How do I convince my wife that that we can FIRE (or work less)?

[FinancialIndependanceNow]

New here to MMM.   Long time lurker to the forum.

My wife and I have worked hard and saved all of our lives and been fortunate to have had some great investments along the way.  We're late 40s and have accumulated nearly $3.5m of net worth (including house with no mortgage).   We spend more than the typical MMM follower ($90k/yr?) and can certainly reduce that if needed.

We both are both working professionals bringing in north of $150k/yr.   Kids our out of college (or at nearly out and pre-funded).

I'm ready to "shift gears" into something less stressful, but she's not there yet (likely in for 5 more years).  Also, we are both concerned about healthcare costs should we decide to get out of the "rat race" entirely.   I think we are both in agreement that we can change things up in 5 years (retire/semi-retire), but I'd like to convince her that we should do to do it sooner!

Any advice?

[GnomeErcy]

Is she not there yet because she enjoys what she's doing, or because she's worried about the money, or something else?

If she enjoys what she's doing and just genuinely doesn't want to quit, is there anything stopping you from pulling back a bit and doing something part-time for a little while?

[FinancialIndependanceNow]

I'm not sure if she actually enjoys it, but probably much more than I like my job.

But mostly I don't think it would go well if she was working full time and I chose to not work full time...  So we will need to coordinate the retirement plans.

I often wonder how couples deal with it when both have been in the workforce for a long time and then one retires while the other still works.

[Bird In Hand]

I'm not sure if she actually enjoys it, but probably much more than I like my job.

But mostly I don't think it would go well if she was working full time and I chose to not work full time...  So we will need to coordinate the retirement plans.

I often wonder how couples deal with it when both have been in the workforce for a long time and then one retires while the other still works.

I'm not so sure this is really that uncommon.

What do you think wouldn't work well if you downshifted (or simply retired) while your wife continued working?  I've heard anecdotally that the working spouse sometimes resents the non-working spouse, or the non-working spouse is bored being alone all day.  The former problem is probably more challenging to deal with than the latter.

[Retire-Canada]

Any advice?

Assuming $90K/yr spend + $30K taxes and a $3.5M porftolio you are a sub-3.5% withdrawal rate. Historically that has never failed so unless you love working you are just wasting time at your jobs.

First off there is nothing else as precious in life as time. You'll never get more and you may not have much left. Since you don't need more money and you don't want to keep working I would tell your wife you are ready to stop. If she wants to keep working that's fine, but you don't have to. If she demands you keep working because she's working I would have a bunch of heart to heart conversations about that to understand why she feels that way.

Ultimately you have nothing to lose by talking about it and everything to gain.

[soccerluvof4]

Any advice?

Assuming $90K/yr spend + $30K taxes and a $3.5M porftolio you are a sub-3.5% withdrawal rate. Historically that has never failed so unless you love working you are just wasting time at your jobs.

First off there is nothing else as precious in life as time. You'll never get more and you may not have much left. Since you don't need more money and you don't want to keep working I would tell your wife you are ready to stop. If she wants to keep working that's fine, but you don't have to. If she demands you keep working because she's working I would have a bunch of heart to heart conversations about that to understand why she feels that way.

Ultimately you have nothing to lose by talking about it and everything to gain.

^+2.  My DW did go back to work however because she was able to find something extremely flexible with great benefits.  I felt guilty for awhile but after taking on all the cooking and stuff she feels like royalty. Heck she worked for me 16 years after meeting me. If you have a good marriage those things don't matter. If she is working just out of fear then show her RC #'s otherwise if she wants to because she likes it then so be it but have a drop dead date agreed on.

[MrsPete]

Convince her with numbers.  A person smart enough to amass savings like that will respond to facts and figures. 

[CheapScholar]

I agree with Retire-Canada.  You've put in your time and if you want to retire you can easily do it.  If your wife wants to work a few more years and subsidize your healthcare then more power to her.  If you want to spend most of your time with your wife then obviously this doesn't work.  At any rate, I'd take a "gap year" if I were you and not work.  Take up a fun part time gig, volunteer, or find a hobby.  3.5m net worth.  FFS.

[sol]

Convince her with numbers.  A person smart enough to amass savings like that will respond to facts and figures.

My wife is a scientist, but still lets fear overcome her understanding of the math.  Yesterday she asked me "what if the market drops 50% right after we retire and then doesn't ever go back up again, would we still have enough money?"

Never mind that this has literally never happened.  She wants to see a monthly spending plan that lasts forever if we lose half on day one and then hold cash forever.  I tried to tell her we could just start out holding cash and avoid the potential 50% drop, and still be fine.  I'm seriously considering buying a multi-million dollar annuity, because I don't see any other way she will ever retire.

Fear is a powerful motivator, even for people who are good at math.

[FinancialIndependanceNow]

Thank you for the replies. 

Good information, I think there is also a disparity between our two perspectives on living on less.  She feels that she has earned a certain lifestyle, which she/we certainly have, but that does not mean we can't live on a lot less.  If we live on a lot less, it's a no brainer that we can retire.

It's always good to get opinions/advice from others with entirely different perspective.

Cheers!

[Retire-Canada]

Good information, I think there is also a disparity between our two perspectives on living on less.  She feels that she has earned a certain lifestyle, which she/we certainly have, but that does not mean we can't live on a lot less.  If we live on a lot less, it's a no brainer that we can retire.

Based on the numbers you posted you can live your current lifestyle and retire right now. She doesn't have to choose.

[soccerluvof4]

Good information, I think there is also a disparity between our two perspectives on living on less.  She feels that she has earned a certain lifestyle, which she/we certainly have, but that does not mean we can't live on a lot less.  If we live on a lot less, it's a no brainer that we can retire.

Based on the numbers you posted you can live your current lifestyle and retire right now. She doesn't have to choose.

Thank you for the replies. 

Good information, I think there is also a disparity between our two perspectives on living on less.  She feels that she has earned a certain lifestyle, which she/we certainly have, but that does not mean we can't live on a lot less.  If we live on a lot less, it's a no brainer that we can retire.

It's always good to get opinions/advice from others with entirely different perspective.

Cheers!

Yes , I guess based on the numbers you gave and the amount you need to spend did something change or does she want to spend more? because based on the numbers you provided as RC said this isn't even an issue.

[PhilB]

Good information, I think there is also a disparity between our two perspectives on living on less.  She feels that she has earned a certain lifestyle, which she/we certainly have, but that does not mean we can't live on a lot less.  If we live on a lot less, it's a no brainer that we can retire.

Based on the numbers you posted you can live your current lifestyle and retire right now. She doesn't have to choose.

That rather depends on how much of the $3.5M is taken up by the house...

[Noodle]

It sounds like the first thing to do is to figure out exactly that post-retirement budget would look like. It doesn't seem clear here how much your lifestyle would have to change after retirement.

1. If it doesn't need to change much, then this is a "how do I get my wife to feel confident in the numbers?" question which might be more about time and patience (and in the meantime, you could look at downshifting yourself, since money isn't a factor.)

2. If it does need to change, then a good place to start would be by you taking on the work engendered. (Ie, get rid of the lawn service and YOU mow the lawn, research the hip inexpensive restaurant for date night, revisit the insurance coverage, etc.) Sometimes a spouse who doesn't want to change the lifestyle is about what they want to be able to buy, but sometimes they honestly would rather earn money in a comfortable office to pay for cleaners rather than scrub their own toilets...especially if they have already put in the "toilet scrubbing" time earlier in life.

[the_fixer]

I would also say it depends on the amount wrapped up in the house and if they are willing to relocate.


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[Nick_Miller]

Wow, $90K/yearly spend is a LOT considering no mortage, no childcare costs, assuming both of you have employer-based health insurance, and you say you've already funded college for the kiddos?

Guessing high property taxes on a largish house are a small part of it?

Any debts? Any car payments or things like that?

I ask mostly because I'm curious about the "lifestyle" comment re: your wife, and what exactly you two would be getting in exchange for giving up more of your most precious resource: time.

What would 3 or 5 more years of work "buy" you in exchange for giving up those good, healthy years of no work, lots of travel (I'm guessing), and time/energy to pursue things that matter most to you?

You two have an opportunity VERY few people have; to enjoy decades of carefree retirement while you are healthy and still pretty young, allowing for a (by pretty much anyone's standards) lavish lifestyle the whole time. I would FIRE today but I understand you are worried about marital dynamics, and I get that. But damn I'd be trying to work on her hard and heavy.

[RedmondStash]

To me, the real question is: What does she want to do? In other words, how does she want to spend her time?

If she wants to retire, then sitting and going over numbers would be helpful. But she may want to keep working. Work isn't an evil to be escaped from as soon as possible for everyone.

I agree with commenters who say you can present your mathematical case to her and tell her what you would like to do. And you can tell her what you'd like her to do, and ask her what she'd like you to do. But you don't both have to retire at the same time.

Another thought is that early retirement can involve a fairly massive shifting of belief systems, and that can take some time, just like continents moving. Maybe she needs more time to process the idea of a dramatic change in plans. What people want can evolve over time.

I'd recommend talking to her, telling her what you want, and then asking what she wants and really listening. Make your case, but don't push. Whether her reasons are logical or emotional, you want her to be happy, and she'll be happiest figuring out for herself what is best for her.

One other suggestion is to plan a big vacation somewhere, so you can both relax and get out of work mode. If she really enjoys it, she might start rethinking how much longer she wants to keep working.

Regardless of all that, congratulations on being at least FI! You sound like you & your family will be comfortable for the rest of your lives, and that's a wonderful thing. You won the race.

[bluebelle]

you put a question mark after your 90K number, does that mean it's an estimate or a guess?   Do you have solid numbers to back up what your spending is and what you expect it to be if you retired (there's alot more time to do 'stuff', some costs will go up).  My hubby is really on board with retiring early, he just has some wild ass numbers as to what he thought our expense would be.  When I can show him 3 years of 'this is what we spent', and then added a buffer of $15K for travel (easy to drop if the markets are off), and ran numbers that showed we were 'good', he was all set (albeit our target is still 28 months away).

Have you shown her the numbers?  Are they concrete?  Do you have a vision for what retirement looks like?

[ysette9]

Lots of good ideas here. On the numbers side, I had success getting my mother to flip the mental switch from “oh my god we will never be able to retire we need All The Money” to “hmmm, this looks doable” by showing her cFIREsim. If you aren’t familiar with this simulator yet, it allows you to model your specific situation and see how your portfolio would have done if you had retired at any point over the past 120 years or so. Meaning, you can model how you would do if you had to face the Great Depression, stagnation, and any other financial mess that has happened over the past century+. You can get success rates and model different spend plans, to see what increased travel or decreased spending or future years in an assisted care facility might do to your nest egg.

Personally I am shooting for something around a 85% succès rate, but that is something you will have to talk with your wife to get comfortable for your own situation. 100% success means that there is zero chance of portfolio failure provided the future is no worse than The Very Worse the past has ever thrown at us.

[Jules13]

Late 40s is still super early to consider retirement for a lot of people.  It seems to me that this is more about you than her.  If she wants to continue with her current job, the conversation needs to be less about her accepting the numbers, but rather if she is okay if you retire/shift gears/do something else, while she continues to work full time.  But, it sounds like she is happy the way things are for now for herself. 

My neighbor has retired but his wife still works.  He spends time on "honey do" scroll (he said it grew from a list to a scroll when he retired) around the house and their travel has picked up a bit. 

Good luck!

[Laura33]

Talk.  Talk talk talk talk.  I am hearing a lot of "I guess" and "I think."  That tells me that you guys haven't yet talked to the point where you understand each other -- you may have talked a lot, but it is the "talking past each other" version, where you are both so intent on making your points that you are not really listening to the other.  So I could tell you to fix the problem with a lot of suggestions, but I don't know which one to make without knowing the real driver.  Is it because she doesn't think you have enough?  Numbers will fix that; do a detailed budget, compared to a detail of your current spending, and walk her through it.  Is it because she is scared you won't have enough?*  Then you need to understand what that fear is coming from and help her deal with it -- not by shoving your thoughts down her throat, but by showing empathy and reassuring her that her happiness and security is as important as your own, asking what she needs to feel safe, and finding a way to get her what she needs.  Is it because her definition of "enough" is much higher than yours?  Well, guess what:  you're not "right" on this, and she's not "wrong."  Read the "50 ways to convert your SO" sticky and see how you can show her that she doesn't need as much as she thinks she needs.  But in the end, you are going to need to find a way to compromise with her on this** -- because, again, her happiness has to be as important to you as your own, and vice-versa.  And simply telling her that you want to RE and you think you need to cut your budget to do so isn't going to persuade her that you care about her happines and so she should meet you halfway.

It sounds to me like you're the one who has recently changed your thinking on this, right?  Because you don't like your job?  So she is basically trundling down the path that you guys laid down however many years ago, and now you are telling her to jump off onto this completely different path, and she's disconcerted and needs time to understand what is involved with that path and what the risks are and what the upside is of taking those risks.  If retirement has always been some future goal, she may need a much clearer vision of what it would mean now, on a day-to-day basis.  My general recommendation for that is a bottle of wine and a relaxed evening on the patio (in good weather) or in front of the fireplace, dreaming about what you guys want to do, building that vision that you're working for.  She has to feel like what she is running toward is much more compelling than what she has now -- so much so that it is worth dealing with her fears and cutting her budget to get there.

*Note that that is, in fact, a completely different cause than the first one.  Logic and math can never fix fear.

**Ask me how I know.  Except in my house, I'm the one in your position.

[FinancialIndependanceNow]

Again,
Lots of good info.

$90k of annual spend is an estimate, partly because we have had some years of irregular expenses and also b/c health insurance and home maintenance are unknowns.

Someone asked how much the home is worth in the Net Worth calc.  It's a little over $700k.   Also, RE taxes are aprox $6k.

You have all made some great observations.  One is that I'd like to be done.  My wife generally likes her job and might have some of her identity tied to her job and an obligation to her company.

My plan is document expenses and come up with a good number so that I have a clear picture of our spending.  Then we can have a good discussion about how well we are situated for retirement either sooner, or later if we so choose.

Healthcare is a big unknown when thinking about not having employer group healthcare.  What are the FIRE people doing about this?

Thanks again!!

[RedmondStash]

Healthcare is a big unknown when thinking about not having employer group healthcare.  What are the FIRE people doing about this?

Panicking. Also considering sacrificing chickens in the hopes of a good omen.

I'm on COBRA right now, but I'll have to deal with an individual plan eventually. Spouse & I have done that before with no problem, but that was years ago, and premiums have skyrocketed since then. I am trepidatious.

[MandalayVA]

Healthcare is a big unknown when thinking about not having employer group healthcare.  What are the FIRE people doing about this?

I was laid off from my corporate job last June and my husband decided to retire at the same time.  We worked for the same company so we got COBRA, which was hugely expensive.  We now live in Florida and went through the marketplace and AARP, and we have medical, dental and vision for about $400/month for both of us.  I'm 51 and my husband is 62, so in a few years he'll be eligible for Medicare.  We could have gone lower, but I really don't want to cheap out that much on health insurance, even though both of us are in reasonably good health.

[spokey doke]

Convince her with numbers.  A person smart enough to amass savings like that will respond to facts and figures.

My wife is a scientist, but still lets fear overcome her understanding of the math.  Yesterday she asked me "what if the market drops 50% right after we retire and then doesn't ever go back up again, would we still have enough money?"

Never mind that this has literally never happened.  She wants to see a monthly spending plan that lasts forever if we lose half on day one and then hold cash forever.  I tried to tell her we could just start out holding cash and avoid the potential 50% drop, and still be fine.  I'm seriously considering buying a multi-million dollar annuity, because I don't see any other way she will ever retire.

Fear is a powerful motivator, even for people who are good at math.

This is a big part of what I'm facing...but it is also (always) more complex, as a bunch of other things get stirred into the fear stew...most notably health care. 

And then there are issues regarding deep seated value judgments about whether you are doing something worthwhile and making a contribution to the community/society, or being lazy (or whatever else)...and even if you don't care so much about such issues, other family members and friends do (read: deadbeat husband)...and even if you THINK you don't care about the judgments of others, it can still color your response to the question about RE...and on and on...

The math seems to be the easy part...

[Retire-Canada]

I'll be FIREd for 6-8yrs before my GF/SO can retire. She's not super stoked about that, but I'm not spending that many extra years at a desk just to make her feel less bad about her situation. On the plus side she's on board with the math, but she made some poor choices with her ex-husband around real estate and she has a sweet pension coming to if she keeps going a the extra time. So we are on slightly different schedules.

That said of the couples I know that are around traditional retirement age it seems like in most cases one partner stops working first....often due to health issues and the other keeps going for a while. So I'm not sure how common simultaneous retirement is and if it needs even be a goal. It seems like that is likely to either force one to work extra or force the other to stop sooner than they want to.

Once one partner FIREs they can support the other one who is working in terms of taking care of more household tasks, which should make the working partner's life easier.

[the_fixer]

Sounds like you have enough money.

What about finding a job doing something you like as a hobby job, volunteering or working part time as a transition?

Maybe if she sees you having the flexibility or joy from doing something that you enjoy she will start to see the light?

My wife has a bunch of her personal self worth tied up in her career and she was dead set against early retirement until I planted the seed about what job would she do if money were no object and then she started to think of all of the things she always wanted to do but never could due to money concern's.

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