How much would someone have to hand you today to retire?

[Drifterrider]

$500,000 (tax paid).

I'd quit immediately and draw a deferred pension in six years.

However, if my organization offers an unreduced early retirement, I'm ready to go RIGHT NOW.  (even without the half mil but I'd love to have both).

[dogboyslim]

I'm currently planning to work another 7-13 years depending on market returns and the healthcare market.  Unknown college expenses for the 3 urchins also plays into it, but I can probably figure 300k will cover them.  I have two considerations.  To get me to quit my current job and go to part-time work, probably would only take 5-600k after tax.  To get me to quit altogether, $1.5M, which is the difference between my current stache and my target FIRE amount.

[PiobStache]

Need another $3.2 million.  We have 2.8 saved, house paid for, no debts.

[Clean Shaven]

Need another $3.2 million.  We have 2.8 saved, house paid for, no debts.

Zimbabwean dollars?

[PiobStache]

Need another $3.2 million.  We have 2.8 saved, house paid for, no debts.

Zimbabwean dollars?

I don't get.  USD, of course.

[Clean Shaven]

Are you sure that $6 million USD is going to be enough?

[Monkey Uncle]

Are you sure that $6 million USD is going to be enough?

He/she is saving up to pay for the Republican-imposed health care "reform."

[soupcxan]

Need another $3.2 million.  We have 2.8 saved, house paid for, no debts.

Zimbabwean dollars?

I don't get.  USD, of course.

It's amazing how hostile this board is to anyone who wants to retire on more than $750k. Piob, I suggest you check out the forums at www.early-retirement.org or www.bogleheads.com as they are a lot less judgemental.

[tarheeldan]

It shouldn't be surprising. That's one of the basic parts of the blog and the forum - frugality and badassity mean lower spending levels. How much of the blog (and the Overheard at X threads) are spent poking fun at the ridiculous consumption patterns of most?

ERE and LeanFIRE are more aligned with my FIRE goals but are not nearly as active as these MMM forums. But these forums have definitely been diluted by mainstream thinking as the blog got popular. You think it's judgemental if you join the rugby team but want to play football. I'm bummed people are starting to wear pads and play the game wrong.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[undercover]

Any number here given without context is completely useless (other than for a small amount of entertainment). Regarding the $2.8m/need $3.2m (assuming USD), it's basically a given that their income is higher than 99% of the users of this forum. That said, relatively speaking, it's also possible that they could be on a similar ~10-15 year working path as most users on this forum, but will simply have much more money. The actual dollar amount is irrelevant.

Me for example - as long as I have basic shelter, internet access, food, and maybe $500/mo in "misc" income, I'm basically good. I value my free time more than I do working a job I don't care about so my threshold is very low in comparison to most. I also just enjoy doing my own thing, which is why I value autonomy over just about anything else. I think most here have the same itch else they would be planning for much larger 'staches.

Different people have different priorities. Some want to travel rather permanently or at least have the option (whether in a spartan manner or lavishly, who are we to judge), start businesses, give to charities, provide for their families/kids in other ways. Others have significant health issues that they don't want to leave up to chance for later in life. There's no way to know any of this from someone's "number to retire".

[marielle]

Any number here given without context is completely useless (other than for a small amount of entertainment). Regarding the $2.8m/need $3.2m (assuming USD), it's basically a given that their income is higher than 99% of the users of this forum. That said, relatively speaking, it's also possible that they could be on a similar ~10-15 year working path as most users on this forum, but will simply have much more money. The actual dollar amount is irrelevant.

Part of this forum/blog is about not being wasteful. To me that just sounds like a wasteful lifestyle, even if it takes them only 5 years to get there. To each his own...this just doesn't seem like the right place for that. The only exception maybe is if they have family members with expensive health care needs or something of that sort. Or maybe they like to give to charity a lot. There are a lot of possibilities but it's hard to tell just from a number. I personally don't like being so wasteful and spendy when there are people that have nothing (and I used to be one of them).

[aperture]

Interesting thread. We are in class of 2018 (with a caveat).  I am working at this point to hit a retirement threshold with MegaCorp and also because I took a new position last year and feel obliged to accomplish that role through middle of 2018. 

I no longer have a $ number that would make me quit tomorrow, (though chest pain and abnormal troponin might put me on a fast flight out of the office.)  If a windfall dropped in our lap, I would see if I could put it into some sort of trust for the kid's education or retirement.
Best wishes, aperture.

[undercover]

Any number here given without context is completely useless (other than for a small amount of entertainment). Regarding the $2.8m/need $3.2m (assuming USD), it's basically a given that their income is higher than 99% of the users of this forum. That said, relatively speaking, it's also possible that they could be on a similar ~10-15 year working path as most users on this forum, but will simply have much more money. The actual dollar amount is irrelevant.

Part of this forum/blog is about not being wasteful. To me that just sounds like a wasteful lifestyle, even if it takes them only 5 years to get there. To each his own...this just doesn't seem like the right place for that. The only exception maybe is if they have family members with expensive health care needs or something of that sort. Or maybe they like to give to charity a lot. There are a lot of possibilities but it's hard to tell just from a number. I personally don't like being so wasteful and spendy when there are people that have nothing (and I used to be one of them).

Yes, in some ways. But, please universally define waste. Good luck. From my point of view, existence itself is a waste, as is having babies. But can I convince very many people of that? Nah. That's why I get really annoyed when people try to define "how much is enough". From an objective standpoint, the blog is more about "savings rate" than anything.

[Much Fishing to Do]

I think if someone

Need another $3.2 million.  We have 2.8 saved, house paid for, no debts.

Zimbabwean dollars?

I don't get.  USD, of course.

It's amazing how hostile this board is to anyone who wants to retire on more than $750k. Piob, I suggest you check out the forums at www.early-retirement.org or www.bogleheads.com as they are a lot less judgemental.

Yeah, that's always been an interesting back forth on this board.  For ERE I'd expect it.  For MMM it seems like if one's gonna make that $6M quickly (say they net $600k/year and save half and retire before 40), as opposed to working 40 years for it, they fit in.  I'm sure the value wrapped up in MMM's house alone would get him ridiculed on some boards.

[ol1970]

OK you want to hear ridiculous and spendy?  My goal USED to be enough to support a $250k year burn at a 3% withdraw rate with a paid for house/cars.  Hey you asked...so north of $8M.  I've never spent $250k a year in my life, but that is what I was planning for?!?!  What a complete dummy I am...anyway luckily I wised up and I did not work any extra years where I didn't love what I was doing.  2 years into FIRE I find that I live what to me is extremely lavish on about $80k year.  Looks like I'll be donating a $%#t ton to charity, but I still wouldn't change a thing of how I got here, the journey is the fun part even if we make mistakes along the way.  My advice for people though is you need way less than you think, but start early!

[Retire-Canada]

Yeah, that's always been an interesting back forth on this board.  For ERE I'd expect it.  For MMM it seems like if one's gonna make that $6M quickly (say they net $600k/year and save half and retire before 40), as opposed to working 40 years for it, they fit in.  I'm sure the value wrapped up in MMM's house alone would get him ridiculed on some boards.

ERE - spending sub-$25K/yr all in
MMM - spending sub-$50K/yr all in
$6M @ 4% = $240K/yr spending. I don't think that fits right in with the MMM forum.

[PiobStache]

Are you sure that $6 million USD is going to be enough?

He/she is saving up to pay for the Republican-imposed health care "reform."

Sorry if my correction of your assertion in the post-ACA thread ruffled your feathers.

[PiobStache]

It's amazing how hostile this board is to anyone who wants to retire on more than $750k. Piob, I suggest you check out the forums at www.early-retirement.org or www.bogleheads.com as they are a lot less judgemental.

Thank you for this suggestion and I will check them out today.  I guess I didn't understand this forum had income limits.  I just read someone talking about a new doctor friend taking a 600k job, but not being wise with her new salary.  I guess high earners are only good for bad examples?

[tarheeldan]

It's amazing how hostile this board is to anyone who wants to retire on more than $750k. Piob, I suggest you check out the forums at www.early-retirement.org or www.bogleheads.com as they are a lot less judgemental.

Thank you for this suggestion and I will check them out today.  I guess I didn't understand this forum had income limits.  I just read someone talking about a new doctor friend taking a 600k job, but not being wise with her new salary.  I guess high earners are only good for bad examples?

It's not the income that's objectionable to the MMM philosophy. It's the spending.

[PiobStache]

It's not the income that's objectionable to the MMM philosophy. It's the spending.

Oh.  What's the approved limit on that?  Serious question.

[Cookie78]

At $200k CAD (enough padding to not worry about selling the houses right away) I'd walk away today.

Thank you for this suggestion and I will check them out today.  I guess I didn't understand this forum had income limits.  I just read someone talking about a new doctor friend taking a 600k job, but not being wise with her new salary.  I guess high earners are only good for bad examples?

Welcome to the forum Piobstache. Don't worry about the haters. You do you. I like variety (goals, plans, spending, earning, whatever) in the forums and hope you'll stay. :) 

If I had that kind of income I may have the same FIRE number as you, just because I think of all the extra good in the world I could do with a little extra funding. :)

[undercover]

It's not the income that's objectionable to the MMM philosophy. It's the spending.

Oh.  What's the approved limit on that?  Serious question.

$25k/yr for family of 3. Duh. Says it is in the bible (blog). Everyone in this church (forum) knows that!

[Retire-Canada]

$25k/yr for family of 3. Duh. Says it is in the bible (blog). Everyone in this church (forum) knows that!

MMM has a paid off house so that's an all in spending of ~$40K-$50K/yr depending on the housing/rental market where you live.

[PiobStache]

Cookie, thank you for the kind words.  Doing good in the world is part of our plan.  I grew up in extreme poverty in a rural setting and my wife and I have a business plan to start a non-profit that will work with rural youth (as they seem often forgotten) to prepare them for STEM type careers.  She's an engineer, and I also have a quantitative background, so we've been active already in helping disadvantaged kids become more proficient in math with the Math Counts organization. 

I also plan to never return to the state of poverty.

At $200k CAD (enough padding to not worry about selling the houses right away) I'd walk away today.

Thank you for this suggestion and I will check them out today.  I guess I didn't understand this forum had income limits.  I just read someone talking about a new doctor friend taking a 600k job, but not being wise with her new salary.  I guess high earners are only good for bad examples?

Welcome to the forum Piobstache. Don't worry about the haters. You do you. I like variety (goals, plans, spending, earning, whatever) in the forums and hope you'll stay. :) 

If I had that kind of income I may have the same FIRE number as you, just because I think of all the extra good in the world I could do with a little extra funding. :)

[Cookie78]

Cookie, thank you for the kind words.  Doing good in the world is part of our plan.  I grew up in extreme poverty in a rural setting and my wife and I have a business plan to start a non-profit that will work with rural youth (as they seem often forgotten) to prepare them for STEM type careers.  She's an engineer, and I also have a quantitative background, so we've been active already in helping disadvantaged kids become more proficient in math with the Math Counts organization. 

I also plan to never return to the state of poverty.

At $200k CAD (enough padding to not worry about selling the houses right away) I'd walk away today.

Thank you for this suggestion and I will check them out today.  I guess I didn't understand this forum had income limits.  I just read someone talking about a new doctor friend taking a 600k job, but not being wise with her new salary.  I guess high earners are only good for bad examples?

Welcome to the forum Piobstache. Don't worry about the haters. You do you. I like variety (goals, plans, spending, earning, whatever) in the forums and hope you'll stay. :) 

If I had that kind of income I may have the same FIRE number as you, just because I think of all the extra good in the world I could do with a little extra funding. :)

That's really awesome! I wish you and your wife the best of luck. :)

[undercover]

$25k/yr for family of 3. Duh. Says it is in the bible (blog). Everyone in this church (forum) knows that!

MMM has a paid off house so that's an all in spending of ~$40K-$50K/yr depending on the housing/rental market where you live.

I know...I'm joking about how religious/cultish these forums can get. It's funny how earlier you divided up the various ER forums into different denominations. It's like we worship ER but go about it different ways, much like a Baptist or Catholic would.

[limeandpepper]

It's amazing how hostile this board is to anyone who wants to retire on more than $750k.

It's also amazing how dismissive you are to anyone who wants to retire on $750k or less.

If people should be more understanding on those who want to retire on more, maybe you can also do the same for those who are happy to retire on less?

You're 23, and you have a SO and a kid, and your household is "retired" on less than $1M in the US? How is that sustainable?

In the US, I don't see how $750k could cover a 30 year old with a wife and child.

A 30 year old in the US that thinks $750k is going to last +50 years is fooling themselves.

[tarheeldan]

$25k/yr for family of 3. Duh. Says it is in the bible (blog). Everyone in this church (forum) knows that!

MMM has a paid off house so that's an all in spending of ~$40K-$50K/yr depending on the housing/rental market where you live.

I know...I'm joking about how religious/cultish these forums can get. It's funny how earlier you divided up the various ER forums into different denominations. It's like we worship ER but go about it different ways, much like a Baptist or Catholic would.

Funny, but there *is* a reason there are different forums. I don't go to a car forum to talk about cats and then think they're cultish because they only want to talk about stupid cars.

Anyway, the guy who's house we're in wrote these things:

(ETA: PiobStache I think this one is the best at answering your question on spending - it's not the ceiling we're after, it's the floor!:) http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/04/14/how-to-make-money-buy-happiness/

And some more:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/what-is-hedonic-adaptation-and-how-can-it-turn-you-into-a-sukka/

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/03/07/frugality-the-new-fanciness/

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/29/luxury-is-just-another-weakness/

[PiobStache]

(ETA: PiobStache I think this one is the best at answering your question on spending - it's not the ceiling we're after, it's the floor!:) http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/04/14/how-to-make-money-buy-happiness/

Tar, thanks for the links. 

ETA:

Observation.  Here's a quote from the link on happiness and hedonic adaptation:

In no particular order, the biggest factors influencing human happiness include meaningful work (with lots of autonomy, low stress, and low fear of losing your job), private life, community, health, freedom, and a philosophy of life.

Pretty simple isn’t it? And you will note that the Way of the Money Mustache addresses all of these areas.

Because work is such an important part of human happiness, as a Mustachian you will work as quickly as possible to take the money component out of it, so that you can have the option of deciding like a real Adult what kind of work you want to do each day.

Interesting words about work being part of happiness and then to juxtapose that against all the threads I've read here this week on people that hate their jobs, fantasize about things like lighting a boss's car on fire, etc.  I guess if one is already in a job one finds meaningful, a job that happens to pay very well, then that's a leg up on being happy.

[undercover]

Funny, but there *is* a reason there are different forums. I don't go to a car forum to talk about cats and then think they're cultish because they only want to talk about stupid cars.

The subject matter on this forum doesn't vary nearly to that extreme, so I'd call that a pretty poor analogy.

Yes, extremely high income ($500k+/yr) individuals are rare and are definitely the minorities here, but it's the judgmental tone towards them that really bugs me. Obviously they could spend much more than you but still retire in the same amount of time, but that doesn't seem to matter. The sad thing is that the people who react so strongly are just doing so as a defense mechanism. They're being challenged on their assumptions of what is true.

Does the world really need a place that they can come together and hold hands and rejoice that they didn't buy a certain amount of items? I don't think so. It's like moving to a place for political reasons: it's stupid to always surround yourself around people who will always agree with you.

[tarheeldan]

The subject matter on this forum doesn't vary nearly to that extreme, so I'd call that a pretty poor analogy.

You can't dismiss the analogy for being "too strong." The point of the analogy still stands.

Yes, extremely high income ($500k+/yr) individuals are rare and are definitely the minorities here, but it's the judgmental tone towards them that really bugs me.

Again, it's not the income. It's the spending.

Does the world really need a place that they can come together and hold hands and rejoice that they didn't buy a certain amount of items? I don't think so. It's like moving to a place for political reasons: it's stupid to always surround yourself around people who will always agree with you.

That's why groups and clubs exist. A common interest.

[Cookie78]

Funny, but there *is* a reason there are different forums. I don't go to a car forum to talk about cats and then think they're cultish because they only want to talk about stupid cars.

The subject matter on this forum doesn't vary nearly to that extreme, so I'd call that a pretty poor analogy.

Yes, extremely high income ($500k+/yr) individuals are rare and are definitely the minorities here, but it's the judgmental tone towards them that really bugs me. Obviously they could spend much more than you but still retire in the same amount of time, but that doesn't seem to matter. The sad thing is that the people who react so strongly are just doing so as a defense mechanism. They're being challenged on their assumptions of what is true.

Does the world really need a place that they can come together and hold hands and rejoice that they didn't buy a certain amount of items? I don't think so. It's like moving to a place for political reasons: it's stupid to always surround yourself around people who will always agree with you.

Agreed.

I think the forum would get pretty boring pretty quick if everyone agreed.

The car forum analogy works much better if instead of cats, you go on the forum to talk about your high end car. Yes, most people are talking about their cheaper cars, but some people might still want to hear about your experiences with a different car.... even if it's not something within their reach, or even something they desire for themselves. 

[soupcxan]

It's amazing how hostile this board is to anyone who wants to retire on more than $750k.

It's also amazing how dismissive you are to anyone who wants to retire on $750k or less.

If people should be more understanding on those who want to retire on more, maybe you can also do the same for those who are happy to retire on less?

You're 23, and you have a SO and a kid, and your household is "retired" on less than $1M in the US? How is that sustainable?

In the US, I don't see how $750k could cover a 30 year old with a wife and child.

A 30 year old in the US that thinks $750k is going to last +50 years is fooling themselves.

Sorry but it's still not realistic for a 30-something family to fully retire on $750k in the US, especially now that the ACA is likely to be changed in the next 4 years.
Thinking that something is unrealistic is different than mocking someone for the choices they make.

[Mmm_Donuts]

Interesting words about work being part of happiness and then to juxtapose that against all the threads I've read here this week on people that hate their jobs, fantasize about things like lighting a boss's car on fire, etc.  I guess if one is already in a job one finds meaningful, a job that happens to pay very well, then that's a leg up on being happy.

It's been my experience that high income jobs are stressful, and the work I want to do doesn't pay well. It does seem to be a common belief here on this forum that high income = stress and misery, and that only low income work can be meaningful. I, for one, welcome anyone who can challenge this paradigm.

As for the question in the OP - if I had $700k land on my lap then I could feel comfortable never earning money again. We could achieve this now by downsizing our home, but it's not in the cards for us yet.

[PiobStache]

So if it's not about the income but rather about the spending...all I did to trigger all this was answer the question in the OP.  I didn't state how much per year I plan to spend on my living expenses, no, people just reacted to my personal FIRE number.

/shrug

[tarheeldan]

So if it's not about the income but rather about the spending...all I did to trigger all this was answer the question in the OP.  I didn't state how much per year I plan to spend on my living expenses, no, people just reacted to my personal FIRE number.

/shrug

so there's no positive correlation between the FIRE number and the spending? The point of the FIRE number *is* that it's sufficient to fund the spending.

[PiobStache]

That's why groups and clubs exist. A common interest.

I thought the common interest here was FIRE? 

[tarheeldan]

That's why groups and clubs exist. A common interest.

I thought the common interest here was FIRE?

It's the MMM forum. So yes, but only partly.

[PiobStache]

so there's no positive correlation between the FIRE number and the spending? The point of the FIRE number *is* that it's sufficient to fund the spending.

Spending != spending to maintain one's lifestyle.  For instance, as I already shared above, part of what I plan to do with my nest egg is to start a non-profit to help disadvantaged rural youth.  This is wrong somehow?  Or you feel this spending doesn't need to be part of my persona FIRE plan so is therefore "wasteful?"

Getting more puzzled.

[monstermonster]

Oh man, I don't really want to retire because I just started my own business! My FI number is 280,000 and I'm only 10% of the way there, but I *like* working too much to want to retire. But I'd take the investment in my business!

[tarheeldan]

For instance, as I already shared above, part of what I plan to do with my nest egg is to start a non-profit to help disadvantaged rural youth.  This is wrong somehow? 

No, I don't think anyone objects that. I certainly don't. I'm sure you can see how that's just not something that's widely assumed to be part of one's FIRE number.

[PiobStache]

For instance, as I already shared above, part of what I plan to do with my nest egg is to start a non-profit to help disadvantaged rural youth.  This is wrong somehow? 

No, I don't think anyone objects that. I certainly don't. I'm sure you can see how that's just not something that's widely assumed to be part of one's FIRE number.

That's interesting as this is exactly the type of thing Mr. Mustache talked about in the links you sent me and was said specifically to be a key part of happiness.

[Mmm_Donuts]

For instance, as I already shared above, part of what I plan to do with my nest egg is to start a non-profit to help disadvantaged rural youth.  This is wrong somehow? 

No, I don't think anyone objects that. I certainly don't. I'm sure you can see how that's just not something that's widely assumed to be part of one's FIRE number.

That's interesting as this is exactly the type of thing Mr. Mustache talked about in the links you sent me and was said specifically to be a key part of happiness.

Meaningful work doesn't typically take millions of dollars to fund. MMM's point is that more money != more happiness. As I think you can see from the forums, most people in high earning positions are not necessarily fulfilled by their jobs. Don't be put off by people's inability to comprehend what you are doing, because what you are doing is very unusual and may require more explanation.

[PiobStache]

Meaningful work doesn't typically take millions of dollars to fund. MMM's point is that more money != more happiness. As I think you can see from the forums, most people in high earning positions are not necessarily fulfilled by their jobs. Don't be put off by people's inability to comprehend what you are doing, because what you are doing is very unusual and may require more explanation.

Love your screen name!

Thanks for the comments.  I totally agree it doesn't take millions to do meaningful work, and through my planning, other folks will be able to do meaningful work at the non-profit I plan to start.  So sort of great/even better on my end as I will also have the opportunity to provide some meaningful chances of employment for others.

As to jobs and fulfillment...seems like fulfillment is in might low supply around here no matter how much one earns given all the threads dedicated to job hating.  Seems to me if I had a choice between being unfulfilled and modestly paid, or unfulfilled and highly paid, there's little thought needed for that choice!  I guess I'm lucky in that my current job is meaningful, fulfilling, and the compensation is dandy too.  As we've been talking about happiness I think another component to that is realizing when you've built a life that is blessed.

[joonifloofeefloo]

I was intrigued to read the "only enough for health care" responses. I understand it, even given I'm in Canada such that a shortlist of care for me and me kid is free. I'm hanging on to, and building, my stash primarily for health costs.

[CashInWhealth]

Even if I got the number in my head, I would be mentally prepared and would probably work for another few months while sorting things out.  You know, things like the draw-down plan which isn't really defined yet for me since its still pretty far away.  I have mega back door Roth plans that would need to be sorted and dividends and what not.

[Valhalla]

I'd need about $8.31, enough to cover my lunch today. :)

[Valhalla]

I was intrigued to read the "only enough for health care" responses. I understand it, even given I'm in Canada such that a shortlist of care for me and me kid is free. I'm hanging on to, and building, my stash primarily for health costs.

Yup, that's pretty much me also.

[kimmarg]

Lucky co-worker! I've been in the lottery pool at work for over 10 years. I'm about $1k in the hole. To much investment at this point to bow out though.

Economists have a name for this. It's called the "sunk cost fallacy". The time to bow out is now. Your odds are not improving due to the length of time you have been involved.

[Monkey Uncle]

Are you sure that $6 million USD is going to be enough?

He/she is saving up to pay for the Republican-imposed health care "reform."

Sorry if my correction of your assertion in the post-ACA thread ruffled your feathers.

Don't worry, you didn't hurt my feelings.  But I do find it amusing that you think you "corrected" me.