How much do you need to live?

[MDM]

You can certainly manipulate your tax liability to an extent. But that's just it - "to an extent." After moving to a no income tax state and maxing out your retirement accounts, there's really not much more you can do. Well okay you can do many things to reduce your tax bill but increase your overall expenses (ie, have kids and get a child tax credit).

Agreed.

Whose money was it? The government's.

I don't want to put words into your mouth, so I'll ask instead of assume: does this mean you believe "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is a proper philosophy?

[loftygoal]

I spend about $12,000 a year and I have a fancy pants life. I'm currently renting an apartment in the trendy Alphabet District near downtown Portland, albeit it's a studio, and I split the cost + space with my partner. I drink a green smoothie for breakfast every day. We treat ourselves once a month to an amazing meal at a highly rated or James Beard award winning chef-run restaurant, but don't eat out at all otherwise.

My employer pays my health insurance premiums, and that's a big part of how I keep my expenses low. I also tend to take one international trip per year using credit card points for the free flight, and using AirBnB for budget accommodation.

That figure obviously doesn't include unexpected costs like veterinarian visits or car repairs.

[Cressida]

Whose money was it? The government's.

I don't want to put words into your mouth, so I'll ask instead of assume: does this mean you believe "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is a proper philosophy?

I don't think it's fair to take (1) "the government needs to levy funds from the populace in order to function" and twist it into (2) full-fledged socialism. They are not the same thing, so it's illogical to assume that someone who believes (1) must believe (2). I can't quite believe I need to spell this out.

[kathrynd]

Another thing that boggles my mind, are the people who spend $300+ per couple on food, and think it is normal.
Maybe it is normal, but averaging $150 per person, per month, is a lot to me.

What are you eating?

Are you eating mostly processed stuff or are you buying fresh ingredients and preparing your own meals?

$150/person a month is absolutely do-able, and probably not even all that extreme.  But something my wife has noticed in a lot of YouTube videos she's watched that are about saving the maximum amount of money is that they're eating garbage.

We buy very little processed or frozen food. We buy reduced foods and specials, and stock up. My husband is 6'-200 lbs and I'm 5'1-112 lbs (approx)  We waste very little food, and anything that does spoils, we toss to the chickens. We eat meat every day.Our budget averages $50 a week, total for the 2 of us. This also includes all toiletries and paper products we buy.
The below response is a copy & paste from another thread, where we were having a discussion about groceries.


Halfway through the month and we've spent 108.83

Dairy:        17.7%.................19.25
Meat/Eggs: 30.6%................33.37
Bread:        4.8 %..................5.31
Fruits/Veg: 28.5%............... .31.11
Oil/Fat:        2%.....................2.25
Baking/Nuts: 4.5 %.................4.95
Condiments: 1.8 %................1.99
Non-Food:    5.9 %.................6.49
Drinks:         0
Canned:       2%......................2.23
Junk Food:   1.7 % ...............1.88


*Australian family of 2


Just finished the shopping for the week
..grand total for the month so far (including eating out and alcohol..which equals $0) is $184.52

just to show what we bought...

5kg potatoes- $6.99
500g margarine  @$.99 x 2= $1.98
3L milk- $3.00
lettuce-$.99
250g strawberries- $3.99
avocado-$1.99
 .75kg bananas- $1.40
2kg sweet potatoes-$3.89
500g mushrooms(reduced)-2.99
crumpets- $1.19
700gr bread 4@ $.85= $3.40
avocado=$1.99
1 kg carrots-$1.69
1kg margarine- $1.59
1.5 kg whole chicken- $5.49
2.096 kg ground beef- $12.56
3L milk- $2.99
750g corn flakes- $2.69
100g rice crackers 2@ $0.89 = $1.78
320g cranberry chutney =$2.69
500g ginger marmalade= $1.45
425g baked beans 2 @ $0.69 = $1.38
corn starch- $1.39
sesame snaps- $1.49
1L UHT milk-$0.95
250g strawberries- $3.49


: $34.85  this trip + $184.52= $219.37 for the month. (averaged out is $50.62 week for 2 people)
This also includes our $0.00 for eating out and alcohol.


This is what we bought this week
 
3L milk- $3.00
2L strawberry milk $5.99 (reduced)- $3.99
600 ml cream- $2.30
500g salt- $0.89
500g icing sugar- $1.54
200g tzatziki dip $2.79 (reduced)-$0.99
1 kg basa fish fillets- $6.98
1 kg puff pastry sheets- $2.70
250g strawberries- $2.99
125g x 2 raspberries $6.98 (reduced)-$6.00
mango-$2.49
18g ground cinnamon- $0.99
 
We still have so much food left over.

[johnny847]

Whose money was it? The government's.

I don't want to put words into your mouth, so I'll ask instead of assume: does this mean you believe "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is a proper philosophy?

I don't think it's fair to take (1) "the government needs to levy funds from the populace in order to function" and twist it into (2) full-fledged socialism. They are not the same thing, so it's illogical to assume that someone who believes (1) must believe (2). I can't quite believe I need to spell this out.

Well said Cressida.

[MDM]

I don't think it's fair to take (1) "the government needs to levy funds from the populace in order to function" and twist it into (2) full-fledged socialism. They are not the same thing, so it's illogical to assume that someone who believes (1) must believe (2). I can't quite believe I need to spell this out.

I quite agree that it would not be fair to assume (1) implies (2) - no argument.

But (1) is quite different from "the money was never yours to begin with because it was the government's".  That implies one's earnings are at the whim of a controlling government, rather than "governments...deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

If we are all saying that some amount of taxation is needed to provide for common needs, and that individuals have primary influence over their own outcomes by virtue of their own actions, then we all agreed - correct?

We may not agree on exact role of government, and thus the specific amount/percentage of tax expense one should have to pay, but that would be a thread of its own....

[TheFrugalFox]

I live reasonably well on R6000 / $600 p/m - with house paid off and bills split with my wife. Tried doing it on $500 for the last 6 months and it just wasn't enough to cover the odd unbudgeted for bill. Like this month I was heading for a bit of a surplass to chuck into a new TV and holiday - and found I need a new battery for my car. Oh well.

Food costs looks to be slightly cheaper than OZ here in South Africa - say 20%

Most would laugh at me for suggesting I can live on $600 here - a friend pays $600 p/m to send his two kids to an decent/ middle of the road private school - excluding extra's.

I live well enough that we go on a bike ride every Sunday and have breakfast as well as a night to the theatre/ show once a month.

[Retired To Win]

To those who think, referring to taxes, "that money was never yours to begin with" - whose money was it?

Taxes absolutely are an adjustable expense.  E.g., you can choose to live where property taxes are high or low.  You can also choose to live in states and cities that have income taxes or not.

There is even legal precedent: "Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes." - Learned Hand.

Absolutely this.

And I'll tell you something.  It IS my money.  The government can take it, if push comes to shove, but so could a thug with a gun.  At least if the thug manages to catch me by surprise.  Luckily, it's harder for the guv'mint to surprise anyone as far as what taxes they intend to take.  One just has to be as smart as possible about dealing with that.

[2lazy2retire]

To those who think, referring to taxes, "that money was never yours to begin with" - whose money was it?

Taxes absolutely are an adjustable expense.  E.g., you can choose to live where property taxes are high or low.  You can also choose to live in states and cities that have income taxes or not.

There is even legal precedent: "Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes." - Learned Hand.

Absolutely this.

And I'll tell you something.  It IS my money.  The government can take it, if push comes to shove, but so could a thug with a gun.  At least if the thug manages to catch me by surprise.  Luckily, it's harder for the guv'mint to surprise anyone as far as what taxes they intend to take.  One just has to be as smart as possible about dealing with that.

" It IS my money" - maybe for the next 2 weeks at most ( plus the possibility of interest) . Why do people insist on been so deluded when it comes to Tax, if you have a tax liability come April 15th - that is the goverments money - end of story.

[greenshade]

For a soon-to-be family of 3 (infant coming soon!):

I did not include healthcare in our budget, this adds about $130 a month, comes out pretax through employer:

Projected:  $2500 per month or $30,000 per year.  This covers rent, utilities, food, insurance, SL minimum payment, phone, car expenses, small buffer.  This also includes some luxuries such as vacation (camping, car trips, maybe a flight next year), and a fluffier grocery/take-out expense than necessary.

Barebones: $1900 a month or $22,800. 

Just as others here have said, we don’t feel like we are deprived or missing out on anything with this budget.  We have some flexibility to increase the budget if needed, but are trying to concentrate on paying off SL and saving for a down payment. I want to be more of a badass with our grocery spending, but it’s so hard!

[Retired To Win]

To those who think, referring to taxes, "that money was never yours to begin with" - whose money was it?

Taxes absolutely are an adjustable expense.  E.g., you can choose to live where property taxes are high or low.  You can also choose to live in states and cities that have income taxes or not.

There is even legal precedent: "Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes." - Learned Hand.

Absolutely this.

And I'll tell you something.  It IS my money.  The government can take it, if push comes to shove, but so could a thug with a gun.  At least if the thug manages to catch me by surprise.  Luckily, it's harder for the guv'mint to surprise anyone as far as what taxes they intend to take.  One just has to be as smart as possible about dealing with that.

" It IS my money" - maybe for the next 2 weeks at most ( plus the possibility of interest) . Why do people insist on been so deluded when it comes to Tax, if you have a tax liability come April 15th - that is the government's money - end of story.

No.  It is YOUR money being taken from you.  Or, if it makes you feel better, it is your money which you are exchanging for the benefits and advantages of being able to live in an orderly and organized society.

[Cressida]

Or, if it makes you feel better, it is your money which you are exchanging for the benefits and advantages of being able to live in an orderly and organized society.

well ... yeah?

Technically, yes, it's your money. If employer withholding weren't so pervasive, we would all be paid gross wages and then literally have to turn around and pay money to the government (as many do, notably the self-employed). Maybe then we would be more likely to see taxes as "our" money.

But really - what good does that do? If you have two options, and one is to be resigned to the fact that the government uses part of your official wages in order to run the state, and the other is to be in a state of perpetual outrage about it, why would you choose the latter?

OK, "Perpetual outrage" is something of an exaggeration, but my point is, isn't it less heart-attack-inducing to just think of that money as belonging to the government from the beginning? Minimize their share to the extent that you can, but begrudging the remainder just seems like a pointless waste of energy.

[mohawkbrah]

theoretically £6k a year. though i live with my mum and dad so i don't pay much for anything right now. i did make an expenses spreadsheet with overestimates.

£3k a year if i didn't have to pay mortgage bills


once can hope :)

[Retired To Win]

Or, if it makes you feel better, it is your money which you are exchanging for the benefits and advantages of being able to live in an orderly and organized society.

well ... yeah?

...isn't it less heart-attack-inducing to just think of that money as belonging to the government from the beginning? Minimize their share to the extent that you can, but begrudging the remainder just seems like a pointless waste of energy.

It's neither pointless nor a waste of time to me.  And it's not outrage, it's conviction.

Well... I was going to now go and write out a long-winded response; but you know what?  This is neither the thread nor the venue for such political-philosophical debates.  So how about it if I just respectfully refuse to agree with you and we leave it at that.  You can do the same.