How do you decide on amount to splurge

[whywork]

I have always been frugal in my life. Spending money actually is a bit hard for me. Saving comes naturally. That said we do enjoy certain things as a family (of four); eating out, vacations being the main things that can cost money.

We are currently close to 1.2 million. Our yearly expenses come to about 75k. We make about 220k after tax (including 401k contributions). We haven't taken any international vacations till date. All our vacations are to nearby places (without any flying) where we drive and stay at a hotel for a couple of days. This keeps our vacation expenses to 100-150 per month. We like to eat out but we recently I found this to be costing us like 500-700 per month (when we eat freely) and started restricting ourselves to eating only at home. This is getting a bit difficult as we don't have any other hobbies and without even the eating out, we are mostly sitting at home

Our income mainly comes from my high paying job, which I can keep for another 2 years easily. After that it can go down. Assuming I keep my high paying job, I can reach FIRE target of 2.4m in 5 years. If I lose it after 2 years then I can reach FIRE in 8 years.

I sometimes wonder this kind of frugality may be hurting our overall fun. Assuming the 75k is only essentials, how much more can we safely spend? Is there a formula we can use to decide this and spend it all so that we are making sure we are living our best life? How do you guys decide on the amount to splurge? When is the best time to start spending more? Like 1-2 years away from FIRE?

[Buffaloski Boris]

I have always been frugal in my life. Spending money actually is a bit hard for me. Saving comes naturally. That said we do enjoy certain things as a family (of four); eating out, vacations being the main things that can cost money.

We are currently close to 1.2 million. Our yearly expenses come to about 75k. We make about 220k after tax (including 401k contributions). We haven't taken any international vacations till date. All our vacations are to nearby places (without any flying) where we drive and stay at a hotel for a couple of days. This keeps our vacation expenses to 100-150 per month. We like to eat out but we recently I found this to be costing us like 500-700 per month (when we eat freely) and started restricting ourselves to eating only at home. This is getting a bit difficult as we don't have any other hobbies and without even the eating out, we are mostly sitting at home

Our income mainly comes from my high paying job, which I can keep for another 2 years easily. After that it can go down. Assuming I keep my high paying job, I can reach FIRE target of 2.4m in 5 years. If I lose it after 2 years then I can reach FIRE in 8 years.

I sometimes wonder this kind of frugality may be hurting our overall fun. Assuming the 75k is only essentials, how much more can we safely spend? Is there a formula we can use to decide this and spend it all so that we are making sure we are living our best life? How do you guys decide on the amount to splurge? When is the best time to start spending more? Like 1-2 years away from FIRE?

All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.  Money though is only part of having fun. I don't think there is any set formula for splurging.  It's all math: if you spend $10 today, you won't have $10 + investment return tomorrow.  That means you're $10 + investment return further from whatever your RE number is. Which for you might be the right answer.. Or not. Only you and yours can determine what spending priorities should be. To me the idea is life maximization, not seeing how fast we can save $X. 

[undercover]

If you enjoy eating out then I can’t think of a reason to not do it. It sounds like there’s other variables to consider as $75k is pretty high for a family of four. I’m going to assume housing is the bulk of that. Maybe you can FIRE a lot sooner if you were to consider moving somewhere cheaper in the future which would allow you to splurge on what you want right now.

The thing is you already have a high savings rate with $1.2m in the bank. It’s not like you’re putting yourself at risk to live a life you’re happy with at this point. There are things you can shift around if worse come to worse.

Otherwise...it’s just simple math. Savings rate determines what date you can FIRE given whatever expenses you’re planning on. If you’re happy with longer, splurge. If not, don’t.

[ClassicalEd]

How old are your kids? How much are you currently spending on activities (sports, music lessons, etc.)? If the kids are really young, I would be inclined to just hunker down for the next two years and max out your savings, with the idea of taking some nice vacations when the kids are old enough to appreciate it. My kids definitely remember all the amazing trips we took, but I doubt they remember many restaurant dinners. ;-) Also, keep in mind that the cost of kids' activities tend to go up (sometimes waaaay up) once they hit middle school and HS — and then there's college. (My expenses actually went down once my oldest hit college, because he's paying for most of it through a combo of athletic and academic scholarships, and the portion that is out of pocket is actually much less than what we used to pay for his sport).

[American GenX]

I've decided to wait until I retire to splurge, which should be within the next 1 1/2 years.  My discretionary spending for this year is about $25, so far.  It's been something like $1000 or less per year in recent years, and it's never been very high over my career.

Once I FIRE, I figured I can spend $45,000 to $50,000/yr on discretionary expenses based on my calculations.  I'm not sure if I will actually get myself to spend that much, though, when the time comes, after decades of being very frugal, even more so in recent years while my income is as high as it's ever been.  But that's what the math tells me I can spend.

My required non-discretionary expenses in FIRE are expected to be about $22,000/yr for just me.

[FIRE 20/20]

You said you've been frugal your whole life and that spending money is hard for you, but 75k a year is really high and $500-$700 per month on eating out is insane.  Remember, the median family income in the U.S. is 64k, so you're spending a lot more than most people earn.  I don't see how $75k is just for essentials unless you're in a very high cost of living location.  At that level of spending it seems like you should be drowning in luxury.  I'd suggest doing a case study.

With that said, there's no reason to sit at home.  First of all, even if you added a $10k fun budget your FIRE date wouldn't move very much.  But before doing that I'd look into free fun things to do.  Do you have any public parks in the area?  How about a walk and a picnic?  Museums aren't terribly expensive.  Minor league and college sports, other than the major ones, are usually cheap if you avoid the food and drinks.  Having friends over for a potluck and game night can be fun.  Free local concerts?  Free college lectures?  Snowball fight?  Reading?  Your local library might have a maker space.  Old video games are often cheap.  The list is endless. 

[Bloop Bloop]

It really depends on what you value and most people will have a few items in their spending that to others might seem profligate.

For me, I have worked out my rough goals, my FIRE timeline, and how hard I have to work for them. I have a semi-solid plan to save about $100k per year at a 70% after-tax savings rate for the next 3 years. My partner is aiming to save $30k per year at a 70% after-tax savings rate. So that's our baseline. Anything over and above that is "splurge able".

We could have aimed for 75% SR. But that would have led to day-to-day pondering and fretting about finances. So we decided against that. We could have also aimed for 60-65% SR. But that would have felt a little too loose with the purse-strings. You just need to figure out what your general goals are, and work from there.

Once you have a rough idea of how much you can afford to budget, pick a couple of expenditure categories that you are willing to splurge on. It could be anything (within reason) - lipstick, holidays, food, movies, horse-riding, whatever. I find that if you consciously let yourself be non-frugal in a couple of domains, you give yourself a lot more mental energy to be frugal with everything else. I think the human brain only ever wants a few nice things, spread out from time to time, and that tends to avoid rampant lifestyle inflation.

Even an ostensibly expensive hobby, like cars or travel, can become quite manageable if you break it down into its basic components and choose what you want to splurge on; if you know how to get a good deal; if you know how to make it tax deductible etc. (Travel can be tax deductible if you're self-employed - harder otherwise).

[Villanelle]

$75k/ year is far from frugal.  I'm not judging; my budget isn't far from that.  But I think you perhaps aren't being entirely honest with yourself.  Clearly, there are a lot of splurges there beyond $500 in restaurant spending. 

One thing to keep in mind is that if you increase your budget to allow for more splurges is that it decreases the amount you invest, but it also increases the amount you need to retire.  If you allow yourselves an additional $5k/yr, you need another $125k invested when you retire.

Certainly, you can afford to spend more, in that you have the money.  It just pushes out FIRE by maybe a year, depending on how much you add.  So the real questions is whether it's worth it to you to work longer.  And if you know how much you want to increase it by, you can pretty easily figure out how much longer you'd need to work.  Take the increase in your budget, divide by 4%, and then look at your savings rate, reduce it by that amount (because it's no longer being spent) and then see how long at that new reduced saving rate it would cost you to cover the increase need.  But also know that this will only cover this one annual increase.  Once you've adapted to that, if you want to add another one, you push retirement further.

Also, the "no hobbies" is worrisome.  I'd work on that, as I think it's generally better for your life, but also because it will likely increase contentment and fulfillment, meaning you are less likely to spend to try to fill that void.

Read a book with your spouse.  (Or look for a couple's book club.)  Find local hiking trails.  Join a game night that rotates through hosts.  Find a hobby that costs you $20 or less a month, and focus on that.   Or just get more into cooking interesting meals with your spouse during the week.   It may increase your happiness so that you have less of an urge to spend on other things.

I think I'd likely look to plan that vacation, but also plan to find at least half of the new expense by making cuts elsewhere.  And perhaps tell myself it will be every other year, and then only if the budget has remained reduced. 

[Dancin'Dog]

OP,  you didn't mention the ages of your kids or where you live.  However, if the only thing that you seem to enjoy is eating out it seems like you do need to look for ways to jazz things up a bit.


It sounds like you really need to find some outdoor activities.  Just think of all the kinds of things offered at summer camps.  You can do a lot of them together as a family.  Hiking, biking, camping, fishing, swimming, water sports, tennis, corn hole, frisbee, flying kites, etc.


There are all kinds of hobbies & indoor activities to do for fun & for learning as a family.  Puzzles & board games, arts & crafts, collecting things (stamps, coins, insects, etc.) , raising pets of all kinds, planting gardens, all types of optical equipment (telescope, binoculars, microscope, camera, etc.)  science kits.  Build something with the kids like a treehouse, playhouse, doghouse, greenhouse, or maybe just a storage shed (to keep all the hobby crap in ;) ). 


It's your job as a parent to introduce and teach your kids about how to live and enjoy all the wonders of life that you can, right?  It's not easy being a parent, but fighting boredom is part of building memories that you & your children will cherish.  Sitting around "doing nothing" gives you all "nothing" to remember. 


Some of it is inexpensive and some isn't.  There are plenty of inexpensive things to do while you're still saving to RE.  You can splurge now & then when you feel like it.


But, the point is "don't let being bored or plugged in" be the majority of your lives. 

[whywork]

Thanks all for your replies. Our kids are still young. our eldest is 10 years and it will be 3 years before she is into high school. So the international travel can wait.

Eating out is something we all enjoy and it also helps avoid boredom. We also do some parks and libraries but the kids are keen to go to library every weekend day. We go out to eat pretty often like say 5 times a week (2 weekday nights, 3 times on the weekend). So 30$ per each eating out for 4 people, which is definitely not expensive per each outing. We try to pick cheap ones and try to keep the costs low.

When we stopped eating out, it really started to get boring on weekends. This is how our typical weekend used to go

Wake up and go for breakfast out to panera bread or noahs bagels
Go to a park after and let the kids play while we sit and talk or walk around the area
Come home and have some quick lunch at home
let the kids watch cartoon network while we both watch hulu movie or tv show (carribean life) for about 3 hours
now it starts getting boring; best thing to do here is go out for dinner and fill that gap
then come back and go to bed

Alternatively we used to go to library sometimes after the breakfast and eat out and come home in the evening. Then watch tv and sleep.

[Laura33]

Thanks all for your replies. Our kids are still young. our eldest is 10 years and it will be 3 years before she is into high school. So the international travel can wait.

Eating out is something we all enjoy and it also helps avoid boredom. We also do some parks and libraries but the kids are keen to go to library every weekend day. We go out to eat pretty often like say 5 times a week (2 weekday nights, 3 times on the weekend). So 30$ per each eating out for 4 people, which is definitely not expensive per each outing. We try to pick cheap ones and try to keep the costs low.

When we stopped eating out, it really started to get boring on weekends. This is how our typical weekend used to go

Wake up and go for breakfast out to panera bread or noahs bagels
Go to a park after and let the kids play while we sit and talk or walk around the area
Come home and have some quick lunch at home
let the kids watch cartoon network while we both watch hulu movie or tv show (carribean life) for about 3 hours
now it starts getting boring; best thing to do here is go out for dinner and fill that gap
then come back and go to bed

Alternatively we used to go to library sometimes after the breakfast and eat out and come home in the evening. Then watch tv and sleep.

You don't have a money problem; you have a lifestyle problem.  The "cure" isn't "spend more money to go back to what we used to do that felt less boring."  It's "find something better to do with my time than sit around eating cheap, generic food and watching TV."

You are filling your life with the equivalent of fast food:  something that is pleasurable in the short-term but deadly in the long-term.  It trains your body and mind to expect the next hit, and so when things start getting dull, you start getting antsy and fill the void with your next hit of short-term satisfaction.

This is not a satisfying way to live your life.  The problem with those short-term hits is that when you are lulled into that repeated pattern, days turn into weeks turn into months turn into years, and before you know it, boom, there's your life, and what do you have to show for it?  What real fun have you had?  What memorable events?  What did you add to this world? 

I'm not saying this to be mean; I'm saying it because it is the pattern we fell into, and so I can tell you from personal experience exactly how empty that is long-term. 

The "cure" for your situation is not to spend more money to resume old habits.  It's to find something different to do that challenges you.  Go to the gym.  Try a new hobby.  Take a class at the local CC.  Volunteer at a shelter or animal rescue.  Try a craft.  Start a home project.  Go for a family bike ride or hike.  Find a local festival that you know nothing about and go just because.  Throw the kids in the car and take a long drive one day to somewhere you've never been, just to have a picnic.  Decide that you're going to take the kids on an international trip in X years, and plan out where you want to go and what you want to do while you're there, and start researching so you know a good deal when you see one.  Spend the evening on the back deck with your spouse and a bottle of wine and NO devices, appreciating the nice weather and looking at the stars.  Pick a really complicated recipe you've always wanted to try and make it.  Or make a fun recipe with the kids -- my personal favorites are personal pizza night (individual doughs and toppings -- try a s'mores pizza for dessert) and homemade marshmallows (squirt them out using a ziploc with a hole cut in the corner) -- expect giant messes and tons of laughter and happy kids.  Rent a convertible on a nice day and drive with the top down.  Make a list of all those annoying little things in the house that need fixing and spend a day knocking them out.  Go to a garage sale, buy an old dresser, and refinish it.  Read all the MMM columns on stoicism and figure out for yourself why doing something hard is more satisfying in the long run than passively consuming.  Start a garden.  Go to the local school and throw/kick a ball around, or build gliders and throw them, or fly kites.  Buy a Vex robotics kit and build a really cool robot with your eldest -- or research science projects online and do things like make a potato clock or a soda bottle rocket.  Etc. etc. etc. 

You will note that some of these things cost money and some of them don't.  That's because, again, it's not about the money.  It's about using your resources to build the most satisfying life possible for you and your family.  Right now you're spending a metric shit-ton of money on crap that is not improving your life in any meaningful way.  So stop throwing your money away on -- literally -- mindless consumption (whether of food or TV).  Go do something, just to do it.  Find ways to spend your money that bring real value into your life.

[SunnyDays]

What Laura said.  If you can't fill the little time you have now, what will you do with yourself once you retire?

[ctuser1]

Thanks all for your replies. Our kids are still young. our eldest is 10 years and it will be 3 years before she is into high school. So the international travel can wait.

Eating out is something we all enjoy and it also helps avoid boredom. We also do some parks and libraries but the kids are keen to go to library every weekend day. We go out to eat pretty often like say 5 times a week (2 weekday nights, 3 times on the weekend). So 30$ per each eating out for 4 people, which is definitely not expensive per each outing. We try to pick cheap ones and try to keep the costs low.

When we stopped eating out, it really started to get boring on weekends. This is how our typical weekend used to go

Wake up and go for breakfast out to panera bread or noahs bagels
Go to a park after and let the kids play while we sit and talk or walk around the area
Come home and have some quick lunch at home
let the kids watch cartoon network while we both watch hulu movie or tv show (carribean life) for about 3 hours
now it starts getting boring; best thing to do here is go out for dinner and fill that gap
then come back and go to bed

Alternatively we used to go to library sometimes after the breakfast and eat out and come home in the evening. Then watch tv and sleep.

We used to do this when the kids were smaller. I calculated once, and our "eating out" bill was averaging $1600/mo. Of course one contributor was also that I had an expensive taste in find restaurant meals - and thought nothing about dropping $100 for a dinner for 2 adults + 2 kids in any of the local "expensive" restaurants.

At that time, we justified this by saying we don't have time. Indeed, both of us were working + 2 young kids do leave you overwhelmed.

We have gotten a lot better now. My restaurant bill last month was ~ $100. It doesn't hurt that we have both kinda settled down into a routine and feel less overwhelmed. 12 and 9 year olds don't need as much attention.

However, strictly looking back at it objectively, I am not really sure we needed to blow away all that money on eating out. The real break came for us once we "recognized" that our "justification machine" is a part of the problem - and learned to discard it. Could that be your problem too?

[StashingAway]

Some of my most relaxing weekends are cooking a somewhat complicated meal while chatting with my wife and listening to music. And eating a rewarding meal at the end is almost always more satisfying than buying one.

Perhaps switch off cooking meals on Saturday. You and a kid one weekend make dinner, then wife and another kid make dinner the next weekend. Or make biscuits and scones for breakfast. Or homemade pretzles on Sunday for the game. Cooking at home kills two birds with one stone; gets rid of boredom and replaces eating out. Plus it's almost always healthier. And a good life skill.

Maybe try it just on Saturdays- no need to quit restaurants cold turkey. I find that after years of cooking for myself, I rarely have a restaurant meal that I haven't made better at home.  Especially for the "cheap" ones (most chain restaurants and even a lot of the local ones). Now when I go to restaurants, I eat stuff that would be harder to source or make at home, which makes it feel that much more special!

But I definitely want to echo what others have said- your spending to entertainment ratio could be improved!

[whywork]

ah, great feedback.

Yes passive consumption seems to be the reason for our dissatisfaction. It is my wife who cooks mostly at home as I am too lazy. She also gets lazy on weekends and we eat out more. The solution seems to be more sharing and cooking together.

Laura listed a lot of individual things that can be done but what are some regular activities that people do which gives a sense of satisfaction (instead of passive consumption). I ask this from a post retirement perspective. Currently I can only think of watching TV or surfing laptop during retirement. The two other regular things I can add to the mix are: Physical exercise (gym or hikes or walks in parks) and Library (which feels like a co-working space replacing "work" in giving you a structure, social interaction and mental stimulation from reading books). Are there any other regular things like that?

[Villanelle]

ah, great feedback.

Yes passive consumption seems to be the reason for our dissatisfaction. It is my wife who cooks mostly at home as I am too lazy. She also gets lazy on weekends and we eat out more. The solution seems to be more sharing and cooking together.

Laura listed a lot of individual things that can be done but what are some regular activities that people do which gives a sense of satisfaction (instead of passive consumption). I ask this from a post retirement perspective. Currently I can only think of watching TV or surfing laptop during retirement. The two other regular things I can add to the mix are: Physical exercise (gym or hikes or walks in parks) and Library (which feels like a co-working space replacing "work" in giving you a structure, social interaction and mental stimulation from reading books). Are there any other regular things like that?

You are asking what people do for fun?  There are probably a million answers.  For me, the biggest thing is writing.  I have several novels in progress and also take one or two online classes each month related to the craft of writing (Usually ~$25 each).  Other than a one time expense for writing software (which isn't strictly necessary, and cost less than $50) those are the only costs.  This could easily be a free hobby. 

I also happen to live in a place with dozens of free, world-class museums and I enjoy checking those out.  Sometimes, my husband and I will go on a weekend day for just a couple hours, and explore one floor of a museum until we've seen the entire thing.

I also read.  And I'm in a book club.  And I spend time with friends.  I see no mention of friends in your posts.  Do you have a social life outside your family?  If not, I'd work on cultivating that.  Often my friends and I will do nothing.  Just sit in someone's living room and chat.  Sometimes, we hit a museum or go to lunch.  This week, one friend had soup group where everyone went to her house to hang out and eat her homemade soup. 

For a while, my husband and I were into playing board games.  We had a few we enjoyed playing with just the two of us.  We found that cooperative games, where we work together to beat the game instead of trying to beat one another, were best for us.  Having friends over to play was also fun.  This requires a one time investment in a game, and that's it.  And you can have a game night in your home without buying any games. There are plenty of games you can play that require no equipment or game pieces at all.  We've played one that our group called "gangster", but I don't know if it's the official name.  You can rotate hosting with friends.  You may have to/want to hire a sitter.  It could be free other than that if you wanted it to be.  (Pot luck snacks, so I suppose not free, but >$20, certainly.)

Do a wine tasting with friends, or a cheese tasting.  (At home.)

But these are the things that interest me and that I enjoy (and that are different from the ones you mentioned.)  You have to find what interests you.  My parents play bridge and tennis.  My mom does beading.  (They are retired and in their 70s and have incredibly full and robust schedules.)
 My sister throws dinner parties and enjoys cooking unusual foods.  My friend paints watercolors.  Another friend is teaching herself a new language.  For a while, I was teaching myself chess (beyond the basics of how to move the pieces) and I should get back to that.  Some neighbors golf. Another friend is into animal writes and lobbying (and recently attended the impeachment hearings, which sounds really fascinating). 

What interests you?  If you had no responsibilities, cost was no factor, you had all the time you wanted, and you weren't worried about not being good at sometime or a learning curve, what would you do?  What excites you?  What are you passionate about? 

[StashingAway]

ah, great feedback.

Yes passive consumption seems to be the reason for our dissatisfaction. It is my wife who cooks mostly at home as I am too lazy. She also gets lazy on weekends and we eat out more. The solution seems to be more sharing and cooking together.

Laura listed a lot of individual things that can be done but what are some regular activities that people do which gives a sense of satisfaction (instead of passive consumption). I ask this from a post retirement perspective. Currently I can only think of watching TV or surfing laptop during retirement. The two other regular things I can add to the mix are: Physical exercise (gym or hikes or walks in parks) and Library (which feels like a co-working space replacing "work" in giving you a structure, social interaction and mental stimulation from reading books). Are there any other regular things like that?

Holy cow, yes! This hardest thing is that there are too many options to describe, not too few. It can feel a bit like a choice paradox when looking at all of them. Gardening can take a lot of time or a little time, and a lot of $ or a little. You can learn about growing herbs or flowers or whatnot indoors and start easy. Woodworking or refinishing furniture. There is a thread on this forum about making sourdough bread. It's hard to say what you will like until you try it; I can tell you what I like, but I have specific things that I'm drawn to. Many of which I found by accident just by going out on a limb and trying! I really enjoy sewing, for instance, and my wife wants nothing to do with it.

I personally like exercise to be a by-product of hobbies, not the main intent. For instance, learning a martial art can check a lot of boxes (exercise, social, learning, etc.) without feeling like you're taking proscribed medication. Making a goal to learn all of the local trails or birds or something. Mountain biking is amazingly fun and you get to see more of the world.

As a side note on cooking; a lot of times weeknight meals with families can feel boring because they need to just get nutrition into people, so they are less inspired and more routine. One trick (I find) is to make the weekend meal a different type of meal; fancy homemade ravioli or some cool taco combination that take more prep. It makes it feel more like a "restaurant experience" than plain mashed potatoes and chicken or whatever your fast weeknight meal is. Especially if you bump your grocery budget up a little as you bump your restaurant budget down. You can usually make a heck of a dish for what you would pay at a restaurant! Then if you're more inspired it you may feel less "lazy".



 

[moof]

Budget for fun stuff, including eating out.  Put it in a dedicated account.  Now spend it and feel ZERO guilt.

If you feel deprived, revisit the allocation to that account accordingly.

[marty998]

Don't the kids place any sport on the weekends? Soccer, swimming, tennis? Gymnastics? Dancing? What about music? Playing an instrument? Band practice?

You might find that through your kids hobbies there are social teams that the adults participate in too...

[Dee18]

Try playing some board games.  Our library has ones we can check out to see if we like them before buying.  Go to some sports events.  The university I teach at admits kids under 12 free to everything.  Many sports, including women's basketball, all track meet,s and tennis matches are free to everyone.  They also have free music concerts frequently.  Go to your local museum and ask for kid activities.  They will often have a scavenger hunt that is for for everyone.  Teach the kids life skills:  cooking, baking, sewing, doing laundry, and home repairs.  Kids gain a sense of confidence from doing, not from being told they are good. Take turns among the family letting each person choose an activity that involves lots of movement:  cycling, skating, hiking, swimming.  Look online for what tourists do in your area.

[Metalcat]

Agreed with others, you don't have a spending problem, you have a boredom problem.

I used to go out for dinners out of boredom as well, and it didn't make my life less boring, it just made the boredom more bearable.

I did it because I suddenly had an enormous income and no energy and wanted to make the hard work feel "worth it". It didn't last long, within a few months I was fed up with the boredom, feeling a lot of "sigh, now what?" after a restaurant meal, and discovered MMM and got a life instead.

I can't tell you what life to get yourself, but I can tell you that if you are bored, you are doing something wrong. Life is filled with incredible things to do.

[whywork]

Those are all great suggestions.

Honestly though, I am too lazy and can't motivate myself to do difficult things that take work. Sitting on sofa and watching TV and then when I get bored switch to doing something on the laptop (Play a game, watch youtube hulu etc.., read online forums, do numbers on my fire spreadsheet)

My weekends go like this. I'm sure my retirement will go like this too. I like going to library and reading books and might do that one thing. And eating out sometimes. The problem is I am not a social person too and it is mostly our family. We don't have any friends or guests. Writing, board games all sound good. Might try them

[Gremlin]

It's okay not to be a social person.  But it can be a real problem to be anti-social.  At the risk of being direct, it appears that you are not even engaging with your family.  Being an effective parent and spouse takes work and it can be difficult.  For the sake of your family, I hope you can motivate yourself to at least do the difficult things that take work in being a good husband and father.  If not, I would suggest you might benefit from seeking some professional counselling.

When our kids were the age that yours are, we always made sure we had at least one outdoorsy activity each weekend.  Quite often our default would be getting the kids on their bikes (or skates) and riding to the park whilst we ran beside them (they were young and not fast, so that worked).  I would always favour this over "going to the gym".  First, if boredom is an issue for you, then it's also likely to be an issue for your wife and kids.  This gets you all going, not just you.  But it's also great in terms of being a role model for your kids.  Exercise is a big part of a healthy and balanced lifestyle.  Demonstrating that to your kids is much more effective than telling them that.  Especially when they see that it can be something fun for the whole family.

We also looked to have board games readily available as a legitimate alternative to flopping in front of the TV for several hours on a weekend.  Or a jigsaw puzzle sat on a spare table - jigsaws were great because the kids only had to commit to it until they got bored of it and moved on to something else to entertain themselves.  But if we got them in the right frame of mind we could find the entire family connecting together (!) for well over an hour.

We also made a lot of "fun" recipes with the kids on weekends.  Yes, sometimes the kitchen looked like a bomb hit it afterwards, but cleaning up was always part of the "game".  As well as finding it enjoyable, my kids now know how to make a wide variety of dishes.  Part of making this possible is planning our meals and buying groceries for the week to support this.  We get the kids involved in choosing what they want to make.  It's probably not the end of the world if one Saturday night the kids want to cook pancakes for dinner or nutella toast in a bowl of bran flakes with milk (now that was a weird one), but eventually you'll get some great life skills instilled.  More importantly, you are doing stuff together as a family.  They're engaging with you and not a screen.  You're engaging with them and not a screen.

[whywork]

It's okay not to be a social person.  But it can be a real problem to be anti-social.  At the risk of being direct, it appears that you are not even engaging with your family.  Being an effective parent and spouse takes work and it can be difficult.  For the sake of your family, I hope you can motivate yourself to at least do the difficult things that take work in being a good husband and father.  If not, I would suggest you might benefit from seeking some professional counselling.

Thank you for the direct feedback. You are right. I am a lazy father and husband. I can provide for the family but rarely take on any work like washing dishes or doing things with kids. Recently a mentor suggested me to spend more time with kids and this weekend we went out to hiking and I'm trying to reduce my internet time and prioritize kids time over it. Don't know how long I will stick though

[Sibley]

It's okay not to be a social person.  But it can be a real problem to be anti-social.  At the risk of being direct, it appears that you are not even engaging with your family.  Being an effective parent and spouse takes work and it can be difficult.  For the sake of your family, I hope you can motivate yourself to at least do the difficult things that take work in being a good husband and father.  If not, I would suggest you might benefit from seeking some professional counselling.

Thank you for the direct feedback. You are right. I am a lazy father and husband. I can provide for the family but rarely take on any work like washing dishes or doing things with kids. Recently a mentor suggested me to spend more time with kids and this weekend we went out to hiking and I'm trying to reduce my internet time and prioritize kids time over it. Don't know how long I will stick though

This isn't something you can half-ass. Because in 20 years, your kids are grown and if it was mom who did everything with the kids, then mom's the one with the relationship with them. You will be left out in the cold, and then you're going to spend the rest of your life regretting it. Assuming your wife doesn't get fed up with your lazy ass and divorce you, because she doesn't need an adult child to take care of as well.

You say you're lazy. I'm wondering if you're depressed or something like that. Investigate it.

[Dancin'Dog]

It could also be a nutritional deficiency.  Maybe you need more vitamin D or Iron, or something. 

Being bored because you're too lazy to find something interesting to do is something most people would consider a problem.  Have you felt this way for a long time? 

It seems like you need to "splurge" on figuring out and finding a cure for your laziness.  That is why you and your family are bored, you're just coasting along in the slow lane.  You need to figure out how to release your parking brake.  Your family deserves better, and you do to. 

[Villanelle]

I believe that in 95% of cases, "lazy" isn't a real thing.  It's depression or confusion of anxiety or fear. 

When you say, "I don't know how long I am going to stick to it", you've already given yourself permission to fail.  Not just permission, but you've made it in inevitability. 

Set a SPECIFIC goal, and don't make it an option.  You are a grown man.  You can spend 2 hours a weekend engaged with your wife and kids.  IF you don't want to, then look yourself in the mirror and say, "developing a meaningful relationship with my kids and wife isn't important to me.  Living a more fulfilled life also isn't important to me. I am fine being a lazy father and a lazy husband, even if it means my marriage fails and my kids don't respect me.  I don't care enough about my kids, my wife, or myself to make it worth two hours."  And if you can do that, cool.  If you can't then commit yourself and do it, and every time you falter, go back to that mirror and try to say that to yourself.

It's two hours a weekend doing something meaningful with kids, wife, or ideally both. 

Once you are 4 months (~17 weekends) it will likely/hopefully be habit.  Once it feels natural, you can consider converting perhaps one of those weekend adventures each month into a full day thing.  But don't even consider that until you've kept your commitment to yourself and your family long enough that it feels inevitable and natural, like showering or brushing your teeth or checking your email at work--just something you do. 

You might also consider seeing if you can set your wifi router to turn off from 6-7 every night, or some other good time for your family, if the internet is a distraction for you. 

And yes, you might also consider working through this with a professional counselor.    Having someone to help you figure out the way you think and how to adjust that when it isn't serving you well can be truly transformative. 

[whywork]

It could also be a nutritional deficiency.  Maybe you need more vitamin D or Iron, or something. 

Being bored because you're too lazy to find something interesting to do is something most people would consider a problem.  Have you felt this way for a long time? 

It seems like you need to "splurge" on figuring out and finding a cure for your laziness.  That is why you and your family are bored, you're just coasting along in the slow lane.  You need to figure out how to release your parking brake.  Your family deserves better, and you do to. 

Yeah I have felt this for a long time. I was lazy since childhood. Hated going to school. Hated work. Did bare minimum everywhere or worked only out of fear of survival. Luckily got this high paying job and looking at the possibility of FIRE. Being a single income family all along didn't help much but hopefully will be done with work life soon. I definitely care for my family and children and would be working for long enough to give them a good financial support; pay for college and help them achieve FI too. Hence the 2.5m goal. I am frugal and could happily FIRE now at 1.2m in a VLCOL and still pay their college. But I will not give up till I reach the 2.5m (hopefully in 5 years) so that I can give both kids a 1.5 million each by the time they are 40 years

It is not like I don't care but I can't get myself to do things. I am diabetic but I am too lazy to walk / exercise daily. People say spending time with kids helps (and I do spend good enough time but in a lazy way like eating out, watching movies with them, snuggling together, lazying in the park on a mat while they play etc) but I think it is not such a big risk that it motivates me to do something about it.

[APowers]

It could also be a nutritional deficiency.  Maybe you need more vitamin D or Iron, or something. 

Being bored because you're too lazy to find something interesting to do is something most people would consider a problem.  Have you felt this way for a long time? 

It seems like you need to "splurge" on figuring out and finding a cure for your laziness.  That is why you and your family are bored, you're just coasting along in the slow lane.  You need to figure out how to release your parking brake.  Your family deserves better, and you do to. 

Yeah I have felt this for a long time. I was lazy since childhood. Hated going to school. Hated work. Did bare minimum everywhere or worked only out of fear of survival. Luckily got this high paying job and looking at the possibility of FIRE. Being a single income family all along didn't help much but hopefully will be done with work life soon. I definitely care for my family and children and would be working for long enough to give them a good financial support; pay for college and help them achieve FI too. Hence the 2.5m goal. I am frugal and could happily FIRE now at 1.2m in a VLCOL and still pay their college. But I will not give up till I reach the 2.5m (hopefully in 5 years) so that I can give both kids a 1.5 million each by the time they are 40 years

It is not like I don't care but I can't get myself to do things. I am diabetic but I am too lazy to walk / exercise daily. People say spending time with kids helps (and I do spend good enough time but in a lazy way like eating out, watching movies with them, snuggling together, lazying in the park on a mat while they play etc) but I think it is not such a big risk that it motivates me to do something about it.

Dude. First off, w/regard to your original post, $75k/yr spending is not barebones or low (and really hard to characterize as frugal). So when you ask "how much is a good amount to splurge?".....um....you already are splurging. A lot.

Secondly, "I care, but can't get myself to do things" is a big problem. "I'm diabetic, but don't walk/exercise daily" is a huge problem-- it is a health investment that will compound negatively in a huge way. My suggestion: you should splurge on therapy for whatever mental block is preventing you from doing things that you know are good for you. THERAPY. You make more than enough money that it will not be a hardship for you, and I cannot recommend it highly enough. THERAPY. Have I said it enough? Get. Help.

[renata ricotta]

I don’t mean this to be snarky or rude, I’m genuinely curious: in your opinion, what are you living for? You have no hobbies but are frequently bored and do things just to “pass the time.” Pass the time to what? Death? Do you have any goals? Passions? Things that bring you a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment? Do you even want those? If not, I think therapy is your first priority before you decide to pick a hobby based on a comment here.

As an aside, I think spending more money on travel would be a waste before you work on yourself. If you can’t engage with and enjoy your own city, family, weekend, etc what makes you think you’ll engage with and find something meaningful from another country’s culture? Travel isn’t inherently entertaining unless you can find that engagement. Otherwise it’s just kind of a scavenger hunt to take obligatory photos in front of a list of predetermined tourist attractions just to say you did it.

The hobbies/personal projects I have spent a lot of time and money on (the money worth it to me because it is very rewarding):
- learning and improving a second language, including immersive travel
- focused and frequent yoga practice, including retreats and a yoga teacher training
- eating and cooking better (paired with simple herb gardening)
- reading books, reading academic works about the books I’ve read (literature major, reliving the glory days of undergrad buried in a library), listening to podcasts about books I’ve read, finding new beautiful places to read or old ones I’ve forgotten about (the beach, a cosy cafe, a patio with a glass of wine)
- hiking and camping, improving my skills over time to do more challenging trips, including through hikes and solo trips
- learning how to dance salsa and bachata (still pretty new at this)

Of course, I still watch tv and eat out - sometimes a lot. But it feels like something I’m excited to do to season my already full life. It’s not “passing time,” because life is too short to ever just pass time.

[socaso]

It could also be a nutritional deficiency.  Maybe you need more vitamin D or Iron, or something. 

Being bored because you're too lazy to find something interesting to do is something most people would consider a problem.  Have you felt this way for a long time? 

It seems like you need to "splurge" on figuring out and finding a cure for your laziness.  That is why you and your family are bored, you're just coasting along in the slow lane.  You need to figure out how to release your parking brake.  Your family deserves better, and you do to. 

Yeah I have felt this for a long time. I was lazy since childhood. Hated going to school. Hated work. Did bare minimum everywhere or worked only out of fear of survival. Luckily got this high paying job and looking at the possibility of FIRE. Being a single income family all along didn't help much but hopefully will be done with work life soon. I definitely care for my family and children and would be working for long enough to give them a good financial support; pay for college and help them achieve FI too. Hence the 2.5m goal. I am frugal and could happily FIRE now at 1.2m in a VLCOL and still pay their college. But I will not give up till I reach the 2.5m (hopefully in 5 years) so that I can give both kids a 1.5 million each by the time they are 40 years

It is not like I don't care but I can't get myself to do things. I am diabetic but I am too lazy to walk / exercise daily. People say spending time with kids helps (and I do spend good enough time but in a lazy way like eating out, watching movies with them, snuggling together, lazying in the park on a mat while they play etc) but I think it is not such a big risk that it motivates me to do something about it.

I think you are really good at calling yourself names and it's getting in the way of moving forward. You need to work on seeing yourself as a complete person with strengths and weakness. It's very unlikely that you got your high paying job just by luck, you are probably good at it and bring something to the table. You need to work on your personal life, you seem to see that and want to make changes. Pick one thing you want to try and pursue it. Don't get bogged down thinking about all the other things you could pursue, just work on the one thing. If it turns out that thing doesn't lead to a lifelong interest, no big deal, you tried it and learned things. You can pick a new thing. The most important thing is to not let yourself off the hook by saying you are lazy. That's just an easy out.

I really liked a book called Superhuman by Habit. The author breaks down a bunch of different habit forming tricks that helped him achieve his goals. I also like the Simple Elephant planner. You can start it at any time. I write in mine every single day and keep up with my achievements and goals. They have a space to write your weekly goals and review your weekly successes and where you can do better. This kind of record keeping is very motivating to me and keeps me from my backsliding because I can see that I have actually made progress. There are also a bunch of blank pages in the back for whatever you please. I am currently using mine to track various things like the monthly progress of our retirement accounts, weight loss goals I am working on, so on and so forth. Just keep yourself accountable. It actually feels good to look back at what you have done. Some days I don't know if I have any progress to track but when I think about it I've usually made some small progress in some area.

[Laura33]

Yeah I have felt this for a long time. I was lazy since childhood. Hated going to school. Hated work. Did bare minimum everywhere or worked only out of fear of survival. Luckily got this high paying job and looking at the possibility of FIRE. Being a single income family all along didn't help much but hopefully will be done with work life soon. I definitely care for my family and children and would be working for long enough to give them a good financial support; pay for college and help them achieve FI too. Hence the 2.5m goal. I am frugal and could happily FIRE now at 1.2m in a VLCOL and still pay their college. But I will not give up till I reach the 2.5m (hopefully in 5 years) so that I can give both kids a 1.5 million each by the time they are 40 years

It is not like I don't care but I can't get myself to do things. I am diabetic but I am too lazy to walk / exercise daily. People say spending time with kids helps (and I do spend good enough time but in a lazy way like eating out, watching movies with them, snuggling together, lazying in the park on a mat while they play etc) but I think it is not such a big risk that it motivates me to do something about it.

OK, I take back everything I said before.  Take your fun money and give it to a therapist.  Now.

I want to repeat what @bridget said:  you seem to be so relieved that you're near the end of the rat race.  But why?  If you can't fill even a few hours a week now with something enjoyable that induces you to get off your ass, then why in the world do you think you'll magically be happier when you now have even more free time to kill doing absolutely nothing at all?  Honestly, at this point the most likely outcome is that you retire and then find yourself incredibly bored and with even less meaning in your life and you spiral into depression and take even worse care of yourself and your family. 

Here's the deal:  no one can motivate you to get off your ass and participate in your own life except you.  You are the one telling yourself you are lazy; you are the one convincing yourself that any change you make is doomed to fail before you even start; you are the one giving yourself permission to allow your ass to fuse itself into the couch.  And you've gotten away with it, because you have surrounded yourself with people who are either happy to enable you or are sufficiently satisfied with your bare-minimum effort that they are willing to pick up your slack.  Basically, you're behaving the way you are because you can get away with it.  And who wouldn't rather, in the moment, watch TV or play video games than do something unpleasant or uncomfortable? 

But long-term, you are killing yourself and wasting your life.  Look around you.  What you see, right now, is exactly how the rest of your life is going to be.  In fact, this is probably the best it's going to be, because your health is going to get worse and your kids are going to become snarky teenagers and at some point your wife is probably going to get fed up with your boring life.  When you do what you've always done, you get what you've always gotten.

Of course, it doesn't need to be that way.  All it requires is for you to get your ass off the couch and engage in your own life.  Take a walk.  Get down on the floor and play a game with your 3-year-old.  Take over Saturday cooking chores.  Be an equal partner to your wife and an equal parent for your children.  Pull your own weight.  The side bonus is that you will be happier for it.

How do you do that?  You make it so you can't do otherwise.  You set the router on a timer and unplug the TV after 7 PM.  You tell your wife what you are struggling with and ask her to hold you accountable for cooking on Saturdays.  You impose some horrible consequence for failing (like, say, donating to a cause you hate).  And you reward yourself for succeeding -- like, say, going out to dinner on the last Saturday of the month if you've cooked all of the Saturdays before.  You talk to a therapist for other ideas.

The dichotomy you present is pretty interesting.  You clearly pride yourself on being frugal and saving for the future -- on deferred gratification, putting long-term benefits over short-term temptations.  And yet when it comes to the non-monetary aspects of your own life, you are consistently putting short-term (and short-lived) pleasures over what you damn well know is in your own and your family's best long-term interest.  Why is that? 

(FWIW, not being mean.  You remind me a little too much of my worst fears for my own future once I retire, and that scares the hell out of me.  But that's part of the reason I'm seeing a therapist regularly, to break those habits and that self-talk before push comes to shove and I blow whatever time I have left.)

[whywork]

I think you are really good at calling yourself names and it's getting in the way of moving forward. You need to work on seeing yourself as a complete person with strengths and weakness. It's very unlikely that you got your high paying job just by luck, you are probably good at it and bring something to the table. You need to work on your personal life, you seem to see that and want to make changes. Pick one thing you want to try and pursue it. Don't get bogged down thinking about all the other things you could pursue, just work on the one thing. If it turns out that thing doesn't lead to a lifelong interest, no big deal, you tried it and learned things. You can pick a new thing. The most important thing is to not let yourself off the hook by saying you are lazy. That's just an easy out.

I really liked a book called Superhuman by Habit. The author breaks down a bunch of different habit forming tricks that helped him achieve his goals. I also like the Simple Elephant planner. You can start it at any time. I write in mine every single day and keep up with my achievements and goals. They have a space to write your weekly goals and review your weekly successes and where you can do better. This kind of record keeping is very motivating to me and keeps me from my backsliding because I can see that I have actually made progress. There are also a bunch of blank pages in the back for whatever you please. I am currently using mine to track various things like the monthly progress of our retirement accounts, weight loss goals I am working on, so on and so forth. Just keep yourself accountable. It actually feels good to look back at what you have done. Some days I don't know if I have any progress to track but when I think about it I've usually made some small progress in some area.

Honestly blown away by your post. Right from that first sentence. Thanks for your practical advice, I will read those books and try to follow the practical advice in implementing. I'm good at coding that got me into my current company (a FANG). I do enough to keep my job but don't push myself harder

[whywork]

Dude. First off, w/regard to your original post, $75k/yr spending is not barebones or low (and really hard to characterize as frugal). So when you ask "how much is a good amount to splurge?".....um....you already are splurging. A lot.

Housing is most of it. If I take out the current 300$ eating, 400$ vacation and 400$ life insurance (due to my health issues), we spend only 2k on rest. Those are also because of my wife's shopping and other spending. I rarely buy stuff or spend anything. Some of my clothes are from 10 years back

[whywork]

I don’t mean this to be snarky or rude, I’m genuinely curious: in your opinion, what are you living for? You have no hobbies but are frequently bored and do things just to “pass the time.” Pass the time to what? Death? Do you have any goals? Passions? Things that bring you a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment? Do you even want those? If not, I think therapy is your first priority before you decide to pick a hobby based on a comment here.

As an aside, I think spending more money on travel would be a waste before you work on yourself.

I am living to enjoy my life. The things I enjoy most in the order. Laptop (watching videos, movies, interacting on forums, playing online games, searching and learning about something, writing stories online etc), Food, Life in general. I am living to enjoy all of these. Passion is a nonsense. I don't have any. My biggest goal is giving my kids a good life. Then getting myself out of work life. Then living the life above.

I don't like travel much. Especially taking flight, the effort involved etc..

[whywork]

OK, I take back everything I said before.  Take your fun money and give it to a therapist.  Now.

I want to repeat what @bridget said:  you seem to be so relieved that you're near the end of the rat race.  But why?  If you can't fill even a few hours a week now with something enjoyable that induces you to get off your ass, then why in the world do you think you'll magically be happier when you now have even more free time to kill doing absolutely nothing at all?  Honestly, at this point the most likely outcome is that you retire and then find yourself incredibly bored and with even less meaning in your life and you spiral into depression and take even worse care of yourself and your family. 

Here's the deal:  no one can motivate you to get off your ass and participate in your own life except you.  You are the one telling yourself you are lazy; you are the one convincing yourself that any change you make is doomed to fail before you even start; you are the one giving yourself permission to allow your ass to fuse itself into the couch.  And you've gotten away with it, because you have surrounded yourself with people who are either happy to enable you or are sufficiently satisfied with your bare-minimum effort that they are willing to pick up your slack.  Basically, you're behaving the way you are because you can get away with it.  And who wouldn't rather, in the moment, watch TV or play video games than do something unpleasant or uncomfortable? 

But long-term, you are killing yourself and wasting your life. Look around you.  What you see, right now, is exactly how the rest of your life is going to be.  In fact, this is probably the best it's going to be, because your health is going to get worse and your kids are going to become snarky teenagers and at some point your wife is probably going to get fed up with your boring life.  When you do what you've always done, you get what you've always gotten.

Of course, it doesn't need to be that way.  All it requires is for you to get your ass off the couch and engage in your own life.  Take a walk.  Get down on the floor and play a game with your 3-year-old.  Take over Saturday cooking chores.  Be an equal partner to your wife and an equal parent for your children.  Pull your own weight.  The side bonus is that you will be happier for it.

How do you do that?  You make it so you can't do otherwise.  You set the router on a timer and unplug the TV after 7 PM.  You tell your wife what you are struggling with and ask her to hold you accountable for cooking on Saturdays.  You impose some horrible consequence for failing (like, say, donating to a cause you hate).  And you reward yourself for succeeding -- like, say, going out to dinner on the last Saturday of the month if you've cooked all of the Saturdays before.  You talk to a therapist for other ideas.

The dichotomy you present is pretty interesting.  You clearly pride yourself on being frugal and saving for the future -- on deferred gratification, putting long-term benefits over short-term temptations.  And yet when it comes to the non-monetary aspects of your own life, you are consistently putting short-term (and short-lived) pleasures over what you damn well know is in your own and your family's best long-term interest.  Why is that? 

(FWIW, not being mean.  You remind me a little too much of my worst fears for my own future once I retire, and that scares the hell out of me.  But that's part of the reason I'm seeing a therapist regularly, to break those habits and that self-talk before push comes to shove and I blow whatever time I have left.)

You say you are not trying to be mean but your message is unpalatable. Look at socaso's post. You start with a praise or something positive to say and balance criticism with positive stuff. I know it's hard to do, I can't do it either.

That said, let me address some bold parts in your post. All you guys gave me great advice. I don't deny any of it. I am just refusing to act inspired when I know my old habits will come back. And I don't see anything wrong with wanting to live a life of pleasure and laziness as long as it doesn't hurt others. It may be good to push yourself and it might give you more happiness but I have an inertia and it is harder for me and I don't see the added happiness worth the effort. But I will try as socaso said one at a time.

There is no dichotomy. Laziness and frugality can go together. I am frugal because I am lazy (to work). I see most happiness already comes with my freedom. The extra spending on luxuries now don't add much to happiness

[whywork]

And many suggested therapy. Do you really think that helps? I talked to a couple and found them to be wasting my time with ineffective common sense questions. I am trying meditation instead. I read some good self development books and I see these therapist guys repeating that stuff without really affecting anything. I believe more in meditation as I feel believing our thoughts (to be true) is the core of our suffering and a practice (like meditation) is needed to loosen the hold of thoughts on us. Just therapeutic talk alone and discipline alone can't do it in my belief

[dd564]

Whywork,

How much of the 75k is going to housing / mortgage payment?
That will determine how frugal you really are.


My opinion is different than most.  I am "lazy" by nature as well, but I enjoy cooking. You don't seem to.
There is no reason you should force yourself to start enjoying cooking at this point. Especially if you can afford to not do it.
My wife and I both cook, and even though I enjoy it, cooking can really suck the life out of you when you are working, come home, and have to decide what you are going to cook for the next 7 meals over a weekend.

It's mentally draining for my wife to try and not become repetitive.  Also, on weekends when I do cook, and I enjoy it, I find myself spending easily 3-4 hours in the kitchen while my kids are spending time elsewhere.

I think your weekend schedule is fine with grabbing breakfast out since your family enjoys it along with going to a park.

I was not good with interacting with my kids at a younger, age, but just spending time outside with them is what matters and just playing off their behavior is all you need to do.
Looking for bugs, picking up sticks. Starting to throw snow balls as a rock, playing some sports, going for a walk.

I wasn't a big fan of walking, but after I got in the habit I found it very mind-clearing and therapeutic.
Walking with your kids can be fun because they'll give you a new vision of the world through their eyes.

[StashingAway]

And many suggested therapy. Do you really think that helps? I talked to a couple and found them to be wasting my time with ineffective common sense questions. I am trying meditation instead. I read some good self development books and I see these therapist guys repeating that stuff without really affecting anything. I believe more in meditation as I feel believing our thoughts (to be true) is the core of our suffering and a practice (like meditation) is needed to loosen the hold of thoughts on us. Just therapeutic talk alone and discipline alone can't do it in my belief

Are you type 1 or type 2? My cringe from your posts is your lack of exercise... and your comment that you may pick up the gym after retirement is also not a great way to look at it. If you don't pick it up now, you won't then, either... You should do something. Your body is an accumulation of how you treat it (just like passive investing, doing a little every day is much more effective than doing a lot in the future). Walking for meditative purposes seems perfect. You might find you have more energy. You don't have to walk fast or far or long at first, just something to get yourself moving. Exercise is good for your brain and heart and health. It makes watching youtube videos much more rewarding at the end of the day.

Try to do something every day- even if it's just a 10-15 minute walk. More, preferably, but whatever gets you out the door. Maybe take a kid, or perhaps just use it as your time to meditate.

[lhamo]

Do you like podcasts?  This recent episode of The Hidden Brain has an excellent summary of some of the latest research on how habit building actually works.

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/11/787160734/creatures-of-habit-how-habits-shape-who-we-are-and-who-we-become

Basically what works best is to set up your environment so that the desired behaviors become easy/natural/pleasant to adopt (the opening bit about the design of the Bullitt building here in Seattle is a great example) and scaffold new behaviors on top of old ones until they become habitual.

The book The Power of Habit is also a good resource.

Re: therapy, it sounds like you have had a couple of really bad therapists.  I had one of those, but later found two good ones.  If you really want to change your life/your habits, talking to someone more skilled can be immensely helpful.  Might be worth experimenting with some of the new platforms like Talkspace or Better Help -- I think both of those let you change people until you find one that fits.

FWIW, I am also pretty lazy after FIRE -- especially in the winter, when it is hard to get out in the garden.  At the moment I am enjoying not having to answer to anyone else's schedule (though  mine does largely revolve around my kids and the school calendar) and being able to do as I please most days.  Some days that is nothing more than cleaning the house and binging netflix.  But I'm HAPPY doing those things.  And other days I do a lot more.  Rarely does my happiness revolve around spending money.

[wenchsenior]

And many suggested therapy. Do you really think that helps? I talked to a couple and found them to be wasting my time with ineffective common sense questions. I am trying meditation instead. I read some good self development books and I see these therapist guys repeating that stuff without really affecting anything. I believe more in meditation as I feel believing our thoughts (to be true) is the core of our suffering and a practice (like meditation) is needed to loosen the hold of thoughts on us. Just therapeutic talk alone and discipline alone can't do it in my belief

You might try finding a cognitive behavioral therapist, assuming that wasn't the specialty of the ones you tried. CBT and mindfulness techniques are very similar in some ways.

I kind of relate to being lazy by nature, but what I've found is waiting for myself to eventually just 'change' means that change NEVER happens.  I really have to structure my life in such a way as to strongly discourage unhealthy habits and strongly support healthy ones; it simply has to be a priority, and it takes more effort compared with someone like e.g., my rather hyperactive sister, who gets actively agitated if she sits in one place for longer than half an hour.  You have to figure out 'hacks' to get around any barriers your particular personality presents.  E.g., I am at risk of diabetes b/c of an endocrine disorder, and had to drastically change my diet around age 30. Before that, I lived mostly on carbs....lots and lots of carbs... and didn't pay much attention to nutrition, and had unawares made my health condition much worse.  It seemed impossible and overwhelming to change 30 years of habit.  Turns out it wasn't at all, it just took some focused effort to change patterns at the beginning (first 3 months or so).  And 15+ years later, I still eat the 'new way', even though I still like all the crap carbs I always liked when I was young. 

Sadly, I didn't make a similar effort with exercise and I HUGELY regret it.  I was very spotty about efforts toward physical fitness in my 30s.  I kept thinking, "I'll get to it" and then one day I was 40 and my body was in terrible condition.  I was so unfit by 40 that by the time I finally set my mind to changing THAT habit it was SO much harder to rebuild and maintain fitness.  I mean, I'm so glad I finally got my shit together and am making consistent effort now, but  I wish to hell I could go back in time and punch myself in the face to WAKE UP AND GET ON IT. 

Please don't make the mistake I did, esp not when you have kids (I didn't) and serious consequences (kidney problems, heart disease, blindness) potentially coming at you.

[Captain FIRE]

I am just refusing to act inspired when I know my old habits will come back...[snip]...It may be good to push yourself and it might give you more happiness but I have an inertia and it is harder for me and I don't see the added happiness worth the effort.

Think you can, think you can't, either way you're right.

Why do you think it's harder for you than others?  That seems to be a pretty big assumption.  And how will you know it's not worth the effort unless you try?

And I don't see anything wrong with wanting to live a life of pleasure and laziness as long as it doesn't hurt others.

Would your wife and kids agree that they aren't being hurt?  From my perspective, it seems that your lifestyle IS hurting them, even if not directly obvious.  Your spouse has to do most of the parenting and the kids are missing the involvement of a second parent or a good role model for engaging in and enjoying life, which can set them up for unhealthy habits in life.

[AMandM]

I am living to enjoy my life. The things I enjoy most in the order. Laptop (watching videos, movies, interacting on forums, playing online games, searching and learning about something, writing stories online etc), Food, Life in general. I am living to enjoy all of these.

But you also say you don't enjoy this life, you find it boring.

Passion is a nonsense. I don't have any. My biggest goal is giving my kids a good life. Then getting myself out of work life. Then living the life above.

Your kids need more than your money to have a good life, and they need more than a dad whose main interest is watching internet videos.

I am just refusing to act inspired when I know my old habits will come back.

I used to feel this way, but I have changed my mind and now am convinced it's worth pursuing improvement even if you expect it won't be permanent. Perhaps I can convince you, too. ;-)  There are several reasons. One, the obvious philosophical reason that if there's to be any (even tiny) chance of a permanent improvement it has to start with what is initially a change that can backslide: I may not believe I can permanently maintain a good exercise regime, but if I don't exercise now I am guaranteeing that my unfit state continues. Two, even a temporary improvement is better than no improvement at all: playing hide-and-seek with my kids once is better than never doing it. Three, the temporary improvement may leave you at a better baseline than before (in a sense, a permanent but partial improvement): I may not develop routines that keep my living room permanently tidy, but maybe I'll at least get in the habit of clearing away the dirty dishes each day. Four, sometimes an improvement turns out to be more rewarding than anticipated, and therefore easier to maintain. When I joined a local exercise bootcamp that several of my neighbours attend, I found the social aspects gave it a combination of fun and challenge that kept me coming back, so that for the first time in my 55 years I was exercising regularly; then the sense of well-being from my improved physical state made it even more attractive.

Honestly, I think in your case simply moving more would be a game changer. Less screen time and more fresh air can only be beneficial to you, both physically and mentally/emotionally/spiritually, and it can be better quality time with your family.  Since you already go to the park, why not walk with the kids through the park instead of lying on a mat? Push them on the swings, play tag, play Simon Says, dig in the sandpit together, lead a treasure hunt for bugs or things that start with the letter T, climb trees, look at dirt with a magnifying glass, throw a ball... anything active that engages you and them with each other and with the world around you.

Good luck!

[Villanelle]

Youare seriously floundering.

Your initial question was about adding international travel, then you later say you don't like travel much.  So why would you want to add more travel to your life?  It's quite clear you are unfulfilled and you are searching for *something*.  And I think that's supported by your other posts about moving to where your children will go to college.  I think that's just you want anything to look forward to, and because you do love your kids, you are clinging to them as part of your plan, in ways that are unrealistic and probably unhealthy.  (Unhealthy in the sense that you aren't cultivating yourself or your own life and interests.)

When you sit down to watch a video or play an online game, do you actually *enjoy* it?  Or does it feel good because it is something to do, much in the same way that some people eat when they are bored.  That doesn't mean they are actually enjoying the food, but it feels satisfying because it is something to occupy them and it far better than boredom.

If the therapists you talked to weren't helpful, that means they weren't a good fit.  Print out this thread and bring it to your first appointment.  (Before that, talk to them on the phone and see if in that few minutes you feel like there's at least a chance at a good fit.)  Hear their thoughts.  Give it 3-4 appointments and if all you feel you are getting is platitudes and common sense, find another therapist.  Diring that initial phone call, them the what you told us--that you've tried this and in the past you feel like you got obvious things that werent helpful, and see what they say.  Ask them what they will do to try to avoid that. 

Once again, to me, it is clear you love your kids.  But you are their role model, and seeing a couch potato with no passion for life or anything in it is not good for them.  If you can't do it for yourself, do it for them. 

Pick ONE THING.  Maybe Friday nights you rotate and spend 30 minutes with each kid (one per week) doing something engaging. Since their ages are spread out, it might be easier to do this individually.  Three kids, three weeks, and then the fourth (and fifth when applicable) week you all hang out together doing something.  Going on a walk.  Playing a board game.  Working on a puzzle.  Playing catch.  Riding a bike--teaching the younger ones to ride a bike.  Reading a book out loud together.  Writing a story together.  (You can google for lots of online writing prompts for kids, and since this is one of the few things you actually enjoy, it seems like an especially good fit.)  Learn chess with them.  Read a children's book about history with them.  Do fun at-home science projects (google, I suspect "candy science" would bring up a lot of listings on cool stuff you can do with candy and science).  30 minutes, once a week.  If my earlier suggestion of 2 hours may have been too much, start with that.

And don't tell yourself you will do it until you stop, or that you know it won't last long.  That's giving yourself permission to quit and to fail yourself and your family.  By announcing it to your kids, you will have some accountability.  And any time you are tempted to just stay on your computer, remind yourself of how much you love your kids and how much you want and need to be better for them.