Author Topic: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?  (Read 299351 times)

Abe

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4200 on: October 22, 2020, 07:34:59 PM »
We are in for a long, hard winter mentally. But I do think there will be less of a spike in deaths compared to the spring, mostly due to the efficacy of dexamethasone and earlier identification/triage of COVID patients in the hospital. Also, many people who are susceptible to it (risk of exposure x risk of death) succumbed in the spring wave, and we were more prepared for the summer wave. Good visualization of this from CDC here: https://public.tableau.com/views/COVID_excess_mort_withcauses_09092020/WeeklyNumberByAge

The issue is we don't know how long immunity from the spring will last. Most likely no more than a year, possibly only 9 months. Concerningly, there was a noticeable decrease in antibody levels even <3 months out (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7386524/). It is difficult to know currently what the average necessary level is to maintain immunity, but such a rapid drop is a bit concerning.
Conversely, studies of the related virus that causes SARS showed high antibody levels at 2 years(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7141458/). Influenza strain-specific antibodies remain present for decades, as do measles antibodies (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa0906453, https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/569784).

SunnyDays

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4201 on: October 22, 2020, 07:36:55 PM »
We are coming into winter.....  snowed 6" this week.

We've been really careful this whole time, only seeing 2 family members and 2 neighbor families (outside only).

But as we come in to winter, mental health is already not good, and outdoor socializing is more and more challenging.  We did buy a patio heater.  IDK.  Everything sucks, life is terrible.

No, life is not terrible.  Time to adjust your thinking.  You’re still healthy (I assume), you have a home, family and food on the table and probably a job.  I can think of much harder lives than that.

I hate comments like this. NOT HELPFUL. It's not the suffering olympics. People are allowed to be miserable even if someone has it worse. And it is also a giant middle finger to mental illness.

You can be miserable if you want to.  But wallowing in unhappiness is not going to make you feel better.  Maybe try to find something that will?

mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4202 on: October 22, 2020, 07:37:04 PM »
MayDay, I'm sorry to hear that you're having a rough go of it. This whole thing really does suck.

If it's affecting you that bad, I don't think you're wrong to take a few calculated risks to see people and maybe improve your mental health a little.

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/16/924583724/opening-schools-and-other-hard-decisions

This NPR podcast discusses exactly that. Having a decision making framework and accepting risk.

mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4203 on: October 22, 2020, 07:39:01 PM »
You can be miserable if you want to.  But wallowing in unhappiness is not going to make you feel better.  Maybe try to find something that will?

Sometimes people just want to commiserate and be listened to. This is an important lesson for couples to learn. Your sigoth doesn't always want you to whip them into bootstrapping their way out of the problem. Sometimes they just want you to say that you understand.

Really important for couples, but it works in all interpersonal relationships.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 07:40:54 PM by mathlete »

OtherJen

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4204 on: October 22, 2020, 07:50:28 PM »
We are coming into winter.....  snowed 6" this week.

We've been really careful this whole time, only seeing 2 family members and 2 neighbor families (outside only).

But as we come in to winter, mental health is already not good, and outdoor socializing is more and more challenging.  We did buy a patio heater.  IDK.  Everything sucks, life is terrible.

No, life is not terrible.  Time to adjust your thinking.  You’re still healthy (I assume), you have a home, family and food on the table and probably a job.  I can think of much harder lives than that.

I hate comments like this. NOT HELPFUL. It's not the suffering olympics. People are allowed to be miserable even if someone has it worse. And it is also a giant middle finger to mental illness.

Seconded. This would have been one of the hardest years of my life without COVID, for various reasons. With COVID, it has been truly awful at times. We still have good full-time jobs and no kids to educate, but it sucks not being able to sing in choirs (my main social outlet with dear friends and a huge supporter of my mental health) or do my volunteer work in person or see my niece and nephew other than through Facetime. It's incredibly sad and isolating. I totally get it.

It's okay to grieve. I agree with mathlete that maybe you should do a couple of lower-risk things to break the monotony and get a social outlet. I bought tickets to a mostly outdoor holiday event at a historical park in December, because we could go on the same night that I would usually sing in a big choral concert and then have a big festive party with friends. And then I grieved the loss of our choir season. Tomorrow, we're planning to strap on masks to attend a special museum exhibit during a less crowded time. You do what you can to make it less awful, within reason and safety.

Paper Chaser

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4205 on: October 22, 2020, 08:33:39 PM »
Plenty of essential workers have been going about their lives pretty normally since this started and been very successful at it. If you're not in a high risk group, and isolation is getting to be too much, mask up, stay 6ft apart, and go live your life.

frugalnacho

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4206 on: October 22, 2020, 10:18:10 PM »
Kind of wishing everyone would have taken this seriously back in March/April so we wouldn't have to be making the choice between being able to visit family or risk getting the plague this winter.

March 13:

Just imagine we had a virus spreading around the globe that reliably killed half a million people every year, despite having a vaccine for it.  We do, it's the seasonal flu.  And even though there is a vaccine, 2/3 of the adults in the USA can't be bothered to even get the vaccine because they deem it not to be a big deal.  Those are the same people freaking out and panicking about the coronavirus.  The flu has been around longer than the stock market, yet the stock market has done just fine historically. 

I predict the coronavirus will ultimately have less of an impact than the seasonal flu, and we bounce back by the summer of 2020.  There may be larger economic factors at play, but I suspect the coronavirus will blow over and not be nearly as big of a deal as it's currently being made out to be.

Hate to dredge something like this up, but I just remember you being beating the "no big deal drum" along with a lot of other members in March

Yeah I was wrong. I thought it was being blown out of proportion, but then I educated myself about it and completely revised my opinion.  I'll always revise my opinion if presented with new evidence. I wish more people would do the same.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4207 on: October 23, 2020, 12:09:28 AM »
@Kyle Schuant we don’t have fit tested N95s either and haven’t for a long time.
That means nothing to us unless you tell us where "here" is.

But you mentioned a "space suit", which suggests a decent level of PPE - not available to most Victorian healthcare workers.

MudPuppy

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4208 on: October 23, 2020, 04:07:07 AM »
My hospital system in the US. We have face shields. ICU does have CAPRs. We have jumpsuit clothing protectors rather than gowns*. But the masks are either plain surgical or non fitted N95s, unfortunately.

Edit: the jumpsuits work if you are close enough to a size L T-shirt. People much larger or smaller still use gowns.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 04:45:53 AM by MudPuppy »

middo

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4209 on: October 23, 2020, 04:25:36 AM »
Australia, a country of 25 million, had one case of locally transmitted covid today.

NZ had none.

OtherJen

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4210 on: October 23, 2020, 05:03:28 AM »
6 months. That’s how long we could wait.

Pretty much. NY Times: At Capacity’: Covid-19 Patients Push U.S. Hospitals to Brink

Quote
WEST ALLIS, Wis. — A hospital in Idaho is 99 percent full and warning that it may have to transfer coronavirus patients to hospitals in Seattle and Portland, Ore. Medical centers in Kansas City, Mo., turned away ambulances on a recent day because they had no room for more patients. And in West Allis, just outside Milwaukee, an emergency field hospital erected on the grounds of the Wisconsin State Fair admitted its first virus patient this week.

More than 41,000 people are currently hospitalized with the coronavirus in the United States, a 40 percent rise in the past month, and cooler weather that pushes more people indoors is threatening to expand the outbreak still more. At least 14 states saw more people hospitalized for the virus on a day in the past week than on any other day in the pandemic, according to the Covid Tracking Project. Seven more states are nearing their peaks.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4211 on: October 23, 2020, 06:35:27 AM »
I have taken to completely ignoring the news.  I am going on two weeks today.  I had zero idea there was a presidential debate last night until someone at work brought it up this morning.

For those suffering, seriously, take a break from the news. This is something I've aspired to and finally pulled the trigger. This article just from yesterday is so on point -- https://zora.medium.com/10-days-without-media-changed-my-life-86f6f951ab36

Quote
After one day without news, I started to feel more at ease. As my vacation progressed, I incrementally felt more joyful inside and toward others. I became less anxious, slept better, and small annoyances annoyed me less.

***

My media vacation showed me that I don’t have to carry the weight of the world’s problems around in my daily life. I am emotionally healthier as a result. I had insights about my life that my mind was perhaps otherwise too cluttered with toxic information to realize.

I can tell you this was my experience as well.  I went from being mentally distracted about all the news going on to having what I told my wife was "an unbelievable sense of purpose."

We can debate the policy decisions around COVID, but what is undeniable is that COVID is an absolute ratings and monetary blockbuster for media. COVID plus Trump is basically a category 5 hurricane that never ends. Think about what your local news covers -- do you honestly think the national and local media are operating under a different model other than their tried and true fear-based model?

I frequently return to this article in The Atlantic -- https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/09/pandemic-over-end-how-will-we-know/616372/

Quote
Perhaps people will get final confirmation that the pandemic is over not from the potentially conflicting messages of politicians and public-health experts, but from milestones that they have subjectively settled on themselves...This suggests a different definition of the end of the pandemic, one based not on case counts or governors’ directives but on people’s individual experiences. Under this definition, the pandemic ends in one person’s head at a time.

The pandemic has basically ended for me. I wear a mask at work meetings and in stores. I always eat outside at restaurants. I stick to a smaller cluster of gatherings, usually outside.

But other than that, my life is completely normal. I do not care about case counts or deaths or hospital capacities or asymptomatic spread or whatever. This information is of zero actual utility to me. I know because I went from obsessively paying attention to it to completely ignoring it -- and my life is no different other than the fact that I do not have COVID anchors weighing my brain down.

Obviously life has been upended for many via working from home, remote learning, not being able to participate in social outlets, etc. But again, what good does paying attention to the news have on these situations?

The fact of the matter is that, if you're not in a high risk group, your best bet for your short and long term mental and physical health is to, as Paper Chaser said, mask up, distance, and get on with your life. And ignore the news while you're at it.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4212 on: October 23, 2020, 06:45:47 AM »
6 months. That’s how long we could wait.

Pretty much. NY Times: At Capacity’: Covid-19 Patients Push U.S. Hospitals to Brink

Quote
WEST ALLIS, Wis. — A hospital in Idaho is 99 percent full and warning that it may have to transfer coronavirus patients to hospitals in Seattle and Portland, Ore. Medical centers in Kansas City, Mo., turned away ambulances on a recent day because they had no room for more patients. And in West Allis, just outside Milwaukee, an emergency field hospital erected on the grounds of the Wisconsin State Fair admitted its first virus patient this week.

More than 41,000 people are currently hospitalized with the coronavirus in the United States, a 40 percent rise in the past month, and cooler weather that pushes more people indoors is threatening to expand the outbreak still more. At least 14 states saw more people hospitalized for the virus on a day in the past week than on any other day in the pandemic, according to the Covid Tracking Project. Seven more states are nearing their peaks.

This story represents a perfect reason to ignore the news. No context, just hyperbolic blather that infects people's brains and continues the long march towards never-ending panic.

The context, of course, is that our hospitals are designed to hit capacity, and that this happens every 2-3 years, most recently in 2017/18 --

https://time.com/5107984/hospitals-handling-burden-flu-patients/

Quote
The 2017-2018 influenza epidemic is sending people to hospitals and urgent-care centers in every state, and medical centers are responding with extraordinary measures: asking staff to work overtime, setting up triage tents, restricting friends and family visits and canceling elective surgeries, to name a few.

***

The Lehigh Valley Health System in Allentown, Pennsylvania, set up a similar surge tent in its parking lot on Monday, in response to an increase in patients presenting with various viral illnesses, including norovirus, respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) and the flu.

***

In Fenton, Missouri, SSM Health St. Clare Hospital has opened its emergency overflow wing, as well as all outpatient centers and surgical holding centers, to make more beds available to patients who need them.

***


Context is the enemy right now. Media wants everyone to keep watching, keep clicking, keep staying at home. They are making a fortune. The big companies are making a fortune. The pharma companies are about to hit their biggest payday in generations.

You can either keep participating or unplug it. And I would posit that you are an absolute fool to continue playing the game.

PoutineLover

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4213 on: October 23, 2020, 07:05:15 AM »
It's a huge privilege to be able to shut off the news and stop paying attention to what is going on just because it doesn't personally affect you. I can agree that to a certain extent, unplugging is good for your mental health, and going down a rabbit hole of reading every single article on a topic is unproductive. But you can't just plop your head in the sand and be completely unaware of the struggles people are facing and fail to do your part to help.
If you are informed about the issues, you can vote, you can write to your representatives, you can volunteer your time, donate your money, share your point of view and bring awareness to others. Sure, it's easier not to, but I'd argue it's our responsibility as citizens to be aware of what is going on and contribute to the extent we are able.

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4214 on: October 23, 2020, 07:19:16 AM »
Lots of folks changed their mind of course. I Sure Wish your prediction to bounce back by Summer would of been correct Frugalnacho.

+1

I started tracking this in February and back then, I thought we'd be fine. This would be another H1N1 or something. There were high CFRs coming out of China, but I assumed that was just because of limited testing. (That was true of course, but it was still deadlier than I thought it'd be)

Right around the time the NBA shut down I realized this was serious business. I changed my mind.

I also very much which Frugalnacho would have been right.

+2

I was pretty sure that coronavirus was going to amount to nothing back in Jan.  When our government said that all households should start stocking a couple weeks of food at the end of Feb. I started to realize how badly wrong I was.

Early on, there was little understanding of the virus.  But anyone arguing that it was no big deal in April was an idiot.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4215 on: October 23, 2020, 07:22:49 AM »
It's a huge privilege to be able to shut off the news and stop paying attention to what is going on just because it doesn't personally affect you. I can agree that to a certain extent, unplugging is good for your mental health, and going down a rabbit hole of reading every single article on a topic is unproductive. But you can't just plop your head in the sand and be completely unaware of the struggles people are facing and fail to do your part to help.
If you are informed about the issues, you can vote, you can write to your representatives, you can volunteer your time, donate your money, share your point of view and bring awareness to others. Sure, it's easier not to, but I'd argue it's our responsibility as citizens to be aware of what is going on and contribute to the extent we are able.

I've been reading "Escape Everything" and "The Freedom Manifesto." I can only agree with the authors that our modern national democracies are effectively fallacies; that your opinion and your votes are completely meaningless; that what will happen will happen, regardless of what you do; and your efforts and energy are best spent towards your local community, wherein you exercise the greatest degree of control.

Effectively the only federal thing I would support is a complete restructuring of our federal government; and until that becomes a hot button issue, I just can't be bothered. I will instead focus on my local community.

bbqbonelesswing

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4216 on: October 23, 2020, 07:23:46 AM »
It's a huge privilege to be able to shut off the news and stop paying attention to what is going on just because it doesn't personally affect you. I can agree that to a certain extent, unplugging is good for your mental health, and going down a rabbit hole of reading every single article on a topic is unproductive. But you can't just plop your head in the sand and be completely unaware of the struggles people are facing and fail to do your part to help.
If you are informed about the issues, you can vote, you can write to your representatives, you can volunteer your time, donate your money, share your point of view and bring awareness to others. Sure, it's easier not to, but I'd argue it's our responsibility as citizens to be aware of what is going on and contribute to the extent we are able.

Well said.

OtherJen

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4217 on: October 23, 2020, 07:32:28 AM »
It's a huge privilege to be able to shut off the news and stop paying attention to what is going on just because it doesn't personally affect you. I can agree that to a certain extent, unplugging is good for your mental health, and going down a rabbit hole of reading every single article on a topic is unproductive. But you can't just plop your head in the sand and be completely unaware of the struggles people are facing and fail to do your part to help.
If you are informed about the issues, you can vote, you can write to your representatives, you can volunteer your time, donate your money, share your point of view and bring awareness to others. Sure, it's easier not to, but I'd argue it's our responsibility as citizens to be aware of what is going on and contribute to the extent we are able.

Well said.

Seconded. And thanks so much for the patronizing lecture, ReadySetMillionaire.

MudPuppy

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4218 on: October 23, 2020, 07:41:28 AM »
I don’t have to watch the news to know COVID is bad and spreading is poorly controlled, my friends are sick and dying.

bloodaxe

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4219 on: October 23, 2020, 07:50:24 AM »
It's a huge privilege to be able to shut off the news and stop paying attention to what is going on just because it doesn't personally affect you. I can agree that to a certain extent, unplugging is good for your mental health, and going down a rabbit hole of reading every single article on a topic is unproductive. But you can't just plop your head in the sand and be completely unaware of the struggles people are facing and fail to do your part to help.
If you are informed about the issues, you can vote, you can write to your representatives, you can volunteer your time, donate your money, share your point of view and bring awareness to others. Sure, it's easier not to, but I'd argue it's our responsibility as citizens to be aware of what is going on and contribute to the extent we are able.

This might be true if the news gave important daily updates, but it doesn't. It's mostly fear mongering and lazy speculation.

For example: I glanced at a TV the other day, where some anchors were talking about a Trump tweet. If I already know that Trump is corrupt, why do I need to hear daily updates about how he tweeted or said something bad? Is it important to watch a segment dissecting a 256 character tweet?

I also don't buy your needing to be informed about issues to be involved politically. I have certain family members who believe in certain conspiracy theories who regularly volunteer and donate money. I do not consider them to be well informed.

My unpopular opinion: If the political climate is affecting someone mentally, I strongly encourage them to distance themselves from the process. Don't vote and don't watch the news. Spend time with things you love and your family and friends. Sure people on the internet might call you "privileged", "irresponsible", or "not a team player". But that's better then putting yourself through mental anguish.

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4220 on: October 23, 2020, 07:53:09 AM »
I don’t have to watch the news to know COVID is bad and spreading is poorly controlled, my friends are sick and dying.

Yeah.  I find it a little harder to ignore things and pretend everything is fine when you know people who have died from covid.

frugalnacho

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4221 on: October 23, 2020, 07:57:36 AM »
Is this line of reasoning similar to if you just stopped testing you'd have less cases?  Just stop testing, and when people get sick and die anyway, just ignore them.  Problem solved.  Just put a sock over that diabetes induced necrotic foot so you can't see it and go about your business.

PoutineLover

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4222 on: October 23, 2020, 07:58:29 AM »
It's a huge privilege to be able to shut off the news and stop paying attention to what is going on just because it doesn't personally affect you. I can agree that to a certain extent, unplugging is good for your mental health, and going down a rabbit hole of reading every single article on a topic is unproductive. But you can't just plop your head in the sand and be completely unaware of the struggles people are facing and fail to do your part to help.
If you are informed about the issues, you can vote, you can write to your representatives, you can volunteer your time, donate your money, share your point of view and bring awareness to others. Sure, it's easier not to, but I'd argue it's our responsibility as citizens to be aware of what is going on and contribute to the extent we are able.

This might be true if the news gave important daily updates, but it doesn't. It's mostly fear mongering and lazy speculation.

For example: I glanced at a TV the other day, where some anchors were talking about a Trump tweet. If I already know that Trump is corrupt, why do I need to hear daily updates about how he tweeted or said something bad? Is it important to watch a segment dissecting a 256 character tweet?

I also don't buy your needing to be informed about issues to be involved politically. I have certain family members who believe in certain conspiracy theories who regularly volunteer and donate money. I do not consider them to be well informed.

My unpopular opinion: If the political climate is affecting someone mentally, I strongly encourage them to distance themselves from the process. Don't vote and don't watch the news. Spend time with things you love and your family and friends. Sure people on the internet might call you "privileged", "irresponsible", or "not a team player". But that's better then putting yourself through mental anguish.
I guess I should have specified, high quality news. I don't have a tv and I mostly read articles from legitimate sources on a wide variety of topics, not just the US election or coronavirus. There are plenty of good, balanced sources out there and a lot more going on in the world outside the states (I'm Canadian).
My life is currently very affected by covid, given the local restrictions and people I know who have been affected or would be very high risk if infected. I can't just stop paying attention and do whatever I want, legally or morally.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4223 on: October 23, 2020, 07:59:53 AM »
My post about media turned into a ramble, so I will return to where the post started --

For those suffering, seriously, take a break from the news. This is something I've aspired to and finally pulled the trigger. This article just from yesterday is so on point -- https://zora.medium.com/10-days-without-media-changed-my-life-86f6f951ab36

My mental health has suffered quite a bit this year. My own godfather, 61, died of the virus in March. My mom had cancer diagnosis in April. Visiting her for her multiple surgeries in June and July was next to impossible due to restrictions. My wife has had a miscarriage in September.

This year has fucking sucked.

I don't think you have any idea how much paying attention to the news, on a daily basis, can be toxic for your brain. I was going to bed thinking about COVID, about SCOTUS, about all of it. I unplugged. I knew I was voting for Biden months (if not years ago) -- why bother paying attention to it anymore?

It is impossible for me to describe the mental clarity I have had in just two weeks. I traded in car and saved $5,000. I formulated my plan to pay off student loans by next year. I have gotten more done at work than the previous month. And now I have no work today, which is why I've been on MMM for two hours.

I've read 8 or 9 books:

Deep Work by Cal Newport
The Freedom Manifesto by Tom Hodgkinson
The Shallows by Nicholas Carr
Digital Minimalism by Cal Newport
Atomic Habits by James Clear
Set for Life by Scott Trench
Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki

All in about three weeks.

I am not "ignoring" COVID. I know it's out there. Read my post. I am doing my part. But knowing there's a surge in Wisconsin, daily updates about vaccines, on and on and on -- what good does it do me? The only thing I can do is wear my mask, be extremely considerate of those at risk, and try to go about my life while balancing the risks. I work in city government so I am aware of the local developments. I don't need to read the New York Times.

My point is that if you are down, perhaps unplug. It was good for me and it might be good for you. I tried it and my life looks better, even in these dark times. If that's patronizing then I'm sorry.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 08:01:58 AM by ReadySetMillionaire »

bloodaxe

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4224 on: October 23, 2020, 08:01:36 AM »
It's a huge privilege to be able to shut off the news and stop paying attention to what is going on just because it doesn't personally affect you. I can agree that to a certain extent, unplugging is good for your mental health, and going down a rabbit hole of reading every single article on a topic is unproductive. But you can't just plop your head in the sand and be completely unaware of the struggles people are facing and fail to do your part to help.
If you are informed about the issues, you can vote, you can write to your representatives, you can volunteer your time, donate your money, share your point of view and bring awareness to others. Sure, it's easier not to, but I'd argue it's our responsibility as citizens to be aware of what is going on and contribute to the extent we are able.

This might be true if the news gave important daily updates, but it doesn't. It's mostly fear mongering and lazy speculation.

For example: I glanced at a TV the other day, where some anchors were talking about a Trump tweet. If I already know that Trump is corrupt, why do I need to hear daily updates about how he tweeted or said something bad? Is it important to watch a segment dissecting a 256 character tweet?

I also don't buy your needing to be informed about issues to be involved politically. I have certain family members who believe in certain conspiracy theories who regularly volunteer and donate money. I do not consider them to be well informed.

My unpopular opinion: If the political climate is affecting someone mentally, I strongly encourage them to distance themselves from the process. Don't vote and don't watch the news. Spend time with things you love and your family and friends. Sure people on the internet might call you "privileged", "irresponsible", or "not a team player". But that's better then putting yourself through mental anguish.
I guess I should have specified, high quality news. I don't have a tv and I mostly read articles from legitimate sources on a wide variety of topics, not just the US election or coronavirus. There are plenty of good, balanced sources out there and a lot more going on in the world outside the states (I'm Canadian).
My life is currently very affected by covid, given the local restrictions and people I know who have been affected or would be very high risk if infected. I can't just stop paying attention and do whatever I want, legally or morally.

What I've been doing lately is checking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Current_events weekly. Well written and non biased information with sources!

mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4225 on: October 23, 2020, 08:02:17 AM »
It's a huge privilege to be able to shut off the news and stop paying attention to what is going on just because it doesn't personally affect you. I can agree that to a certain extent, unplugging is good for your mental health, and going down a rabbit hole of reading every single article on a topic is unproductive. But you can't just plop your head in the sand and be completely unaware of the struggles people are facing and fail to do your part to help.
If you are informed about the issues, you can vote, you can write to your representatives, you can volunteer your time, donate your money, share your point of view and bring awareness to others. Sure, it's easier not to, but I'd argue it's our responsibility as citizens to be aware of what is going on and contribute to the extent we are able.

This might be true if the news gave important daily updates, but it doesn't. It's mostly fear mongering and lazy speculation.

For example: I glanced at a TV the other day, where some anchors were talking about a Trump tweet. If I already know that Trump is corrupt, why do I need to hear daily updates about how he tweeted or said something bad? Is it important to watch a segment dissecting a 256 character tweet?

I also don't buy your needing to be informed about issues to be involved politically. I have certain family members who believe in certain conspiracy theories who regularly volunteer and donate money. I do not consider them to be well informed.

My unpopular opinion: If the political climate is affecting someone mentally, I strongly encourage them to distance themselves from the process. Don't vote and don't watch the news. Spend time with things you love and your family and friends. Sure people on the internet might call you "privileged", "irresponsible", or "not a team player". But that's better then putting yourself through mental anguish.

I'm getting sick of it too. But to not cover it is to normalize it. The root of the issue is that the President says stupid and easily falsifiable things on a daily basis and 40% of people nod along. This is an existential threat. The root of the issue is that we have an emerging pandemic risk that is killing hundreds of thousands more Americans this year than we would have otherwise expected.

If someone is truly in a negative mental health state over following the news and politics, than I agree, this person should check out. At least for a while.

I don't think that describes most of the news-followers on this forum though. I don't see the "low info diet" stuff as some kind of free-thinker's epiphany. To me, it's just someone who is unable to cope with the complexity of a world that goes beyond, "Do work at computer, get hefty paycheck, vanguard returns 9% a year."

mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4226 on: October 23, 2020, 08:05:38 AM »
@ReadySetMillionaire I'm really sorry for your family's hardships this year. Knowing your personal story, your personal choice to check out of the news coverage of terrible things makes a lot more sense to me. Thanks for explaining. Take care of yourself and stay sane. I hope to god next year is better for you and for everyone else.

bloodaxe

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4227 on: October 23, 2020, 08:07:21 AM »
My post about media turned into a ramble, so I will return to where the post started --

For those suffering, seriously, take a break from the news. This is something I've aspired to and finally pulled the trigger. This article just from yesterday is so on point -- https://zora.medium.com/10-days-without-media-changed-my-life-86f6f951ab36

My mental health has suffered quite a bit this year. My own godfather, 61, died of the virus in March. My mom had cancer diagnosis in April. Visiting her for her multiple surgeries in June and July was next to impossible due to restrictions. My wife has had a miscarriage in September.

This year has fucking sucked.

I don't think you have any idea how much paying attention to the news, on a daily basis, can be toxic for your brain. I was going to bed thinking about COVID, about SCOTUS, about all of it. I unplugged. I knew I was voting for Biden months (if not years ago) -- why bother paying attention to it anymore?

It is impossible for me to describe the mental clarity I have had in just two weeks. I traded in car and saved $5,000. I formulated my plan to pay off student loans by next year. I have gotten more done at work than the previous month. And now I have no work today, which is why I've been on MMM for two hours.

I've read 8 or 9 books:

Deep Work by Cal Newport
The Freedom Manifesto by Tom Hodgkinson
The Shallows by Nicholas Carr
Digital Minimalism by Cal Newport
Atomic Habits by James Clear
Set for Life by Scott Trench
Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki

All in about three weeks.

I am not "ignoring" COVID. I know it's out there. Read my post. I am doing my part. But knowing there's a surge in Wisconsin, daily updates about vaccines, on and on and on -- what good does it do me? The only thing I can do is wear my mask, be extremely considerate of those at risk, and try to go about my life while balancing the risks. I work in city government so I am aware of the local developments. I don't need to read the New York Times.

My point is that if you are down, perhaps unplug. It was good for me and it might be good for you. I tried it and my life looks better, even in these dark times. If that's patronizing then I'm sorry.

I've read most of those books too. You have good taste.

Similar books I've liked are:

For technology/media criticism:
Alone Together by Sherry (or Sharon?) Tuttle
Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman
Irresistable by Adam Atler

Understanding that we are in control of our own happiness:
How I found Freedom in an Unfree World by Harry Browne (just read this last week, highly recommend)
The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy by William Irvine

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4228 on: October 23, 2020, 08:17:55 AM »
I've read most of those books too. You have good taste.

Similar books I've liked are:

For technology/media criticism:
Alone Together by Sherry (or Sharon?) Tuttle
Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman
Irresistable by Adam Atler

Understanding that we are in control of our own happiness:
How I found Freedom in an Unfree World by Harry Browne (just read this last week, highly recommend)
The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy by William Irvine

Thanks for the suggestions. I've read Irresistable and have a copy of How I Found Freedom, but haven't read it.

One I forgot to list was Hate Inc. by Matt Taibbi. He's far and away my favorite political writer, and his media take is excellent.

Interestingly, combining all of it -- the tech skepticism, the control of our own happiness, the "escape"/freedom books -- synthesizes, to me at least, to be incredibly skeptical of news in its entirety. It is a consumer product much like Doritos or Facebook (engineered to trigger your brain and keep you coming back). I am just incredibly skeptical of it right now; and I don't know if that's because of my current predicament/reading list, or whether it's long term.

Funny enough, I have also returned to my youth regarding paying attention to sports. I've maintained my college football fandom, but other sports have fallen away as I have gotten busier and more grown up. But without the news, and all its mental energy and reading, I sit on the couch reading with my wife with the NBA Finals and MLB playoffs. I feel like a kid again. It's so much more enjoyable than news. I can't believe I let it go.

bloodaxe

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4229 on: October 23, 2020, 08:28:20 AM »
It's a huge privilege to be able to shut off the news and stop paying attention to what is going on just because it doesn't personally affect you. I can agree that to a certain extent, unplugging is good for your mental health, and going down a rabbit hole of reading every single article on a topic is unproductive. But you can't just plop your head in the sand and be completely unaware of the struggles people are facing and fail to do your part to help.
If you are informed about the issues, you can vote, you can write to your representatives, you can volunteer your time, donate your money, share your point of view and bring awareness to others. Sure, it's easier not to, but I'd argue it's our responsibility as citizens to be aware of what is going on and contribute to the extent we are able.

This might be true if the news gave important daily updates, but it doesn't. It's mostly fear mongering and lazy speculation.

For example: I glanced at a TV the other day, where some anchors were talking about a Trump tweet. If I already know that Trump is corrupt, why do I need to hear daily updates about how he tweeted or said something bad? Is it important to watch a segment dissecting a 256 character tweet?

I also don't buy your needing to be informed about issues to be involved politically. I have certain family members who believe in certain conspiracy theories who regularly volunteer and donate money. I do not consider them to be well informed.

My unpopular opinion: If the political climate is affecting someone mentally, I strongly encourage them to distance themselves from the process. Don't vote and don't watch the news. Spend time with things you love and your family and friends. Sure people on the internet might call you "privileged", "irresponsible", or "not a team player". But that's better then putting yourself through mental anguish.

I'm getting sick of it too. But to not cover it is to normalize it. The root of the issue is that the President says stupid and easily falsifiable things on a daily basis and 40% of people nod along. This is an existential threat. The root of the issue is that we have an emerging pandemic risk that is killing hundreds of thousands more Americans this year than we would have otherwise expected.

If someone is truly in a negative mental health state over following the news and politics, than I agree, this person should check out. At least for a while.

I don't think that describes most of the news-followers on this forum though. I don't see the "low info diet" stuff as some kind of free-thinker's epiphany. To me, it's just someone who is unable to cope with the complexity of a world that goes beyond, "Do work at computer, get hefty paycheck, vanguard returns 9% a year."

I always took the "low info diet" to mean only knowing about important information. Compared to "high info diet" of watching/reading the news daily.

A person with a low info diet would know:
* Trump was impeached
* Coronavirus is killing people worldwide, vaccine is coming next year
* Protests are ongoing across the US

A person with a high info diet would know:
* What arguments were made during impeachment, which politician voted which y/n for removal, and opinions that were held by politicians and celebrities.
* Exact numbers and percentages of coronavirus transmission. What non local governments are doing (or not doing) to prevent the spread.
* What opinions the left and the right share about certain incidents at the protests.

I don't see how a person with a low info diet in this example is ill informed.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4230 on: October 23, 2020, 08:37:15 AM »
I always took the "low info diet" to mean only knowing about important information. Compared to "high info diet" of watching/reading the news daily.

A person with a low info diet would know:
* Trump was impeached
* Coronavirus is killing people worldwide, vaccine is coming next year
* Protests are ongoing across the US

A person with a high info diet would know:
* What arguments were made during impeachment, which politician voted which y/n for removal, and opinions that were held by politicians and celebrities.
* Exact numbers and percentages of coronavirus transmission. What non local governments are doing (or not doing) to prevent the spread.
* What opinions the left and the right share about certain incidents at the protests.

I don't see how a person with a low info diet in this example is ill informed.

I agree with this. The authors of one my books (can't even remember) recommended reading The Economist and the Atlantic every two weeks or so just to stay relatively informed. On my first go-around, I have a decent sense of the last couple weeks -- SCOTUS nominee passed committee, debate was last night, Trump still doesn't have a COVID-plan -- without knowing the underlying details. It's fine.

mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4231 on: October 23, 2020, 08:49:37 AM »
I always took the "low info diet" to mean only knowing about important information. Compared to "high info diet" of watching/reading the news daily.

A person with a low info diet would know:
* Trump was impeached
* Coronavirus is killing people worldwide, vaccine is coming next year
* Protests are ongoing across the US

A person with a high info diet would know:
* What arguments were made during impeachment, which politician voted which y/n for removal, and opinions that were held by politicians and celebrities.
* Exact numbers and percentages of coronavirus transmission. What non local governments are doing (or not doing) to prevent the spread.
* What opinions the left and the right share about certain incidents at the protests.

I don't see how a person with a low info diet in this example is ill informed.

If those are your definitions then it's certainly hard for me to find an issue with that. FWIW, I follow the news very closely and I almost never watch it on TV. Jon Stewart was right when he said that 24/7 news was built for one event, and that was 9/11.

Watching a Nightly News show on any of the major networks (I'm even including Fox News here) one a week or so probably keeps you reasonably informed. But there is no reason to watch multiple hours a day and to devour the panel shows unless you're watching it like sports fans watch ESPN.

So you and I probably agree that being glued to opinion shows for hours a week is bad. My issue is that the media constantly comes under fire and I think they generally do a fantastic job. Print journalists at quality newspapers do a great job. NPR does a great job. Most states have an "explanatory journalism" outlet that does a great job. These are the media too.

Lastly, I wouldn't necessarily categorize the high info diet stuff as unimportant. I happen to know just how imperiled the ACA was in the votes that took place in 2017. I know how the CBO scored the GOP replacement plan and I know how the makeup of the Senate at the time basically determined the fate of ACA. I even know which Senators defected. I think that certainly fits under your first bullet point. But anyway, my point is that this is important in some way. Just this week we've had posters on this forum making some pretty ignorant comments about the ACA, contributing to this mistaken idea that if the ACA was repealed, future early retirees could just hop on to Medicaid. The ACA expanded Medicaid eligibility so that wouldn't work. We have very smart people making long term plans based on bad information here.

The second point on COVID is even more glaring. We have an 85 page thread of astounding ignorance right here that chronicles our path from zero to a quarter million deaths by the end of the year. It's my job right now to follow COVID, so I don't blame others for not tracking it as obsessively as I have, but inherent skepticism of the media has not been helpful.

bloodaxe

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4232 on: October 23, 2020, 08:49:45 AM »
I always took the "low info diet" to mean only knowing about important information. Compared to "high info diet" of watching/reading the news daily.

A person with a low info diet would know:
* Trump was impeached
* Coronavirus is killing people worldwide, vaccine is coming next year
* Protests are ongoing across the US

A person with a high info diet would know:
* What arguments were made during impeachment, which politician voted which y/n for removal, and opinions that were held by politicians and celebrities.
* Exact numbers and percentages of coronavirus transmission. What non local governments are doing (or not doing) to prevent the spread.
* What opinions the left and the right share about certain incidents at the protests.

I don't see how a person with a low info diet in this example is ill informed.

I agree with this. The authors of one my books (can't even remember) recommended reading The Economist and the Atlantic every two weeks or so just to stay relatively informed.

That was in Digital Minimalism. Newport recommends to read the news at certain periods during the week. I think one example he gave was someone reading the Economist and Atlantic.

slappy

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4233 on: October 23, 2020, 08:51:27 AM »
It's a huge privilege to be able to shut off the news and stop paying attention to what is going on just because it doesn't personally affect you. I can agree that to a certain extent, unplugging is good for your mental health, and going down a rabbit hole of reading every single article on a topic is unproductive. But you can't just plop your head in the sand and be completely unaware of the struggles people are facing and fail to do your part to help.
If you are informed about the issues, you can vote, you can write to your representatives, you can volunteer your time, donate your money, share your point of view and bring awareness to others. Sure, it's easier not to, but I'd argue it's our responsibility as citizens to be aware of what is going on and contribute to the extent we are able.

This might be true if the news gave important daily updates, but it doesn't. It's mostly fear mongering and lazy speculation.

For example: I glanced at a TV the other day, where some anchors were talking about a Trump tweet. If I already know that Trump is corrupt, why do I need to hear daily updates about how he tweeted or said something bad? Is it important to watch a segment dissecting a 256 character tweet?

I also don't buy your needing to be informed about issues to be involved politically. I have certain family members who believe in certain conspiracy theories who regularly volunteer and donate money. I do not consider them to be well informed.

My unpopular opinion: If the political climate is affecting someone mentally, I strongly encourage them to distance themselves from the process. Don't vote and don't watch the news. Spend time with things you love and your family and friends. Sure people on the internet might call you "privileged", "irresponsible", or "not a team player". But that's better then putting yourself through mental anguish.

I'm getting sick of it too. But to not cover it is to normalize it. The root of the issue is that the President says stupid and easily falsifiable things on a daily basis and 40% of people nod along. This is an existential threat. The root of the issue is that we have an emerging pandemic risk that is killing hundreds of thousands more Americans this year than we would have otherwise expected.

If someone is truly in a negative mental health state over following the news and politics, than I agree, this person should check out. At least for a while.

I don't think that describes most of the news-followers on this forum though. I don't see the "low info diet" stuff as some kind of free-thinker's epiphany. To me, it's just someone who is unable to cope with the complexity of a world that goes beyond, "Do work at computer, get hefty paycheck, vanguard returns 9% a year."

Wow, that's a bit hash.

mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4234 on: October 23, 2020, 08:52:25 AM »
I agree with this. The authors of one my books (can't even remember) recommended reading The Economist and the Atlantic every two weeks or so just to stay relatively informed. On my first go-around, I have a decent sense of the last couple weeks -- SCOTUS nominee passed committee, debate was last night, Trump still doesn't have a COVID-plan -- without knowing the underlying details. It's fine.

This sounds reasonable to me. Personally, I wouldn't consider anyone who reads the Economist to be "low info" ;). You're probably better informed than most people honestly. Just as an aside, I allowed myself the "treat" of completely checking out of the ACB nomination. I'm not happy about it, but I consider it inevitable. The party in power has the numbers. Any time spent on that issue would be better spent elsewhere.

mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4235 on: October 23, 2020, 08:57:59 AM »
Wow, that's a bit hash.

Which part?

Just Joe

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4236 on: October 23, 2020, 09:09:14 AM »
6 months. That’s how long we could wait.

Pretty much. NY Times: At Capacity’: Covid-19 Patients Push U.S. Hospitals to Brink

Quote
WEST ALLIS, Wis. — A hospital in Idaho is 99 percent full and warning that it may have to transfer coronavirus patients to hospitals in Seattle and Portland, Ore. Medical centers in Kansas City, Mo., turned away ambulances on a recent day because they had no room for more patients. And in West Allis, just outside Milwaukee, an emergency field hospital erected on the grounds of the Wisconsin State Fair admitted its first virus patient this week.

More than 41,000 people are currently hospitalized with the coronavirus in the United States, a 40 percent rise in the past month, and cooler weather that pushes more people indoors is threatening to expand the outbreak still more. At least 14 states saw more people hospitalized for the virus on a day in the past week than on any other day in the pandemic, according to the Covid Tracking Project. Seven more states are nearing their peaks.

Meanwhile apparently state Republicans are calling the field hospital a political stunt... Not helpful Republicans!

OtherJen

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4237 on: October 23, 2020, 09:15:07 AM »
I agree with this. The authors of one my books (can't even remember) recommended reading The Economist and the Atlantic every two weeks or so just to stay relatively informed. On my first go-around, I have a decent sense of the last couple weeks -- SCOTUS nominee passed committee, debate was last night, Trump still doesn't have a COVID-plan -- without knowing the underlying details. It's fine.

This sounds reasonable to me. Personally, I wouldn't consider anyone who reads the Economist to be "low info" ;). You're probably better informed than most people honestly. Just as an aside, I allowed myself the "treat" of completely checking out of the ACB nomination. I'm not happy about it, but I consider it inevitable. The party in power has the numbers. Any time spent on that issue would be better spent elsewhere.

I agree that this seems reasonable.

I don’t watch broadcast TV; we don’t have cable and don’t even have a broadcast antenna set up. We pay for a couple of online newspaper subscriptions and I peruse those for a bit each day. I know people who have Fox News or MSNBC on in the background all day long. That would drive me absolutely insane. I’ve tuned out the ACB circus and most of the debates (I think I’ve watched about 20 minutes total of all 4 debates). Those issues are done deals at this point and out of my locus of control. I’m very interested about the state orders regarding poll safety and election law, so I prioritize state/local news (print only). Sometimes I come on here to joke/vent about some Trump ridiculousness that pops up on my radar because I have few opportunities to do so in the physical realm.

@ReadySetMillionaire , I hear you. I have a parent in cancer treatment right now, and have lost several people this year (not to COVID, oddly). It’s such a hard year, with so much loss. Do what you need to.

For me, staying reasonably informed is helpful 1) because I volunteer very heavily in a local non-partisan political org and am working the election. Things are changing so quickly and there’s so much misinformation, and our org has a responsibility to put out correct info. 2) Because it helps me feel a bit less isolated. Normally, my main social outlets are two choirs and a hospice bedside singers group. All of those are completely off the table until the pandemic is under control. But what works for me may not work at all for someone else.

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4238 on: October 23, 2020, 09:25:40 AM »
Plenty of essential workers have been going about their lives pretty normally since this started and been very successful at it. If you're not in a high risk group, and isolation is getting to be too much, mask up, stay 6ft apart, and go live your life.

My local live theatre is closed, my choir and my social groups are on Zoom.  So "normal" just isn't out there.

My grandparents died in the Spanish Flu epidemic.  I respect the lethality of some viruses.  Diseases can cause damage that lasts the rest of a person's life, rheumatic fever (heart damage), polio (delayed muscle issues) and chickenpox (shingles) are just 3 examples.  So I respect the fact that Covid can cause long-lasting health effects.

For those who hate masks (not those here, I know) isn't it a good thing they weren't living in London during the Blitz?

OtherJen

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4239 on: October 23, 2020, 09:31:08 AM »
Plenty of essential workers have been going about their lives pretty normally since this started and been very successful at it. If you're not in a high risk group, and isolation is getting to be too much, mask up, stay 6ft apart, and go live your life.

My local live theatre is closed, my choir and my social groups are on Zoom.  So "normal" just isn't out there.

My grandparents died in the Spanish Flu epidemic.  I respect the lethality of some viruses.  Diseases can cause damage that lasts the rest of a person's life, rheumatic fever (heart damage), polio (delayed muscle issues) and chickenpox (shingles) are just 3 examples.  So I respect the fact that Covid can cause long-lasting health effects.

For those who hate masks (not those here, I know) isn't it a good thing they weren't living in London during the Blitz?

Right. I wonder how the “but muh freeedom” anti-maskers would have reacted to blackout laws during the World Wars. Also an issue of national security, also the government telling you what to do with your private property (turn off outside lights, hang and use blackout curtains). I wonder how many whiny “but I don’t WANNA” anti-curtain protestors there were back then.

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4240 on: October 23, 2020, 09:42:04 AM »
Plenty of essential workers have been going about their lives pretty normally since this started and been very successful at it. If you're not in a high risk group, and isolation is getting to be too much, mask up, stay 6ft apart, and go live your life.

My local live theatre is closed, my choir and my social groups are on Zoom.  So "normal" just isn't out there.

My grandparents died in the Spanish Flu epidemic.  I respect the lethality of some viruses.  Diseases can cause damage that lasts the rest of a person's life, rheumatic fever (heart damage), polio (delayed muscle issues) and chickenpox (shingles) are just 3 examples.  So I respect the fact that Covid can cause long-lasting health effects.

For those who hate masks (not those here, I know) isn't it a good thing they weren't living in London during the Blitz?

Right. I wonder how the “but muh freeedom” anti-maskers would have reacted to blackout laws during the World Wars. Also an issue of national security, also the government telling you what to do with your private property (turn off outside lights, hang and use blackout curtains). I wonder how many whiny “but I don’t WANNA” anti-curtain protestors there were back then.

They would have kept lights on and then used their 2nd amendment rights to simply shoot down the Nazi bombers of course.  If Britain had more lax gun laws they would have ended the second world war in a couple weeks.

former player

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4241 on: October 23, 2020, 09:43:57 AM »


Right. I wonder how the “but muh freeedom” anti-maskers would have reacted to blackout laws during the World Wars. Also an issue of national security, also the government telling you what to do with your private property (turn off outside lights, hang and use blackout curtains). I wonder how many whiny “but I don’t WANNA” anti-curtain protestors there were back then.
Well, the whole thing was very thoroughly policed by the ARP (Air Raid Precautions) Wardens, but the main incentive was not giving the Luftwaffe a signal as to where to drop their bombs.

OtherJen

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4242 on: October 23, 2020, 09:45:08 AM »


Right. I wonder how the “but muh freeedom” anti-maskers would have reacted to blackout laws during the World Wars. Also an issue of national security, also the government telling you what to do with your private property (turn off outside lights, hang and use blackout curtains). I wonder how many whiny “but I don’t WANNA” anti-curtain protestors there were back then.
Well, the whole thing was very thoroughly policed by the ARP (Air Raid Precautions) Wardens, but the main incentive was not giving the Luftwaffe a signal as to where to drop their bombs.

I know why it was done. I wonder if there were any overgrown toddlers who refused to comply and whined about personal freedom.

bloodaxe

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4243 on: October 23, 2020, 09:49:01 AM »


Right. I wonder how the “but muh freeedom” anti-maskers would have reacted to blackout laws during the World Wars. Also an issue of national security, also the government telling you what to do with your private property (turn off outside lights, hang and use blackout curtains). I wonder how many whiny “but I don’t WANNA” anti-curtain protestors there were back then.
Well, the whole thing was very thoroughly policed by the ARP (Air Raid Precautions) Wardens, but the main incentive was not giving the Luftwaffe a signal as to where to drop their bombs.

I know why it was done. I wonder if there were any overgrown toddlers who refused to comply and whined about personal freedom.

Not arguing against national security restrictions, but it's a lot easier to be afraid of giant planes with bombs vs. an invisible virus.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4244 on: October 23, 2020, 09:50:49 AM »


Right. I wonder how the “but muh freeedom” anti-maskers would have reacted to blackout laws during the World Wars. Also an issue of national security, also the government telling you what to do with your private property (turn off outside lights, hang and use blackout curtains). I wonder how many whiny “but I don’t WANNA” anti-curtain protestors there were back then.
Well, the whole thing was very thoroughly policed by the ARP (Air Raid Precautions) Wardens, but the main incentive was not giving the Luftwaffe a signal as to where to drop their bombs.

I know why it was done. I wonder if there were any overgrown toddlers who refused to comply and whined about personal freedom.

I'm sure there were some ..... right up until they heard planes overhead! It's a bit more immediate than invisible germs.

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4245 on: October 23, 2020, 10:01:32 AM »
That logic would make a lot more sense if we didn't have over a million dead people from that invisible virus.  The virus is invisible, but the wake of its destruction is very visible and tangible. 

OtherJen

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4246 on: October 23, 2020, 10:07:41 AM »
That logic would make a lot more sense if we didn't have over a million dead people from that invisible virus.  The virus is invisible, but the wake of its destruction is very visible and tangible.

Yep. Just under 3000 people were killed on 9/11 and TSA was completely overhauled, the Patriot Act was signed into law, and we started a war in Afghanistan.

We're at 200,000+ COVID deaths this year in the US alone, and an unknown number of cases of long-term COVID-related morbidity. We won't understand the full extent of the latter for years. It's a serious national health and security issue.

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4247 on: October 23, 2020, 10:10:11 AM »
That logic would make a lot more sense if we didn't have over a million dead people from that invisible virus.  The virus is invisible, but the wake of its destruction is very visible and tangible.

Yep. Just under 3000 people were killed on 9/11 and TSA was completely overhauled, the Patriot Act was signed into law, and we started a war in Afghanistan.

We're at 200,000+ COVID deaths this year in the US alone, and an unknown number of cases of long-term COVID-related morbidity. We won't understand the full extent of the latter for years. It's a serious national health and security issue.

But you haven't started any new wars over it yet!  #silverlining

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4248 on: October 23, 2020, 10:13:31 AM »
Read up on militia road blocks and the next civil war. There are those few who want to Army cosplay... 

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4249 on: October 23, 2020, 10:28:58 AM »
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/hospitals-are-full-but-some-parts-of-idaho-refuse-mask-rules-2/

i know it's idaho and all and very right leaning, but to have a board member spout off this kind of BS (highlighted in bold) is truly stunning. what a dumb country we have.
Quote

BOISE — Moments after hearing an Idaho hospital was overwhelmed by COVID-19 patients and looking at sending people as far away as Seattle for care, members of a regional health department board voted Thursday to repeal a local mask mandate.

“Most of our medical surgical beds at Kootenai Health are full,” Panhandle Health District epidemiologist Jeff Lee told board members in the state’s third most populated county.

The hospital in Coeur d’Alene reached 99% capacity a day earlier, even after doubling up patients in rooms and buying more hospital beds. Idaho is one of several states where a surge of COVID-19 infections is overwhelming hospitals, likely in part because cooler weather is sending people indoors, U.S. health officials said.

“We’re facing staff shortages, and we have a lot of physician fatigue. This has been going on for seven months — we’re tired,” Lee said.

He introduced several doctors who testified about the struggle COVID-19 patients face, the burden on hospitals and how masks reduce the spread of the virus.

But the board voted 4-3 to end the mask mandate. Board members overseeing the operations of Idaho’s public health districts are appointed by county commissioners and not required to have any medical experience.

Board member Walt Kirby said he was giving up on the idea of controlling the spread of coronavirus.

“I personally do not care whether anybody wears a mask or not. If they want to be dumb enough to walk around and expose themselves and others, that’s fine with me,” Kirby said. “Nobody’s wearing the damned mask anyway. … I’m sitting back and watching them catch it and die. Hopefully I’ll live through it.”

Another member, Allen Banks, denied COVID-19 exists.

“Something’s making these people sick, and I’m pretty sure that it’s not coronavirus, so the question that you should be asking is, ‘What’s making them sick?’” he told the medical professionals who testified.

Similar scenes — with doctors and nurses asking officials for help, only to be met with reluctance or even open skepticism — have played out across the conservative state. Idaho is sixth in the nation for new coronavirus cases per capita, with the average number of confirmed cases increasing by more than 55% every day over the past two weeks.

Still, Republican Gov. Brad Little has declined to issue a statewide mask mandate or limit crowd sizes beyond requiring social distancing at large events and in businesses, which is seldom enforced. Instead, Little has left it up to local health departments and school districts to make the tough decisions that sometimes come with blowback from the public.

In the southern city of Twin Falls, hospital officials told health board members this week that they too were in danger of being overwhelmed, with one out of every four hospitalized patients sick with COVID-19. The region’s hospitals, operated by St. Luke’s Health System, have been forced to postpone nonemergency surgeries and ship patients elsewhere.

“I want to be very clear: Punting those decisions is saying we’re willing to put that burden on the shoulders of our front-line staff,” Mike Fenello, St. Luke’s vice president of population health, told board members in asking for a mask mandate Wednesday. “Will you please help those on the front lines? They need you to help.”

Instead, board members decided to write a letter to the governor asking him for a statewide mask requirement. The board did restrict indoor gatherings to 50 people, except for grocery stores, schools, religious institutions, polling places and nonprofits.

In central Idaho, Adams County commissioners have approved a resolution rescinding all orders, recommendations and restrictions related to COVID-19.

“And we resolve that Adams County is open for business and back to normal,” the commissioners wrote.

Adams County is very sparsely populated, with about 4,250 residents. So far, it’s been relatively untouched by the virus, with just 32 documented cases.

Health leaders in the Boise region and in eastern Idaho have been more willing to take sometimes unpopular steps. Residents in Ada County, Idaho’s most populated, and Valley County, a resort destination with many visitors, are required to wear masks in public, and health officials have issued safety recommendations to schools.

Idaho reported 987 new COVID-19 cases Thursday, according to a tally by Johns Hopkins University, bringing the total to more than 56,600 since the pandemic began. Infections are thought to be higher because a lack of testing and other factors. At least 553 people have died of the virus, including seven reported Thursday.
Rebecca Boone