I never paid more than $1800/mo.

I get a lot of extra stuff for this extra $1400/month (or $2000/month) in money thrown away compared to rent. I get much more space, a big yard, my choice of customization, privacy etc. I showed this equation to DW, and she (with support from the kids) strongly insist this extra cost is very much worth it and even (grudgingly) agreed to curtail other expenses (e.g. our obnoxious eating out habit which used to cost > $1500/month right before we purchased the house) to maintain cash flow position.

So I think this is a good deal for us. But the above is a very case by case analysis.

If you are in any HCOL area, your numbers and your decision flowchart will likely pencil out somewhat similar to mine but differ in details, and I have no idea how numbers would look in a LCOL Area. A similar sized house (if you can find one) in places like Plano, TX (for example) would likely cost < $2k to carry. Still a lot of money compared to rent in those areas.

charis

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2020, 08:46:43 AM »
Maybe you need a change of perception. i don't wish anyone ill will, but when I see an expensive car and a big house, I immediately see debt, not wealth. I might be wrong, in fact I hope I am, but it's hard to envy folks who burn $ on luxury items, even they are wealthy.

Is this healthy? I have an expensive car. It comes with no debt. I have a house. It comes with no debt. Why the immediate rush to try to equalise, as if others with luxury items must have needed to go into debt somehow? Maybe the person really likes cars or houses so it's not "burning" of money. Maybe they bought the car, the house and are still happy. Or maybe they spent it all with sugar daddy money. Or maybe they had to kill someone to steal the money and buy the house and car. Who knows. Either way, it's got nothing to do with your goals or your own happiness.

Hm, I guess don't really care about that or whether you (or any other stranger) bought your expensive car with cash. I smile to myself when I see luxury/expensive cars in the parking lot at work because I think it looks silly. Sorry. It doesn't affect my life (except in a good way) so I'm not planning to worry about whether my general aversion to luxury items is "healthy". 

duyen

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2020, 12:08:35 PM »
I am always surprised how insightful everybody's replies on this forum are. And all of them are unique and give different perspectives.

To give some background, I am 40 years old and our networth is ~1.2m. I currently make about 290k and wife brings around 10k. We live in a VHCOL where a decent home will be atleast 1.2m. Townhomes run around 650-850k. I can't assume my high paying job will last forever. I give it like 3 years safely. After that a job outside can pay 120k+.

If I get into buying a 1.2m house and lose my job after 3 years and get a 120k job, I will be working for 13 years to pay that house and be barely retired (after helping kids with college). If I don't buy a home I am relieved that I can call it quits in 2-4 years when my networth becomes 2m+. It is right that I am assuming everything to be the worst case. I may not lose this job; even when i lose it I might get something that pays 170k rather than 120k; the market might return higher than 6%; I might like working (highly doubt it) and continue beyond 13 years.

I don't know if I am having this scarcity mindset, taking decisions out of fear and not taking decisions with right amount of risk while others are making sane decisions. Right now it seems best to be happy renting and let the networth grow fully invested and make decisions later
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 12:13:04 PM by duyen »

bmjohnson35

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2020, 12:48:27 PM »

It's a challenge when a couple's financial values are at opposite ends of the spectrum.  I would also suggest sitting down to discuss them further to identify possible compromises.  Keep in mind that a mustachian approach is not necessarily more "right" than a YOLO approach to spending/saving.  Each approach has it's pro's and con's.  Also, it seems that mustachians appear to prefer decisions based on careful analysis, while a YOLO person often prefer basing them on emotions.

The keeping up with the Jone's is an unfulfilling trap.  Worrying too much about what others think of your choices is another unfulfilling trap.  Taking a different path than the majority isn't always easy, but can be rewarding.

I have been guilty of being too mustachian or simply cheap during past vacations and later regretted it.  Life is often about balance.  Yolo doesn't always have to be cost based neither.

I'm a firm believer that houses are expenses, not investments.  It's an expense, just like transportation and food.  If it was strictly up to me, I wouldn't own a house, but my spouse feels the need to own.  We compromised and bought a home at a lower price point with low expenses.  Fortunately, this is an exception, we are usually on the same page on financial decisions.


 

dignam

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2020, 01:15:59 PM »
One of my friends from HS listed his house last week for $700k (we're in a MCOL area in WI).  I think he was a firefighter for a while, now maybe a pipe fitter?  Anyway, it just blew my mind because how in the hell did they purchase that to begin with?  Granted his wife is in the medical field..but they're early 30's with kids as well.  Then the comparisons started in my head...my home is worth maybe 1/3 of that...blah blah blah

Then I realized it doesn't really matter.  I have my goals and a clear path to those goals that involves saving a large chunk of my income, and not splurging (often).  I don't know all the details of his, or anyone's situation.  But again, none of that really matters.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2020, 01:42:38 PM »
Maybe you need a change of perception. i don't wish anyone ill will, but when I see an expensive car and a big house, I immediately see debt, not wealth. I might be wrong, in fact I hope I am, but it's hard to envy folks who burn $ on luxury items, even they are wealthy.

Is this healthy? I have an expensive car. It comes with no debt. I have a house. It comes with no debt. Why the immediate rush to try to equalise, as if others with luxury items must have needed to go into debt somehow? Maybe the person really likes cars or houses so it's not "burning" of money. Maybe they bought the car, the house and are still happy. Or maybe they spent it all with sugar daddy money. Or maybe they had to kill someone to steal the money and buy the house and car. Who knows. Either way, it's got nothing to do with your goals or your own happiness.

Hm, I guess don't really care about that or whether you (or any other stranger) bought your expensive car with cash. I smile to myself when I see luxury/expensive cars in the parking lot at work because I think it looks silly. Sorry. It doesn't affect my life (except in a good way) so I'm not planning to worry about whether my general aversion to luxury items is "healthy".

Of course if you don't like luxury items then it's great for you to not buy them and to think they're a waste of money. Which is true. My point was simply that to put your values onto others (by assuming debt) is one step further than is necessary to be content.

The OP's issue seems to be two-fold. The first is that he and his wife can't figure out what exactly they want because they have different priorities. The second issue is that they are in any case externalising their wants and needs based on the perceived reality of others. The first issue has to be worked out via compromising. The second issue is more one of mindset.

charis

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2020, 02:43:43 PM »
I'm not putting my values on anyone.  People are entitled to their toys.  I'm just pointing out to the OP that not everyone (including myself) envies that. Some of us feel quite the opposite.  And it's a fairly freeing mindset.

24andfrugal

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2020, 07:36:57 AM »
If I recall, you are Indian. Assuming your spouse is too, and consequently divorce is nearly 100% off the table (unlike most Americans and others).

You can use this to your advantage.

Basically I sense there is a strong divergence in priorities between you and your wife. If a compromise is not working out, then she is, of course, entitled to her YOLO opinion, but not at the cost of forcing you to continue working in an unsatisfying career.

Now, as soon as you try to ascertain this to her in any enforceable way, I suspect you will arrive at a SHTF moment with your wife. This is where the ‘divorce being off the table’ comes into play.

In your position, if my spouse was to want  me to continue in an unsatisfying career for her unilateral priorities, AND there was little risk I’d lose my family over it, I’d probably start ascertaining a fair line in the sand on this matter, defend that, and intentionally let SHTF. That approach has the fastest potential to do a reset in your relationship and align priorities between you and your wife.

I don’t think I’d do this if I calculated there is a realistic chance of losing my family over it. I’d much rather grin and bear.

Consider this ONLY after you have tried everything else (like others have suggested) to arrive at a compromise, like giving her full control (=responsibility) of running finances. Of course you need to make sure your priorities are also factored in (e.g. $X retirement savings).

If you reach there, then it will be a high risk approach. But, if there is no other way to align the priorities then....

This doesn't seem like a healthy way to handle conflict.

24andfrugal

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2020, 07:43:36 AM »
OP, I think this is primarily an issue of you and your wife not being on the same page as far as financial goals. I feel bad for you, but I also feel bad for her.

Does she not work because she is raising your kids? If so, that is a contribution to the household as well. While I don't think you should defer to her on every financial decision, it sounds like you aren't taking her wants into consideration at all.

Wanting to own one's own home isn't a particularly outlandish desire. Renting means dealing with landlords, and restricts what you can do with the property in terms of renovation, etc. Plus there's this overarching feeling that it's not really yours. Your wife is not wrong to want to be a homeowner and not rent the rest of her life.

Since your net worth is already $1.2m, can you retire to a LCOL or even MCOL area? Then your wife gets the home, and you don't have to work. I doubt $1.2m is enough to retire on in a VHCOL area anyway.

ctuser1

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2020, 07:58:48 AM »
This doesn't seem like a healthy way to handle conflict.

I would be curious to learn about how you would handle it in case it is apparent that priorities are different and no compromise is forthcoming - within the context of what OP posted.

I don't expect this to be relevant for myself (DW and I fight, primarily because I lack patience, but our priorities are not different). But I would still be interested to learn your perspective.

Laura33

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2020, 09:00:29 AM »
This doesn't seem like a healthy way to handle conflict.

I would be curious to learn about how you would handle it in case it is apparent that priorities are different and no compromise is forthcoming - within the context of what OP posted.

I don't expect this to be relevant for myself (DW and I fight, primarily because I lack patience, but our priorities are not different). But I would still be interested to learn your perspective.

First, lots and lots of talking about priorities and goals.  But not just the "I want this" -- but the WHY they want this. What is the itch that this particular thing is scratching, and why.  Seeing it from the other's point of view and really trying to understand why it matters, from the standpoint that it is critical that both parties be happy and have a fair opportunity to achieve their goals.  Then looking for compromises of options that scratch that itch but with much lower impact on the other partner.  Be creative.  There are always options available beyond the obvious.  But if you are dug in on seeing your choices as either "winning" or "giving in," then you have blinders on and won't ever be able to see them.

This process matters no matter what the end result is, because the most important thing you can ever convey to you partner is that their happiness matters as much to you as your own does, and that you're not willing to settle for a life where one of you "wins" and the other "loses."  There will always, always be things you disagree on, and there will never ever be enough money to do everything that both of you want to do.  The way to a healthy relationship is in the process by which you decide how to allocate that money.

This is not a money question; it is an emotional and relationship question.  The wife spends for a reason -- because there's something about it that makes her happy, or allows her to escape for a few minutes, or provides a release from some pain.  Dismissing her behavior as "YOLO" or spendthrift is incredibly damaging, because it tells her that you think you're right and she's wrong, and it focuses on the behavior and not the underlying need driving it.

I will give you an example:  my DH likes to eat out at lunch every day.  Worse, he likes to pick up the tab for his buddies once a week or so.  Why?  It's expensive, it's wasteful, it's unhealthy, it's unnecessary, etc.  If he wants a break, why not go for a walk and eat outside?  If he wants to hang out with his friends, why not brownbag it and eat together, or at least not freaking pay for everyone?  I could literally think of no reason why he would continue to do this, no matter what I said or what other options I came up with, and it pissed me off.  Finally I thought to ask him why, instead of presuming I could infer what he was thinking.  And he said:  it makes me feel successful.  I like knowing that I make enough money that I can afford to treat people, and it makes me feel good when I do it.

Now, honestly, I still don't get it -- that seems like some sort of macho social posturing that is self-defeating and stupid.  But the only thing that mattered is that it mattered to him, and that being able to continue to do that was a small thing that he could do on a frequent basis to remind himself of how far he has come and what he has achieved financially.  And I had to respect that that was an important value to him, even though I didn't share it, and so I had to find a way to make room in our budget to allow him to do that.

ctuser1

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2020, 09:59:34 AM »
First, lots and lots of talking about priorities and goals.  But not just the "I want this" -- but the WHY they want this. What is the itch that this particular thing is scratching, and why.  Seeing it from the other's point of view and really trying to understand why it matters, from the standpoint that it is critical that both parties be happy and have a fair opportunity to achieve their goals.  Then looking for compromises of options that scratch that itch but with much lower impact on the other partner.  Be creative.  There are always options available beyond the obvious.  But if you are dug in on seeing your choices as either "winning" or "giving in," then you have blinders on and won't ever be able to see them.

This process matters no matter what the end result is, because the most important thing you can ever convey to you partner is that their happiness matters as much to you as your own does, and that you're not willing to settle for a life where one of you "wins" and the other "loses."  There will always, always be things you disagree on, and there will never ever be enough money to do everything that both of you want to do.  The way to a healthy relationship is in the process by which you decide how to allocate that money.

This is not a money question; it is an emotional and relationship question.  The wife spends for a reason -- because there's something about it that makes her happy, or allows her to escape for a few minutes, or provides a release from some pain.  Dismissing her behavior as "YOLO" or spendthrift is incredibly damaging, because it tells her that you think you're right and she's wrong, and it focuses on the behavior and not the underlying need driving it.

I will give you an example:  my DH likes to eat out at lunch every day.  Worse, he likes to pick up the tab for his buddies once a week or so.  Why?  It's expensive, it's wasteful, it's unhealthy, it's unnecessary, etc.  If he wants a break, why not go for a walk and eat outside?  If he wants to hang out with his friends, why not brownbag it and eat together, or at least not freaking pay for everyone?  I could literally think of no reason why he would continue to do this, no matter what I said or what other options I came up with, and it pissed me off.  Finally I thought to ask him why, instead of presuming I could infer what he was thinking.  And he said:  it makes me feel successful.  I like knowing that I make enough money that I can afford to treat people, and it makes me feel good when I do it.

Now, honestly, I still don't get it -- that seems like some sort of macho social posturing that is self-defeating and stupid.  But the only thing that mattered is that it mattered to him, and that being able to continue to do that was a small thing that he could do on a frequent basis to remind himself of how far he has come and what he has achieved financially.  And I had to respect that that was an important value to him, even though I didn't share it, and so I had to find a way to make room in our budget to allow him to do that.

Thx for the perspective.

Sometimes you run into trust issues that becomes difficult to overcome.

I had a huge problem with eating out and wasn't as enthusiastic about travel as DW. We spent upwards of $1500/mo on it since I kept track (from about 2013) and probably much more before that. I suspect we used to spend over $2k/month before we started keeping track.

Both DW and I contributed to this monstrosity.

I used to travel a LOT for work, and going to a restaurant, or taking a flight felt like "work" to me. Why would I do that in my own time?? This meant that we would fight for some time, then settle on a very expensive fine dining restaurant that I would be interested in. And of course, DW did not care about going to the expensive places, but she wanted to eat out often. Combine the two, and you get a $2k+ in eating out bill.

After purchasing the house, this became problematic as our free cash flow decreased. So at this time we had some huge fights over the eating out budget. Trust issues quickly creep up when that happens ("What? You want to go eating out and reduce retirement savings???", vs. "Did I ask you to go to all award winning restaurants?"). We both butted heads and sulked for a few months, and only THEN figured out a compromise. No more "fine dining" restaurant for me. And restaurant budged < $300/month.

Trust issues can creep up on you fast! and escalate even faster!!

ROF Expat

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Re: How to deal with rat race / comparison / jealousy?
« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2020, 10:06:12 AM »
If I recall, you are Indian. Assuming your spouse is too, and consequently divorce is nearly 100% off the table (unlike most Americans and others).

You can use this to your advantage.

Basically I sense there is a strong divergence in priorities between you and your wife. If a compromise is not working out, then she is, of course, entitled to her YOLO opinion, but not at the cost of forcing you to continue working in an unsatisfying career.

Now, as soon as you try to ascertain this to her in any enforceable way, I suspect you will arrive at a SHTF moment with your wife. This is where the ‘divorce being off the table’ comes into play.

In your position, if my spouse was to want  me to continue in an unsatisfying career for her unilateral priorities, AND there was little risk I’d lose my family over it, I’d probably start ascertaining a fair line in the sand on this matter, defend that, and intentionally let SHTF. That approach has the fastest potential to do a reset in your relationship and align priorities between you and your wife.

I don’t think I’d do this if I calculated there is a realistic chance of losing my family over it. I’d much rather grin and bear.

Consider this ONLY after you have tried everything else (like others have suggested) to arrive at a compromise, like giving her full control (=responsibility) of running finances. Of course you need to make sure your priorities are also factored in (e.g. $X retirement savings).

If you reach there, then it will be a high risk approach. But, if there is no other way to align the priorities then....

I'm happily married and have never been divorced but... 

I think you might be making a mistake in assuming that divorce would be the worst thing that could happen to a marriage.  I rather suspect a deeply unhappy spouse without recourse to divorce could probably find ways to make a partner wish that divorce was, in fact, an option.