Author Topic: How did you figure your fire date?  (Read 9100 times)

KBecks2

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How did you figure your fire date?
« on: April 19, 2015, 04:12:52 PM »
I am curious how you figured your fire dates for the cohorts.  Thanks!  I have been sucking at measurement but I would love to make a clearer forecast. 

Spork

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2015, 05:43:03 PM »
I've been a bit obsessive about it for > 10 years...   We track **everything**.  It all feeds into a home built mash of stuff that graphs it all and runs Firecalc simulations based on actual expenses and nest egg.  I have probably way over saved.  But when firecalc continually reporting 100% success*, I decided we were overdue.

*yes, 100% success with firecalc doesn't mean a sure thing... But it still seems excessive.

KBecks2

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2015, 06:00:59 PM »
OK, I see people making very precise predictions, as in, April 2018, etc.  Clearly they have more of a system in place than I do.  So maybe I can improve my methods.  First, figure a monthly savings contribution that is regular.  Then… tighten expenses, then.. wait?

But how do you determine a date and stick to it?

Off to play with calculators…


sol

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2015, 06:10:11 PM »
Is the firecalc a calculator on this site?

No, see here:  http://firecalc.com/

OK, I see people making very precise predictions, as in, April 2018, etc.

My general year was chosen based on the time when my assets are expected to cover my projected expenses for long enough to last us until our pensions and SS kick in, with an appropriate safety margin.  Figuring this out for yourself is kind of the point of this website.

My exact date was chosen for reasons related to my specific workplace policies about things like health insurance coverage.  Choosing this exact date is something we've devoted entire threads to here on the forum before.  See for example: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/best-day-to-quit/

ascZend

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2015, 06:15:55 PM »
OK, I see people making very precise predictions, as in, April 2018, etc.  Clearly they have more of a system in place than I do.  So maybe I can improve my methods.  First, figure a monthly savings contribution that is regular.  Then… tighten expenses, then.. wait?

But how do you determine a date and stick to it?

Off to play with calculators…

Here's how I tentatively planned my date:

I first used https://networthify.com/ to determine when I could retire based on my current portfolio, estimated annual income, savings and expenses, and my expected returns and withdrawal rate.  This provided me with an estimated value of my net worth when I retire. 

I then input my estimated portfolio value at retirement into the http://www.firecalc.com/ calculator, in addition to my annual expenses and the number of years I plan to be retired.  When their results and models reached a 100% success rate for 50+ years of withdrawals, I felt pretty safe at that point of sticking with the estimated FIRE date.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 06:19:24 PM by ascZend »

Spork

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2015, 06:28:35 PM »
OK, I see people making very precise predictions, as in, April 2018, etc. 

Well, any prediction that is that precise is pretty untrustworthy.  I.e. if it can predict down to a month, a little variance in the market will make it fail.

I have a precise date... but that came when I was comfortable and asked my boss "how long of a notice do you want?"  He said 6 months... so my date was 6 months out from that discussion.

MDM

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2015, 09:00:26 PM »
But how do you determine a date and stick to it?
You can't (stick to it), unless you can guarantee that market returns are equal or better to your assumption between now and the date the calculations determine estimate.

All the various calculators (Networthify, Firecalc, cfiresim.com, etc.) do is provide calculations based on inputs you provide.

See http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/good-article-on-savings-and-fi/ (among others) for similar discussion.

OldPro

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2015, 09:39:00 AM »
No offense intended to anyone but I do get a chuckle when I read about the lengths people go to trying to 'calculate' when their FIRE date will be.

I FIREd 26 years ago.  The term FIRE didn't even exist I don't think.  If it did, I'd certainly not heard of it.  Bear in mind the birth of the World Wide Web was only 26 years ago.  Research meant a library and books.  I did none of that.  I just decided one day that I did not want to work till I was 65, retire and then drop deap on the golf course at age 67.  So I invented if you will, the idea of FIRE for myself.

So I sat down one evening and came up with a 10 year plan to retirement.  Here's how I figured it out.  I figured(I didn't need to 'calculate', I just pulled what I felt was a reasonable number out of the air) that I needed $20k or so of passive income based on a conservative average of around 10-12% ROI (this is back in 1982) per year to start out with.  I believed I could actually live quite happily on as little as $12k a year.  So $20k would allow me plenty of wiggle room and the ability to continue building capital over time.  I was earning around $35k a year and owned my home.  I would need to have $200k capital at 10% to return the $20k income I wanted.  If I wanted to get there in 10 years I needed to save around $20k per year.  That was my entire plan, took about an hour of thinking.

Then I set out to reach the goal of $200k.  It was clear to me that it would be a bit tough on $35k per year income unless I was going to give up things and I had no intention of doing that so it was also clear that I needed to increase my income.  That meant that instead of just 'coasting' in my job and doing an average job I needed to up my game and outperform my peers in order to make more income.  I went from $35k to $100K in 5 years.  At no time did I do without vacations or steak dinners or anything else.  In fact, truth be told, I increased my spending somewhat during those years.  Nevertheless, I spent less than I earned and in fact reached my 10 year goal in 7 years. 

So you could say I pretty much planned it all on the back of an envelope and pretty did everything most people here would tell you not to do.  I'm also pretty sure, any 'retirement calculation program' would show I had no chance of retiring successfully when I did.  The only problem with that is that I retired 26 years ago and am still retired with an income that is now going to be $65k per year (as a couple) when a pension kicks in this summer. 

All calculations are based on assumptions as MDM says.  I call that crystal ball thinking.  A decision to retire which is an emotional decision, comes first.  Then comes 'how much do I need'.  You make a guesstimate.  Yes, that's right, a guesstimate, because unless you have a crystal ball, you have no way of knowing what the future will bring.  Any 'calculator' like 'firecalc' et al are no better at guessing than you are.

So going back to your question, 'how did you figure out your fire date?', the answer is when I guesstimated I had enough.  So far, so good and that is really all anyone can hope for.


AliInKY

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2015, 11:31:48 AM »
All calculations are based on assumptions as MDM says.  I call that crystal ball thinking.  A decision to retire which is an emotional decision, comes first.  Then comes 'how much do I need'. 

Yep, that's it.  I have targeted our FI for 9 years from now, when we'll have the mortgage paid off (in 12 years total vs. 30 years).   

The big wake up call came as a result of experiencing three immediate family deaths in the last four years, two in mine and one in his.  In addition to that we've spent countless hours in hospitals and rehab facilities with my father-in-law over the last couple of years.  I'm 44 and my husband is 51.  We're not old by any stretch, but we're not spring chickens either.  Damn it all, we're tired. 

Our work schedules (opposite shifts), the illnesses and deaths, the resulting stress, and the inevitable aging we are experiencing have made us realize how very precious time is to us.  We just married four years ago and feel like we have to steal our quality time together - and we don't even have children!

It's mission critical for us to have income that will support our doing whatever we want with our time.  It turns out we do not want to spend the majority of our awake time working.  Imagine that.

We want FI badly.  Life is short.  We want to live.  Emotion has been the key to our FI plan coming together quite easily. 

Jon_Snow

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2015, 07:44:04 PM »
I knew I was "good to go" for several years before I finally FIRE'd.

What was the deciding factor? My B.S. bucket was finally overflowing enough that I gave my employer a generous 3 months notice and that was it.

rubybeth

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2015, 08:30:46 AM »
I really have no idea, but I like to imagine it happening by a certain year; I'm certainly willing to adjust based on how the investments do, and there are so many unknowns at this point (DH's future income after grad school being the largest factor, and whether or not we buy a house being another), it would impossible say a specific month, though I like the idea of quitting before my birthday/summer. I have a sticky note with some random-seeming numbers on it on my work calendar that I use as daily motivation:

2026
875
45

2026 - the year I'd like to be done
875 - the minimum stash I'd like to have to feel I could quit full-time work (DH may continue working after me)
45 - the age I'll be that year ;)

Cookie78

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2015, 08:42:34 AM »
I have an exact date, but it's just a goal. I'm very goal driven, and having a 'deadline' keeps me focused and making the right decisions that will help achieve my goal. But I only have control over so many things (ie: not real estate market and not stock market). I'm only 'sticking with it' if everything works out in my favor. If the markets crash, I'll continue to work until I don't have to any more.

As for how I chose the goal, it keeps changing as I get new info. Originally it was May 2020, but the more math and accurate projections* I made, the more I realized I didn't need that much time. The month was chosen because I'd prefer to spend part of the summer, and hunting season with my family before taking off to Phoenix for the winter. Again, clearly it's just a goal, not a hard set rule that I must stick with at all costs. I'll have to make sure at least one of the houses sells before I quit my job and take off anywhere.

*For example, my rough pension estimates were wayyyy lower than the estimates I got when I sat down and did the actual calculations. Ditto for my real estate equity rough guesses (which could also drastically change at any given moment).

MooseOutFront

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2015, 09:14:04 AM »
To figure my approximate date I analyzed my expenses as accurately as possible, estimated a 5% real return on investments, and ran the numbers to see how many years it would take for my investments to grow to 25x my expenses.

I realize that the estimated date, 6.5 years out from when I started this FIRE goal, is too far out to plan around, but I plan to switch to part time work in FIRE anyway, so if my stache is anywhere close to projections then I'll still pull the trigger in summer of 2020 anyway.  Just as originally planned.

dadu007

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2015, 09:58:42 AM »
Along these calculator lines, something puzzles me:

When they ask for "current annual savings", does that include whatever percentage of GROSS for the 401K (before taxes)?
Or is that after taxes?  Or both...? Those are two different things...
Same thing for "current annual saving rate"...does that include the percentage of gross before taxes and then savings rate for net income?
For example, if I lop 15% off the top before taxes for 401K and then save another 10% of my take home pay, what is my savings rate? 
I don't know how to answer that....

TheContinentalOp

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2015, 10:00:32 AM »
I have chosen 4/1/2020 for my FIRE date.

I picked the 1st of the month so that I will get company health insurance through the entire month.

I picked April because upon FIREing I plan to bike across the USA and I wanted nice weather. I plan to take a month to put my affairs in order and leave at the beginning of May.

I picked 2020 figuring at my present rates of expenses and savings. I will have enough to support the lifestyle I have now, plus some extra for error of margin and international travel. If I come up (relatively) short on my expected net worth in 2020, I still plan to FIRE.

Obviously if the market tanks, I lose my job, have health issues or something else unforseen comes up, I will throw it all out the window.

rubybeth

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2015, 11:28:15 AM »
Along these calculator lines, something puzzles me:

When they ask for "current annual savings", does that include whatever percentage of GROSS for the 401K (before taxes)?
Or is that after taxes?  Or both...? Those are two different things...
Same thing for "current annual saving rate"...does that include the percentage of gross before taxes and then savings rate for net income?
For example, if I lop 15% off the top before taxes for 401K and then save another 10% of my take home pay, what is my savings rate? 
I don't know how to answer that....

I think you're making this more complicated than it needs to be. Yes, it's gross income. If your income includes the amount going into your 401k, you include that as income and savings. You also include taxes as income, but you also include them as an expense. Anything saved on top of that is savings, too.

So, for example (very basic round numbers):
50,000 income
18,000 to 401k
4,000 to IRA
3,000 to taxes
25,000 spending

=

spent: 3,000 + 25,000 = 28,000 - 56% of income spent
saved: 18,000 + 4,000 = 22,000 - 44% savings

Does this make sense?

But also realize that your taxes in retirement will only be on your income in retirement (so, in my example above, if you only take out 25,000 for your expenses, your tax burden will likely be quite low and you may pay nothing in taxes, depending on your family size and other deductions).
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 12:21:12 PM by rubybeth »

dadu007

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2015, 11:32:32 AM »
Yes, rubybeth, that does make sense.  Thx!  I do tend to make things overly complicated for myself. ;-)

Eric

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2015, 11:51:48 AM »
I have chosen 4/1/2020 for my FIRE date.

I picked the 1st of the month so that I will get company health insurance through the entire month.

I picked April because upon FIREing I plan to bike across the USA and I wanted nice weather. I plan to take a month to put my affairs in order and leave at the beginning of May.

I picked 2020 figuring at my present rates of expenses and savings. I will have enough to support the lifestyle I have now, plus some extra for error of margin and international travel. If I come up (relatively) short on my expected net worth in 2020, I still plan to FIRE.

Obviously if the market tanks, I lose my job, have health issues or something else unforseen comes up, I will throw it all out the window.

Plus, since that's April Fool's Day, your co-workers won't really know if you are actually quitting.  Best to keep them guessing!

sol

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2015, 12:02:07 PM »
Plus, since that's April Fool's Day, your co-workers won't really know if you are actually quitting.  Best to keep them guessing!

Oh my god, this is the best idea I've seen here this week.  I just moved my target retirement date from March to April solely because of this post.

velocistar237

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2015, 12:03:12 PM »
My approach: came up with a post-retirement annual budget, excluding housing P&I payments, and multiplied by 25. Added the projected remaining debt we will have. Then I set up a savings goal in Mint that targets that amount and tracks my invested assets against it. Mint updates the goal completion date on the fly, so I always know whether I'm ahead or behind. It's been pretty stable.

And now I will adjust my goal to target April 1...

Cougar

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2015, 01:41:23 PM »

imo, you have to nail down your living expenses.

if you're saying 3,000 a month; you better track it for a year before going fire; repairs will pop up in a year that wont in a few months.

if you have that down its just saving until you hit that number for your life expectancy plus a few years just in case.

Megma

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2015, 12:38:19 AM »
My approach: came up with a post-retirement annual budget, excluding housing P&I payments, and multiplied by 25. Added the projected remaining debt we will have. Then I set up a savings goal in Mint that targets that amount and tracks my invested assets against it. Mint updates the goal completion date on the fly, so I always know whether I'm ahead or behind. It's been pretty stable.

And now I will adjust my goal to target April 1...

Finally something to use mint goals for! I always look at that tab and think that I have no desire to save for specific things like vacations, but I can use it for my fire target! 😃 Thanks!

arebelspy

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2015, 04:20:45 PM »
IMO: Networthify.com is best for rough estimates, cFIREsim is best for historical data.

And then you'll probably find your FIRE date either moves in, and in, and in (OLY), or you'll find you hit it and it moves out, and out (OMY).  You probably won't be right at that date (some are, but many put it off, or jump the gun).  :)
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MDM

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Re: How did you figure your fire date?
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2015, 06:23:53 PM »
IMO: Networthify.com is best for rough estimates, cFIREsim is best for historical data.
Agreed.

And if you'd rather have the rough estimate in your own spreadsheet:

There's also an older(?) math formula first posted in these forums (AFAIK) by Heart of Tin:
    Time in years to FI = Ln((S + i*E/WR) / (S + i*A)) / Ln(1 + i)

A = Asset amount currently invested in funds you will draw upon in retirement.
E = Total (including taxes) annual expenses in retirement
i =  Real return on invested retirement funds.
S = Annual amount invested in funds you will draw upon in retirement.
WR = Withdrawal Rate planned for retirement, using Trinity Study definitions.

Networthify  uses an equivalent form of this equation, with
“Current annual savings” = S,
“Current annual expenses” = E,
“Current portfolio value” = A,
“Annual return on investment” = i,
“Withdrawal rate” = WR.

 

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