How do you prepare for war?

[rocketpj]

My main concern for any potential war is that I don't want my sons' generation to be known as 'the War Generation'.  I am less optimistic that I used to be.

So my preparation has been mostly about talking to my sons about the difference between out cultural ideas of war and the reality of it.  Comparing GI Joe to the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan (e.g. there were no superheroes and nobody knew who would make it to the beach).

Our culture glorifies war, and all cultures encourage young men to join up before their critical thinking skills are fully evolved.  I have nothing against soldiers, but if my kids join I want them to do it with their eyes open and not thinking they will be living a version of MW3.

[Khaetra]

To the OP's original question, how do you prepare for war, is a very good question since we really haven't seen a war on scale with WWII.  The closest thing we've seen was the rationing of gas back in the '70s, but since then the only time we see stampedes of people is when there's a cheap TV on Black Friday at Walmart.  The only war that would really scare me is a nuclear one and if bombs were dropping I would choose to be right where they drop.  I think I'd rather be incinerated instantly than deal with radiation poisoning and the aftermath.

As far as anything else, I keep enough supplies to sustain us for two weeks and I don't let my gas tank drop below half.

[daverobev]

I'm not reading anything new.  There have always been intolerant people, always will be.  You've had the unfortunate experience to personally meet a few.  They are more open about it due to being able to find other intolerant similar people online, being more aggressive, whereas before it was harder to find like-minded people.

The good news is the force of tolerance is far greater now than ever was.  There are legal gay weddings, more support for equality, etc.  Some may go even a tad to far in being too politically correct, imho, but in the overall scheme of things the forces of good far outweigh and outnumber the forces of intolerance.

Am I the only one that finds it rather ironic that we're intolerant of other people's intolerance?  That we think white supremacists are the scum of the earth simply because they think other races are the scum of the earth?

There is a point to be made for hating people because of what they believe rather than what they look like, but then what separates us from those who hate practicioners of certain religions?

I just read a thing today... that you have to be intolerant of intolerance in order to keep it possible for society to be tolerant.

Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

[Digital Dogma]

I've set aside a bag in case of major infrastructure failure, the traditional food/water/shelter/medical supplies set. IMO the most critical items I've got in there are a pry-bar, shovel, and a hatchet. When all else fails these are the items I can use to get around barriers on foot or in a vehicle. Outside of the basics, weapons, and armor, the only other way I'd prepare would be listening to people I know who've actually been to war.

[shelivesthedream]

Someone posted upthread about reading books to help one prepare mentally. I would like to take this opportunity to recommend two really brilliant WW2 books that are relevant to this thread:

Nagasaki by Susan Southard. Tells the stories of several people affected by the bomb from the moment the bomb was dropped until today, in both medical and emotional terms. A totally overwhelming account of the details of the reality of post-nuke life.

The Barbed Wire University by Midge Gillies. How British POWs spent their time in the camps across the theatre of war educating themselves and keeping themselves occupied.

[Gondolin]

I just read a thing today...

+1 you beat me to posting this!

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Having been through a disaster (quake that destroyed city, still being rebuilt), I think that the real way to prepare for any emergency is to have a great network. Yes, you need to have resources to look after yourself for a few weeks as well, but the major factor in how you cope with this sort of thing is the type of friends and neighbours and work mates that you have surrounded yourself with. Have a good, wide, varied network of quality people around you and you will get through anything.

[Bateaux]

I spent over a week last year with flood water coming into my second floor.  The power and infrastructure were out longer.  I had to empty everything from my flooded house and cut out all the walls, floors, ceilings and insulation.  There was over 10 feet of water in my yard and over 8 feet in my home.  Disasters are overrated.   I never spent one night away from my home.  I carried two pistols .22 caliber for vermin, .40 caliber for larger vermin.   Going through previous floods and hurricanes taught me how to handle the big one.  Nothing bad happened.   Boats came by and checked on me.  Helecopters hovered overhead often looking for survivors in need.  I've had tougher times backpacking.  Unfortunately the house is very slowly being restored by me.  I have the skills but not much time.  Contractors are the scum of the earth.  One owes me thousands right now.   Every neighbor has a horrible contractor story.   Carpentry, plumbing and electrical work are the ultimate survival skills. 

[WhiteTrashCash]

This thread has inspired me to get a few more pieces of "disaster equipment" just in case anything terrible happens. My two biggest concerns are losing electricity and losing clean water. At some point, I found an ozonator that runs off AA batteries and I am trying to figure out what website that was on, because that would be perfect for purifying water in a disaster when I don't want to waste fuel by boiling (or waste water through water vapor loss.) I have my bleach for chlorine purification, but that isn't as good as ozone for killing all types of microbes.

I also want to get one of those handcrank Wonder Washer machines to clean clothes if there's no power. That would work if there's ever another natural disaster where the power is out for an extended period of time.

[PDM]

I like this guy's site for some real life experience:
http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2008/02/five-stages-of-collapse.html

He lived through the collapse of the USSR and writes some good stuff.

Also:
http://kunstler.com/writings/clusterfuck-nation/

He has some good books on collapse - both fiction and non-fiction.

Personally, I am at ease with any coming collapse/disaster etc and don't do anything special to prepare. Probably some complacency coming from living in Australia in a comfortable middle class life. Also tempered with an 'if it happens it'll happen and what i've done probably won't matter'. I think a lot of preppers with their bunker of guns are mislead and someone with bigger guys will just take their stash from them.

I do daydream about a remote property fully self sufficient but again, that is just as liable to be taken away in a post apocalyptic scenario but someone who is stronger or wants it more.

[2Cent]

Coming from a US perspective, I see three types of wars A) lopsided skirmishes, B) proxy wars of major powers, and C) major conflicts between world powers. Unless you are actually involved in them, the first two probably won't have much impact in your life. I don't every recall people talking about shortages during the Vietnam war or Desert Storm. The third would likely go nuclear quickly, so there's not much you can do.

You can't compare the current society to that of even 20 years ago. We are constantly moving to a more complex, and more fragile system, because it is more efficient. The main threat I see in for instance a War with North Korea is a massive hack attack that can shut down utilities and services. This may not seem like life threatening, this could potentially destroy an economy. So that is what I see as the most realistic thing to prep for. So besides the obvious things like water, it would be good to keep copies of your electronic records. Make sure you have a backup in case your e-mail gets hacked. It's not life and death, but it can be quite costly if you are hit. And it can happen also outside of a war scenario.
And as we move more and more towards automation, at least keep a book about how to do  without. If the internet fails we'll have plenty of time to relearn those skills. :)

[wenchsenior]

Yes, I think there will be a beakdown of society in my lifetime. I think it will be a direct or indirect effect of climate changes. But it might also be caused by political issues. Many people in the western world do not agree with the status quo and have a tendecy to bevome violent....

I'm wondering how old you are... I believe this to be a young person's view, not an older adult's view.  Most older people are too busy dealing with day to day life... raising kids, buying groceries, dealing with car issues, paying for kid's tuition.  You think the older people are going to stop this routine for a revolt? 

I could see younger / more idealistic kids getting more active and politically involved... but a revolt?  Dream on.  A breakdown of society? In which country?  In the US it would be pretty much impossible.    Most Americans are too busy or too lazy to do a damn thing.  They want their Starbucks coffee, home delivered pizza, NFL sunday, dealing with health issues from a sedentary lifestyle, and buying up every other new convenience that is dreamed up.  Americans will be way too lazy for a revolt... lmao.

I'm quite surprised by some of the naive and paranoia biased posts in this thread, lol.

I am 44.
I have been reading books about how societies can collapse, mostly because of climate og overuse of resources. I really think this can happen swiftly as soon as there is not enough oil to run the harvesting machines and the transportation of goods around the country. If bad weather destroys harvests in big scala, I think we will be in trouble within a short time. I'm not sure which country, it will probably vary.
Maybe it is paranoia, therefore I don't take any particular measures. I hope it will not happen before I reach 70-80 or so. Maybe we will be able to turn it around in time to prevent the collapse from happening, but that might require politicians to take some unpopular decisions.

There has been another thread more specifically about this kind of thing.

+ 1

My concerns are not as dramatic or visual as Valhalla seems to imply, but I am concerned about and largely expecting large scale societal changes in my lifetime. We might not notice them at first, they will probably be slow and years in the coming. In my country, we are already seeing it in the deterioration of government pensions, both by paying less and pushing the date further ahead so people work more years to achieve it. I believe in the decades from now and until I would have been an eligible recipient in today's system, it might largely be gone or look very different.

Yes, people might want their Starbucks coffee, but what if climate change makes coffee crops unreliable? What if prices on exotic commodities like chocolate, tea and coffee skyrocket? It's not about a revolt, it's about lasting change and adapting to it. There are already reports on it:

The Influence and Implications of Climate Change on Coffee Berry Borer

Synergies between Agricultural Intensification and Climate Change Could Create Surprising Vulnerabilities for Crops

Potential Impacts of Climate Change on Agriculture

This is the main concern in our circle of friends and family as well. Not so much conflict based on straight up politics (which can hypothetically be resolved through political means) but conflict based ultimately on resource shortages, which might not be resolvable and might result in mass migration attempts and political destabilization.

[Cranky]

I think basically - don't put all your eggs in one basket. My resources and savings are pretty diverse, so that if one thing fails, we can shift to something else. I think the best prep is to be involved in your community. Know where things are, and who does what.

I think we are in a time of great change, similar to the industrial revolution, with the kinds of social fracturing we saw then. Things can change, and fast.

My dd went to school with someone who grew up in Albania, and her family spent about 6 months living in their basement during the economic unrest of the 90s. Stuff happens.

[toganet]

I went through a prepper phase back around 2008-2010 when the recession was in full swing, and there was a lot of doom & gloom about the long-term prospect for society.  (It helped that a few of my friends and family were already in full Prepper mode).  During that period I acquired skills and materials that I still have today. I am much less pessimistic about the future than I was then (well, maybe not since 11/8/16) but we still keep 1-2 months of food on hand, at least 1 week of clean water and redundant ways to purify water, redundant emergency power and heat, and an impressive medical kit.  Based on where I live and what I think is likely to happen, I'm not worried about war per se -- though I would certainly like to live in a country with fewer divides.

[gaja]

In true war zones, a smart and early exit strategy is usually one of the best "preps" you can have. Too many people get caught up thinking "it can't happen here" and don't leave soon enough, and before they know it, they are stuck in a dangerous area with little opportunity to leave safely. Families with kids, elderly, lots of pets or otherwise vulnerable creatures in tow need to be even more proactive since it will be harder for them to just leave at the drop of a hat. We have a basic plan of what to do and where we would go if something bad happens (along with preferred routes to get there)- that way we aren't farting around wondering what to do for days on end as our window of opportunity closes.

Oh and bribes - no seriously, be fully prepared to bribe your way to safety. Bribery is a way of life in many conflict areas, and not something many people in developed nations might even realize is important.

Having been through a disaster (quake that destroyed city, still being rebuilt), I think that the real way to prepare for any emergency is to have a great network. Yes, you need to have resources to look after yourself for a few weeks as well, but the major factor in how you cope with this sort of thing is the type of friends and neighbours and work mates that you have surrounded yourself with. Have a good, wide, varied network of quality people around you and you will get through anything.

Having a good exit strategy is crucial for both natural and manmade disasters. Most refugees are on the move in their own country, or in a neighbouring country. Building and keeping a network of friends that you can call up and say "we need to leave home tonight, please let us stay at your place" will make a big difference. To be able to move quickly and set up a new life without too much disruption, you need a bit of cash, up to date papers, and language skills.

It doesn't even have to get very bad - just look at Iceland during the financial crisis. The number of Icelanders working in Norway and Denmark went through the roof. Some of them brought the family, others just worked here and sent money home. When the financial situation calmed down, many of them moved back home. But a lot of those who brought the family had put down roots and stayed. Those who could move fast had a few things in common: they could speak other Nordic languages, had practical skills that were easily transferrable or were experts in their area (carpenters, plumbers, doctors, engineers, scientists), and they already had a network in place. If you already had an Icelandic family or two in your neighbourhood, you could be pretty sure a few more would move in. In border regions, people are able to adapt even faster. It is no problem to live in one European country and work in another. If the country you live in gets in economic trouble, you just pop over the border and apply for work there. A lot of people even own real estate in a different country (summer houses, or appartments), and are therefore able to adapt quite fast. During WW2, Norway was occupied while Sweden was "neutral". The borders were theoretically closed, but you could always get across through the woods or with a fishing boat.

[monkeymoustache]

Here's the best summary I've seen on this topic "Doomsday planning for less crazy folk" - http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/prep/

It discusses much of what has already been said, taking rational steps to prepare for the randomness of life.

I've recently been evaluating my thoughts on this area. I work in IT so have seen first hand how complex systems fail, I've spent lots of time in my professional life preparing for DR "Disaster Recovery" but haven't done so much in my personal life. I do remember the 2000 petrol shortages in the UK and recall the minor panic for basic staples like bread/milk/eggs when everyone thought the lorry deliveries of food would stop.

I've currently taken a few basic steps and am working on doing some more in future. I have a stash of drinking water and food, cash stashed away should there be issues using ATMs (see Greece for recent examples!) and have a camping gas stove for cooking when the grid goes down. My wife initially found it hilarious thinking I was paranoid, until we had a 24h power cut and my gas stove kept the hot drinks flowing. I don't feel any of this is paranoia, it's just basic insurance like I have on my house for unexpected events.

There are certain black swan type events which could really mess the world up - I don't think there's a massive amount I could do to prepare for them and don't particularly want to allocate the time and energy to focus on them. So my current mantra is take sensible rational precautions, then get on with your life.

[WhiteTrashCash]

Here's the best summary I've seen on this topic "Doomsday planning for less crazy folk" - http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/prep/

It discusses much of what has already been said, taking rational steps to prepare for the randomness of life.

I've recently been evaluating my thoughts on this area. I work in IT so have seen first hand how complex systems fail, I've spent lots of time in my professional life preparing for DR "Disaster Recovery" but haven't done so much in my personal life. I do remember the 2000 petrol shortages in the UK and recall the minor panic for basic staples like bread/milk/eggs when everyone thought the lorry deliveries of food would stop.

I've currently taken a few basic steps and am working on doing some more in future. I have a stash of drinking water and food, cash stashed away should there be issues using ATMs (see Greece for recent examples!) and have a camping gas stove for cooking when the grid goes down. My wife initially found it hilarious thinking I was paranoid, until we had a 24h power cut and my gas stove kept the hot drinks flowing. I don't feel any of this is paranoia, it's just basic insurance like I have on my house for unexpected events.

There are certain black swan type events which could really mess the world up - I don't think there's a massive amount I could do to prepare for them and don't particularly want to allocate the time and energy to focus on them. So my current mantra is take sensible rational precautions, then get on with your life.

When people say I sound paranoid about prepping for disasters, I remind them that we had a two week long power outage in our area due to a natural disaster. It was horrible. Really, really bad. After you experience something like that, you have a different perspective on things.

[Imma]

One of the things I like about living in Europe is how open and fluid the borders are. They have always been very easy to cross (even long before Schengen or the EU) and many people have relatives and connections across borders. Speaking several languages is the norm. During WWI, the Netherlands was neutral, which meant many relatives from Belgium fled to my grandmother's family in the Netherlands. For decades, half my family lived off the proceeds of smuggling goods (butter, sugar, but also livestock and booze).

I think the things I have learned from this thread so far are:
- Make sure you spread your investments (not 100% in the stock market)
- Keep some cash and a valid passport
- If you're in an area that's vulnerable to natural disasters, take specific precautions
- Keep water and food and medication and think about how to prepare the food too
- Learn as many practical skills as you can
- Make sure you have a network of people around you

They all sound like common sense, but I think they're still a challenge to many people. I'm lucky that I was raised on a farm so for someone my age (27) I have a lot of practical skills, but for example, I have 0 cash. We currently use gas for heating and cooking and that means we're completely dependent on the grid. We are slowly fixing up our home and we have been thinking of including solar panels, but it would be a hassle because of the way our roof is constructed.  Something that would be easier to incorporate and also very useful would be a wood burning stove. It's not as versatile as off-grid electricity would be, but at least it gives you options for heating and cooking. You think you never need those things, and as long as our society doesn't totally collapse big emergencies don't last too long, but imagine having to go without heating for a week in the middle of winter.

I think the older generation are more resilient though. They remember what it was like when no one was on the grid. A couple of years ago, my then 80 year old grandma came home after midnight on NYE (which was on a Friday) and she found out the gas boiler for her central heating system was broken. She took out her electric blanket, went to bed, spent the weekend on the sofa, watching TV under her electric blanket washing herself with water heated on the stove, and only called the repairman the next Monday morning. They in turn contacted family to see if she wasn't losing her mind. My grandma lived through WWII. She can survive for a weekend in a cold house under an electric blanket. She didn't want to bother the repairman on his weekend off :D

[shelivesthedream]

Here's the best summary I've seen on this topic "Doomsday planning for less crazy folk" - http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/prep/

It discusses much of what has already been said, taking rational steps to prepare for the randomness of life.

Thanks for this link – I found it very informative and reassuring. I have popped a few things on my to-do list!

-   Make a diversion safe to keep our few important documents in (passports, chequebooks…)
-   Take a few hundred pounds out in cash and pop it in the safe (or maybe a separate one)
-   Back up a few important documents on a USB stick and pop into safe
-   Stop storing all our tax info in a big folder marked “Tax” on an open shelf
-   Take photos of the contents of our house and store somewhere like Google Drive in case we need to make an insurance claim
-   Buy some airtight, insect-proof storage containers for our bulk rice and our less-bulk dried beans
-   Move our two torches to our bedside table and hall table, rather than hidden under the stairs
-   Install a water butt (have been means to do this to drip-irrigate our vegetables, but now see that it could provide drinking water in an emergency too)

[Poundwise]

I have started to prepare for war by doing what I can to prevent it (now working political activism like a job.)

As for physical preparation, I am not going to go beyond what I do for fire/potential natural disasters (i.e. a Hurricane Sandy-like 2 week power outage in this area.) I have a tub sized bag for drinking water, candles, firewood, lots of solar appliances and chargers, and my pantry/extra freezer.  I reckon that every half shelf on my pantry holds enough calories for the family for a day.  We camp every year so we have all that gear as well.

From our family's experiences in the wars, when things get bad you have to run away anyway.

[Letj]

Yes, I think there will be a beakdown of society in my lifetime. I think it will be a direct or indirect effect of climate changes. But it might also be caused by political issues. Many people in the western world do not agree with the status quo and have a tendecy to bevome violent....

I'm wondering how old you are... I believe this to be a young person's view, not an older adult's view.  Most older people are too busy dealing with day to day life... raising kids, buying groceries, dealing with car issues, paying for kid's tuition.  You think the older people are going to stop this routine for a revolt? 

I could see younger / more idealistic kids getting more active and politically involved... but a revolt?  Dream on.  A breakdown of society? In which country?  In the US it would be pretty much impossible.    Most Americans are too busy or too lazy to do a damn thing.  They want their Starbucks coffee, home delivered pizza, NFL sunday, dealing with health issues from a sedentary lifestyle, and buying up every other new convenience that is dreamed up.  Americans will be way too lazy for a revolt... lmao.

I'm quite surprised by some of the naive and paranoia biased posts in this thread, lol.

+1000. I couldn't have said it better. That's exactly what I think.

[Letj]

Really? It surprises me. The rise of neo-fascism is basically the only thing my friends talk about. I know they are more interested in politics than the average person, but recently it seems everyone is getting concerned. Especially the oldest generation. There is a certain tension in the air, it seems. Ugly things like racism and white supremacy seem to be much more acceptable. I'm sure many people always thought those things but it isn't taboo anymore to say them out loud.

Everyone is getting concerned?  Methinks you're too obsessed with the news and Trump stupidity.

The majority of my family / friends despise Trump (we are all moderates, no fans of liberals or retards like Trump), and we see no signs of racism in our world.  I don't think I know of someone who knows of someone who knows of someone remotely who is racist, at least overtly.  Sure there are neo-nazi's and crazy people who always make the news.  The news always blows things out of proportion.  We are one of the golden ages of the world in terms of peace, crime, and economy, and yet the news will make you feel we are in one of the worst times.

You can go mad focusing on politics and the news.  I'll be damn glad when Trump is out of office (every damn day the front page of the news is something stupid Trump did - setting new uber lows regularly for the office of the presidency). I can't believe I'm saying this, but god damn I miss you Bush and Obama....

I don't actually follow the news all that much. I scan the headlines in the morning, but that's about it. I'm vaguely aware every time Trump breaks the world record for stupidity but I actively try to avoid the news most of the time.

It's Wednesday and so far two people have tried to tell me this week that Arabs are a lower species of human. One of them is my boss and it's driving me crazy because he has all these crazy racist theories and I can't really argue with him too much because I can't afford to lose my job right now. We had national elections last March and 15% of the people voted far right and in my town we were closer to 20%. 15% of votes nationally means they came in 2nd and we're talking about people who literally started their election manifest with "Ban islam and kick out all foreigners". People who talked about finding a "solution" for Arabs. You can't make that up, politicians making casual references to the Final Solution / Endlösung and millions of people voting for him.

I actually know people in my daily life that identify with the far right, say that Hitler wasn't that bad at all, and support organisations like Pegida and similar and I know so many of them that I sometimes wonder where all the normal people went.

You're either living in the wrong part of town or associating with the wrong people. 

[Imma]

Really? It surprises me. The rise of neo-fascism is basically the only thing my friends talk about. I know they are more interested in politics than the average person, but recently it seems everyone is getting concerned. Especially the oldest generation. There is a certain tension in the air, it seems. Ugly things like racism and white supremacy seem to be much more acceptable. I'm sure many people always thought those things but it isn't taboo anymore to say them out loud.

Everyone is getting concerned?  Methinks you're too obsessed with the news and Trump stupidity.

The majority of my family / friends despise Trump (we are all moderates, no fans of liberals or retards like Trump), and we see no signs of racism in our world.  I don't think I know of someone who knows of someone who knows of someone remotely who is racist, at least overtly.  Sure there are neo-nazi's and crazy people who always make the news.  The news always blows things out of proportion.  We are one of the golden ages of the world in terms of peace, crime, and economy, and yet the news will make you feel we are in one of the worst times.

You can go mad focusing on politics and the news.  I'll be damn glad when Trump is out of office (every damn day the front page of the news is something stupid Trump did - setting new uber lows regularly for the office of the presidency). I can't believe I'm saying this, but god damn I miss you Bush and Obama....

I don't actually follow the news all that much. I scan the headlines in the morning, but that's about it. I'm vaguely aware every time Trump breaks the world record for stupidity but I actively try to avoid the news most of the time.

It's Wednesday and so far two people have tried to tell me this week that Arabs are a lower species of human. One of them is my boss and it's driving me crazy because he has all these crazy racist theories and I can't really argue with him too much because I can't afford to lose my job right now. We had national elections last March and 15% of the people voted far right and in my town we were closer to 20%. 15% of votes nationally means they came in 2nd and we're talking about people who literally started their election manifest with "Ban islam and kick out all foreigners". People who talked about finding a "solution" for Arabs. You can't make that up, politicians making casual references to the Final Solution / Endlösung and millions of people voting for him.

I actually know people in my daily life that identify with the far right, say that Hitler wasn't that bad at all, and support organisations like Pegida and similar and I know so many of them that I sometimes wonder where all the normal people went.

You're either living in the wrong part of town or associating with the wrong people.

It's true I live in the wrong part of our country. Nationally, the far right currently gets about 15% of the votes, in my town that's 20%. In some places around here that's 30%+ .In the US, I think the surroundings I came from would be called redneck or white thrash.

I have seriously considered moving away from this place, but there is very much I love about the area and its people too. And the far right is on the rise everywhere in Europe, so I'm not even sure where I should be moving.

[nancyjnelson]

A passport with more than 6 months until expiration.

+1

[Imma]

Looking at the aftermath of Hurricane Harvey, if you are a vehicle owner it might be a good idea to have an extra can of gas in your garage.

[Poundwise]

The majority of my family / friends despise Trump (we are all moderates, no fans of liberals or retards like Trump), and we see no signs of racism in our world.  I don't think I know of someone who knows of someone who knows of someone remotely who is racist, at least overtly.  Sure there are neo-nazi's and crazy people who always make the news.  The news always blows things out of proportion.  We are one of the golden ages of the world in terms of peace, crime, and economy, and yet the news will make you feel we are in one of the worst times.

Where are you located, and are you a minority? I'm in the New York metro area, and I've been told by a stranger to "Go back to where ya came from". In a separate incident, my 12 year old son was told the same thing by a member of his soccer team. He has a Jewish friend who was on the bus when another kid yelled "Dirty Jew!" at an Orthodox man walking down the street. There have been swastikas spray painted in parks and on people's driveways since the election. 

I haven't seen anything like this since the 1970s.

Not that I expect civil war to hit the U.S. any time soon.  But I will point out that we have actually been at war-- and in fact more than one-- since at least 2001.

[Dexterous]

C) major conflicts between world powers. Unless you are actually involved in them, the first two probably won't have much impact in your life. I don't every recall people talking about shortages during the Vietnam war or Desert Storm. The third would likely go nuclear quickly, so there's not much you can do.

The only hope is to learn weather systems (avoid fallout), and survive on a boat far from any Navy (ie, South Pacific) for as long as possible.

[shelivesthedream]

C) major conflicts between world powers. Unless you are actually involved in them, the first two probably won't have much impact in your life. I don't every recall people talking about shortages during the Vietnam war or Desert Storm. The third would likely go nuclear quickly, so there's not much you can do.

The only hope is to learn weather systems (avoid fallout), and survive on a boat far from any Navy (ie, South Pacific) for as long as possible.

That is not true. Your best hope is a well-built, well-stocked shelter outside the immediate blast zone.

[former player]

Looking at the aftermath of Hurricane Harvey, if you are a vehicle owner it might be a good idea to have an extra can of gas in your garage.

High ground to park on seems to come first - all those "go anywhere big trucks" stuck in flooded driveways aren't going anywhere ever again, fuel or not.  (And in some cases, even being able to put the truck in the garage would have helped.)

[Imma]

Looking at the aftermath of Hurricane Harvey, if you are a vehicle owner it might be a good idea to have an extra can of gas in your garage.

High ground to park on seems to come first - all those "go anywhere big trucks" stuck in flooded driveways aren't going anywhere ever again, fuel or not.  (And in some cases, even being able to put the truck in the garage would have helped.)

I didn't just mean the people in the affected area themselves. One disaster hitting one place in the world affects gas prices world wide and I've heard a lot of stories about shortages in the US. One hurricane is all it takes in our fuel dependent society.

But for the people in the affected area, I don't understand why not more of them left the area when they could, before the hurricane hit. These days, we know days in advance what kind of weather is developing, and we knew Harvey was going to be bad before it hit. Looking at a map, it's clear that the Houston area is very vulnerable to flooding. Even while no one could have predicted this massive amount of rainfall, you'd still expect larger evacuations and / or people leaving ahead of time. Of course, not everyone has the opportunity to leave, but I've heard from friends in the larger Houston area that many people chose to stay while they were well aware of what was happening. I'm from an area that's vulnerable to flooding too, and I can't imagine staying in a situation like that.

And, to stay on topic, when we bought this house, we bought it on relatively high ground on purpose. We live in the Netherlands, a country that's mostly below sea level and vulnerable to flooding, sea levels are rising, weather is getting more extreme. In those circumstances we didn't feel like buying a home below sea level.

[Linea_Norway]

And, to stay on topic, when we bought this house, we bought it on relatively high ground on purpose. We live in the Netherlands, a country that's mostly below sea level and vulnerable to flooding, sea levels are rising, weather is getting more extreme. In those circumstances we didn't feel like buying a home below sea level.

I am also Dutch and I am often wondering why Dutch people still dare to buy houses in the low part of the country, like my brother has done. They just presume it will always be safe.

But I do think the Netherlands are technically capable of fighting the water, building higher dikes, more pumps, etc. But the government must prioritize it financially and restore and improve dikes.

[Linea_Norway]

When people say I sound paranoid about prepping for disasters, I remind them that we had a two week long power outage in our area due to a natural disaster. It was horrible. Really, really bad. After you experience something like that, you have a different perspective on things.

I think you are right. Not having electricity stops your fridge and freezer, your electronic stove, your microwave. If you have a well with an electric pump, or your drinking water provider is out of electricity, you don't have clean water.

I think it is smart to have some camping equipment. With this you can run away from the area, but you also have a camping stove and maybe a water filter. It could also pay off to have stored food food a few weeks, food that is stored outside the freezer.
I have very limited food that is not cooled. I have some dried camping meals. But otherwise just pasta/rice/beans/canned tomatoes, dried mushrooms etc.The rest of my food is in the freezer an will be spoiled in a power outage.

[Imma]

And, to stay on topic, when we bought this house, we bought it on relatively high ground on purpose. We live in the Netherlands, a country that's mostly below sea level and vulnerable to flooding, sea levels are rising, weather is getting more extreme. In those circumstances we didn't feel like buying a home below sea level.

I am also Dutch and I am often wondering why Dutch people still dare to buy houses in the low part of the country, like my brother has done. They just presume it will always be safe.

But I do think the Netherlands are technically capable of fighting the water, building higher dikes, more pumps, etc. But the government must prioritize it financially and restore and improve dikes.

I'm not extremely worried at this point, but I do think we're neglecting the situation while we should be very active in making our country future-proof. Climate change is threatening the literal, physical existence of large parts of the country. With heavy weather likely on the increase, I really don't understand friends buying property in extremely flood sensitive areas (Waalsprong, Dordrecht).   In many places, the sewerage system also cannot cope with the increase in rainfall and local governments are apparantly incapable of solving that problem.

I was only a kid in 1995 but it will be etched into my mind forever. We weren't evacuated ourselves, but we lived close to that area and knew people there. Even though the evacuation itself went according to plan, as far as I can remember, a quarter million people had to leave their home and we came dangerously close to very serious flooding  - not a few feet of water, but 3 stories high. We tend to forget about that emergency because nothing happened in the end, but we came very close to a very big catastrophy.

[Linea_Norway]

And, to stay on topic, when we bought this house, we bought it on relatively high ground on purpose. We live in the Netherlands, a country that's mostly below sea level and vulnerable to flooding, sea levels are rising, weather is getting more extreme. In those circumstances we didn't feel like buying a home below sea level.

I am also Dutch and I am often wondering why Dutch people still dare to buy houses in the low part of the country, like my brother has done. They just presume it will always be safe.

But I do think the Netherlands are technically capable of fighting the water, building higher dikes, more pumps, etc. But the government must prioritize it financially and restore and improve dikes.

I'm not extremely worried at this point, but I do think we're neglecting the situation while we should be very active in making our country future-proof. Climate change is threatening the literal, physical existence of large parts of the country. With heavy weather likely on the increase, I really don't understand friends buying property in extremely flood sensitive areas (Waalsprong, Dordrecht).   In many places, the sewerage system also cannot cope with the increase in rainfall and local governments are apparantly incapable of solving that problem.

I was only a kid in 1995 but it will be etched into my mind forever. We weren't evacuated ourselves, but we lived close to that area and knew people there. Even though the evacuation itself went according to plan, as far as I can remember, a quarter million people had to leave their home and we came dangerously close to very serious flooding  - not a few feet of water, but 3 stories high. We tend to forget about that emergency because nothing happened in the end, but we came very close to a very big catastrophy.

1995: Wasn't that water coming from Germany and Switserland, heavy rainfall combined with snow melting in the alps? I remember water coming all the way up to the top of the dikes around Culemborg.

Isn't there any political party that mentions future proofing the country?

[Imma]

It isn't really a political theme, although I'm sure all parties have a few lines in their program saying we need stronger dikes. Ironically, many parties argue for the abolition of waterschappen nowadays. A lot of money goes to them and what happens with it is invisible (dry feet don't count). I'm really happy that something that important is in the hands of specialists. You can vote for them these days, but hardly anyone does and national parties don't even bother to run for it.  Very small scale floods during heavy rains are a major issue in my area but it's just too expensive to fix properly (south-east Brabant).

I think it was something like that in 1995, lots of water coming in, from all the rivers. I used to live a little bit more to the north, towards the Maas river. I remember the A2 and some villages flooded, but the real threat was elsewhere where the dikes nearly cracked. I think that was indeed somewhere around Culemborg / Betuwe.

[Syonyk]

Are you expecting to be in a warzone?  Well, that's not something I can offer advice for.

Otherwise, if you're outside the active shooting areas, a war is somewhere between "no impact" (see most of the American "police actions" or "we'll rip your head off and shove democracy down your throat!" actions) and a general emergency/disaster/etc (shortages of supplies, rationing, etc).

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/thoughts-on-fire-in-a-declining-nation/ was a general discussion on that topic, with most of the responses being, "Well, the reason you have money is to have options, so move somewhere else," with the assumption that there was always "somewhere else" you could move.

An alternate path (one I'm pursuing) is to strive to meet a lot of your own needs, or be able to rapidly scale to meet a lot of your own needs, and ideally to have enough surplus for the neighbors (either in direct food/energy or in useful skills and knowledge for them to ramp up quickly as well).  This has the advantage of leaving less to seize - a "got mah gunz n beans!" bunker is a lot more interesting to take over than a high intensity garden/greenhouse/aquaponics setup that takes a lot of skill to keep running.  Ideally, if you've got the second, your neighbors will have your back as well.  At least, that's my hope/goal.  It's not a huge cache of stuff, it's a process that takes skill to run.  Yeah, you could end up overrun anyway, but... this pays off in terms of quality food even if stuff doesn't collapse.  Monsanto and Bayer merging should terrify you if you think about it...

[geekette]

But for the people in the affected area, I don't understand why not more of them left the area when they could, before the hurricane hit.

In a word - traffic.  They tried to evacuate Houston before Rita hit (shortly after Katrina) and 130 people died.  Besides, where would over 2 million people go? 

[aceyou]

By becoming wealthy as fast as possible. 

In nearly every war, the wealthiest people are the least likely to have to fight or have their children fight...they buy their way out of that.  This goes back to basically all of human history.  They are the most likely to buy themselves out of shortages.  They are the first to be able to flee to another country if needed. 

If it really got to a point of societal breakdown where money didn't even exist anymore, then I think there's a high likelihood that I'm among the first to die...which might not be the worst outcome in that scenario:)

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

By becoming wealthy as fast as possible. 

In nearly every war, the wealthiest people are the least likely to have to fight or have their children fight...they buy their way out of that.  This goes back to basically all of human history.  They are the most likely to buy themselves out of shortages.  They are the first to be able to flee to another country if needed. 

If it really got to a point of societal breakdown where money didn't even exist anymore, then I think there's a high likelihood that I'm among the first to die...which might not be the worst outcome in that scenario:)

I think this is far less to do with wealth and far more to do with who you know, as a result of wealth. People with the greatest investment in an area are less likely to leave, even when there are warning signs. Money makes you a target when things get tough, and it rapidly becomes useless when there's nothing to buy.

I still think that human resources are your greatest asset in a disaster.

What would have prevented some of the awfulness of Houston? Money when you can't get out of your house? Or knowing someone with a boat who cared enough to come and get you?

There's a strong argument that the main benefit of hunting in hunter gatherer societies was not protein, since the hunts were rarely successful, but bonding. When there were large disasters, you needed your fellow human around. The same argument has been made for the hunting expeditions during the pioneer wagon train days. If your axle broke or oxen died, you needed to be someone the community would stop for and help. The most successful individuals in tough environments are ones valued by their community.

[Leisured]

I have seen some interesting ideas for preppers in this topic.

Preppers need food which keeps, and need to think laterally.

Rich fruit cake, with plenty of sugar, and perhaps soaked in brandy, keeps indefinitely. Sugar and alcohol dries bacteria to husks. Cakes in tins stacked to the rafters.

Chocolate, plenty of fat and sugar. It may be necessary to use military chocolate, to keep well. I hear that emergency rations in lifeboats during WW2 were sometimes fortified chocolate, which is with vitamins added.

Plenty of multi vitamin tablets.

Sacks of dried beans.


Some people have raised the old chestnut of preparing for hunting. (Do Americans use that term for an old fallacy?) Such people have no idea of population carrying capacity. Before white settlement, there were perhaps 3 million First Nation peoples in what is now the US, that is one percent of the current population. Hunting does not support the current population; only farming can do that.

Another old chestnut is suspicion of the Federal government. Thomas Hobbes, a seventeenth century political philosopher, pointed out that in a state of nature ‘life is nasty, brutish and short’. Governments usually overcome that problem, first by local warlords, then a paramount warlord known as a king, or more recently a president. Governments keep order in their territory; that is what government are for.

I come from Australia, a first world country. If international supply of food and oil becomes a problem, first world countries have the option of seizing food and oil from poor countries. On a less brutal note, the US, Canada and Australia are large grain exporters. Poor harvests mean that less is exported, so that the domestic population gets what it needs at the expense of importing countries. There were poor wheat harvests in the US and Russia in 2008, which caused a sharp rise in prices in the Middle East which imports a lot of wheat. I hear that Russia temporarily stopped all export of wheat in 2008 until it became clear that Russia had enough wheat for its own needs.

Another option, for the US, is to reduce grain feeding of cattle. A kilogram of beef takes many kilograms of corn, so rationing of beef is one option for the US government. At the start of rationing, there will be a surplus of cattle in feed lots, so there would be a once only ration of beef at the start of rationing.

[Imma]

But for the people in the affected area, I don't understand why not more of them left the area when they could, before the hurricane hit.

In a word - traffic.  They tried to evacuate Houston before Rita hit (shortly after Katrina) and 130 people died.  Besides, where would over 2 million people go?

I see the point the author is trying to make, and it could well be that at this time it was the right choice not to evacuate, because from the article it sounds like the local government was absolutely unprepared for it. But Houston is an area known to be sensitive to flooding, in a hurricane area, one of the major cities in the world richest country. It's not a third world country. Evacuations can lead to chaos when the government is not in control and apparantly it went like that in the past, but that doesn't mean evacuation (not necessarily of the entire city, but at least of the known vulnerable areas and people) isn't possible at all. It just means that better evac plans have to be made and that quite possibly drastic measures need to be taken to make sure Houston is not as vulnerable in the future. We all know the weather is likely to get worse in the future.

The author is right that there are two sorts of flooding; one caused by the storm surge and one caused by rainfall. But the rainfall flooding isn't as unpredicatable as he makes it sound: you don't know where exactly the rain is going to fall, but the movement of water is extremely predictable. Water is going to go to lower areas and when land is covered by pavement or roads water is not going to be able to soak into the ground. It will still move to lower grounds, and you will get fast-moving water in city streets if you don't have a proper drainage system to transport the water to somewhere else. All in all it sounds like a huge failure of local government: not prepared for evacuation, poor stormwater management and poor urban planning.

[Rosbif]

snip snip

Natural disasters are so so unlikely to be a problem in London that I am not concerned about stocking up on dried food or whatever.

snip snip

Thanks to the Thames Barrier!

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

snip snip

Natural disasters are so so unlikely to be a problem in London that I am not concerned about stocking up on dried food or whatever.

snip snip

Thanks to the Thames Barrier!

I can't tell if you guys are joking or not..... but in case you're not...
- terrorists attacks
- large scale fire from Grenfell to the fire of London
- plague. London only escaped SARS by the smallest of margins. Surely a plague could be categorised as a natural disaster?

[Urchina]

We prepare for war and/or natural disasters the same way we prepare for any future we want to thrive in:
We work with our community to make it stronger.
We petition our representatives to put the good of the country/community first and to make hard decisions that protect our economic and environmental future.
We build our capacity to be resilient in the face of challenge by gaining skills and creating networks of trust and organization
We create an inclusive environment where each community member has a place and is valued.
We seek to improve equality, opportunity and justice for all people.

Yes, I have bottled water and emergency supplies of food, a couple of ways to cook it and camping gear for my family.
Yes, I keep my cars at least half-full of gas at all times and have a couple of exit routes.
Yes, I am certified in First Aid and CPR, as well as CERT trained.

But in reality, the difference between success and failure in a time of crisis are our ties to each other. They are the most valuable things I've got. So our street has a BBQ twice a year, and we host pumpkin-carving at our house, and I offer to watch my neighbor's houses / mow their lawns / pick up stuff at the grocery store when they're sick, and I make sure the students I teach at the local city college know how to reach me at my other job with any questions, and we volunteer with community organizations, because having a group of people we know and trust around us is our best bet for successfully weathering any disaster -- natural or man-made.

[Leisured]

Good post, Imma. We all need society. Thomas Hobbes, seventeenth century, wrote a book on politics called ‘Leviathan’, by which he meant society. In Chapter 13 he wrote:

‘In such condition, [that is no society] there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be transported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving, and removing such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man; solitary, poor, nasty brutish and short.’

Sums it up well. I recommend his book, but the first nine chapters are observations that seem only to apply to his period. Chapter 10 onwards is much better.

[ooeei]

Really? It surprises me. The rise of neo-fascism is basically the only thing my friends talk about. I know they are more interested in politics than the average person, but recently it seems everyone is getting concerned. Especially the oldest generation. There is a certain tension in the air, it seems. Ugly things like racism and white supremacy seem to be much more acceptable. I'm sure many people always thought those things but it isn't taboo anymore to say them out loud.

Everyone is getting concerned?  Methinks you're too obsessed with the news and Trump stupidity.

Wow. I reside in a liberal bastion (SF Bay Area) and here are the effects of racism that I've personally witnessed:

-A Trump-supporting family member openly came out as a supporter of racial segregation.
-A new "friend" tried to convince me that black people are a degenerate race.
-I erased and reported hate speech against Asians scrawled on a park sign.
-Foreign-born friends from Iran and Pakistan are afraid to travel outside the U.S. because they might not be able to return, even through they're here legally.
-Latino friends (with legal status) and I (brown but not Latina) have discussed concerns about being picked up and detained by ICE.
-Undocumented parents in my community are being separated from their U.S.-born children. (Regular people with jobs, houses and families)

I will also say that as a person of mixed-race ancestry, I am much less inclined to engage with white strangers these days unless I know where they're coming from. This, to some degree extends, to participating on Internet forums I used to enjoy.

Oh, and white supremacists are convening in SF and Berkeley on August 26 and 27. If this actually happens, there may not be an all-out war, but it's gonna get ugly.

To provide a counter example to this, I live in Houston TX, not exactly known for being liberal or politically correct. I'm a white guy and haven't heard anything even close to what you describe in my entire time living here, and I know for a fact many of the people I know voted for Trump.  I've lived in TX my whole life and can't recall anyone ever trying to convince me black people were an inferior race, or promoting racial segregation. Maybe there were a few that I brushed off and don't remember. I'm not doubting horrible racist people exist, I just don't see it being a big enough group to cause a war or catastrophe the likes of which you need to "prep" for. And don't automatically assume just because you've seen racism in SF that the more conservative areas of the country must be worse. I know you didn't say that explicitly, but that seems to usually be the assumption.

We just had an actual tragedy here in Houston, and I saw lines of trucks with boats from Louisiana (again, not usually propped up as a bastion of racial or sexual equality) coming here and taking time off work to help people of all races and sexual orientations out of danger, all while risking themselves and their expensive boats.

Tragedy generally brings people together, other than the occasional profiteer. The enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that.

[Poundwise]

I'm a white guy and haven't heard anything even close to what you describe in my entire time living here, and I know for a fact many of the people I know voted for Trump.  I've lived in TX my whole life and can't recall anyone ever trying to convince me black people were an inferior race, or promoting racial segregation. Maybe there were a few that I brushed off and don't remember. I'm not doubting horrible racist people exist, I just don't see it being a big enough group to cause a war or catastrophe the likes of which you need to "prep" for. And don't automatically assume just because you've seen racism in SF that the more conservative areas of the country must be worse. I know you didn't say that explicitly, but that seems to usually be the assumption.

I get what you're saying, ooeei, and am not going to assume that TX is better or worse than any other places in the U.S.  But this is the second time in this discussion that I've seen an "I never see this kind of thing" comment with an assumption that because you are not black that racists will feel at ease and confide in you, etc.  But I think what a lot of people don't realize is that if you're not a targeted group, you are sheltered from seeing some of the nastiness. 

For instance, my husband has decent friends who don't do locker room talk or harassment.  And when he's with me, nobody leers, whistles, or grabs so he could assume it never happens and is not a problem (actually it doesn't happen to me any more which is one of the benefits of being middle aged.)  So as far as he's concerned, sexual harassment doesn't happen.

I'm not terribly overweight, so I don't get the snickers my very overweight friend says she gets.  None of my friends make fun of fat people, so if she didn't say it happened, I'd assume it doesn't happen.

I'm not Jewish, so I don't get swastikas spray painted on my driveway. But people I know did this year.

But I am not white, and all I can say is that my family personally experienced two racial incidents in the past year. The last time I had or heard of real racial harassment was in the 70s, when it was kind of routine nastiness.

It's only anecdotal, but I think there's been an uptick in overt racism. SPLC reports a surge in hate incidents in 2017; it could of course be due to increased reporting, but it could also be due to a true rise in incidents.

I mean, it's great that you aren't seeing racism. But it's a luxury to not be a target; just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not happening and isn't an issue.  Adults bully the same way they did as children: pick out someone different as an easy target; do it when nobody who would get them into trouble is looking; deny they did it when called out.  Because the U.S. is so diverse, I agree with you that I don't see a civil war brewing as would be the case if there were just two major ethnicities, but I do foresee increasing ugliness and more people really getting hurt, until the cost of being a racist increases back to pre-Trump levels.

[daverobev]

It's only anecdotal, but I think there's been an uptick in overt racism. SPLC reports a surge in hate incidents in 2017; it could of course be due to increased reporting, but it could also be due to a true rise in incidents.

Not anecdotal at all, and actually not unexpected. The world has got a lot more liberal in the last however many years, and there is a current backlash.

After Brexit there was a large spike in racism. Trump is the same. *Some* Brexiteers, *some* Trump supporters are racist/sexist/whatever (basically, "I am frustrated with my life and I want to blame someone else for what has happened or is happening").

The good news is that this comes after years and years of increasing tolerance. Hopefully it will burn itself out quickly.

All this stuff comes from fear. Fear of change, mostly. Or anger over past change.

[ooeei]

I'm a white guy and haven't heard anything even close to what you describe in my entire time living here, and I know for a fact many of the people I know voted for Trump.  I've lived in TX my whole life and can't recall anyone ever trying to convince me black people were an inferior race, or promoting racial segregation. Maybe there were a few that I brushed off and don't remember. I'm not doubting horrible racist people exist, I just don't see it being a big enough group to cause a war or catastrophe the likes of which you need to "prep" for. And don't automatically assume just because you've seen racism in SF that the more conservative areas of the country must be worse. I know you didn't say that explicitly, but that seems to usually be the assumption.

I get what you're saying, ooeei, and am not going to assume that TX is better or worse than any other places in the U.S.  But this is the second time in this discussion that I've seen an "I never see this kind of thing" comment with an assumption that because you are not black that racists will feel at ease and confide in you, etc.  But I think what a lot of people don't realize is that if you're not a targeted group, you are sheltered from seeing some of the nastiness. 

For instance, my husband has decent friends who don't do locker room talk or harassment.  And when he's with me, nobody leers, whistles, or grabs so he could assume it never happens and is not a problem (actually it doesn't happen to me any more which is one of the benefits of being middle aged.)  So as far as he's concerned, sexual harassment doesn't happen.

I'm not terribly overweight, so I don't get the snickers my very overweight friend says she gets.  None of my friends make fun of fat people, so if she didn't say it happened, I'd assume it doesn't happen.

I'm not Jewish, so I don't get swastikas spray painted on my driveway. But people I know did this year.

But I am not white, and all I can say is that my family personally experienced two racial incidents in the past year. The last time I had or heard of real racial harassment was in the 70s, when it was kind of routine nastiness.

It's only anecdotal, but I think there's been an uptick in overt racism. SPLC reports a surge in hate incidents in 2017; it could of course be due to increased reporting, but it could also be due to a true rise in incidents.

I mean, it's great that you aren't seeing racism. But it's a luxury to not be a target; just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not happening and isn't an issue.  Adults bully the same way they did as children: pick out someone different as an easy target; do it when nobody who would get them into trouble is looking; deny they did it when called out.  Because the U.S. is so diverse, I agree with you that I don't see a civil war brewing as would be the case if there were just two major ethnicities, but I do foresee increasing ugliness and more people really getting hurt, until the cost of being a racist increases back to pre-Trump levels.

Oh I totally get that, I know racist people do exist and are a real problem. I'm just trying to provide a bit of counterpoint to the doom and gloom type posts.

It kind of makes me think of general crime/violence. If you watch the news, people are getting shot constantly, and if you come visit America there's a real chance you're going to get shot or beat up by police officers.  In reality, while that stuff does happen, I've known one guy my whole life who got shot, and he was a convenience store owner in his 60's who got shot with a small shotgun in the face and lived about 15 years ago.  I've met thousands and thousands of people, and this is the only one I've heard of getting shot or being in a place where people were shot. I've never known anyone who has been beat up by police, including minority friends.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it clearly does, I'm just trying to put it in a bit of context based on my also anecdotal experience. Not everyone is violent or racist, the few who are are certainly a problem, but it's not like every 10 minutes someone comes up to you wearing an "I love Hitler" t-shirt and trying to recruit you. Based on some of the responses in this thread you'd think every new person you meet has a 50/50 chance of wanting to exterminate minorities and tells you about it within 5 minutes of meeting them.

I also like to argue a bit against the whole "I saw this in XXX liberal city, that's how bad it is!" statement that always seems to crop up with the assumption that it must be far worse in the less liberal cities.  San Francisco may be liberal, but it's also only 6% African American. If you hate African Americans, that's a pretty great place to be.

[Syonyk]

I also like to argue a bit against the whole "I saw this in XXX liberal city, that's how bad it is!" statement that always seems to crop up with the assumption that it must be far worse in the less liberal cities.  San Francisco may be liberal, but it's also only 6% African American. If you hate African Americans, that's a pretty great place to be.

FAKE FACTS!!!!!  San Francisco is... well... um... you know, there are a lot of Asians, they count! :p

My experience in the rural west and southwest is that, in general, various races just stick to themselves (and mostly associate with their own race).  It's the left that tries to cram everyone together and assert that everyone must get along perfectly with everyone.