Poll

How much do you make?

0 - 10,000
11 (1.3%)
10,001 - 20,000
13 (1.6%)
20,001 - 30,000
27 (3.3%)
30,001 - 40,000
33 (4%)
40,001 - 50,000
56 (6.8%)
50,001 - 60,000
59 (7.2%)
60,001 - 70,000
76 (9.3%)
70,001 - 80,000
58 (7.1%)
80,001 - 90,000
67 (8.2%)
90,001 - 100,000
58 (7.1%)
100,001 - 110,000
32 (3.9%)
110,001 - 120,000
36 (4.4%)
120,001 - 130,000
36 (4.4%)
130,001 - 140,000
31 (3.8%)
140,001 - 150,000
34 (4.2%)
150,001 - 200,000
81 (9.9%)
200,001 - 250,000
48 (5.9%)
250,001 - 300,000
27 (3.3%)
300,001 - 350,000
10 (1.2%)
>350,000
26 (3.2%)

Total Members Voted: 767

Author Topic: How much does everyone make?  (Read 34711 times)

Le0

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How much does everyone make?
« on: December 23, 2013, 02:06:34 PM »
Recent Posts have really got me thinking about total income and how that changes peoples situation. I am interested where they MMM community sits in terms of how much they make.

Sorry if there is something similar on the boards already I did a bit of a search.

Household totals.

Before Tax.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 02:12:10 PM by Le0 »

Honest Abe

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2013, 02:10:03 PM »
Individual or household?

FuckRx

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2013, 02:11:13 PM »
before or after tax?

Le0

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2013, 02:11:24 PM »
I guess household. Because I am looking at peoples ability to spend while saving.

Iron Mike Sharpe

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2013, 02:24:28 PM »
Not sure what the poll is going to show.  Households are different sizes.  I am a household of 1.

ketchup

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2013, 02:33:26 PM »
I will make around 35K in 2014.  My girlfriend and I together will probably make about 60K in 2014.  Her sister and her sister's boyfriend will probably make around 50K.  The four of us live together.  So depending on your definition of "household", either 35K, 60K, or 110K.  I consider our household financially speaking to be the two of us, so 60K then I guess.

Le0

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2013, 02:57:27 PM »
Not sure what the poll is going to show.  Households are different sizes.  I am a household of 1.

Well if you assume that we all live within 25% of our household income, and save 75%. Then it will show the ability of MMM reader to spend while saving 75% of their income.

The recent discussion on cleaners has got me realizing that if I were to hire a cleaner that is a clear facepunch. But if someone can hire a cleaner and keep their total spending with 25% of their income then its not a facepunch. So I am now wondering which is the majority on the forums people who can or people who shouldn't.

StarswirlTheMustached

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2013, 03:32:07 PM »
Not sure what the poll is going to show.  Households are different sizes.  I am a household of 1.

Well if you assume that we all live within 25% of our household income, and save 75%. Then it will show the ability of MMM reader to spend while saving 75% of their income.

The recent discussion on cleaners has got me realizing that if I were to hire a cleaner that is a clear facepunch. But if someone can hire a cleaner and keep their total spending with 25% of their income then its not a facepunch. So I am now wondering which is the majority on the forums people who can or people who shouldn't.
There was a poll a while back on savings rate. Safe to say that that's NOT a safe assumption.

And no, a cleaner is always a face punch. It's not always about the money.

Undecided

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2013, 03:52:31 PM »
Not sure what the poll is going to show.  Households are different sizes.  I am a household of 1.

Well if you assume that we all live within 25% of our household income, and save 75%. Then it will show the ability of MMM reader to spend while saving 75% of their income.

The recent discussion on cleaners has got me realizing that if I were to hire a cleaner that is a clear facepunch. But if someone can hire a cleaner and keep their total spending with 25% of their income then its not a facepunch. So I am now wondering which is the majority on the forums people who can or people who shouldn't.
There was a poll a while back on savings rate. Safe to say that that's NOT a safe assumption.

And no, a cleaner is always a face punch. It's not always about the money.

We have a cleaner come in once a month to do a deeper cleaning than we do on a regular basis. The more regular cleaning is "fit in" in to whatever 15 minute spaces appear. The pro spends about four hours resetting things to a higher standard of clean. I estimate it would take me 6 hours to do the same, and that I could break it into two or three pieces and still be relatively efficient about it. For an annual cost of about one-quartet of one percent of my annual income, for my family to not lose six hours a month of not-at-work, not-a-school time, I think it's well worth it, even if you punch me in the face.

Eric

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2013, 03:56:15 PM »
Not sure what the poll is going to show.  Households are different sizes.  I am a household of 1.

Well if you assume that we all live within 25% of our household income, and save 75%. Then it will show the ability of MMM reader to spend while saving 75% of their income.

The recent discussion on cleaners has got me realizing that if I were to hire a cleaner that is a clear facepunch. But if someone can hire a cleaner and keep their total spending with 25% of their income then its not a facepunch. So I am now wondering which is the majority on the forums people who can or people who shouldn't.
There was a poll a while back on savings rate. Safe to say that that's NOT a safe assumption.

And no, a cleaner is always a face punch. It's not always about the money.

We have a cleaner come in once a month to do a deeper cleaning than we do on a regular basis. The more regular cleaning is "fit in" in to whatever 15 minute spaces appear. The pro spends about four hours resetting things to a higher standard of clean. I estimate it would take me 6 hours to do the same, and that I could break it into two or three pieces and still be relatively efficient about it. For an annual cost of about one-quartet of one percent of my annual income, for my family to not lose six hours a month of not-at-work, not-a-school time, I think it's well worth it, even if you punch me in the face.

Y'all should chime in over here if you haven't already:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/house-cleaning/

Nudelkopf

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2013, 04:55:09 PM »
Whoops, I clicked the wrong category. I'm earning just over $60,000 AUD... But in USD, that's only ~$54,000. Sorry.

LowER

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2013, 05:22:39 PM »
I would not have expected that distribution at all.  Very interesting….

aclarridge

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2013, 05:25:16 PM »
Rather than household income, a better statistic would be something like average income for working members of the household. Or just individual income rather than household.

Right now the statistics are meaningless because there's no way to separate couple's income from single's.

limeandpepper

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2013, 05:34:33 PM »
I thought the poll was depressing as I was in the low range, until I found out it was for household totals, which made me feel a bit better. Though then it became sort of meaningless to me as I don't know how many of the poll participants are single incomes, and how many are dual (or even more?), and which demographic has chosen what.

I live in a sharehouse, but I only put my income in, as I have no idea how much my housemates earn, and we do our own thing most of the time. Though, of course we do share rent and other bills, and if we were to hire a cleaner one day, for example, that would be something we'd arrange together.

Thegoblinchief

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2013, 05:49:56 PM »
North of $60K but not quite $70K since I've cut my hours back to be home during the week while my wife works.

Since the OP was curious about savings rate, currently we're only at 10-15% but that's going to quickly escalate as our debts retire. We only spend 25% of our income on actual living expenses/expenses that will continue into ER, and we have 3 kids.

melalvai

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2013, 06:27:33 PM »
I don't think it's a useless poll. This has come up several times and it's helpful information for some of the discussions. Sure it would be nice to have more details but you can't have anything. I guess someone can make 2 more polls, one for singles & one for couples, and anyone with alternate situations (>2) will have to figure something else out.

For example until 3 years ago, our highest combined income ever was $45K. Whether you're a single or a couple, it's going to be tough to get to FI on that.

Cinder

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2013, 06:37:47 PM »
I wonder if 'Household income divide by # of income earners' would be a better statistic?

shamelessHedon

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2013, 06:39:06 PM »
I can't vote on my phone.. somewhere around 120-140k. I haven't done the year end numbers yet. That's 6 income streams between the two of us.

2527

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2013, 07:28:48 PM »
I had trouble with it too in this regard:  does "male" include taxable dividends, all dividends, realized or unrealized capital gains?

ichangedmyname

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2013, 07:46:51 PM »
I picked 20,001-30,000. After taxes and 401k contributions and health insurance, including bonuses and other spiffs, I've made 28,915 and am looking forward to 1 more check before the year ends.

I know this isn't much to most people but I was actually earning WAAAAAAAAAY less last year with no insurance, no 401k no benefits.

NinetyFour

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2013, 07:51:20 PM »
\ does "male" include taxable dividends, all dividends, realized or unrealized capital gains?

Hmmm.  Now I am wondering what "female" might mean.  ;-)

Le0

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2013, 08:40:41 PM »
Would people be interested in doing a survey?

We could make a long list of questions - vote to a short list.

Then create a google form to collect the data. Everyone is able to see it. That way we can do some more stats like the individual earnings etc.

I think that the household income before taxes shows the potential of a household to spend. I am not saying everyone operates within their 25%... but at a certain income level it should be very simple to live like that give the MMM rules.

With a longer survey we could do some kind of rent versus income versus savings rate comparison.

galliver

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2013, 09:00:54 PM »
Not sure what the poll is going to show.  Households are different sizes.  I am a household of 1.

Well if you assume that we all live within 25% of our household income, and save 75%. Then it will show the ability of MMM reader to spend while saving 75% of their income.

The recent discussion on cleaners has got me realizing that if I were to hire a cleaner that is a clear facepunch. But if someone can hire a cleaner and keep their total spending with 25% of their income then its not a facepunch. So I am now wondering which is the majority on the forums people who can or people who shouldn't.

Funny, I kind of interpreted the MMM philosophy as living on as little as possible and saving the rest. Whether that's living on 20% of $100k or 80% of $25k.   (That's $20k both times.) I posit it's very difficult (not impossible, but most likely highly undesirable) for someone to live on 25% of $20k/year.

My stipend comes out to $26k before taxes.

Le0

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2013, 09:50:01 PM »
Not sure what the poll is going to show.  Households are different sizes.  I am a household of 1.

Well if you assume that we all live within 25% of our household income, and save 75%. Then it will show the ability of MMM reader to spend while saving 75% of their income.

The recent discussion on cleaners has got me realizing that if I were to hire a cleaner that is a clear facepunch. But if someone can hire a cleaner and keep their total spending with 25% of their income then its not a facepunch. So I am now wondering which is the majority on the forums people who can or people who shouldn't.

Funny, I kind of interpreted the MMM philosophy as living on as little as possible and saving the rest. Whether that's living on 20% of $100k or 80% of $25k.   (That's $20k both times.) I posit it's very difficult (not impossible, but most likely highly undesirable) for someone to live on 25% of $20k/year.

My stipend comes out to $26k before taxes.

Yes it is impossible. But that means there is a threshold income where you can retire in 7 years. Below the threshold have longer to go until FI.

I am hypothesizing that this threshold is at about 80,000. Which is 2 mid-range incomes if I am correct.

wtjbatman

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2013, 10:25:41 PM »
The correct answer is not enough.

Ian

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2013, 11:11:13 PM »
The distribution is much more even than I would have predicted. It does look like the community is weighted above median, but that's to be expected given the professions from the poll.

CanuckExpat

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2013, 11:40:49 PM »
I am hypothesizing that this threshold is at about 80,000. Which is 2 mid-range incomes if I am correct.
US median household income is approximately $50k, Canadian income tend to be slightly lower. So you may be over estimating what "midrange" is

limeandpepper

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2013, 12:06:28 AM »
Funny, I kind of interpreted the MMM philosophy as living on as little as possible and saving the rest.

I don't think MMM lives on "as little as possible", though. Also, Jacob of ERE had a more spartan life, and even he splurged on martial arts classes.

Khan

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2013, 02:37:59 AM »
Funny, I kind of interpreted the MMM philosophy as living on as little as possible and saving the rest.

I don't think MMM lives on "as little as possible", though. Also, Jacob of ERE had a more spartan life, and even he splurged on martial arts classes.

I think it's more appropriately: "Consider the value of every dollar spent. Conscious spending."

At it's basest, that is Nord and MMM's life.

2527

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2013, 03:37:16 AM »
Way to go!
I picked 20,001-30,000. After taxes and 401k contributions and health insurance, including bonuses and other spiffs, I've made 28,915 and am looking forward to 1 more check before the year ends.

I know this isn't much to most people but I was actually earning WAAAAAAAAAY less last year with no insurance, no 401k no benefits.

Albert

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2013, 04:31:04 AM »
Not sure what the poll is going to show.  Households are different sizes.  I am a household of 1.

Well if you assume that we all live within 25% of our household income, and save 75%. Then it will show the ability of MMM reader to spend while saving 75% of their income.

The recent discussion on cleaners has got me realizing that if I were to hire a cleaner that is a clear facepunch. But if someone can hire a cleaner and keep their total spending with 25% of their income then its not a facepunch. So I am now wondering which is the majority on the forums people who can or people who shouldn't.

I doubt very much that is true. I save about 50% and I'm not looking for a really early retirement either. Let's not pigeonhole people, there is more diversity on this board than you assume.

Albert

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2013, 04:35:59 AM »
I voted for before taxes income, maybe it was a wrong way to do it...


The most meaningful number I think would be derived by taking the total household after tax income (also subtracting pension fund contributions if relevant) and dividing by the number of people in the household.

TorontoDeveloper

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2013, 07:50:24 AM »
I am hypothesizing that this threshold is at about 80,000. Which is 2 mid-range incomes if I am correct.
US median household income is approximately $50k, Canadian income tend to be slightly lower. So you may be over estimating what "midrange" is

Canada's median household income in 2011 was $72k: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil108a-eng.htm
US median household income in 2004 was $44k: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#Median_income

Albert

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2013, 08:06:16 AM »
With the current exchange rate and resource boom Canadians are almost certainly richer than Americans at least in nominal dollars.

ender

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2013, 08:15:37 AM »
This poll really needs to be split based on how many people are in the household.


Insanity

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2013, 08:18:57 AM »
This poll really needs to be split based on how many people are in the household.

how many wage earners in the household ;)

we have 3 non-wage earners in our house essentially (my wife is a stay at home mom who does coupons so she "earns" by saving).  Then we have our biggest non-wage earner -- the dog.  He has no future earning potential at all…..

sdp

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2013, 08:30:29 AM »
My Wife makes 28K =full time job 14 bucks/hour
I make:
    20K= around 1,000hrs a year 18bucks/hour plus tips
  +3240 to be landlord at a duplex down the street (270/mo)
  +approx 9000 net from our rentals we own
_____________________________________
=60K/yr
Cheers,
Scott

   

Seppie

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2013, 10:10:51 AM »
This poll really needs to be split based on how many people are in the household.

how many wage earners in the household ;)

we have 3 non-wage earners in our house essentially (my wife is a stay at home mom who does coupons so she "earns" by saving).  Then we have our biggest non-wage earner -- the dog.  He has no future earning potential at all…..

Actually, I think that if what you're looking for is a way to analyze income relative spending and saving, it's more useful to look at all people in the household, rather than just wage earners.  Our household has 2 wage earners, but 6 spenders (not counting the two dogs) and I would argue (as I have in other places on the forum) that despite the fact that the second wage earner in our house makes more than 1.5x what I make,  there is no possible way that we can save as much as I could save if I were single with no kids. It doesn't matter how many people are making the money, what matters is how much total money comes in and how many people are spending it.  I agree with Albert above that the most useful metric is probably income/number of people.

galliver

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2013, 10:49:42 AM »
Funny, I kind of interpreted the MMM philosophy as living on as little as possible and saving the rest.

I don't think MMM lives on "as little as possible", though. Also, Jacob of ERE had a more spartan life, and even he splurged on martial arts classes.

*as little as you can (eliminating wasteful/excessive spending) while still gathering enjoyment from life (spending time and money on what matters) and not imposing on others undesirably (e.g. mooching). :)

Insanity

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2013, 11:07:01 AM »
This poll really needs to be split based on how many people are in the household.

how many wage earners in the household ;)

we have 3 non-wage earners in our house essentially (my wife is a stay at home mom who does coupons so she "earns" by saving).  Then we have our biggest non-wage earner -- the dog.  He has no future earning potential at all…..

Actually, I think that if what you're looking for is a way to analyze income relative spending and saving, it's more useful to look at all people in the household, rather than just wage earners.  Our household has 2 wage earners, but 6 spenders (not counting the two dogs) and I would argue (as I have in other places on the forum) that despite the fact that the second wage earner in our house makes more than 1.5x what I make,  there is no possible way that we can save as much as I could save if I were single with no kids. It doesn't matter how many people are making the money, what matters is how much total money comes in and how many people are spending it.  I agree with Albert above that the most useful metric is probably income/number of people.

I thought this was looking at income per person, not income vs savings.  that's why I pointed that out.  I agree with the savings metric, though.

Albert

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2013, 11:29:22 AM »
After thinking about it a bit more I think it would be better to divide by 1.5 for every additional household member because there are significant savings with 2 (or more) people living together instead of separately.

So my formula would be Total net income/0.5+0.5x where x is a number household members

Of course that still doesn't take into account cost of living in your area and what you need to save for (pension or not?, free education or not?), but it's better than nothing.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 01:20:24 PM by Albert »

Don Voice

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2013, 11:34:08 AM »
Would people be interested in doing a survey?

I like the idea of a survey, though there are probably better (more anonymous) ways to do it that will correlate answers and all that fancy business for you. I've never made a survey so I'm not sure what would be best, but my university uses Surveymonkey and Doodle all the time.

Le0

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2013, 11:50:17 AM »
Would people be interested in doing a survey?

I like the idea of a survey, though there are probably better (more anonymous) ways to do it that will correlate answers and all that fancy business for you. I've never made a survey so I'm not sure what would be best, but my university uses Surveymonkey and Doodle all the time.

Survey monkey would be good.  I just would want to make sure anyone from mmm that wants access to the data can easily get it.  And I would want the survey to be transparent, not just a couple members doing it something everyone can follow.

Sparky

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2013, 11:58:26 AM »
Myself: 140-150
My family (I choose to live with my parents, who who work full time) : ~270


ender

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #44 on: December 24, 2013, 12:56:13 PM »
After thinking about it a bit more I think it would be better divide by 1.5 for every additional household member because there are significant savings with 2 (or more) people living together instead of separately.

At the same time, for some of us, to get married will almost assuredly increase my per/person expenses. I'm currently renting with 2 other guys and getting married would reduce the number of people from three to two.

coffee_sipper

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #45 on: December 24, 2013, 07:40:53 PM »
Already voted before reading all of the other posts. I put down how much I make pretax (Only voted on income that is taxes however) and I only included myself. Oh well, lol. I' surprised to see most of the individuals polled making quite a bit even for higher priced areas within the United States.

CanuckExpat

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #46 on: December 24, 2013, 07:51:26 PM »
I am hypothesizing that this threshold is at about 80,000. Which is 2 mid-range incomes if I am correct.
US median household income is approximately $50k, Canadian income tend to be slightly lower. So you may be over estimating what "midrange" is

Canada's median household income in 2011 was $72k: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil108a-eng.htm
US median household income in 2004 was $44k: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#Median_income
Thanks! I hadn't bothered to check the numbers, and just went with the "higher salaries in the states" assumption, which turns out to be wrong in the aggregate. I was posting from my phone, where everything is harder then from a computer.
For what it's worth, updated US income figures put the median household income at $53,046 (2008-2012). Also, I'm sure it's not a huge effect, but now that Stats Can has switched from the mandatory long-form survey to the voluntary version, their numbers aren't considered as accurate, and in fact one of the worries was that it would be biased towards higher income groups (who have the time, education, and inclination to fill out voluntary surveys).

Thanks for setting me straight. You learn something new everyday.

lentilman

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #47 on: December 24, 2013, 08:40:56 PM »
I am hypothesizing that this threshold is at about 80,000. Which is 2 mid-range incomes if I am correct.
US median household income is approximately $50k, Canadian income tend to be slightly lower. So you may be over estimating what "midrange" is

Canada's median household income in 2011 was $72k: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil108a-eng.htm
US median household income in 2004 was $44k: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#Median_income

The US mean income is highly distorted by income inequality.

The average income for the bottom 90% (everyone excluding the top 10%) is only $30k.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 10:42:22 PM by lentilman »

CanuckExpat

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #48 on: December 24, 2013, 08:54:11 PM »
The US median income is highly distorted by income inequality.

The average income for the bottom 90% (everyone excluding the top 10%) is only $30k.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph

How would income inequality distort the median income?
http://www.conceptstew.co.uk/PAGES/mean_or_median.html

The mother jones article seems to be using "average" income as synonymous with mean income. Calculating the mean is not a good idea for data like income that is not symmetrically distributed. Also, this is probably a losing battle, but average should not be synonymous with the mean, it simply means some measure of central tendency.
I also think infographics in general are to be distrusted:
http://xkcd.com/1273/
http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3167

acroy

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Re: How much does everyone make?
« Reply #49 on: December 24, 2013, 09:05:41 PM »
Nice poll - interesting feedback

Merry Christmas everyone