Author Topic: Hello! And changing money mindsets.  (Read 2536 times)

GoodMonikersAllTaken

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Hello! And changing money mindsets.
« on: June 04, 2023, 08:08:40 AM »
Hi, everyone.

Summary: I am looking for suggestions to address guilt about wanting money so I can manage my finances more effectively.

Long version: I've been making incremental progress in educating myself about personal finance but I'm struggling. I'm decently good at math until dollar signs are involved. It's a mental/emotional block about money. Caring about money has always been presented in ways that seem contrary to my values. Greed, environmental destruction, exploiting others, etc. are obvious examples. But I also grew up around lots of people who worked a ton in lucrative jobs that they didn't seem to like or derive much personal fulfillment from, even if there was nothing ethically troubling about those jobs. I erroneously imagined that thinking about money would mean that I would get trapped chasing it.

Oops! I clearly couldn't have been more wrong.

My saving grace is that my parents gave me a huge head start in life (no student loans, have me some investments, et very much cetera). My other saving grace is that my not caring about money has extended to not caring enough to spend it aggressively.

What I am thinking about most right now is how I can change my thinking/emotions about money. I'm realizing that what I most want is to not be owned by a job. So, uh, I want and need money! But it feels really slimy to me to say that even though I believe intellectually that it is appropriate to want financial security. This has been compounded by working in human services where the party line is that we aren't in it for the money. (To which bleary-eyed human services workers across the globe reply "what money?")


Have any of you dealt with this? How have you overcome it? Any good resources?

So far I am reading lots of financial blogs and watching videos for examples of people who care about money but aren't ruled by it. I'm also trying to take small, concrete steps to make progress and teach my brain that I can do this without losing  what is important to me.

Other ideas I have are finding offline community.

I do have other questions about planning with a moderate income, putting together a learning plan, helping aging parents, and so on. But I think this is the key piece that I keep skipping over that's stalling my learning.

Thanks for any and all ideas. I am looking forward to learning from this community.

namasteyall

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Re: Hello! And changing money mindsets.
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2023, 11:55:08 AM »
Try reading Louise Hay on attitude to money. May help!

AMandM

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Re: Hello! And changing money mindsets.
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2023, 12:53:45 PM »
To me, the key is to understand that money is a tool. It's the most versatile tool available. It can be used to accomplish many different tasks: provide shelter, food, and education; improve or safeguard health; keep danger of various kinds at bay; increase physical and intellectual pleasures; alleviate others' suffering; and, of course, acquire stuff.

It's also the most misunderstood tool. Many people think (or act as though they think) that the only task money can accomplish is to acquire stuff, so to them money is just a temporary placeholder for stuff. In that view, "caring about money" equals wanting more stuff. And since "more stuff" is not exactly a noble goal, caring about money seems shallow. It makes sense to feel guilty in this context.

But you can break the money-stuff connection if you can be clear about the actual tasks you want this tool to accomplish. Then, if you are satisfied that they are worthy tasks, hopefully that can help reduce your guilt.

GoodMonikersAllTaken

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Re: Hello! And changing money mindsets.
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2023, 01:53:15 PM »
Thank you for the recommendation, namasteyall.

AMandM, this is a brilliant comment. You've identified the key thought distortion that has been holding me back. Thank you.

ender

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Re: Hello! And changing money mindsets.
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2023, 02:00:10 PM »
We give away a decent amount -- last year we gave away close to 50% as much as we spent.

Do I slightly miss it? Yeah. I'd like to have that money vs giving it away.

But at the end of the day it's a good way for me to check myself from being too greedy.

More importantly though, it's a way to serve people who are far less fortunate that we are.

Ron Scott

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Re: Hello! And changing money mindsets.
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2023, 02:06:09 PM »
I think just by writing that post you are onto yourself and closer to the freedom you seek than you might think.

Money has no real value in itself. It is either pieces of paper or numbers in the ether. The value of money lies in the flexibility and options it can provide you and your family in your real lives.

Having money does not make you greedy, an environmental terrorist, or an exploiter of others. That’s silly. How you use it is what counts.

Be free, go forth, and earn. Pay your kids tuitions, give to the poor, and buy yourself a Tesla!


SunnyDays

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Re: Hello! And changing money mindsets.
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2023, 06:49:01 PM »
If you haven't already, I suggest that you read Your Money or Your Life.  It discusses the various meanings people attach to money, how to identify what your values truly are, and the real meaning of "money" and "work."  It will transform your mindset.

lutorm

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Re: Hello! And changing money mindsets.
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2023, 11:50:06 AM »
I think there are two kinds of people who think about money all the time: the ones that don't have any, for whom it's a survival skill, and the "Trumps", whose self-worth is wrapped up in it.

You wouldn't ask someone who was working three jobs to put food on the table why they are chasing money. Chasing money only becomes greed when you want more than you need. And I don't think working to make and save money aggressively for a short time so that you can maintain freedom and a moderate lifestyle for the rest of your life is any more greedy than working your whole life to do it. It's just more optimized.

I think the Stoic advice is applicable: it's fine to enjoy life, as long as you don't cling to it.

FireLane

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Re: Hello! And changing money mindsets.
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2023, 07:25:34 AM »
It's perfectly normal and healthy to distrust the desire for more money. In fact, I'd say it's a sign that you're a good person.

Most people who want to accumulate large amounts of money have one of two motives: excessive consumption for themselves, or the power it gives them over others. One of those impulses is wrecking the planet, and the other gives rise to oppression and exploitation of the poor. Those are both selfish and destructive motives, so it's right to be suspicious of them.

But the desire for money doesn't have to lead down an evil road. The reframe I suggest is this: Financial security is worth pursuing because it gives you the freedom to live by your own values.

If you're not financially independent, you have to earn a salary to survive. That means you have little choice about taking whatever job you can get. In a capitalist society, many of those jobs are harmful, either personally or collectively.

You might have to work in an industry that's making the world worse (tobacco, guns, fast food, fossil fuels). Or you might feel pressure to act in unethical ways, to lie or cheat or cut corners or find loopholes in the law, if your boss demands it. Or you might have to sacrifice pursuits that matter to you, like time with loved ones or hobbies or your own health, because your job takes priority over everything else.

When you have financial independence, those concerns disappear. You can continue to work if you want, if your job fulfills you and gives your life purpose, but you also have the luxury of turning down work that doesn't align with your values. You can be the voice of reason, pushing back against bad ideas or unethical demands. You can give your job as much time and energy as you want to give, but no more.

Or, of course, you can quit paid work entirely and do what's most meaningful to you. You can volunteer for worthy but underfunded nonprofits. You can spend more time raising kids or caring for aging parents. You can lobby your elected officials about issues you care about. You can write novels or make art or travel.

Either way, financial independence gives you the choice to do what matters. It's not money you're truly seeking, but freedom. That's always a worthwhile goal.

This older MMM article on the Position of Strength is a good read:
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/11/11/get-rich-with-the-position-of-strength/

ChpBstrd

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Re: Hello! And changing money mindsets.
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2023, 08:50:25 AM »
Karl Marx said that politics is the question of who works for the benefit of whom. In his era, it was a downtrodden serf class working for the benefit of the nobility and clergy. Our era upends this logic though, with people working for what they think is their own benefit.

The folks spending their lives toiling in jobs they hate are doing so because they believe fancy houses and cars and cell phones will make them happy. They continue doing this, year after year, despite all the evidence they are not becoming happy. They consume hours per day of media and social media propaganda reminding them that more stuff will make them happy, and framing life as a competition to have the nicest stuff. The ads and sitcom lifestyles motivate them to go out and hustle more money each day. This propaganda-work motivation cycle is not all that different than communism, except it is more effective in persuading people to work harder than they otherwise would. It is more effective because it tricks people into believing self-benefit is the acquisition of stuff, when in fact a human needs a bit more variety than that to have a good life.

That said, money is a claim on other people's future labor. It is the essence of having other people work for the benefit of you. It may seem wrong to seek control over other people in this way and to become a parasitic non-contributor, but keep in mind that somebody has to do the work required to support a high quality of life. Somebody has to grow the food, drive the truck, run the stores, account for everything, dig the ditches, manufacture the water pipes, make the shoes, pave the roads, treat the sick, etc. Money keeps this cycle of work going, and to a large extent much of the work is done because people want the work outputs of other people (i.e. the stuff). It is neither good nor bad, it is simply the way things evolved to incentivize the work that is necessary to produce our lifestyles. The miserable workaholics are the ones who believe in the system's propaganda a bit too deeply, and who cannot imagine questioning the system's axioms.

What you're contemplating is not to become a workaholic who drives a leased SUV, lives in a McMansion, subscribes to 5 streaming services, and gets the newest iPhone every year while hating their life. You're contemplating hacking the system by consuming a lot less than you produce, and buying investments instead of stuff. Eventually, you hope to purchase your autonomy and freedom by having investments earn enough to support your cost of living (Note the parallels with escaping serfdom. Some things never change.).

But in addition to this opportunity to escape working all your life, there is a threat. In the culture you live in, almost nobody is willing to work for the benefit of others without money. Those without money go without good quality foods or medicines that could save their lives. Those without money are herded into places where it is too dangerous to walk down the street or drink the tap water. Ours is a cruel culture where elderly people are made homeless because they cannot work to pay rent, and millions of children go to school each day hungry. Those who fail to work will suffer.

You will grow old some day, and be unable to work. This culture will treat you quite badly if you haven't amassed some money by that time, to purchase the labor of people in the future when you cannot do the labor yourself. In addition, you have parents, and may have kids. You and everyone you love may face the risk of an early disability or a large financial loss, such as a house fire, lawsuit, or theft. If that happens and you have no money to spend, this culture will literally leave you to die. Ask the people who can't afford insulin. Maybe things ought to be different, but what ought to be won't matter when it's winter someday and the energy bill is due.

Seen in this light, you don't owe this culture anything. Your only reasonable option is to earn and invest money while you can, while rejecting the propaganda about stuff=happiness. That's the only outcome which allows you to have your needs taken care of when you're too old to work or to take care of the needs of others who hit their own pitfalls. Having money gives you the quasi-political power to direct other people's work toward the benefit of people who matter to you, including yourself. It keeps you from becoming another desperate person drawing down the very limited reserves of charity to the detriment of the other charity recipients.

Money and stuff are both tools, and both are often misused. If you have negative attitudes about money, maybe consider whether you have a too positive attitude about stuff. Those people rumbling up and down the street going to jobs they hate in fancy SUVs are sacrificing their actual happiness for the sake of a symbol of happiness sold to them through propaganda. The people in the drive-thru are signing themselves up to suffer the pains of heart disease because they are told it's a great deal. The people spraying chemicals on their manicured lawns will know the suffering of cancer someday. The people who are fashionable today will spend the last 20 years of their lives in ratty clothes, worried about running out of money because they didn't save.

To some extent, it is the stuff we covet in excess of our needs which causes the suffering. If everyone lived like a Mustachian, there would be no need to worry about having enough money, we'd live longer, healthier lives, and we'd be a lot less interested in sacrificing family, friendships, time, and contentment for the sake of "trading up" houses/cars/clothes/jewelry/toys. We can't save the deep believers, but we can extricate ourselves from the trap they're in.

BicycleB

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Re: Hello! And changing money mindsets.
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2023, 12:54:33 PM »
Hi, @GoodMonikersAllTaken. You already got the key answer, and @ChpBstrd amplified on it quite deeply. Welcome to the forum, good luck in your quests, and keep us posted!

Additional thoughts:

1. Literally, money is a medium of exchange. People do things for each other, and for some of those things, it's super helpful to a medium of exchange so that we don't have to just barter. It's only the misuse part that makes it so confusing.

2. Don't blame yourself for feeling bad. One of the ways people establish social control is through making other people feel bad. This spreads too far and often infects people unnecessarily, or unfairly. I think your case is one of those. Congrats on seeking to free of this. Keep up the good fight. We're with you.

3. Money can be a store of value, which you gain in return for your labor one day, and use to receive the fruits of others' labor on another day. Human labor is worthy of respect and money can be viewed as simply storing that respect. This is my personal view, and I think a better one than society's. So it's not only a medium of exchange, it's a way of balancing out effort over time, and implicitly respecting the labor of others. As previous posters pointed out, this could eventually let you "earn" today to cover the expenses of your future, such as old age. This is great stuff!

4. Money isn't perfect for the "store of value" purpose in 3, because usually, it declines in value over time (this is called inflation). But there exist investments such as stocks and bonds in which you lend your money to someone who will use it productively, and in return, you usually get more money back than you put in. Remember that this can be done positively - an investment buys tools, which are used to increase human productivity; part of the resulting profit goes to employees, and part to you for your investment role. The increased return on investment means you can, potentially, labor for part of your life and fairly legitimately live on the investment returns forever after.

5. Yes what I wrote is an ideal case, muddied in real life by sneaky ways that people use your investment. Ethically there's a mixture of good and the bad in the mechanism of corporate investment. But in my humble opinion the principles in 4 are dominant enough that you can use them in good conscience. I supplement that with some donations and do-gooding on the side, but don't let moral qualms stop you from earning or investing. The system is good enough to use and you yourself can probably also make it a little bit better over time. For now, just take one step and the next step. That's how you respect your own labor! Forward, my friend. :)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2023, 01:00:15 PM by BicycleB »

GoodMonikersAllTaken

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Re: Hello! And changing money mindsets.
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2023, 06:01:38 AM »
WOW. Thank you everyone for your thoughtful, thought-provoking perspectives. I will revisit this thread often, I think. I may say more later but right now I am reflecting.

I am so glad to have found this group.


Finances_With_Purpose

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Re: Hello! And changing money mindsets.
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2023, 03:29:10 PM »
Money is a tool, but it's not what you want.  You want the things it buys you: not having a job, or having a different job, more time for kids - whatever it is.  You named some. 

I have two tips here.  First, and hardest: unpack whatever childhood beliefs about money you have learned that make you view wanting money as being greedy.  Poor people want money too: are they greedy?  It doesn't make logical sense - life isn't that straightforward - but it's something that you have learned, probably as a kid, and that learning goes deep.  Try to learn what motivates it: e.g., how did your parents behave with money, and what did they tell you?  (This is one area where Ramit Sethi is pretty good, including his Netflix series.) 

Second, here's another piece of advice that's more helpful - and also easier: You named a bunch of things you need money to get: List those things out.  Then tally up how much they would cost you today.  Account for inflation, and estimate what you'll need for them.

You no longer want money, you want those things.  So name those things, and the money is just a way to get there. 

Those goals aren't greedy, and you don't want money for money's sake.  So focus less on the money than the actual goals.  You're buying X% of some goal you have. 

Here's one way that I do this myself: I made a spreadsheet with a ratio.  That ratio tells me how close I am - what % I am - towards FI.  Only money moves that ratio, but it's not about the money, it's about getting to that end result. 

It's all about getting to FI, not about getting to a pile of cash, and we have made all kinds of life choices along the way that have made FI harder to get to, because life isn't all about money: e.g., having three kids, living in a HCOL area, taking a less-than-top-earning job, and so on.  FI is just another one of those things, and it's one that we measure to assess our progress towards, but it isn't our end-all, be-all goal in life either.  (I would probably be retired by now or soon afterwards had I not made a bunch of those choices, and many of my friends/cohort are in fact FI and retired by now in part because they did so, even at a far younger age than normal.)