Author Topic: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?  (Read 248254 times)

MudPuppy

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3350 on: August 03, 2020, 11:12:55 AM »
My personal philosophy is that we can and should both allow immigration/migration and help other countries with infrastructure etc.

MudPuppy

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3351 on: August 03, 2020, 11:13:37 AM »
You donít get points for this? No shit Sherlock that generally speaking, a normal BMI is correlated with better health outcomes. Thumping this drum right now, however is useless.

Well, I've lost ~15 lbs. since the start of the pandemic in the US. I'd say that my survival chances have increased at least moderately.

I highly doubt that the pandemic is going to push people into being healthier, but it's certainly possible for people to improve their survival odds in a short period. So making the point isn't useless.

Congratulations on making progress toward your health goals!

mm1970

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3352 on: August 03, 2020, 11:44:21 AM »
That public health officials might mention that fact, once in a while, along with their other recommendations.

It's not going to stop people from catching the virus, which is the primary issue right now.  I'm seeing testimonials on my military discussion groups from young 20-somethings in peak physical condition whose lungs are now useless after getting COVID.

Nobody's claiming that living healthier will keep people from catching covid. Maher was just pointing out that, "the number one thing you can do to improve your chances, in the event that you get covid, is to be in better general health, and the number one route to that is an improved diet." Maher suggested replacing sugary sodas with water. Seemed like good common sense advice that anyone could easily follow.

Which is something their general practitioner has probably been telling them for years. Clearly Americans don't listen to their doctors. What effect would a complete stranger have telling them the same thing when that doctor has been screaming for the last six months that they could have avoided the virus entirely by wearing a scrap of cloth over their faces?

So, there are many many complicated reasons for obesity in this country.  Just spouting off about it - it's kind of pointless.

- There's lack of education about nutrition (including in most doctors)
- There's decades of the food pyramid with a huge bottom full of grain
- There's sugar, sugar, fried foods, and more sugar
- There's food deserts and poverty.
- There's stress
- There's lack of health care

I've read a lot of interesting books over the years with various tidbits of information.  Do you know that the environment in the womb can increase the risk of obesity of more than one generation?  Right, if your grandmother was pregnant with your mother, THAT environment can affect whether YOU are obese, no matter what the environment in the womb was for YOU.

Most people probably realize that childhood and puberty is when  most of your fat cells come.  Being overweight or obese as a child can forever affect your ability to keep weight off.  Same thing with adults.  Once you have been fat, your body often forever is affected by what you eat.  "Formerly overweight" people and "never overweight" people do not metabolize food in the same way.

Have you ever seen pictures of third world countries with really skinny children and fat adult women?  Newsflash, the mothers aren't eating their kids' food.  Obesity is a feature of poverty, not a bug.

You want to do something about obesity, start with poverty and health care.

boy_bye

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3353 on: August 03, 2020, 11:55:42 AM »
Eating healthier, exercising, quitting smoking, living as healthy a life as possible, lowers risk of negative outcomes from covid and everything else. Seems like common sense.

And none of these things reliably cause a person to lose weight.

There's a difference between advocating for folks to adopt healthier habits and telling them to change the size and shape of their bodies when there is no reliable medical protocol to do that.

Health <> weight

boy_bye

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3354 on: August 03, 2020, 11:58:10 AM »
That public health officials might mention that fact, once in a while, along with their other recommendations.

It's not going to stop people from catching the virus, which is the primary issue right now.  I'm seeing testimonials on my military discussion groups from young 20-somethings in peak physical condition whose lungs are now useless after getting COVID.

Nobody's claiming that living healthier will keep people from catching covid. Maher was just pointing out that, "the number one thing you can do to improve your chances, in the event that you get covid, is to be in better general health, and the number one route to that is an improved diet." Maher suggested replacing sugary sodas with water. Seemed like good common sense advice that anyone could easily follow.

Which is something their general practitioner has probably been telling them for years. Clearly Americans don't listen to their doctors. What effect would a complete stranger have telling them the same thing when that doctor has been screaming for the last six months that they could have avoided the virus entirely by wearing a scrap of cloth over their faces?

So, there are many many complicated reasons for obesity in this country.  Just spouting off about it - it's kind of pointless.

- There's lack of education about nutrition (including in most doctors)
- There's decades of the food pyramid with a huge bottom full of grain
- There's sugar, sugar, fried foods, and more sugar
- There's food deserts and poverty.
- There's stress
- There's lack of health care

I've read a lot of interesting books over the years with various tidbits of information.  Do you know that the environment in the womb can increase the risk of obesity of more than one generation?  Right, if your grandmother was pregnant with your mother, THAT environment can affect whether YOU are obese, no matter what the environment in the womb was for YOU.

Most people probably realize that childhood and puberty is when  most of your fat cells come.  Being overweight or obese as a child can forever affect your ability to keep weight off.  Same thing with adults.  Once you have been fat, your body often forever is affected by what you eat.  "Formerly overweight" people and "never overweight" people do not metabolize food in the same way.

Have you ever seen pictures of third world countries with really skinny children and fat adult women?  Newsflash, the mothers aren't eating their kids' food.  Obesity is a feature of poverty, not a bug.

You want to do something about obesity to help people of all sizes have better health outcomes, start with poverty and health care.

Thanks for this post. Made one small correction because obesity in and of itself is not actually a health problem.

boy_bye

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3355 on: August 03, 2020, 12:06:55 PM »
Lots of info out there that shows a huge portion of what we think of as obesity-related health problems, actually represent anti-fat bias playing out in medical care.

Covid-specific:
https://twitter.com/rfrosencrans/status/1289598476649525248
https://www.wired.com/story/covid-19-does-not-discriminate-by-body-weight/

In general:
https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/everything-you-know-about-obesity-is-wrong/


DadJokes

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3356 on: August 03, 2020, 12:30:24 PM »
The Huffpost article, which you've shared multiple times in the forum, is about 95% fluff. It's difficult to take an article seriously when that article spends the vast majority of its time trying to make emotional arguments.

bloodaxe

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3357 on: August 03, 2020, 12:45:46 PM »
In my opinion, the obesity health problem in the US is mostly from people living in car-centric cities.

If everyone got out of their mother lovin' cars and onto a bike or walked we would drop a lot of weight.

deborah

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3358 on: August 03, 2020, 01:06:38 PM »
The world is on course to reduce our population - it was widely reported recently, and max pop is expected in 2064, which isnít that far away - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/07/200715150444.htm

Your Bangladeshi coming to America WILL consume what Americans do of things that matter environmentally - for instance - https://www.acrwebsite.org/volumes/12199/volumes/sv08/SV-08

Most people appear to be putting on weight rather than taking it off due to covid19. There have been a number of newspaper articles about this, but Iím not sure of any studies. In the few years before covid19 I had managed to get my weight down quite a bit, but itís currently going back up. Iím still doing healthy stuff - going for walks every day, eating five servings of vegetables every day... but thereís less to do apart from stuff around the house because every single one of my outside activities have shut down. I suspect this is also the case for older people who are living independently. Activities havenít restarted because they are in the ďat riskĒ group.

boy_bye

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3359 on: August 03, 2020, 01:07:39 PM »
The Huffpost article, which you've shared multiple times in the forum, is about 95% fluff. It's difficult to take an article seriously when that article spends the vast majority of its time trying to make emotional arguments.

I'm sure that the many scientists who engage in qualitative research and journalists who interview actual people with actual experiences will be happy to change their vocations now that they know that a random dude on the internet believes their work to be "fluff."

I'm also not sure how that article, which is chock full not only of fluff actual peoples's stories but also tons of facts, figures, and historical context, could be read as fluff. My guess is you didn't bother to read it because Fat People Bad So Why Bother To Understand Anything About Them  Į\_(ツ)_/Į
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 01:11:47 PM by madgeylou »

boy_bye

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3360 on: August 03, 2020, 01:07:59 PM »
In my opinion, the obesity health problem in the US is mostly from people living in car-centric cities.

If everyone got out of their mother lovin' cars and onto a bike or walked we would drop a lot of weight.

That opinion is worth exactly the amount that I paid to read it.

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3361 on: August 03, 2020, 01:31:13 PM »
In my opinion, the obesity health problem in the US is mostly from people living in car-centric cities.

If everyone got out of their mother lovin' cars and onto a bike or walked we would drop a lot of weight.

That opinion is worth exactly the amount that I paid to read it.

Madgeylou, I realize from your comments every time that it cones up that obesity is an issue very close to your heart.  In some cases this leads to strangely aggressive posts directed towards others, like this one.  If you want, I can dig up multiple studies that show weight loss, stress reduction, and improved heart health of people who commute by bike rather than automobile.  On average, people do in fact drop weight when they become less sedentary.

boy_bye

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3362 on: August 03, 2020, 02:53:11 PM »
In my opinion, the obesity health problem in the US is mostly from people living in car-centric cities.

If everyone got out of their mother lovin' cars and onto a bike or walked we would drop a lot of weight.

That opinion is worth exactly the amount that I paid to read it.

Madgeylou, I realize from your comments every time that it cones up that obesity is an issue very close to your heart.  In some cases this leads to strangely aggressive posts directed towards others, like this one.  If you want, I can dig up multiple studies that show weight loss, stress reduction, and improved heart health of people who commute by bike rather than automobile.  On average, people do in fact drop weight when they become less sedentary.

The question isn't whether some people lose weight when they commute by bike (I never did!) but why is weight loss always assumed to be a worthwhile and achievable goal for fat people.

As you state above, health outcomes can be improved by doing things like riding bikes and walking and getting other forms of exercise. This is true for the vast majority of people regardless of their weight. Most people of all sizes in the US especially would benefit from doing more exercise.

At the same time, we know that although exercise does correlate to healthier outcomes, it does not often correlate to long-term weight loss. Sometimes it even correlates to weight gain.

We also know that, quite often, when fat people do get out to exercise, we are subjected to abuse, ridicule, concern-trolling, people being like "keep going, you can do it!" and all kinds of condescending and hurtful shit.

So ... there's a health protocol called exercise, that everyone would benefit from, but only one category of people is shamed for NOT doing it, and that same category of people is also shamed when they DO do it. Who doesn't see how fucked up this is?

And none of it leads to weight loss for the vast majority of people. It may make them healthier, but by and large, it doesn't make them slimmer.

So if what we really care about is people being healthy and not just people not being fat, we should be encouraging everyone to have healthier habits, take a walk, keep trying to quit smoking, introduce more nutritious foods into their diets when they can ... but no, instead we just shit on fat people and talk about how lazy they are and how all the bad things that happen to them are their own damn fault. Sure. Because no one skinny has ever gotten sick and died.

THIS is the point I keep trying to make. You can't tell how healthy anyone is by simply looking at the size of their body. And to keep harping on fat people to sacrifice endlessly to change their body size when it's clear that this is not possible for the majority of us is simply cruel.

And yes, this is a topic close to my heart because I and most of the people I know have been discriminated against for my entire life. It's not "strangely aggressive" to stand up for myself and others when folks express ill-informed opinions that actually, materially hurt us.

When y'all stop saying uninformed, incorrect, and harmful shit, I will stop with my "strange aggression" that is actually rooted in just trying to survive in a world that has conditioned almost everyone to exclude me based on the size of my body.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled armchair epidemiology-ing.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 02:56:14 PM by madgeylou »

NorthernBlitz

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3363 on: August 03, 2020, 03:24:36 PM »
In my opinion, the obesity health problem in the US is mostly from people living in car-centric cities.

If everyone got out of their mother lovin' cars and onto a bike or walked we would drop a lot of weight.

I agree that people (including myself) are generally too sedentary (especially during covid).

But, losing weight is like ~ 90% about what you eat and ~ 10% exercise.

A marathon burns ~ 2,600 calories(1). It takes ~ 3,500 calories to burn about 1 pound of fat (2).

(1) https://www.theactivetimes.com/how-many-calories-does-running-marathon-burn#:~:text=Well%2C%20exact%20calorie%20burn%20will,calories%20for%20the%20entire%20race. Note: this says a marathon equivalent to ~ 8.6 slices of pizza.

(2) https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/weight-loss/in-depth/calories/art-20048065#:~:text=Because%203%2C500%20calories%20equals%20about,to%202%20pounds%20a%20week.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 03:43:51 PM by NorthernBlitz »

NorthernBlitz

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3364 on: August 03, 2020, 03:26:54 PM »
In my opinion, the obesity health problem in the US is mostly from people living in car-centric cities.

If everyone got out of their mother lovin' cars and onto a bike or walked we would drop a lot of weight.

That opinion is worth exactly the amount that I paid to read it.

Madgeylou, I realize from your comments every time that it cones up that obesity is an issue very close to your heart.  In some cases this leads to strangely aggressive posts directed towards others, like this one.  If you want, I can dig up multiple studies that show weight loss, stress reduction, and improved heart health of people who commute by bike rather than automobile.  On average, people do in fact drop weight when they become less sedentary.

The question isn't whether some people lose weight when they commute by bike (I never did!) but why is weight loss always assumed to be a worthwhile and achievable goal for fat people.

As you state above, health outcomes can be improved by doing things like riding bikes and walking and getting other forms of exercise. This is true for the vast majority of people regardless of their weight. Most people of all sizes in the US especially would benefit from doing more exercise.

At the same time, we know that although exercise does correlate to healthier outcomes, it does not often correlate to long-term weight loss. Sometimes it even correlates to weight gain.

We also know that, quite often, when fat people do get out to exercise, we are subjected to abuse, ridicule, concern-trolling, people being like "keep going, you can do it!" and all kinds of condescending and hurtful shit.

So ... there's a health protocol called exercise, that everyone would benefit from, but only one category of people is shamed for NOT doing it, and that same category of people is also shamed when they DO do it. Who doesn't see how fucked up this is?

And none of it leads to weight loss for the vast majority of people. It may make them healthier, but by and large, it doesn't make them slimmer.

So if what we really care about is people being healthy and not just people not being fat, we should be encouraging everyone to have healthier habits, take a walk, keep trying to quit smoking, introduce more nutritious foods into their diets when they can ... but no, instead we just shit on fat people and talk about how lazy they are and how all the bad things that happen to them are their own damn fault. Sure. Because no one skinny has ever gotten sick and died.

THIS is the point I keep trying to make. You can't tell how healthy anyone is by simply looking at the size of their body. And to keep harping on fat people to sacrifice endlessly to change their body size when it's clear that this is not possible for the majority of us is simply cruel.

And yes, this is a topic close to my heart because I and most of the people I know have been discriminated against for my entire life. It's not "strangely aggressive" to stand up for myself and others when folks express ill-informed opinions that actually, materially hurt us.

When y'all stop saying uninformed, incorrect, and harmful shit, I will stop with my "strange aggression" that is actually rooted in just trying to survive in a world that has conditioned almost everyone to exclude me based on the size of my body.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled armchair epidemiology-ing.

It's probably because weight alone isn't a great measure of health...kind of like how income alone isn't a great measure of financial health.

But weight is easy (and cheap) to measure.

Better measurements of health are probably: BF%, waist circumference, BP, triglycerides, etc.

Kris

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3365 on: August 03, 2020, 04:04:36 PM »
In my opinion, the obesity health problem in the US is mostly from people living in car-centric cities.

If everyone got out of their mother lovin' cars and onto a bike or walked we would drop a lot of weight.

I agree that people (including myself) are generally too sedentary (especially during covid).

But, losing weight is like ~ 90% about what you eat and ~ 10% exercise.

A marathon burns ~ 2,600 calories(1). It takes ~ 3,500 calories to burn about 1 pound of fat (2).

(1) https://www.theactivetimes.com/how-many-calories-does-running-marathon-burn#:~:text=Well%2C%20exact%20calorie%20burn%20will,calories%20for%20the%20entire%20race. Note: this says a marathon equivalent to ~ 8.6 slices of pizza.

(2) https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/weight-loss/in-depth/calories/art-20048065#:~:text=Because%203%2C500%20calories%20equals%20about,to%202%20pounds%20a%20week.

Yes, this is very true. Itís almost impossible to out-run a bad diet. Obesity is mostly about food intake, not exercise level.

StashingAway

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3366 on: August 03, 2020, 06:10:16 PM »
Lots of info out there that shows a huge portion of what we think of as obesity-related health problems, actually represent anti-fat bias playing out in medical care.

In general:
https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/everything-you-know-about-obesity-is-wrong/

I'm trying but failing to see where the controversy lies here. It seems that this article is fully compatible with the science that obesity is heavily correlated to health problems. It's just that we as a culture have addressed it wrong (apparent in the fact that more people get obese every year).

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3367 on: August 03, 2020, 06:34:30 PM »
In my opinion, the obesity health problem in the US is mostly from people living in car-centric cities.

If everyone got out of their mother lovin' cars and onto a bike or walked we would drop a lot of weight.

That opinion is worth exactly the amount that I paid to read it.

Madgeylou, I realize from your comments every time that it cones up that obesity is an issue very close to your heart.  In some cases this leads to strangely aggressive posts directed towards others, like this one.  If you want, I can dig up multiple studies that show weight loss, stress reduction, and improved heart health of people who commute by bike rather than automobile.  On average, people do in fact drop weight when they become less sedentary.

The question isn't whether some people lose weight when they commute by bike (I never did!) but why is weight loss always assumed to be a worthwhile and achievable goal for fat people.

As you state above, health outcomes can be improved by doing things like riding bikes and walking and getting other forms of exercise. This is true for the vast majority of people regardless of their weight. Most people of all sizes in the US especially would benefit from doing more exercise.

At the same time, we know that although exercise does correlate to healthier outcomes, it does not often correlate to long-term weight loss. Sometimes it even correlates to weight gain.

We also know that, quite often, when fat people do get out to exercise, we are subjected to abuse, ridicule, concern-trolling, people being like "keep going, you can do it!" and all kinds of condescending and hurtful shit.

So ... there's a health protocol called exercise, that everyone would benefit from, but only one category of people is shamed for NOT doing it, and that same category of people is also shamed when they DO do it. Who doesn't see how fucked up this is?

And none of it leads to weight loss for the vast majority of people. It may make them healthier, but by and large, it doesn't make them slimmer.

So if what we really care about is people being healthy and not just people not being fat, we should be encouraging everyone to have healthier habits, take a walk, keep trying to quit smoking, introduce more nutritious foods into their diets when they can ... but no, instead we just shit on fat people and talk about how lazy they are and how all the bad things that happen to them are their own damn fault. Sure. Because no one skinny has ever gotten sick and died.

THIS is the point I keep trying to make. You can't tell how healthy anyone is by simply looking at the size of their body. And to keep harping on fat people to sacrifice endlessly to change their body size when it's clear that this is not possible for the majority of us is simply cruel.

And yes, this is a topic close to my heart because I and most of the people I know have been discriminated against for my entire life. It's not "strangely aggressive" to stand up for myself and others when folks express ill-informed opinions that actually, materially hurt us.

When y'all stop saying uninformed, incorrect, and harmful shit, I will stop with my "strange aggression" that is actually rooted in just trying to survive in a world that has conditioned almost everyone to exclude me based on the size of my body.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled armchair epidemiology-ing.

The post you responded to was talking about dropping weight and attempting to address obesity - not about general unhealthiness.  And what was said in that post was factually accurate (hence the 'strangely aggressive' comment) in that weight loss is achieved my many who become less automobile dependent, but also in that people who use their cars less tend to become physically healthier.

FWIW I agree with you.  People can be kinda porky and be perfectly healthy (and there are many people with a low BMI who are woefully unhealthy).  I've never shamed anyone for trying to improve their health, and am sorry that you've run into folks who would do that.




In my opinion, the obesity health problem in the US is mostly from people living in car-centric cities.

If everyone got out of their mother lovin' cars and onto a bike or walked we would drop a lot of weight.

I agree that people (including myself) are generally too sedentary (especially during covid).

But, losing weight is like ~ 90% about what you eat and ~ 10% exercise.

A marathon burns ~ 2,600 calories(1). It takes ~ 3,500 calories to burn about 1 pound of fat (2).

(1) https://www.theactivetimes.com/how-many-calories-does-running-marathon-burn#:~:text=Well%2C%20exact%20calorie%20burn%20will,calories%20for%20the%20entire%20race. Note: this says a marathon equivalent to ~ 8.6 slices of pizza.

(2) https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/weight-loss/in-depth/calories/art-20048065#:~:text=Because%203%2C500%20calories%20equals%20about,to%202%20pounds%20a%20week.

The numbers being used in the marathon example seem a little odd.

I'm a 200 lb guy.  On Saturdays most of the year I go on a 100 - 160 km bike ride.  According to my heart rate monitor, this ends up burning between 3500 and 5500 calories.  Typically I drop 5 - 10 lbs on a bike ride, and gain back 7-8 lbs by the next day . . . so I'm assuming that's water weight.  Then I need to increase my caloric intake by 7000 for the next week in order to get back to where I started.

My understanding is that running a marathon is typically more taxing than a recreational bike ride.  So I double checked the numbers from here (https://keisan.casio.com/exec/system/1350959101).

For a 6 ft tall, 200 lb man aged 39 . . . who runs at average marathon speed of 5.8 mph (https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/training/marathon/a27787958/average-marathon-finish-time/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20RunRepeat%20data,or%20an%2011.55%20minute%20mile.).  Which puts the calories burned at over 3600.  So that marathon number that was given seems off by about a third.  If you run faster than average, this number will also go up.  And of course, this is only the calories burned during activity - it doesn't count the extended calorie burn that goes on for several hours after you have ramped up your metabolism by being active. 

Diet is of primary importance if your only goal is to lose weight.  Exercise plays a bigger part than many realize though.  And as madgeylou pointed out, losing weight doesn't mean you're healthy.  If your goal is to be a healthy human being you should exercise frequently and make good eating choices.

StashingAway

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3368 on: August 03, 2020, 06:42:02 PM »
The Huffpost article, which you've shared multiple times in the forum, is about 95% fluff. It's difficult to take an article seriously when that article spends the vast majority of its time trying to make emotional arguments.

I'm sure that the many scientists who engage in qualitative research and journalists who interview actual people with actual experiences will be happy to change their vocations now that they know that a random dude on the internet believes their work to be "fluff."

I'm also not sure how that article, which is chock full not only of fluff actual peoples's stories but also tons of facts, figures, and historical context, could be read as fluff. My guess is you didn't bother to read it because Fat People Bad So Why Bother To Understand Anything About Them  Į\_(ツ)_/Į

Ok, so I'm going to try to approach this as best one can over the internet. That piece has some heartwrenching anecdotes. It plays out in real terms the trials of trying to live a fulfilling human life but feeling like society is rejecting you. In many ways, it feels unfair... we are all bound by luck. Where we were born, what decade we were born in, our ancestors... none of these things were chosen by us. They all have significant impact on our lives and are largely unrecognized as such.

Clearly this is a broad human phenomenon because so many people are getting obese. We are not significantly different people than we were two generations ago. We are genetically the same. A person is not worse than their grandparents because they are heavier. We could say something if this were individual, but this is happening on a national and global scale.

We are living in a society that has typically been focused on personal autonomy and actions. It is ingrained in our forming that decisions are yours alone and you sink or swim based on them. Everyone is equal, no one is royalty, and the dream is having the opportunity to rise to the top. So when someone is overweight, we default to this line of thinking. It seems like it is a personal decision. But taken a step back it is clear that this is some external factor brought upon us. There's no statistical possibility that we are collectively way worse at eating than our parents and grandparents. And that is something that should be recognized. Everyone has merit by being a human and trying their hardest. We are all in this together.

And on a personal level, comparison is the thief of joy. There are definite issues with feeling like you are not worthy and turning that into a spiral of de-motivation. Looking in a mirror and feeling that you are so far away from some cultural line that has been drawn can be completely defeating. So it seems best to re-frame it to feel at peace with your current situation and find a way to be a good person to yourself and those around you.

With all of that said, there is significant issues with embracing "obesity" as an identity in and of itself. It is not healthy. Sure, there are some "healthy obese" data points, but by enlarge it is an overall signal health problem. Being at peace with oneself does not invalidate huge swaths of science saying that, in general, obesity is not good. It may be a messy data point, but if it's the only one we are working with, then it has a pretty good shot of predicting many other things. That's not making any claims about someones value as a human, or their will power or morality. But the only way to make meaningful sense of the world is to hold some level of truth about it.

Most people who "fat shame" (I use that term loosely, as the article does) and whatnot are not doing so out of malice. They are either trying to do so out of compassion or ignorance. Ignorance in the idea that they don't have a full idea of the external factors that lead to someone's obesity. And compassion in that they genuinely want the person to know that obesity is limiting the amount of value that they can get out of their life. That doesn't excuse the practice. It is aweful and shows a very shallow view of the world. But for the most part people don't wake up and decide that they're going to ruin someone's day.

Take that all for what you will; I do not mean to be overbearing, but I do want to share that being active, fit, and not obese is genuinely a good goal for a myriad of lifestyle and psychological reasons. It should be desired not out of envy, but a goal to feeling better.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 06:47:30 PM by StashingAway »

Villanelle

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3369 on: August 03, 2020, 06:43:38 PM »
I realize that we all have experienced Covid on a huge spectrum of situations.  For me, it has given me much more time and has made working out so much easier.  I'm down about 8 pounds since March.  We purchased an elliptical machine at the beginning of the shutdown, a purchase we'd been researching but accelerated by probably a few months or weeks.  I use it nearly every day.

In addition to weight loss, my overall cardio is markedly better.  No getting winded if I have to go up and down our two flights of stairs a few times.  Much better stamina on the elliptical.  Some of that is probably because I'm not carrying quite as much weight up and down those stairs, but clearly I'm more fit and healthier. 

(I've also been eating much better and somewhat less.  And of course it's all related so there's no way to tell what caused what, in what order.  I was losing weight--slowly, pre Covid. Down about 20 pounds over the last year and a half, but I think the last 10 were a much bigger improvement to my health that the first, because of how I did them.  It wasn't just eating less--it was adding exercise and eating *better* foods, not just less of mostly the same.  I've started adding in more weight training so I expect the loss to slow temporarily, which is fine.  Because I'll still be healthier.)

anni

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3370 on: August 03, 2020, 07:06:24 PM »
I miss going to the climbing gym but not enough to go back. It was the only "exercise" routine that ever got me totally hooked. The gym is open again, but it seems like one of the grossest places I could go right now, what with everyone touching the EXACT same surfaces, and all the ~fluids~ that come out (I've touched other people's blood on the walls before...). You have to wear a mask to go, but even then, I just really don't want to risk getting sick (or getting anyone else sick). I can appreciate that economies are in dire straits right now and I feel exceptionally lucky to still have my job and some stability, but I really wish things would stay closed and that unemployed people could keep getting public support as needed (from taxpayers like me) until a vaccine or cure is available. Maybe I haven't reached Peak Frustration yet or I'm too spoiled by my current lockdown life.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3371 on: August 03, 2020, 07:32:49 PM »
"The very places where we are seeing outbreaks, the very places where we are seeing transmission, are the places that would remain open if we went to a stage four. We shouldn't pretend that a really broad shutdown of industry will address where we are seeing the transmission."
- Chief Health Officer Brett Sutton, July 25th

the state went to stage 4 a week later. It's not just about the expert advice, unfortunately.


Bloop Bloop

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3372 on: August 03, 2020, 08:03:47 PM »
I've lost 5 kilograms during covid and feel a lot better for it. It's mainly through increased daily walking, eating more healthily and concentrating on exercise.

Meanwhile, the Victorian government has announced increased fines for isolation breaches. Which I'm happy with.

But I was just thinking that fines aren't likely to prove a deterrent for a lot of people who don't have the money to pay them (and who can never be forced to pay them in any event). Not paying a fine here in Victoria is not a criminal offence and does not lead to any further sanctions, besides debt recovery proceedings, which still don't have any effect on someone who has no assets. There are lots of stories about people with no assets driving on toll roads and racking up tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in toll fees that remain unpaid.

I think there should be a short jail sentence, say 12 hours, for anyone caught flouting an isolation order. To clarify, these are people who've tested positive and still are outside (or inside but with non-household people present) without a permitted excuse. These are the people who are most dangerous and who are spreading the virus. Jail would be a much better deterrent than a fine that's never going to be paid. We now have pandemic leave for everyone so there's no excuse to not stay home for 2 weeks after a positive test result.

I've never understood why the fine for speeding is the same as that for speeding and getting into an accident. You have to take into account the objective seriousness of the consequences of an offence. Getting into an accident should attract a much higher fine than speeding alone. The same principle applies here.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3373 on: August 03, 2020, 08:24:42 PM »
I've lost 5 kilograms during covid and feel a lot better for it. It's mainly through increased daily walking, eating more healthily and concentrating on exercise.

Meanwhile, the Victorian government has announced increased fines for isolation breaches. Which I'm happy with.

But I was just thinking that fines aren't likely to prove a deterrent for a lot of people who don't have the money to pay them (and who can never be forced to pay them in any event). Not paying a fine here in Victoria is not a criminal offence and does not lead to any further sanctions, besides debt recovery proceedings, which still don't have any effect on someone who has no assets. There are lots of stories about people with no assets driving on toll roads and racking up tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in toll fees that remain unpaid.

I think there should be a short jail sentence, say 12 hours, for anyone caught flouting an isolation order. To clarify, these are people who've tested positive and still are outside (or inside but with non-household people present) without a permitted excuse. These are the people who are most dangerous and who are spreading the virus. Jail would be a much better deterrent than a fine that's never going to be paid. We now have pandemic leave for everyone so there's no excuse to not stay home for 2 weeks after a positive test result.

I've never understood why the fine for speeding is the same as that for speeding and getting into an accident. You have to take into account the objective seriousness of the consequences of an offence. Getting into an accident should attract a much higher fine than speeding alone. The same principle applies here.

This is cute. You have zero credibility, given your history of bragging about flouting the rules. It's funny that you want to crack down on other people doing the same thing.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3374 on: August 03, 2020, 08:48:46 PM »
Meanwhile, the Victorian government has announced increased fines for isolation breaches. Which I'm happy with.
On awaiting a test, or testing positive, you must not leave your house for any reason, on pain of a large fine. Of course, if you don't get tested then you don't suffer this restriction. So people will not get tested. They'll still be infectious, of course.

I don't think this was the outcome the government was hoping for. This is why parliament must remain sitting: we all need someone to point out the fucking obvious to us from time to time.

HBFIRE

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3375 on: August 03, 2020, 09:19:27 PM »
well some good news.  Cases and positivity rate are dropping pretty fast even with testing now surpassing 1M/day and rising.  Looks like this curve should be headed downward fast.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3376 on: August 03, 2020, 09:34:39 PM »
I've lost 5 kilograms during covid and feel a lot better for it. It's mainly through increased daily walking, eating more healthily and concentrating on exercise.

Meanwhile, the Victorian government has announced increased fines for isolation breaches. Which I'm happy with.

But I was just thinking that fines aren't likely to prove a deterrent for a lot of people who don't have the money to pay them (and who can never be forced to pay them in any event). Not paying a fine here in Victoria is not a criminal offence and does not lead to any further sanctions, besides debt recovery proceedings, which still don't have any effect on someone who has no assets. There are lots of stories about people with no assets driving on toll roads and racking up tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in toll fees that remain unpaid.

I think there should be a short jail sentence, say 12 hours, for anyone caught flouting an isolation order. To clarify, these are people who've tested positive and still are outside (or inside but with non-household people present) without a permitted excuse. These are the people who are most dangerous and who are spreading the virus. Jail would be a much better deterrent than a fine that's never going to be paid. We now have pandemic leave for everyone so there's no excuse to not stay home for 2 weeks after a positive test result.

I've never understood why the fine for speeding is the same as that for speeding and getting into an accident. You have to take into account the objective seriousness of the consequences of an offence. Getting into an accident should attract a much higher fine than speeding alone. The same principle applies here.

This is cute. You have zero credibility, given your history of bragging about flouting the rules. It's funny that you want to crack down on other people doing the same thing.

We've had this discussion a million times. The rules I was "flouting" (although I wasn't even breaching the rules) were different because I had never tested positive, I had never shown symptoms, I wasn't required to lockdown, I wasn't required to not socialise [back then socialising was permitted, even without masks] and I objectively lacked the risk factors that these high-risk carriers have.

I get what you're saying - why should I get to "flout"** rules when others don't - and the answer is that I have low risk factors and for that reason I have an exemption from a lot of the rules. Don't blame me for not being an abattoir worker who lives in northwest Melbourne with a large extended family.

**For example, I'm a sole trader working alone with no public contact. Therefore I get to still work on-site (in my office). I get to still drive past curfew if I want to do late night work, which I often have to do. No doubt you will call this "flouting" the rules, but it's actually a specific exemption within the rules, which I'm navigating well. The exemptions were made for low-risk sole traders like me. If you don't like, take it up with the government.

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cerat0n1a

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3378 on: August 04, 2020, 12:27:08 AM »
Most rich countries already have a fertility rate well below replacement level.

Not just rich countries. More than half of the world's countries (countries where more than half of the world's population live, too) have birth rates below replacement rates, including places like Bangladesh & Vietnam, and places like Iran where you might think the religious influence would keep the birth rate high. Once people get out of absolute poverty, seems like they choose to have fewer children without any need for draconian policies.

Shane

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3379 on: August 04, 2020, 12:49:13 AM »
Most rich countries already have a fertility rate well below replacement level.

Not just rich countries. More than half of the world's countries (countries where more than half of the world's population live, too) have birth rates below replacement rates, including places like Bangladesh & Vietnam, and places like Iran where you might think the religious influence would keep the birth rate high. Once people get out of absolute poverty, seems like they choose to have fewer children without any need for draconian policies.

That sounds like good news.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3380 on: August 04, 2020, 01:58:48 AM »
well some good news.  Cases and positivity rate are dropping pretty fast even with testing now surpassing 1M/day and rising.  Looks like this curve should be headed downward fast.

Do I need to remind you of how focused you have been on hospitalistion and death rates? Apparently, the cases and positivity rates were inaccurate...... unless the hospitalisation/death rates are no longer supporting your narrative. Ffs.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3381 on: August 04, 2020, 02:00:10 AM »
I've lost 5 kilograms during covid and feel a lot better for it. It's mainly through increased daily walking, eating more healthily and concentrating on exercise.

Meanwhile, the Victorian government has announced increased fines for isolation breaches. Which I'm happy with.

But I was just thinking that fines aren't likely to prove a deterrent for a lot of people who don't have the money to pay them (and who can never be forced to pay them in any event). Not paying a fine here in Victoria is not a criminal offence and does not lead to any further sanctions, besides debt recovery proceedings, which still don't have any effect on someone who has no assets. There are lots of stories about people with no assets driving on toll roads and racking up tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in toll fees that remain unpaid.

I think there should be a short jail sentence, say 12 hours, for anyone caught flouting an isolation order. To clarify, these are people who've tested positive and still are outside (or inside but with non-household people present) without a permitted excuse. These are the people who are most dangerous and who are spreading the virus. Jail would be a much better deterrent than a fine that's never going to be paid. We now have pandemic leave for everyone so there's no excuse to not stay home for 2 weeks after a positive test result.

I've never understood why the fine for speeding is the same as that for speeding and getting into an accident. You have to take into account the objective seriousness of the consequences of an offence. Getting into an accident should attract a much higher fine than speeding alone. The same principle applies here.

This is cute. You have zero credibility, given your history of bragging about flouting the rules. It's funny that you want to crack down on other people doing the same thing.

We've had this discussion a million times. The rules I was "flouting" (although I wasn't even breaching the rules) were different because I had never tested positive, I had never shown symptoms, I wasn't required to lockdown, I wasn't required to not socialise [back then socialising was permitted, even without masks] and I objectively lacked the risk factors that these high-risk carriers have.

I get what you're saying - why should I get to "flout"** rules when others don't - and the answer is that I have low risk factors and for that reason I have an exemption from a lot of the rules. Don't blame me for not being an abattoir worker who lives in northwest Melbourne with a large extended family.

**For example, I'm a sole trader working alone with no public contact. Therefore I get to still work on-site (in my office). I get to still drive past curfew if I want to do late night work, which I often have to do. No doubt you will call this "flouting" the rules, but it's actually a specific exemption within the rules, which I'm navigating well. The exemptions were made for low-risk sole traders like me. If you don't like, take it up with the government.


Waaah! I'm different! I'm a special case! How dare you apply standards to meeeeee that you apply to other people! Waaaaaaaaah!

marty998

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3382 on: August 04, 2020, 05:20:31 AM »
Most rich countries already have a fertility rate well below replacement level.

Not just rich countries. More than half of the world's countries (countries where more than half of the world's population live, too) have birth rates below replacement rates, including places like Bangladesh & Vietnam, and places like Iran where you might think the religious influence would keep the birth rate high. Once people get out of absolute poverty, seems like they choose to have fewer children without any need for draconian policies.

That sounds like good news.

I didn't believe this so I went and looked it up. It appears so - Bangladeshi fertility rate is currently estimated to be 2.05, Vietnam 2.06, Iran hovering at about 2.

No surprise the top 20 fertility rates are African countries, who also account for the majority of the "youngest" countries with the median woman coming into her peak fertility years. Africa as a whole is still above 4.0... it's a useful metric for development/progress.

The "oldest" countries are Japan, Italy, Germany, Greece, Portugal and Spain, with median ages all over 45.


NorthernBlitz

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3383 on: August 04, 2020, 06:34:08 AM »
Diet is of primary importance if your only goal is to lose weight.  Exercise plays a bigger part than many realize though.  And as madgeylou pointed out, losing weight doesn't mean you're healthy.  If your goal is to be a healthy human being you should exercise frequently and make good eating choices.

I agree with this and won't quibble about the numbers for running marathons (2/3 of a pound of fat vs. 1 pound of fat).

I agree that reducing fat isn't the only thing that people should be doing to get healthy, but given the obesity rate in the US I think it's probably a more pressing concern. I also think that losing weight will end up increasing people's exercise because being having too much fat generally makes it less appealing to do things like go run around / ride a bike with the kids (or go to the gym and work out when that becomes possible again).

And when people exercise for the purpose of losing weight, it's super disheartening when they don't lose weight. This is probably because they aren't concentrating on what they're eating because the marketing we see is usually about some new fad exercise equipment that's going to get you in shape.

When I was in grad school, I started to run 5 km / workday on the university track. But then, I'd get a Blizzard at DQ 50% of the time when waiting to take the commuter train home to treat myself for the workouts I was doing. This was stupid and somehow I was surprised when I wasn't losing weight.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 06:42:08 AM by NorthernBlitz »

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3384 on: August 04, 2020, 07:47:58 AM »
Diet is of primary importance if your only goal is to lose weight.  Exercise plays a bigger part than many realize though.  And as madgeylou pointed out, losing weight doesn't mean you're healthy.  If your goal is to be a healthy human being you should exercise frequently and make good eating choices.

I agree with this and won't quibble about the numbers for running marathons (2/3 of a pound of fat vs. 1 pound of fat).

I agree that reducing fat isn't the only thing that people should be doing to get healthy, but given the obesity rate in the US I think it's probably a more pressing concern. I also think that losing weight will end up increasing people's exercise because being having too much fat generally makes it less appealing to do things like go run around / ride a bike with the kids (or go to the gym and work out when that becomes possible again).

And when people exercise for the purpose of losing weight, it's super disheartening when they don't lose weight. This is probably because they aren't concentrating on what they're eating because the marketing we see is usually about some new fad exercise equipment that's going to get you in shape.

When I was in grad school, I started to run 5 km / workday on the university track. But then, I'd get a Blizzard at DQ 50% of the time when waiting to take the commuter train home to treat myself for the workouts I was doing. This was stupid and somehow I was surprised when I wasn't losing weight.

I largely agree with your post here.

From a purely aesthetic standpoint, people typically don't want to be frail and weakly . . . they want to look less jiggly.  When sedentary people start to train they usually start to change their body composition (putting on muscle while losing fat) which reduces waist size, tightens up the stuff that jiggles, and increases the amount they can eat each day without adding fat to their frame.  So, you can easily be working really hard and getting discouraged that you don't see pounds drop off at the scale . . . even though you're getting healthier and moving towards looking better at the same time.

That's why my recommendation for people is to record and track athletic performance rather than monitor weight loss.  If you used to take 10 minutes to run a mile, and now you can do it in 9 or 8, you have significantly improved your fitness and overall health.  In my experience, this type of measurement is much more consistent that a measure of weight (which can fluctuate due to salt intake, water retention, fiber eaten in the past few days, etc.).  The beauty of doing this is that you will improve for a while but eventually plateau in your athletic progression if you stick with a poor diet . . . but by that time you're already living a healthier lifestyle, and the dietary changes can be introduced in a more gradual and measured way with a clear performance goal rather than a (typically arbitrary) weight goal that is subject to many confounding factors.

Another benefit to pushing exercise is that for the vast majority of people, exercise is more fun.  When you diet and limit calories*, your body usually punishes you and makes you feel like shit**.  You feel like shit because you are literally starving yourself.  When you move and exercise, positive mood-altering endorphins are released into your body that make you feel better about what you're doing.  When properly scheduled as part of a routine, you can use this mood enhancing, mildly addictive trait of exercise to create and enforce this beneficial habit.


* Not talking about avoiding cake, cookies, brownies, sugary drinks, potato chips, donuts, candies, ice cream, etc. - if you're not already limiting these pretty hard and are trying to lose weight then you're an idiot.  Cutting this sort of poison out of your life usually makes you feel better.  I'm talking about people who are getting 90 - 95% of their calories from real food and then try cutting 250 - 500 cals out each day.

** The exception being if you go really, really far overboard - most people who are anorexic starve themselves for so long that their bodies give up on releasing ghrelins to make them feel hungry and just pump out seratonin to try to make what it sees as your last few starving days on Earth more tolerable.  But very few diets I'm aware of recommend this level and type of extremely dangerous eating behaviour.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3385 on: August 04, 2020, 07:50:45 AM »
I wonder if people who don't like the "lose weight" mantra would be content if the health advice changed from "try to lose weight" to "try to improve your mile time and eat more healthily"?

Would that be a panacea?

PDXTabs

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3386 on: August 04, 2020, 08:18:43 AM »
WRT exercise vs diet, it's entirely true that you can't outrun a bad diet. It's also true that exercise is good for you. Additionally working out during a fasted state can enhance weight loss, muscle gains, and reduce hunger. Likewise increased muscle mass increases your basal metabolic rate.

So, really you need both.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 08:36:47 AM by PDXTabs »

Kyle Schuant

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3387 on: August 04, 2020, 08:45:40 AM »
That's why my recommendation for people is to record and track athletic performance rather than monitor weight loss.  If you used to take 10 minutes to run a mile, and now you can do it in 9 or 8, you have significantly improved your fitness and overall health. 
The reasoning is sound, and is something I pursue with people who come to my gym. Unfortunately, they are a minority. For the general population the question is not what speed they run a mile at, nor even whether they are physically capable of running a mile, but whether they are willing and able to walk a mile in one go.

The general population is in very bad shape, with most over 35 or so having joint problems, and those of all ages being very weak and with poor cardiovascular fitness.

For them, the boring old government recommendations of "150 to 300 minutes of moderate physical activity weekly... 3 cups of vegetables daily..." etc are most appropriate.

Essentially, if own a pair of walking shoes or a bicycle and use them at least three times a week, you are probably in the top quartile of health and fitness in the general population.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3388 on: August 04, 2020, 09:26:46 AM »
That's why my recommendation for people is to record and track athletic performance rather than monitor weight loss.  If you used to take 10 minutes to run a mile, and now you can do it in 9 or 8, you have significantly improved your fitness and overall health. 
The reasoning is sound, and is something I pursue with people who come to my gym. Unfortunately, they are a minority. For the general population the question is not what speed they run a mile at, nor even whether they are physically capable of running a mile, but whether they are willing and able to walk a mile in one go.

The general population is in very bad shape, with most over 35 or so having joint problems, and those of all ages being very weak and with poor cardiovascular fitness.

For them, the boring old government recommendations of "150 to 300 minutes of moderate physical activity weekly... 3 cups of vegetables daily..." etc are most appropriate.

Essentially, if own a pair of walking shoes or a bicycle and use them at least three times a week, you are probably in the top quartile of health and fitness in the general population.

Really? Everyone I meet on a day to day basis (before lockdown, I mean) seems pretty damn fit to me. Late 20s/early 30s crowd, always getting into yoga, hot yoga, meditation, running, biking, gym, whatever. And all those exercise dates during lockdown!

I actually was a slob in my late 20s but since starting my fitness regimen in my early 30s I've lost a few kilos and have never felt better.

Now down to 99kg. Target weight is 90kg. I'm pretty solidly built and 185cm so I think I wear the weight well but I definitely need to get one of those fat-meters and assiduously measure it. Aiming for 15%. Is there any easy way to measure body fat besides the fat-meters?

HBFIRE

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3389 on: August 04, 2020, 10:03:27 AM »

Do I need to remind you of how focused you have been on hospitalistion and death rates? Apparently, the cases and positivity rates were inaccurate...... unless the hospitalisation/death rates are no longer supporting your narrative. Ffs.

Not sure what you mean by narrative.  Just reporting the numbers.  I'm not being emotional about it.  Hospitalizations and deaths are both also decreasing.  This current "wave" appears to be starting a sharp decline, this is welcome news.  Case data, positivity rates, hospitalization data, and death data are all confirming this.  The really good news is we are continuing to ramp up testing (now past 1 M tests/day), and cases are still dropping.



« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 10:07:03 AM by HBFIRE »

bloodaxe

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3390 on: August 04, 2020, 10:03:32 AM »
In my opinion, the obesity health problem in the US is mostly from people living in car-centric cities.

If everyone got out of their mother lovin' cars and onto a bike or walked we would drop a lot of weight.

That opinion is worth exactly the amount that I paid to read it.

Never realized this would be a controversial opinion on this forum.

A large number of MMMs posts mention the health benefits of cycling.

Someone mentioned 10% of weight is from exercise. Well, that's true.

If everyone dropped 10% of their weight, that's still a lot. So my point still stands. Even 5% would be a lot.

Also, I didn't say riding a bike = losing weight. I said car-centric cities = gaining weight. Though I kind of implied that in my second sentence.

With car centric cities, especially in rural areas, the amount of grocery stores and healthy food options is pretty low per square mile.

However, when visiting New York City, Portland, and Denver, I found that I had several options within a 1 mile walk.

Barbaebigode

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3391 on: August 04, 2020, 10:04:50 AM »
That's why my recommendation for people is to record and track athletic performance rather than monitor weight loss.  If you used to take 10 minutes to run a mile, and now you can do it in 9 or 8, you have significantly improved your fitness and overall health. 
The reasoning is sound, and is something I pursue with people who come to my gym. Unfortunately, they are a minority. For the general population the question is not what speed they run a mile at, nor even whether they are physically capable of running a mile, but whether they are willing and able to walk a mile in one go.

The general population is in very bad shape, with most over 35 or so having joint problems, and those of all ages being very weak and with poor cardiovascular fitness.

For them, the boring old government recommendations of "150 to 300 minutes of moderate physical activity weekly... 3 cups of vegetables daily..." etc are most appropriate.

Essentially, if own a pair of walking shoes or a bicycle and use them at least three times a week, you are probably in the top quartile of health and fitness in the general population.

Really? Everyone I meet on a day to day basis (before lockdown, I mean) seems pretty damn fit to me. Late 20s/early 30s crowd, always getting into yoga, hot yoga, meditation, running, biking, gym, whatever. And all those exercise dates during lockdown!

I actually was a slob in my late 20s but since starting my fitness regimen in my early 30s I've lost a few kilos and have never felt better.

Now down to 99kg. Target weight is 90kg. I'm pretty solidly built and 185cm so I think I wear the weight well but I definitely need to get one of those fat-meters and assiduously measure it. Aiming for 15%. Is there any easy way to measure body fat besides the fat-meters?

you can compare yourself with people that have a know body fat %. There are photos for that on the internet. Of course it only works if you don't have a skewed self image.

bloodaxe

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3392 on: August 04, 2020, 10:09:59 AM »
In my opinion, the obesity health problem in the US is mostly from people living in car-centric cities.

If everyone got out of their mother lovin' cars and onto a bike or walked we would drop a lot of weight.

A marathon burns ~ 2,600 calories.


Didn't read the articles, but this is misleading. Maybe a pro level person who weights 120 lbs and has 5% body fat burns this amount.

But I burn ~2500 calories when going on a 13 mile run. And I'm 6 ft 175 lbs.

HBFIRE

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3393 on: August 04, 2020, 10:21:15 AM »
In my opinion, the obesity health problem in the US is mostly from people living in car-centric cities.

If everyone got out of their mother lovin' cars and onto a bike or walked we would drop a lot of weight.

A marathon burns ~ 2,600 calories.


Didn't read the articles, but this is misleading. Maybe a pro level person who weights 120 lbs and has 5% body fat burns this amount.

But I burn ~2500 calories when going on a 13 mile run. And I'm 6 ft 175 lbs.

That figure is based on an average runner.  I think your caloric estimator is probably off, as that figure seems much too high unless your heart rate is on the high side.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 10:23:21 AM by HBFIRE »

bloodaxe

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3394 on: August 04, 2020, 10:24:12 AM »
In my opinion, the obesity health problem in the US is mostly from people living in car-centric cities.

If everyone got out of their mother lovin' cars and onto a bike or walked we would drop a lot of weight.

A marathon burns ~ 2,600 calories.


Didn't read the articles, but this is misleading. Maybe a pro level person who weights 120 lbs and has 5% body fat burns this amount.

But I burn ~2500 calories when going on a 13 mile run. And I'm 6 ft 175 lbs.

That figure is based on an average runner.  I think your caloric estimator is probably off, as that figure seems much too high unless your heart rate is on the high side.

You're right, I just checked and it was 1500.

mm1970

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3395 on: August 04, 2020, 10:25:35 AM »
Quote
Thanks for this post. Made one small correction because obesity in and of itself is not actually a health problem.

This is true.

mm1970

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3396 on: August 04, 2020, 10:33:43 AM »
That's why my recommendation for people is to record and track athletic performance rather than monitor weight loss.  If you used to take 10 minutes to run a mile, and now you can do it in 9 or 8, you have significantly improved your fitness and overall health. 
The reasoning is sound, and is something I pursue with people who come to my gym. Unfortunately, they are a minority. For the general population the question is not what speed they run a mile at, nor even whether they are physically capable of running a mile, but whether they are willing and able to walk a mile in one go.

The general population is in very bad shape, with most over 35 or so having joint problems, and those of all ages being very weak and with poor cardiovascular fitness.

For them, the boring old government recommendations of "150 to 300 minutes of moderate physical activity weekly... 3 cups of vegetables daily..." etc are most appropriate.

Essentially, if own a pair of walking shoes or a bicycle and use them at least three times a week, you are probably in the top quartile of health and fitness in the general population.

I wanted to address this.  What is wrong with boring?   What's wrong with being over 35?  I mean, most people get there eventually.

Look, I'm pretty type-A, and it doesn't always work out for me.  I exercise for me - running, lifting, walking, etc...but I am coming up against age limitations (I'm 50). (Overwork results in Achilles, hip, sciatica, shoulder injuries).

It's fun to work on bringing down my run times...but also injury inducing at my age.  I can do speed work, and it's nice to see my 400m time go down, or my mile time to go down, but it's REALLY hard on my body to try and get my half marathon time to get any lower.  Also, it's not nearly as much fun as just going out and running a long distance and enjoying the scenery.

At some point, MOST people have to come to terms with this.  If you are a super duper competitive person and your lifetime goal is to do a sub-2 half marathon (or sub 1:30), great - but you might want to learn to really enjoy the PROCESS more than the result.  Because results will eventually fade.

Maybe I'm just boring (I know I am), but I'm perfectly happy eating my boring diet with lots of fruits and vegetables, seeing my boring Garmin weekly results of 200-350 minutes of exercise a week, and seeing my amount of weight lifted go up really slowly...enough to get stronger without injury (currently nursing a glute injury because I was careless when returning my 35# KB to it's home during yesterday's workout.)

TLDR; don't diss boring.  Constantly striving for faster/stronger/better is fun, but it really sucks if you get injured or older and haven't learned to enjoy exercise for what it is, without the "thrill".

StashingAway

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3397 on: August 04, 2020, 10:48:33 AM »
That's why my recommendation for people is to record and track athletic performance rather than monitor weight loss.  If you used to take 10 minutes to run a mile, and now you can do it in 9 or 8, you have significantly improved your fitness and overall health. 
The general population is in very bad shape, with most over 35 or so having joint problems, and those of all ages being very weak and with poor cardiovascular fitness.

For them, the boring old government recommendations of "150 to 300 minutes of moderate physical activity weekly... 3 cups of vegetables daily..." etc are most appropriate.


I wanted to address this.  What is wrong with boring?   What's wrong with being over 35?  I mean, most people get there eventually.

TLDR; don't diss boring.  Constantly striving for faster/stronger/better is fun, but it really sucks if you get injured or older and haven't learned to enjoy exercise for what it is, without the "thrill".

I think you misread Kyle's statement. They weren't saying that there is anything wrong with boring. In fact, they were suggesting that it is optimal for the general population. It wasn't a diss as I read it. It was a recognition that most people don't have the motivation or need to track athletic performance as a more specific way to measure health.

JGS1980

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3398 on: August 04, 2020, 11:14:45 AM »
When did this thread become solely about unfattenning the curves? /s

Could we get back to discussing the once in a lifetime global pandemic with nearly 700,000 global deaths?

Jouer

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #3399 on: August 04, 2020, 11:15:01 AM »
One major problem with the government coming out and saying "being fit will help you fight COVID" is that the general public cannot follow multiple messages.

We've seen this when we were first suggested to wear masks. People initially thought that meant masks were better than 6-ft distancing. They couldn't, and some still can't, comprehend that distancing is the number 1 driver of safety but masks are good when you can't stay over 6 ft apart. They heard masks and thought they could skip the distancing piece.

So if we tell people being fit will help you fight COVID, what will happen? Fit people will stop worrying about distancing and masks, which even if they don't get sick, they could still spread the disease.

Not everything is about math, sometimes it's about psychology. (as a math major, this is not easy for me to admit)