How to bust through frugal fatigue

[Northern gal]

Every now and then it hits me: frugality fatigue.

Have you felt it too? How did you cope?

What I do so far:

1. Look at what else is happening in my life, am I stressed, sad, feeling helpless for some reason? Then I look for other ways to satisfy the emotional need.

2. Read MMM

3. Remind myself of the end goal

4. Give in to little luxuries

What do you do?

[ketchup]

I re-frame it, and realize how non-frugal I already am in the grand scheme of things.  The opposite works in the face of frugal "failure" (like buying the cauliflower for $2.99/lb instead of the other store where you knew it was on sale for $0.99/lb).

Really though, it all gets on autopilot pretty easily.

[meadow lark]

This hit me every a few years ago.  I think it is a matter of the goal feeling too far away to motivate.  I spent some time trying to just live in the present and increase my pleasure and enjoyment today (socializing, reading, camping - whatever you love). We need pleasure - our lives can not always be about deferred gratification.  One year I made a New Year's resolution to have more fun. And I actively went after that goal and used it as a metric to make decisions.   It changed the way I live, permanently.  The key is, it didn't defer my FIRE date.  Increasing pleasure is not linked to increasing expenses.  Which isn't to say, you can't choose to spend more.  Just that it isn't necessary.

[Goldielocks]

For frugality and help with budgeting around household monthly expenses, I noted that when I used a cash envelope system, I just kept accumulating cash in my "personal spend / fun" jar, I would get really excited when I actually took out the money and physically counted it.   Surprisingly happy.  I would imagine what I wanted to spend it on, and then usually, not spend it after all, or donate, or whatever.  But all happy because I wasn't denying my purchase because I couldn't but because I realized that the value for $x wasn't in it for me.

The physical nature of the cash was great.   Try it.  Take your fun money as cash every week, and then spend as you like, and watch the remainder accumulate.


I hear others get a similar boost out of posting their monthly income / debt / net worth chart (per Your money or your life) on their fridge or bedroom door.

[ptobest]

I totally give in to little luxuries. If a $3 dollar slice of pizza or unnecessary adventure at a thrift store can scratch that itch and keep me on a path to saving the rest of the time, then I'll totally indulge on occasion. I also let myself indulge in a social context - I don't eat out much, but if a friend wants to get dinner or drinks I usually say yes as I am also getting social benefits from that money being spent.

[Bucksandreds]

I totally give in to little luxuries. If a $3 dollar slice of pizza or unnecessary adventure at a thrift store can scratch that itch and keep me on a path to saving the rest of the time, then I'll totally indulge on occasion. I also let myself indulge in a social context - I don't eat out much, but if a friend wants to get dinner or drinks I usually say yes as I am also getting social benefits from that money being spent.

You're correct imo. Any of us could die right now. Live a little. After getting into the idea of Financial Independence I saved 3 times or more what I was saving. I still buy craft beers, soccer gear, go to the movies, vacation a few times a year, eat out about once a week using coupons. One might work ten years to get to FI and enjoy no indulgences and die the day before the RE. I'd gladly add a couple of years of work so no matter what happens I'll have enjoyed myself.

[Poundwise]

Thank you for this topic!

One thing that helps is when I go back to possessions I already have and actually use them, especially as I have long had a weakness for fancy hobby tools and a tendency to accumulate UFOs (UnFinished Objects).  In other words, I get more value out of a past splurge.   

[Zikoris]

Honestly, if I ever felt that way I would re-evaluate my entire system. I strongly believe in living your ideal life (or as close to it as possible while still working) during the path to FI, and that if you're doing that, you shouldn't be feeling any sort of fatigue, deprivation, stress, or anything else unpleasant. Day to day life shouldn't require willpower or motivation, because that just plain sucks. It should be easy, natural, fun, and require minimal effort. You just need to figure out a way to do all that and also spend hardly anything, which is straightforward enough (and you only have to figure it out once to be set for life).

[ZePetiteStash]

I suffer frugal fatigue every August when I get the itch to buy new clothes (I think it's because when I was a kid, we did back to school shopping?). I think I *must* buy pants, shoes, a new dress. I find if I count the number of shoes, dresses, etc that I already have, the desire to accumulate more is lessened.

[Retire-Canada]

Every now and then it hits me: frugality fatigue.

Have you felt it too? How did you cope?

What I do so far:

1. Look at what else is happening in my life, am I stressed, sad, feeling helpless for some reason? Then I look for other ways to satisfy the emotional need.

2. Read MMM

3. Remind myself of the end goal

4. Give in to little luxuries

What do you do?

If the financial choices you are making lead you to unhappiness I would rethink them. That doesn't necessarily mean spending big bucks on useless shit, but dig into why you are not feeling good around money and look for ways to resolve it.

I could get to FIRE faster by cutting my budget to the bone, but I'd be miserable so what's the point? Instead I try and spend the money I do spend wisely to maximize my happiness. I also keep an eye on the prize and ensure that my spending choices are not pushing FIRE so far out that I am screwing my future self either.

[Capt j-rod]

I look to the past and see the progress that I have already made. I basically quit buying "more" stuff five years ago. I dig out the stuff I kept and use it. It wasn't all that long ago that I had to have the newest and best fishing gear. I found myself working extra and longer to pay for the junk. I now have the luxury to use my gear when ever I want. I'm not able to FIRE yet, but I get to work when I want within reason. Little junk ends up being more time on your work sentence

[VolcanicArts]

I probably am in frugal fatigue mode now. It doesn't help that this summer I had some unexpected high car repair bills coupled with having to save for a long-delayed vacation to Costa Rica. It was kind of frustrating when I looked at the fact that despite this I had still managed to save 8k and invest it, but my net worth actually decreased. I know it will go back up and hit my target, but right now I'm splurging on small stuff that makes me happy like going to a club and getting a good meal, but still not spending extravagantly. I can't wait for my trip to refresh though as I'm thinking about long term goals including ideas for expanding my woodworking side venture, and increasing payments on my house. Costa Rica will be very good for me as I have always wanted to have a vacation property out of the country in a tropical beach environment, and it seems to fit this picture. When I am there I am going to talk to others who have moved from the US about healthcare, COL, quality of life, feasibility, buying property and banking, and owning a business there. Long story short in the next ten years if I succeed, I would like to own a house there and a business, and live there half the year every year, and the rest of the year in the states.

[letired]

When I get frugality fatigue, it's usually because I've been obsessing too much. What helps me the most is to put away the spreadsheets and trackers and go do one of my projects (I have about a million). I usually aim for one of the projects for which I have all the supplies, or a project that doesn't cost any money (foraging for native plants in soon-to-be-construction zones, heyo!), but sometimes it's a project where I have to buy supplies or something (garden wall building, wall smoothing, indoor wall painting). Then I focus on the project for a while (a few weeks is usually good), and by the time I'd done, I'm renewed.

[spokey doke]

Every now and then it hits me: frugality fatigue.

I would love to hear your favourite ways of getting the better of this little demon.

What I do so far:

1. Look at what else is happening in my life, am I stressed, sad, feeling helpless for some reason? Then I look for other ways to satisfy the emotional need.

2. Read MMM

3. Remind myself of the end goal

4. Give in to little luxuries

What do you do?

It's counter-intuitive. But, I plan on obtaining a big, relatively expensive luxury object.

I go through the planning and research for a big luxury item, then typically don't buy it...in the process I usually realize or appreciate that the purchase would be rather ridiculous and is counter productive.

But sometimes I actually do it...

[Kaybee]

I'm going through it right now (and I'm not even a hard-core Mustachian).  I find it more difficult since many of my friends are into recreational shopping and eating out.  I realized I was having issues when I stopped caring about what I spend, although I'm still not nearly as much of a "consumer" as non-Mustachians.

Now that I've realized it, I'm trying to keep myself occupied and introduce novelty into my life in other ways.  For instance, I *wanted* to buy new furniture (I have absolutely no need for new furniture) but really, I just wanted a change so I've rearranged my furniture and swapped around the decorative elements I already have.  I want to go shopping but digging through my closet usually finds things that I love and can combine differently (that'll be today's project!).

All this being said, I feel "frugal fatigue" most when there is something else bothering me.  Right now, I'm recovering from a back injury so having to be fairly low-key...I'm stressed and irritable about my back so things like watching my spending annoy me.

[AM43]

Honestly, if I ever felt that way I would re-evaluate my entire system. I strongly believe in living your ideal life (or as close to it as possible while still working) during the path to FI, and that if you're doing that, you shouldn't be feeling any sort of fatigue, deprivation, stress, or anything else unpleasant. Day to day life shouldn't require willpower or motivation, because that just plain sucks. It should be easy, natural, fun, and require minimal effort. You just need to figure out a way to do all that and also spend hardly anything, which is straightforward enough (and you only have to figure it out once to be set for life).

^^This
Well said.

[GuitarStv]

Honestly, if I ever felt that way I would re-evaluate my entire system. I strongly believe in living your ideal life (or as close to it as possible while still working) during the path to FI, and that if you're doing that, you shouldn't be feeling any sort of fatigue, deprivation, stress, or anything else unpleasant. Day to day life shouldn't require willpower or motivation, because that just plain sucks. It should be easy, natural, fun, and require minimal effort. You just need to figure out a way to do all that and also spend hardly anything, which is straightforward enough (and you only have to figure it out once to be set for life).

^^This
Well said.

+1

[mustache you a question]

Every now and then it hits me: frugality fatigue.

Have you felt it too? How did you cope?

What I do so far:

1. Look at what else is happening in my life, am I stressed, sad, feeling helpless for some reason? Then I look for other ways to satisfy the emotional need.

2. Read MMM

3. Remind myself of the end goal

4. Give in to little luxuries

What do you do?

Interesting question.  I usually just look at my spreadsheet and see how much progress I've made.  Helps me refocus and think about the long term.

[ElleFiji]

Reorganize my closet
Home spa night
Good grocery store treats
Look up fancy menus and use them as my recipes

[aGracefulStomp]

I reckon if you (or anyone) is feeling this way, then you may be dipping into the dreaded deprivation zone. I would pinpoint what exactly is causing you to feel fatigued and figure out how to change / improve it. Otherwise you will probably burn out and throw out the baby in the bathwater.

For example the only thing I feel fatigued/deprived by is my living situation - I've stayed in my "university student house" and live with 4 other people in an old house. I am definitely getting over it and would like to live with one or two other people but the housing costs in my city are insane and it would significantly lower my savings rate. Also living in a place that isn't nice acts as a reminder that I have not financially 'made it' (YET!), which influences my other life/financial decisions. Nevertheless, I think I'll give it another year and move out - FIRE lifestyle should not be a source of unhappiness. I'm hoping by that time that my salary has gone up enough to cover the extra expenses so I can maintain the same $ amount of savings.

In the mean time I try and make my room as nice as possible,  enjoy the house as much as possible in the rare times that it's empty, calculate the relatively high savings I'm making, and also remind myself that my house is absolute luxury compared to 95% of the world population. I have my own room? amazing!! The house has electricity and running water and working plumbing? insane!!

[JayKay]

Honestly, if I ever felt that way I would re-evaluate my entire system. I strongly believe in living your ideal life (or as close to it as possible while still working) during the path to FI, and that if you're doing that, you shouldn't be feeling any sort of fatigue, deprivation, stress, or anything else unpleasant. Day to day life shouldn't require willpower or motivation, because that just plain sucks. It should be easy, natural, fun, and require minimal effort. You just need to figure out a way to do all that and also spend hardly anything, which is straightforward enough (and you only have to figure it out once to be set for life).

I think it's fantastic that your pursuit turned out to be so natural and wish I could say the same.  I feel like my pursuit has been a demoralizing battle lasting years and I often feel defeated.  I'm hoping that's not the case with most people, but I'd be surprised if I'm alone in feeling this way.

[Zikoris]

Honestly, if I ever felt that way I would re-evaluate my entire system. I strongly believe in living your ideal life (or as close to it as possible while still working) during the path to FI, and that if you're doing that, you shouldn't be feeling any sort of fatigue, deprivation, stress, or anything else unpleasant. Day to day life shouldn't require willpower or motivation, because that just plain sucks. It should be easy, natural, fun, and require minimal effort. You just need to figure out a way to do all that and also spend hardly anything, which is straightforward enough (and you only have to figure it out once to be set for life).

I think it's fantastic that your pursuit turned out to be so natural and wish I could say the same.  I feel like my pursuit has been a demoralizing battle lasting years and I often feel defeated.  I'm hoping that's not the case with most people, but I'd be surprised if I'm alone in feeling this way.

Then you and the other people are doing it wrong. Think about it - you generally need to be able to sustain your pre-FIRE lifestyle after retirement. If you feel demoralized and shitty now, how are you going to feel after going through that for 50 years or more? That sounds like hell. You should fix what you're doing now.

[Retire-Canada]

That sounds like hell. You should fix what you're doing now.

Yup. We are all chasing self-imposed goals. If you are failing at a self-imposed goal and can't see an obvious way to succeed [without being miserable] you can always change the goal. I'd rather be happy and working than retired and miserable.

[ixtap]

Honestly, if I ever felt that way I would re-evaluate my entire system. I strongly believe in living your ideal life (or as close to it as possible while still working) during the path to FI, and that if you're doing that, you shouldn't be feeling any sort of fatigue, deprivation, stress, or anything else unpleasant. Day to day life shouldn't require willpower or motivation, because that just plain sucks. It should be easy, natural, fun, and require minimal effort. You just need to figure out a way to do all that and also spend hardly anything, which is straightforward enough (and you only have to figure it out once to be set for life).

I think it's fantastic that your pursuit turned out to be so natural and wish I could say the same.  I feel like my pursuit has been a demoralizing battle lasting years and I often feel defeated.  I'm hoping that's not the case with most people, but I'd be surprised if I'm alone in feeling this way.

Then you and the other people are doing it wrong. Think about it - you generally need to be able to sustain your pre-FIRE lifestyle after retirement. If you feel demoralized and shitty now, how are you going to feel after going through that for 50 years or more? That sounds like hell. You should fix what you're doing now.

Have you ever had to lose significant amounts of weight? To keep it off you need to make permanent changes that doesn't mean it gets easier for everyone and people need to share tricks and tips to keep themselves going.

[Zikoris]

Honestly, if I ever felt that way I would re-evaluate my entire system. I strongly believe in living your ideal life (or as close to it as possible while still working) during the path to FI, and that if you're doing that, you shouldn't be feeling any sort of fatigue, deprivation, stress, or anything else unpleasant. Day to day life shouldn't require willpower or motivation, because that just plain sucks. It should be easy, natural, fun, and require minimal effort. You just need to figure out a way to do all that and also spend hardly anything, which is straightforward enough (and you only have to figure it out once to be set for life).

I think it's fantastic that your pursuit turned out to be so natural and wish I could say the same.  I feel like my pursuit has been a demoralizing battle lasting years and I often feel defeated.  I'm hoping that's not the case with most people, but I'd be surprised if I'm alone in feeling this way.

Then you and the other people are doing it wrong. Think about it - you generally need to be able to sustain your pre-FIRE lifestyle after retirement. If you feel demoralized and shitty now, how are you going to feel after going through that for 50 years or more? That sounds like hell. You should fix what you're doing now.

Have you ever had to lose significant amounts of weight? To keep it off you need to make permanent changes that doesn't mean it gets easier for everyone and people need to share tricks and tips to keep themselves going.

I don't think anyone would be successful at losing and keeping off weight if they used a system that required tons of dedication and left them feeling like shit constantly. I haven't read the stats, but I would imagine the vast majority of people who lose and keep off weight succeed by making the required changes a natural part of their lifestyle that doesn't require too much ongoing effort. Finding exercise options that are fun, learning how to make healthy meals that also taste good, and so on.

[ixtap]

Honestly, if I ever felt that way I would re-evaluate my entire system. I strongly believe in living your ideal life (or as close to it as possible while still working) during the path to FI, and that if you're doing that, you shouldn't be feeling any sort of fatigue, deprivation, stress, or anything else unpleasant. Day to day life shouldn't require willpower or motivation, because that just plain sucks. It should be easy, natural, fun, and require minimal effort. You just need to figure out a way to do all that and also spend hardly anything, which is straightforward enough (and you only have to figure it out once to be set for life).

I think it's fantastic that your pursuit turned out to be so natural and wish I could say the same.  I feel like my pursuit has been a demoralizing battle lasting years and I often feel defeated.  I'm hoping that's not the case with most people, but I'd be surprised if I'm alone in feeling this way.

Then you and the other people are doing it wrong. Think about it - you generally need to be able to sustain your pre-FIRE lifestyle after retirement. If you feel demoralized and shitty now, how are you going to feel after going through that for 50 years or more? That sounds like hell. You should fix what you're doing now.

Have you ever had to lose significant amounts of weight? To keep it off you need to make permanent changes that doesn't mean it gets easier for everyone and people need to share tricks and tips to keep themselves going.

I don't think anyone would be successful at losing and keeping off weight if they used a system that required tons of dedication and left them feeling like shit constantly. I haven't read the stats, but I would imagine the vast majority of people who lose and keep off weight succeed by making the required changes a natural part of their lifestyle that doesn't require too much ongoing effort. Finding exercise options that are fun, learning how to make healthy meals that also taste good, and so on.

The point is that it takes time for most people to figure all that out. It takes a lot of trial and error, which leads to the kind of fatigue mentioned here. "You are doing it wrong" doesn't help them find the right for them solution.

[Retire-Canada]

The point is that it takes time for most people to figure all that out. It takes a lot of trial and error, which leads to the kind of fatigue mentioned here. "You are doing it wrong" doesn't help them find the right for them solution.

Trial and error is fine, but the poster in question reports years of demoralizing battles. There is something wrong with that situation beyond working through a trial and error process to get things optimized. Shit going sideways and making you feel bad for years needs a course correction as Zikoris pointed out.

[JayKay]

Hi everyone

I have realized for awhile now that my journey isn't the way it normally goes but what exactly to do about the anxiety and other feelings is unclear.

DW thinks I just put too much pressure on myself, but it's tough for me to just "let it happen" and "enjoy the journey".

The big irony to all of this is that, through all these years I kept telling myself that once I FIRE, life would promptly cease to suck and it'll just be margaritas on the beach forever!  But now that I'm closer to it, it's obvious that FIRE really didn't promise me anything more than my bills would be paid.  All that extra stuff was just a lie I told myself to keep me getting up in the morning.

I think I have to just put a lot more thought into why I even want to FIRE in the first place and, if I do, what it will even look like.  No more fantasyland, no more vague hand-wavy "I'll have more time to do unspecified fun things!" type thinking.

Thanks for your insight and support on this.

[jim555]

I never had frugal fatigue.  I have the opposite problem, getting into spending mode from frugal mode.

[katscratch]

Hi everyone

I have realized for awhile now that my journey isn't the way it normally goes but what exactly to do about the anxiety and other feelings is unclear.

DW thinks I just put too much pressure on myself, but it's tough for me to just "let it happen" and "enjoy the journey".

The big irony to all of this is that, through all these years I kept telling myself that once I FIRE, life would promptly cease to suck and it'll just be margaritas on the beach forever!  But now that I'm closer to it, it's obvious that FIRE really didn't promise me anything more than my bills would be paid.  All that extra stuff was just a lie I told myself to keep me getting up in the morning.

I think I have to just put a lot more thought into why I even want to FIRE in the first place and, if I do, what it will even look like.  No more fantasyland, no more vague hand-wavy "I'll have more time to do unspecified fun things!" type thinking.

Thanks for your insight and support on this.

The bolded part is key. I am finding as I get older that, yeah, I make progress toward goals regardless of my motivation, just because I said I would. BUT the goals that are enjoyable are the ones where I know my "why" -- the goals that get boring are the ones "just because".

[SugarMountain]

I don't think anyone would be successful at losing and keeping off weight if they used a system that required tons of dedication and left them feeling like shit constantly. I haven't read the stats, but I would imagine the vast majority of people who lose and keep off weight succeed by making the required changes a natural part of their lifestyle that doesn't require too much ongoing effort. Finding exercise options that are fun, learning how to make healthy meals that also taste good, and so on.

Very few people are successful at losing weight and keeping it off long term, and those that are tend to build their lives around it, i.e. end up being personal trainers/nutritionists/etc.

[WhiteTrashCash]

I don't think anyone would be successful at losing and keeping off weight if they used a system that required tons of dedication and left them feeling like shit constantly. I haven't read the stats, but I would imagine the vast majority of people who lose and keep off weight succeed by making the required changes a natural part of their lifestyle that doesn't require too much ongoing effort. Finding exercise options that are fun, learning how to make healthy meals that also taste good, and so on.

Very few people are successful at losing weight and keeping it off long term, and those that are tend to build their lives around it, i.e. end up being personal trainers/nutritionists/etc.

You are probably correct. I lost 40 lbs doing martial arts and I keep the weight off by teaching classes in martial arts these days. I end up exercising about 15 hours a week due to that fact. If you want to stay in shape, the best way to do it is to find a way to get paid to exercise.

[Drifterrider]

Being frugal, thrifty, "moustachian" doesn't mean doing without.  It means making best choices when it comes to finance.  Getting the most "bang for the buck".

I drink Eight O'clock coffee.  That is what I like, that is what I buy.  When it is on sale for half price, I stock up (20-30 bags).  To me, that IS being thrifty.

When it comes to sodas (Coke, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper), I like them all equally so I buy what ever is less expensive (even if only one penny).  If the price is too high, I drink tea. 

I pass the grocery store every day after work.  I am learning their pattern of sales and discounts. 

[EmFrugal]

I don't think anyone would be successful at losing and keeping off weight if they used a system that required tons of dedication and left them feeling like shit constantly. I haven't read the stats, but I would imagine the vast majority of people who lose and keep off weight succeed by making the required changes a natural part of their lifestyle that doesn't require too much ongoing effort. Finding exercise options that are fun, learning how to make healthy meals that also taste good, and so on.

Very few people are successful at losing weight and keeping it off long term, and those that are tend to build their lives around it, i.e. end up being personal trainers/nutritionists/etc.

You are probably correct. I lost 40 lbs doing martial arts and I keep the weight off by teaching classes in martial arts these days. I end up exercising about 15 hours a week due to that fact. If you want to stay in shape, the best way to do it is to find a way to get paid to exercise.

I think being successful at losing weight and being successful at saving money/living a mustachian lifestyle has a lot to do with making slow, gradual changes over time. If you go all in at once, yes, you may reach part of your goal. But you are going to burn out like crazy. If you make one small change at a time, while still allowing yourself some personal joy along the way, then you are going to be set up for success for the long term. I can't just drastcially change my spending habits and do things exactly as MMM recommends all at once. But what I can do is assess what frugal choice will make the most impact for me and where I can still spend and bring value to my life. Then as time goes on, I can assess a new area.

I definitely agree that asking yourself WHY you are making this choice is the fundamental question. Look at your life and realistically ask yourself what you want it to look like when you dial back with work. What things bring the most value and meaning to your life? In some cases you may still be working to bring in income, but it should be doing something you really enjoy and find fulfilling. I also believe living the reality of sitting on the beach drinking margaritas all day would get old fast. You probably would not feel very fulfilled after a while. So think long and hard about what is fulfilling and build your savings goals around that, while trying to incorporate some of that into your life now as well.

[JayKay]

I definitely agree that asking yourself WHY you are making this choice is the fundamental question. Look at your life and realistically ask yourself what you want it to look like when you dial back with work. What things bring the most value and meaning to your life? In some cases you may still be working to bring in income, but it should be doing something you really enjoy and find fulfilling. I also believe living the reality of sitting on the beach drinking margaritas all day would get old fast. You probably would not feel very fulfilled after a while. So think long and hard about what is fulfilling and build your savings goals around that, while trying to incorporate some of that into your life now as well.

I think part of the issue in my case has to do with becoming institutionalized.  A while ago, I watched a documentary about people getting out of jail after a long stint, 10 years or more, and it was really scary that many of their issues are paralleled in my own life.  They've been held under duress for a long time and have had to fundamentally change who they are to just survive.  (Anyone who's spent years/decades chasing FIRE will attest that they've had to undergo huge and sometimes destructive/erosive personality changes just to keep themselves on track)  So it's really pointless (and even insensitive) to even ask them what they want out of life when they get out, since they've lost most of what made them "them".

EDIT: Please note that I'm not calling anyone out here on being insensitive, I'm really just trying to make sense of what's happening in my head.

I think that's why post-prison (and some retirement) plans are often fanciful and not well thought-out.  The people that are making them have been erased so there's no internal compass other than simple things like fun and comfort.  And so we get plans like "margaritas on the beach forever".

I feel like when I'm truly out of Shawshank, so to speak, I won't even be in the position to ask myself what I want.  I'll be first asking who I am.

[ixtap]

  (Anyone who's spent years/decades chasing FIRE will attest that they've had to undergo huge and sometimes destructive/erosive personality changes just to keep themselves on track)  So it's really pointless (and even insensitive) to even ask them what they want out of life when they get out, since they've lost most of what made them "them".

I cannot see the parallel with FIRE. What destructive personality changes are required? Who is obliging anyone to be frugal against their will?

Furthermore, any changes made are meant to be both a means and an end. Some people focus on the means and don't put much though into the end beyond rainbows and unicorns. I don't think I have ever met anyone who went to jail with a purpose beyond room and board. Sure, several have found a purpose and the means to better themselves there (although not likely the majority), but it isn't like anyone has ever said "You know what, I will commit a felony in order to get that free college education."

[Retire-Canada]

(Anyone who's spent years/decades chasing FIRE will attest that they've had to undergo huge and sometimes destructive/erosive personality changes just to keep themselves on track)

That's sounds crazy to me. If I was being harmed in any way by my quest for FIRE I'd make a change. It just isn't worth being damaged to achieve that goal.

[alleykat]

(Anyone who's spent years/decades chasing FIRE will attest that they've had to undergo huge and sometimes destructive/erosive personality changes just to keep themselves on track)

That's sounds crazy to me. If I was being harmed in any way by my quest for FIRE I'd make a change. It just isn't worth being damaged to achieve that goal.

I totally agree. No way. We have one life, I am not going to spend it in self- imposed misery. 

[Case]

Honestly, if I ever felt that way I would re-evaluate my entire system. I strongly believe in living your ideal life (or as close to it as possible while still working) during the path to FI, and that if you're doing that, you shouldn't be feeling any sort of fatigue, deprivation, stress, or anything else unpleasant. Day to day life shouldn't require willpower or motivation, because that just plain sucks. It should be easy, natural, fun, and require minimal effort. You just need to figure out a way to do all that and also spend hardly anything, which is straightforward enough (and you only have to figure it out once to be set for life).

^^This
Well said.

+1

This totally depends on how much money you take relative to the minimum you need to spend in order to feel satisfied.  For the fancy-pants tech crowd here, it's easy to cruise by on $100,000+ salaries, indulge on the occasional extravagant luxury, and still save a shit ton of money.  For the regular person making $50k/year, totally different.

For whatever variety of reasons, a lot of people on this forum (myself included), have it 'easy'.

[jim555]

(Anyone who's spent years/decades chasing FIRE will attest that they've had to undergo huge and sometimes destructive/erosive personality changes just to keep themselves on track)

I will attest to this??  Nope.  Don't know where you came up with this.

[Retire-Canada]

This totally depends on how much money you take relative to the minimum you need to spend in order to feel satisfied.  For the fancy-pants tech crowd here, it's easy to cruise by on $100,000+ salaries, indulge on the occasional extravagant luxury, and still save a shit ton of money.  For the regular person making $50k/year, totally different.

For whatever variety of reasons, a lot of people on this forum (myself included), have it 'easy'.

How big your salary is relative to your COL definitely makes achieving FIRE easier or more challenging, but that doesn't change the fact it's not worth doing if you feel you are being damaged in the process.

If I was comfortable spending $40K/yr and I made $45K/yr after taxes I'd sock away that $5K and be okay with not retiring at an early age. I'd look at my spending assumptions and see if I could reduce it without any hardship. I'd also look at ways to earn more without killing myself, but if neither of those two options worked for me I'd set a target for retirement that I could achieve without suffering even if that meant 65 instead of early retirement.

[GuitarStv]

This totally depends on how much money you take relative to the minimum you need to spend in order to feel satisfied.  For the fancy-pants tech crowd here, it's easy to cruise by on $100,000+ salaries, indulge on the occasional extravagant luxury, and still save a shit ton of money.  For the regular person making $50k/year, totally different.

For whatever variety of reasons, a lot of people on this forum (myself included), have it 'easy'.

How big your salary is relative to your COL definitely makes achieving FIRE easier or more challenging, but that doesn't change the fact it's not work doing if you feel you are being damaged in the process.

If I was comfortable spending $40K/yr and I made $45K/yr after taxes I'd sock away that $5K and be okay with not retiring at an early age. I'd look at my spending assumptions and see if I could reduce it without any hardship. I'd also look at ways to earn more without killing myself, but if neither of those two options worked for me I'd set a target for retirement that I could achieve without suffering even if that meant 65 instead of early retirement.

Yeah, that's kinda how I see it too.  If I was making half the salary and my wife didn't work, I'd resign myself to taking longer to get to the FI part (maybe missing out on the RE entirely) long before I'd making my waking life miserable.

[alleykat]

Honestly, if I ever felt that way I would re-evaluate my entire system. I strongly believe in living your ideal life (or as close to it as possible while still working) during the path to FI, and that if you're doing that, you shouldn't be feeling any sort of fatigue, deprivation, stress, or anything else unpleasant. Day to day life shouldn't require willpower or motivation, because that just plain sucks. It should be easy, natural, fun, and require minimal effort. You just need to figure out a way to do all that and also spend hardly anything, which is straightforward enough (and you only have to figure it out once to be set for life).

^^This
Well said.

+1
[/quote}


+2

[elaine amj]

I think part of the issue in my case has to do with becoming institutionalized.  A while ago, I watched a documentary about people getting out of jail after a long stint, 10 years or more, and it was really scary that many of their issues are paralleled in my own life.  They've been held under duress for a long time and have had to fundamentally change who they are to just survive.  (Anyone who's spent years/decades chasing FIRE will attest that they've had to undergo huge and sometimes destructive/erosive personality changes just to keep themselves on track)  So it's really pointless (and even insensitive) to even ask them what they want out of life when they get out, since they've lost most of what made them "them".

EDIT: Please note that I'm not calling anyone out here on being insensitive, I'm really just trying to make sense of what's happening in my head.

I think that's why post-prison (and some retirement) plans are often fanciful and not well thought-out.  The people that are making them have been erased so there's no internal compass other than simple things like fun and comfort.  And so we get plans like "margaritas on the beach forever".

I feel like when I'm truly out of Shawshank, so to speak, I won't even be in the position to ask myself what I want.  I'll be first asking who I am.

JayKay I'll jump in and add to the chorus. To be honest, your perspective on what you are trying to accomplish is concerning. Figure out who you are now. That should not change after FIRE.

The goal here is not to live like a miser and then have a ton of money to blow in retirement. That's a different community. Here, we talk about changing your lifestyle and spending habits now to something that will be sustainable for the rest of your life. Being present in your NOW is really important. As is learning that spending money does not equate happiness (I love the thread on cheap things that give you joy).  My big question now is not "how much do I need to live?" but "how little do I need to live?"

As for your question on frugal fatigue - the thing that sometimes bug me is that I can't just wave my magic wand (money) and my problems disappear. I would LOVE to have all the little chores I hate taken care of (housekeeping, home repairs, etc). I would also love to treat my family members to more things, vacations, etc. Oh and have a fancier house like everybody else. And eat out more often. But when it comes down to the nuts and bolts, I have a very extravagant and luxurious life and I do spend money on things I care about. I'm OK sacrificing some of the other stuff for the FIRE carrot dangling in front of me.

[Fire2025]

This totally depends on how much money you take relative to the minimum you need to spend in order to feel satisfied.  For the fancy-pants tech crowd here, it's easy to cruise by on $100,000+ salaries, indulge on the occasional extravagant luxury, and still save a shit ton of money.  For the regular person making $50k/year, totally different.

For whatever variety of reasons, a lot of people on this forum (myself included), have it 'easy'.

I make about 60,000/year save 50% of my income, I also live in a HCOL area and 60% of my spending money goes to my mortgage, so I realize that in comparison, my life may look extreme.  But I'm still pretty happy and feel like my life is pretty luxurious. 

Sometimes unhappiness is based on circumstances and sometimes it's internal.  I don't know the income level of the OP, but if you have been miserable for years, Early Retirement is the least of your worries. 

I would say open the flood gates for the next 6 months.  Spend any amount you want, of your income, no debt, and see how you feel.  If at first if feels great and then you go back to being unhappy, you have your answer.  The unhappiness is coming from inside, not your early retirement journey.  IF you feel better the whole 6 months, deprivation is your problem, and maybe you need to consider a glide path approach to retirement.  What will your current investments, with minimal additions, look like when you reach 65??

[JayKay]

I'm now thinking this may not have been the right place to share my experiences with FIRE - it just served to anger and confuse people.

It looks like what I'm trying to solve isn't one of the normal challenges people encounter so I'll need to figure something else out.

Thanks

[Ann]

I'm now thinking this may not have been the right place to share my experiences with FIRE - it just served to anger and confuse people.

It looks like what I'm trying to solve isn't one of the normal challenges people encounter so I'll need to figure something else out.

Thanks

I feel as though your instincts may be right that you need something more than this thread to conquer the internal challenges you face.  That's tough.  I sincerely wish you luck with your situation.

Please don't feel as though you have angered anyone.  I obviously can only truly speak for myself, but mostly people seemed concerned.  And yes, maybe confused because they didn't share your experiences or impressions about FIRE. 

[elaine amj]

I'm now thinking this may not have been the right place to share my experiences with FIRE - it just served to anger and confuse people.

It looks like what I'm trying to solve isn't one of the normal challenges people encounter so I'll need to figure something else out.

Thanks

Confusion yes but definitely no anger although I'm sure you now feel defensive. What we're basically saying is that no, this isn't normal and we're concerned that you are approaching FIRE in a personally damaging way.

[Goldielocks]

I'm now thinking this may not have been the right place to share my experiences with FIRE - it just served to anger and confuse people.

It looks like what I'm trying to solve isn't one of the normal challenges people encounter so I'll need to figure something else out.

Thanks

You are on the right track to know that this feeling is not "right" and needs solving.   What you described is more like how I felt working for a high salary, with lots of stress, business travel, etc.

I was angry a lot with family, drank more than I should, stressed out and a jellyfish after my long workday work week was done, no time or interest in trying to have friends.  Self-destructive behaviour in the name of making money...  complete with lots of other people "admiring" me for my role and achievements.   Ugh.   For me, FIRE was my way to change all of that, and saving $$'s was simple, easy and controllable compared to dealing with work stress.

[Linea_Norway]

This hit me every a few years ago.  I think it is a matter of the goal feeling too far away to motivate.  I spent some time trying to just live in the present and increase my pleasure and enjoyment today (socializing, reading, camping - whatever you love). We need pleasure - our lives can not always be about deferred gratification.  One year I made a New Year's resolution to have more fun. And I actively went after that goal and used it as a metric to make decisions.   It changed the way I live, permanently.  The key is, it didn't defer my FIRE date.  Increasing pleasure is not linked to increasing expenses.  Which isn't to say, you can't choose to spend more.  Just that it isn't necessary.

I agree that you should do things that make you happy. The things that you name in your example are all potentially cheap alternatives for having fun. In contrast to buying a new Tesla or other expensive things that might make some people happy.