The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: AndreaGS on June 10, 2015, 04:09:35 PM
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Hi all! New here! I'm 32 and my husband and I recently paid off our 300K mortgage after 7 years. I posted about it on reddit and on my blog and...wow. Avalanche of vitriol. Someone linked to this blog and here I am! I wish I'd known about it sooner! We came to use a lot of the same techniques--because it just makes sense. We bought a place close to work so we could ride our bicycles. We spend very little on groceries or material items. We don't have cable. We have one, reliable, 15-year-old car. We make a lot of our own stuff, from bread to laundry detergent. We also made our 0.1 acre lot work for us, so we grow most of our own produce and have chickens and ducks for eggs. We still go on vacation, because experiences are important to us.
But how much do you all tell the people around you about your lifestyle and accomplishments? I don't think the people that know us directly are resentful, because they've seen how we live. But what about people that don't see your day-to-day? I mean, they think you must be rich, right? They get angry.
Do you just keep it to yourself? I thought I'd be helping people by sharing the techniques we used and how we saved, but I've gotten a ton of angry comments and some honest-to-God hate mail.
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Actual friends and family I'm close with I tell about my plans.
Like-minded people on the internet I tell about my plans.
Random ass people in the world I do not tell about my plans. I see no reason to do so.
I haven't had any hate mail or negative push back yet.
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We talk about weird lifestyle stuff we do because people seem to get a kick out of it. Especially strange or creative ways we fix things or problem solve. Or re-purposed things.
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I told my dad. I plan on telling my mother in a year, who will likely tell her brothers. That will be it. You're assuming that everyone in the world thinks like you do. Most people can't conceive of having that much money, let alone working to save it. Consider "stealth wealth."
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Keep it on a need-to-know basis. Few, if any, people need to know.
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Welcome! Well, to answer your question - I'm an open book about a lot of stuff, but not money. I don't so much go in for the public disclosure of exact income or budgets or whatever. But much of my life is very open, and online.
Which brings me to my main reason for commenting: .1 acre, chickens, ducks and a garden? I want to read your blog! Please post the URL (or maybe PM me if you wanna keep it hush hush).
Good job paying of your house. Haters gonna hate and, honestly - it's Reddit, yo. 90% of Reddit is awesome and 10% is just horrid.
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No one gets all the numbers but we will talk concepts and timelines with like-minded good friends and family. Otherwise I do my best to fly under the radar. I do not need people's random resentment or jealousy, and it's very rare someone wants to change their financial life vs. just complaining about it.
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I think that most people are stuck in the matrix. They don't want to know what they could possibly become one day.
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Hi all! New here! I'm 32 and my husband and I recently paid off our 300K mortgage after 7 years. I posted about it on reddit and on my blog and...wow. Avalanche of vitriol. Someone linked to this blog and here I am! I wish I'd known about it sooner! We came to use a lot of the same techniques--because it just makes sense. We bought a place close to work so we could ride our bicycles. We spend very little on groceries or material items. We don't have cable. We have one, reliable, 15-year-old car. We make a lot of our own stuff, from bread to laundry detergent. We also made our 0.1 acre lot work for us, so we grow most of our own produce and have chickens and ducks for eggs. We still go on vacation, because experiences are important to us.
But how much do you all tell the people around you about your lifestyle and accomplishments? I don't think the people that know us directly are resentful, because they've seen how we live. But what about people that don't see your day-to-day? I mean, they think you must be rich, right? They get angry.
Do you just keep it to yourself? I thought I'd be helping people by sharing the techniques we used and how we saved, but I've gotten a ton of angry comments and some honest-to-God hate mail.
Post the link and your blog please! :)
Hate mail? Wow You know this simply jealousy right?
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I tell almost no one, because otherwise I turn into that guy that says, "I don't even HAVE a TV!".
Nobody likes that guy, because he's weird and probably gloating and also lying and weird all at the same time. Well, I actually am that guy.
My GF and my children know my plans, everyone else probably just has a vague idea that I'm unconventional. And weird.
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Hi all! New here! I'm 32 and my husband and I recently paid off our 300K mortgage after 7 years. I posted about it on reddit and on my blog and...wow. Avalanche of vitriol. Someone linked to this blog and here I am! I wish I'd known about it sooner! We came to use a lot of the same techniques--because it just makes sense. We bought a place close to work so we could ride our bicycles. We spend very little on groceries or material items. We don't have cable. We have one, reliable, 15-year-old car. We make a lot of our own stuff, from bread to laundry detergent. We also made our 0.1 acre lot work for us, so we grow most of our own produce and have chickens and ducks for eggs. We still go on vacation, because experiences are important to us.
But how much do you all tell the people around you about your lifestyle and accomplishments? I don't think the people that know us directly are resentful, because they've seen how we live. But what about people that don't see your day-to-day? I mean, they think you must be rich, right? They get angry.
Do you just keep it to yourself? I thought I'd be helping people by sharing the techniques we used and how we saved, but I've gotten a ton of angry comments and some honest-to-God hate mail.
I've told my mother and she's supportive. I've told my dad about the FI part, but not the RE part b/c I just don't think he'd get it/believe me (they're FI now but still working b/c that's what you do, you work). I told my best friend friend and she seemed interested but kind of jealous in that she doesn't seem to think that she could ever be in the same sitch, so I've gotten the feeling that I don't want to push bringing it up to her more.
I've hinted about very small things with my main group of friends (eg., not having student loan debt, investing every month) and have gotten an icy-cold-isn't-that-nice-for-you-but-impossible-for-us response, so I now avoid it. It's awkward though, because now when finances come up in general with these friends, I feel like they kind of box me out of the discussion. Even we're all sitting there together and they're looking to bitch about student loans or the inability for them to save to the group, they really don't want me to participate at all in the conversation. So, whatever, I just keep my advice/sitch/opinions to myself (although I actually could provide advice vs just bitching if they were open to it, but apparently that's really not what they want). I mean, they can show off their brand new basement renovation including mini kitchen and projector, new minivan, vacay pics, etc, but hint that you save any money ever and the room goes cold.
The fact that things have been so awkward around just the hinting of positive net worth type comments, makes me think that their heads would explode if they had an inkling of really where we are/what we're working toward. So, glad I dipped my toes in before sharing the full story.
We haven't mentioned it to any other family, friends, or acquaintances. Overall, IME, it's very rare for it to go over well. I do have my ears perked up for any hints from people that it's a topic they'd be interested in b/c one day I might find someone IRL that I can actually discuss it with.
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I saw that reddit personal finance post and was really disappointed by the negative response. (As an FYI, however, that subreddit tends to be pretty negative towards anyone who makes more than a median income, so don't take it personally.) Good for you guys! That's no small feat!
To answer your question -- I talk about it with my husband (duh), this forum and other similar blogs (Mad Fientist, etc), and my parents. My parents "get it" so there's no worries there. Sadly I've found that most people react similarly to how they reacted to you, so I just don't talk about it. I've heard the snide comments from friends about how saving for retirement is so out of reach and anyone who can save must be super rich, etc.
That just makes forums like this all the more meaningful, since you're surrounded by people who "get it."
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I tell people about the retiring early part, but in our case I'm more able to do it in a way that doesn't invite anger/scorn. I tell them that husband and I are retiring early because we can't tolerate the political situation in this country (true) and moving out of the country because it will be so much cheaper. I'm allowing people to have the impression that we'll be barely scraping by by doing so. That way, I don't have to talk about the mustachian part, because, frankly, my frugal friends are already frugal, and the others wouldn't be receptive.
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I've been preaching frugality for a long time and one person at my previous work actually took my advice and they are on the right path. I told her about this site too, don't know if she reads it.
My siblings know us as being cheap and driving old cars and I'm pretty sure they know we have money saved, but don't really know how much. They do know thanks to my blabber mouth SIL that we just got a big inheritance from my MIL, but I am trying to play down how much it is, since MIL was in the nursing home for 2 years. Don't want my business known by anyone really, not even my kids. Just hubby and I know how much we have. No one else needs to know!
Miss Prim
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Hi all! New here! I'm 32 and my husband and I recently paid off our 300K mortgage after 7 years. I posted about it on reddit and on my blog and...wow. Avalanche of vitriol. Someone linked to this blog and here I am! I wish I'd known about it sooner! We came to use a lot of the same techniques--because it just makes sense. We bought a place close to work so we could ride our bicycles. We spend very little on groceries or material items. We don't have cable. We have one, reliable, 15-year-old car. We make a lot of our own stuff, from bread to laundry detergent. We also made our 0.1 acre lot work for us, so we grow most of our own produce and have chickens and ducks for eggs. We still go on vacation, because experiences are important to us.
But how much do you all tell the people around you about your lifestyle and accomplishments? I don't think the people that know us directly are resentful, because they've seen how we live. But what about people that don't see your day-to-day? I mean, they think you must be rich, right? They get angry.
Do you just keep it to yourself? I thought I'd be helping people by sharing the techniques we used and how we saved, but I've gotten a ton of angry comments and some honest-to-God hate mail.
I've told my mother and she's supportive. I've told my dad about the FI part, but not the RE part b/c I just don't think he'd get it/believe me (they're FI now but still working b/c that's what you do, you work). I told my best friend friend and she seemed interested but kind of jealous in that she doesn't seem to think that she could ever be in the same sitch, so I've gotten the feeling that I don't want to push bringing it up to her more.
I've hinted about very small things with my main group of friends (eg., not having student loan debt, investing every month) and have gotten an icy-cold-isn't-that-nice-for-you-but-impossible-for-us response, so I now avoid it. It's awkward though, because now when finances come up in general with these friends, I feel like they kind of box me out of the discussion. Even we're all sitting there together and they're looking to bitch about student loans or the inability for them to save to the group, they really don't want me to participate at all in the conversation. So, whatever, I just keep my advice/sitch/opinions to myself (although I actually could provide advice vs just bitching if they were open to it, but apparently that's really not what they want). I mean, they can show off their brand new basement renovation including mini kitchen and projector, new minivan, vacay pics, etc, but hint that you save any money ever and the room goes cold.
The fact that things have been so awkward around just the hinting of positive net worth type comments, makes me think that their heads would explode if they had an inkling of really where we are/what we're working toward. So, glad I dipped my toes in before sharing the full story.
We haven't mentioned it to any other family, friends, or acquaintances. Overall, IME, it's very rare for it to go over well. I do have my ears perked up for any hints from people that it's a topic they'd be interested in b/c one day I might find someone IRL that I can actually discuss it with.
It sounds like your friends suck. It's one thing to be different, it's another thing for them to be hostile or exclude you.
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My closest friends are all interested in this subject as well.
I don't really tell accomplishments at all, since frankly a married couple in their 20s with a 6-digit net worth get... a bit of resentment from others in that age group (for all the reasons in this thread).
However, those of my very non-MMM friends who don't know net worth or savings rates absolutely know I don't spend a lot and aren't dumb.
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My three closest friends know the whole thing and are happy for me being FIRE. My Family doesn't get it and continues to ask me if I have thought about a next job. The rest of the world I tell that I am "Gainfully Unemployed". That seems to confuse most and shut them up.
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I mean, they can show off their brand new basement renovation including mini kitchen and projector, new minivan, vacay pics, etc, but hint that you save any money ever and the room goes cold.
It sounds like your friends suck. It's one thing to be different, it's another thing for them to be hostile or exclude you.
Classic crabs in a bucket syndrome.
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I don't talk retirement plans, in part because I'm unsure what I'll do when we reach FI.
I am known as "good with money" at work, though. Might be considered cheap if our building our own house wasn't well-known and much admired, if kind of incredulously. But it makes us weird independent hippies who are very environmentally conscious instead, and in a university environment, that's no bad thing even in the Deep South. In our home area, the weird hippie thing is read instead as country ingenuity, and the old school farmers definitely approve. Hell, we had a barn raising, and we help the neighbors.
So, I don't go into tremendous detail, but I don't hide things either. We do definitely allow people the opportunity to "read" our habits and behaviors in a way that makes sense in their own context, and that means it's read differently by different people.
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I tell no one.
My coworkers would treat me different and my immediate family believes working until 65 or 70 and keeping up with the jones in mass consumerism is the only way to live.
I tell my parents that i'm saving around 50% of my salary because it lets them know i'm responsible, unlike my siblings; but they have no idea i plan to walk away one day from the ball and chain of the cubicle and live the rest of my life in freedom.
Most people that know me just think i'm cheap and that's just fine.
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I had no hesitation telling family or friends. My parents are both 1st generation, and I learned a lot from watching their spending habits--so of course they're proud of me. And my friends are mostly like-minded. But yeaaaaaah, I will think twice before telling the internet again.
This is the blog post I made, which has a photo of the garden in winter (http://www.andreagstewart.com/blog/http:/www.andreagstewart.com/paying-off-a-mortgage-in-seven-years)
This is what I posted in r/personalfinance (http://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/394oas/paid_off_our_mortgage_in_seven_years/)
Erica, I love your blog! Mine is mostly for writing stuff. I used to run one over at suburbansustainability.com but I ended up having to drop it with everything else I'm trying to do. This is what my garden looks like right now (http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54319b44e4b0a1e94bdc26cd/t/55790093e4b007898ac5c51d/1433993366823/?format=1000w&storage=local). The empty space in the back between the green beans is where we harvested round 1 of potatoes. I love growing our own food! There's a lot of work when we're turning it over from winter to summer and vice versa, but once it's going, the maintenance isn't so bad. And it's all organic and very tasty. Toward the end of the season I get a little fatigued on certain food items (BEET LEAVES), but it's worth it!
I've gleaned some awesome new ideas from this site already. I don't necessarily want to retire super quickly so much as take a demotion in the not-too-distant future, and then go to part-time.
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My immediate family knows. They are proud of my savings but skeptical about the RE part of FIRE. (I myself have doubts about pulling it off, but refuse not to TRY.)
Everyone else just assumes I'm broke :)
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Congrats on achieving a major milestone. I read your blog post....lots of sacrifices. All your sacrifices have borne a big fruit now!!
My thoughts on the public scorn are: once your words are in the public domain, you will attract both good and bad....take the good stuff and try and ignore the bad stuff. Over time, the good stuff exceeds the bad.
Your post reminds me of a research study I once read which studies the relationship between income levels and happiness. The conclusion of the study was that it is not the absolute income level that matters for happiness...it is the relative income level with respect to your peer group that matters more for happiness. So, when you announce such a major milestone, it can make people in your peer group a bit unhappy...both those who do not have your privilege and those who thought you were not privileged enough :-) So, perhaps peer group reactions can be explained with this.
Congrats once again. Best of luck on the rest of the FI journey.
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I tell no one.
My coworkers would treat me different and my immediate family believes working until 65 or 70 and keeping up with the jones in mass consumerism is the only way to live.
I tell my parents that i'm saving around 50% of my salary because it lets them know i'm responsible, unlike my siblings; but they have no idea i plan to walk away one day from the ball and chain of the cubicle and live the rest of my life in freedom.
Most people that know me just think i'm cheap and that's just fine.
^^ I have posted here and other forums on this subject and have found over the years how incredibly weird people become when it comes to money issues. Coworkers and family members can be some of the worst to tell of your plans or your lifestyle for that matter.
Saving and investing has little to no interest to them, some even get angry. I talk only in general terms of retirement etc. and even then I keep the conversation very short.
Other family members have made very poor life choices over the years and now struggle and talk of how everyone else has "screwed" them. My elderly mother knows I have (some) money because she knows how hard I have worked my ass off over the years and saved...
Dances With Fire
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I don't tell anyone except my mom, because she is the only one supportive. Coworkers are the worse, I get the most idiotic replies from them so I stopped telling them about it.
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I had no hesitation telling family or friends. My parents are both 1st generation, and I learned a lot from watching their spending habits--so of course they're proud of me. And my friends are mostly like-minded. But yeaaaaaah, I will think twice before telling the internet again.
This is the blog post I made, which has a photo of the garden in winter (http://www.andreagstewart.com/blog/http:/www.andreagstewart.com/paying-off-a-mortgage-in-seven-years")
This is what I posted in r/personalfinance (http://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/394oas/paid_off_our_mortgage_in_seven_years/")
Erica, I love your blog! Mine is mostly for writing stuff. I used to run one over at suburbansustainability.com but I ended up having to drop it with everything else I'm trying to do. This is what my garden looks like right now (http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54319b44e4b0a1e94bdc26cd/t/55790093e4b007898ac5c51d/1433993366823/?format=1000w&storage=local). The empty space in the back between the green beans is where we harvested round 1 of potatoes. I love growing our own food! There's a lot of work when we're turning it over from winter to summer and vice versa, but once it's going, the maintenance isn't so bad. And it's all organic and very tasty. Toward the end of the season I get a little fatigued on certain food items (BEET LEAVES), but it's worth it!
I've gleaned some awesome new ideas from this site already. I don't necessarily want to retire super quickly so much as take a demotion in the not-too-distant future, and then go to part-time.
As a slight aside, Andrea, I just read your reddit post. While there are obviously some immature or uninformed feedback being thrown around in response, I would personally take all that as a good thing. You shared your real progress, and it created a discussion. That's a good thing.
The whole point of my sharing my experiences--someday when I do, after I've made real progress--will not be to gloat, but to pay forward the inspiration and knowledge that I got from reading Mr. Money Mustache and a few others such as Lacking Ambition, Jacob at ERE, and Thoreau. Some people won't be receptive to it, but I'd wager that even for those people it will still make them think about it and who knows where it will lead them eventually.
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Haters gonna hate. Just keep on rockin out! You are my hero! You are where I want to be in (according to my plan) 3 years and 3 months.
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Some people have real hang ups around money and work and seem to think that not working is bad for society in general so maybe that explains some of the negative comments. Many people seem to have a problem with financially successful people and want to find some type of shady explanation for why people have achieved their goals. Living below your means, saving and investing can't be the reason, you must have done something immoral to get your wealth!:D
I don't really tell people much at all about us, just that we want to retire early. I think most people don't find these matters as interesting as some of us on here.:P
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My sister knows. That's it. I haven't even shared w/ my parents b/c I'm very familiar with their reactions to other initiatives in my life. From others I would expect at least disbelief and skepticism- from some probably hostility. So, I keep it to myself.
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I don't share much, but I also assume there are some who might wonder/know. We take pretty nice vacations, drive decent vehicles, have several kids. We live in a somewhat older home. But I do think people know we save what we can. Plus, I stay at home. Great job paying off your home!! It's nice to have the freedom from a mortgage payment. Pure jealousy on the reddit board.
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Hi all! New here! I'm 32 and my husband and I recently paid off our 300K mortgage after 7 years. I posted about it on reddit and on my blog and...wow. Avalanche of vitriol. Someone linked to this blog and here I am! I wish I'd known about it sooner! We came to use a lot of the same techniques--because it just makes sense. We bought a place close to work so we could ride our bicycles. We spend very little on groceries or material items. We don't have cable. We have one, reliable, 15-year-old car. We make a lot of our own stuff, from bread to laundry detergent. We also made our 0.1 acre lot work for us, so we grow most of our own produce and have chickens and ducks for eggs. We still go on vacation, because experiences are important to us.
But how much do you all tell the people around you about your lifestyle and accomplishments? I don't think the people that know us directly are resentful, because they've seen how we live. But what about people that don't see your day-to-day? I mean, they think you must be rich, right? They get angry.
Do you just keep it to yourself? I thought I'd be helping people by sharing the techniques we used and how we saved, but I've gotten a ton of angry comments and some honest-to-God hate mail.
Hi Andrea,
Both sets of parents know that our house is paid for, and that's about it. Our situation is a little different from yours, though, in that we're older (mid-40s) and if people started finding out we were mortgage-free now, it wouldn't be such a huge deal. The kicker is that our home been paid off for a decade, thanks in part to a windfall my SO received. The decision to put most of it toward the house rather than investing was out of concern that the temptation to spend it would be too great. That, and family and friends coming out of the woodwork wanting money, gifts, loans, etc.
Our retirement-fund managers know our financial background. Every once in awhile, I update my parents on how much I/we have saved for retirement, because I know that showing responsibility makes them proud. For one or two of our well-off, fiscally responsible friends to know our situation wouldn't be a major concern, but otherwise it's not worth it to risk jealousy within our social circle.
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My parents, who are frugal themselves, know we put away "a lot" toward retirement and that we plan to retire earlier than average. They've are nothing but pleased about that news.
Now one else really knows. It isn't so much that I hide it. It's just not the type of thing that ever really comes up. When I read threads here about people being asked about finances, I'm always surprised. I've never asked a friend about her finances, and none have asked me. The only person who has ever asked is the family member who would be the last one we'd tell, because his hand would fly out in expectation. With him, lines like, "we don't have any extra money" or "we are okay but we certainly aren't rich" work well. And they are true. None of our money is "extra". It all has a purpose. That purpose might be helping grow our stache, or even buying a new pair of shoes. Likewise, we certainly aren't rich as I define it.
Honestly, I find discussion of finances to an non-financial crowd to be kind of off-putting. I guess I was just raised that money was a private matter. Thankfully, it seems most people in my life feel the same way. I have no idea if my friends have robust 401ks or are nearly paycheck to paycheck. I don't think my good friends would be resentful or anything--if I thought that little of them, they wouldn't be my friends. I just find it impolite to discuss finances in most circumstances. I would probably share with them a milestone like paying off my house, but even then it would only be those really close to me, who I trust and respect. And if wouldn't involved any specific numbers.
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Siblings and close friends know, haven't received any negative feedback. Most are frugal if not to the level I am. For non close friends, based on the neighborhood I live in wouldn't be able to tell I'm a cheap bastard.
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Hubby tends to tell people how nice it is to have a "sugar momma" while I tell everyone how nice it is to have a "sugar daddy"... that way everyone thinks the other spouse has some sort of windfall stash or something. And honestly, that's fine with us for them to think that. :)
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We've told no one about our full plan of early retirement, but I'll make an occassional comment to friends about investing, saving for retirement. Nothing specific, and no dollar amounts. Amongst our social circle, we're probably in the middle of the income range, some couples are easily pulling in +$200k, others around $50k.
We live pretty blatantly frugal lives - only have 1 car, fix up our house ourselves, no cable, go camping/stay in hostels, DIY most things in our life, so I wonder what people's reactions would be to the size of our stache. My mom was concerned about us potentially dropping to one income when my spouse changes jobs later this year, and I told her that we already live off of one income so it's no big deal. (We actually live off of LESS than one income.) She was shocked and asked what we did with the the rest of it. Save it? Why, yes of course we save it. I'm the 'baby' in the family, so it will probably blow everyone's mind when we hit FIRE in a few years, esp my oldest sibling who is somehow still paying off his undergraduate student loans.
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Hubby tends to tell people how nice it is to have a "sugar momma" while I tell everyone how nice it is to have a "sugar daddy"... that way everyone thinks the other spouse has some sort of windfall stash or something. And honestly, that's fine with us for them to think that. :)
Oh, this is cute! We do the same thing with each other, though not always within earshot of other people. ;)
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It sounds like your friends suck. It's one thing to be different, it's another thing for them to be hostile or exclude you.
Eh, whatever. This is the one issue that they exclude me from in the discussions. Part of it probably stems from the fact that we're all kind of over-achiever-types. So, IMO, they want to continue the narrative that they're "good with finances" b/c they don't have credit card debt, can basically buy want they want without issues, etc, and including me in the discussion forces them to face the fact that it might not be completely true that "no one can save anymore," etc. I don't think that they're alone in wanting to avoid facing the idea that they could be doing better at something.
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My original plan was to tell nobody. Just sort of reach my goal and then disappear.
And for most people I interact with that's how it will go.
The thing is, I'm pretty passionate about all this, and even if you don't go into the full blown super saver mode, the things I've learned through this process would be valuable information. I imagine that hearing me talk about personal finance is exactly as annoying as when I hear someone talk about their kids.
I can't help sharing it, but I try not to take it personally if they aren't interested. And as this is something I am passionate about, it's probably natural to drift away from people who aren't in line with this passion. Same as I've drifted away from those friends who had kids. They have a passion that I do not share at the moment. Likely we'll reconnect at some point as passions shift over time.
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We learned to keep it to ourselves for the most part except for my parents who are frugal and of course you all. When we started paying down debt quicker than our friends the reaction wasn't good. I'm pretty sure we lost one good friendship because of it.
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I haven't told many people the full details, except this forum and my boyfriend. I've talked to my parents and brothers and one sis-in-law about parts of it, and a couple people know some very vague plans. I wasn't planning on telling anyone about it besides my boyfriend but it excites me so much. It's my favorite topic and trying to keep those conversations between me and boyfriend (and this forum of course) is tough. Little pieces of info slip out when I get excited, especially when the topic comes up naturally.
My family generally knows I have a plan that involves me spending a lot more time with them in the summers, but they don't know the details of how that will happen. My mom does know a few of my numbers. I also had a good conversation about investing with my sis-in-law a few days ago and I'm glad they are getting on their feet. Everyone has responded very positively, but I'm careful not to bring it up with anyone without testing the waters first. I don't want negative reactions, but I also don't want to be that person who won't shut up about their favorite subject that no one else cares about.
I have no interest in telling my coworkers. They can keep thinking I will be here another 25-30 years. My friends are mostly in different phases of life than me. If finances came up in conversation I might bring it up, both otherwise I don't. If I'm dating someone new (poly) it tends to come up in the form of dreams, goals, and ambitions questions, but I generally limit my answers to something somewhat vague about alternative lifestyle. Never details about finances. I do talk about my dream of eternal Saturdays, but I'm sure they think I'm just bitching about work, not seriously working towards fixing the problem.
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Now that we've paid off our mortgage (two weeks ago! Woot!) my husband is telling most of our friends. We also have a ten-year plan (now eight-year) to achieve FI. I've told my parents and grandparents, and my husband has told some of our friends. The family was slightly incredulous until I told them I had had our plans and savings rate looked over by a financial planner. The friends' reactions have ranged from polite congratulations to polite incredulity. I think most of them will believe it when they see it.
My family is not particularly surprised (at least out loud), since my grandparents are hard-core savers combined with a live-to-work drive. That combined with some good fortune in farming and property investment enabled them to make the family fortune, so they know it's possible. It was important to me to inform them about our plans to make sure they knew I was not planning to live off their work. Hard work and independence are important values to my family, so I'm not sure how they feel about us planning to quit early, but so far there's been no blowback.
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Congrats on paying off the house! Woot.
We stay pretty quiet about finances. We're open about the fact that we were heavily in debt and that we're not any more, but we don't go into detail about how much we have stashed where. I have let my parents know how much we have in rough terms, just so they can stop worrying about us. We all went through some tough years, and my mom is a worrier, so I wanted her to have the peace of mind to know that things won't ever go back to how they were.
But with co-workers or friends? Nah. I have talked about MMM enough that hopefully they'll read up for themselves.
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Very quiet about it. Some close friends know that I'm a few years into a couple 15-year mortgages, which is a bit unusual around these parts because most buy as much house as they can using a 30-year mortgage. Just knowing that, a couple friends may have put two and two together. But my friends are not super-spendy by my area's standards. In fact, given how much I travel, they probably think I'm at least as spendy as they are. But the travel doesn't put much of a dent into my savings rate thanks to reward points hacking and backpacker lodging.
In any case, I agree that most people don't want to hear about it. For many, it's either uncouth or the height of boredom to sit around and talk about personal finances.
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I tell very few people. My boss and I have talked about it, but he is also FI and we have been friends and colleagues for a long time. Usually my other friends and colleagues laugh and talk about retiring at 75 if the conversation goes in this direction. Then we talk about how nice it is to drive a late model BMW and live in a 3200 square foot house with weekly maid service. :-)
DW knows of course since we are doing our best to income split. But none of our relatives do.
Heh, I still remember the odd looks I got at the Toyota dealership when I bought a new Yaris in 2008. They thought I had to get 2 car loans because I had one bank draft from my bank and a second from my broker. Stealth wealth is the way to go!
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OP - I just went to reddit and found your post. Good for you guys! I love reddit usually, but sometimes it sucks.
Anyway. My coworkers obviously know I bike to work, and I don't often go out with them for post-shift breakfast (night shift ftw!) or join in when they order takeout. Some of the younger ones know I plan to RE, and I've shared a little about my side hustles. Older coworkers, I say very little, because they generally are in a position where they'll be working for years still, and they're dismissive.
My family knows nothing; they think we're broke. I don't want them to ever know anything. They are mostly bad with money, and I don't want to end up being expected to support my parents when they can't work anymore (they're in their late 50's with zero savings, living paycheck to paycheck).
I'm fairly open with friends. If they have a problem with it, they're not my friend. :) I post MMM articles on FB, stuff like that.
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I find it that generally people don’t like to hear how well you are doing.
I don’t share anything with my friends and family except my parents.
They all know we are good with money, know how to save, invest etc.
But if they were to find out that we are FI and don’t need to work(we still do), it would not go well with them.
Obvious reason of course is jealousy and inability to save, be responsible with money, unwillingness to sacrifice etc.
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Congratulations to you and the others who have paid off their mortgages!
I'm 44, single, never married, no kids, and I've lived halfway across the world from my immediate family for more than 18 years. I starting saving for FIRE a year and a half ago.
Coworkers and friends - almost all married, married with children, or soon-to-be-married - talk about what's important to them, be it the house that they are building or renovating, their children, or whatever. I talk about what's important to me: not having a lot of useless and expensive crap in my life, walking to work most days, and investing what I can save as opposed to buying or paying off a property (property prices in my country are really high, both on their own and when compared to rental prices).
When I do mention something about having disposable income to save and invest, almost all of them simply dismiss it as a result of me not being married or living with anyone, and not having children. When I counter that for more than 10 years I haven't shared housing and other expenses with another income earner, that usually falls on deaf ears.
Earlier this year, for example, I was referred to a dietician and she gave me dietary guidelines that presumably include cooking for myself, which I had never done. Every one of my colleagues to whom I mentioned this thought I would simply HAVE to now buy a full-size oven and a stovetop or burners. It became a running joke in the office. Well, I didn't buy any appliances, I've been cooking for myself a little using my electric counter-top oven, and I've lost almost 20 pounds.
I've told my parents what I'm doing, but they're halfway across the world and we don't keep in touch too often. They don't ask me about it. They ask me about work. Me: "Work's great/fine/sucks. Anything else you want to talk about? No? OK. Goodbye."
My siblings, forget it. They haven't wanted to keep in touch with me for years, and I highly doubt me becoming FI sometime in the early 2020s would change that.
Funny enough, though, my parents, when I do speak with or hear from them, will mention my brother and sister moving into a new house, or my siblings' new business venture, or whatever. On the other hand, I simply can't imagine my parents telling my siblings that I realized a year and a half ago that I can save about 2/3 of my gross salary, and that means in just a few years, I might not have to work full-time.
Presumably, becoming FI would mean I could spend months at a time where they live, if I wanted to. I likely won't spend months at a time there, because my siblings would likely not make any effort to spend time with me while there.
Anyway, a few months ago, I started actively participating in a Facebook group for living financially smarter in my country. While a lot of people who post there do what I consider less-than-financially-smart things, it is also nice to see posts from people closer to my way of thinking. Especially those in the "I rent instead of paying a mortgage" camp. For most people - in this Facebook group and not, in this country and not, and also on the MMM forums - buying a property is thought of as almost a birthright. For whatever reason, I've never felt that way. I might consider it, when I'm FI, can afford to do it with a small mortgage that makes financial sense or without a mortgage altogether, and finding full-time employment in my profession is not an important factor in where I live.
So, thanks for starting and contributing to this thread. I've enjoyed reading it and writing this reply.
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My previous supervisor told me something years ago when I got the promotion to the job I've had for the last 16 years (I'd already worked here for 7 years and thought I had good relationships with all my coworkers). He said that most of my friends would be happy for me but that I should expect that some of my friends would not be happy and it might surprise me when that happened. He said "people want you to do well... they just don't want you to do better than they're doing."
I kind of poo-pooed that at the time thinking that surely all the people I liked at work would be happy. Wrong! There were only a couple of them but they made it very clear how unfair it was for me to be promoted and how I didn't deserve the job, etc. Wow. I was stunned.
Since then, I've thought of what he said many times and I think he's right. When people think you're doing better than they are, it can change a relationship.
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Um, I have the conversation with people who ask for advice or help. But mostly I keep it to myself.
Some of my friends are similar to me, in the crunchy way (I have an interest in things like chickens and growing food, etc., but not the time right now), and the DIY stuff. We talk about that. But I have had better employment than them, so we don't talk money.
Some of my friends just have a buttload more money. Think doctors. So we dance around the money issue a bit.
Some of my closest friends - we have a lot in common but they spend more. They are excited to get a $100 shirt for $10 (an actual conversation), whereas I'm just trying to not buy any shirts. They have said things like "I am trying to be frugal like you, I bought a groupon for a vacation!" (that they didn't use). When money comes in they pay down their credit cards and HELOCs, wonder how they can afford to replace the roof, but go out to concerts and fancy dinners a lot.
I have a hard time relating to family because we make so much more money.
I have a hard time relating to a lot of friends because we spend less money.
Some of my "poorer" friends can't relate to our incomes. Our neighbors are a single income family with 2 kids. They bought at a much better time than we did. The husband and wife are SUPER handy (in the way that we were before kids). They are fixing the roof themselves because they cannot AFFORD $10k to replace it like we did. I almost wish we could switch places - I miss having the time to do those things.
Anyway, going to something I mentioned on the overheard at work thread - at almost 45, I am starting to see how precarious employment gets in your middle ages, so I'm glad I have a nest egg. I have had actual conversations at work about this.
Probably the only person we talk to is our financial planner (go ahead, facepunch, I can take it. I like him). We had a review and he said "congrats to surpassing $1M". Oh, boy, that's only with you. My husband's 401k is half a million already.
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I've hinted about very small things with my main group of friends (eg., not having student loan debt, investing every month) and have gotten an icy-cold-isn't-that-nice-for-you-but-impossible-for-us response, so I now avoid it. It's awkward though, because now when finances come up in general with these friends, I feel like they kind of box me out of the discussion. Even we're all sitting there together and they're looking to bitch about student loans or the inability for them to save to the group, they really don't want me to participate at all in the conversation. So, whatever, I just keep my advice/sitch/opinions to myself (although I actually could provide advice vs just bitching if they were open to it, but apparently that's really not what they want). I mean, they can show off their brand new basement renovation including mini kitchen and projector, new minivan, vacay pics, etc, but hint that you save any money ever and the room goes cold.
My first experience with this when I moved to California -
a coworker (later a boss), mentioned to me "you don't understand, I have DEBT. Serious college DEBT." I said "well, I borrowed a little money too, but really I paid for college by joining ROTC and spending 5 years in in the Navy." He says "Oh, I could never do THAT." Well, there you go.
On the flip side, his house cost <1/3 of mine. Timing...and his parents gave him the down payment.
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I had no hesitation telling family or friends. My parents are both 1st generation, and I learned a lot from watching their spending habits--so of course they're proud of me. And my friends are mostly like-minded. But yeaaaaaah, I will think twice before telling the internet again.
This is the blog post I made, which has a photo of the garden in winter (http://www.andreagstewart.com/blog/http:/www.andreagstewart.com/paying-off-a-mortgage-in-seven-years")
This is what I posted in r/personalfinance (http://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/394oas/paid_off_our_mortgage_in_seven_years/")
Erica, I love your blog! Mine is mostly for writing stuff. I used to run one over at suburbansustainability.com but I ended up having to drop it with everything else I'm trying to do. This is what my garden looks like right now (http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54319b44e4b0a1e94bdc26cd/t/55790093e4b007898ac5c51d/1433993366823/?format=1000w&storage=local). The empty space in the back between the green beans is where we harvested round 1 of potatoes. I love growing our own food! There's a lot of work when we're turning it over from winter to summer and vice versa, but once it's going, the maintenance isn't so bad. And it's all organic and very tasty. Toward the end of the season I get a little fatigued on certain food items (BEET LEAVES), but it's worth it!
I've gleaned some awesome new ideas from this site already. I don't necessarily want to retire super quickly so much as take a demotion in the not-too-distant future, and then go to part-time.
I love the garden!
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That topic's been discussed a lot around here, but I found that it's better not to tell too much to people, if they are not likely minded.
Let alone the idea of FI and RE, I've tried the idea of telling some friends about "building a safety stash, leaving the corporate world, and run my own side business". People's replies were in general enough for me to not even mention that my stash would actually cover everything and that I wouldn't technically need to work.
Got the same kind of reply from friends *and* family ( my experience on my blog here (http://howtoretireearly.net/when-friends-and-family-just-dont-get-it-part-2/) )
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DW & I haven't told a soul out our RE plans, and we definitely don't share our net worth info ... not even my frugal parents.
I tend to answer questions regarding our frugality with "We have a pretty big mortgage that we are trying to pay off". That's going to be tough to say when it's actually paid off. I'm almost convinced to drag the mortgage out longer in order to keep that excuse in my pocket ... almost :)
Anyways, welcome to the forum! I'm relatively new here and amazed by the absolute wealth of information shared freely by members here. This place is awesome.
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Um, I have the conversation with people who ask for advice or help. But mostly I keep it to myself.
In my experience, I've literally never had one of my family or friends ask me for help or financial advice. Has that been your experience, too, or no? They will complain about money, but then when I try to transition into talking about actual solutions or recommendations, their eyes glaze over. It could be that I'm just hellaboring... Does this happen to anybody else?
I'm really big on saving money on groceries, and just not shopping. So when I mention that I just set a budget and try to stick to it, I think that resonates.
Like the friend who did the vacation groupon - we actually don't travel 1/3 as much as they do. But when we do, I look in advance, look for condos instead of hotels. If I can't find a reasonable condo I look for a hotel with a fridge and microwave. But I'm not interested in downgrading to a motel 6.
Our friends stopped where we were vacationing on a whim. They couldn't get a place in our hotel/ condo because they were booked, but they stayed nearby and came over. On one hand, it was frugal because we all hung out by the pool instead of paying for entertainment. The food and drinks at the pool were reasonably priced (though my family only bought a small item, because we ate in the condo). I think they got a bit of the picture because they joined us for dinner in the condo and ate some of our stuff we had leftover from camping.
On the other hand, they didn't have swimgear. So, what would have I done in that situation? Probably gone to Kmart, Walmart, or Target and got some cheap stuff. They spent $150-200 on really nice suits.
I made it a goal to spend $0 on clothing this year for me. Right now I'm at $10 for new undies. We are heading home for a couple of weeks in the summer, probably swim in the lake. I could really use a new 2-piece suit, so I can get in and out easily. I have mis-matching pieces. I have two bottoms that fit, some board shorts that are too big. I have two tops - one is too small (dang ribcage and shoulders got broader after baby #2) and one that's a little big. So, what am I going to do?
I'm going to take the bottoms that fit, the top that's a little big, and my $20 one-piece that I swim in at the Y and just DEAL with it.
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I'm doing my best to adhere to "stealth wealth," with a weird situation.
I'm a musician that [(used to, as of last Friday) :-D] have a day job. All my friends are struggling artists and musicians, either scraping by on small grants, lessons or gigs/sales in their arts specialty or in low-pay jobs like barista/retail.
I was lucky to accidentally pivot a hobby into a median-plus income job and saved my tail off.
I can't tell any of my art friends. I don't know how they would relate, but my guess is it could adversely affect our relationship. So I am currently lying to them all. ("My job sucks! We were busy today! TGIF!").
The worst (and I have no idea how to deal with it) is my ex-BF/BF (boyfriend and best friend) is extremely poor, on disability, does odd jobs and absolutely can not know that I am FI. (what a can of worms that would open). It wasn't hard to keep under wraps while I was working, but now I'm RE'd. He doesn't know. He occasionally stays over at my place and then offers a ride to work. This is pretty crazy, but until I figure out how to deal with this situation I am *faking* going to work on the one (sometimes two) days per week he stays over to protect my secret! (I even procured a duplicate badge before I quit so it would look right). He drops me off, I get a coffee downtown, then jump on a bus for home.
I have to figure out a solution, because that can't last forever. :-/
Anyone else trying to obfuscate their situation from a very-close person in their life? Or is my situation just unique and stoopid? Ugh. :-/
Other than that silly exercise, RE is great, so far!
-The Pigeon
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Ha, I saw your reddit post the other day and there are still people referring to you as crazy lunatics whose experience applies to nobody. Steer clear of /r/personalfinance and head over to /r/financialindependence. That's much more up your alley. The personal finance guys tend to want to live fancy and in bigger cities but "responsibly" rather than on consumer credit.
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My wife and I are well off due to years of saving and investing. Most of our family, all very nice people, live paycheck to paycheck or close to it. We do not share our financial situation with them. If I told some of them we are debt free and don't have to work they would either not believe me or have a stroke. It would also cause resentment and jealousy. When I visit family I drive my 13 year old Ford truck and wear my Goodwill shirts. Everyone loves me because I'm so down to earth. We find ways to share our good fortune with the family without giving away any secrets. If you have any wealth, it's probably best to be discreet.
This was very well written, and for the most part captures our experiences with frugality/saving/investing and FIRE right down to the 13 year old Ford and Goodwill threads...ok, my Ford is only 12 years old...
My sister probably knows the most (including hard numbers) because she's trying to learn herself. I also know exactly what her husband makes, saves for retirement, and their net worth (helped her upload stuff to mint).
Other than that, we keep our mouths shut. Like the guy above said, resentment and jealousy are things you want to avoid even though you absolutely don't deserve it!
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I am *faking* going to work on the one (sometimes two) days per week he stays over to protect my secret! (I even procured a duplicate badge before I quit so it would look right). He drops me off, I get a coffee downtown, then jump on a bus for home.
I have to figure out a solution, because that can't last forever. :-/
Anyone else trying to obfuscate their situation from a very-close person in their life? Or is my situation just unique and stoopid? Ugh. :-/
Other than that silly exercise, RE is great, so far!
-The Pigeon
That is crazy, can you pretend you got fired not actually FIRE? Pretend to go on unemployment and struggle like all your friends. Then at least you don't have to wake up in the morning to go to 'pretend work.'
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Um, I have the conversation with people who ask for advice or help. But mostly I keep it to myself.
In my experience, I've literally never had one of my family or friends ask me for help or financial advice. Has that been your experience, too, or no? They will complain about money, but then when I try to transition into talking about actual solutions or recommendations, their eyes glaze over. It could be that I'm just hellaboring... Does this happen to anybody else?
+1
My family and my friends never ask for financial advice, but dont complain or ask for money.
All of them making 100K + per household and yet I am pretty sure having hard time to save anything.
When I start conversation about ideas how to save, invest etc they would change subject and generally dont want to talk about it.
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I'm doing my best to adhere to "stealth wealth," with a weird situation.
I'm a musician that [(used to, as of last Friday) :-D] have a day job. All my friends are struggling artists and musicians, either scraping by on small grants, lessons or gigs/sales in their arts specialty or in low-pay jobs like barista/retail.
I was lucky to accidentally pivot a hobby into a median-plus income job and saved my tail off.
I can't tell any of my art friends. I don't know how they would relate, but my guess is it could adversely affect our relationship. So I am currently lying to them all. ("My job sucks! We were busy today! TGIF!").
The worst (and I have no idea how to deal with it) is my ex-BF/BF (boyfriend and best friend) is extremely poor, on disability, does odd jobs and absolutely can not know that I am FI. (what a can of worms that would open). It wasn't hard to keep under wraps while I was working, but now I'm RE'd. He doesn't know. He occasionally stays over at my place and then offers a ride to work. This is pretty crazy, but until I figure out how to deal with this situation I am *faking* going to work on the one (sometimes two) days per week he stays over to protect my secret! (I even procured a duplicate badge before I quit so it would look right). He drops me off, I get a coffee downtown, then jump on a bus for home.
I have to figure out a solution, because that can't last forever. :-/
Anyone else trying to obfuscate their situation from a very-close person in their life? Or is my situation just unique and stoopid? Ugh. :-/
Other than that silly exercise, RE is great, so far!
-The Pigeon
How can you possibly be close friends with someone in whom you have so little respect?
I think that what a lot of these threads boil down to. Family is different in that you can't choose them. But you pick your friends. I choose to surround myself with people who I trust and respect. And as a result, they are happy with me to the extent that they are aware of my situation, and I have no doubts they'd be happy if they knew more (but I don't discuss as, like I mentioned before, I find discussing money in most situations to be rude.) I truly can't imagine keeping someone in my life if I felt so sure they would react badly to my happy situation that I felt the need to fake an job!
Friends know of my travels around Europe, and they are happy that I'm getting this amazing experience. They probably couldn't afford it (especially because we travel somewhat cheaply and they probably don't), in part because they have different lives full of kids and karate lessons and dance classes. But they are self-aware enough to know that my life is different than theirs because of our choices, and that their choices and mine all have upsides and downsides. And we are all happy for each other for our successes and joys, and sad for the failures and stresses. And that's *why* they are my friends. If I didn't trust them enough to be happy, or respect them enough not to lie, they wouldn't be.
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My wife and internet forums like this. My parents know i am frugal but i have not told them my long term plans. My in laws i dunno, that's up to my wife and she hasn't said much to them. My mom once told me that my sister thinks i am the millionaire next door and my response was not yet.
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I'm doing my best to adhere to "stealth wealth," with a weird situation.
I'm a musician that [(used to, as of last Friday) :-D] have a day job. All my friends are struggling artists and musicians, either scraping by on small grants, lessons or gigs/sales in their arts specialty or in low-pay jobs like barista/retail.
I was lucky to accidentally pivot a hobby into a median-plus income job and saved my tail off.
I can't tell any of my art friends. I don't know how they would relate, but my guess is it could adversely affect our relationship. So I am currently lying to them all. ("My job sucks! We were busy today! TGIF!").
The worst (and I have no idea how to deal with it) is my ex-BF/BF (boyfriend and best friend) is extremely poor, on disability, does odd jobs and absolutely can not know that I am FI. (what a can of worms that would open). It wasn't hard to keep under wraps while I was working, but now I'm RE'd. He doesn't know. He occasionally stays over at my place and then offers a ride to work. This is pretty crazy, but until I figure out how to deal with this situation I am *faking* going to work on the one (sometimes two) days per week he stays over to protect my secret! (I even procured a duplicate badge before I quit so it would look right). He drops me off, I get a coffee downtown, then jump on a bus for home.
I have to figure out a solution, because that can't last forever. :-/
Anyone else trying to obfuscate their situation from a very-close person in their life? Or is my situation just unique and stoopid? Ugh. :-/
Other than that silly exercise, RE is great, so far!
-The Pigeon
OMG.
By the way, I love "The Pigeon Finds a Hot Dog"
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The worst (and I have no idea how to deal with it) is my ex-BF/BF (boyfriend and best friend) is extremely poor, on disability, does odd jobs and absolutely can not know that I am FI. (what a can of worms that would open). It wasn't hard to keep under wraps while I was working, but now I'm RE'd. He doesn't know. He occasionally stays over at my place and then offers a ride to work. This is pretty crazy, but until I figure out how to deal with this situation I am *faking* going to work on the one (sometimes two) days per week he stays over to protect my secret! (I even procured a duplicate badge before I quit so it would look right). He drops me off, I get a coffee downtown, then jump on a bus for home.
This is pretty crazy. You should contact a movie producer to make a movie out of this.
In all seriousness, good luck finding a solution :/
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This is pretty crazy. You should contact a movie producer to make a movie out of this.
In all seriousness, good luck finding a solution :/
If you think that's crazy... You don't want to know my plane-journey-in-disguise story, then. The movie guy might! Haha. (That story I'm taking to my grave) ;-)
Re:the fake work--yes, it's nuts. But it's my first week of RE, and I just need to buy some time to sort it out. :-/
-pij
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I'm doing my best to adhere to "stealth wealth," with a weird situation.
I'm a musician that [(used to, as of last Friday) :-D] have a day job. All my friends are struggling artists and musicians, either scraping by on small grants, lessons or gigs/sales in their arts specialty or in low-pay jobs like barista/retail.
I was lucky to accidentally pivot a hobby into a median-plus income job and saved my tail off.
I can't tell any of my art friends. I don't know how they would relate, but my guess is it could adversely affect our relationship. So I am currently lying to them all. ("My job sucks! We were busy today! TGIF!").
The worst (and I have no idea how to deal with it) is my ex-BF/BF (boyfriend and best friend) is extremely poor, on disability, does odd jobs and absolutely can not know that I am FI. (what a can of worms that would open). It wasn't hard to keep under wraps while I was working, but now I'm RE'd. He doesn't know. He occasionally stays over at my place and then offers a ride to work. This is pretty crazy, but until I figure out how to deal with this situation I am *faking* going to work on the one (sometimes two) days per week he stays over to protect my secret! (I even procured a duplicate badge before I quit so it would look right). He drops me off, I get a coffee downtown, then jump on a bus for home.
I have to figure out a solution, because that can't last forever. :-/
Anyone else trying to obfuscate their situation from a very-close person in their life? Or is my situation just unique and stoopid? Ugh. :-/
Other than that silly exercise, RE is great, so far!
-The Pigeon
OMG, that's crazy! Why don't you just get a "new job" and work from home? My plan is to keep my current business, but to work from home 100% of the time. I really don't think telling people I'm RE would ever work unless I"m over 70, so whenever it does actually happen, I fully intend to keep "working from home". The upside is that whenever I want to get out of going somewhere, I can always pull the old "traveling for work".
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Congrats on the house payoff, and welcome to MMM!!
I probably overshare too much, and am going to try to stop. ;) I don't talk about incomes or exact dollar amounts saved, but I talk about my plans to retire early, "by age 50" (but likely earlier than that), and how we make choices that are generally frugal (living close to work, in a cheap apartment, driving older cars, owning almost nothing "fancy" at all), which allows us to do fun stuff (vacations, concerts, good food). We just got back from a trip to Europe in May. We were also in Europe last summer. It's going to be a few years before we can do anything like that again (husband in grad school and will be job hunting when he graduates next year), but I'm sure it looks to friends/family that we are rolling in money. The fact is, our monthly expenses are just really low and our incomes are healthy, with no debt.
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I love your dog!
Skimming the reddit post, I think it is less vitriol and more personal finance nerds wanting details.
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I don't really share my plans with anyone. Most people find talking about money/finance etc. to be boring so I never bring it up.
My friends do have a pretty decent idea of how much money I make so occasionally when I say something like, "I don't want to do X or buy Y because I'm trying to save money right now" they will respond with something like, "Come on, I know you're making a lot of money," and I'll deflect it by saying something like, "Yeah, but honestly most if it goes into retirement or my house or taxes and stuff."
People usually aren't curious enough to ask questions beyond that.
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Welcome and congrats on the mortgage!
We are just starting to talk about it because we are reaching some major milestones this year and it feels amazing ( 81% savings rate, 6 years to FIRE, 2 years to mortgage payoff, etc). We tend to not talk about our accomplishments but our goals, mostly to avoid anger/jeolously/requests for handouts.
My choice would be to scream it from the mountaintops and share the knowledge with every stranger i ever meet because it feels so awesome to be free from the burdens of consumerism (BE FREE PEOPLE, BE FREE!!!!), but I am playing it by ear right now. Sometimes i bring it up if the conversation is right or someone asks me, sometimes i bite my tongue so hard it could bleed. I think in the long run though i'm going to try to ignore the hate and get others on board if i can.
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I'm doing my best to adhere to "stealth wealth," with a weird situation.
I'm a musician that [(used to, as of last Friday) :-D] have a day job. All my friends are struggling artists and musicians, either scraping by on small grants, lessons or gigs/sales in their arts specialty or in low-pay jobs like barista/retail.
I was lucky to accidentally pivot a hobby into a median-plus income job and saved my tail off.
I can't tell any of my art friends. I don't know how they would relate, but my guess is it could adversely affect our relationship. So I am currently lying to them all. ("My job sucks! We were busy today! TGIF!").
The worst (and I have no idea how to deal with it) is my ex-BF/BF (boyfriend and best friend) is extremely poor, on disability, does odd jobs and absolutely can not know that I am FI. (what a can of worms that would open). It wasn't hard to keep under wraps while I was working, but now I'm RE'd. He doesn't know. He occasionally stays over at my place and then offers a ride to work. This is pretty crazy, but until I figure out how to deal with this situation I am *faking* going to work on the one (sometimes two) days per week he stays over to protect my secret! (I even procured a duplicate badge before I quit so it would look right). He drops me off, I get a coffee downtown, then jump on a bus for home.
I have to figure out a solution, because that can't last forever. :-/
Anyone else trying to obfuscate their situation from a very-close person in their life? Or is my situation just unique and stoopid? Ugh. :-/
Other than that silly exercise, RE is great, so far!
-The Pigeon
This is actually kinda sad. I'm trying to imagine how anyone can be this close to someone (that they occasionally stay over and/or are considered "best friend"), yet at the same time lacks basic trust in them and maintains secrecy about such a significant aspect of your life.
Weird.
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Um, I have the conversation with people who ask for advice or help. But mostly I keep it to myself.
In my experience, I've literally never had one of my family or friends ask me for help or financial advice. Has that been your experience, too, or no? They will complain about money, but then when I try to transition into talking about actual solutions or recommendations, their eyes glaze over. It could be that I'm just hellaboring... Does this happen to anybody else?
I was known as the one to go to at two schools, plus my mom brags a lot on my knowledge so I helped some of her coworkers. I've helped set up IRAs, determine how much to go in. Referred people to here for sofi, helped people set up payment plans for student loans etc. I was known to be frugal but we rarely talked numbers just the cheapest/best way to do something.
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In my experience, I've literally never had one of my family or friends ask me for help or financial advice. Has that been your experience, too, or no? They will complain about money, but then when I try to transition into talking about actual solutions or recommendations, their eyes glaze over. It could be that I'm just hellaboring... Does this happen to anybody else?
Yes.
GF's sister is really bad with money an routinely finds herself in tough spots. GF would try to help but eventually gave up saying, "When she's ready to change, she knows she can come to me." or something like that. I guess that's probably the best approach to take.
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My mom once told me that my sister thinks i am the millionaire next door and my response was not yet.
This cracked me up!
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Almost everyone who knows me, knows my plans. Only my parents know the details of my net worth and income, but even work acquaintances know that I want to retire early. It usually came up when I stopped drinking at happy hours and had to explain that no, I wasn't pregnant, and no, I wasn't an alcoholic, I mainly wanted to save money. (Half the time this resulted in someone offering me a drink, which I would refuse and end up going into my other reasons for quitting.)
Reactions run the gamut, but most people are a mix of amused, encouraging, and disbelieving. Honestly, most people are much more shocked that I gave up alcohol and coffee. That really needles people for some reason.
I want to freelance as a PF coach, specializing in women with student loans or consumer debt, so I will freely talk about my plans when the topic of money or jobs arises. My first three pro bono clients only came about because I was talking about frugality and saving with friends and they asked me for help.
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My mom once told me that my sister thinks i am the millionaire next door and my response was not yet.
My own mother said this to me. I told her to read that book. It's next on her list!
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Close family I tell everything. My parents and siblings know my hourly pay and exact savings plans. I know my siblings' too. We just tend to share this stuff.
Close friends I tell mostly everything, too, but only when the topics arise (less often than family).
Regular friends I tell more vague information and goal outlines to, usually only when specifically asked.
Co-workers and acquaintances I actively avoid relating financial information to and I tend to expect them to do the same.
I find that the less close you are to someone, the more tension financial talk (especially anything interpreted as boasting) will tend to cause in the long run, so I meter accordingly.
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I'm doing my best to adhere to "stealth wealth," with a weird situation.
I'm a musician that [(used to, as of last Friday) :-D] have a day job. All my friends are struggling artists and musicians, either scraping by on small grants, lessons or gigs/sales in their arts specialty or in low-pay jobs like barista/retail.
I was lucky to accidentally pivot a hobby into a median-plus income job and saved my tail off.
I can't tell any of my art friends. I don't know how they would relate, but my guess is it could adversely affect our relationship. So I am currently lying to them all. ("My job sucks! We were busy today! TGIF!").
The worst (and I have no idea how to deal with it) is my ex-BF/BF (boyfriend and best friend) is extremely poor, on disability, does odd jobs and absolutely can not know that I am FI. (what a can of worms that would open). It wasn't hard to keep under wraps while I was working, but now I'm RE'd. He doesn't know. He occasionally stays over at my place and then offers a ride to work. This is pretty crazy, but until I figure out how to deal with this situation I am *faking* going to work on the one (sometimes two) days per week he stays over to protect my secret! (I even procured a duplicate badge before I quit so it would look right). He drops me off, I get a coffee downtown, then jump on a bus for home.
I have to figure out a solution, because that can't last forever. :-/
Anyone else trying to obfuscate their situation from a very-close person in their life? Or is my situation just unique and stoopid? Ugh. :-/
Other than that silly exercise, RE is great, so far!
-The Pigeon
Wow, Pigeon, you have got to tell him SOME approximation of the truth. The hoops you are jumping through are crazy.
How about "worked sucked and I couldn't take it anymore so I quit!" Tell him you have a little bit saved so you'll coast for a while/focus on your music/other serious hobby. IIRC you're partnered, so after a while you can just say it's tight but you can get by on spouse's earnings (or "contract work"/"freelancing").
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Um, I have the conversation with people who ask for advice or help. But mostly I keep it to myself.
In my experience, I've literally never had one of my family or friends ask me for help or financial advice. Has that been your experience, too, or no? They will complain about money, but then when I try to transition into talking about actual solutions or recommendations, their eyes glaze over. It could be that I'm just hellaboring... Does this happen to anybody else?
After my financial "savvy" came out, I wound up helping both of my roommates with their finances -- as in, we sat down and spent hours going through their numbers/situation and figuring out the best way to budget, pay down debt, and save/invest. I'll disclose whatever details I feel is appropriate to set a good example (e.g. "I keep six to twelve months of expenses for an emergency fund", "I max out my 401(k) and Roth IRA", or "I spend less than half my salary"), but I don't disclose my actual net worth because, well, I don't want to get murdered in my sleep. :)
I try to keep much more mum at work, though, mostly because I wouldn't want to compromise opportunities for career advancement or spook my managers. But I love most of my co-workers and I'm willing to help them out too, albeit slightly more discretely. Like, recently I attended an HR workshop about changes to our 401(k) plan, and saw one of my co-workers also there. We chatted afterwards, and I helped him choose investments in his 401(k) (I recommended low-cost Vanguard index funds, naturally :D), and I also made him an asset allocation/rebalancing spreadsheet.
When people kvetch in general, though, they're mostly blowing off steam or looking for a sympathetic ear, not asking for help or an itemized list of facepunches for everything they're doing "wrong". If they don't bite after a brief overture, I just move on. I don't want to come across as pushy or bragging. This forum is my main outlet, and that's fine.
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I am *faking* going to work on the one (sometimes two) days per week he stays over to protect my secret! (I even procured a duplicate badge before I quit so it would look right). He drops me off, I get a coffee downtown, then jump on a bus for home.
I have to figure out a solution, because that can't last forever. :-/
Anyone else trying to obfuscate their situation from a very-close person in their life? Or is my situation just unique and stoopid? Ugh. :-/
Other than that silly exercise, RE is great, so far!
-The Pigeon
That is crazy, can you pretend you got fired not actually FIRE? Pretend to go on unemployment and struggle like all your friends. Then at least you don't have to wake up in the morning to go to 'pretend work.'
this is different but not crazy, consider the wacos that have two wives and dont tell, this is just trying to not hurt others. if i was fire i could see myself doing the same. might bring books or mathmatical equations to work on to pass the time though at the local starbucks.
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I'm doing my best to adhere to "stealth wealth," with a weird situation.
I'm a musician that [(used to, as of last Friday) :-D] have a day job. All my friends are struggling artists and musicians, either scraping by on small grants, lessons or gigs/sales in their arts specialty or in low-pay jobs like barista/retail.
I was lucky to accidentally pivot a hobby into a median-plus income job and saved my tail off.
I can't tell any of my art friends. I don't know how they would relate, but my guess is it could adversely affect our relationship. So I am currently lying to them all. ("My job sucks! We were busy today! TGIF!").
The worst (and I have no idea how to deal with it) is my ex-BF/BF (boyfriend and best friend) is extremely poor, on disability, does odd jobs and absolutely can not know that I am FI. (what a can of worms that would open). It wasn't hard to keep under wraps while I was working, but now I'm RE'd. He doesn't know. He occasionally stays over at my place and then offers a ride to work. This is pretty crazy, but until I figure out how to deal with this situation I am *faking* going to work on the one (sometimes two) days per week he stays over to protect my secret! (I even procured a duplicate badge before I quit so it would look right). He drops me off, I get a coffee downtown, then jump on a bus for home.
I have to figure out a solution, because that can't last forever. :-/
Anyone else trying to obfuscate their situation from a very-close person in their life? Or is my situation just unique and stoopid? Ugh. :-/
Other than that silly exercise, RE is great, so far!
-The Pigeon
This is actually kinda sad. I'm trying to imagine how anyone can be this close to someone (that they occasionally stay over and/or are considered "best friend"), yet at the same time lacks basic trust in them and maintains secrecy about such a significant aspect of your life.
Weird.
It is sad but it's really hard to go against your own click. She lives in the People's Republic of San Francisco for God's sake. Just when and how she comes out of the closet has to be her call. BTW, it's not that unusual. In his book on military retirement Nord recounts how one service member suited up and left for work weekdays after retirement so as not to freak out the kids.
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But how much do you all tell the people around you about your lifestyle and accomplishments? I don't think the people that know us directly are resentful, because they've seen how we live. But what about people that don't see your day-to-day? I mean, they think you must be rich, right? They get angry.
Do you just keep it to yourself? I thought I'd be helping people by sharing the techniques we used and how we saved...
I've been blogging for nearly five years (and writing for a decade before that). I've started doing more podcast and video appearances, too. As I've become more public, I've started to share more of the numbers like "25% tax bracket" and "accredited investor". I'm not ready to go into detailed updates like J. Money's Million Dollar Club (http://www.budgetsaresexy.com/2008/04/my-millionaire-to-do-list/) but that's still on my radar.
First, of course, you're not going to flaunt it (let alone make a target of yourself).
Second, it's worth highlighting the mistakes that you made enroute your lifestyle and accomplishments. Even if people think you're lucky (or privileged) they'll still appreciate your self-deprecating screwups.
Third, there's nothing to apologize for. You didn't become a millionaire by working at Goldman Sachs, let alone breeding kittens for fur coats. You worked your assets off and saved like crazy, just like anyone else would if they shared your same motivations. You gave up things that had no value for you (whether that's a daily Starbucks or a $2M McMansion) and aligned your spending with your values (like seven-year mortgages).
Finally, there are some socially-acceptable statements that can help you determine how much your listeners want to hear:
"We live a beach-bum lifestyle so we're doing fine on our savings."
"We're taking a few months off to spend more time doing the things that are important to us."
"Yeah, we're rich by society's standards, but in this case our money has to last the rest of our lives. If we spent like we were rich then we'd be poor by 2019."
Eventually that might morph into:
"Well, we lowered our expenses and boosted our savings rate to over 50%, and today we're following the 4% SWR."
and you could have a more detailed conversation to share your techniques. But 90% of the people you meet will have moved on before that point. They might need your help, but they're not yet ready to want it. When the time comes, they know where to find you.
... but I've gotten a ton of angry comments and some honest-to-God hate mail.
You could look at that a couple of ways.
First, you're a blogger. If you're going to stay a blogger then you'll develop a thick skin.
Those angry comments and hate mail are directed at you because your writing was powerful enough to get those people off their butts and inspire them to compose their commentary. (Otherwise you'd never hear from them.) Take it as a compliment.
They're also boosting your blog's popularity on SEO and search engines. They might even be clicking on your ads-- so you're earning from their anger!
I suspect that any thoughtful reader of their comments would soon discount their hostility and pay more attention to your reading.
I've attracted some hardcore trolls over the years who have figured out my name and my home address. None of them have ever mustered up the effort to contact me by e-mail or phone, let alone in person. I've met one of them at two different conferences now, and each time he's studiously avoided eye contact-- let alone conflict. In all but the most unpredictable and rare circumstances, the people who are sending you angry comments and hate mail will not do anything more than that.
I'm doing my best to adhere to "stealth wealth," with a weird situation.
I'm a musician that [(used to, as of last Friday) :-D] have a day job. All my friends are struggling artists and musicians, either scraping by on small grants, lessons or gigs/sales in their arts specialty or in low-pay jobs like barista/retail.
I was lucky to accidentally pivot a hobby into a median-plus income job and saved my tail off.
I can't tell any of my art friends. I don't know how they would relate, but my guess is it could adversely affect our relationship. So I am currently lying to them all. ("My job sucks! We were busy today! TGIF!").
The worst (and I have no idea how to deal with it) is my ex-BF/BF (boyfriend and best friend) is extremely poor, on disability, does odd jobs and absolutely can not know that I am FI. (what a can of worms that would open). It wasn't hard to keep under wraps while I was working, but now I'm RE'd. He doesn't know. He occasionally stays over at my place and then offers a ride to work. This is pretty crazy, but until I figure out how to deal with this situation I am *faking* going to work on the one (sometimes two) days per week he stays over to protect my secret! (I even procured a duplicate badge before I quit so it would look right). He drops me off, I get a coffee downtown, then jump on a bus for home.
I have to figure out a solution, because that can't last forever. :-/
Anyone else trying to obfuscate their situation from a very-close person in their life? Or is my situation just unique and stoopid? Ugh. :-/
Other than that silly exercise, RE is great, so far!
-The Pigeon
This is actually kinda sad. I'm trying to imagine how anyone can be this close to someone (that they occasionally stay over and/or are considered "best friend"), yet at the same time lacks basic trust in them and maintains secrecy about such a significant aspect of your life.
Weird.
It is sad but it's really hard to go against your own click. She lives in the People's Republic of San Francisco for God's sake. Just when and how she comes out of the closet has to be her call. BTW, it's not that unusual. In his book on military retirement Nord recounts how one service member suited up and left for work weekdays after retirement so as not to freak out the kids.
Thanks, Eric, the extended-play version of that ER's advice is at this post:
http://the-military-guide.com/2013/06/10/im-setting-a-good-example-by-working-at-a-job/
Pigeon, I suspect that your problems with your ex-BF/BFF are more than financial. When you eventually reveal the truth (or get caught in a lie) then you'll find out exactly what type of friend you have. If you can't handle that discussion now, then maybe this friend isn't quite the best friend you feel that they are.
You could test the waters by explaining the simple truth-- that you "accidentally pivoted a hobby into a median-plus income job" and that you're going to be taking more time off from work. If your BFF is really a friend then they'll be happy for you. If they're jealous or envious, or if it otherwise affects the relationship, then they weren't much of a friend to begin with.
As for the rest of your crowd, you could always take the approach of "I'm taking a few months off to <spend time with family><focus on my art><find a better job>". Most people interpret that as "I'm unemployed and I really need a job..." so they won't ask a bunch of probing questions. If you dress like a beach bum and spend a lot of time surfing then they'll worry that you'll ask them to lend you money. At least that's been my personal experience.
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Thanks, Eric, the extended-play version of that ER's advice is at this post:
http://the-military-guide.com/2013/06/10/im-setting-a-good-example-by-working-at-a-job/
This is a great article!
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Thanks, Eric, the extended-play version of that ER's advice is at this post:
http://the-military-guide.com/2013/06/10/im-setting-a-good-example-by-working-at-a-job/
This is a great article!
Thanks!
I get some of my best posts from forum questions like these...
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People do get jealous which I find weird. When we retired at 53 & 58 some of our friends were jealous that we had small pensions. They were only $20,000 each & our health insurance cost $10,000/year. Still they were older & had to keep working. WE chose to only semi-retire & work p.t. from home. Eventually one of the friendships dissolved.
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I discuss FIRE with my very good friend who Ive grown up with like a brother, I talked with him about purchasing index funds and holding for decades right after the 2008 financial collapse and it sunk in. I share every fund purchase with him to start a little friendly competition. Other friends are not very receptive, the 'worst offenders' in terms of wasteful spending and debt are often the least receptive.
My friends know that I hate to spend money on things like furniture, clothing, vehicle modifications (a seemingly big deal for younger people), or fancy toys. I aim for the smallest recurring group of monthly expenses i can get, and until my dumb phone died last year I was the last smartphone holdout of the bunch. But in some areas I will splurge, on a good PC, on very good all terrain tires, and on bulk purchases of meat to smoke and freeze which lasts all year.
I think the general consensus by people who know me is that I dont give a fuck and I work too much, which is right, but the driver behind it all is a stash of cash that keeps on growing even if I stop working. I guess thats better than being perceived as butting in where I dont belong by discussing FIRE with friends living paycheck to paycheck.
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People do get jealous which I find weird. When we retired at 53 & 58 some of our friends were jealous that we had small pensions. They were only $20,000 each & our health insurance cost $10,000/year. Still they were older & had to keep working. WE chose to only semi-retire & work p.t. from home. Eventually one of the friendships dissolved.
Only $20k each?
That's a pretty hefty pension, give me two of those and I'm retired tomorrow! :)
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Do you just keep it to yourself? I thought I'd be helping people sby sharing the techniques we used and how we saved, but I've gotten a ton of angry comments and some honest-to-God hate mail.
I pretty much keep details of what I have accumulated to myself. I answer any questions in a broader sense like I'm doing OK. Or I can hint around at work that I can financially leave anytime. Let them read between the lines. I've found others generally aren't interested in learning the living below your means lifestyle and invest the difference philosophy. I know many people who make a decent living but are into consumer spending heavily. Big house, new cars. Their kids in high school driving 3 year old luxury car. They have no desire to change.
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I'm doing my best to adhere to "stealth wealth," with a weird situation.
I'm a musician that [(used to, as of last Friday) :-D] have a day job. All my friends are struggling artists and musicians, either scraping by on small grants, lessons or gigs/sales in their arts specialty or in low-pay jobs like barista/retail.
I was lucky to accidentally pivot a hobby into a median-plus income job and saved my tail off.
I can't tell any of my art friends. I don't know how they would relate, but my guess is it could adversely affect our relationship. So I am currently lying to them all. ("My job sucks! We were busy today! TGIF!").
The worst (and I have no idea how to deal with it) is my ex-BF/BF (boyfriend and best friend) is extremely poor, on disability, does odd jobs and absolutely can not know that I am FI. (what a can of worms that would open). It wasn't hard to keep under wraps while I was working, but now I'm RE'd. He doesn't know. He occasionally stays over at my place and then offers a ride to work. This is pretty crazy, but until I figure out how to deal with this situation I am *faking* going to work on the one (sometimes two) days per week he stays over to protect my secret! (I even procured a duplicate badge before I quit so it would look right). He drops me off, I get a coffee downtown, then jump on a bus for home.
I have to figure out a solution, because that can't last forever. :-/
Anyone else trying to obfuscate their situation from a very-close person in their life? Or is my situation just unique and stoopid? Ugh. :-/
Other than that silly exercise, RE is great, so far!
-The Pigeon
The Pigeon,
First of all, congratulations on FIRE. Way to go!
Second, I sort of know where you're coming from. We have several friends who are doing reasonably well financially, are frugal in most matters, yet subtly try to get out of paying for lunches or drinks if there's a group outing. If any of them had a clearer picture of our stache, this might turn a minor annoyance into a real problem. When my better half has down time (works two part-time jobs), these are the friends who come out of the woodwork asking for help on different projects, for little or no compensation, naturally.
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I don't have a huge 'stache. I have about two years of expenses in a 401k. We just pretend that the money is not there and it isn't discussed. We've been living the last 6 years on one $40k income and saving about $8k of that in HSA and 401k funds. Most people wonder how we scrape by on one income and two kids and I'm sure they don't wonder about how much we have saved. I have a few friends that make over $100k and their houses and stuff don't seem any better than mine except for the better perceived zip code.
I love talking about personal finance but when I bring it up I try to put it in terms of cooking from scratch, DIY, buying used, how to live on one income and have a SAHP, etc. I don't get much chance to talk about investments because nearly everyone I know is either close to poverty or still living paycheck to paycheck. I don't think they would believe us if I said we saved 23% of our income.
Edited for clarity
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I don't go into a ton of detail, but usually when finances are discussed it's pretty easy for me to grouse about our giant student loan debt and how I'm *trying* to pay it off faster than the minimum, and that's a narrative that fits fairly nicely in with what other people tend to talk about so I don't stand out. We are on the recovery phase from some okay (by most people's standards)/kind of lousy (by mustachian standards) financial decisions, so we don't immediately appear mustachian to others. I have mentioned to a few friends that we don't have a car payment, and they know we bought a pretty nice minivan last year, but nobody has said anything to us about having connected the dots and understanding that we paid cash. Our closest friend probably knows the most, but he is also fairly mustachian himself with no debt, a car he paid off within a few months of purchase, income well exceeding expenses, and plans to retire in his 50s. Retirement is still pretty far off for us, not much point in discussing that pipe dream in too much detail now. I did mention MMM to another friend, more in the context of doing a lifestyle overhaul so he could quit his job (which he hates) and stay home with his kid. Don't know if he made anything of it.
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I generally keep quiet, although I've told my dad about our savings. Just not the early retirement piece.
My wife told one of her friends, and it was a pretty funny story. My wife's friend has an incredibly high income (dual-income lawyer couple), and she was blabbing on about her next big vacation to Latin America, and how she was paying to bring the entire extended family. She's always trying to one-up everyone else with her spending. This is the same person that hired a band to play at her daughter's first birthday.
Anyways, my wife comes back and says "Oh, we ran the numbers and we could potentially retire in our mid-forties." That actually shut my wife's friend up for a minute. And if you knew this woman, you'd know what a big accomplishment that is.
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The fact that things have been so awkward around just the hinting of positive net worth type comments, makes me think that their heads would explode if they had an inkling of really where we are/what we're working toward. So, glad I dipped my toes in before sharing the full story.
...
What do you plan to do when you hit FIRE? Pretend to go to work still? Honest question, not trying to troll.
Edit: I posted this before reading the rest of the thread (especially the post from pigeon).
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The worst (and I have no idea how to deal with it) is my ex-BF/BF (boyfriend and best friend) is extremely poor, on disability, does odd jobs and absolutely can not know that I am FI. (what a can of worms that would open). It wasn't hard to keep under wraps while I was working, but now I'm RE'd. He doesn't know. He occasionally stays over at my place and then offers a ride to work. This is pretty crazy, but until I figure out how to deal with this situation I am *faking* going to work on the one (sometimes two) days per week he stays over to protect my secret! (I even procured a duplicate badge before I quit so it would look right). He drops me off, I get a coffee downtown, then jump on a bus for home.
I have to figure out a solution, because that can't last forever. :-/
Anyone else trying to obfuscate their situation from a very-close person in their life? Or is my situation just unique and stoopid? Ugh. :-/
I'm still 4-5 years away from FIRE, but I've been thinking more and more about how to handle my parents once I'm ready to quit my job. My dad's the type who seems to think one's worth is only measurable by the size of your paycheck. Not your net worth, mind you, ONLY the amount of money someone is willing to pay you is a valid gauge by which to determine your right to exist on the planet. Despite having sufficient retirement income, I think he ended up retiring before he really wanted to. For many years he constantly whined about how he wanted to work but no one would hire him.
Then, I have two older brothers who apparently suck at adulthood and my parents have had to help them out on numerous occasions. Despite the fact that I've been out on my own since I was 19 (almost 20 years ago) and have never ONCE asked my parents for a cent, my dad acts like its some sort of inevitability that he's going to end up supporting me and hubby. They don't know the exact details of our finances, but they know we paid our house off several years ago and that we're very frugal. Anytime I make the slightest comment that I might not totally love my job I get the "Well, at least you have a job. Your brother... blah blah."
A month or two ago he heard a news story about a how government agency that is completely unrelated to the agency I work for was going to make some cutbacks, and he called me worrying that I was going to lose my job. Despite my assurances, he seemed unconvinced that I actually knew which agency I worked for and that the news story was in no way related to my job. I laughed and said, "Even if I did, I probably have more money than you guys." I have dozens of stories like this. I increasingly dread phone calls with him because I'm afraid he's going to start asking questions about my job, which I have no interest in discussing with him, or discussing finances because I just can't stand the stupid things he says.
I can't even imagine how he's going to react when I tell him I'm quitting my perfectly good, secure, well-paying job. He will never believe I have enough money (once had a conversation with him where he quoted one of those dumb-ass articles that says you need $3 million to retire :p) I've seriously considered just lying and not telling them when I retire, but hubby and my plans include lots of travel - like living in a camper full time for several years. Not sure how I can hide that :)
In the end I know I don't need his permission or approval, so its certainly not going to stop me. I just know that every single time I talk to him from that point on he'll be asking stupid and annoying questions that imply I have no idea what I'm doing and am on the brink of financial ruin or not "living up to my potential."
It would be cool if people could just be happy for us.
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I used to be a completely open book about money, then we started making a lot more, and we don't talk about it anymore because we aren't trying to brag and some people no matter how you say it is all they hear because of their own jealousies.
It was a bit weird to get used to though, changing something that we were so open about before.
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I've talked about early retirement with most of my friends and some of my family. I'm just starting my career, so I have plenty of time before FIRE, but I've made it known that I plan to continue to pretend that I'm on a college kid's budget (granted, a college kid with well paying internships) and save a large portion of my income. Most of my friend's reaction range from moderately skeptical to mostly indifferent.
Interestingly, I have found a couple other guys at my company who are mustachians. We use Slack (inner-company group chat) and somehow Republic Wireless came up, by which we identified each other. We started a private mmm channel on there to discuss all thing ER. Pretty nice to have support IRL. We don't talk specific numbers, but beyond that are pretty open. Other co-workers are, again, either indifferent or skeptical if it ever comes up.
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As soon as I found out about this lifestyle and goal I excitedly told my friends that my plans were to become FIRE. There was the usual "yeah, I'll believe it when I see it" stuff.
However the biggest challenge I faced was in people eyeing every dollar I spent, especially with regard to group activities. I only bring a six pack to a party? Despite the fact that almost everyone else has too (some even less!) *I* am the cheap one. Don't want to spend $100 to spend the weekend at the lake house? Obviously I care more about money than I do my friends.
Honestly my spending is not much different now than it was before I found MMM. I still chip in for group gifts. I still happily split bills for group dinners, despite the fact that my meal probably cost less. Doesn't matter, I'm the cheap one.
So no, I no longer bring it up.
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I'm still 4-5 years away from FIRE, but I've been thinking more and more about how to handle my parents once I'm ready to quit my job. My dad's the type who seems to think one's worth is only measurable by the size of your paycheck. Not your net worth, mind you, ONLY the amount of money someone is willing to pay you is a valid gauge by which to determine your right to exist on the planet. Despite having sufficient retirement income, I think he ended up retiring before he really wanted to. For many years he constantly whined about how he wanted to work but no one would hire him.
Then, I have two older brothers who apparently suck at adulthood and my parents have had to help them out on numerous occasions. Despite the fact that I've been out on my own since I was 19 (almost 20 years ago) and have never ONCE asked my parents for a cent, my dad acts like its some sort of inevitability that he's going to end up supporting me and hubby. They don't know the exact details of our finances, but they know we paid our house off several years ago and that we're very frugal. Anytime I make the slightest comment that I might not totally love my job I get the "Well, at least you have a job. Your brother... blah blah."
A month or two ago he heard a news story about a how government agency that is completely unrelated to the agency I work for was going to make some cutbacks, and he called me worrying that I was going to lose my job. Despite my assurances, he seemed unconvinced that I actually knew which agency I worked for and that the news story was in no way related to my job. I laughed and said, "Even if I did, I probably have more money than you guys." I have dozens of stories like this. I increasingly dread phone calls with him because I'm afraid he's going to start asking questions about my job, which I have no interest in discussing with him, or discussing finances because I just can't stand the stupid things he says.
I can't even imagine how he's going to react when I tell him I'm quitting my perfectly good, secure, well-paying job. He will never believe I have enough money (once had a conversation with him where he quoted one of those dumb-ass articles that says you need $3 million to retire :p) I've seriously considered just lying and not telling them when I retire, but hubby and my plans include lots of travel - like living in a camper full time for several years. Not sure how I can hide that :)
In the end I know I don't need his permission or approval, so its certainly not going to stop me. I just know that every single time I talk to him from that point on he'll be asking stupid and annoying questions that imply I have no idea what I'm doing and am on the brink of financial ruin or not "living up to my potential."
It would be cool if people could just be happy for us.
This is very painful. The best solution seems to be controlling our own reactions instead of hoping that the parent will change.
I've been ER'd for 13 years. Yet for the last 15+ years, my father-in-law has been convinced that his only daughter and I are going to end up on the streets. In the 1990s I used to enjoy talking with him about finances and investments, but after the tech recession he grew increasingly paranoid about "rigged stock markets". (Today they're 100% CDs and Treasuries.) Little by little we had less and less to discuss about anything, and we were practically reduced to polite chitchat. I haven't spoken to him since 2007 when they moved back to the Mainland.
My spouse used to call her parents every few months, but their treatment of her over the last couple years has caused her to force herself to stop doing that. Instead we get occasional updates on her parents from our daughter, and that seems to work for all three generations.
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I love to talk money with my family and friends, but I try to not be condescending and I never, ever, under any circumstances tell them how much I have in the bank. Of my three siblings, two have filed for bankruptcy. My parents have filed for bankruptcy. All of them have incomes higher than the national average. If they knew I had $X in the bank, they would invent things for me to spend it on, including themselves.
I had to have "the talk" with my parents awhile ago about how I was not "lending" them money any more unless they got their act together and it was a legitimate need. So I share MMM and other articles on social media, and I talk about good tips on how to save, and I help people with time and sweat when they have issues, but not money.
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It really is sad that you need to keep it to yourself but unfortunately that is the way it is.
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Hello Andrea, welcome to MMM.
I remember reading your reddit and was taken aback by the hateful comments. I made a comment in support of you. (I went back to try and find my comment, but there are so many comments, I gave up.)
Here you'll find people not only in agreement with you, but give you congratulations and support. When MMM is interviewed in major news publications, even though his story is super compelling, the comments are mostly haters. I've even found it on other financial forums I respect such as the Bogleheads.
Just to let you know, I found your post on reddit inspiring. TBH, I found it a bit unpolished and that even attracted me more because I could see the honesty.
Also I tried the link you posted to your blog, but I had no luck getting to your page.
Interesting dichotomy--here you're respected, in the mainstream you're ridiculed.
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BTW, there's something else I want to get off my chest:
I remember years ago I saw a friend who had lost a lot of weight. I was immediately congratulatory and asked him how he had lost his weight.
Not to brag, but I'm in excellent health and I'm complemented quite often. I was playing tennis with friends this Sunday and a number of them were mentioning how they needed to lose weight and what they were doing.
Just like in finance, I've learned to keep my mouth shut, but nevertheless, I'm surprised that not one of them would at least ask me a cursory question about it.
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I have talked with friends and family about FI & ER on a conceptual level and what a 65-75% saving rate can archive, but I keep quiet that I'm actually doing it. And they are not as excited as me about the concept anyway so I don't feel like talking about it :). But I think they understand I am living far below my means, but they probably think im saving for a bigger house.
Maybe I am also lucky in the sense that most my friends study so I do not look weird (yet) not spending crazy money on homestyling and cars.
Also, part of the fun is to keep it a secret. But I can sometime long for a friend to discuss how to hack the system to the max.
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Hello Andrea, welcome to MMM.
I remember reading your reddit and was taken aback by the hateful comments. I made a comment in support of you. (I went back to try and find my comment, but there are so many comments, I gave up.)
Here you'll find people not only in agreement with you, but give you congratulations and support. When MMM is interviewed in major news publications, even though his story is super compelling, the comments are mostly haters. I've even found it on other financial forums I respect such as the Bogleheads.
Just to let you know, I found your post on reddit inspiring. TBH, I found it a bit unpolished and that even attracted me more because I could see the honesty.
Also I tried the link you posted to your blog, but I had no luck getting to your page.
Interesting dichotomy--here you're respected, in the mainstream you're ridiculed.
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BTW, there's something else I want to get off my chest:
I remember years ago I saw a friend who had lost a lot of weight. I was immediately congratulatory and asked him how he had lost his weight.
Not to brag, but I'm in excellent health and I'm complemented quite often. I was playing tennis with friends this Sunday and a number of them were mentioning how they needed to lose weight and what they were doing.
Just like in finance, I've learned to keep my mouth shut, but nevertheless, I'm surprised that not one of them would at least ask me a cursory question about it.
That's an interesting comparison. The two topics line up for me in so many ways when considering whether to discuss it with friends/family. I lost 65 pounds over about 18 months a few years ago and tons of people asked me how I did it (because unlike finances, it's not something you can hide), but I never once went up to anyone I thought could use my advise and told them how I lost weight, and how they should too. I always gave advice if asked, but never unsolicited. Same with financial advice.
Also, I've never experienced negative reactions to my weight loss, nor to my financial achievements, but there are plenty of people on this forum who tell stories about negative reactions, and there were plenty of people on weight loss forums who experienced very negative reactions from family and friends about their weight loss goals and achievements. I'm sure the negativity for both things comes from the same place. Jealousy, insecurity, fear, trying to drag someone back to their level, etc.
Also, for people like in your experience who don't ask, perhaps either they are just afraid that they might get an answer they don't have an excuse for. Or maybe they just thing you are lucky enough to have always been in shape. No one I meet now asks me for advice, only the people who knew me when I was 65 pounds heavier ask, because they knew I had to work my ass off for it.
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Hello Andrea, welcome to MMM.
I remember reading your reddit and was taken aback by the hateful comments. I made a comment in support of you. (I went back to try and find my comment, but there are so many comments, I gave up.)
Here you'll find people not only in agreement with you, but give you congratulations and support. When MMM is interviewed in major news publications, even though his story is super compelling, the comments are mostly haters. I've even found it on other financial forums I respect such as the Bogleheads.
Just to let you know, I found your post on reddit inspiring. TBH, I found it a bit unpolished and that even attracted me more because I could see the honesty.
Also I tried the link you posted to your blog, but I had no luck getting to your page.
Interesting dichotomy--here you're respected, in the mainstream you're ridiculed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, there's something else I want to get off my chest:
I remember years ago I saw a friend who had lost a lot of weight. I was immediately congratulatory and asked him how he had lost his weight.
Not to brag, but I'm in excellent health and I'm complemented quite often. I was playing tennis with friends this Sunday and a number of them were mentioning how they needed to lose weight and what they were doing.
Just like in finance, I've learned to keep my mouth shut, but nevertheless, I'm surprised that not one of them would at least ask me a cursory question about it.
I really appreciate the support. I fixed the blog link, so it should work now. I just didn't want to copy-paste my blog over to reddit, because I felt it was tl;dr for reddit, so I dashed something off, and...wow. I do think that I'm privileged in the way I grew up, and that my parents taught me a lot about saving, frugality, and just general DIY. They're very mustachian in the way that they lived and are now enjoying the benefits, and I picked up a lot of their habits. My husband had things a lot rougher than me, but he's got an amazing work ethic and he's incredibly smart. I'll admit to being torn, since I do believe that some people just got a bum deal in life. I want to be compassionate to that.
On the other hand, I know so many people who make the same money or more than my husband and I, and they're living paycheck to paycheck. That was my intended audience, rather than those who are already frugal. I mean...do you really need those new shoes or that new purse? That brand new car? The financed furniture?
I'm picking up some lovely new tips from reading around here, and though we'd originally planned to retire at 55, we're now wondering if we can hit retirement earlier! We're both extremely goal-oriented, so now that we've hit this one goal, we're looking to see what we can do next :)
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... only the people who knew me when I was 65 pounds heavier ask, because they knew I had to work my ass off for it.
I see what you did there! Nice punch line...
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