High-paying trade jobs are desperate for workers

[FireLane]

Here's a story that I bet Mr. Money Mustache would have a lot to say about:

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/25/605092520/high-paying-trade-jobs-sit-empty-while-high-school-grads-line-up-for-university

The gist of it is that college tuition and student-loan debt keeps rising, while the expected payoff of a college degree is less than it used to be because there's a glut of competition. Meanwhile, skilled trade jobs that pay well and have good benefits are going begging for workers:

Seventy-percent of construction companies nationwide are having trouble finding qualified workers, according to the Associated General Contractors of America; in Washington, the proportion is 80 percent.

There are already more trade jobs like carpentry, electrical, plumbing, sheet-metal work and pipe-fitting than Washingtonians to fill them, the state auditor reports. Many pay more than the state's average annual wage of $54,000.

One problem is that a lot of parents discourage their kids from blue-collar work, thinking it's a low-status job. But the pay and benefits are solid, especially since you can start work with little or no debt after a short technical education:

Morgan, who is 20, is already working on a job site when he isn't at the Pacific Northwest Ironworkers shop. He gets benefits, including a pension, from employers at the job sites where he is training. And he is earning $28.36 an hour, or more than $50,000 a year, which is almost certain to steadily increase.

Jessica Bruce followed that path, enrolling in community college after high school for one main reason: because she was recruited to play fast-pitch softball. "I was still trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life," she said.

Now, she's an apprentice ironworker, making $32.42 an hour, or more than $60,000 a year, while continuing her training. At 5-foot-2, "I can run with the big boys," she said, laughing.

I don't think it's classist to say that not everyone should go to a four-year college. Plenty of people don't graduate, and it'd be better to go into the trades than to be saddled with debt and have no degree to show for it. Millions more are paying absurd amounts of money for underwater basketweaving-type degrees that have no connection to a career.

On the other hand, I'd imagine that even if these trade jobs pay well, they're a lot harder on your body than white-collar work. Carpentry or roofing may be fun to do as a hobby, but will you still want to be climbing on scaffolding or hauling heavy tools around when you're in your 50s, with no backup plan?

It's great that these workers can start earning early with no college debt, but if they don't have Mustachian saving habits, it's a choice they might regret later in life. If they hear about the FIRE path early, they might do very well for themselves.

[Lyngi]

YEAH!!  My brother in law teaches construction to high school kids.  He was telling me that companies are taking his students out to dinner- wooing them like sports stars.  Sign on bonuses, tuition reimbursement, company trucks.  I asked him about how they feel about potential female employees.  (Knowing, of course, that they can't overtly discriminate against females)  I was asking for my daughter.  He said they LOVE to brag about their female employees.  There are HVAC companies and welding companies that can't find anyone!!   

[use2betrix]

I started in the trades and have worked my way into management in the industry. Just have an associates degree. I’m 30 and have had several years over $200k. I’ve already made about $115k this year.

I work a ton though. I’ve worked primarily 70-80 hr weeks the last 5 months (slowest week was 68 hrs)

I also work as a contractor. So you won’t make this money with a permanent job where you’re home every night. I live full time on the road. I’ve been in an Airbnb since December. My wife travels with me. When a project finishes, you’re typically unemployed. I’ve lived in 14 cities in 8 states over the last decade.

Most contract  craft out in the field in my lifestyle can make around 150k a year working 60ish hrs a week. Most people can’t handle working in sub freezing temps outside 60 hrs a week, or at 90-100+ degrees wearing full PPE clothing.

For even a modest lifestyle though, making $60k or so in the trades in a permanent local job wouldn’t be too hard. I probably wouldn’t leave the road for less than $150k right now, but again, I’m very much an outlier.

[MMMarbleheader]

Unfortunately the guys I work with in the trades are the worst people with money. 2 or 3 trips to dunks a day, lunch from the roach coach, cigs, dip, tattoos, motorcycles, boats, quads, etc.

It's great they make the money they do but man do they spend it. Don't get me wrong, white collar people do too but this seems more of a self destructive way.

[Cassie]

The trades can be a great option but many take a large toll on your body such as construction. I worked in a state program to help people with disabilities return to work. Many were injured in their 30’s and most were done by 50.  Now machinists, etc tended to not have bad physical issues.

[Yankuba]

Supposedly trucking companies are desperate for drivers. Why anyone would want to become a trucker when the autonomous trucks are so near...

[sol]

Part of the hesitation may be the limited upward mobility.  It's hard to find a lawyer or a doctor with ten years of experience making less than 100k/year.  Carpenters and plumbers do well, but they don't ALL crack six figures in short order.

Meanwhile MBAs and finance majors from good schools stand a decent chance of making $300-500k in just a few years, and tradesman rarely reach that high without starting their own businesses.

[use2betrix]

Unfortunately the guys I work with in the trades are the worst people with money. 2 or 3 trips to dunks a day, lunch from the roach coach, cigs, dip, tattoos, motorcycles, boats, quads, etc.

It's great they make the money they do but man do they spend it. Don't get me wrong, white collar people do too but this seems more of a self destructive way.

This is a reflection of the people that the industry attracts, has nothing to do with the industry itself.

[Jrr85]

Part of the hesitation may be the limited upward mobility.  It's hard to find a lawyer or a doctor with ten years of experience making less than 100k/year.  Carpenters and plumbers do well, but they don't ALL crack six figures in short order.

Meanwhile MBAs and finance majors from good schools stand a decent chance of making $300-500k in just a few years, and tradesman rarely reach that high without starting their own businesses.

Thet MBAs and finance majors that stand a decent chance of making $300-$500k in just a few years aren't from good schools.  They are from the elite schools and an extremelyh small sector of those people going to college.  I'm not even sure it's accurate to say thosse MBAs and finance majors stand a decent chance of making $300-500k in a few years, but maybe I am underestimating what they do.   

[MMMarbleheader]

Part of the hesitation may be the limited upward mobility.  It's hard to find a lawyer or a doctor with ten years of experience making less than 100k/year.  Carpenters and plumbers do well, but they don't ALL crack six figures in short order.

Meanwhile MBAs and finance majors from good schools stand a decent chance of making $300-500k in just a few years, and tradesman rarely reach that high without starting their own businesses.

Trades do max out quick with salary. Most guys become journeyman pretty quickly and after that unless you want to become a foreman you will make as much as the 50 year old next to you.

[FIREin2018]

Union trade companies are usually better than non-union trade companies in terms of pay and benefits.
in DC area, the top union trades (hvac/electrician/steamfitters/elevators) make about $45/hr ($90k/yr) + overtime.
once you graduate the apprenticeship, everybody is a journeyman making $45/hr.

Downside:
- can be hard on your body.
climbing up and down ladders daily for decades is hard on your knees.
lifting heavy objects is hard on your back and shoulders.

- Working in freezing temps in the winter and 90F or hotter temps in the summer

- port-a-johns for bathrooms

[use2betrix]

Part of the hesitation may be the limited upward mobility.  It's hard to find a lawyer or a doctor with ten years of experience making less than 100k/year.  Carpenters and plumbers do well, but they don't ALL crack six figures in short order.

Meanwhile MBAs and finance majors from good schools stand a decent chance of making $300-500k in just a few years, and tradesman rarely reach that high without starting their own businesses.

Trades do max out quick with salary. Most guys become journeyman pretty quickly and after that unless you want to become a foreman you will make as much as the 50 year old next to you.

Part of the hesitation may be the limited upward mobility.  It's hard to find a lawyer or a doctor with ten years of experience making less than 100k/year.  Carpenters and plumbers do well, but they don't ALL crack six figures in short order.

Meanwhile MBAs and finance majors from good schools stand a decent chance of making $300-500k in just a few years, and tradesman rarely reach that high without starting their own businesses.

Trades do max out quick with salary. Most guys become journeyman pretty quickly and after that unless you want to become a foreman you will make as much as the 50 year old next to you.

Yes they do - and for contractors that max is pretty easily around 150k a year for guys without a ton of experience. Most decent  contract welders make a bare minimum of 35-45/hr. Say $40/hr average. 60 hrs/wk + 100/day per diem (tax free) and at 50 weeks that’s 170k/yr.

I’ve seen jobs where there are rig welders making 50-55/hr, 120/day per diem, and another 12/hr for their rig. Sometimes projects get behind and they go to 7/12’s (84 hrs/wk) at time and a half, that’s a good chunk.

Management wise, guys can make 50-100/hr. Highest I’ve seen is 120/hr. Highest I’ve made is 75/hr (plus per diem). Sure - it’s not 500k, but also not bad for a 28 year old with an associates degree.

There’s countless people on this forum with advanced degrees. I wonder how many made over 200k/yr before turning 30?

[afox]

I dont think that the purpose of a college education should be to solely to acquire job skills.  Just look at real estate agents, the few of them that went to college certainly aren't using what they learned in college to find new clients.  I dont see why someone with a college education should not be open to taking a trade job that pays more than their "white collar job".  In essence this is what "landlords" and "real estate investors" do.  With real estate you give up your profession so that you can unclog toilets, post craiglist ads, and deposit checks, u dont need to go to college for that. 

Despite whether you use what you learn in college to make money, there is a lot of value in going to college to learn basic life skills like how to think critically, read & write, basic math, languages, the sciences, etc. 

Also, short term high pay trade jobs are perfect for FIRE'ees looking to FIRE even earlier.  As a FIREee with some basic trade skills you can capitalize on periods of time with shortages of workers to temporarily work at a higher wage and with better working conditions.  For example over a period of 20 years from age 45-65 there might be 3 or 4 time periods where employers are absolutely desperate and willing to hire anyone and pay them more than they deserve.  A smart FIREe would choose to work for short periods of time during those times of shortage to stretch their savings. 

[bluecollarmusician]

Part of the hesitation may be the limited upward mobility.  It's hard to find a lawyer or a doctor with ten years of experience making less than 100k/year.  Carpenters and plumbers do well, but they don't ALL crack six figures in short order.

Meanwhile MBAs and finance majors from good schools stand a decent chance of making $300-500k in just a few years, and tradesman rarely reach that high without starting their own businesses.

Trades do max out quick with salary. Most guys become journeyman pretty quickly and after that unless you want to become a foreman you will make as much as the 50 year old next to you.

Part of the hesitation may be the limited upward mobility.  It's hard to find a lawyer or a doctor with ten years of experience making less than 100k/year.  Carpenters and plumbers do well, but they don't ALL crack six figures in short order.

Meanwhile MBAs and finance majors from good schools stand a decent chance of making $300-500k in just a few years, and tradesman rarely reach that high without starting their own businesses.

Trades do max out quick with salary. Most guys become journeyman pretty quickly and after that unless you want to become a foreman you will make as much as the 50 year old next to you.

Yes they do - and for contractors that max is pretty easily around 150k a year for guys without a ton of experience. Most decent  contract welders make a bare minimum of 35-45/hr. Say $40/hr average. 60 hrs/wk + 100/day per diem (tax free) and at 50 weeks that’s 170k/yr.

I’ve seen jobs where there are rig welders making 50-55/hr, 120/day per diem, and another 12/hr for their rig. Sometimes projects get behind and they go to 7/12’s (84 hrs/wk) at time and a half, that’s a good chunk.

Management wise, guys can make 50-100/hr. Highest I’ve seen is 120/hr. Highest I’ve made is 75/hr (plus per diem). Sure - it’s not 500k, but also not bad for a 28 year old with an associates degree.

There’s countless people on this forum with advanced degrees. I wonder how many made over 200k/yr before turning 30?

Not to mention the $$ not spent on student loans, or the years missed working- 4 years working at 50k a year and 100k in student loan debt over 4 years starts you off 300k ahead of the college graduate. 

[Yankuba]

Part of the hesitation may be the limited upward mobility.  It's hard to find a lawyer or a doctor with ten years of experience making less than 100k/year.  Carpenters and plumbers do well, but they don't ALL crack six figures in short order.

Meanwhile MBAs and finance majors from good schools stand a decent chance of making $300-500k in just a few years, and tradesman rarely reach that high without starting their own businesses.

Trades do max out quick with salary. Most guys become journeyman pretty quickly and after that unless you want to become a foreman you will make as much as the 50 year old next to you.

Part of the hesitation may be the limited upward mobility.  It's hard to find a lawyer or a doctor with ten years of experience making less than 100k/year.  Carpenters and plumbers do well, but they don't ALL crack six figures in short order.

Meanwhile MBAs and finance majors from good schools stand a decent chance of making $300-500k in just a few years, and tradesman rarely reach that high without starting their own businesses.

Trades do max out quick with salary. Most guys become journeyman pretty quickly and after that unless you want to become a foreman you will make as much as the 50 year old next to you.

Yes they do - and for contractors that max is pretty easily around 150k a year for guys without a ton of experience. Most decent  contract welders make a bare minimum of 35-45/hr. Say $40/hr average. 60 hrs/wk + 100/day per diem (tax free) and at 50 weeks that’s 170k/yr.

I’ve seen jobs where there are rig welders making 50-55/hr, 120/day per diem, and another 12/hr for their rig. Sometimes projects get behind and they go to 7/12’s (84 hrs/wk) at time and a half, that’s a good chunk.

Management wise, guys can make 50-100/hr. Highest I’ve seen is 120/hr. Highest I’ve made is 75/hr (plus per diem). Sure - it’s not 500k, but also not bad for a 28 year old with an associates degree.

There’s countless people on this forum with advanced degrees. I wonder how many made over 200k/yr before turning 30?

NYT ran a story about one of the big projects in NYC and how some workers are getting $400/hour by working weekend overtime in rainy conditions.

[FIREin2018]

Trades do max out quick with salary. Most guys become journeyman pretty quickly and after that unless you want to become a foreman you will make as much as the 50 year old next to you.

Yes they do - and for contractors that max is pretty easily around 150k a year for guys without a ton of experience. Most decent  contract welders make a bare minimum of 35-45/hr. Say $40/hr average. 60 hrs/wk + 100/day per diem (tax free) and at 50 weeks that’s 170k/yr.

I’ve seen jobs where there are rig welders making 50-55/hr, 120/day per diem, and another 12/hr for their rig. Sometimes projects get behind and they go to 7/12’s (84 hrs/wk) at time and a half, that’s a good chunk.

Management wise, guys can make 50-100/hr. Highest I’ve seen is 120/hr. Highest I’ve made is 75/hr (plus per diem). Sure - it’s not 500k, but also not bad for a 28 year old with an associates degree.

There’s countless people on this forum with advanced degrees. I wonder how many made over 200k/yr before turning 30?

7 x 12 is not for everyone.

in IT, we did 24hr coverage for 2 months. (two shifts of 7days x 12hrs.)
we were paid straight time for all the hrs.
while the paychecks were good, after the 1st month i looked forward to the overtime ending. (and i'm single, no kids)
heck, even if they offered time and half for a 3rd month of 7x12, i probably would have said no.

and i was working in a building with a/c, running water, and indoor bathrooms.
Trades people dont usually have those things

[J Boogie]

It's odd how this narrative exists alongside the strange upward trend in deaths of despair among mostly rural blue collar middle aged white men.

The simple explanation would be that these white men grew used to a high quality of living by simply learning a skill that was valuable when they started their career, and now that the skill is no longer as valuable, they are unhappy and do not have the community support that non-whites are more likely to have to cope with their downward trajectory.

There is a certain mentality in the US to want "land" which can be a codeword for "no neighbors". It's nice to enjoy nature but the way I've heard some people explain their desire for land has little do with nature.

Anyways, I think there can be a downside to focusing on a certain skill that X employer wants if there is a chance you'll be obsolete in 5 years time. But many trades are staples of the workforce that will always be needed.

[Hedge_87]

I work in the electric power and distribution industry.

We make a great wage especially for our LCOL area. I have transitioned a little farther away from the manual work side of this but still get to work with my tools at least a couple times a week. We do end up in all sorts of weather from blizzards to heat waves and that can be kind of rough. We also get to be outside moving around on days like today when its 75 degrees and sunny instead of stuck in a cube slowly going insane. On the "being hard on your body" thing I do agree, however tools are getting better and do more of the physical work all the time. Of course sitting behind a desk all day has never caused any health problems (mental or physical) right.

One side note. I am working towards a bachelors degree now after 10 years of apprenticeships and different certifications however it is 100% employer paid.

[Channel-Z]

My station covered a showcase this week that is trying to get students interested in trades. That particular day they were showing off careers to kids from alternative schools. One kid said he was interested because it looked like an easy job (rude awakening ahead).

[use2betrix]

Another good thing that is appealing (to me) is with the contracting part, once I am to a certain point financially, I can go and just work contract positions a few months a year if I want while the stache grows. Go work a bunch of hours, take home $5k/wk for a couple months, and you’ve got enough to live off for a year. Personally, I’d prefer to work 70 hrs a week for 3 months than work 40 hrs a week for 11 months.

I should also add - while they are “contract” positions, they still typically include excellent benefits, a 401k, etc.

[the_fixer]

I think the trades are a great way to go for many people and if they were provided some guidance on financial management they could be far ahead of a large majority of people that go and get a degree and have huge student loans.

For example the company I work for (non union) starts new people with no experience at $25 per hour (think someone that just came out of high school). They receive a company vehicle that they can use to commute to and from work, great free health benefits, new boots and work clothes when needed, 401k and a pension.

After about a year of experience they will be at around $40 per hour, then $48 after about 3 years.

If they move into a foreman position then they are looking at $59 per hour.

They also get paid OT at double time.

Most are located in very low cost of living areas.

Most of the workers have typical spending as far as I can tell, spending money on trucks, cars, toys, vacations and things that are standard for normal consumers.

I am not in the trades at the company, I am considered in the professional services and most of the people I work with get paid less than the trades and have degrees that they are still paying for.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Imma]

There is one aspect that I haven't seen anyone mention yet: construction is a boom-and-bust industry. It's is extremely vulnerable to economic volatily.

I worked in an admin position in a road / sewage construction company while in college parttime. The guys who did the manual labour worked extremely hard, were well paid for what they did, started to earn money at a young age so were able to start a family and buy a house around the age of 25. Sounds good. BUT. They were doing physically very heavy work that few are able to do after the age of 50/55. You start earning money at 18, but once you're about 25 you've reached your full earning potential and you're not going to make more unless you take up foreman responsibilities or move up into the office (and get a degree or at least do some courses). You're expected to work a lot of hours and in this line of work you can't go parttime. You might be away from your family from Monday to Friday, staying in a cheap hotel with your coworkers. Many of them start to drink after work out of of boredom and loneliness.

Where I live the housing market is currently booming and many companies have 6-9 month waiting lists. A friend of mine is builing a new house on a plot he's owned for 1,5 years. He was supposed to be able to move into after the summer, but they've only just started building and it won't be finished until this time next year. You just can't find anyone to do the building.

But the reason for this huge lack of skilled tradespeople is because so many companies went bankrupt during the Great Recession (the company I worked for did, too) and it was extremely difficult to find a job in any construction related industry for a couple of years. High school graduates chose other careers and young people in the industry with only a few years of experience moved into a different field where they are now settled. I see young people going into the trades right now, but there are a lot less people aged 25-35 because so many of them lost their jobs and didn't return.

[joonifloofeefloo]

The trades can be a great option but many take a large toll on your body such as construction. I worked in a state program to help people with disabilities return to work. Many were injured in their 30’s and most were done by 50.

+1. I'm strongly encouraging my child to go into trades, if not software. But I'm equally encouraging him to do the MMM thing of socking away every penny for those first 6-10 years of a trade, so he can move on to other stuff (even a lighter, hobby FIRE schedule) before it permanently affects his body.

[FINate]

I dont think that the purpose of a college education should be to solely to acquire job skills.

Agree, the purpose of college isn't necessarily to acquire job skills. But neither is it to acquire an education or professional network or any number of hoped-for nobel reasons. One can read books and watch Khan Academy videos for free. Hell, some colleges are even ok with non-students sitting in on classes, but you don't get credit so almost no one does it. The primary value of college is the credential. If a college offered a program at 1/10 the cost but no degree at the end the interest in it would be about zero. People want the credential for the increased earning potential, which is kinda logical given how expensive it has become.

[Cranky]

A huge part of the problem here is that these are jobs that require drug testing, and about half the applicants can't pass. That cuts your labor pool down fast.

[MayDay]

A huge part of the problem here is that these are jobs that require drug testing, and about half the applicants can't pass. That cuts your labor pool down fast.

That is so true. I'm an engineer and we have a lot of trouble hiring younger operators who don't do pot. I don't think anyone necessarily cares what they do on their off time, but they are operating potentially dangerous equipment, and there's less understanding of how it affects you than with alcohol.

We have seen some small plants stop their drug test because they just cannot get anyone who passes. But one told me they had just fired two people for smoking IN THE BREAK ROOM.

These are not states where it is legal at all,by the way!

Also a big industrial plant that is not climate controlled.... People would rather work in an air conditioned distribution center. Long-term I don't think it pays better but a lot of people don't think long term.

[ender]

There is one aspect that I haven't seen anyone mention yet: construction is a boom-and-bust industry. It's is extremely vulnerable to economic volatily.

Yup. Try being in home construction in 2010...

[sokoloff]

A huge part of the problem here is that these are jobs that require drug testing, and about half the applicants can't pass. That cuts your labor pool down fast.

Though I'd pass, I'd never consent to a drug test for employment. We had a contract at work that proposed my employees to be tested. I pushed back, hard, and got it restricted to only those employees who would be performing substantial work on customer premises (and told the customer that we wouldn't ever be doing testing). Their lawyers were happy.

[use2betrix]

A huge part of the problem here is that these are jobs that require drug testing, and about half the applicants can't pass. That cuts your labor pool down fast.

I’ve worked all over the country doing industrial new construction jobs from around 20 million to 10 billion in size. Every single one of these jobs had a pre employment drug screen and random program. Maybe the type of people your job attracts it might be half, but for actual skilled trades in these industrial projects, the fail rate is probably closer to 5% or so. It’s very rare - I work in management now so I do hear about it when people fail a lot of the time.

A huge part of the problem here is that these are jobs that require drug testing, and about half the applicants can't pass. That cuts your labor pool down fast.

Though I'd pass, I'd never consent to a drug test for employment. We had a contract at work that proposed my employees to be tested. I pushed back, hard, and got it restricted to only those employees who would be performing substantial work on customer premises (and told the customer that we wouldn't ever be doing testing). Their lawyers were happy.

If you wouldn’t “consent” you simply couldn’t work at these jobs lol. These aren’t optional tests, they’re a part of your employment and job site requirements. The safety culture is huge.

[use2betrix]

One thing I do really like about the industry is the no-BS, no concern of feelings/sensitivity environment. If people do something stupid, they hear about it with no regard to their feelings. There is also isn’t this huge value placed on political correctness at such an extreme. A lot of people simply couldn’t handle that portion of the job. “My boss yelled at me, I’m gonna quit.”

We were cutting overtime back and had about a dozen union guys say they weren’t coming to work Saturday if they didn’t get to work Sunday (Sunday is double time) there was no argument - no discussion - we simply fired all of them and dealt with the union rep.

I will add that there’s a huge difference in skill level between say - welders at industrial plants, and welders in manufacturing, and the pay reflects it. Manufacturing plants are often just doing wire welds, sticking two parts together. Cars, gym equipment, atv’s, etc. industrial pipe welders are following intricate procedures on “exotic” materials with stringent requirements that may operate at 1000 degrees and 6000 PSI. Probably like comparing a nurse to a neurologist. I honestly would struggle to consider some welders and others crafts as “skilled trades.”

[Cranky]

A huge part of the problem here is that these are jobs that require drug testing, and about half the applicants can't pass. That cuts your labor pool down fast.

I’ve worked all over the country doing industrial new construction jobs from around 20 million to 10 billion in size. Every single one of these jobs had a pre employment drug screen and random program. Maybe the type of people your job attracts it might be half, but for actual skilled trades in these industrial projects, the fail rate is probably closer to 5% or so. It’s very rare - I work in management now so I do hear about it when people fail a lot of the time.

A huge part of the problem here is that these are jobs that require drug testing, and about half the applicants can't pass. That cuts your labor pool down fast.

Though I'd pass, I'd never consent to a drug test for employment. We had a contract at work that proposed my employees to be tested. I pushed back, hard, and got it restricted to only those employees who would be performing substantial work on customer premises (and told the customer that we wouldn't ever be doing testing). Their lawyers were happy.

If you wouldn’t “consent” you simply couldn’t work at these jobs lol. These aren’t optional tests, they’re a part of your employment and job site requirements. The safety culture is huge.

From what I hear, as soon as a lot of applicants learn there's a drug test, they leave. There are factory, warehouse and fracking jobs here begging for people, but it's the kind of work that you really can't do safely if you're stoned.

[Seadog]

I dont think that the purpose of a college education should be to solely to acquire job skills.

Agree, the purpose of college isn't necessarily to acquire job skills. But neither is it to acquire an education or professional network or any number of hoped-for nobel reasons. One can read books and watch Khan Academy videos for free. Hell, some colleges are even ok with non-students sitting in on classes, but you don't get credit so almost no one does it. The primary value of college is the credential. If a college offered a program at 1/10 the cost but no degree at the end the interest in it would be about zero. People want the credential for the increased earning potential, which is kinda logical given how expensive it has become.

While I agree 100% with that, the problem with massively inflating the price of a credential (or brand) disparate to it's cost, is that it in turn gets devalued through imitators, forgers, or it being awarded for spurious reasons like money. In a sense, it's really no more than a brand. You are a "Harvard" branded engineer. Your branded as a "university educated" worker.

Why does a Rolex cost more than a Timex when the latter tells just as good as time? Why are there a hundred "universities" operating out of boiler rooms that have some iteration of Cambridge or Oxford in the their name? Is that Harvard branded lawyer really good? Or did his uncle just donate an airport to the school?

Unfortunately universities have become branded businesses, and learning has taken a back burner. If you're passionate about learning these days, I'm not even sure where you'd go.

Sociologically, I find it tremendously interesting in that this current mess is not unlike stock or housing bubbles. At a time like 1920 it was true that stocks were a better investment than bonds, or that buying a house was a better investment than renting like the 90s. Similarly there was a time when going to university offered up more opportunity. However, like people bidding up housing or stocks, the more people jump on board, each minutely worsens the value proposition, until you get this current mess of everyone and their dog getting a degree but still being a moron.

[Penn42]

The safety culture is huge.

At least the part of the country I'm at the drug tests are much less to do with safety than it is a culturally appropriate action to weed out all the "tweekers" who get high on "dope" (weed).  I've seen guys show up to work drunk and people brush it off because "he's actually a good guy" or "he just doesn't know when to quit" or some other lame bullshit, but you even bring up weed and the roar of "kids these days" and "back in the old days" is deafening.  I don't see how taking a few puffs after work is any different than taking a few sips as long as you show up sober and prepared for your job, but that doesn't really matter because it's not about whether or not your show up prepared or not, it's about keeping construction culture nice and conservative and insular.  I am in a state that has legalized, btw.

One thing I do really like about the industry is the no-BS, no concern of feelings/sensitivity environment. If people do something stupid, they hear about it with no regard to their feelings. There is also isn’t this huge value placed on political correctness at such an extreme. A lot of people simply couldn’t handle that portion of the job. “My boss yelled at me, I’m gonna quit.”

This is a bit of a double edged sword IMO.  I really enjoy knowing exactly where I stand with people or my work.  I really enjoy the lack of petty social "maneuvering" that I've experienced in more white collar environments.  People generally wear their opinions of you on their sleeve.  It's also nice that, even though I largely don't fit in with my coworkers culturally or politically or really in any way outside of work, that they judge me for the work I do and the effort I put it.  That's one thing I experienced in college: the effort didn't matter. I was never the brightest student, but I put the effort in.  Showed up for office hours, asked questions, generally tried to be a good student, but if I wasn't one of the top people in the class the professors didn't care.  Unless it was scheduled time like office hours that they couldn't run away from they never had time for advice or help due to being so "busy".  Then I'd see them taking extra time out of their day for the people who were already doing great.  That pissed me off.  I digress...

On the other hand, I think the factors that lead to the good things above are the same that lead to (to me) stupid and child-like showings of pride.  Everything is a game of one-upsmanship.  And everything is an opportunity to "fling shit" to get under someone's skin.  I don't participate or respond when presented with that stuff and folks have learned I'm not taking the bait.  It's tiring to be around nonetheless.  Why can't we drop all these pretenses of "manliness" and just talk like normal people?

I will add that there’s a huge difference in skill level between say - welders at industrial plants, and welders in manufacturing, and the pay reflects it. Manufacturing plants are often just doing wire welds, sticking two parts together. Cars, gym equipment, atv’s, etc. industrial pipe welders are following intricate procedures on “exotic” materials with stringent requirements that may operate at 1000 degrees and 6000 PSI. Probably like comparing a nurse to a neurologist. I honestly would struggle to consider some welders and others crafts as “skilled trades.”

I agree with this assessment.  I might even take it a step further.  I'm a union plumber apprentice.  It's physically taxing, but as far as how challenging the job is otherwise?  It's not.  The largest part of the "skill" is simply being familiar with code and all the various methods of pipe fastening.  There's a lot of code to know and lots of parts to be familiar with between the meter and the faucet, but I wouldn't venture to call it a skill learning that stuff.  There's plenty of really good plumbers out there who aren't the sharpest tool in the shed. 

As far as my experience with my peers in the apprenticeship: the bar for intelligence is pretty low.  I'm older than many because I didn't get into the trade right out of high school, regardless though...  Most went to shitty high schools in shitty little country towns with parents who didn't care or support their learning in any way.  I've heard a 2.5 GPA called "impressive".  It's really opened my eyes to my privilege of having parents that had the expectation I took school seriously and who took it upon themselves to make sure I did well by helping me study or quizzing me or tutoring if I was struggling in a subject.  I probably sound like an asshole saying that, but joining the trades has opened my eyes to a whole world I never experienced personally.

[big_slacker]

Why does a Rolex cost more than a Timex when the latter tells just as good as time? Why are there a hundred "universities" operating out of boiler rooms that have some iteration of Cambridge or Oxford in the their name? Is that Harvard branded lawyer really good? Or did his uncle just donate an airport to the school?

Just to jump in on this analogy as a watch guy. The rolex case is made from a harder and more corrosion resistant steel, the movement was designed and is produced almost entirely in house to control quality, the watches are largely hand assembled and each one is individually QC'd before it goes out the door.

The Timex is mass produced on an assembly line from parts sourced who knows where and not subject to anything like the quality control.

While a quartz movement will be more accurate than an automatic every single time, the actual materials, build quality and value of a Rolex is massively better than any timex. Also, get on watchrecon and see what 30 year old Submariner or Daytona goes for. (You won't, they're nearly the same or more expensive than current models) Do the same for a 30 year old timex.

You can definitely argue that the Rolex is overpriced largely due to brand image, but thinking that there is nothing behind the image is a mistake. This may very well be the case for an Ivy League school, there was a recent thread where some ivy league folks DID bring up some solid points for real value of the schools, it's worth searching for and reading.

Sorry to go a little OT there, hopefully I brought it back at the end. ;)

[sol]

Just to jump in on this analogy as a watch guy.

I love the watch example, because it highlights the exact problem with brands. 

Yes, the Rolex has more expensive materials, and superior craftmanship, and counless times more human life energy invested in it.  It is also a vastly inferior product, as a timepiece.  Quarts is more reliable, more durable, cheaper and easier to produce, and most importantly for a timepiece, it keeps better time.

The Rolex is like a painting.  It may have value as art (or it may not) but it is a really shitty comparison to a photograph.  Photography has completely replaced painting as a means of conveying visual information in every medium, except art (where it shares the space).  If your painting is a famous brand name one from a recognized artist, it may have value as an object of historical curiosity because it is unique.  A Rolex is never unique, though.  Which is why it baffles me that anyone still values the "brand" idea when we're talking about mass produced machinery of inferior quality.

[Cranky]

The safety culture is huge.

At least the part of the country I'm at the drug tests are much less to do with safety than it is a culturally appropriate action to weed out all the "tweekers" who get high on "dope" (weed).  I've seen guys show up to work drunk and people brush it off because "he's actually a good guy" or "he just doesn't know when to quit" or some other lame bullshit, but you even bring up weed and the roar of "kids these days" and "back in the old days" is deafening.  I don't see how taking a few puffs after work is any different than taking a few sips as long as you show up sober and prepared for your job, but that doesn't really matter because it's not about whether or not your show up prepared or not, it's about keeping construction culture nice and conservative and insular.  I am in a state that has legalized, btw.

Around here, they take showing up for work drunk pretty seriously, too - someone in my extended family showed up at the factory where he was pulled off the floor, breathalyzed, and fired on the spot, and that's been about 3 years ago. He made really good money, and he'll never get hired anywhere again.

[pecunia]

From my experience there is a kind of brotherhood in the crafts.  I think if a young guy is in the right company and apprenticed under the right person he (or she) develops the skills they need for life.

Now - Let's take a young engineer hired out of college.  he its thrown behind a desk and stuff is dribbled to him.  I think in many A/E organizations, there is more of a tendency for he (or she) to be just another body to crank out engineering deliverables.

The young craftsman may be taught the right way and the wrong way to do the job.  An eye is developed for the craft.  An appreciation is developed for the work.  Someone takes the time to point out mistakes.  As time goes on this young worker takes on more intricate and difficult work to eventually move up to journeyman and may become a master.

The young engineer is put in his (her) place.  Keep the head down, get the work done and obtain a paycheck.  Work is divided like an assembly line.  The person sees a small portion of the work, but little or no effort is made to expose this person to the big picture, the entirety of the work.  Some of the work is done by H1B people from India.  these folks keep to themselves and certainly do not help the young novice to learn.  The young engineer learns his tiny portion of the job since there is not a "need to know" anything beyond this.

Craftsmen see the drawings, bills of materials and specs produced by the A/E firm.  Some of the older craftsmen note that the product being produced these days by the engineers is not as good as it once was.  It's like it's being "pushed" out the door.  Another comments that today's engineers don't seem to have the experience that the older guys had a few years back.  Luckily, the experience of the craftsmen enable most of the errors and omissions from the A/E company to be corrected.

[sol]

Pecunia, that whole post makes me uncomfortable.  I hear unsubtle echoes of classism and racism in your argument that (to paraphrase a bit) educated elites are trash, blue collar workers are saving the country from itself, and immigrants are the source of all of our problems. 

If I may inquire politely, who did you vote for in the 2016 presidential election?

[use2betrix]

Pecunia, that whole post makes me uncomfortable.  I hear unsubtle echoes of classism and racism in your argument that (to paraphrase a bit) educated elites are trash, blue collar workers are saving the country from itself, and immigrants are the source of all of our problems. 

If I may inquire politely, who did you vote for in the 2016 presidential election?

If I may inquire politely, what is your first hand experience in the topic of the thread?

Personally, it sounds like Pecunia just outlined my current project to a T, all the way down to the engineering being outsourced to India. While I won’t speak at length, one would be silly to think that there aren’t major cultural differences in the work place amongst different countries. Saying the American and Indian culture is different, is a fact. Heck, many of our clients are German and there’s also a cultural difference. It’s not like Pecunia was like “lots of blacks at our job, they are inferior.” Big difference.

The only disagreement I really have with Pecunias post based on my current project, is that not only is it far and beyond the worst engineering I have ever seen, there are also by far the worst, poorly skilled craft I have ever seen. This is the first job I’ve worked where the craft is union, and it’s certainly leaving a bad taste in my mouth in terms of training and skill level of these union employees. I have seen such poor craftsmanship that I honestly have a hard time comprehending. Same goes with engineering issues as well. Being in upper management on the construction side, I witness all of it first hand.

[pecunia]

I didn't vote for Mr. Trump.  I hesitantly voted for Hillary.  I might have voted for Jill Stein except for her escapade with the Dakota pipeline.

I have worked both in a design office and in the field.  You can call me racist if you want.  I don't care.  However, it has been my experience that there are those who do not leave the caste system behind.  Not all, just some.   As use2betrix said, there are cultural differences and to ignore them is to ignore reality.

educated elites are trash, blue collar workers are saving the country from itself, and immigrants are the source of all of our problems.

I guess I have no use for anyone who calls themselves an "elite," educated or otherwise.  Most blue collar workers, immigrants and people in general are just trying to make their way in this world.  I'm not sure what is meant by "saving the country from itself."

[jlcnuke]

Of course all trade jobs are hurting for workers. Nobody that has worked such jobs dreams that their kids will someday be wrenching on pipes in their 50's, or climbing under a house to work on plumbing, or working roofing in 100F heat, etc etc.  They're hard jobs that are hard on the body and mind. Many require long hours away from family to get the better paying positions. Many are dangerous, and most are generally thought of as more dangerous than sitting in an office typing on a computer. Who wishes that for their kids when they can dream of their kids conquering the business world making great money in a "cushy" job sitting behind a desk in air conditioning?

Since most parents don't want that life for their children, they raise their kids to aspire to 'better' (at best) or to "think they're above such jobs" in other cases.  I'll bill 85+ hours this week, and my feet and back are already sore because I'm "on-site" and doing stuff for a client that involves walking around most of the day (not my normal job). Still, I'm not one of the electricians or millwrights or I&C techs or scaffold builders etc that are doing the real work here, and it's hard on my body and mind at 41. I honestly feel bad for the guys I see that are clearly in their 50's+ who are doing those much more physically demanding jobs out there in the almost 90F temps.

Those jobs aren't even in the "backup plans" for many (most?) teenagers or people in their twenties, much less for older people.

[Seadog]

The safety culture is huge.

At least the part of the country I'm at the drug tests are much less to do with safety than it is a culturally appropriate action to weed out all the "tweekers" who get high on "dope" (weed).  I've seen guys show up to work drunk and people brush it off because "he's actually a good guy" or "he just doesn't know when to quit" or some other lame bullshit, but you even bring up weed and the roar of "kids these days" and "back in the old days" is deafening.  I don't see how taking a few puffs after work is any different than taking a few sips as long as you show up sober and prepared for your job, but that doesn't really matter because it's not about whether or not your show up prepared or not, it's about keeping construction culture nice and conservative and insular.  I am in a state that has legalized, btw.

Around here, they take showing up for work drunk pretty seriously, too - someone in my extended family showed up at the factory where he was pulled off the floor, breathalyzed, and fired on the spot, and that's been about 3 years ago. He made really good money, and he'll never get hired anywhere again.

Not even drunk, I had an acquaintance with over a decade experience as a petroleum engineer about to fly offshore, and as matter of course, the oil company (one of the super majors) breathalyze everyone and he blew a 0.02 from the night before. Perfectly legal to drive, but not sit in a helicopter. As a contractor he was kicked off the chopper, then the company fired him.

Another friend got returned after flying cross country after failing a random drug test for recent weed use again as a contractor for a third party company in the US, but as a small private company, he just got a finger wagging and told to remember how all actions in or out of work may reflect on the co.

Safety is critical, and I'll be the first to champion it, but in the industry it's become a dick measuring contest of who can be the most safe. When I started fall arrest gear was required if you could fall more than 3m/9ft which I believe is still the legal min. Then a company wanted to be eager and changed it to 2m. Now some are doing 1.5m. One friend got hassled by an overzealous safety wiener for being on a foot stool with no harness, since "his head was over 6' high". To which he retorted that he was over 6' tall, so does he need to always have a harness on when he's standing?

Getting firmly off topic here, but I think it's one of those things that they can show they're doing a better and better job, by just lowering the bar as to what 'dangerous' behavior is more and more.

[big_slacker]

Just to jump in on this analogy as a watch guy.

I love the watch example, because it highlights the exact problem with brands. 

Yes, the Rolex has more expensive materials, and superior craftmanship, and counless times more human life energy invested in it.  It is also a vastly inferior product, as a timepiece.  Quarts is more reliable, more durable, cheaper and easier to produce, and most importantly for a timepiece, it keeps better time.

The Rolex is like a painting.  It may have value as art (or it may not) but it is a really shitty comparison to a photograph.  Photography has completely replaced painting as a means of conveying visual information in every medium, except art (where it shares the space).  If your painting is a famous brand name one from a recognized artist, it may have value as an object of historical curiosity because it is unique.  A Rolex is never unique, though.  Which is why it baffles me that anyone still values the "brand" idea when we're talking about mass produced machinery of inferior quality.

Before the advent of quartz, rolex and others represented some of the best, most accurate personal timekeeping a serious person (divers, etc.) could get their hands on. At that point they were fairly expensive but not really overpriced tools. When seiko brought quartz to mass market the mechanical market was crushed and it was either bankruptcy or a change in marketing. Rolex chose to transform their earned image of quality and craftsmanship to a perception of wealth and success. That said, the quality and innovation has remained. Think a really good, modern and refined push mower instead of a gas powered one. But with the price jacked WAY up and a bunch of consumerist baggage attached. :D

From my experience there is a kind of brotherhood in the crafts.  I think if a young guy is in the right company and apprenticed under the right person he (or she) develops the skills they need for life.

Now - Let's take a young engineer hired out of college.  he its thrown behind a desk and stuff is dribbled to him.  I think in many A/E organizations, there is more of a tendency for he (or she) to be just another body to crank out engineering deliverables.

The young craftsman may be taught the right way and the wrong way to do the job.  An eye is developed for the craft.  An appreciation is developed for the work.  Someone takes the time to point out mistakes.  As time goes on this young worker takes on more intricate and difficult work to eventually move up to journeyman and may become a master.

The young engineer is put in his (her) place.  Keep the head down, get the work done and obtain a paycheck.  Work is divided like an assembly line.  The person sees a small portion of the work, but little or no effort is made to expose this person to the big picture, the entirety of the work.  Some of the work is done by H1B people from India.  these folks keep to themselves and certainly do not help the young novice to learn.  The young engineer learns his tiny portion of the job since there is not a "need to know" anything beyond this.

Craftsmen see the drawings, bills of materials and specs produced by the A/E firm.  Some of the older craftsmen note that the product being produced these days by the engineers is not as good as it once was.  It's like it's being "pushed" out the door.  Another comments that today's engineers don't seem to have the experience that the older guys had a few years back.  Luckily, the experience of the craftsmen enable most of the errors and omissions from the A/E company to be corrected.

It's been my experience that a similar mentorship and brotherhood exists in many technical and white collar fields. I've mentored a number of younger engineers throughout my career and I'm super proud to see them flourish in their own careers and do things the right way.

Also even working in big tech like I do we get very regular briefings from the CEO on the company's direction, town hall style Q/A's from the CEO and other top execs, briefings from the financial folks on how we're doing on down to the direction of the individual product groups and products. Everyone knows what they're working on and how it adds value to the company. People that do a good job get publicly recognized for it as well as compensated for it in bonus $$ and stock.

I'm overseeing 2 junior engineers now and they damn sure know the greater product we're building and even given leeway to do parts of the project that includes a great deal of responsibility and associated chance to shine. They don't have as much autonomy as I do but I seriously doubt they think they're just getting shit on in the dark.

Your field may be different of course, but I don't see this in mine.

[Seadog]

Pecunia, that whole post makes me uncomfortable.  I hear unsubtle echoes of classism and racism in your argument that (to paraphrase a bit) educated elites are trash, blue collar workers are saving the country from itself, and immigrants are the source of all of our problems. 

If I may inquire politely, who did you vote for in the 2016 presidential election?

I too sympathize with his arguments. Having worked in a few different countries with people of all sorts of backgrounds, I can understand the frustration. Certain countries are the way they are for a reason, and the mentality to survive there can be wildly counter productive as a whole and self reinforcing. When there are a billion people desperate for work and eating trash, you can understandably be very possessive of any relative advantage you have, even if it's to the great detriment of the party providing it. It's literally get as much as you can, as quick as you can, because any good times you currently enjoy will likely be short lived. A massively short sighted and destructive ideology, especially when everyone is engaging in it.

I've had people politely tell me to go away or refuse to do certain tasks while I was there or during normal work hours, because they honestly believed if I saw what they were doing, methods which are well documented in several places and that I could look up mind you, that I would try to undercut his pay and steal his job. In some places  (his previous country where min wage is 88 pesos a day?) that might actually be the case, and if it is, well then such an attitude makes sense. Or ensuring that any vehicle service gets done through their friends' shops, even if it means delays, higher prices, or poorer quality. Going to friends who own gas stations and getting cartons of cigarettes put on fuel cards as 'fuel' means we instead have to buy and expense our own fuel and manually track mileage/fuel consumption.

Literally any sort of stream lined operation that relied on a modicum of trust got steamrolled resulting in triple the paperwork, checks, and bureaucracy because people felt justified in engaging in elaborate schemes which they felt somehow negated the stealing factor. We had a shop that was shutting down so no one was ever regularly there, and the only people who knew this and had access literally cleaned out anything of value assuming that the building and stuff in side was going to be left to rot? Who knows what their mindset was.

In the west though, these are just he "cultural differences" that enriches us all I guess? At the expense of getting things done and knowledge sharing and strengthening the organization?   

Conversely tho, you go down to Mexico and have a work shop with lots of expensive tools and equipment, you get robbed and it's your fault because you should have had armed guards and heavy gates there. So I'm not saying it's a wrong attitude, it's one incompatible in a high-trust society and wildly frustrating. 

[jlcnuke]

The safety culture is huge.

At least the part of the country I'm at the drug tests are much less to do with safety than it is a culturally appropriate action to weed out all the "tweekers" who get high on "dope" (weed).  I've seen guys show up to work drunk and people brush it off because "he's actually a good guy" or "he just doesn't know when to quit" or some other lame bullshit, but you even bring up weed and the roar of "kids these days" and "back in the old days" is deafening.  I don't see how taking a few puffs after work is any different than taking a few sips as long as you show up sober and prepared for your job, but that doesn't really matter because it's not about whether or not your show up prepared or not, it's about keeping construction culture nice and conservative and insular.  I am in a state that has legalized, btw.

Around here, they take showing up for work drunk pretty seriously, too - someone in my extended family showed up at the factory where he was pulled off the floor, breathalyzed, and fired on the spot, and that's been about 3 years ago. He made really good money, and he'll never get hired anywhere again.

Not even drunk, I had an acquaintance with over a decade experience as a petroleum engineer about to fly offshore, and as matter of course, the oil company (one of the super majors) breathalyze everyone and he blew a 0.02 from the night before. Perfectly legal to drive, but not sit in a helicopter. As a contractor he was kicked off the chopper, then the company fired him.

Another friend got returned after flying cross country after failing a random drug test for recent weed use again as a contractor for a third party company in the US, but as a small private company, he just got a finger wagging and told to remember how all actions in or out of work may reflect on the co.

Safety is critical, and I'll be the first to champion it, but in the industry it's become a dick measuring contest of who can be the most safe. When I started fall arrest gear was required if you could fall more than 3m/9ft which I believe is still the legal min. Then a company wanted to be eager and changed it to 2m. Now some are doing 1.5m. One friend got hassled by an overzealous safety wiener for being on a foot stool with no harness, since "his head was over 6' high". To which he retorted that he was over 6' tall, so does he need to always have a harness on when he's standing?

Getting firmly off topic here, but I think it's one of those things that they can show they're doing a better and better job, by just lowering the bar as to what 'dangerous' behavior is more and more.

FYI, OSHA standards are either 4' or 6' for most applications. Often the "bar gets lowered" because we learn more about how people are injured (for instance, mandating airbags or seat-belt use after discovering that research showed doing so would reduce the number of injuries/deaths from those hazards). The lats example you mention was just an idiot though...

[LiveLean]

I have a rental property/second home in a beach area of similar properties though there are some full-time residents. I've gotten to know two of them very well -- my plumber and my pool guy (rental agencies require pools to be cleaned for $100/week during the summer rental season, plus another $100 a week if you want the fun of providing a hot tub to your weekly renters. That is not a misprint -- $200 per week per home. Pool guy employs a lot of high school and college kids. They service 200-plus pools, plus do pool construction, repair etc). Plumber and pool guy own their own businesses and both live in waterfront homes worth $2.5 million that I'd be shocked if they owed a dime on. Plus they have rental properties in the same community.

Here in Florida, I have a friend in his mid-50s who has been doing irrigation for 30 years. He can't keep up with the work. He's always struggled to find help. He's at an age where he'd be happy to train someone and all but give him the business, perhaps staying on part-time. He can't find anyone.

[RetiredAt63]

In my farming area a lot of plumbers/electricians/etc. are running a farm part-time and doing the work part-time.  They have their own 1 or 2 person business and the flexibility to set their own times. It works out really well for them.  Same for other services - I know a couple who started a pool business out of their home, and it is now in its own building, several employees, business trucks, etc.

[Slow2FIRE]

Work 80hrs a week to earn 150K?  No thanks, I'll pass.  Life is about more than just money and with that kind of workload with a physically demanding job, you aren't really living.

I like my 40hr work week, I could do voluntary OT to hit 150K but I'm more interested in living a life than working.

It seems that most trades earn around 50K to 80K per year on a 40hr work week (a very respectable wage), but they don't typically take too kindly to people turning down overtime if a job needs to get done.

[elliha]

Of course all trade jobs are hurting for workers. Nobody that has worked such jobs dreams that their kids will someday be wrenching on pipes in their 50's, or climbing under a house to work on plumbing, or working roofing in 100F heat, etc etc.  They're hard jobs that are hard on the body and mind. Many require long hours away from family to get the better paying positions. Many are dangerous, and most are generally thought of as more dangerous than sitting in an office typing on a computer. Who wishes that for their kids when they can dream of their kids conquering the business world making great money in a "cushy" job sitting behind a desk in air conditioning?

Since most parents don't want that life for their children, they raise their kids to aspire to 'better' (at best) or to "think they're above such jobs" in other cases.  I'll bill 85+ hours this week, and my feet and back are already sore because I'm "on-site" and doing stuff for a client that involves walking around most of the day (not my normal job). Still, I'm not one of the electricians or millwrights or I&C techs or scaffold builders etc that are doing the real work here, and it's hard on my body and mind at 41. I honestly feel bad for the guys I see that are clearly in their 50's+ who are doing those much more physically demanding jobs out there in the almost 90F temps.

Those jobs aren't even in the "backup plans" for many (most?) teenagers or people in their twenties, much less for older people.

I don't know if this is down to cultural differences (I am Swedish) but my working class family for the most part actively discouraged me when I wanted to go to college and the general recommendation in my family is to not waste time going to school beyond high school and instead get a proper job (manual job). I was ridiculed for playing eternal teenager and told about how many years such and such person worked when they were my age while in college. Student loans were also going to kill me etc.

My MIL and FIL wanted my husband to better himself and he has more college credits than me but cannot get a degree because he cannot make himself write an essay. He is now a very intelligent well-read janitor who I still think has a chance of moving up but he is the very example of why you should not go to college without a plan or because mom and dad want you to. He has always had a talent for more practical work and is a natural doing things like this and I think that he would have been a much happier man had he started in a manual job and worked himself up with job related courses and perhaps some extra college course on the side than the way life presented itself to him.

I take a balanced view on the subject. I would fully support any thought out plan by my kids whether they would go for a trade or go to college but I would strongly discourage going to college and not know what to do with your education. I would rather see them working for a while and see what they want in life than get them straight into college and then three years down the line they want to do something else. I want my kids to be happy, be able to support themselves and be productive members of society but beyond that I don't make plans for them.

[cripes7]

I've been reading this post with interest. I have 4 sons, 2 with college degrees-1 has a Master's, and 2 that did a year of college then went to linemen school. The 2 that became linemen are foremen, at 25 and 27, and have made over 100k for the last 3 and 5 yrs respectively. They'll be the first to tell you, it isn't for everyone. Working conditions, extremely dangerous work, very un-PC, etc. In storms they'll work several days straight in various parts of the country, in terrible conditions, even if their own homes don't have power. 1 went from non-union to union last year for better benefits, the other enjoys his schedule of 8 days on, 6 days off. They both max retirement savings because the job is so hard on knees and shoulders. The college degree sons, who are older, still don't make as much as their brothers, but are in less physically demanding jobs.

There is a huge need for experienced workers in their field, but as some have mentioned, drug testing is an issue, clean driving records, and then the issue they see with a lot of  guys starting out, some people don't want to work that hard. It's so interesting to me as they discuss various workers to hear them talk about the guys they mentor who work hard without complaint, go the extra mile and want to learn, vs the guys who are there for the check but are careless and lazy. As they say, carelessness in that job gets you killed. (I use guys because there are few women in linework.)

So there's a need for both, college and trades, but our culture of disparaging the trades needs to end. The majority of the tradesmen and women I know are hard working family leaders who are coaches, scout leaders, support local schools, and the people who will help you out in a jam. We need as many people willing to be the "doers" as the conceptualizers.