Author Topic: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?  (Read 3525 times)

Redherring

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Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« on: November 19, 2023, 01:31:49 AM »
I have searched MMM but not found answers applicable to our situation

We are renting in HCOL and ready to RE within the next 12 months. Yay! While we like where we live, plan is get our own house in RE (eventually). I am struggling with the classic question of mortage or not, with the following set of numbers:

Current annual spending (incl rent of 40k) is 150K, so ex-rent 110K. This is also our target spend in RE.
NW is 7M, all invested and this sum is net of taxes, capital gain, etc. No liabilities
Target house price 1M

Scenario 1: Pay cash. Now 6M NW and 110K target spend/year
Scenario 2: 20% DP and 0.8M mortgage. So this will be 6.8M NW and in round numbers 150K spend when considering mortgage/tax/deductions, etc

When I run the numbers in cFIRESIM, these scenarios appear to be nearly a wash. However, withdrawal rate in Scenario 1 is 1.8%, in scenario 2 it is 2.2%.

Based on this set of numbers, my conclusion is that we are better off paying cash for the house. This seems to be against conventional MMM wisdom, am I getting this all wrong?

Let me go a step further. If your FIRE strategy (hypothetically, not how we approach it) would target a SWR of 2.2%, I could either do scenario 2 for a house of 1M, or I could buy a house in cash of 2M (110K/ 2.2%, so covered by a 5M NW). Not that I'd want that, and of course there are other expenses with a house like that (maintenance, taxes, utilities, etc) that would bump up the annual spending (excluded here for simplicity). And obviuosly the NW when dead would be higher in Scenario 2 :-), but RE risk expressed as SWR appear to be the same.

What am I getting wrong/not seeing?

GilesMM

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2023, 01:45:00 AM »
When you pour an excessive amount of cash into a house, you (potentially) convert an investment in a stock/fund/bond into home equity which just sits there doing nothing.  This "house drag" is like "cash drag" on your investment performance.  Had you kept that $1 million invested the last ten years, it would be around $3 million. 


Financially, it is almost always better to borrow and use that leverage offered to you, even at current rates.


Emotionally, some people are not comfortable with a house that is not paid for.

deborah

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2023, 03:06:12 AM »
Are you actually able to get a mortgage? This is something that those who are FIRE often seem to struggle with.

LD_TAndK

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2023, 04:58:07 AM »
You're focused on withdrawal rate but that's not the important number here. You should be focused on final net worth.

2.2% is higher than 1.8%, but it's also a slice out of a bigger account balance that will grow more than the smaller pie (as Giles explained). Additionally, the 2.2% withdrawal will drop off when your mortgage matures, while the 1.8% has no end.

I'd also consider the tax implications of getting $1M cash on hand if you'll need to sell investments.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2023, 05:02:09 AM by LD_TAndK »

mastrr

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2023, 05:31:48 AM »
no mortgage and imo it's not close.  Lock in low expenses for your RE and your NW is large.

rantk81

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2023, 05:39:20 AM »
You didn't ask this question, but I'm going to provide a piece of unsolicited advice, regarding planning to relocate and buy a house at the same time.

If you are relocating to an area you haven't lived in for a long time, I would highly recommend renting for a little while in that area, in order to be *really* sure that it is the place you want to live.  (Before buying a house there.)

Also, shopping for a house in that area will be easier if you already live (renting) in that area, vs trying to buy a house while you live far away in HCOL area.

Just my 2 cents.

GilesMM

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2023, 06:22:06 AM »
Thx GilesMM, but you forget that buying cash means 40k per year more reinvested as annual spend is lower. If you actually run the numbers in cFireSim, it is a wash. Difference is the withdrawal rate, hence my question to the forum


I don't know about all the internal gyrations of CFIRESIM, but in Excel if we assume-
  • $7 million saved today
  • $110,000 spent annually
  • 2% inflation on spending
  • 7% investment growth annually (CAGR)
  • $1,000,000 home purchase
  • 20% down, $800,0000 borrowed
  • 6.75% jumbo interest rate ($5250/mo mortgage)
  • mortgage savings go to investment account if no mortgage
  • ignoring tax effects (you may not be itemizing anyhow)
With purchase for cash, after 30 years you have $41.5 million.  With a mortgage you have $35.2 million.  The difference is about what you have saved today.  As you can imagine, getting investment return on what you save each year and adding to it every year is nowhere near as lucrative as whacking $800k into the market at the beginning.

Morning Glory

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2023, 06:35:17 AM »
You didn't ask this question, but I'm going to provide a piece of unsolicited advice, regarding planning to relocate and buy a house at the same time.

If you are relocating to an area you haven't lived in for a long time, I would highly recommend renting for a little while in that area, in order to be *really* sure that it is the place you want to live.  (Before buying a house there.)

Also, shopping for a house in that area will be easier if you already live (renting) in that area, vs trying to buy a house while you live far away in HCOL area.

Just my 2 cents.

I assumed staying in hcol because a million means a ridiculous huge house or a commercial property anyplace I've ever lived.

I got burned by interest rates going up and stocks going down during my "rent for a year" but I think that was just a bit of bad luck with the timing and most of the time it is better to rent so that you have more time to get a feel for neighborhoods and stuff.  I coudl have gotten a lot more house for the money if id bought right away. Another consideration was that we ended up buying close ro where we were renting so kids wouldn't have to change schools again.

Rates could do anything and the op has a lot of safety margin so I think it's better to run the mortgage vs cash calculation once they find a house.

uniwelder

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2023, 06:47:58 AM »
Are you actually able to get a mortgage? This is something that those who are FIRE often seem to struggle with.

+1.  I don't have any experience in this area, but in previous postings about this topic, it seems pretty rare that someone said they were able to get a mortgage in the US just by showing assets.  The mortgage company nearly always wanted to see a W2. 

Anecdotally, my friend that owns a successful small business (over 10 years in business, a few million in personal net worth) with 15 employees couldn't get qualified for a mortgage because he's seen as too risky.  He tried jumping through some hoops, but just gave up, so his wife is the one listed on the loan.

rantk81

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2023, 07:03:03 AM »
I assumed staying in hcol because a million means a ridiculous huge house or a commercial property anyplace I've ever lived.

Heh, funny how different people can have different perspectives.  I automatically assumed 1M wasn't enough to buy a house in a HCOL area.

GilesMM

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2023, 07:40:46 AM »
Are you actually able to get a mortgage? This is something that those who are FIRE often seem to struggle with.

+1.  I don't have any experience in this area, but in previous postings about this topic, it seems pretty rare that someone said they were able to get a mortgage in the US just by showing assets.  The mortgage company nearly always wanted to see a W2. 

Anecdotally, my friend that owns a successful small business (over 10 years in business, a few million in personal net worth) with 15 employees couldn't get qualified for a mortgage because he's seen as too risky.  He tried jumping through some hoops, but just gave up, so his wife is the one listed on the loan.


There is no issue getting a mortgage if you have invested assets. You just need to find the right broker as not all do it. It’s called an Asset Depletion loan.

Arbitrage

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2023, 09:42:40 AM »
There are a couple of giant factors that need to go into this calculation that aren't accounted for in any simulations.

1. Health care/ACA
2. College funding
(2.5 taxes - some might properly account for the fact that your extra income to cover the mortgage will be taxed at your highest marginal rate, but from what I've seen a lot aren't doing it correctly; you input an average tax rate and would need to change it accordingly for each simulation)

Okay, #2 isn't applicable to a lot of people, but for most early retirees, the ACA is a big deal.  If you have a large mortgage, you need a lot of income to pay that mortgage.  This needed income can kill your ACA subsidy. 

For college, the extra income will severely hamper your ability to get financial aid, if that's something that matters to you.  Auto-zero SAI will prevent FAFSA from paying attention to that giant nest egg.

Now, it sounds like OP is a high spender/fatFIRE type, so perhaps none of this matters to the OP, but for the typical low-spending MMM type, these are huge considerations.

Ron Scott

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2023, 10:18:33 AM »
I think this article is pretty good:
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/111214/buying-home-cash-vs-mortgage.asp

The concept of using your money for investments vs. a home purchase is compelling when you have high returns. But you can’t count on the future being a replay of the past 15 years.

If I were facing this decision today I would be concerned with both the interest rate and the prospects of high returns in the coming decade. That argues AGAINST a mortgage since rates are relatively high and returns might not be all that.

But this is not an either-or thing. You can certainly vary the percentage of the purchase price you borrow.

GilesMM

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2023, 11:27:22 AM »
There are a couple of giant factors that need to go into this calculation that aren't accounted for in any simulations.

1. Health care/ACA
2. College funding
(2.5 taxes - some might properly account for the fact that your extra income to cover the mortgage will be taxed at your highest marginal rate, but from what I've seen a lot aren't doing it correctly; you input an average tax rate and would need to change it accordingly for each simulation)

Okay, #2 isn't applicable to a lot of people, but for most early retirees, the ACA is a big deal.  If you have a large mortgage, you need a lot of income to pay that mortgage.  This needed income can kill your ACA subsidy. 

For college, the extra income will severely hamper your ability to get financial aid, if that's something that matters to you.  Auto-zero SAI will prevent FAFSA from paying attention to that giant nest egg.

Now, it sounds like OP is a high spender/fatFIRE type, so perhaps none of this matters to the OP, but for the typical low-spending MMM type, these are huge considerations.


Depending on what the OP's mix of after-tax and pre-tax investments, they can have a large withdrawal with no income tax.  So, potentially not an issue at all.

spartana

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2023, 04:55:28 PM »
I posted this already but it seems to be MIA so reposting to say I had my own struggles to get a mortgage or HELOC or even a rental once I sold my place because I was FIREd with no earned income. No one would do an asset backed morgage. When I owned my paid off house I was denied a  HELOC (this on a place in a HCOL area that was paid off). I had trouble even finding someone to rent me a place despite having a large stash and no debt since I had no earned income. Plus I was youngish so was still years away from traditional retirement accounts. So I ended up buying again and paying cash.

The OP,  with his very high level of assets, may not have that problem, but it's something to be aware of. Some here have had to put down a very large down payment to qualify. But again that's not a problem for the OP but no guarantee someone will loan him that much even with a large down payment. Too many lenders burned by the 2008 housing market collapse. 



« Last Edit: November 19, 2023, 05:12:43 PM by spartana »

wageslave23

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2023, 06:01:08 PM »
Would you take out a loan to invest more money in the stock market? Because that's basically what you are doing when you decide to borrow against your house in order to invest. That's poor people thinking, myself included. You don't need to maximize gains by taking on more risk, you need to minimize risk. You already won, now you just run out the clock.  It's a no brainer in your situation especially with these current rates. And I personally still have a mortgage that I choose not to pay off. But it's 3% and I only have a little over a million networth. Don't look for more leverage. 

MrGreen

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2023, 06:35:37 PM »
They're a wash because mortgage rates are as high as the long-term average return on the market.

spartana

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2023, 08:23:24 PM »
They're a wash because mortgage rates are as high as the long-term average return on the market.
And what is the cost of a mortgage these days? All the added fees etc to get the mortgage surely add up on a approx million dollar mortgage. Plus there are a lot of people willing to sell to all-cash buyers at substansially lower costs. And much faster. If rates and fees were lower then I can see the value in getting a mortgage.. As they are now I'm not so sure.

Dicey

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2023, 11:41:51 PM »
They're a wash because mortgage rates are as high as the long-term average return on the market.
And what is the cost of a mortgage these days? All the added fees etc to get the mortgage surely add up on a approx million dollar mortgage. Plus there are a lot of people willing to sell to all-cash buyers at substansially lower costs. And much faster. If rates and fees were lower then I can see the value in getting a mortgage.. As they are now I'm not so sure.
     
Where are these lot of people?

lutorm

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2023, 01:49:00 AM »
You don't need to maximize gains by taking on more risk, you need to minimize risk.
This would be my thinking as well. If you've set this up in cfiresim, then look at how the worst outcomes change. That's what should determine your actions, because in the good outcomes it won't matter.

clifp

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2023, 02:53:37 AM »
I posted this already but it seems to be MIA so reposting to say I had my own struggles to get a mortgage or HELOC or even a rental once I sold my place because I was FIREd with no earned income. No one would do an asset backed morgage. When I owned my paid off house I was denied a  HELOC (this on a place in a HCOL area that was paid off). I had trouble even finding someone to rent me a place despite having a large stash and no debt since I had no earned income. Plus I was youngish so was still years away from traditional retirement accounts. So I ended up buying again and paying cash.

The OP,  with his very high level of assets, may not have that problem, but it's something to be aware of. Some here have had to put down a very large down payment to qualify. But again that's not a problem for the OP but no guarantee someone will loan him that much even with a large down payment. Too many lenders burned by the 2008 housing market collapse.

It can be difficult to get an asset based mortgage, but it is definitely possibly, and you get get as good rates as folks with regulars W2.  Most banks, don't know them about them, it is hit miss in place like Rocket Mortgage. You'll very likely need to work with a mortgage broker, and as I found out the hard one, some broker claim they know how to do them but it turns they lied.
I'll happily send a recommendation to anyone who needs them, for broker who was quite good.

Gremlin

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2023, 03:18:02 AM »
I posted this already but it seems to be MIA so reposting to say I had my own struggles to get a mortgage or HELOC or even a rental once I sold my place because I was FIREd with no earned income. No one would do an asset backed morgage. When I owned my paid off house I was denied a  HELOC (this on a place in a HCOL area that was paid off). I had trouble even finding someone to rent me a place despite having a large stash and no debt since I had no earned income. Plus I was youngish so was still years away from traditional retirement accounts. So I ended up buying again and paying cash.

The OP,  with his very high level of assets, may not have that problem, but it's something to be aware of. Some here have had to put down a very large down payment to qualify. But again that's not a problem for the OP but no guarantee someone will loan him that much even with a large down payment. Too many lenders burned by the 2008 housing market collapse.

It can be difficult to get an asset based mortgage, but it is definitely possibly, and you get get as good rates as folks with regulars W2.  Most banks, don't know them about them, it is hit miss in place like Rocket Mortgage. You'll very likely need to work with a mortgage broker, and as I found out the hard one, some broker claim they know how to do them but it turns they lied.
I'll happily send a recommendation to anyone who needs them, for broker who was quite good.

That sounds like an awful number of hoops to jump through for something which is completely unneeded for the OP.

clifp

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2023, 03:46:30 AM »
I agree it doesn't make a lot of sense for the OP.  However, a far number of folk are gong to move to a new city after retirement, and may need a mortgage, especially if most of their asset are in IRA.   

Ron Scott

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2023, 05:22:25 AM »
Thanks all for your input, for me it balances out to paying cash for the house when we eventually decide to buy. Should ultra low mortgage rates come back, maybe that will change my position, but        lower risk paying the house in cash, thereby lowering our burn, makes sense to me.
Now the question is if I keep the money in the market until I buy or if I pull out the 1M now.. I‘d tend to keep in market until I need it.. thoughts?

Good decision on the purchase.

As you know the stock market is volatile and as such is a place for long term investing, not a holding pen for cash needed in a relatively short period of time. MMs are pretty good these days for that.

AlanStache

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2023, 05:45:22 AM »
They're a wash because mortgage rates are as high as the long-term average return on the market.

Yep.  I bought in cash early this year.  7% mortgage vs 7% historical rate of return = wash.  Very nice to not have to think about getting the cash for a monthly payment, when buying the closing was a bit simpler and took fewer forms.  Paying cash also helps with the sequence of return risks, ie some bad market years early on - maybe a bit less an issue with your net worth.  Just be ready to show proof of assets when talking to a realtor and making an offer, I sent mine a screen shot of my brokerage account and that was sufficient but am in a much lower COLA.

Ron Scott

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2023, 07:27:15 AM »
They're a wash because mortgage rates are as high as the long-term average return on the market.

Yep.  I bought in cash early this year.  7% mortgage vs 7% historical rate of return = wash.  Very nice to not have to think about getting the cash for a monthly payment, when buying the closing was a bit simpler and took fewer forms.  Paying cash also helps with the sequence of return risks, ie some bad market years early on - maybe a bit less an issue with your net worth.  Just be ready to show proof of assets when talking to a realtor and making an offer, I sent mine a screen shot of my brokerage account and that was sufficient but am in a much lower COLA.

It’s sequence of returns AND general volatility over time. The more money you NEED to take from your investments for living expenses the greater the chance you will need to sell assets as a loss.

Turtle

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2023, 08:28:27 AM »
Thanks all for your input, for me it balances out to paying cash for the house when we eventually decide to buy. Should ultra low mortgage rates come back, maybe that will change my position, but        lower risk paying the house in cash, thereby lowering our burn, makes sense to me.
Now the question is if I keep the money in the market until I buy or if I pull out the 1M now.. I‘d tend to keep in market until I need it.. thoughts?

There's nothing that says you need to pull it all out at once.  If it were me, I would dollar cost average by rolling a chunk over periodically whenever there's been a big run up of the stocks you are planning to sell.

Depending on your purchase price and how much net gains you have, it may also be to your advantage to do it now before the federal tax rate reverts.  (Assuming you're in the USA, of course.)

Laura33

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2023, 09:04:18 AM »
1.  Pay cash -- particularly at 7%.

Financial success depends on both capturing the upside and minimizing the downside risk.  When you're working, you can afford to focus on capturing the upside, because the continuous firehose of cash called a salary provides a lot of cushion.  So you focus on big risks that can throw you off-target, like having an EF for if the job goes away and life/disability/medical insurance for when shit happens -- you're basically protecting that income stream/your ability to continue generating that income stream. 

Once you decide to give up that giant firehose of cash, a big, giant cushion goes away.  So minimizing the downside risk becomes more important.  The good news is that you now have your own personal giant cushion of cash to ride on that is no longer depending on you working.  So now you likely don't need life insurance or disability insurance any more, because you no longer need to protect an income stream that comes from someone else.  You can decrease your EF.  But on the flip side, it's now on you to manage that giant cash cushion so that it lasts for the next 40 or 50 years.  You do that in part by your asset allocation; part of the reason to keep some of your $$ in cash/CDs/bonds/etc. is so you don't have to sell out at the height of a crash to cover daily expenses.  But just as in pre-FIRE, reducing the amount of cash you need every month to cover your spending is a very powerful shield against running out of $$.  Sure, right now, it looks like a wash.  But what is the worst-case scenario you're protecting against?  If you get a stock market crash, that  2-3% withdrawal rate can suddenly become 4-5% -- and now you have a bigger nut you have to cover, too.

Leverage is a very powerful tool when building wealth, because it multiplies the impact of the growth in value -- and, in the instance of a home, allows you to keep more money in the stock market, with its high-growth potential, while still capturing 100% of the growth in value of your home price (because you capture all of that regardless of whether you own 1% or 100% of that house).  OTOH, leverage also multiplies the impact of loss of value; if you have 10% down on a home and the home loses 20% in value, you now owe the bank more than the home is worth.  There is a reason highly-leveraged businesses tend to run in a boom and bust cycle.  Once you FIRE, the latter becomes far more important than the former.  So what if a mortgage might allow you to die with $40M instead of $30M?  Who gives a fuck?  You'll be dead!  And the $30M scenario is still 5-10x what you might even possibly need to cover your expenses.  When you've won the game, stop playing.

2.  Figure out your desired AA once you FIRE, and start to move toward that now.

When you move from the growth phase to the "make sure it lasts 50 years" phase, you need to look at your portfolio in a different way, because now you have to focus more on both mitigating risks and taking $$ out.  None of this should involve drastic change; what we've done is to start to direct new $$ into the areas we haven't previously focused on (like bonds).  So if you're a few years out, this is the perfect time to start focusing in on how you want your portfolio to manage your future retirement phase.

FWIW, my plan to mitigate risks of having to sell in a downturn is to keep 3-5 years of expenses in a bond/CD ladder.  That's the perfect kind of thing to start a few years before you FIRE:  if you want a 5-year CD ladder, say, then 5 years before your FIRE, you put one future year's expenses in CDs that mature in 5 years.  Do that every year, and by the time you FIRE, you have that first year's expenses ready to go and your ladder in place.  Then you keep doing that every year by converting investments into CDs.  But if the market is bad, you can hold off on that for a year or two and just ride your existing ladder, before replenishing it when the market improves. 

But there are a lot of other ways to do it, too.  Some keep a set AA and sell what they need to to cover expenses from the overperforming sector.  Some focus on dividend-paying stocks or rental properties or other investments that throw off cash.  You just need to figure out what approach makes the most sense given your own goals and risk tolerance.

spartana

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2023, 09:33:27 AM »
They're a wash because mortgage rates are as high as the long-term average return on the market.
And what is the cost of a mortgage these days? All the added fees etc to get the mortgage surely add up on a approx million dollar mortgage. Plus there are a lot of people willing to sell to all-cash buyers at substansially lower costs. And much faster. If rates and fees were lower then I can see the value in getting a mortgage.. As they are now I'm not so sure.
     
Where are these lot of people?
Lol Down here in da hood where developers and investment groups are still buying up our crappy little million dollar houses for cash to rehab, raze or throw up a couple of ADUs (or all 3). Traditional mortgage buyers even with deep pockets can't compete. Most owners (including me) were happy to take a lower offer for a guareented very fast sale with no hassles rather then wait for a mortgage buyer who may end up not qualifying. I also got a lower price on my new place by offering all cash and a quick sale even though they had higher offers. Sellers like knowing they'll have that money asap with little risk it falls through.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2023, 09:41:04 AM by spartana »

simonsez

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2023, 11:13:21 AM »
Would you take out a loan to invest more money in the stock market? Because that's basically what you are doing when you decide to borrow against your house in order to invest. That's poor people thinking, myself included. You don't need to maximize gains by taking on more risk, you need to minimize risk. You already won, now you just run out the clock.  It's a no brainer in your situation especially with these current rates. And I personally still have a mortgage that I choose not to pay off. But it's 3% and I only have a little over a million networth. Don't look for more leverage.
Yeah, once you've won quite comfortably, who cares about winning by an additional margin?  I'd reduce the headache and simplify as much as possible in this scenario - especially since the alternatives aren't expected to be wildly different.  I vote 'no mortgage'.

Or if you are one of those people that cares about financially winning more and more and optimizing until your last dying breath, you wouldn't be asking this question on this forum.  For some, there's no such thing as 'enough' and life is viewed as a game to keep seeing that NW soar higher and higher.

Dicey

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2023, 11:24:14 AM »
They're a wash because mortgage rates are as high as the long-term average return on the market.
And what is the cost of a mortgage these days? All the added fees etc to get the mortgage surely add up on a approx million dollar mortgage. Plus there are a lot of people willing to sell to all-cash buyers at substansially lower costs. And much faster. If rates and fees were lower then I can see the value in getting a mortgage.. As they are now I'm not so sure.
     
Where are these lot of people?
Lol Down here in da hood where developers and investment groups are still buying up our crappy little million dollar houses for cash to rehab, raze or throw up a couple of ADUs (or all 3). Traditional mortgage buyers even with deep pockets can't compete. Most owners (including me) were happy to take a lower offer for a guareented very fast sale with no hassles rather then wait for a mortgage buyer who may end up not qualifying. I also got a lower price on my new place by offering all cash and a quick sale even though they had higher offers. Sellers like knowing they'll have that money asap with little risk it falls through.
That should be the way it works, but in my region, there is so little inventory, it doesn't really happen much. The one thing I notice is the "I will pay cash for your house" people seem to having some luck, but they are buying houses that never hit the market, generally because they're in poor really crappy shape. Of course, they do a ton of advertising to find their suckers leads.

How did you find your new place?

Laura33

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2023, 12:10:21 PM »
They're a wash because mortgage rates are as high as the long-term average return on the market.
And what is the cost of a mortgage these days? All the added fees etc to get the mortgage surely add up on a approx million dollar mortgage. Plus there are a lot of people willing to sell to all-cash buyers at substansially lower costs. And much faster. If rates and fees were lower then I can see the value in getting a mortgage.. As they are now I'm not so sure.
     
Where are these lot of people?
Lol Down here in da hood where developers and investment groups are still buying up our crappy little million dollar houses for cash to rehab, raze or throw up a couple of ADUs (or all 3). Traditional mortgage buyers even with deep pockets can't compete. Most owners (including me) were happy to take a lower offer for a guareented very fast sale with no hassles rather then wait for a mortgage buyer who may end up not qualifying. I also got a lower price on my new place by offering all cash and a quick sale even though they had higher offers. Sellers like knowing they'll have that money asap with little risk it falls through.
That should be the way it works, but in my region, there is so little inventory, it doesn't really happen much. The one thing I notice is the "I will pay cash for your house" people seem to having some luck, but they are buying houses that never hit the market, generally because they're in poor really crappy shape. Of course, they do a ton of advertising to find their suckers leads.

How did you find your new place?

Weird -- I'd expect it to be more prominent when there are more buyers than sellers.  It's desirable not just because the seller knows they have the cash, but because waiving the mortgage contingency and not needing a contingent sale makes it more certain the deal will go through (also, mortgage companies are more likely to be sticklers on things like title searches and inspections to protect their investment, so it's just an easier, more secure process all around for the seller).  We've lost out twice now on condos in our retirement destination, even with an all-cash/no contingent sale offer, to others with all-cash offers who were also willing to get into a bidding war (we're not).  Someone with a mortgage contingency wouldn't even have made the cut.

That's totally different than the "we pay cash for houses" people, who are basically seeing if they can get a lowball price, usually by scaring sellers about how the neighborhood is degrading.

spartana

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2023, 12:39:01 PM »
They're a wash because mortgage rates are as high as the long-term average return on the market.
And what is the cost of a mortgage these days? All the added fees etc to get the mortgage surely add up on a approx million dollar mortgage. Plus there are a lot of people willing to sell to all-cash buyers at substansially lower costs. And much faster. If rates and fees were lower then I can see the value in getting a mortgage.. As they are now I'm not so sure.
     
Where are these lot of people?
Lol Down here in da hood where developers and investment groups are still buying up our crappy little million dollar houses for cash to rehab, raze or throw up a couple of ADUs (or all 3). Traditional mortgage buyers even with deep pockets can't compete. Most owners (including me) were happy to take a lower offer for a guareented very fast sale with no hassles rather then wait for a mortgage buyer who may end up not qualifying. I also got a lower price on my new place by offering all cash and a quick sale even though they had higher offers. Sellers like knowing they'll have that money asap with little risk it falls through.
That should be the way it works, but in my region, there is so little inventory, it doesn't really happen much. The one thing I notice is the "I will pay cash for your house" people seem to having some luck, but they are buying houses that never hit the market, generally because they're in poor really crappy shape. Of course, they do a ton of advertising to find their suckers leads.

How did you find your new place?

Weird -- I'd expect it to be more prominent when there are more buyers than sellers.  It's desirable not just because the seller knows they have the cash, but because waiving the mortgage contingency and not needing a contingent sale makes it more certain the deal will go through (also, mortgage companies are more likely to be sticklers on things like title searches and inspections to protect their investment, so it's just an easier, more secure process all around for the seller).  We've lost out twice now on condos in our retirement destination, even with an all-cash/no contingent sale offer, to others with all-cash offers who were also willing to get into a bidding war (we're not).  Someone with a mortgage contingency wouldn't even have made the cut.

That's totally different than the "we pay cash for houses" people, who are basically seeing if they can get a lowball price, usually by scaring sellers about how the neighborhood is degrading.
Yeah these weren't the TV ad "we'll buy your house for cash" people but serious investor groups (many foreign from China) who actually pay FMV and sometimes above with cash. They buy a lot of commercial property too including multimillion dollar places and do nothing at all with them. They (and often times the houses they buy) get tore down and  just sit vacant for years. And when they do build, they build big...really big...with several ADUs and lots of renters. It's crazy but they are mainly interested in the land and not the house. I just went down the zillow wormhole and places are still very high (over a million) for small older homes in the 1000 SF or under range. The rare empty lot goes for higher since they don't have tear down costs. Zillow had one 4,800 SF lot listed for $1.2 million. Most older homes here sit on lots double that size.   
« Last Edit: November 20, 2023, 12:42:01 PM by spartana »

Arbitrage

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2023, 04:44:47 PM »
There are a couple of giant factors that need to go into this calculation that aren't accounted for in any simulations.

1. Health care/ACA
2. College funding
(2.5 taxes - some might properly account for the fact that your extra income to cover the mortgage will be taxed at your highest marginal rate, but from what I've seen a lot aren't doing it correctly; you input an average tax rate and would need to change it accordingly for each simulation)

Okay, #2 isn't applicable to a lot of people, but for most early retirees, the ACA is a big deal.  If you have a large mortgage, you need a lot of income to pay that mortgage.  This needed income can kill your ACA subsidy. 

For college, the extra income will severely hamper your ability to get financial aid, if that's something that matters to you.  Auto-zero SAI will prevent FAFSA from paying attention to that giant nest egg.

Now, it sounds like OP is a high spender/fatFIRE type, so perhaps none of this matters to the OP, but for the typical low-spending MMM type, these are huge considerations.


Depending on what the OP's mix of after-tax and pre-tax investments, they can have a large withdrawal with no income tax.  So, potentially not an issue at all.

Potentially not an issue, yes.  Potentially a huge issue, also yes.

partgypsy

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2023, 09:32:25 PM »
They're a wash because mortgage rates are as high as the long-term average return on the market.
And what is the cost of a mortgage these days? All the added fees etc to get the mortgage surely add up on a approx million dollar mortgage. Plus there are a lot of people willing to sell to all-cash buyers at substansially lower costs. And much faster. If rates and fees were lower then I can see the value in getting a mortgage.. As they are now I'm not so sure.
     
Where are these lot of people?
Lol Down here in da hood where developers and investment groups are still buying up our crappy little million dollar houses for cash to rehab, raze or throw up a couple of ADUs (or all 3). Traditional mortgage buyers even with deep pockets can't compete. Most owners (including me) were happy to take a lower offer for a guareented very fast sale with no hassles rather then wait for a mortgage buyer who may end up not qualifying. I also got a lower price on my new place by offering all cash and a quick sale even though they had higher offers. Sellers like knowing they'll have that money asap with little risk it falls through.
yeah. When my mom sold her house she sold it to someone willing to pay cash and planning to do a gut reno. It got it for a decent price and it was less hassle for my mom since she didn't have to fix everything before selling.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2023, 09:34:57 PM by partgypsy »

spartana

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2023, 12:03:43 AM »
They're a wash because mortgage rates are as high as the long-term average return on the market.
And what is the cost of a mortgage these days? All the added fees etc to get the mortgage surely add up on a approx million dollar mortgage. Plus there are a lot of people willing to sell to all-cash buyers at substansially lower costs. And much faster. If rates and fees were lower then I can see the value in getting a mortgage.. As they are now I'm not so sure.
     
Where are these lot of people?
Lol Down here in da hood where developers and investment groups are still buying up our crappy little million dollar houses for cash to rehab, raze or throw up a couple of ADUs (or all 3). Traditional mortgage buyers even with deep pockets can't compete. Most owners (including me) were happy to take a lower offer for a guareented very fast sale with no hassles rather then wait for a mortgage buyer who may end up not qualifying. I also got a lower price on my new place by offering all cash and a quick sale even though they had higher offers. Sellers like knowing they'll have that money asap with little risk it falls through.
yeah. When my mom sold her house she sold it to someone willing to pay cash and planning to do a gut reno. It got it for a decent price and it was less hassle for my mom since she didn't have to fix everything before selling.
I was actually pretty shocked that the "nice asian family" who bought my house tore it down and built a giant 2 story 5000 SF house with  8 (tiny) bedrooms and 8 ensuite baths place plus a 2 story 2 bedroom/ 2 bath ADU and rented them all out as room rentals. They ended up being investors that owned a lot of properties.  Didn't see that coming even though it was happening all over even during the Pandemic. After I moved 2 houses across street from my old place were bought for the land value, razed, then mcmansionized.  But they are used as Airbnbs rather then room rentals.

LiveLean

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2023, 09:33:05 AM »
Hell no on mortgage.

Why deal with the aggravation of dealing with mortgage brokers who obsess about your (lack of) income, not your (admirable) net worth?  Just cluelessness in that industry. Pay cash. You have plenty and plenty of other investments.

As you get older, there are certain people you've earned the right not to deal with anymore --- mortgage brokers are at the top of the list.

reeshau

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2023, 11:22:33 AM »
Are you actually able to get a mortgage? This is something that those who are FIRE often seem to struggle with.

+1.  I don't have any experience in this area, but in previous postings about this topic, it seems pretty rare that someone said they were able to get a mortgage in the US just by showing assets.  The mortgage company nearly always wanted to see a W2. 

Anecdotally, my friend that owns a successful small business (over 10 years in business, a few million in personal net worth) with 15 employees couldn't get qualified for a mortgage because he's seen as too risky.  He tried jumping through some hoops, but just gave up, so his wife is the one listed on the loan.


There is no issue getting a mortgage if you have invested assets. You just need to find the right broker as not all do it. It’s called an Asset Depletion loan.

Asset Depletion loans were a total no-go when we returned to the US in 2020.  I've gone through brokers before, so comfortable with non-bank people and processes.  I left my name with a lot of people "for later," but never got a response.

Also, asset depletion is fine if you primarily have taxable investments, or have a big payday coming (i.e. a movie star)  But asset depletion won't count your IRA's if you are far from 59 1/2, even if you show them all the ways to access that cash early.  You will have to qualify on taxable alone.

nereo

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2023, 11:38:33 AM »
Hell no on mortgage.

Why deal with the aggravation of dealing with mortgage brokers who obsess about your (lack of) income, not your (admirable) net worth?  Just cluelessness in that industry. Pay cash. You have plenty and plenty of other investments.


It’s not cluelessness. They just have a method of assessing risk which works well for salaried employees and less well for high NW but no income folks. It’s understandable, as most of the people who fit into the latter tend to be much older and carry a higher risk of not living through the amortization period.

Put another way, Mortgage Brokers don’t need to extend loans to “non-standard” clients to make money. It’s extra work on their end. So most won’t. It’s not about them being clueless - they just don’t need us. 

simonsez

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2023, 12:17:30 PM »
@nereo Can you expand on the risk involved with older people with high NW but no W-2/1099 income as it pertains to dying before the full amortization period?  How is the lender at risk if the person with a high NW dies?  Do probate courts ever nullify loans on behalf of the deceased when there exist funds to square up the loan?  Or do you just mean the lender would not earn the totality of interest since the duration of the loan was shorter than the full intended amortization schedule?  I would think lenders would love that since the amortization schedule leans much more heavily on the interest at the beginning of the payback period compared to the end (thus giving the lender their capital back and able to lend it out again earning more interest on the front end).

Interested to learn more about this.

Laura33

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2023, 12:33:42 PM »
@nereo Can you expand on the risk involved with older people with high NW but no W-2/1099 income as it pertains to dying before the full amortization period?  How is the lender at risk if the person with a high NW dies?  Do probate courts ever nullify loans on behalf of the deceased when there exist funds to square up the loan?  Or do you just mean the lender would not earn the totality of interest since the duration of the loan was shorter than the full intended amortization schedule?  I would think lenders would love that since the amortization schedule leans much more heavily on the interest at the beginning of the payback period compared to the end (thus giving the lender their capital back and able to lend it out again earning more interest on the front end).

Interested to learn more about this.

I am not the expert on this, so add a huge grain of salt, but:  I believe that, at least in some states, there are protections provided for inherited homes (i.e., the mortgage company cannot use that as a reason to call the loan).  So they can do all the due diligence they want on grandpa, but who's to say that $1M IRA doesn't go to grandson, while the house goes to granddaughter who can't afford to maintain it properly?  Now they have effectively "loaned" money to someone who they never would have agreed to give a mortgage to in the first place -- and who will likely allow the value of the collateral to deteriorate in the interim.

Most mortgage lenders don't actually want to go through foreclosure and take the house back; they just want the loan paid, and their collateral appropriately maintained in the interim.  With inheritance, they cannot ensure that will happen, and their recourse is more limited.

simonsez

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2023, 12:35:43 PM »
Thanks @Laura33 that makes sense! 

nereo

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2023, 02:55:23 PM »
Thanks @Laura33 that makes sense!
Also far from an expert, but my understanding is the lenders just want their checks each month. They don’t want the delay and uncertainty involved with settling an estate, and they make no Bonney (additional interest) when it’s paid off early in full.

GilesMM

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Re: Housebuying when FIRE'd - mortgage or not?
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2023, 06:52:46 PM »
Mortgage lenders are prohibited by law from age or health status discrimination but they can find other subjective reasons to make it hard to get a loan if they think you are on the brink of death.  Something to keep in mind if those apply to you.