How do you make someone see the light?

[DeniseNJ]

A friend of mine seems to have an addiction to trinkets.  She's also broke. And wants to buy a house. You see how these things don't add up.

She says she can't buy a house, not bc she spends all her money on stuff she doesn't need, but bc houses are crazy expensive and she is single after her divorce and doesn't make a lot of money.  True houses are expensive and true she doesn't make a lot of money but spending the little money she has is not helping her obviously (to me).  She says ten bucks here and there will not make a difference.  She can't get a house to make her happy but she can at least get a new blouse or trinket to make her happy.  She insists that it's not these few dollars that are keeping her broke.  I tell her these things don't make her happy.  She says they do.  But she is still miserable bc she can't afford a house.  And this seems completely logical to her!!!

I tried to explain that if a new ring made her happy why does she have ten of them?  If a new outfit made her happy why is she stepping on clothes all over her bedroom bc there's no place to store them all?  When will you be happy enough that you don't need another blouse or ring?  When will you have enough things to be content and satisfied?  I mean if another coat will make you happy, even a cheap coat from the goodwill that is such a bargain at ten bucks, then why do you have 20 coats?

I found her name on missingmoney.com and it turns out she had an old account and just got a check for $10K.  So she needs a new mattress.  Ugh.  She said she was going to buy one even before her good fortune and hers is ten yrs old and she needs one.  I would agree except that she just bought a new rug, bc she needed one. She says money is not an end in itself but a means to an end.  How can I explain it in a way that makes sense?

I know I'm not crazy but . . . am I?  When my mattress sagged I turned it over, except it's a pillow top so I bought a foam mattress topper for it.  I have 2 coats and a jacket.  I just replaced the jacket bc I've had it for over 30 yrs and it's been missing a button for 10.  When my puppy peed on the rug so much that I had to throw it out, I just had hard wood floors.  I don't have a lot of the stuff that I want.  But I have money.  Her logic makes perfect sense to her.  It's not that she spend her little money on all these little things, it's that houses are way to expensive and she has a low paid job.  I'm at a loss to explain that her behaviors (of spending on stuff) are not consistent with her goal (of buying a house).  But she doesn't think that not buying another trinket, or rug, or mattress, or clothes, will allow her to buy a house.

[iris lily]

You know the answer. You can’t change her internal wiring about money, it is a deeply held value. Fortunately, it’s not your job to change her mimd.

Some people see money as being there to be spent.

They are so wrong! Money is there to be hoarded! Haha.

[lhamo]

Nothing you say or do is likely to change her.  She would probably benefit from therapy.  I have a friend who is extremely low income and has a lot of mental health issues related to past trauma and her upbringing.  Spending money she doesn't have on stuff she doesn't need for more immediate gratification/self-soothing/to make her feel like she is in control of something in her life is a major thing for her.  If your friend (like mine) has had her world turned upside down several times in her life it is also a pretty logical thing to do -- why save tons of money to buy a house when the shit is probably going to hit the fan and you will never make it to that goal anyway?

I would not try to verbally promote your worldview or behavior.  Talking to/at her is not going to change anything for her.  Instead, try modeling different ways of being in the world and let her see for herself how that works for you.  My friend with the challenges LOVES to go out for coffee.  I like it too, sometimes, but we can have just as nice a time having coffee and homemade treats at my house.  So sometimes I let her treat me to coffee out.  But the next time I will invite her to my place and then we'll go for a walk or spend some time at a garden. 

My friend also loves to thrift.  I've gone with her a few times and when she was on the verge of buying something she liked but really didn't need I would ask a few pointed questions:

Where are you going to put it? 

Do you really need it, or do you have something already that serves the same or a very similar purpose?

If/when you need to move (she was worried she was going to be forced out of her current public housing because it is too big for her current family size), would you pay to store/move it?

She was kind of pissed at me at the moment, but later agreed that my input was helpful.

[DeniseNJ]

You're right of course.  I can't change her.  I think she knows spending money she doesn't have on stuff she doesn't need is a temporary fix.  But she thinks buying a house is hopeless so she may as well spend it.  And she thinks she does need everything she buys.  They make her happy.

But if you buy something and it makes you happy, why would you buy more of it?  To be more happy?  I thought the last thing you bought made you happy?

She tries to encourage me to buy stuff I don't need bc I deserve it.  Yeah, but what don't I deserve?  I mean I deserve a huge house with a new kitchen and several expensive cars and all the things.  But you don't buy stuff bc you deserve them, you buy them bc you can afford them.  Frankly, I'd rather have the money.  I tell her having the money makes me happier than a $50 lipstick from Sephora ever would.  But she thinks I should buy the lipstick bc it would make me happy, I can afford it, and I deserve it.

[reeshau]

Second on therapy; let a professional help her work it out for herself.

One question, given your narrative: was she like this before the divorce?  There is likely something deeply ingrained in her to have this response to life, but if she has taken a turn recently, it might be easier to get out of it.

[former player]

Have you sent her a link to the blog?

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/22/getting-rich-from-zero-to-hero-in-one-blog-post/

Never mind a house, what's her pension like?

[FIRE Artist]

You don’t.

I take the stance that I don’t make recommendations on anyone else’s personal finances unless specifically asked. I am open about my personal financial planning where it is safe to do so, because I think that women should break down the taboos of talking about money, but I never, ever use it to preach to anyone else.

So unless your friend asks you for advice on saving for a home, don’t give advice.

[mistymoney]

the only time this should ever be attempted is if it is a partner or other cohabitor where you are directly affected by their choices.

If not, you can give advice 1 or 2 times, maybe gift a well-chosen book on the topic, but their life is theirs to live.

[iris lily]

The opening sentence of this thread coincided with a thought I was having today and it is, which of the financial gurus don’t take trinket money into consideration? One of them pooh poohs “the latte factor” but who is it? Not Mr. Money Mustache, or is it Dave Ramsey? Or?

So today I tuned into YouTube and there is Ramit Sethi, pushing people to look at the”big picture” And don’t focus on clipping coupons. While he  is right, we need to look at the big picture, clipping coupons and avoiding Starbucks at five dollars a pop will  get you a nice litrle sum in the bank.

It osn’t either/or, it is both/and.

[Laura33]

But if you buy something and it makes you happy, why would you buy more of it?  To be more happy?  I thought the last thing you bought made you happy?

It is not the "thing" that makes her happy.  It is the actual buying of the thing -- it's that feeling of treating herself, that moment of knowing that she can afford to buy herself something she wants that makes her feel successful and like all of her work allows her to achieve something tangible.

And of course that feeling wears off not too long after the buying is done.  And so the buying must be continually repeated to continue to provide that happiness.

You don't "get" it because you clearly do not get the same temporary high from buying stuff; you likely learn to get more happy feels from knowing that your own hard work and investing are buying you permanent freedom. 

You already know that you cannot change her.  That is particularly true where you cannot understand why she thinks and acts like she does.  The only path you are giving her is to acknowledge that her entire view of life is wrong and adopt yours instead -- and boy, that never, ever works. 

IMO, the best thing to do is just back off.  She is not your problem to fix.  When she complains, just say something generic like "yeah, that's rough" -- see it as a public service to allow her to vent.  Or turn it back to her -- "hmm, wow, that's tough -- what are you going to do about it?"  That at least is a small reminder that she has some power/agency in this situation.  Or, if her money complaints are bothering you, just say that -- set a boundary.  E.g., "can we talk about something other than money?"  And then change the subject when she wants to bitch. 

If you do want to continue to try to change her, you need to start from the assumption that her behavior is completely logical from her perspective -- that she behaves as she does to meet some sort of need.  In fact, she has been very clear about that.  Your job is to accept that that need is a valid need. 

Starting from those assumptions, do you see why telling her not to buy stuff is never going to work?  The only option you are giving her is to stop meeting that need, for years and years and years, in the hope that at some point in the far distant future, she will finally be able to afford something else.  And her own life history tells her that that "something else" will be out of her reach anyway -- so she's giving up years of temporary joys and will end up with nothing in return.  Not particularly appealing, eh?

The only way to actually reach someone like this is to (1) help them understand what that underlying need is; then (2) help her identify other ways to meet that need beyond the shopping.  And that involves multiple extended discussions to walk through all those issues, many of which can trigger some significant emotional responses.  IOW, these conversations are often best addressed with a trained therapist with the background and training to handle them productively.

[Sibley]

OP, set some boundaries with your friend. You don't have to listen to her complaining about how unhappy she is ad nauseum. You can be supportive yet still place it firmly in her court: "That sounds hard, what are you going to do about it?" type statement can help.

[sonofsven]

If  talking to her doesn't work, maybe a show can break through?
Til Debt Do Us Part was a Canadian show focusing on couple's money issues, basically overspending, and it's pretty entertaining and not quite as harsh as Caleb Hammer's YT channel, which also features wildly out of control spending.
Hopefully she can see herself in some of the over spenders and make positive changes.

[wageslave23]

Personally, I'd say your friend shouldn't buy a house, period.  Even if she saves up some money to buy a house, she is not responsible enough for home ownership.  Home ownership requires a lot of money, effort, and work.  You need to set aside funds for a future roof replacement, or new windows, or broken furnace.  There are also DIY chores that need to be done or hired out.  She sounds like she is not qualified financially or mentally for home ownership.

[GilesMM]

Unless she is asking for advice I would keep my nose out of it.

[DeniseNJ]

You're right, of course.  You're all right.  I need to stay out of it.  But it's like watching someone walk into traffic.  Over and over again.  It's painful and confusing to watch.

Yes, just listening can be a public service.  Listening without advice.

The thing is I was a mess too until I found Mr. Money Mustache.  It changed my life.  It was like someone turned on a light.  So I guess I'm just always confused when I turn on the light for her and she still doesn't see.

[Metalcat]

You can't help someone whose behaviour you don't understand.

All behaviour is understandable, so if you really want to support her, then you have to work on getting to the point where her behaviour makes sense to you, only then can you offer the kind of support needed that can be well received and actually trigger meaningful change.

Your goal can't be to change another autonomous adult, that's patronizing and controlling, and that's how it will be received. But if you can deeply and compassionately understand how someone might get to a place where decisions you would never make actually make sense to them, then you can operate from a place of understanding and they might invite and welcome your input.

People's behaviour always makes sense to them, so by definition, they just feel like you don't get it when you pass judgement on their choices. No matter how obvious it seems to you that their decisions are "wrong."

The dumber someone's behaviour seems to you, the more effort you need to put into understanding that person if you want to help them.

In the process of understanding them, you may possibly realize that what you thought was the obvious solution may or may not be right for their nuanced circumstances.

There's a reason she behaves this way. There's a reason she has very, very different unmet needs/motivations from yours.

So...why?

[jrhampt]

Agree with everyone else in this thread about needing to let your friend do her own thing, but thanks for posting about missingmoney.com!! I just checked it and found a $1500 premium refund that I never received. 

[Catbert]

Let me give you scenario that your friend may have in her head.  My long term (30+ years) hairdresser was somewhat similar to your friend.  Didn't make a lot of good money decisions and had a bit of a QVC/TJMaxx addiction.  Cheap jewelry and home decor was her thing.  There is a lot more to the story that I saw play out monthly for more than 30 years.  I never questioned any of her spending.  While friendly we weren't friends.  Now qualified for Medicare and SS I wondered how she would ever retire.  Well, nine months ago she was diagnosed with malignant brain tumors.  Yes, not one but two.  Terminal from the beginning she finally found a surgeon willing to do surgery and followed it with chemo.  She's been in a "rehab" facility for 9 months.  Now in hospice.  She'll never see her jewelry or home decor again.  But money wouldn't have made a difference either.

Seeing any version of this story just tells your friend she's making the right decision.  This is certainly not my view of life and money, but it's pretty common.  Not something you as a friend can fix.

[Sandi_k]

Let me give you scenario that your friend may have in her head.  My long term (30+ years) hairdresser was somewhat similar to your friend.  Didn't make a lot of good money decisions and had a bit of a QVC/TJMaxx addiction.  Cheap jewelry and home decor was her thing.  There is a lot more to the story that I saw play out monthly for more than 30 years.  I never questioned any of her spending.  While friendly we weren't friends.  Now qualified for Medicare and SS I wondered how she would ever retire.  Well, nine months ago she was diagnosed with malignant brain tumors.  Yes, not one but two.  Terminal from the beginning she finally found a surgeon willing to do surgery and followed it with chemo.  She's been in a "rehab" facility for 9 months.  Now in hospice.  She'll never see her jewelry or home decor again.  But money wouldn't have made a difference either.

Seeing any version of this story just tells your friend she's making the right decision.  This is certainly not my view of life and money, but it's pretty common.  Not something you as a friend can fix.

Yep. My BFF of 15 years raided her retirement by taking a distribution on her pension funds, rather than lower her standards and find another reception-focused job.

She was eventually re-employed with health benefits, and later was diagnosed with bladder cancer at 52. Dead by 53.5.

I frequently remind myself that Valyrie was right, and she took her joy where she could find it. Not everyone has the same money script, and my stash o' money might be the wrong choice for my long term joy.

All of this would be easier if we knew our death dates in advance.

[iris lily]

You're right, of course.  You're all right.  I need to stay out of it.  But it's like watching someone walk into traffic.  Over and over again.  It's painful and confusing to watch.

Yes, just listening can be a public service.  Listening without advice.

The thing is I was a mess too until I found Mr. Money Mustache.  It changed my life.  It was like someone turned on a light.  So I guess I'm just always confused when I turn on the light for her and she still doesn't see.

 But Denise, we all have friends like this. Every one of us has close friends and relatives exactly like this. There’s nothing unique about your situation.

We enjoy our friends and relatives for what they are, and if they’re too complainy- pants about anything including money, then get some distance from them.

I have watched with fascinated horror people my age, 70+ now, go into new-to-them expensive homes with mortgages. I would consider myself a loser if I had to get a mortgage at age 70.

 I cannot freaking believe it, but these are people who look at themselves as being as “responsible with money “ simply because they meet  their monthly obligations. They were two paychecks away from disaster, but disaster didn’t strike. And now they are all on fixed incomes with limited choices and their houses cost more than my house. But oh well. I have money and  they don’t because  money is there to be hoarded, ha ha!

And I absolutely agree with the poster above that your friend should not buy a house. Many people should not be owners and she sounds like she’s one of them.

[Askel]

As the man sings- some people can see the light, while some can only feel the heat. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygTsN_sr4k8

[Kris]

You're right, of course.  You're all right.  I need to stay out of it.  But it's like watching someone walk into traffic.  Over and over again.  It's painful and confusing to watch.

Yes, just listening can be a public service.  Listening without advice.

The thing is I was a mess too until I found Mr. Money Mustache.  It changed my life.  It was like someone turned on a light.  So I guess I'm just always confused when I turn on the light for her and she still doesn't see.

 But Denise, we all have friends like this. Every one of us has close friends and relatives exactly like this. There’s nothing unique about your situation.

We enjoy our friends and relatives for what they are, and if they’re too complainy- pants about anything including money, then get some distance from them.

I have watched with fascinated horror people my age, 70+ now, go into new-to-them expensive homes with mortgages. I would consider myself a loser if I had to get a mortgage at age 70.

 I cannot freaking believe it, but these are people who look at themselves as being as “responsible with money “ simply because they meet  their monthly obligations. They were two paychecks away from disaster, but disaster didn’t strike. And now they are all on fixed incomes with limited choices and their houses cost more than my house. But oh well. I have money and  they don’t because  money is there to be hoarded, ha ha!

And I absolutely agree with the poster above that your friend should not buy a house. Many people should not be owners and she sounds like she’s one of them.

Right? I know a couple who are about to be empty nesters, about to launch their last kid. And they are celebrating the end of their child-raising years by...

Looking for a BIGGER house to buy.

[Metalcat]

You're right, of course.  You're all right.  I need to stay out of it.  But it's like watching someone walk into traffic.  Over and over again.  It's painful and confusing to watch.

Yes, just listening can be a public service.  Listening without advice.

The thing is I was a mess too until I found Mr. Money Mustache.  It changed my life.  It was like someone turned on a light.  So I guess I'm just always confused when I turn on the light for her and she still doesn't see.

 But Denise, we all have friends like this. Every one of us has close friends and relatives exactly like this. There’s nothing unique about your situation.

We enjoy our friends and relatives for what they are, and if they’re too complainy- pants about anything including money, then get some distance from them.

I have watched with fascinated horror people my age, 70+ now, go into new-to-them expensive homes with mortgages. I would consider myself a loser if I had to get a mortgage at age 70.

 I cannot freaking believe it, but these are people who look at themselves as being as “responsible with money “ simply because they meet  their monthly obligations. They were two paychecks away from disaster, but disaster didn’t strike. And now they are all on fixed incomes with limited choices and their houses cost more than my house. But oh well. I have money and  they don’t because  money is there to be hoarded, ha ha!

And I absolutely agree with the poster above that your friend should not buy a house. Many people should not be owners and she sounds like she’s one of them.

There's also the fact that people need to be ready to receive messages.

We all think that we learned something really eye opening at some point in life and we believe it's because the message was so undeniably convincing, and then we get super fucking confused why others aren't affected the same way.

Well, that's because the message wasn't super convincing, we were just in the exact right headspace to be substantially convinced by good messaging.

Most people who are super influenced by MMM were influenced because we found him because we were looking for that kind of financial wisdom in the first place.

It's really, really easy to convince someone who is actively in a receptive state for that message.

That's why the bigger MMM got, the bigger the backlash, because the more people were exposed to him in mainstream media, the more it was people who weren't seeking that info, and therefore weren't at all receptive to the messaging.

Messaging that people aren't receptive to will be easily batted away with rationalizations that feel entirely legit to the person.

Take someone in the pre-contemplative stage of change and tell them that what they are currently doing is wrong and they'll find a way to discredit whatever you say.

So if someone is not ready to absorb the messaging that just paying their bills is enough, then no MMM style messaging is going to resonate with them.

When it comes to promoting change in thinking/behaviour, timing is everything. They have to be ready for the messaging, and believing you're "right" and that another person is "wrong" won't do anything to help move that person more towards readiness.

[lifeandlimb]

There's also the fact that people need to be ready to receive messages.

We all think that we learned something really eye opening at some point in life and we believe it's because the message was so undeniably convincing, and then we get super fucking confused why others aren't affected the same way.

Well, that's because the message wasn't super convincing, we were just in the exact right headspace to be substantially convinced by good messaging.

Most people who are super influenced by MMM were influenced because we found him because we were looking for that kind of financial wisdom in the first place.

It's really, really easy to convince someone who is actively in a receptive state for that message.

That's why the bigger MMM got, the bigger the backlash, because the more people were exposed to him in mainstream media, the more it was people who weren't seeking that info, and therefore weren't at all receptive to the messaging.

Messaging that people aren't receptive to will be easily batted away with rationalizations that feel entirely legit to the person.

Take someone in the pre-contemplative stage of change and tell them that what they are currently doing is wrong and they'll find a way to discredit whatever you say.

So if someone is not ready to absorb the messaging that just paying their bills is enough, then no MMM style messaging is going to resonate with them.

When it comes to promoting change in thinking/behaviour, timing is everything. They have to be ready for the messaging, and believing you're "right" and that another person is "wrong" won't do anything to help move that person more towards readiness.

^ What Metalcat said, 100%. This is one of the most misunderstood things about giving advice. The recipient has to be receptive and seeking. The timing has to be right. These things are often outside of the advice-giver's control.

[reeshau]

"When the student is ready the teacher will appear."
--Tao Te Ching

[SunnyDays]

The gap between being able to afford trinkets and being able to afford a house is HUGE.  So huge, it’s much easier to see it as not doable than have false hope or a very hard struggle.  However, there is a lot of middle ground.  If it’s feasible for her to afford a small condo, then saving up a down payment may be doable.  Or just having a solid emergency fund for when the SHTF.  Or enough savings to enroll in further education to ultimately boost her income.  You could have a discussion about what else would be more meaningful to her than trinkets to see if a middle ground goal would motivate her.  And if she continues to just lust after a house she will never be able to afford, commiserating then moving on to other topics is justified.  Perhaps with a comment that “there’s nothing wrong with being a life long renter.”

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm not sure based on what you wrote your friend would ever afford a home, or all the expenses that go into maintaining one. Maybe if she prioritized that one goal to the exclusion of all else? Also I think the magnitude in relation to income is important to know. The point of needing to cut spending in one area to optimize for some other area is well received here, but at the extremes of income I can see how small luxuries could be more valuable to people then saving an extra 1-2k a year. There was a book I read a while back called the Unbanking of America, worth reading, it was a combination of gonzo journalism with some economics. The jist was that people on the extreme left of the normal distributions of income respond differently to incentives and really have to navigate the financial system in a very different way, not being able to cash a check or pay a bill without paying a fee (that is meaningful for their income) for instance.

[twinstudy]

You can't change people (adults, that is) and there's no point trying to force change on someone who resists it. It's okay to gently enquire once - anything else breaches politeness (no one wants unsolicited advice) and also breaches the basic right of a person to make his her her own life choices. Let a person live his or her life. The market will sort things out.

[DeniseNJ]

Agree with everyone else in this thread about needing to let your friend do her own thing, but thanks for posting about missingmoney.com!! I just checked it and found a $1500 premium refund that I never received.

That's awesome!  :)

[DeniseNJ]

Yep.  I get it. I know I can't change her behavior.  And I know it makes sense to her. It just breaks my heart to watch it.  I know you're all right. It just really is like watching someone walk into traffic over and over.  They may have a reason that makes sense to them.  But it makes me sad and confused.

I was hoping that there was a way to put the MMM message in a more accessible way than what I've been saying.  But I guess it doesn't matter if she's not ready to hear it.  She's getting another check from missingmoney.com for over $11K.  I assume some accounts got lost track of during the divorce. So that's over $21K in total that is coming as an unexpected bonus. Such an opportunity. 

[GuitarStv]

It sounds like she's not financially mature enough to even consider buying a house.  Not buying is probably the best possible outcome in this situation.

[BECABECA]

Advertisers have found that potential customers need to hear their message on average 3 times before it sticks. In the same way, being around and putting it out there that you are available to give budget/investing/FI advice if/when they want it can eventually bring them around. It’ll happen (or not) on their schedule. I’ve brought quite a few family and friends around this way. In the meantime, just keep living well and you’re a continual advertisement for the FIRE life.

[Laura33]

And I know it makes sense to her. It just breaks my heart to watch it.  I know you're all right. It just really is like watching someone walk into traffic over and over.  They may have a reason that makes sense to them.  But it makes me sad and confused.

Well that's a little condescending, isn't it?  Why is your chosen lifestyle "right" and hers "wrong"?  She's not dropping heroin or prostituting herself for money.  She's just spending more money than you think she should on stuff that you don't think she needs.  That doesn't make her wrong, just different than you.  I guarantee you that she is looking at your life and thinking exactly the same thing -- "wow, I feel bad for her, so much money, and she can't even loosen up and enjoy life enough to buy a single lipstick."

One of the things that bugs me about financial advice is that thrift is viewed as a sign of good character, whereas immediate gratification is viewed as a moral deficit.  Think of the original marshmallow study:  kids who don't have the internal fortitute to wait for a second marshmallow end up being the same kids who are poor and needy their whole lives, because that same lack of character leads to many other bad choices.  Ergo, poverty is driven by stupidity and lack of character.

Now look at the revisited marshmallow study:  the poor kids grow up in an environment where everything is ephemeral, and any good thing disappears quickly.  If someone gives you a lollipop, you're not going to stash it in your room and save it for later, because the odds are extremely high that a sibling or friend is going to find it and eat it before you can.  From that context, if someone offers you one marshmallow now or two later, it makes every bit of sense to take the one now.  Because you know from hard-won experience that the vast majority of the time, those two marshmallows will never appear, so better to take the one that's right in front of you and enjoy it while you can.  Ergo, seemingly poor choices are often a response to poor circumstances, not evidence of stupidity or lack of moral fiber.

I also very strongly believe that people tell you what they value by their behavior, not their words.  Her behavior suggests she doesn't actually want a house -- at least, not more than she wants the freedom to buy treats for herself every weekend.  Really, if she wanted a house, there are many, many first-time buyer programs out there, many financial counselors out there who could help her figure out how to save up a downpayment and rework her budget, many loan officers who would be more than happy to find a way to finance something, and an infinite number of bloggers and columnists happy to tell her how to get there. 

She probably "wants" a house in the same way most people "want" to retire at 40 -- it's a generic dream that you'd love to have, but you're not actually that enthralled by it enough to put in the work or make the sacrifices to get there.  So her comments are more in the nature of a complaint about the unfairness of the system, or a pipe-dream wish, not a request for advice in how to actually achieve something.  So when you tell her to give up the shopping, she already knows that; she's just decided that that's not a sacrifice she's willing to make -- that the house doesn't matter that much.   And that is a decision she has every right to make for herself.*

In sum, it's not that she "may" have a reason that makes sense to her.  It's that she does have a reason that makes sense to her.  Start there.  Stop trying to say or do anything to her about how she manages her money until you can really truly accept that her thinking is very likely logical and valid given her circumstances and actual goals.  Interpret her comments about owning a house as general kvetching, not an overriding goal that she just hasn't figured out how to achieve yet. 

And if, at some point, she decides she wants to make a different decision, then you can be there to help her figure out how to do that.  But until then, treat her like a mature adult who is fully capable of making the decision that is right for her -- even though it is not the one you'd make in her place.


*Of course, you also have every right to consider how much you're willing to let someone bitch about not being able to afford something when she's unwilling to take even the most minimal steps to help herself reach that goal.  I personally have very little patience for that kind of thing -- if you want it, do something about it; if you don't, stop bitching about it. 

[RedmondStash]

OP, many wise words here.

I'm struck that just as you can't convince your friend to change her ways, we can't convince you to change: we can't convince you that it's okay for her not to change. We're giving all the right arguments, but you keep resisting, because the situation makes you feel a certain way.

I've been down this road with friends of mine (yes, we do all have friends like this). I finally had to accept that my friends are living exactly the way they want to, and that's okay. What will happen to them in the future? Maybe they'll be penniless at 70. Maybe they'll die in a horrific car crash tomorrow. For that matter, all my careful planning and saving may not pay off; any of us could kick the bucket tomorrow.

You don't have to be sad for your friend; she is living with freedom and those little jolts of pleasure that buying things gives her. Will she regret it someday? Who knows? But there's nothing you can do either way, so you can let go of any sadness or even guilt you may feel. Or try to; survivor's guilt can be rough going.

I do understand. All you can do now is take care of your own emotional needs. If you can't bear to be around someone who behaves that way, maybe back away from the friendship for a while.

The point is -- and I say this with compassion and not accusation -- this is not her problem. It's your problem. I hope you find a way to deal with it that helps you feel more comfortable in your life.

[twinstudy]

Most people do not want to lead a disciplined life. They want their here and now. It's not for us to tell them what to do or to babysit them. Allow people to be exposed to the consequences of their actions. You may well be wrong - they might like reaping what they sow. And if they don't like it, they will have to live with it anyway, so why bother.

[Metalcat]

Most people do not want to lead a disciplined life. They want their here and now. It's not for us to tell them what to do or to babysit them. Allow people to be exposed to the consequences of their actions. You may well be wrong - they might like reaping what they sow. And if they don't like it, they will have to live with it anyway, so why bother.

In addition to this, there are many, many ways to be disciplined and what is worth being disciplined for in one person's mind may be radically different in another's.

Plenty of folks with healthy bank balances are miserable fucks and incredibly unhealthy.

Financial advice is fundamentally lifestyle advice. If someone isn't a saver, then it's very possible that they value different forms of discipline.

The broke as fuck gym rat might not take lifestyle advice very seriously from an obese diabetic with terrible posture and a smoker's cough because in their priority paradigm, what's the point of having money if your body is falling apart?

Most people are incredibly driven and disciplined about what matters to them.

They're only going to care about the other person's area of discipline if it can somehow fit within their own priority paradigm. It's not so much that most people aren't disciplined, it's that a lot of people's areas of discipline aren't socially accepted as important.

The average hardcore gamer is profoundly disciplined about their game play. Almost no one in this world if more disciplined and motivated than a drug addict, they'll do literally anything to get drugs every single day. Vain women will put literal hours in every single day to not only perfecting their own esthetic, but watching hours and hours of social media to research beauty products, techniques, and trends.

People aren't generally undisciplined, they just don't have priorities that align with what a whole bunch of other folks *think* they should.

[Panly]

Y  I think she knows spending money she doesn't have on stuff she doesn't need is a temporary fix.  But she thinks buying a house is hopeless so she may as well spend it. 

She may be very right about that.

I notice you haven't made the case that she actually could afford a house with her income and assets  if she spends a few dollars less per month on whatever.


 

[DeniseNJ]

Y  I think she knows spending money she doesn't have on stuff she doesn't need is a temporary fix.  But she thinks buying a house is hopeless so she may as well spend it. 

She may be very right about that.

I notice you haven't made the case that she actually could afford a house with her income and assets  if she spends a few dollars less per month on whatever.

Correct.  I don't think she can afford a house anywhere near where we live and I don't think she should buy one at all.  What confuses and saddens me is that she still talks all the time about wanting a house and goes to look at houses.  Then goes to tjmaxx and spends.  You can't spend your money and have it too.  She won't be able to buy a house either way, but at least she wouldn't be broke is she saved her money.

But of course, there is no talking her out of it, so I guess I'll just smile an nod.

[DeniseNJ]

Well that's a little condescending, isn't it?  Why is your chosen lifestyle "right" and hers "wrong"?  She's not dropping heroin or prostituting herself for money.  She's just spending more money than you think she should on stuff that you don't think she needs.  That doesn't make her wrong, just different than you.  I guarantee you that she is looking at your life and thinking exactly the same thing -- "wow, I feel bad for her, so much money, and she can't even loosen up and enjoy life enough to buy a single lipstick."

I think the simple question that reveals whether your choices are "right" or not is, "How's that working for you?" If you're broke and stressed about it and still spending and not meeting your stated goals, then your behavior is not in line with your priorities. 

But I digress.  I'm not treating my friend with condescension.  My choices make me happy but hers are making her miserable.  I get what you're saying but this is someone I actually care about.

[DeniseNJ]

OP, many wise words here.

I'm struck that just as you can't convince your friend to change her ways, we can't convince you to change: we can't convince you that it's okay for her not to change. We're giving all the right arguments, but you keep resisting, because the situation makes you feel a certain way.

Not resisting at all.  I totally get it and in fact, it sounds like advice I would give if someone asked me the same question I ask.  No, it's not my problem, but it is my friend.  I just wanted to ask if there was a way to put things in a way that might make sense before she blows through her newfound $20K.  You're all saying no.  I have to agree, I can't think of a way to put it either that may make sense to someone who isn't ready to hear it.

[lifeandlimb]

I definitely have people in my life like this. It's goddamn infuriating. So I occasionally still offer advice, but for the most part realized it was time to politely say, "Mm-hm, yeah, it sucks. But we've been talking about this for a while. [Insert question about some other subject here]?"
Sometimes that doesn't work and they continue to ramble, so then I get a little blunt and say, "Can we change the subject?"

Maybe it's time for a little healthy diversion in your friendship so you can enjoy each other's company and remember why you like being friends in the first place.

 

[DeniseNJ]

Thank you guys.  I am listening and internalizing some great advice. All I can do it smile and nod.  She may ask for advice but she won't take it, so I have to be ok with that. I don't mind listening to her complain if that's what she needs.  But I sure won't go shopping with her.  lol.

[Metalcat]

OP, many wise words here.

I'm struck that just as you can't convince your friend to change her ways, we can't convince you to change: we can't convince you that it's okay for her not to change. We're giving all the right arguments, but you keep resisting, because the situation makes you feel a certain way.

Not resisting at all.  I totally get it and in fact, it sounds like advice I would give if someone asked me the same question I ask.  No, it's not my problem, but it is my friend.  I just wanted to ask if there was a way to put things in a way that might make sense before she blows through her newfound $20K.  You're all saying no.  I have to agree, I can't think of a way to put it either that may make sense to someone who isn't ready to hear it.

Literally not what I've said in multiple posts.

It's absolutely doable, but only from a place of being curious about what she actually needs to be happy and why she does what she does.

It's actually not at all hard to help people make healthier decisions, you just can't operate from the assumption that you know what decisions would be best/healthiest for them.

[Raenia]

Well that's a little condescending, isn't it?  Why is your chosen lifestyle "right" and hers "wrong"?  She's not dropping heroin or prostituting herself for money.  She's just spending more money than you think she should on stuff that you don't think she needs.  That doesn't make her wrong, just different than you.  I guarantee you that she is looking at your life and thinking exactly the same thing -- "wow, I feel bad for her, so much money, and she can't even loosen up and enjoy life enough to buy a single lipstick."

I think the simple question that reveals whether your choices are "right" or not is, "How's that working for you?" If you're broke and stressed about it and still spending and not meeting your stated goals, then your behavior is not in line with your priorities. 

But I digress.  I'm not treating my friend with condescension.  My choices make me happy but hers are making her miserable.  I get what you're saying but this is someone I actually care about.

Actually, it means her stated goals are not in line with her actual priorities. Her behavior is showing you her real priorities.

This happens a lot. Priorities - aka the things we actually prioritize - are tricky things, and often we don't fully understand our own priorities until we look through the lens of actual behavior. Our goals might be logical things that we want (but not enough on an emotional level to prioritize), or things we think we should want, or things society wants us to want. Our priorities, though, are emotionally driven and almost always win out over reasoned goals.

[Metalcat]

Well that's a little condescending, isn't it?  Why is your chosen lifestyle "right" and hers "wrong"?  She's not dropping heroin or prostituting herself for money.  She's just spending more money than you think she should on stuff that you don't think she needs.  That doesn't make her wrong, just different than you.  I guarantee you that she is looking at your life and thinking exactly the same thing -- "wow, I feel bad for her, so much money, and she can't even loosen up and enjoy life enough to buy a single lipstick."

I think the simple question that reveals whether your choices are "right" or not is, "How's that working for you?" If you're broke and stressed about it and still spending and not meeting your stated goals, then your behavior is not in line with your priorities. 

But I digress.  I'm not treating my friend with condescension.  My choices make me happy but hers are making her miserable.  I get what you're saying but this is someone I actually care about.

Actually, it means her stated goals are not in line with her actual priorities. Her behavior is showing you her real priorities.

This happens a lot. Priorities - aka the things we actually prioritize - are tricky things, and often we don't fully understand our own priorities until we look through the lens of actual behavior. Our goals might be logical things that we want (but not enough on an emotional level to prioritize), or things we think we should want, or things society wants us to want. Our priorities, though, are emotionally driven and almost always win out over reasoned goals.

Yup...human beings are walking discrepancies, all of us.

[Laura33]

I'm not treating my friend with condescension.  My choices make me happy but hers are making her miserable.  I get what you're saying but this is someone I actually care about.

Well of course you care about her.  The very persistence of your efforts to "fix" her demonstrate that.  But how's that working for you?  From the outside, it seems like you're more interested in changing her behavior than she is, which can't be particularly happy for you or good for your relationship. 

Given your apparent lack of progress, I do think it is worth questioning your core assumptions.  How do you actually know her choices are making her "miserable"?  Maybe she just likes to complain.  Maybe she's really feeling stress about family or job, and she just chooses to vent about money because it's easier than delving into emotional stuff. 

Even more to the point:  how do you know that she would be happier if she made your choices instead?  Maybe those shopping trips help her manage her disappointment over how her life has turned out, and if you took away that coping mechanism, she'd actually be even more unhappy.  Maybe she really cannot afford a house even if she stops all the shopping, and so the most helpful thing you could do would be to help her find a path to a better-paying job. 

And that's why this whole discussion is inherently condescending.  Not that you're overtly patronizing her; clearly, you are treating her with kindness and friendship and a sincere desire to help her make her life better.  But this whole discussion is grounded in the core belief that you know what will make her happy better than she does herself.  Why not just ask her how that's working for her, and then focus on listening and supporting instead of worrying about trying to fix?

[twinstudy]

Well that's a little condescending, isn't it?  Why is your chosen lifestyle "right" and hers "wrong"?  She's not dropping heroin or prostituting herself for money.  She's just spending more money than you think she should on stuff that you don't think she needs.  That doesn't make her wrong, just different than you.  I guarantee you that she is looking at your life and thinking exactly the same thing -- "wow, I feel bad for her, so much money, and she can't even loosen up and enjoy life enough to buy a single lipstick."

I think the simple question that reveals whether your choices are "right" or not is, "How's that working for you?" If you're broke and stressed about it and still spending and not meeting your stated goals, then your behavior is not in line with your priorities. 

But I digress.  I'm not treating my friend with condescension.  My choices make me happy but hers are making her miserable.  I get what you're saying but this is someone I actually care about.

Actually, it means her stated goals are not in line with her actual priorities. Her behavior is showing you her real priorities.

This happens a lot. Priorities - aka the things we actually prioritize - are tricky things, and often we don't fully understand our own priorities until we look through the lens of actual behavior. Our goals might be logical things that we want (but not enough on an emotional level to prioritize), or things we think we should want, or things society wants us to want. Our priorities, though, are emotionally driven and almost always win out over reasoned goals.

I think it's worthwhile remembering that people don't generally want what's "objectively good" (from a 'health and wellbeing' point of view) for them. If people cared at all about that, we wouldn't have massive industries in cigarettes, gambling, fads, pseudoscience, religion, multi-level marketing, etc etc. People want whatever satiates their basic need to feel accomplished. For a few of us, that involves taking solace in FIRE. For a further few, it involves a career or hobby or religion or cult. For many, it involves smoking, gambling, drinking, "wasting" money, etc. By their actions, people show that this is what they want.

[former player]

You haven't said anywhere that you have told your friend what your attitude to spending is.  Do you just listen to her complain, or do you ever have a conversation where you tell her about your values about money, and about finding Mr Money Mustache? About the 4% rule?  That her $20k invested in low-cost index funds with Vanguard is $800 a year for life?  What would she buy if each year she had a "free" $800 to spend?