How to avoid being a miser

[El Jacinto]

Miser is defined as "a person who hoards wealth and spends as little money as possible." That basically sounds like the negative connotation of what mustachians normally do.

While striving toward financial independence, I look at every expense through a microscope. If I spend X now, what would that money have been worth at retirement? How many hours of work is this purchase going to cost me?

That seems like a smart way to look at purchases, because it forces you to only spend on items/experiences that you truly value. At the same time, I find myself choosing not to do things that friends/family want to do. It's easy to say, "find new friends," but it's not that easy when they're also your spouse's friends, and I don't see others locally who have similar views about wasting money.

Worse, I'm overly stingy when it comes to charity. My wife is religious and wants to tithe. I use the excuse that only 30% of that might go to helping the community, but It'd hurt me just as much to give money to a cause I support (no problem volunteering time though).

Where do you find the line between being financially responsible and being a miser?

[kanga1622]

I am also quite stingy in donating money to charity.

Why can't you "tithe" in time rather than money? I have no problem supporting causes that are important to me but our budget doesn't have a lot of flex so we donate our time. Our local food pantry obviously needs donations but they also need people to pick up the donations and truck them to the pantry, people to restock the shelves, people to help those coming in understand how much/what they are eligible to take home based on family size, people to grow extra produce for donation, and people to sort the donations that come in and make sure things aren't open/too expired/etc. My 9 year old son was really excited to tour the food pantry and wants to volunteer there this summer when he's available during their shift hours. The local CSA asks for volunteers during their busiest times when they have more to pick than they can handle. There will always be a need for people to organize/market/work at fundraising events.

I think many mustachians do not hoard wealth. Many of them donate time/money/skills to churches/schools/organizations that do good in the world. Many raise children that grow up to be responsible citizens that perhaps help shape policy, research cure for illness, or just generally be a good/helpful human. I don't feel like we are a miserly group; more that we are frugal and cautious in using resources that may have a better purpose.

[jlcnuke]

"Will I regret not spending the money for this later in life?" is a great question for getting in the habit of spending money for value. I spend 3 years working full time and overtime (average of 50+ hours per week) while going to college full-time to get my degree. The damage to my friendships afterwards was very noticeable. There's only so many times you can turn down everything friends want to do before they don't bother inviting you anymore. How much is alienating friends/family worth?

How much is missing out on once in a lifetime events worth? An article published recently had a short time FIRE adopter who chose to save money instead of going to a friend's wedding or another friend's first child's birth. Those are missed experiences they'll never get to recapture and they now regret being "so frugal" at the time.

How much is not feeling like you've given back to the community/causes worth? If your loved ones or you later need help that a charity may be able to provide, or could have provided with your assistance, will you regret not having given? Whether you give of money and/or time, giving back almost always has positive benefits on top of just the thought that "those of us that can afford to give back should because those who can't need our help and we're able to give it".

[Laura33]

This is a personal/personality issue more than a Mustachian one.  Yes, there are people who love Mustachianism as an excuse to hoard every penny and not spend anything on anything/anyone ever; but there are also a number of Mustachians who have followed that path in order to free up time and energy to help others -- who save a lot now because they know freedom from the corporate world will allow them to give more fully to others than simply writing a check.  There are others who believe that their faith is more important than any material thing and so will prioritize tithing above everything else, regardless of the impact on their budget.  Generosity and Mustachianism are not mutually incompatible; the question is simply how how important it is to you to be generous.

If you are looking to counteract your own tendencies, I would suggest expanding your view beyond yourself and beyond the here and now.  Right now, you have your head down and are focused intently on a singular goal:  FIRE.  But say you're 50+ years down the road and approaching the end.  What do you want the people around you to think of you?  What kind of life do you want to have led?  What do you want your legacy to be?  For the vast majority of people, that kind of long-term vision will include having fun along the way, being surrounded by people who love and respect you, maybe even leaving a mark on your community and leaving things a little better than you found them. 

The point of Mustachianism is to spend your money intentionally on things that provide value to your life, both now and over the long term (recognizing that material goods do not bring the kind of value or happiness you seek).  So if you want to get to that ultimate vision of what you want your life to have been, you need to expand your current goals to include those longer-term goals.  There are gazillion ways to do that, from spending more now to enjoy the ride a bit, to spending nothing now and devoting your time/energy to those things post-FIRE.  But you need to approach each of these decisions intentionally to ensure that the decisions you make today suit your long-term plans. 

There is also power in habit.  The more you build a life focused on saving every penny, the more you train yourself that spending any money is bad. The more you get used to a life of staying in and saying no to family and friends, the more you get used to that kind of life.  Which means that when you do get to FIRE, you will likely continue in the exact same rut that you have now etched into stone in your brain.  The decisions you make every day lay the path of your life for the next 50 years. 

IOW, if you want to be surrounded by friends and family in 50 years, those relationships need to be a priority now, and you need to find a way now to develop and maintain them rather than constantly saying no because it might cost you $20.  If you want a life filled with experiences, you probably want to find a way to have some of them along the way, instead of living 20 years with your nose to the grindstone and then expecting everything to change once you FIRE.  If you want part of your legacy to be giving to others, you need to find a way to work that into your life now.  Note that there are cheap/free ways to do all of this; it just has to be a priority for you.  And, yes, sometimes that involves meeting people where they are, not where you would like them to be; that's what relationships are.  It's all about balance. 

[Sibley]

I think what you're really asking is where's the line between frugal and cheap? Right now OP, you're being cheap. And if you continue on this path, it'll lead to you losing your friends and probably your wife.

You are hyper focused on saving/not spending, and seem to be defaulting to not spending money. You need to find a balance. It's not NEVER spending money on doing things with friends, it's thinking through your social needs, your budget, and figuring out what you're willing to do, then figuring out how to make that work with your friends. It's not NEVER giving money to charity, it's deciding on your values and your budget and choosing where/how you're going to donate.

And it's not stress yourself into oblivion with every single purchase. It's knowing when to do a quick google search or just relying on a brand name because it's a $20 toaster and seriously it's not worth that level of stress, vs in depth research because it's a $30k vehicle.

It's not about the money. It's about life ultimately. Yes, the money will enable the life, but without the life then the rest of it is meaningless.

And if you have any tendencies towards OCD or anxiety, some of this could be a symptom.

[GuitarStv]

Miser is defined as "a person who hoards wealth and spends as little money as possible." That basically sounds like the negative connotation of what mustachians normally do.

It doesn't sound negative to me.  Sounds sensible.

While striving toward financial independence, I look at every expense through a microscope. If I spend X now, what would that money have been worth at retirement? How many hours of work is this purchase going to cost me?

That seems like a smart way to look at purchases, because it forces you to only spend on items/experiences that you truly value. At the same time, I find myself choosing not to do things that friends/family want to do. It's easy to say, "find new friends," but it's not that easy when they're also your spouse's friends, and I don't see others locally who have similar views about wasting money.

Yeah, if your friends and family want to waste money it can be hard to get 'em to change their minds.  I've established a (not insubstantial) amount of money that can be spent on family/friend activities each year.  (When setting this number you have to remember that there are benefits to having friends and not pissing off everyone in your family.)  But when this amount is used up, we decline costly activities.

Worse, I'm overly stingy when it comes to charity. My wife is religious and wants to tithe. I use the excuse that only 30% of that might go to helping the community, but It'd hurt me just as much to give money to a cause I support (no problem volunteering time though).

Throwing money at a religious organization is not charitable giving, no matter what you get to write on your tax receipts.  It's funding a private club that might occasionally do charitable things if they feel like it.  Or might do their best to make the world miserable for you if you're gay.  Or transgender.  Or if you get pregnant.  Etc.  Regularly donating your time is (in my opinion) not only more valuable, but gives you a much closer and more personal connection to the people you're helping.  And then you aren't funding the bad with the good.

[El Jacinto]

Thanks for all of the feedback so far. I know I've crossed the line into being cheap. It's definitely a challenge, because I never do anything halfway, and I think a lot of that boils down to this:

And if you have any tendencies towards OCD or anxiety, some of this could be a symptom.

I have a lot of OCD tendencies. On one hand, I don't see this as a problem, because I know exactly what I want. On the other hand, it can put stress on my wife, who feels that my standards for certain things can be very high. To find the balance, maybe incorporating jlcnuke's question into my decision-making process will be helpful.

"Will I regret not spending the money for this later in life?" is a great question for getting in the habit of spending money for value.

It's possible that I am bad at assigning values to items. Going out and spending $40 on food and beer once per month will cost us $15k over 20 years, which would extend our required working life by 4 months. That's probably worth the price.

However, the same math with a tithe (or any charity) yields a very different result. $10k given annually is worth $330k in 20 years (net of inflation), which is 5.8 years longer we would have to work. That's a hard pill to swallow. Yes, I think I would regret giving that much money to anything, even a cause I believe in, when I don't yet have a lot of compound interest working for me. I like to think that I'd be more willing to give (albeit not 10%) when I have more assets working for me.

[Sibley]

Since you know you have tendencies towards OCD, I encourage you to take some of your money and see a therapist who can help you learn to recognize and manage it. It's a mental illness. Mental illness can lie to you. Make sure you control it before it controls you.

[Laura33]

And if you have any tendencies towards OCD or anxiety, some of this could be a symptom.

I have a lot of OCD tendencies. On one hand, I don't see this as a problem, because I know exactly what I want. On the other hand, it can put stress on my wife, who feels that my standards for certain things can be very high. To find the balance, maybe incorporating jlcnuke's question into my decision-making process will be helpful.

Your answer exemplifies the problem.  You know exactly what you want financially.  But your gut response ignores other aspects of what you want -- like, say, your wife to stick around and love you and to be happy together.  Right?  Your rational brain knows this (which your "on the other hand" demonstrates).  But the way you frame it up is really "what I want" as the baseline, with "what other people want" as the other side you are (grudgingly) forced to negotiate with.  That is an artificial construct that allows you to view any decision to spend money as a concession to your wife; and that, in turn, makes the whole thing "me vs. her," so you naturally gravitate to giving as little as you can get away with, so the baseline can stay closer to what you want.  And that leads you right down the path to thinking like a miser -- your priority gets to remain all about the money, and you just "give" as little as possible to keep your wife happy enough to stay put. 

As I wrote above, that is not doing you any service.  Because your real priorites aren't just about the money, are they?  They also involve relationships with other people.  Like your wife.  And the way to develop and maintain a happy relationship with your wife isn't to view every individual decision as "what I want vs. what she wants"; all that does is turn every single decision into a source of conflict and dissatisfaction -- as you saying no to something she values, or as you grudgingly being forced to spend "your" money on something you don't want.  A relationship is happy only to the extent it meets the needs of both parties.  That means your baseline in everything needs to be the unit, not you individually.  You and your wife need to work together, in advance, to talk about what each of you values, and to reach an overall compromise between saving/spending/charity/friends that meets both of your needs.  Then, when a specific issue comes up, your discussion begins with "how does this fit with our overall plan?" -- not "how little money can I get away with not spending.

[BTDretire]

Since you know you have tendencies towards OCD, I encourage you to take some of your money and see a therapist who can help you learn to recognize and manage it. It's a mental illness. Mental illness can lie to you. Make sure you control it before it controls you.

  Or. it could be he's shifted a little to one side of the bell curve and it works for him.
Whereas, if he was on the other side of the curve, he may not get anywhere.
 I suggest most of the movers and shakers, those that make things happen are shifted to the OCD side of the spectrum.
All just my opinion.

[El Jacinto]

And if you have any tendencies towards OCD or anxiety, some of this could be a symptom.

I have a lot of OCD tendencies. On one hand, I don't see this as a problem, because I know exactly what I want. On the other hand, it can put stress on my wife, who feels that my standards for certain things can be very high. To find the balance, maybe incorporating jlcnuke's question into my decision-making process will be helpful.

Your answer exemplifies the problem.  You know exactly what you want financially.  But your gut response ignores other aspects of what you want -- like, say, your wife to stick around and love you and to be happy together.  Right?  Your rational brain knows this (which your "on the other hand" demonstrates).  But the way you frame it up is really "what I want" as the baseline, with "what other people want" as the other side you are (grudgingly) forced to negotiate with.  That is an artificial construct that allows you to view any decision to spend money as a concession to your wife; and that, in turn, makes the whole thing "me vs. her," so you naturally gravitate to giving as little as you can get away with, so the baseline can stay closer to what you want.  And that leads you right down the path to thinking like a miser -- your priority gets to remain all about the money, and you just "give" as little as possible to keep your wife happy enough to stay put. 

As I wrote above, that is not doing you any service.  Because your real priorites aren't just about the money, are they?  They also involve relationships with other people.  Like your wife.  And the way to develop and maintain a happy relationship with your wife isn't to view every individual decision as "what I want vs. what she wants"; all that does is turn every single decision into a source of conflict and dissatisfaction -- as you saying no to something she values, or as you grudgingly being forced to spend "your" money on something you don't want.  A relationship is happy only to the extent it meets the needs of both parties.  That means your baseline in everything needs to be the unit, not you individually.  You and your wife need to work together, in advance, to talk about what each of you values, and to reach an overall compromise between saving/spending/charity/friends that meets both of your needs.  Then, when a specific issue comes up, your discussion begins with "how does this fit with our overall plan?" -- not "how little money can I get away with not spending.

I really do struggle with us being a team. It's no problem with parenthood, but outside of that is a different story. Here's an example from just this past weekend:

I set my sunglasses on top of my car when I get back from a bike ride, so that I can have them when I go to work the next day. DW ends up taking my car because the car seat is in it. She doesn't see the glasses, they fall off and break, and I find them on a walk later. In my mind, it was due to her inattention to detail that they broke, so the money should come out of her personal money.* She finds that unfair because she didn't do it on purpose. I don't care whether it was on purpose or not, because the result is the same. I know that's fucked up, but that's where my mind goes. It's also not the first time that her negligence has resulted in losing stuff. I guess I think that making her pay for things like this will make her more attentive in the future. Maybe that's the military in me.

By the same token, she chooses to give a bunch of our money to the church, while I would rather give a bunch of our money to retirement accounts. If we ever divorce, she gets half of what I chose to invest, while I don't get back any what she gave to the church. I find that unfair. Now, I don't think we'll divorce, as we are both of the mindset that the only things that are divorce-worthy are infidelity and abuse. However, things can also change over time. Who knows if we'll think that way 20 years from now?

We are planning to start some counseling together, just to head things like this off before they get out of control. Hopefully, we'll get on the same page through that.

*We budget ourselves $50-$100 each in personal money every month for whatever we want.

[Frankies Girl]

I set my sunglasses on top of my car when I get back from a bike ride, so that I can have them when I go to work the next day. DW ends up taking my car because the car seat is in it. She doesn't see the glasses, they fall off and break, and I find them on a walk later. In my mind, it was due to her inattention to detail that they broke, so the money should come out of her personal money.* She finds that unfair because she didn't do it on purpose. I don't care whether it was on purpose or not, because the result is the same. I know that's fucked up, but that's where my mind goes. It's also not the first time that her negligence has resulted in losing stuff. I guess I think that making her pay for things like this will make her more attentive in the future. Maybe that's the military in me.

Holy shit dude. You are the reason your glasses were lost. I can't think of any rational reason to leave them sitting ON THE TOP OF A VEHICLE. This is a great example of YOUR negligence, not hers. You have access to the interior and yet you decided instead of any number of protected nooks and crannies INSIDE the car or even on the dash, it makes more sense to set them on the top of the outside of the vehicle, where most people very likely would not notice them? You have a child young enough to require a car seat and don't understand being distracted/sleep deprived and just in a freaking hurry? Your fault, 100%. Your brain misfired - your choice was not logical and your blaming her for your own negligence is just... wow. I hope you don't do this in other aspects of your relationship. Expect her to map out all areas of the house and intuit when you decided it was a good idea to cut corners that makes sense to you, but literally is leaving booby traps for her to try to navigate lest she disappoint/neglect your perceived (faulty) logic. 

You absolutely are hurting your long range plans and likely your current relationships. Your wife and family aren't going to want to be around you and making excuses like the above. And you also should work on the very telling value you place on things like beer and eating out (you deem that acceptable) vs your wife's church/charity (you think it a total waste). SHE values it. If you love her, things that are important to her should be important to you. The fact that this isn't shows the disconnect. You sound really contemptuous of her in general and it's really good you're getting counseling because it honestly sounds to me like you don't really like your wife much so makes me wonder why you even are married/have kids.

[TVRodriguez]

Here's an example from just this past weekend:

I set my sunglasses on top of my car when I get back from a bike ride, so that I can have them when I go to work the next day. DW ends up taking my car because the car seat is in it. She doesn't see the glasses, they fall off and break, and I find them on a walk later. In my mind, it was due to her inattention to detail that they broke, so the money should come out of her personal money.* She finds that unfair because she didn't do it on purpose. I don't care whether it was on purpose or not, because the result is the same. I know that's fucked up, but that's where my mind goes. It's also not the first time that her negligence has resulted in losing stuff. I guess I think that making her pay for things like this will make her more attentive in the future. Maybe that's the military in me.

*We budget ourselves $50-$100 each in personal money every month for whatever we want.

Dude, you are 100% wrong about the sunglasses, and I would suggest that you apologize, replace them yourself, and let that be the end. 

If the car is a car that either one of you could use, then leaving sunglasses on the car was YOUR mistake because you should have known that she might take the car.  Plus, if that car has the car seat, then you should have expected her to take that car, and so that compounds your mistake.

You already "know that's fucked up," so I again strongly suggest you apologize about the sunglasses.

[RWD]

Now, I don't think we'll divorce, as we are both of the mindset that the only things that are divorce-worthy are infidelity and abuse.

Abuse is not only physical. A strong argument could be made that you are emotionally abusing your wife in the sunglasses scenario.

Accidents should be viewed as a joint loss and not have blame assigned and financial scorecards adjusted. If my wife accidentally knocked my sunglasses off the counter and stepped on them I would tell her "don't worry about it, accidents happen" and chalk up the replacement cost as the price of being humans. There's no way I would tell her to cut back on her spending to compensate for the loss. And I've accidentally broken a couple of mugs that she had sentimental attachment to while doing dishes and she has never held it against me either.

[mathlete]

+1 that the sunglasses parable is a red flag. But you're self aware enough to recognize that it might be a problem. That's really good. I think talking through some of this stuff in therapy is a good idea.

[Bloop Bloop]

If you have strong OCD / "point-scoring" tendencies (which affects a lot more people than you think) then you might want to start tracking happiness and quality time rather than spending alone. This way you have an incentive not only to be frugal (which is fine) but also to use money or time in a way that fulfils your family goals of being happy and doing what you want with your loved ones. Yes, there is a tension between money and happiness, but you are smart enough to deal with it if you allow yourself to visualise that tension.

[RetiredAt63]

I put eating out with friends in my social spending category, not my food category.  That makes the accounting match the purpose of the spending.

[Buffaloski Boris]

Have children. Problem solved. You might end up a pauper, but not a miser.

[GuitarStv]

I set my sunglasses on top of my car when I get back from a bike ride, so that I can have them when I go to work the next day. DW ends up taking my car because the car seat is in it. She doesn't see the glasses, they fall off and break, and I find them on a walk later. In my mind, it was due to her inattention to detail that they broke, so the money should come out of her personal money.* She finds that unfair because she didn't do it on purpose. I don't care whether it was on purpose or not, because the result is the same. I know that's fucked up, but that's where my mind goes. It's also not the first time that her negligence has resulted in losing stuff. I guess I think that making her pay for things like this will make her more attentive in the future. Maybe that's the military in me.

Holy shit dude. You are the reason your glasses were lost.

+1

The sunglasses are not an example of being miserly.

 It's not unreasonable to use a car for driving, which is what your girlfriend did.  It is unreasonable to expect someone to know that you forgot your pair of sunglasses on the roof of the car in the garage.  That's not a safe or valid place to store a pair of glasses.  You need to be more attentive in the future, and use a little common sense to avoid problems.

C'mon man.  You were in the military.  Do you hand in your weapon after training exercises fully loaded . . . because it'll save time getting ready for next time?

[bluebelle]

I set my sunglasses on top of my car when I get back from a bike ride, so that I can have them when I go to work the next day. DW ends up taking my car because the car seat is in it. She doesn't see the glasses, they fall off and break, and I find them on a walk later. In my mind, it was due to her inattention to detail that they broke, so the money should come out of her personal money.* She finds that unfair because she didn't do it on purpose. I don't care whether it was on purpose or not, because the result is the same. I know that's fucked up, but that's where my mind goes. It's also not the first time that her negligence has resulted in losing stuff. I guess I think that making her pay for things like this will make her more attentive in the future. Maybe that's the military in me.


*We budget ourselves $50-$100 each in personal money every month for whatever we want.

I've read this many times....in no universe can I see that it is your wife's fault for driving off with your sunglasses on top of the car unless you told her they were there, that's not a normal place to leave sunglasses.   You regularly leave sunglasses on the roof of your car overnight?   What?   Heck, I can't even see the top of my car.

[Ann]

I went through a period where I did have anxiety over spending almost anything.  I was frustrated by being “dinged” on months that I was very controlled in my personal spending only to have added expenses of birthdays or even car insurance.  How I handled this was to set up specific monthly budget for gifts and vacation .... and infrequent expenses.  I literally set up an online bank account (today is CapitalOne360 but it was ING Direct at the time) which allowed automatic transfers from my checking account into an account labeled “Gifts”, etc.  This money builds up and then when expenses come, I transfer the exact amount I spent from the online account into the checking account.

I count the money I transferred into these accounts as spending and I don’t include the amount of money in these account when I calculate my net worth.  And if in December I buy $250 worth of presents, I don’t include that in my December spending because it’s already been accounted for.

And ... yeah, that’s kinda crazy.  Money is fungible so a separate account doesn’t make mathematical sense.  But for me the psychology of it works.  I set a budget and then spending within that budget is stress free.  I guess it is like an online envelop system.  I don’t resent spending the money because long ago I decided on what I would budget in the category.

The harder part my be agreeing between two people what that budget would be. 

**And the sunglasses incident is a red flag.  If your car is the one with the car seat, then it seems it is really the family child-transport vehicle.  Storing something on top of the roof is akin to me taking my earrings off and “storing” them on the carpet next to my bed, only to get mad if some “inattentive” vacuums.  That is not a safe, reasonable storage space.  Pressuring her to replace it as though it is her fault bordering on gas-lighting.

Curious:  does your wife have her own car?

[El Jacinto]

I set my sunglasses on top of my car when I get back from a bike ride, so that I can have them when I go to work the next day. DW ends up taking my car because the car seat is in it. She doesn't see the glasses, they fall off and break, and I find them on a walk later. In my mind, it was due to her inattention to detail that they broke, so the money should come out of her personal money.* She finds that unfair because she didn't do it on purpose. I don't care whether it was on purpose or not, because the result is the same. I know that's fucked up, but that's where my mind goes. It's also not the first time that her negligence has resulted in losing stuff. I guess I think that making her pay for things like this will make her more attentive in the future. Maybe that's the military in me.


*We budget ourselves $50-$100 each in personal money every month for whatever we want.

I've read this many times....in no universe can I see that it is your wife's fault for driving off with your sunglasses on top of the car unless you told her they were there, that's not a normal place to leave sunglasses.   You regularly leave sunglasses on the roof of your car overnight?   What?   Heck, I can't even see the top of my car.

In our garage, yes. I am the one driving the car 95% of the time, and it is short enough that anyone can easily see the roof of the car before getting in. It's actually fairly commonplace in our house to put something on the car to remember to grab it when leaving. Her car is taller, so things usually get put on her hood.

However, this example appears to have completely derailed the original intent of the conversation. I got some great advice that I plan to put into use.

[Boofinator]

First, let me pile on about the sunglasses. 100% your fault. May this be a lesson that you don't leave things you care about on a motor vehicle and expect that nothing will ever happen. Best thing to do at this point would be to apologize to your wife for the uncalled for criticism and never mention the incident again except in a self-deprecating manner.

Even if the broken sunglasses were your wife's fault, you would still be best to empathize with her for the accident and offer to pay for them out of your own pocket, but accept her payment if she counteroffers. That's called love. But of course all of this hers and yours is actually fairly immaterial, since you are married and your assets are joint anyways.

A broken pair of sunglasses should be the Mustachian equivalent of a shrugged grain of sand off your back: Once a deed is in the past, learn from it and move on, rather than jeopardize your relationship by dwelling on something so inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

Miserliness is the prioritization of money over happiness. Unfortunately, many people are deluded into thinking that having more money brings about more happiness, which is not necessarily true, but rather is the path toward miserliness, covetousness, and greed. In reality, the causality is reversed, in that pursuing long-term happiness often results in more money.

[DadJokes]

Why do you think you need to optimize every dollar toward investing? If it's the idea that you'll reach happiness once you are FI, you'll find yourself miserable. Even if you think you have a good lifestyle but your SO doesn't, it's just as bad. I agree with others that marriage counseling is a good idea, because you obviously aren't a team right now.

[honeybbq]

And if you have any tendencies towards OCD or anxiety, some of this could be a symptom.

I have a lot of OCD tendencies. On one hand, I don't see this as a problem, because I know exactly what I want. On the other hand, it can put stress on my wife, who feels that my standards for certain things can be very high. To find the balance, maybe incorporating jlcnuke's question into my decision-making process will be helpful.

Your answer exemplifies the problem.  You know exactly what you want financially.  But your gut response ignores other aspects of what you want -- like, say, your wife to stick around and love you and to be happy together.  Right?  Your rational brain knows this (which your "on the other hand" demonstrates).  But the way you frame it up is really "what I want" as the baseline, with "what other people want" as the other side you are (grudgingly) forced to negotiate with.  That is an artificial construct that allows you to view any decision to spend money as a concession to your wife; and that, in turn, makes the whole thing "me vs. her," so you naturally gravitate to giving as little as you can get away with, so the baseline can stay closer to what you want.  And that leads you right down the path to thinking like a miser -- your priority gets to remain all about the money, and you just "give" as little as possible to keep your wife happy enough to stay put. 

As I wrote above, that is not doing you any service.  Because your real priorites aren't just about the money, are they?  They also involve relationships with other people.  Like your wife.  And the way to develop and maintain a happy relationship with your wife isn't to view every individual decision as "what I want vs. what she wants"; all that does is turn every single decision into a source of conflict and dissatisfaction -- as you saying no to something she values, or as you grudgingly being forced to spend "your" money on something you don't want.  A relationship is happy only to the extent it meets the needs of both parties.  That means your baseline in everything needs to be the unit, not you individually.  You and your wife need to work together, in advance, to talk about what each of you values, and to reach an overall compromise between saving/spending/charity/friends that meets both of your needs.  Then, when a specific issue comes up, your discussion begins with "how does this fit with our overall plan?" -- not "how little money can I get away with not spending.

I really do struggle with us being a team. It's no problem with parenthood, but outside of that is a different story. Here's an example from just this past weekend:

I set my sunglasses on top of my car when I get back from a bike ride, so that I can have them when I go to work the next day. DW ends up taking my car because the car seat is in it. She doesn't see the glasses, they fall off and break, and I find them on a walk later. In my mind, it was due to her inattention to detail that they broke, so the money should come out of her personal money.* She finds that unfair because she didn't do it on purpose. I don't care whether it was on purpose or not, because the result is the same. I know that's fucked up, but that's where my mind goes. It's also not the first time that her negligence has resulted in losing stuff. I guess I think that making her pay for things like this will make her more attentive in the future. Maybe that's the military in me.

By the same token, she chooses to give a bunch of our money to the church, while I would rather give a bunch of our money to retirement accounts. If we ever divorce, she gets half of what I chose to invest, while I don't get back any what she gave to the church. I find that unfair. Now, I don't think we'll divorce, as we are both of the mindset that the only things that are divorce-worthy are infidelity and abuse. However, things can also change over time. Who knows if we'll think that way 20 years from now?

We are planning to start some counseling together, just to head things like this off before they get out of control. Hopefully, we'll get on the same page through that.

*We budget ourselves $50-$100 each in personal money every month for whatever we want.

Sunglasses: Your fault end of story

Church vs Retirement money: You have a point here. But part of a relationship is supporting each other. Keeping score (beer vs church) is not productive or helping your relationship (it seems). So if you value your relationship over money, then you should make that choice to stop keeping tabs. Make a budget you both agree to, and then don't worry about 'where' it's going.

[charis]

I set my sunglasses on top of my car when I get back from a bike ride, so that I can have them when I go to work the next day. DW ends up taking my car because the car seat is in it. She doesn't see the glasses, they fall off and break, and I find them on a walk later. In my mind, it was due to her inattention to detail that they broke, so the money should come out of her personal money.* She finds that unfair because she didn't do it on purpose. I don't care whether it was on purpose or not, because the result is the same. I know that's fucked up, but that's where my mind goes. It's also not the first time that her negligence has resulted in losing stuff. I guess I think that making her pay for things like this will make her more attentive in the future. Maybe that's the military in me.


*We budget ourselves $50-$100 each in personal money every month for whatever we want.

I've read this many times....in no universe can I see that it is your wife's fault for driving off with your sunglasses on top of the car unless you told her they were there, that's not a normal place to leave sunglasses.   You regularly leave sunglasses on the roof of your car overnight?   What?   Heck, I can't even see the top of my car.

In our garage, yes. I am the one driving the car 95% of the time, and it is short enough that anyone can easily see the roof of the car before getting in. It's actually fairly commonplace in our house to put something on the car to remember to grab it when leaving. Her car is taller, so things usually get put on her hood.

However, this example appears to have completely derailed the original intent of the conversation. I got some great advice that I plan to put into use.

I think you might be missing the point of the reactions to this anecdote.  If you put something on the car and your wife drives off with it up there, it is not her fault, no matter how commonplace it is.  If you've both agreed that putting things on a car is a good idea, you are both to blame.  But the biggest problem is demanding that she pay for it to teach her to pay attention better.  You are not a team.

[Villanelle]

Whoa!

I feel like the vibe of this thread changed dramatically with the sunglasses story.  At first it seemed like it was about a guy who might be too focused on numbers, at the expense of other priorities on his life.

Then it just because someone who is a self-involved narcicist with a fair amount of contempt for his wife, it seems.

The top of a car is not a place to store sunglasses.  Since you speak about her like she is a child who needs to be taught a lesson, you deserve to "pay for things like this so that maybe you will make better decisions in the future".  You put your sunglasses in a stupid place, as a result of that, they were destroyed, and like a petulant child you want someone else to pay for that decision?  (Also, why put them on the car instead of in the car?  But that's not at all the point.)

Assuming this is an example that can be extrapolated into a frequent line of thought for you, I think that learning responsibility and empathy would best serve you, and the money decisions will likely fall into place if/when you are able to work on this.  That's a very difficult thing to develop later in life though so it may be a long road, and you almost certainly won't get there without the assistance of a trained therapist.

[Schaefer Light]

Miser is defined as "a person who hoards wealth and spends as little money as possible."

I guess I'm a miser, then.

[OtherJen]

I guess I think that making her pay for things like this will make her more attentive in the future.

Dude, this is your wife you are talking about, not a naughty toddler.

Yep. Way bigger problems here than money.

[Sibley]

OP, please, you need to see a therapist. Because you are going to destroy your family, and ultimately your life.

-You're treating your wife not as your equal partner in life, but as a disobedient child. That is abusive. It's a matter of time before she gets fed up with it and leaves you.
-If you're treating your WIFE like that, then you're at high risk of treating your child(ren) poorly as well. Unrealistic expectations, unsupportive environments, harping on every mistake or failure.... this is toxic. It causes real, and permanent damage to children. And if this happens in your real life and just in the it's possible realm, then it will most likely push your wife away even faster. A good mother will do anything to protect her child. Even, or especially, from that child's father.

You reference the military side of you. I suspect that you're so comfortable with the military style because it's predictable and orderly - which means its going to sooth the OCD tendencies.

Except life ISN'T predictable or orderly. I'm struggling because my life is just nuts. My mom is dealing with a cancer diagnosis on top of poor health. My dad has dementia and we're not sure if he can cope. My beloved cat died 6 months ago and I'm still reeling. My work environment is flirting with toxic. I'm in progress on house projects for months now, dealing with delay after delay. I'm one common cold away from a hospital stay for asthma, and literally everyone I'm around on a daily basis is sick. My coping is one thing. You, who are unable to see clearly the problem with putting sunglasses on top of a vehicle, your response would likely not be healthy.

You need help. Mental illness lies. It tells you everything's FINE dammit, and it's someone else's fault, when really, it is you. And in the meantime, you're leaving a trail of wreckage behind you.

You have a baby, yes? It's quite possible that things in your head got worse because of the baby. Because of the worry, the stress, anxiety, chaos. Whatever. That could have triggered something which was just a minor quirk into moving into the problem zone.

Think about this stuff. Talk to your friends and family who will be honest. Talk to your doctor. Talk to a therapist. Get help, before you do so much damage there's no repairing it.

[Laura33]

I set my sunglasses on top of my car when I get back from a bike ride, so that I can have them when I go to work the next day. DW ends up taking my car because the car seat is in it. She doesn't see the glasses, they fall off and break, and I find them on a walk later. In my mind, it was due to her inattention to detail that they broke, so the money should come out of her personal money.* She finds that unfair because she didn't do it on purpose. I don't care whether it was on purpose or not, because the result is the same. I know that's fucked up, but that's where my mind goes. It's also not the first time that her negligence has resulted in losing stuff. I guess I think that making her pay for things like this will make her more attentive in the future. Maybe that's the military in me.

Holy shit dude. You are the reason your glasses were lost. I can't think of any rational reason to leave them sitting ON THE TOP OF A VEHICLE. This is a great example of YOUR negligence, not hers. You have access to the interior and yet you decided instead of any number of protected nooks and crannies INSIDE the car or even on the dash, it makes more sense to set them on the top of the outside of the vehicle, where most people very likely would not notice them? You have a child young enough to require a car seat and don't understand being distracted/sleep deprived and just in a freaking hurry? Your fault, 100%. Your brain misfired - your choice was not logical and your blaming her for your own negligence is just... wow. I hope you don't do this in other aspects of your relationship. Expect her to map out all areas of the house and intuit when you decided it was a good idea to cut corners that makes sense to you, but literally is leaving booby traps for her to try to navigate lest she disappoint/neglect your perceived (faulty) logic. 

You absolutely are hurting your long range plans and likely your current relationships. Your wife and family aren't going to want to be around you and making excuses like the above. And you also should work on the very telling value you place on things like beer and eating out (you deem that acceptable) vs your wife's church/charity (you think it a total waste). SHE values it. If you love her, things that are important to her should be important to you. The fact that this isn't shows the disconnect. You sound really contemptuous of her in general and it's really good you're getting counseling because it honestly sounds to me like you don't really like your wife much so makes me wonder why you even are married/have kids.

Everything Frankie's Girl said.

I honestly don't care whose "fault" it is about the sunglasses.  You #1 problem is that you do.  You are the biggest threat to your marriage, your financial independence, your long-term happiness -- to getting all the things you want out of your life.

If you take one thing away from this conversation, it is this:  you are not the boss.  You do not get to decide what is right and wrong.  You do not have any right to "train" your wife like you would a dog or a toddler.  You have no right to set traps to test if she is finally meeting your expectations.  You are not her drill sergeant who gets to make the rules and compel everyone else to follow them.  That is 100% utter and complete bullshit.

Please, please see a therapist.  Not to help you negotiate individual problems, like who is right and wrong about sunglasses.  But to help you challenge your desperate need to be right all the time, to be in control, to have everyone around you stay within the little boxes you have assigned them. 

[Villanelle]

I set my sunglasses on top of my car when I get back from a bike ride, so that I can have them when I go to work the next day. DW ends up taking my car because the car seat is in it. She doesn't see the glasses, they fall off and break, and I find them on a walk later. In my mind, it was due to her inattention to detail that they broke, so the money should come out of her personal money.* She finds that unfair because she didn't do it on purpose. I don't care whether it was on purpose or not, because the result is the same. I know that's fucked up, but that's where my mind goes. It's also not the first time that her negligence has resulted in losing stuff. I guess I think that making her pay for things like this will make her more attentive in the future. Maybe that's the military in me.

Holy shit dude. You are the reason your glasses were lost. I can't think of any rational reason to leave them sitting ON THE TOP OF A VEHICLE. This is a great example of YOUR negligence, not hers. You have access to the interior and yet you decided instead of any number of protected nooks and crannies INSIDE the car or even on the dash, it makes more sense to set them on the top of the outside of the vehicle, where most people very likely would not notice them? You have a child young enough to require a car seat and don't understand being distracted/sleep deprived and just in a freaking hurry? Your fault, 100%. Your brain misfired - your choice was not logical and your blaming her for your own negligence is just... wow. I hope you don't do this in other aspects of your relationship. Expect her to map out all areas of the house and intuit when you decided it was a good idea to cut corners that makes sense to you, but literally is leaving booby traps for her to try to navigate lest she disappoint/neglect your perceived (faulty) logic. 

You absolutely are hurting your long range plans and likely your current relationships. Your wife and family aren't going to want to be around you and making excuses like the above. And you also should work on the very telling value you place on things like beer and eating out (you deem that acceptable) vs your wife's church/charity (you think it a total waste). SHE values it. If you love her, things that are important to her should be important to you. The fact that this isn't shows the disconnect. You sound really contemptuous of her in general and it's really good you're getting counseling because it honestly sounds to me like you don't really like your wife much so makes me wonder why you even are married/have kids.

Everything Frankie's Girl said.

I honestly don't care whose "fault" it is about the sunglasses.  You #1 problem is that you do.  You are the biggest threat to your marriage, your financial independence, your long-term happiness -- to getting all the things you want out of your life.

If you take one thing away from this conversation, it is this:  you are not the boss.  You do not get to decide what is right and wrong.  You do not have any right to "train" your wife like you would a dog or a toddler.  You have no right to set traps to test if she is finally meeting your expectations.  You are not her drill sergeant who gets to make the rules and compel everyone else to follow them.  That is 100% utter and complete bullshit.

Please, please see a therapist.  Not to help you negotiate individual problems, like who is right and wrong about sunglasses.  But to help you challenge your desperate need to be right all the time, to be in control, to have everyone around you stay within the little boxes you have assigned them.

Yes.  This.  Spot on.  I am tempted to delete my post and just repost this.

[jimmyshutter]

If I want to retire early I need to be financially responsible. Given the amount of money I feel I need to retire early will mean I will need to be a miser until that date. So, being financially responsible and being a miser is the same.

[LifeHappens]

In striving toward financial independence, I look at every expense through a microscope. If I spend X now, what would that money have been worth at retirement? How many hours of work is this purchase going to cost me?

That seems like a smart way to look at purchases, because it forces you to only spend on items/experiences that you truly value. At the same time, I find myself choosing not to do things that friends/family want to do. It's easy to say, "find new friends," but it's not that easy when they're also your spouse's friends, and I don't see others locally who have similar views about wasting money.

Worse, I'm overly stingy when it comes to charity. My wife is religious and wants to tithe.

OP, I suspect this thread has gone way beyond what you planned to discuss, but if you're still reading I do have some thoughts related to your original post.

You seem to be somewhat religious, so I will point out you appear to be turning money into an Idol. In your very first post in this thread you say you are putting money above things that are important to your family and friends. It may be a useful exercise to think about what you value in your life and whether you are spending in line with those values.

[Villanelle]

If I want to retire early I need to be financially responsible. Given the amount of money I feel I need to retire early will mean I will need to be a miser until that date. So, being financially responsible and being a miser is the same.

Not at all.  If I refuse to help out a friend in need by letting hem stay at my place for a couple weeks because it would increase my water bill by $5, I am a miser.  If I let them stay, I am not being financially irresponsible.  I am still financially responsible, but I've sacrificed $5 in order to help a dear friend in need.  A miser doesn't do that.  (Which is why a miser tends not to have friends, or a spouse, or children who are engaged and loving, or...)

Miserly connotes far, far more than just frugal.  It is also selfish.  It implies that the only factor in nearly every decision is finances.