How much Money is FU money?

[NorthernMonkey]

I been reading the Epic FU money thread, and a lot of people on there consider having FU money to be a lot less than FIRE money. It seems that being in a position of FU occurs well before the x25 expenditure that is touted frequently.

Trying to not de-rail that thread by asking the question in another place.

In terms of months of expenditure, how many months of funds would you want before you'd say you have FU money.

I'm currently sat with no debt, having got rid of the mortgage and driving a £500 car, and approaching 4 times my annual expenditure in non-retirement funds. Would you consider this to be over the FU money threshold?

[Linea_Norway]

If you are a couple and can live off only one salary, I consider that an amount of FU money. It means that one of you can quit their job and still be out of trouble. Otherwise, I think having a year's expenses would be a good amount. If you then lose your job, you should be able to manage to find something else in a year.

[Trifle]

I was going to say the same thing as Linda.  I think 1-2 years' living expenses is FU money.

[Metalcat]

There is no definition of FU money.

It's completely self defined and depends entirely on your personal and professional circumstances.

FU money is just the state of financial/professional security that allows you not to depend on your particular job. As previously mentioned, having a dual income situation can make almost any level of savings an FU money situation. What also lowers the bar drastically is having a career where you can easily switch jobs (or careers).

In the above case, even just a decent emergency fund would probably be enough to count as FU money, even if they have a negative net worth.

Meanwhile, if someone is the primary breadwinner for a family with inflexible and high fixed expenses and works in a career where it's harder to leave a particular company, then that person's FU money level is likely A LOT higher.

In that person's case, they may not feel fearless about losing their job until they reach at least CoastFI levels, or close to full FIRE.

FU money is all about how the person feels about risk, it isn't actually an objective concept. It's 100% in your own head.

[Maenad]

There is no definition of FU money.

It's completely self defined and depends entirely on your personal and professional circumstances.

Exactly. You can ask what everyone's particular amount is for their specific circumstances, but it's definitely more a mental thing than physical.

My FIL's FU amount was 0, which for him was an indicator of his poor financial choices. My parents' FU amount was infinite, because they never felt secure. I think I hit mine around age 40, when we had maybe 10-15 years' expenses saved up - work got extremely stressful, and that stress kind of forced me to think about where we were at. It didn't really sink in until I had enough experience to understand the job market and our living expenses on more than an intellectual level.

[MrThatsDifferent]

My definition of FU money is the least amount I need to reach my target number at true retirement. So say I want $40k for life, I need 1 million. If I have $250k at 45 yo, I should end up with $1m at 65. So then I only need $40k after taxes to sustain me each year for the 20 years in between, that can be achieved a number of ways but far easier than finding a higher paying job, so essentially I have FU money because I have more options.

[2Birds1Stone]

For me it was 10 years expenses. But I'm a college dropout, so not as confident in finding a new job like some here.

Then I lowered my expenses over time, to where I only needed $1200/month to live.  Now any job would sustain me. Suddenly more power over my situation.

[Linea_Norway]

When I noticed that we were living off lower than one of our incomes, I felt really secure. We also mentioned that to each other: We can live off one income. If your job becomes insecure/intolerable, You can always quit and we will be safe.

[NorthernMonkey]

My partner works 3 (really hard) days a week in the Care sector. It would be a struggle for us to live off that one income, which was the main driver for me firstly getting rid of the mortgage, and then building up a stash

[Metalcat]

My partner works 3 (really hard) days a week in the Care sector. It would be a struggle for us to live off that one income, which was the main driver for me firstly getting rid of the mortgage, and then building up a stash

You may want to check out the math on not paying off your mortgage first, as it may be a much faster and better option in your situation. I know that's counter intuitive, but it's very much worth looking at seriously.

This is coming from someone who was determined to pay off their mortgage and then learned here how that was actually the WORST option for my particular circumstances.

[Bloop Bloop]

I don't really understand the concept of FU money. If you don't like your job, by all mans leave, but I have found it is usually easier to secure alternative employment before you leave your job, and I've also found that it pays to stay civil and gracious no matter what your true feelings; in no case then is there an "FU" moment.

If by "FU money" you mean an attitude that you're not going to take any shit and that you're going to put your own wants and needs first, then I think you should always do that, subject to having enough money for an emergency fund.

[NorthernMonkey]

My partner works 3 (really hard) days a week in the Care sector. It would be a struggle for us to live off that one income, which was the main driver for me firstly getting rid of the mortgage, and then building up a stash

You may want to check out the math on not paying off your mortgage first, as it may be a much faster and better option in your situation. I know that's counter intuitive, but it's very much worth looking at seriously.

This is coming from someone who was determined to pay off their mortgage and then learned here how that was actually the WORST option for my particular circumstances.

It's already gone. I paid it off on December the 23rd 2017. It would be possible to re-mortgage, although I'm not sure (in England) that borrowing against a house for investing is permitted

[MrThatsDifferent]

I don't really understand the concept of FU money. If you don't like your job, by all mans leave, but I have found it is usually easier to secure alternative employment before you leave your job, and I've also found that it pays to stay civil and gracious no matter what your true feelings; in no case then is there an "FU" moment.

If by "FU money" you mean an attitude that you're not going to take any shit and that you're going to put your own wants and needs first, then I think you should always do that, subject to having enough money for an emergency fund.

FU money means to live fearlessly without concern that losing your job, for whatever reason, will ruin your life or even impede your journey in any significant way.

[SaucyAussie]

I'm a single parent with a mortgage and significant child support obligations.  On top of that, I'm fortunate enough to work from home full time in a well paying job.  So my FU number is really, really high, probably close to my FIRE number.

The only thing that might change that is if my wfh privileges were revoked forcing me to move to a new state.  I think about that a lot - in that case I would probably want about half my FIRE number to say FU.

[Bloop Bloop]

I don't really understand the concept of FU money. If you don't like your job, by all mans leave, but I have found it is usually easier to secure alternative employment before you leave your job, and I've also found that it pays to stay civil and gracious no matter what your true feelings; in no case then is there an "FU" moment.

If by "FU money" you mean an attitude that you're not going to take any shit and that you're going to put your own wants and needs first, then I think you should always do that, subject to having enough money for an emergency fund.

FU money means to live fearlessly without concern that losing your job, for whatever reason, will ruin your life or even impede your journey in any significant way.

Then it really depends on the depth of your talent and employability, and isn't something that can be generalised.

[Metalcat]

I don't really understand the concept of FU money. If you don't like your job, by all mans leave, but I have found it is usually easier to secure alternative employment before you leave your job, and I've also found that it pays to stay civil and gracious no matter what your true feelings; in no case then is there an "FU" moment.

If by "FU money" you mean an attitude that you're not going to take any shit and that you're going to put your own wants and needs first, then I think you should always do that, subject to having enough money for an emergency fund.

FU money means to live fearlessly without concern that losing your job, for whatever reason, will ruin your life or even impede your journey in any significant way.

Then it really depends on the depth of your talent and employability, and isn't something that can be generalised.

Precisely.

[damnedbee]

My personal FU goal is 12 months of expenses in liquid accounts (beyond emergency savings). I've had the feeling of being chained to a horrible job that made me mentally and physically unwell, so I never want to be in that position again. It's not permanent freedom, but it's enough that I could feel confident walking away if I had to.

[May2030]

My partner works 3 (really hard) days a week in the Care sector. It would be a struggle for us to live off that one income, which was the main driver for me firstly getting rid of the mortgage, and then building up a stash

You may want to check out the math on not paying off your mortgage first, as it may be a much faster and better option in your situation. I know that's counter intuitive, but it's very much worth looking at seriously.

This is coming from someone who was determined to pay off their mortgage and then learned here how that was actually the WORST option for my particular circumstances.

It's already gone. I paid it off on December the 23rd 2017. It would be possible to re-mortgage, although I'm not sure (in England) that borrowing against a house for investing is permitted

Don't borrow from your paid off home to invest (unless you really really 100% absolutely know what you are doing). Its not optimal but personally having a paid off home has psychological value and at the time I never knew any better.

[dougules]

I'd say FU money isn't an exact number.  I'd say it's whatever it would take for you to live until you can get another job, plus some safety margin.  If you think it would take you a year to get another job then the number's going to be a lot higher than the guy that could easily go out and get something else tomorrow. 

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

I don't really understand the concept of FU money. If you don't like your job, by all mans leave, but I have found it is usually easier to secure alternative employment before you leave your job, and I've also found that it pays to stay civil and gracious no matter what your true feelings; in no case then is there an "FU" moment.

If by "FU money" you mean an attitude that you're not going to take any shit and that you're going to put your own wants and needs first, then I think you should always do that, subject to having enough money for an emergency fund.

That's the ideal situation, when dealing with reasonable people in the workplace. Most of the people on the FU thread have faced some extremely unreasonable situations. That goes from 'I'm going to look for another job' to 'I need to get out of here for my own sanity' VERY quickly.

[pdxmonkey]

I literally told one of my bosses Fu one time and walked out. It was my first professional job and he was not only my boss, but also the owner. I was working full time and in grad school. I had somewhere approaching 0 dollars and a negative net worth, but the guy was a real dick and was giving me some bs about his financial statement and not wanting to pay me on time. I told him f u those are the risks you take as an owner, etc. I even slammed the door on the way out. I had enough that day. I didn't quit, but I did leave for the day. Came back the next day and didn't get fired.

It was pretty epic. I didn't really feel like I had f u money again after that until I hit 25x my current expenses. My current expenses are not my planned retirement expenses as I pay $0 for healthcare and am slowly inflating my lifestyle to stay at 25x my stash. It's starting to feel like a pretty good level where I'm not needing to overly stress on being frugal and I can start adorning some fancier foods so I feel like I'm starting to approach a good fire number.

So f u money is < $0 because there's nothing to lose or 25x basic existence for me.

[use2betrix]

It really depends entirely on the person and their scenario.

Scenario 1:

Wife and Husband live in their small Midwest hometown where all their family is. Husband is a stay at home dad with minimal earning potential. Wife has her MBA and is a top executive at the towns only large employer in the city. They have 3 young children.

Scenario 2:

Myself and my wife. I am a contract working and as such, we move all over the country for work and have no roots anywhere. We would have zero issue leaving a job and moving across the country in the next week. I’ve had similar situations countless times. My wife doesn’t work, so it’s even easier for us. I make a lot of money, and being so mobile, we aren’t stuck in any one place.


Scenario 1: would take a LOT of money IMO opinion to say “FU.” They would likely have to leave their hometown with all their friends, family, change schools for the kids, etc., to keep the same or even a remotely close earning potential. OR, potentially take a major pay cut to work elsewhere in town because you burned bridges with the towns only major employer.

Scenario 2: it really doesn’t take that large of a stache for me. We’re at around a 70% savings rate right now, and have around 6 years of living expenses saved, with around 8 months of an emergency savings in our savings/checking. If I were to say “FU” I have no doubt that I could find a job where I’d still have at least a 50% savings rate within a month. My FU would definitely involve a several month sabbatical and then looking for work.. I’ve been very, very close to the FU a few times in my career, but when you are getting paid such an absurd amount, it’s amazing how much more you put up with. It’s a lot harder to walk away from $300k than it is from $75k. My current job I was having so many issues with my coworker I told my boss that if this guy was still employed when I moved, I was only signing a 6 month lease instead of a 12 month because I needed an option out if I get to that point I am that fed up.. My boss fired him in January and I signed my 12 month lease last week lol.

[BudgetSlasher]

I don't know that FU money is any set level or multiple of spending.

To me it is a sliding scale. The more money I have the easier it is to say FU (or a polite version thereof) to a lesser annoyance; with no other job offer I would say FU to a job that I spend 8 hours a day warming a chair (and nothing else) if I had enough money to retire. On the other end of the spectrum in a truly toxic work environmental I would say FU with enough money to cover my bare minimum expenses until I would reasonable expect to find another job.

[Just Joe]

My partner works 3 (really hard) days a week in the Care sector. It would be a struggle for us to live off that one income, which was the main driver for me firstly getting rid of the mortgage, and then building up a stash

You may want to check out the math on not paying off your mortgage first, as it may be a much faster and better option in your situation. I know that's counter intuitive, but it's very much worth looking at seriously.

This is coming from someone who was determined to pay off their mortgage and then learned here how that was actually the WORST option for my particular circumstances.

It's already gone. I paid it off on December the 23rd 2017. It would be possible to re-mortgage, although I'm not sure (in England) that borrowing against a house for investing is permitted

Don't borrow from your paid off home to invest (unless you really really 100% absolutely know what you are doing). Its not optimal but personally having a paid off home has psychological value and at the time I never knew any better.

I know how keeping the mortgage and investing more pays off with more dollar signs later but being mortgage free can be an important part of a person's FU money. No mortgage, the house is your's and if you quit some miserable job, you'll still have a roof over your head. It will require a lesser job to remain financially solvent b/c no mortgage.

[Linea_Norway]

I know how keeping the mortgage and investing more pays off with more dollar signs later but being mortgage free can be an important part of a person's FU money. No mortgage, the house is your's and if you quit some miserable job, you'll still have a roof over your head. It will require a lesser job to remain financially solvent b/c no mortgage.

I agree. Without a mortgage (and without renting a house), you have very low living expenses. It makes it really easy to live off one income.

Personally I have always felt the need to sign up for a new job while still working in the old job. For the reason that you are more attractive for a new employer while in a job. But it is also because it has never felt natural to start living off our savings. It would feel weird to sell stocks because I need to pay the electricity bill. (That will be something we need to get used to after FIRE).

[soccerluvof4]

Right now with things a little lofty in my own opinion I have a little over 3 years in Living expenses which is about 15% in cash or cash like assets, CDS , short terms bonds, Higher interest accounts etc.. which equates in all about 15% of my portfolio. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[Metalcat]

My partner works 3 (really hard) days a week in the Care sector. It would be a struggle for us to live off that one income, which was the main driver for me firstly getting rid of the mortgage, and then building up a stash

You may want to check out the math on not paying off your mortgage first, as it may be a much faster and better option in your situation. I know that's counter intuitive, but it's very much worth looking at seriously.

This is coming from someone who was determined to pay off their mortgage and then learned here how that was actually the WORST option for my particular circumstances.

It's already gone. I paid it off on December the 23rd 2017. It would be possible to re-mortgage, although I'm not sure (in England) that borrowing against a house for investing is permitted

Don't borrow from your paid off home to invest (unless you really really 100% absolutely know what you are doing). Its not optimal but personally having a paid off home has psychological value and at the time I never knew any better.

I know how keeping the mortgage and investing more pays off with more dollar signs later but being mortgage free can be an important part of a person's FU money. No mortgage, the house is your's and if you quit some miserable job, you'll still have a roof over your head. It will require a lesser job to remain financially solvent b/c no mortgage.

Yeah...

Except you're infinitely more vulnerable until the house is paid off in full because you have a lot less liquid savings, but still have the demands of the full mortgage payment.

Also, I read the first quoted post to imply that they prioritized their mortgage even over tax advantaged accounts, which could be wrong.

Personally, I don't care at all about how optimal not paying the mortgage is for the final savings goal, I don't really care about my FI number. I care far more about early career flexibility, which is why I hoard liquid savings over paying down low interest debt.

I started working with piles of debt and an unpredictable career. Had I socked everything into debt, I would have been highly vulnerable for the first 5 years and not been able to leave my job when things got very ugly in the third year. Instead, because I quickly saved some FU money, I've had freedom and flexibility since the early days.

That said, this whole subject is psychological, so maybe some people *need* a paid off mortgage in order to feel that sense of freedom. Who knows.

[Parizade]

It really depends entirely on the person and their scenario.

This is a really good point! There's FU money and then there's an FU lifestyle. For me personally the lifestyle choices have been just as important in developing an FU mindset. My choices have formed a solid FU foundation, the money is secondary.

[Just Joe]

Except you're infinitely more vulnerable until the house is paid off in full because you have a lot less liquid savings, but still have the demands of the full mortgage payment.

Or pile up a bunch of money and then pay it off early. You have a big pile of savings and a mortgage until the savings exceed the mortgage by a certain amount (a safety margin) and then boom, the mortgage is gone and there is a smaller pile of FU money but you have a roof over your head no matter what. Also, invest. It slows the payoff but compound interest.

This all depends on how much a person needs to move around for their career advancement. DW and I are very settled here, little to no chance that we will move before we retire b/c we have jobs we can stick with another decade or so without pulling out our hair.

[clarkfan1979]

I would consider 6-12 months to be FU money. It depends on what type of job you have and how long it would take you to find a better job.

[Just Joe]

For me one year of barebones expenses would be enough FU money if I planned to go back to work within a year or less. If I wanted to do something like take a long trip then I'd want enough for that plus a couple of months expenses to live on when returning to find a job. I'm FIREd now but always kept expenses low so could manage on either very little in savings to cover barebones expenses or a minimum wage job if I had to until something else came along.

Minimum wage job. Us too.

[WynnDuffy73]

My partner works 3 (really hard) days a week in the Care sector. It would be a struggle for us to live off that one income, which was the main driver for me firstly getting rid of the mortgage, and then building up a stash

We paid off the mortgage and can now easily live off of just 1 salary.  I’m currently dealing with a ridiculous boss and the urge to just walk out is strong.

[ryanBC]

To me, you have FU money as soon as your stash causes you to make different decisions. Like JL Collins' story about asking for four months of unpaid leave and being told no, so he quit.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

To me, you have FU money as soon as your stash causes you to make different decisions. Like JL Collins' story about asking for four months of unpaid leave and being told no, so he quit.

This is a great point. FU money changes the way you make decisions, and means you can value your own priorities over the companies priorities.

[dougules]

To me, you have FU money as soon as your stash causes you to make different decisions. Like JL Collins' story about asking for four months of unpaid leave and being told no, so he quit.

Honestly I think it's the other way around for a lot of people.  Even if you have FU money it can be hard to really put yourself in the mindset of having that power and even harder to act on it.  I'm beyond FU money, probably at a bare bones, higher risk tolerance level of FI, but it's difficult for me to really digest that on an emotional level.  I have trouble with anxiety at work sometimes, so it would be nice if I could really get it in my head.

[Versatile]

It varies tremendously naturally.

My definition is whenever one can walk away from full-time employment. Of course that is completely varied depending on one's circumstances.

[Bateaux]

For me FU was 1.2 million liquid and no debt.  That gave me a million even if a 20% drop hit the market.  Now, I've moved the bar up a bit.  I'm currently not in a state of FU.   I bought a house with a mortgage.  I owe money to the man now and lack the free cash to pay it off.  NW is over 2 million now, but my FU is temporarily surrendered.   Once I can sell some paid off real estate and get back debt free, I'll be FU again. 

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

To me, you have FU money as soon as your stash causes you to make different decisions. Like JL Collins' story about asking for four months of unpaid leave and being told no, so he quit.

Honestly I think it's the other way around for a lot of people.  Even if you have FU money it can be hard to really put yourself in the mindset of having that power and even harder to act on it.  I'm beyond FU money, probably at a bare bones, higher risk tolerance level of FI, but it's difficult for me to really digest that on an emotional level.  I have trouble with anxiety at work sometimes, so it would be nice if I could really get it in my head.

I'm the opposite. I've always been ready to walk. I've had some very questionable employers in my time. Anyway, now I have a financial back stop.

[dougules]

To me, you have FU money as soon as your stash causes you to make different decisions. Like JL Collins' story about asking for four months of unpaid leave and being told no, so he quit.

Honestly I think it's the other way around for a lot of people.  Even if you have FU money it can be hard to really put yourself in the mindset of having that power and even harder to act on it.  I'm beyond FU money, probably at a bare bones, higher risk tolerance level of FI, but it's difficult for me to really digest that on an emotional level.  I have trouble with anxiety at work sometimes, so it would be nice if I could really get it in my head.

I'm the opposite. I've always been ready to walk. I've had some very questionable employers in my time. Anyway, now I have a financial back stop.

But it sounds like that confidence wasn't related to the size of your FU stash. 

[SaucyAussie]

For me FU was 1.2 million liquid and no debt.  That gave me a million even if a 20% drop hit the market.  Now, I've moved the bar up a bit.  I'm currently not in a state of FU.   I bought a house with a mortgage.  I owe money to the man now and lack the free cash to pay it off.  NW is over 2 million now, but my FU is temporarily surrendered.   Once I can sell some paid off real estate and get back debt free, I'll be FU again.

0.96 million.  ;~

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

To me, you have FU money as soon as your stash causes you to make different decisions. Like JL Collins' story about asking for four months of unpaid leave and being told no, so he quit.

Honestly I think it's the other way around for a lot of people.  Even if you have FU money it can be hard to really put yourself in the mindset of having that power and even harder to act on it.  I'm beyond FU money, probably at a bare bones, higher risk tolerance level of FI, but it's difficult for me to really digest that on an emotional level.  I have trouble with anxiety at work sometimes, so it would be nice if I could really get it in my head.

I'm the opposite. I've always been ready to walk. I've had some very questionable employers in my time. Anyway, now I have a financial back stop.

But it sounds like that confidence wasn't related to the size of your FU stash.

Kind of. Before FU money, I'd find myself pushed well past the point of desperation and I'd leave with massive stress and have to take the next things that came up. This time I've been able to say 'nope' and leave knowing I have enough money to take my time. I'm 47 and I've resigned 4 or 5 jobs in my time.

[Bateaux]

For me FU was 1.2 million liquid and no debt.  That gave me a million even if a 20% drop hit the market.  Now, I've moved the bar up a bit.  I'm currently not in a state of FU.   I bought a house with a mortgage.  I owe money to the man now and lack the free cash to pay it off.  NW is over 2 million now, but my FU is temporarily surrendered.   Once I can sell some paid off real estate and get back debt free, I'll be FU again.

0.96 million.  ;~

Math sucks.