Author Topic: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?  (Read 5675 times)

Asdfg

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How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« on: October 26, 2015, 05:38:45 AM »
Hello,

I have always been rather frugal but MMM really put me on the right path and helped me focus on this whole thing. That said, I have slowly done some changes to the daily life of our family of five. Our grocery bill has gone down from about $1000/month to $400/month and on top of that we eat more healthy now. Rather than spending money in a theme park, we go out to the nature with the kids and get free exercise on top of it, etc.

But now as perhaps the biggest money sinks have been fixed and I am trying to further optimize our spending, I am seeing lack of support or even reluctance from my SO.

I'm looking for tips how to have my wife get along with this new ideology or lifestyle. I know that she would accept it but I can't seem to find the right words to describe the benefits of it all. She just says "I don't mind working until I'm 63".

RetiredAt63

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2015, 05:58:47 AM »
I never did get my SO (now XDH) on board, he is still working at 64.  From what I have seen here on the forums, what works for some is to get alignment on goals, and then everyone is on board.  Other considerations to discuss with her (not tell her, it has to be a dialogue) - having the FI is wonderful even if RE doesn't happen, because you have options.  What if work becomes unbearable?  What if one of you is laid off and has trouble finding a new job?  What if one of you is too sick to work?

And of course, some jobs are not the kind that people are dying to retire from, they are just too engaging.  I don't regret working until 63, I could have retired at 60 but I was having too much fun. Still, it is nice to have options.

Remember, this blog and forum isn't really about being frugal, it is about examining your life to see what is worth spending on, and what is not - and once you look at all the conventional spending assumptions out there, you find a lot of it is not really necessary for happiness.  If you are talking "frugal" as opposed to "let's optimize our lives" then you are less likely to get buy-in. And remember, people who declutter also find that the item they couldn't live without on the first round is gone on the third round.  So what seems an essential expense now may be easier to drop down the road.  On the other hand, your wife may be feeling many of the costs and few of the benefits of your frugality - you really need to slow down and discuss things with her.  For a couple it can't just be one person, both have to be on board.

I am sure others will have lots of advice  ;-)  Good luck.

Asdfg

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2015, 06:24:10 AM »
Thank you so much for your reply! I really appreciated it.

having the FI is wonderful even if RE doesn't happen, because you have options.  What if work becomes unbearable?  What if one of you is laid off and has trouble finding a new job?  What if one of you is too sick to work?

This is a good argument. The thing is that she is working in a field where you will start the career as an employee but will most likely retire as an entrepreneur. So, in a way the best part of her career is still to come. Still, I would reckon she would enjoy the extra free time with our kids more than the career. Especially now that the kids are young.

Sibley

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2015, 07:20:42 AM »
Go to the Share your Badassity section, and one of the sticky'ed posts at the top is exactly what you're looking for. I'd link it, but haven't figured out how to do that yet, sorry!

Asdfg

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2015, 07:39:44 AM »
Go to the Share your Badassity section, and one of the sticky'ed posts at the top is exactly what you're looking for. I'd link it, but haven't figured out how to do that yet, sorry!

Ah, perfect. Thank you! And sorry for not looking around more...

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/how-to-convert-your-so-to-mmm-in-50-awesome-steps/

briandougherty

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2015, 07:52:43 AM »
I would agree that selling it through FI is the way to go.  You make the case that you both want at something similar to your current lifestyle and you want it to be secure in case something happens to either of you or you hate your job and want to quit.  Acknowledge that she likes her job and if either of you want to keep working, it's just extra money added to the pot which you can use for whatever.  That way your vision is still flexible and she doesn't feel like she will be stuck forever at a lower level of spending all because you want to quit working.  If I were you, I would also express your willingness to work more or cut more from things you value to meet these goals.

DoubleDown

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2015, 09:53:12 AM »
I know it's not the answer you're looking for, but honestly I would give up the notion of convincing your wife and come to acceptance of the idea that she may never adopt the MMM early retirement philosophy. IMO, this is generally true for any question that starts with "How do I get my SO to....?" or "How do I convince my SO to....?"

I found MMM about three years ago and it immediately clicked for me. I retired about two years ago at age 47. My wife still is not enamored with the early retirement idea and says exactly what your wife says: "I don't mind working until I'm 63 (or a similar age)." I think the best you can do is lead by example, optimize your own life and work out an arrangement with her for when YOU can retire that also meets her needs. Good luck!

zephyr911

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2015, 12:14:35 PM »
If they have fundamentally incompatible values, it won't happen.

The key is to recognize that Mustachianism and FI have many benefits, and emphasize the ones that appeal to your SO's values. They don't have to want to retire to enjoy the idea of having FU money, being prepared for surprises, and generally having OPTIONS.

My wife loves the work she does, and she didn't finish grad school till after 30 so she will probably work longer than I do. But sometimes she hates her work environment, and being FI would let her give up the stress and just be an at-will consultant.

Asdfg

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2015, 01:10:20 PM »
Good stuff, thanks guys.

We don't have fundamentally incompatible values, it's just that she doesn't want any extra hassle/work/effort in our current life due to three small kids. For example she prefers to buy ready meals while I prefer to cook, or even plan ahead our (my) cooking.

She also said that she wouldn't mind working less now to spend more time with the kids, and working more time when the kids are older. I sort of agree.

Sorry for my inaccurate problem description but as you can tell English is not my mother tongue :)

zephyr911

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2015, 01:27:13 PM »
Good stuff, thanks guys.

We don't have fundamentally incompatible values, it's just that she doesn't want any extra hassle/work/effort in our current life due to three small kids. For example she prefers to buy ready meals while I prefer to cook, or even plan ahead our (my) cooking.

She also said that she wouldn't mind working less now to spend more time with the kids, and working more time when the kids are older. I sort of agree.

Sorry for my inaccurate problem description but as you can tell English is not my mother tongue :)
Au contraire, your English is not bad at all. You're expressing yourself with plenty of clarity.

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she prefers to buy ready meals while I prefer to cook

Perfect example of there being multiple benefits, and your needing to pick the ones she cares about. Even if she thinks the extra money is worth the time saved, does she also think it's a good idea to feed the children high quantities of salt, preservatives, dye, and other chemicals? Does she truly love the food, or does she just accept it because she's tired?

Those of us who cook regularly, with practice, get so good at it that the time difference is minimal, the results are healthier, and we enjoy the food more. No joke.

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She also said that she wouldn't mind working less now to spend more time with the kids, and working more time when the kids are older. I sort of agree.

Now there's one point few of us would challenge her on. But if you really plan things out right, maybe she can have her cake and eat it too. In other words, the right kind of planning and financial management might allow her to do that very soon, or even today, without terrible results later (like having to work for extra decades to pay for it).
For example, one MMM case study involved a dual-income married couple who were wasting so much money on transportation that it turned out she could quit her low-income job and stay home full-time and still make ends meet. Feel free to post details if you want more analysis and ideas.

zephyr911

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2015, 01:30:21 PM »
OH, here it is:

Reader Case Study: Working a Crappy Job – for Nothing

Quote
Dear Principal S,
 
I’ve got some bad news and some good news. The bad news is, your wife has been slaving away at her awful job at a ridiculously far-away office building, enduring those frequent Showers of Douchery, and missing out on raising her own children, for VIRTUALLY NO PAY! The good news is, she can bring a big cardboard cut-out of a middle finger to work with her TOMORROW, and duct-tape it to her boss’s desk, because she is done with that joint. Here’s why...

KCM5

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2015, 01:31:43 PM »
How old are the kids? If they're quite young, she might be in a bit of "survival mode" and just not have the extra mental energy to figure out the logistics of spending less money.

If that's the case, just do what you can do and give it a bit of time. Check out the links, make sure one of you isn't just working for pennies or something, but other than that, keep on keeping on.

Asdfg

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2015, 02:00:49 PM »
The kids are 5, 4 and 1. She has basically been at home for the past 5 years and is now about to go back to work when the youngest will start daycare as well. This is one reason why she doesn't want to consider RE for now as she is excited getting back to work to use her brains again (her words, not mine).

does she just accept it because she's tired?

This, pretty much. Which is exactly where I'm trying to help by leading by example and cooking bigger amounts that she can just microwave later on.

Quote
For example, one MMM case study involved a dual-income married couple who were wasting so much money on transportation that it turned out she could quit her low-income job and stay home full-time and still make ends meet. Feel free to post details if you want more analysis and ideas.

Interesting case study. It's a bit similar to our situation where she will be driving about 1 hour one way to work. But gas price is much more expensive here. Her salary is almost double to that lady in MMM's case study, though, so she is still contributing nicely. I actually never precisely calculated our savings rate but it's somewhere around 40-60%. Should be closer to 60% when she returns to work. And it could go up to 70% if I got her on-board of this MMM thing :)

cube.37

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2015, 02:14:53 PM »
Go to the Share your Badassity section, and one of the sticky'ed posts at the top is exactly what you're looking for. I'd link it, but haven't figured out how to do that yet, sorry!

Ah, perfect. Thank you! And sorry for not looking around more...

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/how-to-convert-your-so-to-mmm-in-50-awesome-steps/

I recently got my fiancee somewhat onboard with mmm philosphy. From the link you posted above, what was most helpful was #8:

"8. Do you have a cleaning service? You do now. It's YOU. Cancel anything you're paying for, and STEP IT UP. You are now the cleaning person. I don't care about fairness, or whatever - if you are motivating this person to save money, you gotta show that you're willing to do the dirty work. Literally. Let it be known in a nice way, not a passive aggressive way, that you care a lot about your savings and it's worth it to you to do the cleaning yourself."

You really have to put in 200% of what you were doing before. One example is: take care of more cooking - for a while, I cooked several dinners on Sunday night so that my fiancee wouldn't have to do any cooking during the week. Another example is: When I started to budget our money, I allocated $100 of allowance per month for each of us. I ended up using $10-15/month, while she would spend all $100 the first week of the month. For the first few months, I'd give her the rest of my allowance. Slowly, she started to get better with managing her spending, and now rarely asks if she can "borrow" my allowance! I really think it's all about leading by example. When you show that it can be done, without any reduction in happiness, your SO might start to see things your way.

Something else that I continue to do is make small investments to keep her happy. She still likes shopping, restaurants, etc. I recently bought her a bouquet of nice flowers for $10 that made her very happy. I thought of it as a nice gesture, but also an investment - $10 is nothing if it keeps us on track.


KCM5

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2015, 02:27:33 PM »
I actually never precisely calculated our savings rate but it's somewhere around 40-60%. Should be closer to 60% when she returns to work. And it could go up to 70% if I got her on-board of this MMM thing :)

Uhhh...do you really need your spouse on board? You're doing awesome!

zephyr911

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2015, 02:42:16 PM »
I'm trying to help by leading by example and cooking bigger amounts that she can just microwave later on.
Excellent! I've been doing that too. It really does make things easier. My wife used to buy a lot of Lean Cuisine... now she doesn't need to. :)
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Interesting case study. It's a bit similar to our situation where she will be driving about 1 hour one way to work. But gas price is much more expensive here. Her salary is almost double to that lady in MMM's case study, though, so she is still contributing nicely. I actually never precisely calculated our savings rate but it's somewhere around 40-60%. Should be closer to 60% when she returns to work. And it could go up to 70% if I got her on-board of this MMM thing :)
This tells me that if she wanted to cut her hours, you'd still be saving plenty of money, commuting costs would go down, and she'd get that time with the kids. Obviously, much depends on the details. But you have a lot of flexibility with a high SR.

RetiredAt63

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2015, 03:36:14 PM »
I was glad to go back to work as well, my brain needed the stimulation.  I am sure she is using all her energy, so it will be up to you to do more if more needs to be done. I am thinking cleaning, cooking ahead, picking up last-minute groceries on the way home, etc.  Plus you doing these things shows your commitment.

The kids are 5, 4 and 1. She has basically been at home for the past 5 years and is now about to go back to work when the youngest will start daycare as well. This is one reason why she doesn't want to consider RE for now as she is excited getting back to work to use her brains again (her words, not mine).

does she just accept it because she's tired?

This, pretty much. Which is exactly where I'm trying to help by leading by example and cooking bigger amounts that she can just microwave later on.

Quote
For example, one MMM case study involved a dual-income married couple who were wasting so much money on transportation that it turned out she could quit her low-income job and stay home full-time and still make ends meet. Feel free to post details if you want more analysis and ideas.

Interesting case study. It's a bit similar to our situation where she will be driving about 1 hour one way to work. But gas price is much more expensive here. Her salary is almost double to that lady in MMM's case study, though, so she is still contributing nicely. I actually never precisely calculated our savings rate but it's somewhere around 40-60%. Should be closer to 60% when she returns to work. And it could go up to 70% if I got her on-board of this MMM thing :)

Outlier

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2015, 09:47:42 PM »
Hello,

I have always been rather frugal but MMM really put me on the right path and helped me focus on this whole thing. That said, I have slowly done some changes to the daily life of our family of five. Our grocery bill has gone down from about $1000/month to $400/month and on top of that we eat more healthy now. Rather than spending money in a theme park, we go out to the nature with the kids and get free exercise on top of it, etc.

But now as perhaps the biggest money sinks have been fixed and I am trying to further optimize our spending, I am seeing lack of support or even reluctance from my SO.

I'm looking for tips how to have my wife get along with this new ideology or lifestyle. I know that she would accept it but I can't seem to find the right words to describe the benefits of it all. She just says "I don't mind working until I'm 63".

Put the bills in her name and sit back. My wife argued for premium packages and HBO when the TV bill was $200 a month in my name. At $80 a month on her credit card it's okay to cancel satellite and just have netflix.

Asdfg

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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2015, 05:03:57 AM »
Put the bills in her name and sit back. My wife argued for premium packages and HBO when the TV bill was $200 a month in my name. At $80 a month on her credit card it's okay to cancel satellite and just have netflix.

I see your point but I'm not sure how it would work because at the moment I'm bringing in 90% of our income. So even if the bill would be in her name, I would end up paying it. Perhaps next year it will work better when she returns to work. But then again, we always had completely shared money.

Maybe I'm just pushing it too much, and like KCM5 said that maybe I don't even need my spouse on board.

Thinking further, I am down to optimizing things like how can we schedule our laundry so that we don't have to use the dryer (which costs like 5x compared to washing machine) so often. I'm starting to feel a little ashamed...


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Re: How to convince my SO to the MMM philosophy?
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2015, 01:57:31 PM »
Asdfg - My wife also wasn't an "instant" believer right away, didn't want to stop working, and in her eyes, since we were already saving 30% we are already doing better than everyone else, right?. I got her on board by focusing on life goals like traveling and charity THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO HER, NOT ME. We are now in the 60-70% savings range. Could we be saving 90%+ on our high incomes? Yes, but she doesn't want to live in a way that would facilitate a 90%+ savings rate and I would like to keep my wife vs. increase my savings rate:)

Things like the following got her on board, YMMV:
-If we were FI ... we could spend 1-3 months every summer in a different country including where her parents are from.
-If we were FI ... we/you could continue working and build a scholarship fund that would provide poor kids with tuition money indefinitely long after we are gone
-If we were FI ... you could ... etc etc

As others have stated, frame the conversation around goals you think she'll want in life and show her how it's possible. Remember, you can't be perfectly optimize and you will need to make some concessions. For example, I know my wife will want to see real estate cash flow >> expenses before recognizing FI. She doesn't feel comfortable or interested in a 4% / trinity study example. She also wants a house 2x more than what I would ideally spend but is 1/2 to 1/3rd what we could "afford" according to a bank.