Author Topic: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?  (Read 37262 times)

Philociraptor

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2015, 07:58:10 AM »


They don't.

Is the reason for that pragmatic or philosophical?

Earlier in the thread, PabloSuave said he would never donate, so I assume his reason is philosophical.  He is against donating on principle.

What about you?  Are you not doing donations because they would delay your journey to FIRE? Or would you not do them even if you were already past FIRE and enjoying a substantial income surplus?
Both? You ask why not, I ask why. I've heard a lot of why's, not convinced yet.

Hell, just think of something that matters to you.  Pet rescue, land preservation, property rights protection, whatever.  Then ask yourself just how much you can do by yourself to make a difference.  Then think of how much more effective and efficient it is if you and a whole bunch of other people with your same values pool their resources (i.e. money) and hire some knowledgeable people to tackle your issue.  That's what donations are all about, bro.  That's why lots of us donate.  To make things happen we could otherwise not have a chance in hell of moving forward on our own.

Capisch?!

I guess I don't really care about anything? That sounds terrible, but I don't dwell on many things outside of my everyday life. If I don't directly observe it, it doesn't often have a place in my mind.

QuirkyNurse

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2015, 09:20:51 AM »
I give 10% off my net to the church, and plan to bump it back up to 10% of my gross after my loans are completely paid off. I find that immediately moving 10% right off the top of my check makes moving another 10% to investments or 20% to my loans a lot easier - it sets the precedent, and I have more than enough to cover all of my other expenses. In my mind, it's money that isn't mine.

I've donated my time to the food bank at my church, but with my schedule, it isn't always feasible.

mak1277

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2015, 09:31:27 AM »


They don't.

Is the reason for that pragmatic or philosophical?

Earlier in the thread, PabloSuave said he would never donate, so I assume his reason is philosophical.  He is against donating on principle.

What about you?  Are you not doing donations because they would delay your journey to FIRE? Or would you not do them even if you were already past FIRE and enjoying a substantial income surplus?
Both? You ask why not, I ask why. I've heard a lot of why's, not convinced yet.

Hell, just think of something that matters to you.  Pet rescue, land preservation, property rights protection, whatever.  Then ask yourself just how much you can do by yourself to make a difference.  Then think of how much more effective and efficient it is if you and a whole bunch of other people with your same values pool their resources (i.e. money) and hire some knowledgeable people to tackle your issue.  That's what donations are all about, bro.  That's why lots of us donate.  To make things happen we could otherwise not have a chance in hell of moving forward on our own.

Capisch?!

I guess I don't really care about anything? That sounds terrible, but I don't dwell on many things outside of my everyday life. If I don't directly observe it, it doesn't often have a place in my mind.

What do you do in your everyday life?  Is there nothing that you're observing that could be served better or protected through charity?

Example - My main hobby is hiking/backpacking, so conservation/land protection is important to me and I have donated to conservation groups in the past.

Philociraptor

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2015, 10:42:48 AM »




They don't.

Is the reason for that pragmatic or philosophical?

Earlier in the thread, PabloSuave said he would never donate, so I assume his reason is philosophical.  He is against donating on principle.

What about you?  Are you not doing donations because they would delay your journey to FIRE? Or would you not do them even if you were already past FIRE and enjoying a substantial income surplus?
Both? You ask why not, I ask why. I've heard a lot of why's, not convinced yet.

Hell, just think of something that matters to you.  Pet rescue, land preservation, property rights protection, whatever.  Then ask yourself just how much you can do by yourself to make a difference.  Then think of how much more effective and efficient it is if you and a whole bunch of other people with your same values pool their resources (i.e. money) and hire some knowledgeable people to tackle your issue.  That's what donations are all about, bro.  That's why lots of us donate.  To make things happen we could otherwise not have a chance in hell of moving forward on our own.

Capisch?!

I guess I don't really care about anything? That sounds terrible, but I don't dwell on many things outside of my everyday life. If I don't directly observe it, it doesn't often have a place in my mind.

What do you do in your everyday life?  Is there nothing that you're observing that could be served better or protected through charity?

Example - My main hobby is hiking/backpacking, so conservation/land protection is important to me and I have donated to conservation groups in the past.

Weekdays are the same every day: wake up, get ready, work, crossfit, home, dinner, shower, sleep. Weekends are more varied, usually consist of cooking, spending time with wife and our families, watching TV, playing video games, and doing yard/house work. No hobbies really, just getting through the day.

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2015, 11:50:43 AM »
I donate, but not much.  Not as a % of our salaries.

But part of that is safety nets and such.
As someone else pointed out, I pay a LOT of taxes. I consider my taxes to be charity.
I look at friends, and parents of the kids in my school, and people in the neighborhood.

My taxes pay for their section 8 housing, their free lunches, their Medical coverage.
Everything that our taxes pay for - all those safety nets.

But also, I am saving for my kids to go to college, and I'm paying off a house, and I'm trying to have FU money.

So when the YMCA hits me up for money, I donate.  Because I get a lot out of the Y.  But it's like $50.
When friends do a walk or a run for something, I donate.  Again, it's $50.
For the school - the school gets more money, more than $1000.
But I don't give much more than that, because, what about the other parents?  I don't want to judge, but I had a friend who didn't donate a single dime one year because they couldn't afford it, yet they ate out 3x a week and spent $15k on a vacation to Australia.

I also volunteer a ton of time to the school (I'm on the PTA board).

In the past I've made quilts for charity and done breast cancer walks, etc.  I also donate to the food bank.
I don't feel a need to tithe a particular % to charity. But I was raised Catholic, so donating was a thing, but not "tithing a %".  And now I'm an atheist (probably always was, but didn't admit it until 30.)

It's interesting that studies show that people who make less donate more.  I think part of that is need - they have needed help, and understand the need for help.  I understand that.

I also understand though why it can sometimes taper off for the middle class.  Because I increased my work hours last year and fully 62% of my additional earnings were taxed - part of that was just increased taxes and being in a higher bracket (so federal, state, FICA, etc.), and part of that was losing deductions and credits.  The end result is that I took home 38 cents on the dollar.

2lazy2retire

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2015, 07:31:35 AM »
Plus, as discussed in other threads, the push to major charitable giving seems to be a U.S. thing, since countries with higher tax rates and better safety nets means less need (or at least less perception of need) for charitable giving, plus less net income available for giving. 

I find this an interesting comment.  From reading the myriad threads about charitable giving, I don't get the sense that most people (here at least) are giving to people in need in the US.  I feel like people are donating to other things that are important to them (see RtW's abbreviated list a couple posts up for an example).

I think the poster meant that the whole concept of charitable giving is a US thing - at least the larger % discussed as opposed to only giving to US causes.
I have a question for the church people - I see a lot of people donating as much as 10% of their income, what does the church do with all this money - is it used to help the less fortunate?.

AmbitiousCanuck

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2015, 07:40:48 AM »
I don't donate.

As far as I am concerned, my financial security comes first in my finances, and that leaves no room for charitable giving. The way I see it, the quicker I get myself to a point of generating surplus, the more money I would be able to give in my lifetime.

But on a philosophical level, I feel like most charities simply act as a band-aid that mitigates the problem just enough that a real solution can be ignored. For many charitable issues, the real fix needs to come from policy or social changes, not from a fountain of cash.  These charities mean well, but their "solutions" are superficial and poorly thought out. On the other hand, I also see many of the popular awareness campaigns as being extraordinarily wasteful and pointless (like wearing a little pink ribbon. How about you actually teach people about your cause instead of just handing out ribbons?).

There is also the whole money mismanagement issue (big salaries, too much spending on advertising, etc) , but I won't get into that.

mak1277

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2015, 08:11:23 AM »
Plus, as discussed in other threads, the push to major charitable giving seems to be a U.S. thing, since countries with higher tax rates and better safety nets means less need (or at least less perception of need) for charitable giving, plus less net income available for giving. 

I find this an interesting comment.  From reading the myriad threads about charitable giving, I don't get the sense that most people (here at least) are giving to people in need in the US.  I feel like people are donating to other things that are important to them (see RtW's abbreviated list a couple posts up for an example).

I think the poster meant that the whole concept of charitable giving is a US thing - at least the larger % discussed as opposed to only giving to US causes.
I have a question for the church people - I see a lot of people donating as much as 10% of their income, what does the church do with all this money - is it used to help the less fortunate?.

The church does a lot of things with this money.

- pays the pastor and any other staff
- pays for the church building (mortgage, if applicable, as well as utilities, maintenance, etc.)
- Church programs (vacation bible school, benevolence towards members and/or local community outreach)
- supporting missionaries

The fact of the matter is, the church serves its members, in addition to the community at large.  I think a lot of people say "well your 'charity' only goes to keeping the church running, and that's not valuable"...but it is VERY valuable to the members of the church.  The community outreach and missionary support is icing on the cake.

Polaria

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2015, 08:29:23 AM »
I am giving blood, which does not cost or earn me anything.

I give food and toiletries to local food banks and churches.

You can get a lot of food/toiletries for a small amount of ££ if you plan your shopping carefully. Even a budget of £5 per week can go a long way.

HawkeyeNFO

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LOWER YOUR TAX BRACKET!!!!!!
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2015, 09:01:21 AM »
If you're just slightly above the threshold for your tax bracket, you can use charitable donations to lower your taxable income into the lower tax bracket.  For me, I hover near the upper edge of the 15% tax bracket, and if you're in the 15% tax bracket or below, then your capital gains tax rate is ZERO. 

This is especially a good deal for many who have or plan to retire early and live off of a stash of equities.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 09:02:58 AM by HawkeyeNFO »

Imustacheyouaquestion

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2015, 09:07:42 AM »
I make small donations when friends ask for help with specific projects (mission trips, projects for nonprofits they work with, etc.)

I plan to volunteer substantial amounts of my time when I am retired.

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #61 on: April 23, 2015, 09:17:21 AM »
... I have a question for the church people - I see a lot of people donating as much as 10% of their income, what does the church do with all this money - is it used to help the less fortunate?.

Criminy, I never thought of myself as "church people."  But, anyway, the church I attend has the following "missions" that they fund with donations:
-- stop malaria campaign (worldwide)
-- local food bank
-- local meals on wheels
-- monthly free community dinner for needy folks
-- emergency assistance fund
-- day care center subsidizing
-- monthly family night
-- education scholarships
-- kid events like (most recently) church lawn Easter egg hunt
-- and on and on

2lazy2retire

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #62 on: April 23, 2015, 09:51:29 AM »
... I have a question for the church people - I see a lot of people donating as much as 10% of their income, what does the church do with all this money - is it used to help the less fortunate?.

Criminy, I never thought of myself as "church people."  But, anyway, the church I attend has the following "missions" that they fund with donations:
-- stop malaria campaign (worldwide)
-- local food bank
-- local meals on wheels
-- monthly free community dinner for needy folks
-- emergency assistance fund
-- day care center subsidizing
-- monthly family night
-- education scholarships
-- kid events like (most recently) church lawn Easter egg hunt
-- and on and on

fair enough - just wondering. Bit wary when I hear about guys like this -

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/joel.osteen.denies.being.a.prosperity.preacher/37832.htm

mathlete

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2015, 10:03:47 AM »
I have regular monthly donations I make to a couple of charities I like and I bump up contributions around holiday time. I'm also usually good for 50 bucks here and there whenever people ask me to donate to something.

I am extraordinarily lucky that I was born in a time/place that allows me to make as much money as I do off of the skills I was born good at. I feel obligated to pay that forward.

At the same time though, I know that no matter how much I donate, I could and should always cut a luxury and donate more. I've just kind of come to terms with the fact that I'm human and selfish and I don't sacrifice as much as I could.

So I don't have a hard limit or anything, just more of a general mindset.

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2015, 05:48:24 PM »
We have a few places that we make a point to give to, but first and foremost we take care of ourselves first. We cannot help others if we do not help ourselves first, in our thinking...

So, I make sure to get things on sale and donate them to the local food banks, and volunteer time at the local children's hospital and local old folks homes etc, and a few times a year we donate food/time/money to the local PAWS.  PAWS has been good to us, and we have gotten several cats that have been amazingly wonderful from them. So, we try to pay them back by going in when we can and socializing the animals, and we also volunteer at the wildlife refuge.

I was brought up to give to others, and help when you can because it is compassion and kindness...and that makes you a better person in the long run. For instance, on our birthdays, my mom always had us pick out a gift for someone needy that we could donate to...many times it was the local low income daycare that we would gift books, or paint, or other things they could use. Other times it was making sandwiches, and getting blankets and then giving them to someone who was on the street cold and hungry. My mom would always say that you do good and it comes back to you.

All grown up now, I still follow that rule, and my husband is similar. We make sure we are healthy, and financially able..and then we do what we can to make our time here a little brighter, and hopefully help someone else as well. We are not retired and won't be for some time, but when we are, I am sure we will just continue doing what we have been...just a bit more :)

libertarian4321

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #65 on: April 23, 2015, 06:24:47 PM »
When I was young, I gave a lot of time, and little money, because I didn't have a lot of money.

Now that I'm older and have money, it's kind of switched.  I give a little time and a lot more money.

Also, we always give away "stuff."  You know, the kinds of things that can be resold at Goodwill or similar.  I was just preparing a couple of boxes of stuff earlier this afternoon.

We always check with Charity Navigator ( http://www.charitynavigator.org/ ) before donating money or time.

We aren't as picky with the boxes of books, etc- we usually give to whomever happens to have a truck going through our neighborhood to pick stuff up.  The one I'm giving to this week is a children's charity that has decent, but not great ratings, and it's a "Christian" charity, which, as an "evil atheist," I probably shouldn't be donating to :) .

Also, I've made hundreds of loans at Kiva.org (someone mentioned them above)- a site that helps poor people help themselves (which, imho, is a lot better than hand outs).  It's kinda sort of "charity" (you give interest free loans, and sometimes lose your money if it isn't paid back).

okits

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #66 on: April 24, 2015, 01:46:33 AM »
I donate money, time, and blood.

Money donations are both recurring and ad hoc (mostly international aid, local poverty alleviation, animal welfare, health causes.) I try to stick with organizations where I know and believe in the workers and management.  In big, heavily-marketed charities I am concerned about donations being stolen, wasted, or misallocated, so I don't think giving only money is the best thing.

I think volunteering is useful because even with financial donations someone has to do the work, and it's good to be in contact with people less fortunate than yourself.  Also, it adds another social circle to my life, which I enjoy.

Donating blood is a personal sacrifice (I am afraid of needles), of significant benefit (treatments can be life-saving), and saves money in our healthcare system (due to lack of local supply we import plasma, some of which was gathered from paid sources.) 

There's a lot of interesting psychology surrounding giving. I admit that financially, we could give more but I have a fear of not having "enough" (might come from having parents who grew up poor and without social safety nets.  Probably doesn't help to have unstable income.) Some causes I've chosen either due to being personally (or my family) helped in the past (so giving back, literally.) I do believe it enriches your life to help others, though interestingly, I've always felt more satisfied when I gave something other than money.  One could argue that time, skills, and even blood donation could all be readily converted into cash, so perhaps it's the detached nature of simply digging into your wallet that's less satisfying.

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #67 on: April 24, 2015, 03:11:07 AM »
I've been thinking about this a lot lately. We currently give 1% and I feel like that is nowhere near enough. But until we reach FI, it seems somehow reckless to give more.

So I have come up with the following solution to assauge my guilt. Once I reach FI, I plan to work for 3 months and give every penny I earn to a charity of my choice. I'm hoping the work will feel less onerous because I don't have to do it, and that I will feel I have made a decent contribution when I write that big cheque to make up for my years of selfishness.

Yes, I could donate 3 months of time, but honestly, I would likely end up doing something menial for a charity since I have no relevant training. I'm not saying that those basic jobs aren't valuable (they are!), just that I could carry on what I'm doing for 3 months and write a cheque big enough to fund a trained worker for a year or something.

Philociraptor

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #68 on: April 24, 2015, 07:08:21 AM »
interestingly, I've always felt more satisfied when I gave something other than money.  One could argue that time, skills, and even blood donation could all be readily converted into cash, so perhaps it's the detached nature of simply digging into your wallet that's less satisfying.

You're correct, this has to do with how you handle social norms vs. market norms.

RetiredAt63

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #69 on: April 24, 2015, 07:16:10 AM »
To me all the bolded items are not charity, they are the equivalent of belonging to a club.  People could say much the same thing about golf/sailing/curling clubs.  The things you say are icing on the cake are to me the only items of value in terms of charitable activity.  Not that I am happy with most churches' community outreach, in that I find it very presumptuous of any religious group to think that I should switch from my present religious affiliation to theirs.  Do not come knocking on my door.  But I digress.

I agree with AmbitiousCanuck with "But on a philosophical level, I feel like most charities simply act as a band-aid that mitigates the problem just enough that a real solution can be ignored. For many charitable issues, the real fix needs to come from policy or social changes, not from a fountain of cash." For those issues, the truly charitable action would be to work to change/improve the situations. And if anyone wants to talk about the effect of the "Conservatives" on Canadian social policy, we could start a thread over on OFF-TOPIC ( and read Michael Harris's Party of One, it is chilling).

I give my time and money to things that I do not see as being the responsibility of government (any level).  I give blood, I have a therapy dog and we do visits, I work in local groups that improve community life, I give to groups I know whose activities I think are necessary, I give to my Universities (carefully and directed) so that others can have the education I had.

I do not worry about any particular % value, I value my time as much as my money and I mostly give time.



The church does a lot of things with this money.

- pays the pastor and any other staff
- pays for the church building (mortgage, if applicable, as well as utilities, maintenance, etc.)
- Church programs (vacation bible school, benevolence towards members
and/or local community outreach)
- supporting missionaries

The fact of the matter is, the church serves its members, in addition to the community at large.  I think a lot of people say "well your 'charity' only goes to keeping the church running, and that's not valuable"...but it is VERY valuable to the members of the church.  The community outreach and missionary support is icing on the cake.

mak1277

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #70 on: April 24, 2015, 08:18:20 AM »
To me all the bolded items are not charity, they are the equivalent of belonging to a club.  People could say much the same thing about golf/sailing/curling clubs.  The things you say are icing on the cake are to me the only items of value in terms of charitable activity.  Not that I am happy with most churches' community outreach, in that I find it very presumptuous of any religious group to think that I should switch from my present religious affiliation to theirs.  Do not come knocking on my door.  But I digress.

I agree with AmbitiousCanuck with "But on a philosophical level, I feel like most charities simply act as a band-aid that mitigates the problem just enough that a real solution can be ignored. For many charitable issues, the real fix needs to come from policy or social changes, not from a fountain of cash." For those issues, the truly charitable action would be to work to change/improve the situations. And if anyone wants to talk about the effect of the "Conservatives" on Canadian social policy, we could start a thread over on OFF-TOPIC ( and read Michael Harris's Party of One, it is chilling).

I give my time and money to things that I do not see as being the responsibility of government (any level).  I give blood, I have a therapy dog and we do visits, I work in local groups that improve community life, I give to groups I know whose activities I think are necessary, I give to my Universities (carefully and directed) so that others can have the education I had.

I do not worry about any particular % value, I value my time as much as my money and I mostly give time.



The church does a lot of things with this money.

- pays the pastor and any other staff
- pays for the church building (mortgage, if applicable, as well as utilities, maintenance, etc.)
- Church programs (vacation bible school, benevolence towards members
and/or local community outreach)
- supporting missionaries

The fact of the matter is, the church serves its members, in addition to the community at large.  I think a lot of people say "well your 'charity' only goes to keeping the church running, and that's not valuable"...but it is VERY valuable to the members of the church.  The community outreach and missionary support is icing on the cake.

I understand what you're saying about the things you bolded...but someone has to pay for that stuff.  If you told me tomorrow that those things weren't "charity" and were no longer tax deductible that wouldn't change what I give.  The local church's primary purpose is to care for its members.  Just because you think that community outreach is the only valuable service provided doesn't make it so...and doesn't make it the "purpose" of the local church. 

Also, when I say "benevolence towards members", that just means that church members who are having financial difficulties are helped out on an ad hoc basis (definitely charity).

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #71 on: April 24, 2015, 09:10:22 AM »
We've always donated to various causes, mostly conservation/medical relief/arts and education, long before FI.  Just a view point, I guess.  We are also big fans of the donor advised funds; we used to donate shares for our big donations and it was a real pain.  Now, with a few clicks, I can take care of 4 or 5 donations or grants in about 15 minutes.  We have an index fund that feeds the charitable fund; every time it goes up a thousand or so we syphon it off to the charitable.

RetiredAt63

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #72 on: April 24, 2015, 10:53:32 AM »
Sure, but the benefits you list are to the congregation, not to the community as a whole.  Church building and staff, used by the congregation, are = golf/curling/sailing club to me.

Now if you were listing a bunch of local non-religious community uses of the church I could see the community benefit and its validity as a charity.  I know of a church whose halls are used for Beavers and Sparks, yoga classes, new mothers exercise classes, Garden club meetings and shows, and a bunch of other community activities.  Is that the sort of thing you classify as community outreach and icing on the cake?  To me it is community involvement and service, and the validity of a church as a charity.

Retired To Win listed a bunch of church activities ( church "missions" that they fund with donations: stop malaria campaign (worldwide),  local food bank,  local meals on wheels, monthly free community dinner for needy folks, emergency assistance fund, day care center subsidizing, monthly family night, education scholarships, kid events like (most recently) church lawn Easter egg hunt, and on and on ).  Certainly that church is active in the community, especially if all the activities (lie the Easter Egg hunt) are open to non-congregation people.

Helping out members - definitely useful.  But as I said in the original post, countries whose governments have more safety nets (and higher taxes in consequence) tend to use churches less for this aspect of social aid.  Which is probably partly why I, in Canada, do not see most churches doing this much, except those in really disadvantaged areas.  And since I just filed my taxes, I am acutely aware of how much that social net (and OHIP in Ontario) is costing me.


The church does a lot of things with this money.

- pays the pastor and any other staff
- pays for the church building (mortgage, if applicable, as well as utilities, maintenance, etc.)
- Church programs (vacation bible school, benevolence towards members
and/or local community outreach)
- supporting missionaries

The fact of the matter is, the church serves its members, in addition to the community at large.  I think a lot of people say "well your 'charity' only goes to keeping the church running, and that's not valuable"...but it is VERY valuable to the members of the church.  The community outreach and missionary support is icing on the cake.
[/quote]

I understand what you're saying about the things you bolded...but someone has to pay for that stuff.  If you told me tomorrow that those things weren't "charity" and were no longer tax deductible that wouldn't change what I give.  The local church's primary purpose is to care for its members.  Just because you think that community outreach is the only valuable service provided doesn't make it so...and doesn't make it the "purpose" of the local church. 

Also, when I say "benevolence towards members", that just means that church members who are having financial difficulties are helped out on an ad hoc basis (definitely charity).
[/quote]
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 11:04:32 AM by RetiredAt63 »

mak1277

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2015, 11:53:30 AM »
Sure, but the benefits you list are to the congregation, not to the community as a whole.  Church building and staff, used by the congregation, are = golf/curling/sailing club to me.


Honestly, I'm not arguing with you.  I'm saying that service to the "community as a whole" is not, and should not necessarily be, the primary purpose of a local church.  I think it should be one of the purposes, but not at the expense of service to the membership.

If you want to say that my tithes aren't charity because of that, I'm not going to argue or disagree with you.  If you wanted to propose that my tithes shouldn't be tax deductible, I wouldn't tell you that you're being unreasonable.  I also wouldn't stop tithing if that changed.

RetiredAt63

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2015, 12:44:30 PM »
I'm not arguing with you either.  I think we are both clarifying what we mean by charity, and the role of a congregation as a sub-set of that, by bouncing ideas off each other.

I wouldn't expect you to stop tithing if they were not tax deductible.  After all, I am doing all sorts of "time donations" without any tax credit.  I don't see a lot of difference there.  It is interesting that society gives credit for monetary donations but not time donations - I get no financial credit for what I do, only for the money I give.  Basically it just shows what a monetized society we live in.  After all, in feudal times what was owed to the lord (and probably often to the church) was time (work in my fields x number of days/year, serve in my army z number of days/year) and produce (some set amount of farm yield).

I suppose my only concern about tithing, in areas that go in for it, is that it reduces the amount of money available in a budget that might have gone for other equally worth-while endeavors.  What I mean by that is if there is 12% of net income set aside for charity, and 10% of net income goes to a tithe, only 2% is available for other activities.  However, if, of the 10%, the donor decides that 5% is going to charitable activities, and 5% is going to social activities (i.e. they are social needs that could be met by a non-church group if the person was so inclined), then the budget might be 5% to the church for social activities (not a charity category), 5% to the church for charitable activities, and that leaves 7% for other charities.  But since each of us can set our own priorities, and since each church will have its own set of spending priorities, that is an individual choice.

Sure, but the benefits you list are to the congregation, not to the community as a whole.  Church building and staff, used by the congregation, are = golf/curling/sailing club to me.


Honestly, I'm not arguing with you.  I'm saying that service to the "community as a whole" is not, and should not necessarily be, the primary purpose of a local church.  I think it should be one of the purposes, but not at the expense of service to the membership.

If you want to say that my tithes aren't charity because of that, I'm not going to argue or disagree with you.  If you wanted to propose that my tithes shouldn't be tax deductible, I wouldn't tell you that you're being unreasonable.  I also wouldn't stop tithing if that changed.

mak1277

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2015, 12:59:42 PM »
I'm not arguing with you either.  I think we are both clarifying what we mean by charity, and the role of a congregation as a sub-set of that, by bouncing ideas off each other.

I wouldn't expect you to stop tithing if they were not tax deductible.  After all, I am doing all sorts of "time donations" without any tax credit.  I don't see a lot of difference there.  It is interesting that society gives credit for monetary donations but not time donations - I get no financial credit for what I do, only for the money I give.  Basically it just shows what a monetized society we live in.  After all, in feudal times what was owed to the lord (and probably often to the church) was time (work in my fields x number of days/year, serve in my army z number of days/year) and produce (some set amount of farm yield).

I suppose my only concern about tithing, in areas that go in for it, is that it reduces the amount of money available in a budget that might have gone for other equally worth-while endeavors.  What I mean by that is if there is 12% of net income set aside for charity, and 10% of net income goes to a tithe, only 2% is available for other activities.  However, if, of the 10%, the donor decides that 5% is going to charitable activities, and 5% is going to social activities (i.e. they are social needs that could be met by a non-church group if the person was so inclined), then the budget might be 5% to the church for social activities (not a charity category), 5% to the church for charitable activities, and that leaves 7% for other charities.  But since each of us can set our own priorities, and since each church will have its own set of spending priorities, that is an individual choice.

Sure, but the benefits you list are to the congregation, not to the community as a whole.  Church building and staff, used by the congregation, are = golf/curling/sailing club to me.


Honestly, I'm not arguing with you.  I'm saying that service to the "community as a whole" is not, and should not necessarily be, the primary purpose of a local church.  I think it should be one of the purposes, but not at the expense of service to the membership.

If you want to say that my tithes aren't charity because of that, I'm not going to argue or disagree with you.  If you wanted to propose that my tithes shouldn't be tax deductible, I wouldn't tell you that you're being unreasonable.  I also wouldn't stop tithing if that changed.

Now I will disagree (at least for myself personally)...I don't go to church because it's a "social activity", and I can say with certainty that what I get out of church I could not get out of a non-church "club". 

RetiredAt63

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #76 on: April 24, 2015, 01:16:33 PM »
Yes, you have made that clear - that is why I was talking in very general terms.

To get back on topic, some people may do the 10% to the church, some may decide to do 10% but spread it out more, some may say, historically it was 10% to the church and 10% to the lord, and I am paying way over 20% in taxes, so no way am I going to give another 10% on top of that.

So it is very individual.

I'm not arguing with you either.  I think we are both clarifying what we mean by charity, and the role of a congregation as a sub-set of that, by bouncing ideas off each other.

I wouldn't expect you to stop tithing if they were not tax deductible.  After all, I am doing all sorts of "time donations" without any tax credit.  I don't see a lot of difference there.  It is interesting that society gives credit for monetary donations but not time donations - I get no financial credit for what I do, only for the money I give.  Basically it just shows what a monetized society we live in.  After all, in feudal times what was owed to the lord (and probably often to the church) was time (work in my fields x number of days/year, serve in my army z number of days/year) and produce (some set amount of farm yield).

I suppose my only concern about tithing, in areas that go in for it, is that it reduces the amount of money available in a budget that might have gone for other equally worth-while endeavors.  What I mean by that is if there is 12% of net income set aside for charity, and 10% of net income goes to a tithe, only 2% is available for other activities.  However, if, of the 10%, the donor decides that 5% is going to charitable activities, and 5% is going to social activities (i.e. they are social needs that could be met by a non-church group if the person was so inclined), then the budget might be 5% to the church for social activities (not a charity category), 5% to the church for charitable activities, and that leaves 7% for other charities.  But since each of us can set our own priorities, and since each church will have its own set of spending priorities, that is an individual choice.

Sure, but the benefits you list are to the congregation, not to the community as a whole.  Church building and staff, used by the congregation, are = golf/curling/sailing club to me.


Honestly, I'm not arguing with you.  I'm saying that service to the "community as a whole" is not, and should not necessarily be, the primary purpose of a local church.  I think it should be one of the purposes, but not at the expense of service to the membership.

If you want to say that my tithes aren't charity because of that, I'm not going to argue or disagree with you.  If you wanted to propose that my tithes shouldn't be tax deductible, I wouldn't tell you that you're being unreasonable.  I also wouldn't stop tithing if that changed.

Now I will disagree (at least for myself personally)...I don't go to church because it's a "social activity", and I can say with certainty that what I get out of church I could not get out of a non-church "club".

Retired To Win

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #77 on: April 24, 2015, 02:23:51 PM »
...Bit wary when I hear about guys like this -- http://www.christiantoday.com/article/joel.osteen.denies.being.a.prosperity.preacher/37832.htm

Well... not actually.  In the case of Joel Osteen and his church, you've got a case of an outfit that, in my (past) experience, never ever asks for donations.  Their entire operation functions like a book club/dvd club/event performance outfit.  They sell stuff (books, cds, tickets to events).  And you pay for the stuff.  And it's a value exchange, not a donation situation.

Blonde Lawyer

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #78 on: April 24, 2015, 02:27:48 PM »
Retired at 63,

This is probably less relevant on MMM but you can deduct your mileage on your taxes for time spent volunteering.  The rate is less than the business rate but it is still something. 

RetiredAt63

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #79 on: April 25, 2015, 05:07:13 AM »
In Canada?

Nice to know, but most of my volunteering is <10km from home. And I do other errands when I am out.  The only strictly volunteer driving is the dog therapy, because I don't like to leave the dog in the car when I run an errand - it is OK in winter, but as soon as we get above 2C or so, the car can heat up too much.

I have to say, on reflection, that I was not totally correct in saying that society governments do not value the time people volunteer.  OMAFRA collects volunteer hours from the Ontario Horticultural Association, and uses that information in funding considerations.

Retired at 63,

This is probably less relevant on MMM but you can deduct your mileage on your taxes for time spent volunteering.  The rate is less than the business rate but it is still something.

Retired To Win

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #80 on: April 25, 2015, 09:07:44 AM »
I donate money, time, and blood...

I think volunteering is useful because even with financial donations someone has to do the work, and it's good to be in contact with people less fortunate than yourself.  Also, it adds another social circle to my life, which I enjoy.

Donating blood is a personal sacrifice (I am afraid of needles), of significant benefit (treatments can be life-saving), and saves money in our healthcare system...

My wife bats a trifecta where blood drives are concerned.  She organizes them on a volunteer basis for the church (aha!!), gives blood herself, and pays out of her own pocket for the promotional flyers and snacks.  (Last month, she even got me to walk up and down the sidewalk in front of the church with a BIG sign on a pole while the drive was in progress.)

southern granny

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #81 on: April 25, 2015, 09:40:09 AM »
Plus, as discussed in other threads, the push to major charitable giving seems to be a U.S. thing, since countries with higher tax rates and better safety nets means less need (or at least less perception of need) for charitable giving, plus less net income available for giving. 

I find this an interesting comment.  From reading the myriad threads about charitable giving, I don't get the sense that most people (here at least) are giving to people in need in the US.  I feel like people are donating to other things that are important to them (see RtW's abbreviated list a couple posts up for an example).

Just one of the ministries that my church does is a Monday night soup kitchen.  It is not restricted to the homeless and is open to anyone who is having a hard time making ends meet.  No religion is forced on anyone.  There is a 10 minute devotion each night, but anyone who doesn't want to hear it can just come later.  Last week we fed about 130 people who came to the church and delivered 60 meals to shut-ins.  All of this is possible because of the food and money donated.  Our church also makes donations to a local homeless shelter, a jail ministry, and several other outside organizations.  This money comes from tithes and donations made by church members.

I think the poster meant that the whole concept of charitable giving is a US thing - at least the larger % discussed as opposed to only giving to US causes.
I have a question for the church people - I see a lot of people donating as much as 10% of their income, what does the church do with all this money - is it used to help the less fortunate?.

Blonde Lawyer

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #82 on: April 27, 2015, 08:33:55 AM »
In Canada?

Nice to know, but most of my volunteering is <10km from home. And I do other errands when I am out.  The only strictly volunteer driving is the dog therapy, because I don't like to leave the dog in the car when I run an errand - it is OK in winter, but as soon as we get above 2C or so, the car can heat up too much.

I have to say, on reflection, that I was not totally correct in saying that society governments do not value the time people volunteer.  OMAFRA collects volunteer hours from the Ontario Horticultural Association, and uses that information in funding considerations.

Retired at 63,

This is probably less relevant on MMM but you can deduct your mileage on your taxes for time spent volunteering.  The rate is less than the business rate but it is still something.

I was talking about the U.S.  Sorry!

2lazy2retire

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #83 on: April 27, 2015, 09:43:59 AM »
...Bit wary when I hear about guys like this -- http://www.christiantoday.com/article/joel.osteen.denies.being.a.prosperity.preacher/37832.htm

Well... not actually.  In the case of Joel Osteen and his church, you've got a case of an outfit that, in my (past) experience, never ever asks for donations.  Their entire operation functions like a book club/dvd club/event performance outfit.  They sell stuff (books, cds, tickets to events).  And you pay for the stuff.  And it's a value exchange, not a donation situation.

No familiar with how these operations work and I bow to your better knowledge on the subject but from the front page of his website it appear that there may be different ways of "asking"

"One time God spoke to my parents to give a $5,000 offering. They always tithed, but this was an offering over and above their tithe"

Tabaxus

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #84 on: April 27, 2015, 03:06:41 PM »
Charitable donations writ large don't fit in to my finances for now and won't until after I am solidly FI at a $50-60k a year withdrawal rate with a paid off house and full undergraduate education set aside from my kid(s) and my godchild, so is almost 10 and so is actually more urgent than some of these other points.  I currently live on about $30k a year without a kid (but with a non-working student spouse). 

I have about $220k saved, though about $85k of that should be cost-effected down because it's in a trad. 401(k). 

Charitable giving won't be happening any time soon.

I will say that the undergrad education and a modest amount (maybe $100k-ish, inflation adjusted, to the extent possible) is all I plan in the way of support/inheritance for children and my godchild. Excess to charity.  My spouse and I are aligned there, so it's quite likely that our corpses will provide a decent amount of charitable support support.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 03:08:21 PM by Tabaxus »

RetiredAt63

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #85 on: April 28, 2015, 09:04:15 AM »
Not a problem  ;-)

Canada has different tax rules re charitable giving; we can't write off a donation to something by estimating a value (i.e. used clothes).  We have to have that tax receipt.  At least OMAFRA cares about our volunteer hours and uses that information for funding planning.

Finances are different enough by country (and here by province) that I always try to figure out where someone is when they are writing about money - a lot of what I read here is only of theoretical use.  RRSPs and CPP and OAS and TFSAs are different from IRAs and Roths and SS.

In Canada?

I was talking about the U.S.  Sorry!

NICE!

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #86 on: April 29, 2015, 04:40:48 AM »
Charitable donations writ large don't fit in to my finances for now and won't until after I am solidly FI at a $50-60k a year withdrawal rate with a paid off house and full undergraduate education set aside from my kid(s) and my godchild, so is almost 10 and so is actually more urgent than some of these other points.  I currently live on about $30k a year without a kid (but with a non-working student spouse). 

I have about $220k saved, though about $85k of that should be cost-effected down because it's in a trad. 401(k). 

Word, but all of those requirements make it sound like the real answer is never because you need $1.5m, a house ($300,000ish?), and multiple undergrad tuitions (say, another $100k+)...So let's call it a cool $2m. That sounds a lot like never.

If the answer is really never, say never. Own it.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 04:43:24 AM by NICE! »

Tabaxus

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #87 on: April 29, 2015, 07:25:29 AM »
Charitable donations writ large don't fit in to my finances for now and won't until after I am solidly FI at a $50-60k a year withdrawal rate with a paid off house and full undergraduate education set aside from my kid(s) and my godchild, so is almost 10 and so is actually more urgent than some of these other points.  I currently live on about $30k a year without a kid (but with a non-working student spouse). 

I have about $220k saved, though about $85k of that should be cost-effected down because it's in a trad. 401(k). 

Word, but all of those requirements make it sound like the real answer is never because you need $1.5m, a house ($300,000ish?), and multiple undergrad tuitions (say, another $100k+)...So let's call it a cool $2m. That sounds a lot like never.

If the answer is really never, say never. Own it.

$2 mil is probably too low. $300k isn't enough for a 2-bedroom condo/apartment (and certainly not an actual house with a yard) where I live (and getting it to be less would mean a driving commute) and $100k probably isn't enough for tuition given tuition inflation--even in-state tuition, which is all I'm going to be willing to pay for, can run $30k+ a year these days depending on the school.

That said, if I maintain my current level of income, I'll be there within 10 years unless the market tanks and doesn't recover.  However, maintaining current level of income won't happen: it will either steadily increase on a lockstep basis (and jump up in about 6 years) or go down dramatically.   

If the income goes down--which is quite possible, I'm very much in an "up-or-out" kind of scenario--yes, it's probably never (except potentially on death when the paid off house gets sold). I don't have a problem with that, because family comes first in my mind.  We also haven't made up our mind on kid(s) yet, so tuition could just be godchild (and no kid(s) obviously is a boon in the housing cost and other savings rate areas).  Plus, we haven't told my godchild's parents that we intend to have tuition set aside for the godchild, and we won't fund that tuition if funding is available from another source other than loans, so there's a possibility that that pot of money ends up not being used.

I may also adjust my SWR down.  As I said, my spouse and I live on around $30-40k a year right now and don't feel deprived (and there is some, but not a lot, of fat we could probably cut without feeling deprived).  If that happens, the goal is met earlier.

But yeah, I'm firmly in the camp that charity comes after FI, not before, and if that means I never get around to charity, then so be it.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 07:32:17 AM by Tabaxus »

HazelStone

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #88 on: April 29, 2015, 10:25:32 AM »
I am reminded of a quote from one of FDR's advisors in the depths of the Depression:

"People don't eat in the long run. They eat every day." Most of us can well afford to kick in a few dollars here and there. There are lots of people hurting now. Giving $50 to the local food bank, Salvation Army, etc. isn't going to derail one's FI plans by much, but it will help a struggling household get through the last bit of the month.

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #89 on: April 29, 2015, 12:13:21 PM »
I am reminded of a quote from one of FDR's advisors in the depths of the Depression:

"People don't eat in the long run. They eat every day." Most of us can well afford to kick in a few dollars here and there. There are lots of people hurting now. Giving $50 to the local food bank, Salvation Army, etc. isn't going to derail one's FI plans by much, but it will help a struggling household get through the last bit of the month.

I know you mean well, but I feel like you are forgetting what website we are on.  This IS the same website where it is advocated to stop buying coffees in order to retire faster.  Many people here are on the fast-track to retirement, which means cutting out all spending that is not absolutely necessary.  In my opinion, that includes donations.  If someone wants to still donate while trying to fast track their retirement, that is their decision, but it needs to be a calculated decision and not a hand-waving "isn't going to derail one's FI plans by much", because, well, it actually CAN offset ones FI plans by much depending on the particular persons income, expenses, and frequency and amount of donation.

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #90 on: April 29, 2015, 12:19:33 PM »
I am reminded of a quote from one of FDR's advisors in the depths of the Depression:

"People don't eat in the long run. They eat every day." Most of us can well afford to kick in a few dollars here and there. There are lots of people hurting now. Giving $50 to the local food bank, Salvation Army, etc. isn't going to derail one's FI plans by much, but it will help a struggling household get through the last bit of the month.

I know you mean well, but I feel like you are forgetting what website we are on.  This IS the same website where it is advocated to stop buying coffees in order to retire faster.  Many people here are on the fast-track to retirement, which means cutting out all spending that is not absolutely necessary.  In my opinion, that includes donations.  If someone wants to still donate while trying to fast track their retirement, that is their decision, but it needs to be a calculated decision and not a hand-waving "isn't going to derail one's FI plans by much", because, well, it actually CAN offset ones FI plans by much depending on the particular persons income, expenses, and frequency and amount of donation.

Not to mention, there is a strong libertarian bent on here.  So yeah, very few people are going to be motivated by the idea of donating money to causes that help others.

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #91 on: April 29, 2015, 12:20:43 PM »
Charitable donations writ large don't fit in to my finances for now and won't until after I am solidly FI at a $50-60k a year withdrawal rate with a paid off house and full undergraduate education set aside from my kid(s) and my godchild, so is almost 10 and so is actually more urgent than some of these other points.  I currently live on about $30k a year without a kid (but with a non-working student spouse). 

I have about $220k saved, though about $85k of that should be cost-effected down because it's in a trad. 401(k). 

Word, but all of those requirements make it sound like the real answer is never because you need $1.5m, a house ($300,000ish?), and multiple undergrad tuitions (say, another $100k+)...So let's call it a cool $2m. That sounds a lot like never.

If the answer is really never, say never. Own it.

$2 mil is probably too low. $300k isn't enough for a 2-bedroom condo/apartment (and certainly not an actual house with a yard) where I live (and getting it to be less would mean a driving commute) and $100k probably isn't enough for tuition given tuition inflation--even in-state tuition, which is all I'm going to be willing to pay for, can run $30k+ a year these days depending on the school.

That said, if I maintain my current level of income, I'll be there within 10 years unless the market tanks and doesn't recover.  However, maintaining current level of income won't happen: it will either steadily increase on a lockstep basis (and jump up in about 6 years) or go down dramatically.   

If the income goes down--which is quite possible, I'm very much in an "up-or-out" kind of scenario--yes, it's probably never (except potentially on death when the paid off house gets sold). I don't have a problem with that, because family comes first in my mind.  We also haven't made up our mind on kid(s) yet, so tuition could just be godchild (and no kid(s) obviously is a boon in the housing cost and other savings rate areas).  Plus, we haven't told my godchild's parents that we intend to have tuition set aside for the godchild, and we won't fund that tuition if funding is available from another source other than loans, so there's a possibility that that pot of money ends up not being used.

I may also adjust my SWR down.  As I said, my spouse and I live on around $30-40k a year right now and don't feel deprived (and there is some, but not a lot, of fat we could probably cut without feeling deprived).  If that happens, the goal is met earlier.

But yeah, I'm firmly in the camp that charity comes after FI, not before, and if that means I never get around to charity, then so be it.

What if you reduced your entertainment budget by .001% to give to the local food bank? Would that significantly change your life or plans?

TheAnonOne

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #92 on: April 29, 2015, 01:48:47 PM »
Charitable donations writ large don't fit in to my finances for now and won't until after I am solidly FI at a $50-60k a year withdrawal rate with a paid off house and full undergraduate education set aside from my kid(s) and my godchild, so is almost 10 and so is actually more urgent than some of these other points.  I currently live on about $30k a year without a kid (but with a non-working student spouse). 

I have about $220k saved, though about $85k of that should be cost-effected down because it's in a trad. 401(k). 

Word, but all of those requirements make it sound like the real answer is never because you need $1.5m, a house ($300,000ish?), and multiple undergrad tuitions (say, another $100k+)...So let's call it a cool $2m. That sounds a lot like never.

If the answer is really never, say never. Own it.

$2 mil is probably too low. $300k isn't enough for a 2-bedroom condo/apartment (and certainly not an actual house with a yard) where I live (and getting it to be less would mean a driving commute) and $100k probably isn't enough for tuition given tuition inflation--even in-state tuition, which is all I'm going to be willing to pay for, can run $30k+ a year these days depending on the school.

That said, if I maintain my current level of income, I'll be there within 10 years unless the market tanks and doesn't recover.  However, maintaining current level of income won't happen: it will either steadily increase on a lockstep basis (and jump up in about 6 years) or go down dramatically.   

If the income goes down--which is quite possible, I'm very much in an "up-or-out" kind of scenario--yes, it's probably never (except potentially on death when the paid off house gets sold). I don't have a problem with that, because family comes first in my mind.  We also haven't made up our mind on kid(s) yet, so tuition could just be godchild (and no kid(s) obviously is a boon in the housing cost and other savings rate areas).  Plus, we haven't told my godchild's parents that we intend to have tuition set aside for the godchild, and we won't fund that tuition if funding is available from another source other than loans, so there's a possibility that that pot of money ends up not being used.

I may also adjust my SWR down.  As I said, my spouse and I live on around $30-40k a year right now and don't feel deprived (and there is some, but not a lot, of fat we could probably cut without feeling deprived).  If that happens, the goal is met earlier.

But yeah, I'm firmly in the camp that charity comes after FI, not before, and if that means I never get around to charity, then so be it.

What if you reduced your entertainment budget by .001% to give to the local food bank? Would that significantly change your life or plans?

On a $10,000 a year entertainment budget, that is only 10 cents. Why even bother at that point. The charity could/should be insulted that you took the time to let them know they are only worth a pointless amount of money.

Tabaxus

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #93 on: April 29, 2015, 02:14:17 PM »
Charitable donations writ large don't fit in to my finances for now and won't until after I am solidly FI at a $50-60k a year withdrawal rate with a paid off house and full undergraduate education set aside from my kid(s) and my godchild, so is almost 10 and so is actually more urgent than some of these other points.  I currently live on about $30k a year without a kid (but with a non-working student spouse). 

I have about $220k saved, though about $85k of that should be cost-effected down because it's in a trad. 401(k). 

Word, but all of those requirements make it sound like the real answer is never because you need $1.5m, a house ($300,000ish?), and multiple undergrad tuitions (say, another $100k+)...So let's call it a cool $2m. That sounds a lot like never.

If the answer is really never, say never. Own it.

$2 mil is probably too low. $300k isn't enough for a 2-bedroom condo/apartment (and certainly not an actual house with a yard) where I live (and getting it to be less would mean a driving commute) and $100k probably isn't enough for tuition given tuition inflation--even in-state tuition, which is all I'm going to be willing to pay for, can run $30k+ a year these days depending on the school.

That said, if I maintain my current level of income, I'll be there within 10 years unless the market tanks and doesn't recover.  However, maintaining current level of income won't happen: it will either steadily increase on a lockstep basis (and jump up in about 6 years) or go down dramatically.   

If the income goes down--which is quite possible, I'm very much in an "up-or-out" kind of scenario--yes, it's probably never (except potentially on death when the paid off house gets sold). I don't have a problem with that, because family comes first in my mind.  We also haven't made up our mind on kid(s) yet, so tuition could just be godchild (and no kid(s) obviously is a boon in the housing cost and other savings rate areas).  Plus, we haven't told my godchild's parents that we intend to have tuition set aside for the godchild, and we won't fund that tuition if funding is available from another source other than loans, so there's a possibility that that pot of money ends up not being used.

I may also adjust my SWR down.  As I said, my spouse and I live on around $30-40k a year right now and don't feel deprived (and there is some, but not a lot, of fat we could probably cut without feeling deprived).  If that happens, the goal is met earlier.

But yeah, I'm firmly in the camp that charity comes after FI, not before, and if that means I never get around to charity, then so be it.

What if you reduced your entertainment budget by .001% to give to the local food bank? Would that significantly change your life or plans?

I'm not going to get dragged into this kind of hyperbolic question. Yes, I could obviously donate some token amount to charity that would not significantly implicate my FI plans.  Maybe is you somehow do the math, it lengthens FI by an hour.  The next question is, well, what about an amount that lengths FI by a day.  A week.  A month.  A year.  Two years.  Etc.  The tithing that some people do could well add a decade.  Or, you take it from the other angle--cut out a glass of wine a week and give it to charity.  Now a meal a week.  Now thing X.  Now thing X + Y.  So you're not lengthening time to FI, but you are taking away things that, for those of us who have actually thought the issue through, have decided that "having thing X is worth delaying FI by [time]"--not appreciably different than asking for someone to delay FI.

I've made the decision to draw the line at not donating for an amount that lengthens my road to FI by a nanosecond and not cutting out anything that I have deemed to be worth a nanosecond of FI time. That's my decision to make.   As I said, I almost certainly will have a surplus when I die, that will go to charity, and that's enough for me.  And there's a good chance that I have a surplus when I'm alive, and if that occurs, I will donate then.  I feel absolutely no compulsion or obligation to go any further. Your obvious judginess about that decision is what it is, but it certainly isn't going to move me on the subject.

mak1277

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #94 on: April 29, 2015, 02:32:19 PM »
I am reminded of a quote from one of FDR's advisors in the depths of the Depression:

"People don't eat in the long run. They eat every day." Most of us can well afford to kick in a few dollars here and there. There are lots of people hurting now. Giving $50 to the local food bank, Salvation Army, etc. isn't going to derail one's FI plans by much, but it will help a struggling household get through the last bit of the month.

I know you mean well, but I feel like you are forgetting what website we are on.  This IS the same website where it is advocated to stop buying coffees in order to retire faster.  Many people here are on the fast-track to retirement, which means cutting out all spending that is not absolutely necessary.  In my opinion, that includes donations.  If someone wants to still donate while trying to fast track their retirement, that is their decision, but it needs to be a calculated decision and not a hand-waving "isn't going to derail one's FI plans by much", because, well, it actually CAN offset ones FI plans by much depending on the particular persons income, expenses, and frequency and amount of donation.

Not to mention, there is a strong libertarian bent on here.  So yeah, very few people are going to be motivated by the idea of donating money to causes that help others.

Libertarian = selfish asshole?  That's new to me.

And yes, I believe that people who are not in debt and saving upwards of 50% of their take home pay are selfish assholes if they don't donate to charity.  I am a selfish asshole too, but for other reasons that aren't germane to this topic.

Philociraptor

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #95 on: April 29, 2015, 03:30:21 PM »
And yes, I believe that people who are not in debt and saving upwards of 50% of their take home pay are selfish assholes if they don't donate to charity.

Hey, I'm working really hard to become a selfish asshole! It certainly aligns well with my goals (paying down debt and increasing savings rate).

NICE!

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #96 on: April 29, 2015, 04:21:22 PM »
Your obvious judginess about that decision is what it is, but it certainly isn't going to move me on the subject.

I asked an honest question, sans judgement. Don't do what you just did.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 04:23:40 PM by NICE! »

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #97 on: April 29, 2015, 06:50:40 PM »
Ahem...

As the Original Poster, I would just like to say that donating is a choice, not an obligation.  And what causes or purposes one donates to -- if one donates -- is a most personal choice.  Your worthy charity could easily be my useless waste of money.  And vice versa.

So, let's keep it nice.

Thanks.

MMMdude

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #98 on: April 29, 2015, 07:51:16 PM »
I do tax returns on the side and I do a few free each year for my mom's friends who are older and on limited incomes.  One lady consistently donates around $3000 per year on an income of about $22000 (part time work + government pension).  I really admire her for being so generous but at the same time she struggles to get by.  All the donations are religious in nature and some of them quite frankly are those slimy televangelist types but hey it's her $ so whatever.

Megma

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Re: How do charitable donations fit into your finances?
« Reply #99 on: April 29, 2015, 08:21:34 PM »
Personally I donate to charities that benefit my life. I give a small monthly donation to npr because i listen to it everyday, I see it as my subscription fee. I will probably increase it some over time.

I am an animal lover and if I can afford pets I can afford to help the local animal rescue. I mostly give them time and sometimes donate items to their fund raisers. But I choose the animal rescue locally that has no paid staff, all volunteer.

I would rather not buy a box of cookies a month or eat less meat and have a little room for contributing to my community in my budget. My donations are small but still important to me.