Author Topic: How much more do kids cost?  (Read 152354 times)

chschen

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 19
How much more do kids cost?
« on: March 15, 2012, 09:56:08 PM »
I know this really depends on many different factors, but I was just wondering, for any parents in the forum, how much extra you think you spend (per child). I've created this retirement calculator and one of the inputs is the annual cost of raising a child, and since I don't have children it's hard for me to budget how much they would cost per year. I've looked at data for average spending in the U.S., but I think I can probably spend less than most. What I don't know is, how much less? I figured these forums would be a good start to gauging that cost since I know you all probably do better than the national average! If you're game for answering this question, I'm interested in having extra rent/housing costs, car/transportation costs included as well. Thanks in advance for your help!

(I did a quick search in the forum to see if this question had been asked but didn't find anything. If it has been asked, I apologize and would appreciate it if someone could point me to the thread.)

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28444
  • Age: -997
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2012, 10:13:25 PM »
Great question.  I was thinking about this the other day and was going to start a thread on it, and then forgot.

The wife and I are currently putting off having kids for another year or two.  Like you, I have also looked at average spending and tried to guess what ours will be like.

I did ask MMM about this topic in an email about six months ago, and here was his reply (I'm sure he won't mind me sharing):
Quote
In one sentence, I'd say being a parent costs a frugal person about $300 per month in actual outlays. Kids are cheap - they eat very little, the clothes and toys are mostly free from other people, so the only expenses are really just health-related and miscellaneous things you need for them and can't get from other people. Childcare costs whatever you decide to spend on it - zero if you keep the child at home, up to $1200+/month if you do full-time daycare.

The time costs are much more variable. For me, it took almost ALL my time for the first few years, since I wouldn't want to have a full-time job and be a parent at the same time - just part of my own unusual values, though, since many other people do it and their kids turn out just fine.

Did you see this old MMM article on the subject of kid costs? I admit it is a bit fluffy and emotional too but there might still be some value for you in there: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/26/what-is-the-real-cost-of-raising-children/

I was still thinking about starting a topic to get the thoughts of all the Mustachian parents on these forums, so I'm glad you did.. if they're willing to share their numbers, maybe we can work an "average" per kid for a Mustachian family.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

mmmsc

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Location: Sidney BC Canada
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2012, 11:12:53 PM »
Little kids are cheap. Big ones not so much. As a parent of five teenage boys I can tell you that they would eat 300 hundred dollars a month in food given half a chance. As with all things it varies with the child. Sports can be a big drain. I have one who played a high level of ice hockey that cost 3000-4000 per season( try that times 5). Clothes are not a big deal for me (used or they buy their own as they all have jobs :)). We were a one income family for many years during the kids younger years which pushed retirement out for a few years, but I am glad we were able to have at least one of us home during their formative years.

kolorado

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 368
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2012, 06:14:42 AM »
We spend about $150 a month each for our three kids(9, 7 and 18 months). That's food, higher utilities, transportation, medical care, clothes, allowances, gifts and repairing/replacing the things they break. We spend an additional $100 a month on the school aged kids for homeschool materials and experiences. Medical insurance is an additional $75 a month per child. So we're in the $300 range too.
BUT since we're fairly low income, having children bumps our taxable income down to nothing plus we are given a credit back. So our real cost to raise children is much lower than the $10K or so a year I listed here.
I don't anticipate that the kids will be much more expensive when they get older. Food and utilities yes. But I plan to have them help in our family's frugal efforts to offset the increases. For instance, I didn't get enrolled in programs as a teen, I taught myself to sew and bake instead thus saving my family money on clothes and groceries. I also helped my mother shop and would find the best values off the list for our family.
I was never a fan of sports and programs when I was growing up and as a parent I see little life value for my children other than some fun. My husband was in many sports and programs growing up. The programs met his social desires but did little for his actual character or future abilities. I'm not even going to run down a list of everything he couldn't do when we were married but it was staggering. His parents had him in so much stuff and never took the time to teach him anything of real value. He didn't even know the amount of everyday stuff he didn't know.
Money spent on children, other than basic needs for health and safety, should primarily be an investment. I think many parents focus too much on their children being happy and liked by their peers instead of what skills will be of most use to them in actual adult life. Certainly parents can reach a balance of meeting the social and life skills needs of their children but it is hard to compel kids, especially teens, to do the learning when there's playing available.
I really think classes, sports and programs for kids are basically babysitting for 90% of the kids enrolled. Maybe 10% of the kids will really connect with the teacher, coach or mentor and turn the experience into building their character and outlook on life. That 10% will learn skills that will help them in their adult life. As a parent, it's going to be hard to part me from hard earned income over only a 10% chance that my kids will have lasting positive impact from an experience. Pretty much any program you would pay to enroll a child in, they can also experience at the 75% off to free range with more parental involvement, slight alterations to the desired activity(such as street hockey instead of ice),co-ops and volunteer opportunities.
Pretty much anything that my kids can experience at cost in childhood can also be experienced as an adult and and on their own dime. I'm not advocated being a heartless cheapskate, just being a parent who is always teaching and who gets their kids to understand that learning is fun and never ends. There is no "time limit" to enjoying group sports, dance lessons, working on a small paper or music training. I took tap and Latin dance lessons and volunteered in a women's support group and a conservation group in my 20's.  My husband voluntarily heads the safety committee at work and competes in disc golf tournaments on weekends. We can both tell you that we enjoy those things more now than we would have as kids because the parental pressure is absent. Being responsible for our own learning and hard work and enjoying the benefits of it is very gratifying. We don't do things with any hope that it will be a building block to our career or our big break into the big time like we would have as teens. We have no one to disappoint but ourselves and that colors the experiences in such a different way.

velocistar237

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1424
  • Location: Metro Boston
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2012, 09:24:08 AM »
I haven't seen many examples of early retired people with teenage kids, so I'm interested in hearing more of those. For teenagers, if you don't give them a car, and you keep their activities local, focused, and low-cost, then it seems like you can still keep expenses down. Are there many frugal activities for high-schoolers? I suspect that a lot of activities exist because they generate income for someone else, so I wonder if frugal activities that can provide a social outlet are scarce. I'd be interested in making a list so that my kids can have a choice when the time comes. The other option is to let them do whatever they want as long as they can pay for it themselves without hurting their schoolwork.

kolorado

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 368
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2012, 11:17:47 AM »
Libraries and non-profit groups always have tons of educational and fun group activities going on. I took a 10 week photography class for free with a fun group of people at our local library. There is so much available free to teens now that it's ludicrous to actually pay for anything. Grants all over the place paying for teen enrichment/crime prevention. Volunteering is also completely free. In the conservation group I was in, we did work days and special event hosting. By volunteering, I got access to people, places and services that usually require several hundred dollars in donations to access. In one particular area we worked the general public was not permitted due to wildlife concerns but as a work day volunteer I was able to enjoy the beautiful and pristine area, take pictures, journal, etc. as well as do the job we came to do. This is true across many fields and services. A local theater here puts on plays with amateurs 4X a year. It's free to try out for parts and free to work behind the scenes. My brother volunteered with an old schooner ship restoration when he was a teen. He rode his bike the 12 miles there and back every day. Carpentry and history with some neat old characters in that experience! Running 5K's is a big thing around here. There are races every other weekend all summer within decent driving distances. Entry fees are usually around $20 for charity but runners can participate unnumbered for free.  I've done a couple myself and it's a blast. If I had some friends to train with it would be even better. ;)
Basically if we are training our kids from a young age to listen to their own thoughts and not to just blindly follow with the herd, they will probably decline herd activities for things more in their line of interest. And we parents probably won't have to do much to look those things up for them.

HeidiO

  • Guest
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2012, 01:27:55 PM »
Kids cost as much money as you have to spend on them.  I would estimate I spend around $1000 a month on my son, but that is because I have that much to spend on him.  In that I am including a few hundred in food (he's 6'1" and growing) gas to drive him around (he goes to a charter school that doesn't have bus service,) clothes (I buy him clothes about 3x a year,) sports activities (I think they are good for him and his ADHD.  Also, they give him a chance to be good at something, which is very important for a kid who is not good at school.)  Shoes should count as their own category!  Skateboarding destroys shoes.  Also gifts, he gets a good haul at Christmas, birthday, and gotcha day.  We also buy gifts for some of his friends.
  The thing with kids, is that spending on them is fun.  Often more fun than spending on yourself.  You have to pay for them to join a soccer team, but then you get to see how stinkin' cute they are out there in their uniforms. 
  One thing we have found is that it is nice for him to go to a school where he is in the middle to the higher end of the economic spectrum - not the "best" school where he is on the bottom.  We don't spend all that much on his clothes, but there is no, "I need this brand. "  We volunteer for his sports teams and at his school. We pay for 1 or 2 "scholarships" so other kids can play soccer who can't afford it.  We even, gasp, take his friends through McDonalds sometimes on our way home.
   We could be more frugal about these things, of course.  But that is the point, if we only had $300 / month that's what we would spend on him.  What you spend on your kid is similar to what you spend on yourself.  I also indulge in educational and recreational activities that cost money.
Heidi
 

Ben

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 123
  • Location: SC
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2012, 02:39:35 PM »
Kolorado,

Love both of your posts and I am very encouraged to learn from your outlook on life and raising your kids.

Not to get too far off topic, but 'you can run unregistered in a 5k for free' is kind of like saying 'you can ride a train/plane/bus without buying a ticket,' all you have to do is not pay the person/organization responsible for making it happen and get on/off without getting in trouble.

kolorado

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 368
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2012, 04:58:44 PM »
Thank you for the compliment Ben. :)
Every charity run I've been too(my SIL runs also) has invited people to run unregistered to show support for the cause even without a monetary donation. The entrance fee qualifies runners for prizes. Unregistered runners will not be able to collect a prize even if they come in first. I don't feel like I'm taking advantage of anyone's time when there is an invitation to do this. Freeloading is definitely not something I'm teaching my kids or advocating. ;)

zoltani

  • Guest
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2012, 05:11:53 PM »
Kids cost as much money as you have to spend on them.  I would estimate I spend around $1000 a month on my son, but that is because I have that much to spend on him.  In that I am including a few hundred in food (he's 6'1" and growing) gas to drive him around (he goes to a charter school that doesn't have bus service,) clothes (I buy him clothes about 3x a year,) sports activities (I think they are good for him and his ADHD.  Also, they give him a chance to be good at something, which is very important for a kid who is not good at school.)  Shoes should count as their own category!  Skateboarding destroys shoes.  Also gifts, he gets a good haul at Christmas, birthday, and gotcha day.  We also buy gifts for some of his friends.
  The thing with kids, is that spending on them is fun.  Often more fun than spending on yourself.  You have to pay for them to join a soccer team, but then you get to see how stinkin' cute they are out there in their uniforms. 
  One thing we have found is that it is nice for him to go to a school where he is in the middle to the higher end of the economic spectrum - not the "best" school where he is on the bottom.  We don't spend all that much on his clothes, but there is no, "I need this brand. "  We volunteer for his sports teams and at his school. We pay for 1 or 2 "scholarships" so other kids can play soccer who can't afford it.  We even, gasp, take his friends through McDonalds sometimes on our way home.
   We could be more frugal about these things, of course.  But that is the point, if we only had $300 / month that's what we would spend on him.  What you spend on your kid is similar to what you spend on yourself.  I also indulge in educational and recreational activities that cost money.
Heidi

Wow.....that is about what an adult costs per month, lol

Sounds like he is big enough to get a job and contribute to some of his own expenses.

Of course, I am on the ECO (or EIC in this case) chapter of "Millionaire Next Door" so, it is in my mind.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8433
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2012, 05:43:39 PM »
If both partners are already on one spouse's "family plan" health insurance, then adding dependent children usually doesn't cost anything extra.

The real costs of raising children are not just the groceries and clothes they consume.  I think that the biggest expenses are:

1.  College educations, if you choose to provide them, are easily 50k in today's dollars and potentially well over a half million each in 18 years.

2.  The larger house you need to have.   Consider the price differential between a two bedroom and a five bedroom house, mortgage it over 30 years, and divide the total by the four kids that would fill those bedrooms.  Major money.

3.  The minivan you will drive, or the extra cars you will purchase and insure for your teenagers.  A married couple can get along fine with a single compact car.  A family of four usually has at least one fuel-inefficient vehicle and one or two extra cars once the kids are driving age.

4.  The lost income from time spent raising children.  Married couples spend a ton of time raising children, and typically one partner quits working for a while, which is not only lost immediate income but lost future earnings from slowing the career ascension.  Childless couples can choose to travel the world with their surplus income, or run a side hustle to generate more income. 

5.  Coddling activities.  Your child does not need private piano lessons and a gymnastics coach, but most parents choose to spend thousands of dollars on activities they think will enrich their children's lives more than spending time with their parents.

6.  Then come the consumables.  Yes, feeding three teenage boys is expensive.

If you let the kids fend for themselves when it comes to education, share bedrooms with a sibling, learn to bike at an early age, and spend time playing with friends and family instead of expensive professional babysitters, then you can skip most of these costs.  Hell, my grandfather was one of eight boys raised in a single room shack with no running water, and those kids all turned out just fine.  Most of the expense of raising children, like most of the expenses in the rest of our consumerist society, are optional luxuries that we have been taught to believe we cannot live without. 

AJ

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 906
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Oregon
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2012, 06:03:08 PM »
4.  The lost income from time spent raising children.  Married couples spend a ton of time raising children, and typically one partner quits working for a while, which is not only lost immediate income but lost future earnings from slowing the career ascension.  Childless couples can choose to travel the world with their surplus income, or run a side hustle to generate more income. 

This one is huge. I hear a lot of single-income folks saying that kids don't cost much if you don't have to put them in daycare, but they fail to account for their own time. Someone has to watch them at all hours for the first decade or so, and you pay for that one way or another.

5.  Coddling activities.  Your child does not need private piano lessons and a gymnastics coach, but most parents choose to spend thousands of dollars on activities they think will enrich their children's lives more than spending time with their parents.

I'm not really digging the disdain for extra-curricular activities that everyone seems so keen on here. I feel I benefited enormously from the activities my parents allowed me to participate in. You can learn a lot from books, but some things need to be learned by doing. And yes, I do think these things help with social development. I think there are other sacrifices to be made before these things need cut entirely. We never had cable or nice clothes or vacations other than camping, but I knew that I could participate in school functions and try on different "hats" for myself. I think most families have other thing they could cut back on before needing to cut out all extra-curriculars.

zoltani

  • Guest
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2012, 06:05:51 PM »
Sol's right, it is all about choices.

1.  Public in-state school vs private.  Send the kids to a community college for the first two years for the gen ed requirements, then transfer to the university. 

2.  Depends on how many kids I guess, but you can make a smaller house work. 

3.  Who says you need two cars, one a gas guzzler?  I think you could make a single compact care work for a family as well, as long as you don't have a passel of kids.  The kids can work and save and buy their own car if they want, no need to pay for it for them.  I did it, many other kids do it as well...

4.  Agree and disagree, there are plenty of parents that neglect their kids, work long hours, and still climb the ladder.  Of course, i would value more time with the kids over more money.  Again, it comes down to choices.

5.  100% agree

Yes, it is all about the choices you want to make and the level of consumption you "need" to make you and your kids' lives happy.  This level is different for all of us, but in the end you will be setting the example for your kids.  Live the high consumption lifestyle, pay for all of their cars/education/etc and you can bet they won't be as independent or be as able to grow a stache in the future.

zoltani

  • Guest
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2012, 06:08:32 PM »


I'm not really digging the disdain for extra-curricular activities that everyone seems so keen on here. I feel I benefited enormously from the activities my parents allowed me to participate in. You can learn a lot from books, but some things need to be learned by doing. And yes, I do think these things help with social development. I think there are other sacrifices to be made before these things need cut entirely. We never had cable or nice clothes or vacations other than camping, but I knew that I could participate in school functions and try on different "hats" for myself. I think most families have other thing they could cut back on before needing to cut out all extra-curriculars.

As long as it is the kids that truly want to do the activities, fine.  Pushing things on the kids is a different story.  You can learn a lot by doing without the added costs. 

chschen

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 19
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2012, 06:44:21 PM »
Thanks, everyone, for the great replies. I agree that in general parenting style or decisions you make about your children will end up causing this amount to vary a lot. I guess I was just polling to see what some actual numbers are so I could get a better sense of what's a more likely range for my situation. I think everyone providing their context with their numbers is really helpful, so thank you.

A few follow-up questions for kolorado and HeidiO: Do you have a guess for how much extra you end up paying for housing? I wasn't sure if your $1000 included housing, HeidiO. kolorado, you said the $150 per month included medical care but then also added a $75 per month for health insurance. Are the medical expenses included in the $150 for out-of-pocket expenses (e.g. co-pay, whatever else isn't covered by insurance)?

iwannaretire

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 56
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2012, 06:59:04 PM »
I spend about $100 per kid per month on health insurance, but they're high deductible policies, so expect to pay extra in medical and dental expenses.  For instance, a little broken arm (hairline fracture) just cost me about $600. 

With regard to food and utilities, I figure kids add about 50 percent to what you are already paying.  Even when they are in growth spurts, there are ways of keeping the food bill from getting out of control.

Most of the other costs depend on your priorities and your own personal circumstances.  Will you need to pay for daycare?  Can you send them to public school?  (One private school in our area requires Ipads for all kids, even kindergarteners, in addition to exorbitant tuition).  Do you plan to pay for their college?  Can you avoid the birthday party circuit?  Will your child have special needs?  On these questions, everyone's circumstances will differ and so their expenses will be different too.

velocistar237

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1424
  • Location: Metro Boston
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2012, 07:34:49 PM »
We fly across the country once a year. That adds $50/month per child just for that plane ticket.

I'm not really digging the disdain for extra-curricular activities that everyone seems so keen on here.

I don't see the disdain you mention. MMM has already written a post about how you don't have to spend a lot of money on activities. In light of that, I'd like to figure out what activities hit the sweet spot, what would both be really good for my kids and not cost a lot. On the spectrum of activity costs, I obviously want to avoid solo bluewater sailing and competitive horseback riding unless I can somehow make it work with our limited budget.

HeidiO

  • Guest
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2012, 08:20:46 PM »
[Wow.....that is about what an adult costs per month, lol

Sounds like he is big enough to get a job and contribute to some of his own expenses.

Of course, I am on the ECO (or EIC in this case) chapter of "Millionaire Next Door" so, it is in my mind.
[/quote]

Well yes, that is about what an adult costs per month.  Why would a teenager cost less than an adult?  They could, if that was your goal, but it's not my goal.  Obviously I could spend less on him - which is the point I guess.  It's all about what you think is appropriate or life-enriching.  As far as housing - we definitely spend more on housing because we have him and our foster daughter.  We are planning to move into an RV after they move out.  (Athough we may decide to use owner-occupied financing for our next rental.) 
He has applied for a couple jobs.  Not all that easy to get right now. but if he were really motivated he could probably find something.  But it isn't really all that important to me.  He is an immature kid.  (He was homeless, in and out of foster care until we adopted him when he was 9.)  If he gets 2 more years of carefree play with his only responsibilty school, behaving well, and doing a couple of chores, cool.  He'll grow up eventually, and will probably work for 50 years.
I think there are a lot of good ways to raise children.  For instance, I didn't pay for my college.  My parents did, plus my rent.  I turned into a fine, hard working, reasonably frugal sort.  I know this is heresy in some frugal circles, but it makes sense to me.  They spent less money on me than I do on my kid, but I have more money (as an adult) than they did.

mmmsc

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Location: Sidney BC Canada
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2012, 11:32:16 PM »
My current state.

Married 5 teenage sons 13,13,15,18,and 19. Two in college three in public high school.

Expenses re:children

Food and sundries: 1450.00/month  est:250/month for me and spouse  ..1200/5= 240 per month each, do not forget that all household items get used faster. (more soap, more toilet paper, more...etc)

Clothes: I budget for 100/month = 14.28each  ...  shoes are the killer here. We all wear clothes from thrift stores. If the kids want something special they will have to finance it themselves

College: We put 20/month per child away(only three now). All of them have known since they were little that they were going  to have to save for their own education. These funds are only to help get them established in their first year as they adjust to their new realities.

Larger House; Much harder to estimate... bigger mortgage,bigger water bill, bigger electric bill, bigger gas bill,more light bulbs,more paint, more beds, more linen ...etc

Bigger car: This is a expense that is greater when they are younger. Pretty hard to tell the youngest he can not go to Grandmas because there is no room. We were able to down size as they got older and were able to get there by themselves.

Lost income: Yep (but it was by choice)

Coddling activities: Here I must disagree with some of the previous posts. People by nature all enjoy and have different needs. I believe that are job as parents is not only to teach but to nurture their talents and interests. Do most need or want private piano lessons, Probably not. There are however a few who benefit enormously. Do parents sign there children up for sports and then open the car door and promptly leave. Yep. Most of these kids really do not want to be there, but there is a percentage that find themselves. As I noted earlier one of my sons expressed a keen interest in ice hockey. We encouraged and supported (financially and emotionally) him as he grew physically and emotionally into a young man. I do not believe he would be the person he is today without that experience. That is his way of growing. I have two other sons who have never played an organized team sport and they too are growing and learning to be young adults. Was the hockey expensive? Yes. Was it worth it? For that child yes. Art or music or riding his bike were never going to be able to replicate what he got out of playing a team sport. This does not mean every child will, just that he did. Personally I coach high school football, and have for 12 years, and yet not one of my boys has ever played or ever expressed an interest. Every year I see some shy unsure kid come into camp and leave a changed kid. I of course see way more come in because dad wanted him to or his friends joined. They never get more out of it then a little fun (and lots of pushups :)  ). This of course does not detract from the benefits that some do get. For some it will be art or music or books or solo physical activities. Optional? Yeah sorta... but not for me.

 To clarify. All my kids are able to cook a full family meal (and are expected too). All ride bikes and do the basic maintenance. All have jobs from paper routes to part time pay my way through school jobs. All help tend the garden. All have hobbies. They are all different. They all have different needs( not talking Nike's here).

Enough rant costs now 55/month music and lacrosse

All in all they are worth every penny

kolorado

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 368
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2012, 11:34:43 AM »
In reply to chschen: $150 a month included just out-of-pocket medical expenses. I didn't list it in my above post but I also included furniture needs in my amount. Kids are hard on furniture but it's easy and cheap to replace things with used items on local swap groups.
We did not "need" a minivan until we hit child #3 and I did not add that to my figure but I should have. Our in-laws gave us a van and it gets less than $30 a month in gas driving the kids places. Insurance, maintenance and registration cost another $100 a month. Since we'd be a one car family with a sedan had it not been for child #3, I can put that $100 extra a month on her. :P
I also did not include housing in terms of mortgage in my figure because we'd have lived here( http://www.coldwellbanker.com/property?propertyId=251265570&mode=detail&brandType=CB ) with just two people or with the family we currently have. I did include the increased utilities. We were planning to convert some of the unused attic into a sleeping loft for our oldest if we were to stay in this house longer(2br, 1bth). Increased housing costs is a tricky budget area to discuss. Even childless people usually have excess square footage they could convert to space for children because most houses have at least 2 bedrooms or other convertible rooms. Also, 800 square foot homes and 1600 square foot homes can sell for similar amounts with similar mortgages. There are too many variables to realistically figure what "additional housing costs" could be. In our case, the attic transformation would have cost about $4K or less than $50 a month for the remainder of time our oldest lived with us. Making space for children can be done in small spaces with very little expense. Buying a larger house isn't usually necessary if you can think outside the box a bit. Much of what we think they "need" is really just what we want.
I didn't think this question was about the full cost and financial impact of raising children, just the month to month expense aspect so I didn't factor in anything like lost income since I'm the home parent. If I had worked all the time I've been home raising my kids(10 years), I would have collected about $250K in income. $110K would be lost in taxes and lost child tax credits, $50K would be lost in transportation and work related expenses, and another $25K lost to less time/energy to engage in money saving activities. So I've given up about $550 in cash every month I've stayed home to raise my children. And I'd never actually ran the numbers on that before! :D
So if you really wanted to include that in my estimates:
Child #1 : $325 a month
Child #2, different gender, with our current small house that would need an attic conversion: $375 month
Child #3, can share room with child #2: $325 a month until school aged, then $425 thereafter
=$1025 in actual expenses
=$550 in lost income
=$1575 a month in financial impact

TheDude

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 467
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2012, 08:51:37 PM »
I love this thread it seems like expenses can really range based on what you want to spend. For us daycare is expensive since we both work (but that is clearly a choice). The other large expense for us has been health care. My son was born two months early so he had a lot of expense in the first two months. Luckily my wife insurance is awesome. The downside is that a family plan at her work is 373 a month. I actually looked into switching him but a plan not even as close to as good was $540 for a kid under one. The other one that writes child only policies in CO was even higher. Once July hits I should be able to lower this to the 150-200 range.

Compared to those cost everything else seems incidental. We do use disposal diapers. We tried cloth but with both of us working we gave up when he started solids. My wife breastfed but I am not sure its any cheaper! I think she at about an extra 1000 calories a day. Formula is crazy expensive and not as good for the kid. Food for a 1year old is pretty cheap if you don't buy pre-made junk. He eats everything we do plus some so its been pretty easy to feed him. All clothes, furniture, toys and other incidentals were bought at garage sales, second hand stores/sales, craigslit or given to us.

So kids can be cheap if someone stays but in my opinion not even that expensive with us both working.

velocistar237

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1424
  • Location: Metro Boston
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2012, 06:36:25 AM »
So kids can be cheap if someone stays but in my opinion not even that expensive with us both working.

Some friends of mine mentioned that it cost them $2500/month for daycare for their two kids. That's equivalent to $40K pretax. Both of them had higher salaries than that, but not by much. Either through daycare or lost wages/experience, kids are expensive. Only if one parent is unemployable does it really not make a financial difference. I have difficulty coming to terms with this from time to time.

twinge

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 326
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2012, 06:49:03 PM »
For 2 kids, 3 and 11
Daycare, which we use from age 2.5-5 is 1000/mo.
Health insurance additional 150/mo
Life insurance (covering us, not the kids!) 30/mo
Out of pocket medical costs: 50/mo (co-pays etc.). ( This does not include expenses for birth.  Our insurance covered all but $800 of that, but YMMV).   
Music fees 50/mo
Clothes--20/mo --mostly hand-me-downs and gifts, but occasionally need new boots, mittens, random items.
Food: about 100/mo more
Car: We didn't get an extra or bigger car but do have to make more trips that used to be done on bike. haven't quantified.
Gifts/toys/treats etc. 15/mo (this is mainly the monthly cost of birthdays/xmas--we really don't spend much as others lavish things on them)
House:  We probably wouldn't have bought our house if we didn't have kids, wouldn't have worried about school district, etc.  Not that we bought in the best, but we did avoid the dangerous.
Lost income: Birth to 2.5  about 4K month
Probably lots of stuff I'm not thinking of.

I notice in myself a strong tendency to think I don't spend that much on my kids because they don't DO all the things, and we don't buy them much (especially compared to surrounding families) but when I add it up it's more than I initially think...  There are substantial tax credits though, and we end up spending a lot less money going out and entertaining...

« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 07:55:50 AM by twinge »

AJ

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 906
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Oregon
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2012, 11:04:05 AM »
I notice in myself a strong tendency to think I don't spend that much on my kids because they don't DO all the things, and we don't buy them much (especially compared to surrounding families) but when I add it up it's more than I initially think...

I think parents tend to go one way or the other. I hear either, "Kids are so expensive they'll eat you out of house and home. I have it so rough..." or "Kids don't cost anything unless you're a stupid spendthrift. I'm the bestest most frugal person ever!" (Not here, of course, because Mustachinans are more realistic than most, but rather in my IRL interactions).

The truth is, kids just change your priorities in a way that is hard to quantify financially. Kids are also small human beings, with their own personalities and interests. You get to shape some of that, but they aren't clones of you. Maybe you like hiking and camping but your kid won't. Maybe you liked street hockey as a kid, but yours will want/need more structure. Maybe your kid will be a bookworm, spend $0 on activities, and get full academic scholarships to the college of your/their dreams. Or, maybe your kid will struggle with school but excel in sports and cost you and arm and a leg in fees, but finally find their calling in competitive team activities. Maybe they'll eat like a bird, or maybe they'll be 6' tall at age 14 and eat everything in sight. Maybe they'll be healthy, or maybe they'll be very sick. Maybe they'll win awards for volunteerism, or maybe they'll be a trouble-maker and need bail money once or twice.

I say all that just to say that it is probably very difficult to nail down just how much a kid will cost you. Its like agreeing to take care of an unpredictable roommate that you can't know ahead of time, and whose actions and psycho-social development you will be responsible for for the next couple of decades.

twinge

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 326
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2012, 06:37:51 AM »
Quote
I say all that just to say that it is probably very difficult to nail down just how much a kid will cost you. Its like agreeing to take care of an unpredictable roommate that you can't know ahead of time, and whose actions and psycho-social development you will be responsible for for the next couple of decades.


AJ--this made me laugh! I would add who you will love (sometimes inexplicably) like crazy.  Which may sometimes cloud your good judgment.

Your larger point is a good one--I would say the best we do is that we try to make good financial judgments within the constraints that our children bring and in alignment with what we value. For instance, in our case, we could retire in a couple of years and do the 30K a year approach of the MMM family if I didn't have to be 100% certain of no gaps health insurance due to a child's medical concerns, assurance of high-quality care, and access to key specialists. I may be being overly fearful and uptight, but my parental gut says no, this is an absolute. And it changes what is possible for us.

I think another key point is that it is important to realize that you do have some power to shape children within the constraints of who they are--our older child is very self-directed and creative and academically talented and I keep working to find outlets that are truly challenging but don't involve ever-escalating costs--and I encourage him to use these talents to help our family too.  Like, he makes our bread and   he has experimented with various combinations until he developed a recipe that used the maximum amount of healthy ingredients (e.g., oats, eggs) the least amount of less healthy (e.g., refined flours), still held together well, and tasted good.  I could send him to "science camp" to exercise the same capacities, but our  family's approach to life has made him see everyday things like this as possibilities.  (Right now he's taking on our garden planning too and doing it in a more efficient and excited way than I ever would).  If I thought camp would give him something essential (e.g., a group of peers that were similarly inclined) that he lacked elsewhere, I would consider it. 
I  feel like I'm constantly monitoring my children in an implicit way: are they growing well, are their needs met, are they developing their strengths, are there gaps, nagging concerns?


Mirwen

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 160
  • Location: Las Vegas
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2012, 09:30:50 AM »
Family of three, income under $40k, one son age two.

Insurance: $21 / month (HSA)

Kid's stuff: $ 64 / month (diapers- mix of cloth and disposable, toys, clothes, etc.)

Food: $ 70 /month  (This is one area where we don't skimp. However everything is home-cooked and made with fresh ingredients including organic veggies and fish.)

Housing?  I don't know.  Housing here is really cheap here.  We did move when we were expecting, but the new place costs less.

Tax credits:  -$208/ month

Net cost:  -$57 / month

However:
The biggest cost:  I no longer work full time.  ~ $700/month.  I don't miss it a bit.  Our life is much better now (and we are saving more).  Also the birth cost $3400 out of pocket.


I expect the expenses to be about the same for the next 8-10 years, then I expect them to double as a teenager.

However, there are ways to reduce costs of teenagers too.  I had a single mother as a parent who earned very little in her customer service job.  She made it very clear that as soon as I turned 16 I would have to get a job and buy my own stuff, and I did.  She still provided a roof and food, but I bought everything else for myself.  After 18 I had to pay rent to stay.  Also, I was not allowed to get a driver's license until I moved out because she couldn't afford the insurance.  Paying for my own college education was a given.  Result?  I became really good at biking everywhere and I have a very developed sense of personal responsibility for my life.

travelbug

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 277
  • Location: Australia
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2012, 05:12:03 PM »
Great thread, really interesting.

We have two children aged 5 and 2 and we homeschool (unschool).
You can truly make it as expensive as you wish. Our children want for nothing and have excess toys, clothes and books. They are never hungry and are healthy little ones.
They receive no extra toys unless it is Christmas or their birthday and then the glut is not from us, or Santa, but from family and friends.
we are leaning towards a minimalist approach so have to cull regularly. Crazy stuff enters our house!
We go to the library, we eat well and up til now they haven't added a huge amount to our food bill; maybe $50 a week but we are in Australia so it's more expensive here for food than in the USA.
Schooling costs can be huge (10k+ per year for a pretty good primary school, but not the best). We skip that due to unschooling.
Clothes are another perhaps $500pa all up.
Shoes; they have a summer and a winter pair each, so $200pa.
A bigger house/car can be your choice still, or not.

C


Erik Y

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2012, 04:08:00 PM »
As a father of six, I'll echo the general sentiment that "it depends".  I will add this though.  Having one or two children is dramatically less expensive than having as many as we have.  With one kid we didn't need a much bigger house or car than we might have had as just a couple.  Even having the second child didn't create a great need to upsize since both of our oldest are boys and could share a room.  When we our third child was born (a daughter) we ended up moving to a home with more than just two bedrooms.  Now that we have six our choice of house size is certainly a limiting factor, although we fit quite nicely in 2000 sq. ft. and could be happy with less space if needed.

We also drive a Suburban, which would not be a particularly Mustacian vehicle for a family of four, but is one of very few available choices for a family of eight.  Our cost per person/mile is pretty decent when we all go somewhere together too :)

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28444
  • Age: -997
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2012, 08:40:47 PM »
GetRichSlowly posted an Ask the Readers about this same question today:
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2012/03/23/ask-the-readers-how-much-do-you-spend-on-kids/

Crosslinking here so that anyone interested in this topic can read through all those comments as well, if desired.

My biggest problem is it's hard to get through this thread, and those comments, with any meaningful data.  Everything is so anecdotal, and has so many caveats.  One kid costs more because of a serious medical condition, while another goes to private school, while another has two infants, while another has 6 teenagers, another has a professional violinist prodigy that needs flying around the country, etc.

I may start a poll to try and get the average cost, per kid, and basically assume that everything will average out (i.e. maybe your kid doesn't have this one expensive thing, but does have some other expensive thing).  Just like a "no details of your situation, add up everything you spend on kids, divide by the number of kids" type thing.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

gooki

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2917
  • Location: NZ
    • My FIRE journal
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2012, 06:56:15 PM »
Take the national average and divide it by 2 and that'll give you an easily obtainable target.

In my situation we're currently spending $2,000 per year on our one year old child. I expect this expense to grow at around 10% per year.

Loss of one income was huge, especially considering my wife earned more than me. However we budgeted for it and still manage to contribute roughly 30% of my pay into savings, without effecting our lifestyle (any more than having a child already does).

dmobley

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2012, 08:48:31 AM »
We have four kids 5 & under. Generally they are cheap -- we use cloth diapers, clothes are mostly gifts or hand-me-downs (or worst case, used). The biggest "expenses" are gifts and food, and, well, are gifts really an expense? A lot depends on what you teach them -- if you teach them they need new toys and new things to be happy, you're going to spend a lot. If you teach them to make fun out of what they have (make a fort out of the kitchen chairs and blankets, ...) you'll spend a lot less.  I think food will be a much bigger issue when they hit teenage years though.

Also, there's currently still a tax credit for each child (and having additional dependents ups your deductions). This is probably not a factor if you have a really low income (i.e. retired) but it is if you're working. This year, for example, we actually had a negative effective income tax rate -- while my income is reasonable, we had so many deductions from charitable giving, mortgage interest, number of dependents, and so on, that once the child tax credit was tacked on, the government owed US money. (I'm not talking about just getting a refund -- we actually paid less than zero taxes).  So yes, there's a cost, but it is partially offset.

Though i've asked this question myself in the past, I also think it's a bit of a silly question. Can life really just be turned into numbers? That is to say, if I had to, I'd gladly give up financial independence for my kids. Not that I want to, or that I plan to, but it's just such an amazing, special relationship. I can't imagine giving that up because kids might get in the way of me getting where I want to be financially, if that makes any sense. I guess what I'm saying is that my life, with my wife and kids, is about a lot more than me, and I'd never want to give that up for financial reasons.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28444
  • Age: -997
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2012, 09:44:01 AM »
I can't imagine giving that up because kids might get in the way of me getting where I want to be financially, if that makes any sense. I guess what I'm saying is that my life, with my wife and kids, is about a lot more than me, and I'd never want to give that up for financial reasons.

(Emphasis mine.)

Oh absolutely.  But we're not discussing giving them up, we're discussing the tradeoffs of pushing them back for a year (or a few?).

There are certainly times when having them versus not is discussed, and almost every parent I've seen comes out on your side.  But how about the pushing them back a bit question?  That's, I think, a more interesting question.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

dmobley

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2012, 08:10:53 AM »
Right. I think what I was trying to say (unfortunately, not very clearly) is that it's not at all obvious in advance when "pushing them back" actually could turn into "not having them". It took us several years once we started trying before we were able to have kids, and we know other people for whom the wait was even longer (and, of course, others who were able to essentially instantly!). If we had waited too long (say, til my wife's early or mid-30s) we might not have ended up with any kids at all.

Anyway, originally (pre-kids) I was much more of the mindset that "let's wait until we're really ready to have kids" and now, if i could give myself advice back then, I would try to convince myself that, since I can't predict the future, it's probably better just to go ahead.

So, to just summarize another way: I think we planner types have this tendency to figure out the perfect time to have kids and try to time it so it happens then. Unfortunately it doesn't always work that way, so you've got to weigh the relative downsides of (a) potentially having kids before you're "ready" vs. (b) potentially not being able to have kids for a while (years, even) when you *are* "ready". Depending on your circumstances (such as age) you might conclude (b) is worse than (a).

$_gone_amok

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 149
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2012, 04:06:11 PM »
Having kids can be as expensive as you want. My two kids cost $4K a month for daycare/food/etc.

However, the real cost of having kids is the time that it take to raise them.  The time that you spend with the kids could be used for a side job, a small business or longer hours at work (in turn, increased salary/bonus).  So by raising kids you are essentially giving up some opportunity to make more money but at the end of the day it's all a very personal decision.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28444
  • Age: -997
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2012, 05:25:18 PM »
Having kids can be as expensive as you want. My two kids cost $4K a month for daycare/food/etc.


These sentences, right after each other, don't make sense to me.

So you choose to spend 48k/yr?  Why not choose to spend less?
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

velocistar237

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1424
  • Location: Metro Boston
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2012, 09:30:15 AM »
So by raising kids you are essentially giving up some opportunity to make more money but at the end of the day it's all a very personal decision.

This is why it's great to raise kids after FI, when the opportunity cost of raising kids is near zero, since you wouldn't work anyway.

$_gone_amok

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 149
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2012, 10:57:59 AM »
Having kids can be as expensive as you want. My two kids cost $4K a month for daycare/food/etc.


These sentences, right after each other, don't make sense to me.

So you choose to spend 48k/yr?  Why not choose to spend less?

We live in one of the more expensive cities and I think the average cost of a center run daycare is $1500/month per kid.  We are sucking it up and paying for it until the kids start public school in a few years. We could send the kids to a family run day care that costs $700-800/month per kid but good family daycare are hard to find. We'd rather paying more for a quality daycare in exchange for a peace of mind and well being of the kids.

$_gone_amok

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 149
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2012, 11:09:34 AM »
So by raising kids you are essentially giving up some opportunity to make more money but at the end of the day it's all a very personal decision.

This is why it's great to raise kids after FI, when the opportunity cost of raising kids is near zero, since you wouldn't work anyway.

That's true, but that means they need to attain FI before the woman in the relationship reaches the age where having kids become impossible.  It is probably easier for high-incomers living in low COL areas to attain FI and raise kids on their own like MMM and MrsMM.  But I think for people living in SF or NYC it is almost impossible to become FI before 40.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28444
  • Age: -997
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2012, 11:31:00 AM »
But I think for people living in SF or NYC it is almost impossible to become FI before 40.

Perhaps, but not necessarily.  Also it may be easier for them, because they could save a bunch and then move to become FI very early. Earn in the high cost of living (and high wages) area, take the money to a low cost of living area.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

$_gone_amok

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 149
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2012, 12:14:28 PM »
But I think for people living in SF or NYC it is almost impossible to become FI before 40.

Perhaps, but not necessarily.  Also it may be easier for them, because they could save a bunch and then move to become FI very early. Earn in the high cost of living (and high wages) area, take the money to a low cost of living area.

The single largest expenses in SF and NYC is the cost of housing. I think for someone without mortgage/rent, being FI is very possible.  However, the time to pay off the mortgage is another story.

velocistar237

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1424
  • Location: Metro Boston
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2012, 08:42:12 AM »
This is why it's great to raise kids after FI, when the opportunity cost of raising kids is near zero, since you wouldn't work anyway.

That's true, but that means they need to attain FI before the woman in the relationship reaches the age where having kids become impossible.

Right. I should note that I have kids and I'm not FI yet. My above recommendation is actually MMM's, and I've made a different choice. Still, if it's doable, it's a good idea.

It is probably easier for high-incomers living in low COL areas to attain FI and raise kids on their own like MMM and MrsMM.  But I think for people living in SF or NYC it is almost impossible to become FI before 40.

For people living in SF and NYC who don't have an income high enough or expenses low enough to save in an MMM way, they've chosen the city over faster financial freedom, for whatever reason. Admittedly, this describes me, too. The living wage calculator lists the living wage for my city as higher than both SF and NYC (I suspect some mistake, though), and my income is not terribly high for this area.

tooqk4u22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2846
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2012, 09:11:49 AM »
The single largest expense was the income given up for one parent to stay home as it exceeded the entire budget, but it is great for the kids and makes everything so much easier.

gooki

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2917
  • Location: NZ
    • My FIRE journal
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2012, 04:34:59 PM »
The single largest expense was the income given up for one parent to stay home as it exceeded the entire budget, but it is great for the kids and makes everything so much easier.

And I just look at it like my wife is taking a few years retirement in advance.

tooqk4u22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2846
Re: How much more do kids cost?
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2012, 08:06:08 AM »
And I just look at it like my wife is taking a few years retirement in advance.
[/quote]

That is a nice way to look at it, but I have a feeling my wife would not want to credit these years against her retirement account - she loves that she is home but it looks like a lot of work to me.