Author Topic: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?  (Read 299346 times)

marty998

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4000 on: September 30, 2020, 09:34:38 PM »
When I was 8, had a friend at school, his older brother was riding his bike, got hit by a van, wasnít wearing a helmet.

Kid became a vegetable at 10.

That sort of shit sticks with you for a long time. Always worn a helmet since. Under all circumstances.

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4001 on: October 01, 2020, 07:07:59 AM »
When I was 8, had a friend at school, his older brother was riding his bike, got hit by a van, wasnít wearing a helmet.

Kid became a vegetable at 10.

That sort of shit sticks with you for a long time. Always worn a helmet since. Under all circumstances.

You know that a bike helmet is zero protection against being hit by a van, right?

Please don't get me wrong.  I think wearing a bike helmet is a good idea and (as they're both cheap as well as relatively inconvenient to wear) everyone should wear one . . . but many people have a bizarre idea of what a bike helmet is meant to do.  It's designed to protect your head if you come to a stop on your bike, lean over too far, and smash your head on the curb.  The primary test that is done on bike helmets is dropping them 2 meters.  That's it.

If you're hit a slippery patch on the road and wipe out at speed, it isn't going to do much for you.  If a vehicle hits you, it isn't going to do much for you.  If you panic brake too hard while moving fast and go over the bars, it isn't going to do much for you.  Sure, everyone should wear one because it will probably help a bit.  But it's not going to work miracles.  Expecting a helmet to miraculously cure being hit by a van is crazy . . . and it's distressing how often terrible injuries caused by collisions with vehicles get shrugged off by 'well, he wasn't wearing a helmet'.  As if that makes the outcome of the accident the fault of the cyclist somehow.

Cycling, especially cycling at low speeds (as children do) is a very safe activity.  Your risks of catastrophic head injury is extremely low unless a vehicle is involved.  The best thing to do if you're concerned about collisions with vehicles is to convince more people to ride bikes (even without helmets).  Multiple studies have proven that accidents, injuries, and fatalities go way down when drivers become more used to regularly seeing cyclists on the road.

That's my mini-rant anyway.

waltworks

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4002 on: October 01, 2020, 02:29:58 PM »
It really depends on your use case. I'd have serious problems now if I hadn't worn a helmet when I was a professional cyclist (or at least I believe I'd have serious problems). I probably destroyed 25 or 30 helmets in the last 20 years - every one in crashes just involving me (or occasionally another bike, but never a car). They really are pretty good at reducing the total energy transmitted to your skull/brain, honestly, especially the new MIPS stuff.

That said, Steve's right. They are for you falling over (can easily turn an injury into nothing at all), and as the amount of energy involved increases, they get less and less effective.

It's worth having your kids wear them just to get in the habit, IMO. Most of my bad crashes were *complete* surprises. You can't just decide to be careful that day and be fine - a stick on the trail in a funny spot, or a sudden flat, or whatever will take you down with zero warning.

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bigblock440

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4003 on: October 01, 2020, 03:03:08 PM »
More kids die from bike injuries than have died of covid.

bloodaxe

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4004 on: October 01, 2020, 03:23:38 PM »
More kids die from bike injuries than have died of covid.

Indeed. Kids shouldn't have to wear masks or bike helmets.

Kris

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4005 on: October 01, 2020, 04:07:54 PM »
More kids die from bike injuries than have died of covid.

Indeed. Kids shouldn't have to wear masks or bike helmets.

Or seat belts. Or ride in car seats.

OtherJen

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4006 on: October 01, 2020, 05:10:52 PM »
More kids die from bike injuries than have died of covid.

Indeed. Kids shouldn't have to wear masks or bike helmets.

Or seat belts. Or ride in car seats.

We should probably give all toddlers a fork and knife and turn them loose around the baseboards. No point in using the little plastic outlet covers. Survival of the fittest, amirite?

No point in pool covers or gates, either.

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4007 on: October 01, 2020, 06:20:38 PM »
We've got a pit of wolves in the basement and every time my wife gives birth, we throw the child down among them to see if it'll survive or not.  No luck so far, but we're going to have the baddest ass kindergartner on the playground when this finally succeeds.

RetiredAt63

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4008 on: October 01, 2020, 06:36:27 PM »
We've got a pit of wolves in the basement and every time my wife gives birth, we throw the child down among them to see if it'll survive or not.  No luck so far, but we're going to have the baddest ass kindergartner on the playground when this finally succeeds.

And they will grow up to emulate Farley Mowat or Kevin Costner, eh?

v8rx7guy

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4009 on: October 01, 2020, 11:05:29 PM »
Trump and Melania have tested positive for COVID per his Twitter

Bloop Bloop

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4010 on: October 01, 2020, 11:12:09 PM »
Trump and Melania have tested positive for COVID per his Twitter

I am delighted to hear this.

the_fixer

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4011 on: October 02, 2020, 04:29:38 AM »
Trump and Melania have tested positive for COVID per his Twitter
His advisor Hickís was diagnosed Wednesday, the Trumps on Friday. She traveled with him to the debate on Tuesday and started showing symptoms on Wednesday on the flight back from a rally.

The Trumps were not wearing masks at the debate I am not sure about Hickís or if she was even in the building but I wonder if people at the debate will be quarantined/ tested?

I would assume Hickís was already infected prior to attending the debate based on the average time to show symptoms.

If Biden contracts it holy shit....


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justchristine

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4012 on: October 02, 2020, 04:58:58 AM »
Trump and Melania have tested positive for COVID per his Twitter
His advisor Hickís was diagnosed Wednesday, the Trumps on Friday. She traveled with him to the debate on Tuesday and started showing symptoms on Wednesday on the flight back from a rally.

The Trumps were not wearing masks at the debate I am not sure about Hickís or if she was even in the building but I wonder if people at the debate will be quarantined/ tested?

I would assume Hickís was already infected prior to attending the debate based on the average time to show symptoms.

If Biden contracts it holy shit....


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Back in March I was talking with some co-workers about how shitty our two options were for President.  Covid was just getting started and I joked that with them both being so old, that maybe they both die of Covid and we'd get a do-over.  I would never really wish anyone to die but with this being 2020, it doesn't seem completely out of the realm of possibility.

Kris

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4013 on: October 02, 2020, 05:44:16 AM »
Trump and Melania have tested positive for COVID per his Twitter
His advisor Hickís was diagnosed Wednesday, the Trumps on Friday. She traveled with him to the debate on Tuesday and started showing symptoms on Wednesday on the flight back from a rally.

The Trumps were not wearing masks at the debate I am not sure about Hickís or if she was even in the building but I wonder if people at the debate will be quarantined/ tested?

I would assume Hickís was already infected prior to attending the debate based on the average time to show symptoms.

If Biden contracts it holy shit....


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Back in March I was talking with some co-workers about how shitty our two options were for President.  Covid was just getting started and I joked that with them both being so old, that maybe they both die of Covid and we'd get a do-over.  I would never really wish anyone to die but with this being 2020, it doesn't seem completely out of the realm of possibility.

Especially as Trump was on the same stage as Biden, yelling and spitting. Ugh.

Paper Chaser

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4014 on: October 02, 2020, 06:37:47 AM »
Trump and Melania have tested positive for COVID per his Twitter
His advisor Hickís was diagnosed Wednesday, the Trumps on Friday. She traveled with him to the debate on Tuesday and started showing symptoms on Wednesday on the flight back from a rally.

The Trumps were not wearing masks at the debate I am not sure about Hickís or if she was even in the building but I wonder if people at the debate will be quarantined/ tested?

I would assume Hickís was already infected prior to attending the debate based on the average time to show symptoms.

If Biden contracts it holy shit....


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Back in March I was talking with some co-workers about how shitty our two options were for President.  Covid was just getting started and I joked that with them both being so old, that maybe they both die of Covid and we'd get a do-over.  I would never really wish anyone to die but with this being 2020, it doesn't seem completely out of the realm of possibility.

Especially as Trump was on the same stage as Biden, yelling and spitting. Ugh.

Biden chose not to wear a mask too. Must not have been too concerned about the possibility given the situation.

frugalnacho

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4015 on: October 02, 2020, 07:24:31 AM »
They were socially distanced during the entire debate.  I have no idea how they mingled before and after, but I don't think Trump could have infected Biden, or anyone, during that debate.  I'm sure there was some non-social distancing happening though and everyone's guard was lowered because everyone had been tested.  They didn't count on a trojan rona though. 

Shane

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4016 on: October 02, 2020, 09:47:28 AM »
or best of all, riding a motorcycle with no helmet but a facemask. Yes, that's your greatest risk, COVID-19 virus particles hitting you at 60 mph, not the fatal head injury that could occur with even a minor accident.

I've noticed the same thing and can't wrap my head around it.

Cannot tell you how many masked kids I see outside riding a bike with parents, with no helmet.

Ehhh . . . Bicycle helmets are very different.  When I grew up, wearing a bike helmet just wasn't a thing.  Every kid learned to ride a bike without a helmet, and I don't recall brain injury being a scourge of childhood (granted this may be due to brain injury sustained).  Sure I wear a bike helmet now, and force my kid to do so as well - better safe than sorry.  But it's hard to get terribly upset about a child going under 15 kph falling off a bike on grass or the sidewalk.

A motorcycle is on the road, often going 100kph.  The bike itself weighs many hundred lbs.  All of my friends who ride motorbikes have stories of coming off hard and unexpectedly, and several have had hospitalization because of it.

+1 As kids, we all rode our bikes around the neighborhood without helmets. TBH, I never even realized bicycle helmets were a thing, until maybe around the 90s. Among the group of friends I currently ride with, twice a week, I and some others wear helmets, but a couple of guys do not, which is fine with me. A bike helmet isn't anywhere near 100% protection, but it's better than nothing, IMHO. Just like I don't usually ride in a car without a seatbelt, I wouldn't choose to ride a motorcycle or scooter without a helmet, but I know people who do and, to me, that's fine. I won't be the one taking care of them if they crash and get traumatic brain injury. Recently, I've noticed the price of bicycle helmets in the US is getting pretty fucking ridiculous. Seems like all of the helmets our local bike shop carries are close to $100, if not more. A couple of years ago, my family and I spent a month in Christchurch, NZ, which, BTW, was a great city for cycling. Both my daughter and I got used bikes in Christchurch and rode them around the city, every day. In NZ, because they have universal healthcare, which means the government is responsible for taking care of anyone who crashes his bike and gets badly injured, helmets are mandatory, and all cyclists seem to wear them. Our Airbnb host lent me his helmet, but we had to buy one for our 9 year old daughter. I was AMAZED that at a local shopping mall I was able to purchase a child's bicycle helmet for only NZ$5, which was only about US$3.50. It wasn't like a toy helmet, or something. It was an actual bicycle helmet that looked and felt identical to bicycle helmets I see selling in the US, now, for over US$100. I'm guessing that the NZ government maybe subsidizes the cost of bicycle helmets, in order to make them accessible to everyone and to encourage widespread use? Otherwise, how the hell could a shop in Christchurch afford to sell a bike helmet for only NZ$5? Either that, or we're getting ripped off royally in the US, now.

dandarc

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4017 on: October 02, 2020, 10:00:22 AM »
@Shane - you're buying your stuff at a specialty shop in the US. The least expensive kids bicycle helmet at Walmart.com is $10. Wide selection under $15 that sure look like real bike helmets to my admittedly untrained eye.

frugalnacho

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4018 on: October 02, 2020, 10:02:42 AM »
I was under the impression that helmets have to conform to a minimum safety standard, so the $10 one at walmart is rated sufficiently if the worry is about getting a "cheap helmet".  And yeah, you can get them for $10-15.  Amazon seems to have them from $13, most around $15-20.  I'm sure they also have $100 ones, but they aren't any safer.

mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4019 on: October 02, 2020, 10:13:24 AM »
This thread is a repository of freezing cold takes.

RetiredAt63

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4020 on: October 02, 2020, 12:32:52 PM »
This thread is a repository of freezing cold takes.

Could you translate this into standard English please?

Zamboni

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4021 on: October 02, 2020, 03:50:50 PM »
I'm hoping, probably in vain, that the Prez getting COVID will increase the public mask wearing among his mouth breathing followers.

Stopped at a gas station/quickie mart over the weekend & get inside to grab a drink (unmustachian, I know, lash me with a wet noodle.) Anyways, all 3 relatively older ladies working in there were maskless. Not wearing their masks improperly, which is rampant here, but no masks anywhere in sight.

Beside the fact that we have a citywide mask mandate for businesses, this is a small indoor space with poor ventilation and a steady flow of hundreds of people per day in and out. At the rate we have the virus spreading in our state, those three ladies are 100% doomed to be infected, but they were oblivious.

Shane

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4022 on: October 02, 2020, 06:06:59 PM »
@Shane - you're buying your stuff at a specialty shop in the US. The least expensive kids bicycle helmet at Walmart.com is $10. Wide selection under $15 that sure look like real bike helmets to my admittedly untrained eye.

Cool. That's good to know. The helmet I'm using now I bought at Target for, I think, around $30. At the time I was looking, that seemed like the going price for adult helmets at discount stores, in Hawaii, anyway.

fuzzy math

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4023 on: October 02, 2020, 06:14:28 PM »
I almost cried when a helmet inspection guy threw my kid's nearly brand new (at the time) $80 helmet in the garbage and said it had already sustained too many impacts. My kids treat helmets like kick balls. This reminds me to go to the big box store and get some new ones again. I'm sure helmet inspection guy would not approve of how they look now either.

the_fixer

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4024 on: October 02, 2020, 06:21:47 PM »
I almost cried when a helmet inspection guy threw my kid's nearly brand new (at the time) $80 helmet in the garbage and said it had already sustained too many impacts. My kids treat helmets like kick balls. This reminds me to go to the big box store and get some new ones again. I'm sure helmet inspection guy would not approve of how they look now either.
Helmet police? Where are you located? Do they pull you over or just go door to door checking helmets?

Inquiring minds want to know


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fuzzy math

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4025 on: October 02, 2020, 06:23:49 PM »
I almost cried when a helmet inspection guy threw my kid's nearly brand new (at the time) $80 helmet in the garbage and said it had already sustained too many impacts. My kids treat helmets like kick balls. This reminds me to go to the big box store and get some new ones again. I'm sure helmet inspection guy would not approve of how they look now either.
Helmet police? Where are you located? Do they pull you over or just go door to door checking helmets?

Inquiring minds want to know


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I took my kids to a bike safety fair. The lockdowns haven't gotten quite that bad here yet.

mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4026 on: October 03, 2020, 12:44:47 AM »
This thread is a repository of freezing cold takes.

Could you translate this into standard English please?

So a hot take is like an opinion that's an immediate reaction. Like, hot off the presses. A cold take would be an older opinion. I characterize many of the opinions in this thread as "freezing cold" because we're six months in and they've aged like milk. 25 straight weeks of clear excess mortality.

We've seen less and less of it in recent weeks which is good. But in case anyone is still having doubts, let's revisit this post in three months when we finish out the year with and additional 30K-60K deaths.

RetiredAt63

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4027 on: October 03, 2020, 06:59:50 AM »
This thread is a repository of freezing cold takes.

Could you translate this into standard English please?

So a hot take is like an opinion that's an immediate reaction. Like, hot off the presses. A cold take would be an older opinion. I characterize many of the opinions in this thread as "freezing cold" because we're six months in and they've aged like milk. 25 straight weeks of clear excess mortality.

We've seen less and less of it in recent weeks which is good. But in case anyone is still having doubts, let's revisit this post in three months when we finish out the year with and additional 30K-60K deaths.

Thanks for clarifying.

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4028 on: October 03, 2020, 07:39:53 AM »
This thread is a repository of freezing cold takes.

Could you translate this into standard English please?

So a hot take is like an opinion that's an immediate reaction. Like, hot off the presses. A cold take would be an older opinion. I characterize many of the opinions in this thread as "freezing cold" because we're six months in and they've aged like milk. 25 straight weeks of clear excess mortality.

We've seen less and less of it in recent weeks which is good. But in case anyone is still having doubts, let's revisit this post in three months when we finish out the year with and additional 30K-60K deaths.

I'm not seeing as many arguments that covid is the same as the flu recently.  :P

mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4029 on: October 03, 2020, 10:24:07 AM »
This thread is a repository of freezing cold takes.

Could you translate this into standard English please?

So a hot take is like an opinion that's an immediate reaction. Like, hot off the presses. A cold take would be an older opinion. I characterize many of the opinions in this thread as "freezing cold" because we're six months in and they've aged like milk. 25 straight weeks of clear excess mortality.

We've seen less and less of it in recent weeks which is good. But in case anyone is still having doubts, let's revisit this post in three months when we finish out the year with and additional 30K-60K deaths.

I'm not seeing as many arguments that covid is the same as the flu recently.  :P

Yes. Iím very happy about that. In recent weeks Iíve seen the most discussion happening around school. Iíve largely stayed out of that because I donít have kids. The government basically gave up on trying to help out with stimulus and extended unemployment and many parents rely on school as babysitting so I understand how brutal this must be on them.

waltworks

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4030 on: October 03, 2020, 02:43:43 PM »
Keeping schools closed indefinitely would require a fundamental restructuring of our economy/society, really. It's not a realistic option in the US, for the most part.

-W

Bloop Bloop

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4031 on: October 03, 2020, 06:56:12 PM »
Keeping schools closed indefinitely would require a fundamental restructuring of our economy/society, really. It's not a realistic option in the US, for the most part.

-W

Here in Victoria schools have been closed (other than with a few exceptions, and for a few weeks earlier in the year between our lockdowns) for over six months. That will have an obvious effect on children's learning. Particularly those children living in poor households with poor digital literacy. But even putting that aside, putting kids in their bedroom to learn online from their iPads is a very poor substitute in most cases for face to face learning and the environment of a school.

It is also wreaking havoc on university admissions. These are usually determined by performance in final year assessments and exams. Every final year student here in Victoria is going to be granted "special consideration" and their individual circumstances will be taken into account. There will be less weighting on exam marks. Some assessments can't practically go ahead given lockdown.

What this means, no doubt, is that the range of exam/assessment scores will be attenuated and will converge towards the mean, since there's going to be artificial consideration applied. This is not good for stand-out students who will have wanted the opportunity to learn well and perform well in exams (e.g. to get scholarships at university). They will have less opportunity to shine. It's not good all-round and the children are one of the silent casualties of our policies.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4032 on: October 03, 2020, 07:19:54 PM »
Keeping schools closed indefinitely would require a fundamental restructuring of our economy/society, really. It's not a realistic option in the US, for the most part.

-W

Here in Victoria schools have been closed (other than with a few exceptions, and for a few weeks earlier in the year between our lockdowns) for over six months. That will have an obvious effect on children's learning. Particularly those children living in poor households with poor digital literacy. But even putting that aside, putting kids in their bedroom to learn online from their iPads is a very poor substitute in most cases for face to face learning and the environment of a school.

It is also wreaking havoc on university admissions. These are usually determined by performance in final year assessments and exams. Every final year student here in Victoria is going to be granted "special consideration" and their individual circumstances will be taken into account. There will be less weighting on exam marks. Some assessments can't practically go ahead given lockdown.

What this means, no doubt, is that the range of exam/assessment scores will be attenuated and will converge towards the mean, since there's going to be artificial consideration applied. This is not good for stand-out students who will have wanted the opportunity to learn well and perform well in exams (e.g. to get scholarships at university). They will have less opportunity to shine. It's not good all-round and the children are one of the silent casualties of our policies.

Yep.  The bulk of kids are getting screwed over big time.  The children of the affluent go to private schools.  They're actually in school with significant safety measures.  Their parents are able to work.  This isn't going to affect them so much. 

The public schools are closed. A good sized minority of those kids aren't even showing to the digital sessions .Any bets on what their economic futures will look like as a group?

Edubb20

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4033 on: October 03, 2020, 07:35:31 PM »

Childcare isn't a real crisis. It's a symptom.
In-person schooling isn't a real crisis. It's a symptom.
Wealth inequality is a real crisis.
If the working class could survive off of a single income we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Public schools are childcare for families who can't afford to live on a single income, which is most families at this time. The current system is more product of wealth inequality than it is actual education.I'm a firm believer that 6 hour days, 25-30 students to a classroom, is one of the worst teaching the average child. An ipad likely isn't that much worse, particularly for those who have parent at home.Hope someday, post covid, to see a 3 hour school day, increased trade schooling at the 9-12 level and the complete destruction and reinvention of the university system.

... I'm completely aware that my post has zero practical solutions for someone who has to figure how to get their kid taken care of or educated right now, but i do think we need to zoom out and remember how we got here.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4034 on: October 03, 2020, 07:44:17 PM »
I don't agree with any of that. I went to a public school and really enjoyed the 6 hours of instruction and 3-4 hours of homework each day that I did. Had nothing to do with parental wealth - my parents paid nothing for my tuition. A 3 hour school day would have stunted my educational and intellectual development. The destruction of the university system would have prevented me (again, paying nil fees upfront) from studying a degree which got me a good job out of school. Not all of us want to do trades. Some of us just want to do well in school and then study a professional degree.

Perhaps for the ordinary student, you'd be better off with short school days, emphasis on non-intellectual trades, and an overhaul of the system. But it would be awful for the bright students.

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4035 on: October 04, 2020, 07:14:53 AM »
I don't agree with any of that. I went to a public school and really enjoyed the 6 hours of instruction and 3-4 hours of homework each day that I did. Had nothing to do with parental wealth - my parents paid nothing for my tuition. A 3 hour school day would have stunted my educational and intellectual development. The destruction of the university system would have prevented me (again, paying nil fees upfront) from studying a degree which got me a good job out of school. Not all of us want to do trades. Some of us just want to do well in school and then study a professional degree.

Perhaps for the ordinary student, you'd be better off with short school days, emphasis on non-intellectual trades, and an overhaul of the system. But it would be awful for the bright students.

The really bright kids I've known tend to be bright because they're motivated to learn on their own without much instruction.  Of course, some instruction in school helps to force them to pick up topics they're not naturally interested in to become better rounded . . . but they're likely to be just fine doing distance ed type stuff.

You mention that your parents wealth didn't play a role in your learning . . . and this seems unlikely to me.  I grew up in a very poor community.  Several of my elementary school friend came home each night after school, picked up their infant siblings, changed their diapers, and made themselves dinner most nights.  Mom and dad were working and didn't get home until 6 or 7.  It's important not to forget the less obvious advantages that having wealthy parents give you.

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4036 on: October 04, 2020, 08:05:35 AM »
I don't agree with any of that. I went to a public school and really enjoyed the 6 hours of instruction and 3-4 hours of homework each day that I did. Had nothing to do with parental wealth - my parents paid nothing for my tuition. A 3 hour school day would have stunted my educational and intellectual development. The destruction of the university system would have prevented me (again, paying nil fees upfront) from studying a degree which got me a good job out of school. Not all of us want to do trades. Some of us just want to do well in school and then study a professional degree.

Perhaps for the ordinary student, you'd be better off with short school days, emphasis on non-intellectual trades, and an overhaul of the system. But it would be awful for the bright students.


The really bright kids I've known tend to be bright because they're motivated to learn on their own without much instruction.  Of course, some instruction in school helps to force them to pick up topics they're not naturally interested in to become better rounded . . . but they're likely to be just fine doing distance ed type stuff.

You mention that your parents wealth didn't play a role in your learning . . . and this seems unlikely to me.  I grew up in a very poor community.  Several of my elementary school friend came home each night after school, picked up their infant siblings, changed their diapers, and made themselves dinner most nights.  Mom and dad were working and didn't get home until 6 or 7.  It's important not to forget the less obvious advantages that having wealthy parents give you.
Agree. My parents were teachers, and they were quite clear that the bright kids would be OK whatever schooling they had, it was the average to below average kids that needed the leg up.  And of course these days money substitutes for brains, all too often.

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4037 on: October 04, 2020, 09:37:00 AM »
I don't agree with any of that. I went to a public school and really enjoyed the 6 hours of instruction and 3-4 hours of homework each day that I did. Had nothing to do with parental wealth - my parents paid nothing for my tuition. A 3 hour school day would have stunted my educational and intellectual development. The destruction of the university system would have prevented me (again, paying nil fees upfront) from studying a degree which got me a good job out of school. Not all of us want to do trades. Some of us just want to do well in school and then study a professional degree.

Perhaps for the ordinary student, you'd be better off with short school days, emphasis on non-intellectual trades, and an overhaul of the system. But it would be awful for the bright students.

The really bright kids I've known tend to be bright because they're motivated to learn on their own without much instruction.  Of course, some instruction in school helps to force them to pick up topics they're not naturally interested in to become better rounded . . . but they're likely to be just fine doing distance ed type stuff.

You mention that your parents wealth didn't play a role in your learning . . . and this seems unlikely to me.  I grew up in a very poor community.  Several of my elementary school friend came home each night after school, picked up their infant siblings, changed their diapers, and made themselves dinner most nights.  Mom and dad were working and didn't get home until 6 or 7.  It's important not to forget the less obvious advantages that having wealthy parents give you.

As you said, instruction in school can make a bright child extend his or her learning, and in particular, having a learning environment (best done in person) consisting of other bright peers is likely to spur a bright child's motivation. Streaming has been shown to help bright students quite a bit. The reason streaming is controversial is that it harms below-average students in the process.

The bright senior students in Victoria are being done a particular kind of disservice because the attenuation of everyone's exam marks (plus the lack of face-to-face teaching which must inevitably impinge on their exam study and exam prep) will, like I said, give students less chance/opportunity to shine. That means it will be harder for them to achieve scholarships and distinctions which can have financial consequences.

Also, on your last point, my parents were not wealthy. They are now, but when I was 5, or 10, or 15, they were anything but. I went to public schools all the way through, my parents spent nothing on school fees or tuition, and in fact I stayed home alone every afternoon until dinnertime since my parents were both working. The parental "privilege" that I got had little to do with money: rather, it was that my parents read to me; took me to the library every single week; and kept me healthy so that I could focus on school. That did not take "wealth" to achieve, only parental prudence.

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4038 on: October 04, 2020, 09:53:34 AM »
... I'm completely aware that my post has zero practical solutions for someone who has to figure how to get their kid taken care of or educated right now

Yes, that was my point. You might not think in person school as currently configured is the best thing, but it's a hell of a lot better than what amounts to no school at all for the bottom half of the income distribution in the US. Reconfiguring our entire economy so that parents can afford more time for their kids is a great goal. It's also not helpful right now. Keeping the (even if you think it's terribly flawed) primary education system functioning at least for elementary aged kids in person should be a primary goal right now.

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4039 on: October 04, 2020, 12:26:53 PM »
Also, on your last point, my parents were not wealthy. They are now, but when I was 5, or 10, or 15, they were anything but. I went to public schools all the way through, my parents spent nothing on school fees or tuition, and in fact I stayed home alone every afternoon until dinnertime since my parents were both working. The parental "privilege" that I got had little to do with money: rather, it was that my parents read to me; took me to the library every single week; and kept me healthy so that I could focus on school. That did not take "wealth" to achieve, only parental prudence.

Bloop, I didn't/don't know your parents or their financial situation at any point in their lives.  So if you say they weren't wealthy then I'm forced to take your word for it.  Good for them for doing what they could to help you get ahead!

But the 'parental prudence' you're talking about is very difficult for many poor families.  It's hard to read to your kid each night when you work nights and have four or five kids, it's hard to take your kid to the library on the weekend when you work weekends, it's hard to keep a kid healthy when you've got little money and time for home made meals/sports programs, it's hard to help a kid focus on school when you live in a bad/noisy neighbourhood and don't have the cash to move or when you rely on your kids to do things like child care for their siblings.

If you grew up poor, then I'm surprised you are arguing that none of this is a big deal.

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4040 on: October 04, 2020, 04:08:18 PM »
I would say not having four or five kids (if you don't have the time/resources to devote to them) is part of parental prudence.

I wouldn't say I grew up "poor" - I feel my parents started off working class and ended up upper-middle class.

I'm also not saying money doesn't matter at all. I'm saying it doesn't necessarily matter, since libraries, books, public schools and standardised testing are all free. You put it on me that my parents were wealthy, so I made the inverse point. But that doesn't mean that I am saying that as a whole money doesn't matter.

My initial point was that our lockdowns are affecting both poor children (due to the digital divide) and bright children (due to the lack of dedicated teaching resources) and of course there is some overlap between those two groups but there is also plenty of non-overlap.

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4041 on: October 04, 2020, 04:46:37 PM »
I would say not having four or five kids (if you don't have the time/resources to devote to them) is part of parental prudence.

And I would say itís part of privilege. Lots of low income parents donít have the luxury of affording birth control, or the education and knowledge to do any family planning.

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4042 on: October 04, 2020, 04:50:58 PM »
I would say not having four or five kids (if you don't have the time/resources to devote to them) is part of parental prudence.

And I would say itís part of privilege. Lots of low income parents donít have the luxury of affording birth control, or the education and knowledge to do any family planning.

Condoms aren't very expensive...   can you expand on the cost thing?      On the surface it doesn't seem very hard to understand that if you're having trouble with the costs of 1 kid then you shouldn't have more.

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4043 on: October 04, 2020, 05:10:25 PM »
I would say not having four or five kids (if you don't have the time/resources to devote to them) is part of parental prudence.

And I would say itís part of privilege. Lots of low income parents donít have the luxury of affording birth control, or the education and knowledge to do any family planning.

Condoms aren't very expensive...   can you expand on the cost thing?      On the surface it doesn't seem very hard to understand that if you're having trouble with the costs of 1 kid then you shouldn't have more.
Iím going to assume this is a good faith question, but there are several factors. Many men hate condoms and donít/wonít use them. Family planning is not a concept for a lot of uneducated folks, so they donít stop to discuss whether they should bring a child into the family, they just donít use any protection. Birth control pills are often not covered by insurance, or low income folks donít have insurance so thatís often not an option. If your parents had you young, youíre statistically likely to also start having children quite young and teenagers donít usually see those consequences coming because they have teenage brains which arenít fully developed. And so on and so forth. Our country has generally done a terrible job at sex Ed and family planning in school (abstinence only being still taught in many schools - highly ineffective), and so the problems compound.

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4044 on: October 04, 2020, 05:26:26 PM »
I would say not having four or five kids (if you don't have the time/resources to devote to them) is part of parental prudence.

And I would say itís part of privilege. Lots of low income parents donít have the luxury of affording birth control, or the education and knowledge to do any family planning.

Condoms aren't very expensive...   can you expand on the cost thing?      On the surface it doesn't seem very hard to understand that if you're having trouble with the costs of 1 kid then you shouldn't have more.
Iím going to assume this is a good faith question, but there are several factors. Many men hate condoms and donít/wonít use them. Family planning is not a concept for a lot of uneducated folks, so they donít stop to discuss whether they should bring a child into the family, they just donít use any protection. Birth control pills are often not covered by insurance, or low income folks donít have insurance so thatís often not an option. If your parents had you young, youíre statistically likely to also start having children quite young and teenagers donít usually see those consequences coming because they have teenage brains which arenít fully developed. And so on and so forth. Our country has generally done a terrible job at sex Ed and family planning in school (abstinence only being still taught in many schools - highly ineffective), and so the problems compound.

You're also responding to a Canadian poster. The right to birth control is still in question here in the USA.

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4045 on: October 04, 2020, 05:29:14 PM »
"Hating condoms" is not really an excuse, though, is it? Unless you're going to say that impulse control/ability to communicate about sex entails some form of "privilege", which to me really stretches the definition of privilege.

Likewise the lack of discussion of whether one should bring a child into the family.


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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4046 on: October 04, 2020, 06:27:11 PM »
...

My initial point was that our lockdowns are affecting both poor children (due to the digital divide) and bright children (due to the lack of dedicated teaching resources) and of course there is some overlap between those two groups but there is also plenty of non-overlap.

I agree with half of this statement.  But only the part about the digital divide.  I will also add that in Victoria, the government has given out dongles and devices to thousands of disadvantaged kids who didn't have access to them.  That doesn't mean they are now suddenly a digital native and have no disadvantage, but it does go some way to helping with the divide.

As for the part about high flyers in year 12 not being recognised, and not having the dedicated teaching resources that they would normally get, I can only assume it is a long time since you were in a classroom.  My wife is teaching year 12 Mathematics, with a high flyer in her class.  He is now able to contact her more easily than before, with face to face or screen to screen communication rather than in the past - email, or earlier waiting for a class.  He gets better and faster help for the few questions he does actually have.  He may (or may not) be one of those written up in the paper. 

Ultimately your assumptions are based on your own world views.  I have a number of students who prefer online learning for some of their classes.  I have a number of students who would have dominated a normal classroom who have been much quieter in the online environment, allowing others to get a chance. 

It is just different.  Better for some, worse for others.  One of the most revealing things is that parents can no longer say they were unaware that their kids were hard to get to work, hard to keep focused, and were behind in their literacy or numeracy.  They have seen exactly what their kids are like in class.  Not all of them like it.

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4047 on: October 05, 2020, 02:12:18 AM »
As much as I hate how this pandemic has killed so many people and messed up most people's lives:

My daughter is doing much better in online school than she did in traditional school. She is fairly introverted and I realize now how stressful her giant public school was for her. I knew it was stressful before just from her stories and behavior, but I just didn't know how much better she could feel and achieve. Before the change to online school she was a B/C student. Now she is earning straight A's, and she pulled all of her grades up to A's in the spring once the switch to online school was made. The social stresses and bullying during times like lunch and between classes are non-existent now. The only thing she misses about live school is sports, as far as I can tell.

My son is having a really rough time now. He is very extroverted and loved the social aspects of school. He is making an effort to do his work, but listening to the teachers drone with nothing else happening is boring him to tears. He's really trying to do well, but he tells me daily that he hates it, something I never heard from him before. On the plus side, some of his best friends are not very serious students, so being physically isolated from them has helped him take schoolwork more seriously.

Everyone is different.

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4048 on: October 05, 2020, 03:09:34 AM »
As much as I hate how this pandemic has killed so many people and messed up most people's lives:

My daughter is doing much better in online school than she did in traditional school. She is fairly introverted and I realize now how stressful her giant public school was for her. I knew it was stressful before just from her stories and behavior, but I just didn't know how much better she could feel and achieve. Before the change to online school she was a B/C student. Now she is earning straight A's, and she pulled all of her grades up to A's in the spring once the switch to online school was made. The social stresses and bullying during times like lunch and between classes are non-existent now. The only thing she misses about live school is sports, as far as I can tell.

My son is having a really rough time now. He is very extroverted and loved the social aspects of school. He is making an effort to do his work, but listening to the teachers drone with nothing else happening is boring him to tears. He's really trying to do well, but he tells me daily that he hates it, something I never heard from him before. On the plus side, some of his best friends are not very serious students, so being physically isolated from them has helped him take schoolwork more seriously.

Everyone is different.


+1  3 out of 4 are doing well for us online (2 are in College 2 in HS) . What helped matters the most was having going through it in spring, summer off.  schools got a lot more prepared both where I live and where my kids out of state attend school. Our HS kids started in School learning but were in a State (Wisconsin) that is sadly really seeing a rise and they have gone back to virtual after a month in. But as I said its really run well now compared to the first go around. And there in public schools.

I grew up very poor and hardly ever saw my parents. College was never talked about but learning to be a hard work was emphasized as well as discipline and being held accountable. Personally I think parents involvement not matter how busy they are is the biggest factor in at least going on from one level of education to the next. I never wanted to let my parents down because they did what they could to put food on the table and there was a respectful fear there. And the schools were bad to say the least I even got stabbed in the sternum fortunately on the way home from school jumped in an alley. And back then people would have more kids to get more money from the state which is now changed in alot of ways. So in my view there are alot of factors going into it and I have seen plenty of entitled kids with bigger life long problems or different problems as those struggling with money.

On the helmet thing I ride on average 4xs a week and hardly see anyone who doesn't wear one. We always made our kids wear one as well because not only do they add as stated a line of protection from falls which kids do a lot of but at least there more stylish then when we were growing up and looked like wearing a big cue-tip on your head. And kids as you know dont want to look like a dork.

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4049 on: October 05, 2020, 04:18:57 AM »
"Hating condoms" is not really an excuse, though, is it? Unless you're going to say that impulse control/ability to communicate about sex entails some form of "privilege", which to me really stretches the definition of privilege.

Likewise the lack of discussion of whether one should bring a child into the family.

I can't speak to being a man. As a woman (especially a young one), I have endured a lot of pressure from men about having sex, and not wearing condoms. As an educated young woman, I did not sleep with those jerks. If my parents or teachers had taught me less about the dangers of giving in to such pressures, then I absolutely might have. So yes, education is a privilege and not everyone gets it. I know you're in Australia, so I have no idea what sex ed is like there, but here in many places it doesn't exist. Rumors persist that if you pull out you can't get pregnant, if she doesn't orgasm she can't get pregnant etc. In fact, I once worked with a 24 year old who held these beliefs. I'm not just talking about teens. If Australia is doing better, making condoms and other birth control methods available for free, teaching kids the realities about sex....good for you. We aren't.