Author Topic: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?  (Read 23183 times)

Abe Froman

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Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« on: March 25, 2021, 06:57:04 AM »
Below is my own quote from the 2021-Cohort.

I am going to sign myself up for April 16. (Now there will be 5 pulling the cord that date)
This is my first time signing up to a FIRE Cohort - hope I am doing it right.
Now.... its out in the universe.

Now to develop what I am going to say to my boss (the CEO). I report to him, and plan on telling him in person - I think its the right thing to do. Phone call seems impersonal to me since I had been there 15 years, plus I want to keep the options open for the future.

It feels like I am jumping naked from a biplane into an ice cold lake.

Eeesh. After months of discussions and walking through the estimates of what we can do - etc, I walk her through how I am going to tell my company next week - and she is starting to flip out. She is behind the idea she says - but very nervous about no income coming in case of X, Y, Z. I asked her what those were she she paused and said - what if the kids get sick, hurricane, etc. How do I quantify that? I get her anxiety flags are waving - I get it.

I have a plan for the health exchange, don't know what to say about hurricane other than we have house insurance, and I have no idea how to address her concerns of her unknown unknowns.

We are at a 2.5% but I could see us flexing up to a 2.7% if we tried.

She said she wants a detailed budget and plan - which I have the soft outlines of, but even if I develop that - detailing our proposed POST-Fire budget in more detail - developing estimates of average market returns, how we conduct the Roth ladder, even after that - I wonder if she will let us Fire.

How did you walk them through the path of the plan to ease their concern?
I already plan on showing the http://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/ chart.

Anyone else's SO go through this?

edited due to reasonable reference below
« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 09:18:42 AM by Abe Froman »

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Re: Her security gland is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2021, 07:33:02 AM »
Yep, mine did.  I prepped him for a year, then covid happened which delayed us 6-8 months.  It was all about the details, but once he realized I was serious he embraced it.  So much so that I was offered a well paying 7 month remote gig last week and he encouraged me to say no even before I had the chance to tell him I was going to tell the company no thanks. 

reeshau

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Re: Her security gland is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2021, 07:50:36 AM »
My wife didn't get last-minute cold feet, but she was quite skeptical when it came time to take action.  In part this was because of the significant change involved:  we FIRE'd as we moved back from Ireland to the US, just as we had talked for years.  Only, it happened 3 years only.  She came into our relationship as the financial planner / saver, but had fallen away from that role for several reasons.  I think two things helped:  she also wanted a detailed budget--not to prove the numbers to her, but to give her a target to shoot for.  (e.g. groceries)  What also helped is the cash cushion we had.  And this is the advice I would give:  there are a lot of reasons why people choose a cash cushion:  SORR, emergency fund, bucket strategy, etc.  I think a reluctant spouse is another one.  The trick is to figure out how much you might need, but the gist is to reassure her that even if you blow your budget at first, because something goes wrong, you have to spend some money to adjust the budget, (i.e. buy a lawn mower to fire the lawn service) you make a mistake on managing taxes or ACA subsidies the first time, etc. you have cash in hand that means those things don't blow up the whole plan.

For us, although we came home from Ireland early, we also came back with a European-sized severance payment, so we had years and years of expenses in cash.  But we also had to buy a house.  (and without a paycheck, we had to *buy* a house.  No mortgage was available) but she could look at the bank website and see the cash we had in hand, and know that we were fully flexible.  We're 1 year into retirement, but really 9 months into our settled situation.  We will review our budget performance at the 1 year mark, but really if anything we have underspent, because like so many travel was a big part of our retirement budget, and we just haven't done that.  I have to say that even I had some nervousness about the feasibility of our budget initially, because I had never lived in Houston before.  (and she had never been an independent adult here) But as we gain experience, this will be "normal," and we will proceed with confidence.

Freedom2016

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Re: Her security gland is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2021, 08:00:54 AM »
I had to look up what a security gland is and the first links were to Dave Ramsey asserting that women have this gland.

No thanks -- I'll take a pass on the sexism.

Morning Glory

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Re: Her security gland is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2021, 08:08:28 AM »
Security gland, I like that. I worry about things too, just different things.

Is that 2.5% your withdrawal rate?

 I would think being FIRED would be a bonus if you had a sick kid. I had a colleague who ran out of leave and had to work while her kid was getting chemo. Her husband worked and we all gave money but she was the one with the better health insurance plan so she had to work. It sucked all around. Kid got better luckily.

Hurricane too. Many more opportunities to evacuate if you don't have to go into your job.

Unknown unknowns are worse if you have a job, since most of them require time off which can be in limited supply.

Morning Glory

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Re: Her security gland is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2021, 08:12:30 AM »
I had to look up what a security gland is and the first links were to Dave Ramsey asserting that women have this gland.

No thanks -- I'll take a pass on the sexism.

Huh I just assumed the op made it up, and that men have it too. My husband buys too many groceries and I think it's irrational, for example, but he gets anxiety when there is not much food in the house. Lots of omy-ers on the forum are men, as are the people with giant bond allocations and huge cash emergency funds. Early mortgage payoff thread seems to be split 50-50.

Looks like it did come from Dave Ramsey and it was meant to be sexist. Yuck.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 08:18:23 AM by Morning Glory »

HPstache

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Re: Her security gland is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2021, 08:26:31 AM »
Here is something that might help.  If you have say $1,000,000 invested and a planned WR of $40,000 per year, drop the interest out of the equation and go straight to arithmetic say something like, "look, even if there was no interest involved in this plan, we have enough to spend $40,000 per year for the next 25 years".  I do recommend having some sort of a budget/plan that is more than theoretical.  It should include stuff like health insurance (assuming USA), the occasional new to you vehicle, etc built in.

Greystache

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Re: Her security gland is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2021, 08:40:48 AM »
I think your wife may have a point. If all you have is a soft outline of your post retirement budget, maybe you are not ready.  My wife was apprehensive about early retirement as well. I put together a detailed budget based on three years of prior spending. By the way, we have never exceeded our budget in six years of retirement.  I also had a detailed draw down plan that goes out 30 years. It specified which income sources would be tapped and when. It included estimated social security payouts and when we would file for social security. It included health care costs, taxes, insurance, and contingency plans e.g. what if social security is not fully funded?  In the end, it was this level of planning that helped her get comfortable. Six years later, we have no regrets.

DadJokes

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Re: Her security gland is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2021, 08:43:10 AM »
I had to look up what a security gland is and the first links were to Dave Ramsey asserting that women have this gland.

No thanks -- I'll take a pass on the sexism.

Everyone has a "security gland" - it's just another term for risk tolerance.

Freedom2016

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Re: Her security gland is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2021, 09:00:55 AM »
I had to look up what a security gland is and the first links were to Dave Ramsey asserting that women have this gland.

No thanks -- I'll take a pass on the sexism.

Everyone has a "security gland" - it's just another term for risk tolerance.

That makes sense. And, if everyone has it, Ramsey can kiss my ass for attributing it to women.

Abe Froman

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Re: Her security gland is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2021, 09:08:15 AM »
I had to look up what a security gland is and the first links were to Dave Ramsey asserting that women have this gland.

No thanks -- I'll take a pass on the sexism.

Not intended as sexism WHATSOEVER... not a fan of Ramsey for many reasons - perhaps I should have characterized it differently.

But I have the same security anxiety over various things - especially around the safety and wellness of my family. And it pops up in different ways and over different topics. Same for my wife - and this event (or pending event) is particularly stressful.

So ... I just Googled same term and found same references. And the sexism in the origination of that term - might be right.
I think I agree with @Freedom2016 - not because I was called out - but because of the screenshot of Ramsay's Total Money MakeOver page 134. That paragraph in my estimation suggests some volatile component of women - which is BS.

My wife is the analytical researcher whom I bounce ideas off of, all. the. time. - (as we should always be doing with our SOs- right?) And we work well when she listens to my concerns, and her to mine. Its a sanity check, because granted - anyone of us can certainly go off the rails even a little if we are left to our devices. My SO keeps me grounded - makes me think - AND lets me take risks at times too.

Sufficed to say - my wife's anxiety of our impending FIRE has her at a 9.


Morning Glory

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Re: Her security gland is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2021, 09:51:10 AM »

So ... I just Googled same term and found same references. And the sexism in the origination of that term - might be right.
I think I agree with @Freedom2016 - not because I was called out - but because of the screenshot of Ramsay's Total Money MakeOver page 134. That paragraph in my estimation suggests some volatile component of women - which is BS.


Oh Jesus, the innuendo in that paragraph alone made me gag a little.  I've never actually read any of Ramsey's books, but now I'm curious about them.  I just knew I disagreed with him because his baby steps are mathematically disadvantageous.  I would be happy to participate in a Dave Ramsey roast book club if someone starts one. 

...Never mind, I just skimmed through the rest of it. Very disappointing.   That one little part must have made it past the censors. 

Back to the topic at hand: give her the detailed budget. You said she is an analytical person, give her a chance to go over everything and look for flaws.  You didn't mention it but there is another safety margin in maintaining your professional license and certifications so that you have the option to find high-paying work easily if you need to.

I am not dealing with this at all. My DH doesn't care what I do as long as the bills get paid and I give him money for groceries and stuff.  That can be its own frustration.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 09:55:41 AM by Morning Glory »

nirodha

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2021, 10:59:04 AM »
You are smart to meet her where she is at. This is very much a team decision. Some items to consider:


How hard would it be to get another job? Is that a reasonable fall back plan? People take breaks from work all the time, with far less than you have today.


Would more education and planning help? It is important to get the mechanics right. Doing so feels much more stressful if you've already dropped the safety net. This is not a cut once and run for 50 years event. It's a rough plan you revisit annually and adjust as needed. I found these two books helpful:

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Successful-Secure-Retirement/dp/0857197320
https://www.amazon.com/Living-Off-Your-Money-Retirement/dp/0997403403

I especially like the chapter in Living Off Your Money, where he models the impact unexpected expenses have upon the plan. In short - if they are truly one off, not much.

We're using the income harvesting strategy from Living Off Your Money, but are sticking with a simple 4 fund portfolio. It was important my wife understood and could execute the plan. We also have a higher cash allocation in consideration of her comfort levels. Some of this is purposefully playing below my level, so she fully participates as a peer, in management of our shared assets.

Given today's high valuations, I'd argue this is especially important. If reversion to the mean looks like a 30% drop in portfolio value, she needs to be prepared. Part of the reason we've favored a simple portfolio, is I am not sure my wife would tolerate a large tracking error well. Sequence of return risks are high today, but they can be planned for.

You'll find every model shows your planned SWR is extremely conservative. Early Retirement Now provides a more complex spreadsheet you can use to re-evaluate:

https://earlyretirementnow.com/2018/08/29/google-sheet-updates-swr-series-part-28/



Are you fully transparent in joint asset holdings and spending? Does she understand it? We use personal capital to track everything. I categorize the budget and review it with my wife monthly. I've made sure my wife has access, understands how to use the interface, can see our portfolio holdings, etc. We've also setup mutual access to password managers, so in the event of death, the money in all accounts is readily available. We've also set each other as beneficiary on our individual financial accounts. There's an estate plan in and living will in place, with intent to revisit it as our post-FIRE life stabilizes.


Does she have a vision of what you are retiring too? That is something my wife and I are still sorting. I'm prepared to spend 6 months playing video games and napping. She'd like a couples mission statement. Given your numbers, I wonder if uncertainty over what the future looks like isn't her biggest concern.

BikeFanatic

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2021, 11:44:02 AM »
My spouse was concerned in the same way as yours Abe.( and we are both female), and She is the financial guru of the family.
We agreed that I would retire first and she will join me in a year and 2 months, so we can spend more on home improvement, big vacations, and toys, and whatever she may want.  This has made her very comfortable with the entire idea, plus I tracked our expenses for years, and we downsized and continue to do so.

She has been of the idea that we need almost 2 million and a paid off house to retire and even at our late ages ( 50's), she requires that extra security. Meanwhile we will be spending 45-60 thousand and we have pension and ss coming so in my eyes 1.5 million will do it. But one has to compromise in a relationship so that both can feel secure.

Metalcat

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2021, 11:45:09 AM »
Validate, validate, validate. Respect, respect, respect.

Don't try to convince her her fear is wrong, try to understand what underpins the fear.
There's something very important and very real beneath her fear, and it's likely something that's been with her for a very long time, and isn't likely to resolve with facts and logic.

Treat her fear as the most important and fascinating puzzle you've ever had to solve. Respect it, and demonstrate that respect through effort to fully understand it, but not with the agenda of discrediting it.

Try to understand it with the effort of feeling it yourself. If you can do that, then you can align properly as partners on how to move forward. Anything short of fully grasping it, and you will be an opponent who believes he knows better, trying to convince her to ignore her own instincts. And that's a bad look.

If you assume you know better than she does and that it's your job to make her see the light...well...yeah...don't do that.


bmjohnson35

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2021, 09:22:29 AM »

Ditto Malcat's feedback.

My spouse also had serious reservations when I got close to pulling the cord.  We tracked our expenses very closely for 2 years leading up to the day.  Despite this, we encountered thousands of dollars of unexpected expenses our 1st year out. Since covid shut down travel, it was easily offset.  Otherwise, we would probably have been 20% over our planned budget. We were fine either way. I'm only pointing out that unexpected expenses are not uncommon.

I'm not sure why, but the idea of FIRE'ing as a family with kids sounds a bit scarier than with one or two adults.  You haven't provided much detail about your financial situation, so we can only assume you really are prepared for the leap. 

Sibley

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2021, 05:19:00 PM »
Ditto Malcat.

But also - if your wife does actually have Anxiety the mental illness, then treatment for that mental illness is needed. Intrusive thoughts are not going to be swayed by logic, they need to be dealt with appropriately. This would be in conjunction with what Malcat said.

Metalcat

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2021, 05:30:43 PM »
Ditto Malcat.

But also - if your wife does actually have Anxiety the mental illness, then treatment for that mental illness is needed. Intrusive thoughts are not going to be swayed by logic, they need to be dealt with appropriately. This would be in conjunction with what Malcat said.

Yep. If a mental health issue is what is found as the basis of the fear, then even moreso, logical arguments won't help anything AND the fear very much needs to be respected.

No matter what the source, the fear is not invalid. That doesn't mean the fear can never be resolved, respecting something doesn't mean submitting to it. It means respecting the magnitude of the contributing factors and addressing them responsibly as opposed to minimizing the validity of the fear.


Omy

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2021, 06:35:18 PM »
In our case, I was the anxious spouse. I'm also the one who had been talking about early retirement from the beginning of our relationship.

In my fomer marriage, we had lean FIREd (at my suggestion and before MMM was a thing)...and then divorced a few years later. An unfriendly stock market and dividing by 2 meant I needed to start working again.

After 10 years of working, DH and I had stashed over double what exH and I had lean FIREd on...and I was still not ready. It took another 5 years of working to double the stash again before I felt ready...but I was still anxious.

The Rich, Broke, Dead calculator helped A LOT.

Forum members confirming that we had enough helped a lot.

Having passive income helped. Most of our basic expenses are covered by our rental income.

Having a large cash fund helped. By knowing that it would take years to draw it down removed anxiety of what would happen if the market crashed and we were forced to sell.

Not counting Social Security or potential inheritance helped since it let me know that our estimates had a lot of security built in.

Having an agreement that one or both of us would get easy jobs that provide health insurance if disaster strikes helped.

I also created spread sheets that detailed budgets corresponding to a 1%, 2% and 3% SWR, and I divided our stash into buckets to see what drawdown would look like. This step in particular made me realize we had more than enough. If she's analytical, I recommend that she do this exercise instead of you doing it. What does she think a reasonable budget and drawdown strategy look like? I had one budget where I assumed $3000 a month for health insurance because that was my biggest source of anxiety. When I saw on paper that we could sustain that indefinitely, my anxiety pretty much disappeared.

« Last Edit: March 26, 2021, 06:45:03 PM by Omy »

nirodha

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2021, 07:45:33 PM »
I also created spread sheets that detailed budgets corresponding to a 1%...

It sounds like you could be running around a 1% SWR at this point. Have you been able to tolerate an increase in consumption? What did or would trigger that?

We're running at what I think will be sub 3%, but depending how well we manage fear, could end up closer to 2%. Both of us struggle with going from "what's the least spend we can tolerate?" to "there's no point in dying rich!"

Omy

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2021, 09:20:55 PM »
With covid we were definitely around 1% SWR. Zero anxiety as our net worth has increased nicely since we FIREd in August 2019.

I'm ready to increase consumption (travel, eating out, home improvements) as soon as we're fully vaccinated in early May. Still no anxiety as our spending will likely remain under 2% SWR.

As we get deeper into this, I can see my confidence growing. And as we get older, I imagine there will be splurges (new vehicles, home upgrades, more charitable giving) since we can't take it with us.

amberfocus

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2021, 10:33:16 PM »
Eeesh. After months of discussions and walking through the estimates of what we can do - etc, I walk her through how I am going to tell my company next week - and she is starting to flip out. She is behind the idea she says - but very nervous about no income coming in case of X, Y, Z. I asked her what those were she she paused and said - what if the kids get sick, hurricane, etc. How do I quantify that? I get her anxiety flags are waving - I get it.

I have a plan for the health exchange, don't know what to say about hurricane other than we have house insurance, and I have no idea how to address her concerns of her unknown unknowns.

We are at a 2.5% but I could see us flexing up to a 2.7% if we tried.

She said she wants a detailed budget and plan - which I have the soft outlines of, but even if I develop that - detailing our proposed POST-Fire budget in more detail - developing estimates of average market returns, how we conduct the Roth ladder, even after that - I wonder if she will let us Fire.

How did you walk them through the path of the plan to ease their concern?
I already plan on showing the http://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/ chart.

Anyone else's SO go through this?

Yes. This may not be the story that you wanted to hear, but my SO got 11th hour cold feet last year when I was wanting to retire. I wound up giving in and doing OMY, because he thought (and I agreed that) the uncertainties surrounding the pandemic were so opaque. I'm kind of in shock that last minute jitters have not re-surfaced as I'm preparing to FIRE this year.

But to provide some more context... it was incredibly hard to get the SO on board with FIRE, because he simply had wildly lower risk tolerance than me (and my risk tolerance is already very low). It took five years of literally tracking every single outgoing penny before he finally believed that my spending projections were reasonable and not a far-flung fantasy. I couldn't get a target SWR out of him at all; he wouldn't even concede to 1%.

He's slowly come around to the notion that we have more than enough, but the final dealbeaker still is health insurance. For him, the anxiety of unforeseen catastrophic healthcare costs is much greater than the cost of continuing to work. So he's not going to retire until health insurance is either guaranteed by his employer (when he is age 55), or by the US government (when hell freezes over?).

I don't know how to change his mind on this, and I've stopped trying. I'm never going to convince him (or even myself, if I accept his premise that we should be able to financially handle the worst-case scenario on healthcare costs) that we've saved enough for Surprise Cancer. But we've reached a point where he is comfortable with me pulling the plug, and I think he's actually more satisfied knowing that he can support my desire to finally stop hustling and FIRE by backstopping health insurance and SORR with his job benefits and/or income if anything goes pear-shaped.

I don't know if you'd count us as a FIRE success, since one partner is not going to RE, but what did help him was time (six years worth), irrefutable evidence of the numbers/math being real (namely, dividends in > expenses out, 100% success rates on Monte Carlo), and (I hate to say it, but) massive brute force overkill on the savings front. But even all that didn't address the core anxiety re: healthcare costs, so half-RE is our compromise.

I hope you are able to come to an understanding with your SO regarding proceeding with FIRE. It is such a big leap that being aligned is critical. I know that I really needed the support of my partner or else the fear would get me, too.

Omy

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2021, 09:55:21 AM »
Once you're FIREd, he may see all the fun he's missing and decide to join you.

Abe Froman

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2021, 06:21:11 PM »

@Greystache - this is what I am forming here in the next few days. I have a simple month to month budget of utilities, food, taxes, Netflix, etc. I also have the current stache balances and how those are asset allocated (for growth estimation). Now just to put the two together, e.g. what does a monthly/yearly look like at 50, at 55, at 60. Assume new car, assume kids weddings, etc.

IN speaking to DW more yesterday - she just couldn't see the detail - couldn't see the plan.
She also is looking for controls - limits on various categories - and ways to limit risk. I did say the most important thing is transparency and communication - that will get us through. But I get her point.

@nirodha - I don't think it would be that hard to find another job if I needed to. (As I was mulling this idea with my retired neighbor - he indicated that "retiring" so early now - gives you that much more hireability later if you need it. I have a pretty good resume and there are many positions in my general area that I could apply for - even if I had to take a cut in salary.

Going to see if that book is at the library.

@Malcat - respect.

@amberfocus - you actually hit a concern my wife has WRT cancer. SO I went to https://costprojections.cancer.gov/annual.costs.html and selected the 2nd highest male concern and put an extrapolated cost increase into my projections (using the cfiresim 'add adjustment' fields at the bottom) for a potential financial hit at 60 years old - which would be 14 years from now.

...

So far - we talked more about it. I sent her my 10 sheet excel plan - showing projections all linked.
I still need to document what funds and from which account each year - but that should be easy enough.
The best part was just talking about it and - getting her to describe what she would like to do once we are retired. This included which family trip we could take per year before the kids go to college, etc.

Fingers crossed.






nirodha

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2021, 08:54:03 PM »
The first 3 chapters of Living Off Your Money are free on McClung's website:

http://livingoffyourmoney.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/LivingOffYourOwnMoney_eBook_FirstThreeChapters.pdf

The reading is dense, more like a textbook. You can get a sense if it suits you from the sample.

lhamo

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2021, 10:05:13 PM »
One of the things that has kept my very ornery Inner Bag Lady calm since we FIREd in 2015-16 is that we have a VERY large cash bucket. Several years of expenses. It is not financially optimal but it has been the appropriate strategy for a number of reasons.

It might help quell your SOs anxiety a bit if you bump up the cash bucket so there is plenty to ride out any unplanned expenses. With your SWR it is an easy adjustment.

Abe Froman

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2021, 06:41:22 AM »
One of the things that has kept my very ornery Inner Bag Lady calm since we FIREd in 2015-16 is that we have a VERY large cash bucket. Several years of expenses. It is not financially optimal but it has been the appropriate strategy for a number of reasons.

It might help quell your SOs anxiety a bit if you bump up the cash bucket so there is plenty to ride out any unplanned expenses. With your SWR it is an easy adjustment.

The Mrs likes that we have stored up over 2 years of cash (although I might take a portion and shuttle that between my checking and something like Ally).

But as for access/replenishment - do you use a bucket system of (1) cash<---(2) Bonds/Treasuries/FI <---- (3) equities ?
Or do you just go from (1) cash  <----- (2) my big stache ?

She was also concerned with the potential need to access funds quickly - if needed without too much of a penalty or tax. I described my plan for the Roth ladder, giving us access to principal in year 6 and beyond - but her eyes started to glaze over.





reeshau

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2021, 07:25:02 AM »
But as for access/replenishment - do you use a bucket system of (1) cash<---(2) Bonds/Treasuries/FI <---- (3) equities ?
Or do you just go from (1) cash  <----- (2) my big stache ?

With one year under my belt, I have and am planning to do the latter, with just a stock portfolio and a cash cushion.  With the caveat that last year was extraordinary, I have found that the turnover in my (actively managed) taxable account has more than enough "fruit ready for harvest" to replenish my cash.  And once the Roth conversions take hold, I can do that fully independently from managing income for ACA purposes.

It's a balancing act; I have a default annual plan, but last year and this year will instead follow the dictates of events.  That has me somewhat behind schedule in managing the growth of my trad IRA (ahead of RMD's) but I know I am also getting used to this new life, so I am rolling with it.  I will fill whatever income gap I have to optimize with a Roth conversion at the end of the year, after the year's events have unfolded.

2sk22

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2021, 08:36:26 AM »
One of the things that has kept my very ornery Inner Bag Lady calm since we FIREd in 2015-16 is that we have a VERY large cash bucket. Several years of expenses. It is not financially optimal but it has been the appropriate strategy for a number of reasons.

It might help quell your SOs anxiety a bit if you bump up the cash bucket so there is plenty to ride out any unplanned expenses. With your SWR it is an easy adjustment.

This was, in fact, exactly what it took for my wife and I to get comfortable with my retirement. I don't care what the experts say about the drag of keeping cash, having an adequate amount on hand will dampen a lot of the anxieties.

lhamo

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2021, 09:18:55 AM »
For us right now it is pretty much the latter -- one HUGE bucket of cash, the rest mostly in mutual funds.   Though I have a spread of target retirement funds in my retirement accounts that have varying percentages of bonds in them.  I'm thinking of using those as a kind of reverse glide path.

Our situation was kind of unusual in that we had a huge cash influx from the sale of a property in 2017 -- kept that in cash for a variety of reasons.   But I have also gone back and forth on how much of my personal brokerage account I have in cash.  Took some gains in early 2020 (good timing!)  and then reinvested some of that later in the year.   

nirodha

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2021, 09:54:15 AM »
I was drawn to the idea of buckets, before trying to setup my withdrawal strategy. When I got into it, I realized I have one portfolio. Cash is one of the assets in it. Getting more is a matter of reallocating. Because money is fungible, this might mean selling stocks in taxable for cash, then trading bonds in pre-tax (IRA/401k) for stocks. Once you know the desired asset allocation, it's all about running a low fee, tax optimized portfolio.


With half your retirement assets in taxable accounts, I wonder if the Roth ladder needs any attention. Since the account offers tax free growth and no RMDs, it is probably the last one you want to spend. Given your SWR, I'd be surprised if you ever touch it, let alone before age 59.5.

Roth conversions remain very useful for tax optimization, but the ladder might be an unnecessary complication.

I'd guess your priority needs to be reducing pre-tax accounts (IRA/401k), so taxes driven by RMDs don't eventually do it for you. This means holding your less tax efficient, slow growth assets in the IRA (ie bonds). The reduction strategy is a pain and very individual. It's an interplay of roth conversions, realized capital gains, ACA subsidies, marginal tax rate, dividends and (eventually) social security taxation. Your plan for long term care and longevity risk also enters the picture. Because state specific rules around income tax and healthcare enter, finding a one size fits all answer is tough.

There's a good spreadsheet floating around here to play with the year over year tax numbers:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/case-study-spreadsheet-updates/

RMDs are the biggest thread to your financial legacy.


It's a lot easier to sort this all out when you are not working, btw. So much more free time and mental energy.

amberfocus

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2021, 12:10:50 AM »
Once you're FIREd, he may see all the fun he's missing and decide to join you.

He may! But it needs to happen on his own time, with no pressure from me. I'm hoping that once he sees the (practically idiot-proof) financial plan in action, the new lifestyle, and me testing out the ACA (and it not blowing up in my face), he'll feel more comfortable, particularly if our stash grows even further in the meantime. But I have to be realistic about my chances.

@amberfocus - you actually hit a concern my wife has WRT cancer. SO I went to https://costprojections.cancer.gov/annual.costs.html and selected the 2nd highest male concern and put an extrapolated cost increase into my projections (using the cfiresim 'add adjustment' fields at the bottom) for a potential financial hit at 60 years old - which would be 14 years from now.

So I'm genuinely curious whether that tactic of accounting for potential cancer care costs worked for your partner. When I tried to address the healthcare cost concern by offering to recalibrate the post-FIRE budget based on gold-tier ACA plans and assuming hitting the OOP max every year, I was told that there is no ceiling for healthcare costs, so there was basically no point in trying to account for it. No amount of stash would be sufficient for the worst-case scenario; if he had a number, we could have gunned for it.

I do know that at least part of my SO's anxieties re: cancer stem from the unexpected discovery and subsequent surgical removal of a rare tumor a few years ago, at an age that is approximately three decades before these events typically occur. After he saw the bill for the surgery before insurance kicked in... he's just never going to feel safe, not after that sticker shock.

I get so defeated by the futility of trying to plan for astronomical medical costs in the US. But I also feel like if I knew I would die young of cancer, I might be more inclined to YOLO and FIRE. But then again, if it were me who had the cancer scare... maybe I'd want to keep working too, because the last thing I'd want is to drag my partner down into medical bankruptcy and ruin early retirement. I really wish it were as easy as barbells and salads, but it's not.

Abe Froman

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2021, 07:51:21 AM »

So I'm genuinely curious whether that tactic of accounting for potential cancer care costs worked for your partner. When I tried to address the healthcare cost concern by offering to recalibrate the post-FIRE budget based on gold-tier ACA plans and assuming hitting the OOP max every year, I was told that there is no ceiling for healthcare costs, so there was basically no point in trying to account for it. No amount of stash would be sufficient for the worst-case scenario; if he had a number, we could have gunned for it.

I do know that at least part of my SO's anxieties re: cancer stem from the unexpected discovery and subsequent surgical removal of a rare tumor a few years ago, at an age that is approximately three decades before these events typically occur. After he saw the bill for the surgery before insurance kicked in... he's just never going to feel safe, not after that sticker shock.

I get so defeated by the futility of trying to plan for astronomical medical costs in the US. But I also feel like if I knew I would die young of cancer, I might be more inclined to YOLO and FIRE. But then again, if it were me who had the cancer scare... maybe I'd want to keep working too, because the last thing I'd want is to drag my partner down into medical bankruptcy and ruin early retirement. I really wish it were as easy as barbells and salads, but it's not.

Since we have been lucky enough to not have direct personal experience with cancer - my SO and I do not have the sticker shock concern you speak of. For us though - it is something that we know we cannot buy or plan our way out of, but something to consider as to how to minimize the negative effects on the surviving family so as to at least - keep them on solid financial footing and not have another worry.
As I consider this - managing that risk is likely done in 3 ways; 1- maybe have an extra pot of money allocated for this type of critical care event - with which to address iniital diagnosis and treatment costs and to the extent possible - continuing care costs. 2 - perhaps consider cancer-critical care supplemental insurance. There are typically three varieties and for ~$40-$100/month can supplement costs not covered by the primary health insurance coverage. 3 - clean living. As you say barbells and salad wont likely solve it - but they may very well delay it and or slow it down.

So to that extent - her anxiety on this topic is not fully addressed - but a risk that we have a mitigation plan for, some of which we can take now.

In our discussion she raised some big concerns, low probability and high impact risks, like the cancer. And I said we cannot prepare for all of them, or save for all them. What we can do is take a measured approach to which ones we think we can mitigate and allow ourselves the opportunity to be flexible in the future. I think it is the flexibility in the future - that gives us our FIRE advantage (super-power?).

We have a family friend that is currently battling Stage 4 breast cancer - and of her group of 15 or 16 families whom she is connected with all with the same awful disease, 2/3 to 3/4 have passed away. She has a husband and two kids - all similar ages to us. And without prying - what I have seen her do is focus on the time with the family, taking on small crafting jobs here and there to simply fund extra vacations with the family. This has helped me form my (intended) approach of preparing some dollar amount allocated to mitigating and addressing the risk (possible cancer) and then limiting it to that, and then purposefully focusing the rest of the funds/time on the family. This is because I feel the risk of not doing these things with the FIRE capability - is a higher risk and higher impact - than realizing a cancer diagnosis, if that makes sense.

I feel preparing too much for the what-ifs, even the big red flashing loud klaxon of cancer, can too easily misdirect you on the true purpose of life's path, to make connections and memories with each other and yourself.
</sappy_diatribe>

LOL - and this is a prfext segue into @Sun_Hat 's point.

The idea is not to try to push the ideas away, but to look at them, again and again if necessary. I had a lot of unknowns at that point in my life Could I even go back to some form of work? What would my income be like? What was my future mental health going to be like? but the conclusion that I came to again and again and again was that despite all of the unknowns that I remained intelligent, resourceful, adaptable and could get by.

Maybe the biggest hurdle of looking yourself in the mirror - is acceptance. Accepting the risk(s) wholly, knowing you did what you reasonably could and should do to prepare, that there maybe some small remote chance that it wont work out somehow - and accepting that that, is OK. Its a form of accepting yourself - which is hard at least for me - and a growing and learning process I am about to take as I FIRE.

When did we stop taking chances - or caring so much - like when we did as a kid?
WHen did we start fearing failure? We would get back up on that bike, or act silly in a homemade play.
 




crowinghen

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2021, 08:42:45 AM »
 I just want to say that this thread ( and this forum!) are so very helpful! I'm currently in the midst of getting our home of 30 years ready to sell, move to a different area and retire all at once, and am routinely having to be talked off the ledge by my husband and myself.
The level of respect embraced here is so refreshing.
My strategy is to have a huge amount of cash on hand, not entirely quit my job, but go per diem. DH also has a trade that he can and is happy to work at in case we need/want extra money or fun money. Like many here we are resourceful, creative and adaptable if any of my fears actually do happen,
 It's still a bit scarey to step off the ledge!
edited for typos

« Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 09:29:01 AM by crowinghen »

Metalcat

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2021, 08:52:46 AM »
The thing is, most people will probably get cancer. The main cause of cancer is failing to die from heart disease first. So ironically, the healthier you are, the higher your cancer risk.

It's important to be realistic about health risks, both in terms of their likelihood, but also in terms of how real people normally handle them.

Most Americans aren't walking around with an extra million dollars to blow on healthcare costs, and yet millions of them get cancer every year. So how do they handle it. What realistically does it cost? How does one realistically prepare for it.

Also, how much of this is boogeyman thinking and how much of it is reasonable preparation. Whenever someone worries more about the risks of cancer, than say, far more expensive ongoing care health issues, it makes me think they're more afraid than prepared.

Cancer happens, sometimes it's a big deal, sometimes it isn't. On the financial front, and on the personal fear front, I'm a BILLION times more afraid of early onset Alzheimer's than I am of cancer, which I've had.

Health risks are a real life financial risk. Divorce is a more expensive and more likely real life financial risk, but you don't see people wringing their hands about that nearly as much.

Point being, you can't save your way out of anxiety about the future. You can reasonably prepare, but at a certain point, you need to process the underlying fear of the unknown in order to make responsible decisions in the present.


lhamo

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2021, 09:40:03 AM »
I wish everybody would read Being Mortal, whether they are trying to FIRE or not.

I am going in today for my follow up several weeks out from having a malignant tumor removed from my face.  Basal Cell Carcinoma, which has a low rate of recurrance and rarely metastasizes.  I was less worried about the diagnosis than the letter I got from my insurance saying payment for the first appointment had been denied.  Turns out that was a problem on the practice side, and I shouldn't have to pay anything.   But even if I do, I can handle a 5-10k bill for having a tumor cut off.   And if it does come back, or if I get some other ailment, I'll handle that too.  But I have already told my family I do not want to impoverish myself or them if I ever need treatment that is beyond my means to pay.   10- 20- 50 or even 100k to eradicate stage 1-2 cancer?  No problem -- I can afford that.   But endless rounds of chemo and radiation for a stage 4 that has metastasized?   Not if I have to pay a fortune for it, and most likely not even if it is free.  Put me on hospice and give me the drugs that will let me pass relatively peacefully.  We are trained in this country to think that when it comes to medical care you get everything you can regardless of the cost.  Nope.  Quality of life trumps length of life for me.   

Coming to terms with your own mortality really helps remove one of the biggest blocks many people have with FIRE.   I realized a few weeks ago that I am now older than my dad was when he died.   I've had a great life already.   And in spite of some challenges, the last nearly 6 years of being FIREd have been among my best.

Sibley

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2021, 07:12:15 PM »
I just want to say that this thread ( and this forum!) are so very helpful! I'm currently in the midst of getting our home of 30 years ready to sell, move to a different area and retire all at once, and am routinely having to be talked off the ledge by my husband and myself.
The level of respect embraced here is so refreshing.
My strategy is to have a huge amount of cash on hand, not entirely quit my job, but go per diem. DH also has a trade that he can and is happy to work at in case we need/want extra money or fun money. Like many here we are resourceful, creative and adaptable if any of my fears actually do happen,
 It's still a bit scarey to step off the ledge!
edited for typos

Good luck. But as someone with parents who are doing pretty much exactly what you're doing now (selling, moving, retiring), and one of those parents IS needing to be talked off a ledge almost daily - there is line at which you need to pull your shit together and just fucking DEAL, or get a professional to help you deal. Because after that line, you're damaging relationships. Now, this is totally my frustration talking, as my mother is damaging relationships, all of them, and while she has some limited awareness of this she isn't doing a damn thing about it. And she could be. I don't imply that you're at or past this point, just be aware that there IS a line and that you really don't want to cross it.

LaineyAZ

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2021, 08:40:04 PM »
lhamo,
I'm glad to read of someone else who has the same idea I have regarding paying for expensive medical treatment for advanced illness in older adults.

I'm a senior citizen now and am enjoying life, but I've already told my adult son that if I do get a dire diagnosis, I'm not going to spend my last dollar in hopes of gaining another year or two of life, especially if those last months require lots of chemotherapy, radiation and other invasive and exhausting procedures.
I don't see the point of prolonging life only to have to empty my bank account and sell my house to pay for it.  A lifetime of savings to be handed over to the medical establishment?  No thanks.

To that end, I've already signed the paperwork for Medical Power of Attorney, DNR, etc.  I hope it doesn't come to that, and like most people, I'm wishing for a peaceful exit where I go to sleep and don't wake up, but better to be realistic and let your family know what to expect in case of a critical medical circumstance.

Cassie

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2021, 11:07:49 PM »
Being Mortal was a good book. My friend fought stage 4 cancer for 20 years starting at age 46. It came back 8 times. Then her husband got it and he fought to. It took all their money but they were happy with their decision and died about a year apart.

lutorm

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2021, 01:50:27 AM »
On the financial front, and on the personal fear front, I'm a BILLION times more afraid of early onset Alzheimer's than I am of cancer, which I've had.
Indeed. I haven't had cancer, but I'm also much more afraid of losing my brain than my body.

I think one thing to keep in perspective in these discussions is that not only is a big buck health emergency a low probability event, but you should also consider that, if you run the simulations, the most likely outcome for a 3%WR, and even for a 4%WR, is that your stash grows to many times its initial amount by the time you die. In these cases you could probably easily afford a health emergency (as long as it doesn't happen too early). So to be really bad, there has to be a confluence of bad events: either you have to have a historically singularly bad market AND a health emergency. Or a health emergency and have it happen early during FIRE.

Put simply, if you have an annual FIRE budget of $X, it's extremely pessimistic to think that low-probability events will have to be handled on no more than $X. The most likely outcomes are either than you have a health emergency but have much, much more room than $X in the budget for it, or that you suffer a shitty market but never have to pay out for outrageous medical bills.

In aerospace, we talk about things being N-fault tolerant, i.e. N things all have to go wrong before the outcome is affected. 0-fault tolerant means no margin, anything brings you down, while a one-fault tolerant means you can handle a single failure, but not two. If the probabilities of the individual failures are small enough, then a one-fault tolerant system is considered good enough to trust human lives with it, because the probability of two (uncorrelated) unlikely events is the product of their individual probabilities, which is much, much less likely. Two-fault tolerance is needed for failures whose outcomes are particularly egregious or if the individual failure probabilities can't be pushed low enough.

2sk22

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Re: Her security anxiety is at a 9, how can I help her?
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2021, 04:22:57 AM »
I just want to say that this thread ( and this forum!) are so very helpful! I'm currently in the midst of getting our home of 30 years ready to sell, move to a different area and retire all at once, and am routinely having to be talked off the ledge by my husband and myself.
The level of respect embraced here is so refreshing.
My strategy is to have a huge amount of cash on hand, not entirely quit my job, but go per diem. DH also has a trade that he can and is happy to work at in case we need/want extra money or fun money. Like many here we are resourceful, creative and adaptable if any of my fears actually do happen,
 It's still a bit scarey to step off the ledge!
edited for typos

The psychological transition to early retirement is every bit as big an issue as the financial aspect. I am happy to be able to help others in what ever little way I can.

Years ago before our first child was born, we were given a copy of "What to expect when you're expecting". I think we need a similar book for the transition to early retirement :-)