Author Topic: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger  (Read 8421 times)

Cap_Scarlet

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Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« on: February 22, 2015, 04:40:43 AM »
To coin a phrase, I am holding the gun of early retirement firmly in my hand but can't / won't / don't want to pull the trigger.

I've been thinking hard about this for a while as we approached FI and I can't really work out whether I simply have an institutionalised approach to work or whether there's something else there.  So i thought I'd set it out for some analysis.

We are 50 & 52 and live in Europe.  Have about €1.3 million in savings (likely to increase to around €1.5 by the end of this year) to tide us over until we start receiving pensions.  Our pensions comprise defined benefits schemes that will pay around €60,000 a year from age 62.  We also have a deferred salary scheme which has a terminal value of around €800,000 with the first instalement of €65,000 at age 60.  So taking into account notice period our savings need to "last" 9 years.  So in my view we are pretty much all set.

The problem is I'm really not sure I want to go.

I'm trying to analyse in my head why that is and mostly it comes down to free time.  Essentially I want more free time to travel the world than six weeks of holiday offers.  But do i really want to have complete free time?  I've not got a huge array of hobbies and don't want to fill the spare time with things just for the sake of it.  Work is quite challenging mentally and frankly I think it keeps me psychologically on my toes.  Honestly I am a bit worried that once I take away the objective of work I'm a little concerned that I'll be bored.

Also, there is the money.  We are not extravagent but there are some things we like that cost a lot of money (mainly holidays and cars)  of course we have enough money for decent holidays in retirement but not the really FU money that makes decision making so easy (its pyschologically very different spending money out of pot that keeps replenishing itself every month to one which could potentially diminish over the next 10 years).  There is something awfully attractive about the virtual thud of a pay cheque hitting the bank account every month.

I am tempted to look for a halfway house whereby i look for a doubling or trebling of my holiday entitlement (i.e. from 30 to 60 or 90 days a year) and I suspect that might be what I'm looking for.  Although the downside of such an arrangement is that whilst there is a precedent for people doing this in our organization, generally they go to a four day week rather than taking big chunks of leave at a time which would be my preferred route.

At the end of the day I know all the variables, I've looked at my spreadsheets a million times and now feel slightly in paralysis.  Any thoughts appreciated.

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2015, 06:04:03 AM »
Cap Scarlet,

Every day you stay on the job is one day less of freedom that you will have in your life.  You won't be able to "add that day back" later on.  Life is finite.  And that is non-negotiable.  Free yourself now.

And do not worry about being bored in retirement.  I tell you from personal experience, as long as you stay curious and alert, it will not happen.  You will, in fact, find yourself with more things you want to do than time to do them in.  Which is another reason to get job-free as soon as possible.

Good luck!

2527

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2015, 06:26:28 AM »
I have an almost identical situation and I continue to work.  One reason is my kids are in school so not having a job won't give me much more freedom.   And I basically like my job and it doesn't really have any negatives.

I get every other Friday off and I really like it.  I can have a three day weekend for travel or use that Friday for all my local stuff, and save my vacation time (4 weeks) to take in big chunks. It works out pretty well for me. 

If the 4-day workweek doesn't please you, you can always go for a situation with more time off.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 06:34:34 AM by 2527 »

JasonS

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2015, 08:05:11 AM »
Talk to your boss/company about whether or not there is an opportunity to take 3-6 months vacation per year as you mentioned.  Not knowing your situation, perhaps there is another person in the company with a similar job description that wants the same as you.  You could each work 1/2 time, couple months at at time.  Hopefully there are some creative minds that you can work with to come to a mutually beneficial solution.
Good luck!

Lordy

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2015, 08:19:49 AM »
If you don't want to stop completely, go part-time.

In my previous job I switched to the 4-day-week and you wouldn't believe how much of a difference it makes.

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2015, 08:23:09 AM »
Any thoughts appreciated.

FIRE doesn't mean you have to stop working. It just means you don't have to work.

I would draft up whatever plan you have in mind and take it to your company. Don't make it a request. If you are hard working and valuable to them then they will be inclined to try and make it work.

Let's say it doesn't work out.

You can look for some other work that fits the plans you have for your "retirement". You'll have lots of time to visit many companies and talk to lots of people. If you have valuable skills/experience something will come up.

I would take advantage of your new found freedom to work on your own terms if you want to continue working.

-- Vik

MLKnits

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2015, 08:30:48 AM »
Three questions:
1) Are you in a field that lends itself to consulting work or other kinds of self-employment? As in, do companies like yours hire outsiders to evaluate them, suggest improvements, or do short-term work?

2) If you left your job (on good terms), would it be feasible to be re-hired in a year or two if retirement really doesn't suit you?

3) Is there anything else you could see yourself doing that would feel productive and structured, in a perfect world? Volunteering, teaching, crafting, mentoring, writing?

sandandsun

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2015, 08:43:35 AM »
Everything in your post resonated with me... we are bare-bones FI now (at 41/43) and plan to work until 49/51... so about 7 and a half years more. A couple of reasons for this: will coincide with when both kids start college (so will be free to travel/move/etc. at that time) and the additional $ will allow us to spend a lot more in retirement than we do now if we choose (but even then, I see it being well below our means). 
I wonder how I will feel as that time approaches?  I am hoping to gear down about 1-2 years out and start taking more vacation, letting go of some of the ownership I have for certain aspects of the job.  It likely wont be a formal gear down for me, but more of a mental one as I see the end in sight and start to turn loose of some responsibility. 
You could definitely go any time you want- even with maintaining your occasional car/travel spending.  You could set up a monthly 'check' for spending if that would be better psychologically (although its still different when that check is from your own stash :).
I would definitely explore the possibility of more vacay/fewer work days... you have nothing to lose by asking (which is really the point of FI anyway)...
Good luck!  and keep us posted on what you decide to do!

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2015, 09:22:25 AM »
Sandandsun... Interesting.

I am bare bones FI at 42, but feel the urge to stop work now, for 5 years, then when kids are in college, I have no problem going back to work after ( which could be at lesser pay, and that is fine).  I feel that this is my last chance to be fully with them, so now or never.  Just need to convince DH that Aug works for us to start.  That will take some doing.

Do you fell the urge to have a parent home with kids now that you are FI (ish?)

ender

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2015, 03:15:11 PM »
If you don't want to stop completely, go part-time.

In my previous job I switched to the 4-day-week and you wouldn't believe how much of a difference it makes.

Yeah, was going to suggest this.

What do you do? Some careers facilitate partial work schedules much better than others. Or for me, I could easily contribute to open-source software projects if I wanted to not work for a company. Some jobs are much easier to continue work at your own pace/schedule than others, too.

kiwigirls

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2015, 03:47:17 PM »
Firstly Congratulations!  Celebrate the fact that you can do whatever you want with your time & also recognise that you don't have to quit your job just because you can.  I found my job much more enjoyable when I realised that I didn't need to do it anymore.  Going to work is a choice that I make so that I can fund my travel addiction & because I like a few luxuries in life.  You should decide what you want from your work - how much time off do you want? Will taking a sabbatical for 4-6 months give you time to see what life would be like if you retired?  Or would you rather negotiate a couple of shorter extended breaks ie leave without pay so you can take more weeks holiday each year?  These can be stepping stones until you are ready to stop work altogether.    For me I want to continue doing contract/project work indefinitely so long as I can have 3 months leave each year.  What I do know is that my employer offers me much more flexible working arrangements because I don't need to work than other employees who do need to pay the mortgage.  The balance of power & negotiation has definitely shifted in your favour!

sandandsun

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2015, 06:16:16 PM »
Sandandsun... Interesting.

I am bare bones FI at 42, but feel the urge to stop work now, for 5 years, then when kids are in college, I have no problem going back to work after ( which could be at lesser pay, and that is fine).  I feel that this is my last chance to be fully with them, so now or never.  Just need to convince DH that Aug works for us to start.  That will take some doing.

Do you fell the urge to have a parent home with kids now that you are FI (ish?)

We are actually in a somewhat unique situation in that we work for a university where our kids' tuition is covered if we are employed there- and when we retire they have 4 additional years to use the benefit... I should have clarified that as it is a big consideration for us in our retirement timing.  We do want to buy and spend half time at a second home when we retire - something that isn't feasible with kids still in school.  Once the kids are in college, I think we feel like we will have total freedom to come and go as we wish...  We do not have a parent home full time right now- with both kids in school there is only about an hour-ish that we aren't with them in the evenings, so not really worth it now to have someone home all day- would have been a consideration if we'd been FI when they were smaller probably.

Cap_Scarlet

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2015, 01:11:06 AM »
Three questions:
1) Are you in a field that lends itself to consulting work or other kinds of self-employment? As in, do companies like yours hire outsiders to evaluate them, suggest improvements, or do short-term work?

2) If you left your job (on good terms), would it be feasible to be re-hired in a year or two if retirement really doesn't suit you?

3) Is there anything else you could see yourself doing that would feel productive and structured, in a perfect world? Volunteering, teaching, crafting, mentoring, writing?

Thanks for the reply.

1. Partially as I am in finance / accounting so there are some bits I can do either from home or remotely (as I spend a lot of time on the road).

2. Possible but unlikely given my age - generally they are looking to move people on / out after age 50..

3. I guess in a perfect perfect world I would quite like to be a travel blogger but I also have some teaching skills so it is an option to do some guest lecturing.

What is really comes down to is whatever alternative arrangement I come up with, there will be a fairly substantial fall in income and I will go from having a fairly easy ride to making things more difficult (e.g. if I decide to work for myself).

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2015, 04:47:35 AM »
It's possible that you don't quite realise that your work takes up not just a lot of your time but also a lot of your energy.  And not just your physical energy but your mental and emotional energy as well.  Once you are liberated from work and reclaim this energy for yourself whole new horizons of thought and action open up.  You will find, after a period of decompression, that not working is entirely different from being on holiday.

With the extra time and energy you will have, it will no longer be so important to you to spend money on quick and easy solutions, so you may well find that some of your more extravagant expenditures naturally tone themselves down without any effort on your part.

Come on in, the water's lovely.

Cap_Scarlet

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2015, 06:38:54 AM »
It's possible that you don't quite realise that your work takes up not just a lot of your time but also a lot of your energy.  And not just your physical energy but your mental and emotional energy as well.  Once you are liberated from work and reclaim this energy for yourself whole new horizons of thought and action open up.  You will find, after a period of decompression, that not working is entirely different from being on holiday.

With the extra time and energy you will have, it will no longer be so important to you to spend money on quick and easy solutions, so you may well find that some of your more extravagant expenditures naturally tone themselves down without any effort on your part.

Come on in, the water's lovely.

I took two months off last year (accumulated vacation that I had not taken for a number years) and I genuinely felt energised.  Compare that to how I feel working which although challenging / interesting leaves me too tired at weekends to do anything but some fairly basic exercise (walk the dog etc).

I come from a background where working beyond the contracted hours is the norm rather than the exception and although we are paid very well for that, its very much the case that actually no amount of money can compensate for the lost time.  That's probably the part that I find the most unpalatable (and in fact since i came back from my extended vacation I've generally made a point of leaving the office around 6:30 in the evening).

I think what you say therefore is absolutely spot on.

ender

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2015, 05:57:54 PM »
It's possible that you don't quite realise that your work takes up not just a lot of your time but also a lot of your energy.  And not just your physical energy but your mental and emotional energy as well.  Once you are liberated from work and reclaim this energy for yourself whole new horizons of thought and action open up.  You will find, after a period of decompression, that not working is entirely different from being on holiday.

With the extra time and energy you will have, it will no longer be so important to you to spend money on quick and easy solutions, so you may well find that some of your more extravagant expenditures naturally tone themselves down without any effort on your part.

Come on in, the water's lovely.

This is basically why ER is so appealing to me.

I'm only in my late 20s and I.... feel this happening to me.


dungoofed

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2015, 06:57:24 PM »
Could you perhaps set yourself the challenge of hustling up enough income to fund those holidays and cars? Your basic survival income still comes from your war chest. Could be a "two birds, one stone" situation, keeping active and also getting your holidays/cars.

Cap_Scarlet

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2015, 03:10:46 AM »
Could you perhaps set yourself the challenge of hustling up enough income to fund those holidays and cars? Your basic survival income still comes from your war chest. Could be a "two birds, one stone" situation, keeping active and also getting your holidays/cars.

I think it could but honestly I'm not sure and that makes cutting the umbelical cord a more difficult decision.

However I suspect I will go down the road of asking for what I want (i.e. a substantial and life change adjustment to my working conditions).


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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2015, 07:13:59 AM »
How in the world is that much money NOT "FU" money?

You're set in about 10 years and until then you could pull over 50k euros/year at a 4% SWR. If you wanted to spend more and accept a dwindling stash for 10 years, you could. You could spend over 100k euros/year if you earned 0% on your stash, which is extremely unlikely to happen.

I get the other psychological issues with RE (I struggle with those as well), but your stash should not be one of them in this case.

DoubleDown

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2015, 10:42:02 AM »
Cap Scarlet,

Every day you stay on the job is one day less of freedom that you will have in your life.  You won't be able to "add that day back" later on.  Life is finite.  And that is non-negotiable.  Free yourself now.

And do not worry about being bored in retirement.  I tell you from personal experience, as long as you stay curious and alert, it will not happen.  You will, in fact, find yourself with more things you want to do than time to do them in.  Which is another reason to get job-free as soon as possible.

Good luck!

+1

I think missing from the analysis is the opportunity cost of not leaving (i.e., the unknown but finite number of days left mentioned above). If you died tomorrow, would you be satisfied that you accomplished everything in your life you wanted, or spent as many of them as you could in a way completely of your own choosing? Even if I had no large ambitions to change or travel the world in ER, I'd rather die having spent my last day reading the morning paper with a cup of coffee, going for walk and then taking a nap, rather than dying at my desk among coworkers.

Unless you would keep going to work exactly as you are now but free of charge, it's time to leave and take advantage of all the work you've done to earn that retirement.

Retired To Win

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2015, 06:40:55 PM »
I have an almost identical situation and I continue to work.  One reason is my kids are in school so not having a job won't give me much more freedom.   And I basically like my job and it doesn't really have any negatives...

I would have thought that being job-free would either give you more time with your kids, or allow you to pursue personal interests since your kids are in school most of the day.  Or both.

Also, I too have had jobs where I really liked the work.  Granted.  But I never had a job that had NO negatives.  That would mean no commuting hassle... no unreasonable supervision ever... no pointless meetings, trips and reports... all just blissfully satisfying work.  Nope.  Not even when I was a coral reef field researcher could I say that.

former player

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2015, 11:45:46 AM »
coral reef field researcher
Reminds me of the grad student I once met who was doing the field work for his thesis on "Beach sands of the Mediterranean".

retired?

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2015, 04:12:13 PM »
I think you are "pretty much all set" as well.  If you were bare bones FI (as one poster described themselves), I might caution you.

I am not working now and I think I am more than bare bones FI.  But, I am not so comfortably FI that I can fill my free time truly as I choose since it would cost too much (i.e. travel).  I'll probably go back to work ..... looking for a less than year-round role for the same reasons as you.

If the things you would like to spend your time doing won't break you, then I'd choose for the freedom.

ozzage

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2015, 04:38:46 AM »
Even if I had no large ambitions to change or travel the world in ER, I'd rather die having spent my last day reading the morning paper with a cup of coffee, going for walk and then taking a nap, rather than dying at my desk among coworkers.

Oh yes.

biscuitwhomper

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Re: Holding the gun but not pulling the trigger
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2015, 05:23:49 AM »
This is a great subject.

My FIRE lasted 6 months.   I am back at a stressful job for a few more years as of this January.

Why?

I did not do a good job separating on how much I *could* live on and how much I *wanted* to live on.     I realized that certain things about me are non-negotiable - and one of those things is boating in the Pacific Northwest.    My boat is very modest, but boats are never cheap.    I think it is a good exercise to really figure this out before you make your decision.    It is OK to admit that certain money-draining activities may be an important part of your life.

Is this a bit of a gamble?  Absolutely.  I think my odds are decent, though.

A little bit of a contrarian opinion, I know.   



« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 05:26:23 AM by biscuitwhomper »