Help me through this - private school instead of crappy school...

[djadziadax]

Mustachians with children - I have a dilemma. We are very close to our number for FI - where I would retire and my SO will keep working by their own choice.

We also have a child about to enter kindergarten and our zoned school is pretty horrible - 3/10 on great school, with only 22% of kids meeting grade level. So we did look at private and charter as an option.

We got accepted to a super fancy private school on financial aid (so tuition would be 10% of our household income, and we will still be able to save at a 40% rate, but perhaps my retirement will be delayed by 3 years as we want FAT FIRE), and got accepted to a charter which is free and good academics but has some major social drawbacks (extremely strict discipline code, where you would be returned home if you wear the wrong color socks as an example).

I am absolutely thorn on what to do - it is so anti-mustachian to pay for private school, but on the other hand, I also want my only child to be at a normal school environment where they actually learn something.

Help me get off the ledge - walk me through your thought process if you had to make a decision...our zoned schools is not an option and it is not an option to move as our housing is extremely cheap and enables us to save 50-60% of income (and therefore is in a somewhat crappy school zone).

I am at my wits end with worry..

[mrsnamemustache]

Have you visited your public school? Don’t make a decision until you do that. Scores don’t tell the whole story.

[djadziadax]

Have you visited your public school? Don’t make a decision until you do that. Scores don’t tell the whole story.

I have, it is pretty horrible.

[Another Reader]

My two questions would be what are other parents in the neighborhood doing and in which environment would my child be most likely to thrive?  You may have to visit all three choices to make a reasoned decision.  If most other parents in the neighborhood have opted out of the local public school, I would have a look but I would likely pass.

[djadziadax]

My two questions would be what are other parents in the neighborhood doing and in which environment would my child be most likely to thrive?  You may have to visit all three choices to make a reasoned decision.  If most other parents in the neighborhood have opted out of the local public school, I would have a look but I would likely pass.

Many parents have passed on the local school...only the very economically disadvantaged that cannot afford any other option stay.

Also due to the pandemic, we cannot visit the private and the charter - only Zoom sessions which we have attended.

Good advice on rethinking in what environment my child would thrive, and that is what gives me pause on the charter. But at the same time I play devils advocate with myself that kids can be resilient in many situations, and is it worth paying for many years to have the exact right environment. On the other hand, we only have one kid! I am so anxious...

[slappy]

Are you saying that you would retire around the time the child goes to school? If that is case, depending on the issues with the school, I would go with public and just make sure you are very involved. What do you mean when you say the school is horrible? What did you see when you visited?

[djadziadax]

Yes, planning to be retired in the next year if we stay with public, in 3 years if we go private. School itself is in a very old unmaintained building, disruptive classrooms, reports of major bullying, kids do not learn much (i.e. kids in 3 grade cant read well, math instruction is non existent) and forget about any enrichment classes such as art. Underfunded school with attrition problem mostly due to being Title I. Not an environment where I would want ANY kid to be in. People stay cause they have no other choices.

So more parent involvement on my part would not solve the issues.

[joe189man]

does your school district offer open enrollment? if so you could try another elementary school in the district. Would it be cheaper to move to a home in a better public school district vs paying for private school for 8+ years? this could be an unconventional option and you can easily do the math. If the first two options were a no go then i would do the private school.

[seemsright]

Mustachians with children - I have a dilemma. We are very close to our number for FI - where I would retire and my SO will keep working by their own choice.

We also have a child about to enter kindergarten and our zoned school is pretty horrible - 3/10 on great school, with only 22% of kids meeting grade level. So we did look at private and charter as an option.

We got accepted to a super fancy private school on financial aid (so tuition would be 10% of our household income, and we will still be able to save at a 40% rate, but perhaps my retirement will be delayed by 3 years as we want FAT FIRE), and got accepted to a charter which is free and good academics but has some major social drawbacks (extremely strict discipline code, where you would be returned home if you wear the wrong color socks as an example).

I am absolutely thorn on what to do - it is so anti-mustachian to pay for private school, but on the other hand, I also want my only child to be at a normal school environment where they actually learn something.

Help me get off the ledge - walk me through your thought process if you had to make a decision...our zoned schools is not an option and it is not an option to move as our housing is extremely cheap and enables us to save 50-60% of income (and therefore is in a somewhat crappy school zone).

I am at my wits end with worry..

Those school ratings are complete garbage. You have to take them with a grain of salt.

My kid goes to title 1 schools. They are fantastic. On paper they are crap. I think it is a 2/10 rating. I was able to work with the school and get my kid grade skipped because that is what she needed. They typically have way more staff than higher rated school. The elm school DD went to the average amount under the teachers belts was 20 years or something crazy like that. DD's 4th grade teacher was on his 38th year of teaching 4th grade...he had seen it all, and man that guy was amazing. I became 'that mom' and I was able to get meetings just about any time I needed them. To this day even after my kid moved to the middle school I get instant response...because they know I do not play.

I think based on what you have responded with you have all ready made up your mind. My attitude is I can pay for private school or I can pay for college. My kid is going to get more benefit out of us paying for college than private school.   

[MaybeBabyMustache]

What is the logic behind the extremely strict discipline code at the charter school? Presumably it's there for a reason? It sounds crazy on the surface, but I'd try to understand if the logic/general education philosophy is aligned with best practices that will help your child succeed, rather than focusing on a few examples that don't make sense.

 I'd also want to understand the overall feel of the parent group, and who sends their kids to the charter school. Do you know anyone else who attends the school? Can you reach out on Nextdoor or a similar alias & get feedback on the pros & cons, and how the discipline code applies or impacts learning?

[Blackeagle]

What if you FIREd and homeschooled?

Another possibility: I’ve been reading about how many schools may continue online options even after the pandemic is over for various groups of students for whom remote schooling is a better option.  Perhaps that, plus supplemental parental instruction post-FIRE might be an option.

[SunnyDays]

I was also thinking about home schooling.  It’s K-3.  How hard can it be?  If you still want private after that, then fine, although a “super fancy private school” is not a “normal school environment.”  Your two options are at opposite ends of the spectrum - maybe look for something that’s a compromise.  By the way, there’s bullying in every school, even private ones.  An elite boys’ school where I live had some horrendous things going on.

[charis]

Yes, planning to be retired in the next year if we stay with public, in 3 years if we go private. School itself is in a very old unmaintained building, disruptive classrooms, reports of major bullying, kids do not learn much (i.e. kids in 3 grade cant read well, math instruction is non existent) and forget about any enrichment classes such as art. Underfunded school with attrition problem mostly due to being Title I. Not an environment where I would want ANY kid to be in. People stay cause they have no other choices.

So more parent involvement on my part would not solve the issues.

What were the circumstances of your visit to the school? How did you hear about the bullying? And non existent math (that doesn't sound plausible)? There's no art/music, etc? And the classes are all disruptive? My kids go to  3/10 (just looked it up bc we didn't consider this BS "score" as a viable bit of info) school in a terrible district by most metrics and they are doing well.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

How smart is your child, and what is his or her disposition towards learning? Those things may not be entirely quantifiable at this young age, but they are important things to assess in time, because some children will thrive in environment A and some children will thrive in environment B.

If your child is fairly smart he or she might test into a gifted and talented program or get a full scholarship at some point down the track, so the schooling choice doesn't have to be a locked-in deal.

[Sibley]

Various thoughts....

If you're going to FIRE, then can you just move? You don't even need to move to a highly rated district, you just need to find a district that actually is decent, regardless of what test scores say.

Test scores tend to skew towards white, middle to upper class areas. That doesn't mean that a black, low class area can't have excellent schools, but it does mean that most likely those black low class areas with actually very good schools will have bad test scores.
 
It's easy to home school. It's hard to home school with the result of a well educated person.

Parental involvement is a huge predictor of kid's education outcomes, regardless of what school they're in.

Be very careful that you're not letting racism or classism or any other -isms skew your assessment of school options.

Your child will likely be better off in the long run being exposed to a wide variety of people - color, religion, economic status, etc. The world is diverse. Being comfortable with diversity is a very good thing.

You need to get a handle on your emotions. If you're an anxious mess, then you are not going to make a well reasoned decision, and more than that your kid is going to pick up on it and it will cause problems for them. If you pick a school that ends up being a bad choice, your kid will not be ruined for life.

[Fish Sweet]

Not gonna lie, I know a fair number of people who attended super expensive fancy private schools and still saw horrendous bullying and other issues (predatory teachers, plentiful drug use, issues swept under the rug in favor of protecting the school's reputation) so don't think that opting for the most expensive option is necessarily going to give your child the best start in life.  Prescription drug abuse especially can be a huge problem.

Honestly, unless there's really something hideously wrong with the public school (like idk huge scrawls of black mold growing across the ceiling), I'd enroll your kid there for the first year or two and use your time as a FIRED parent to plug in any gaps you see in their education - a present and caring adult can make up for a lot of shortcomings in schooling, and I haven't necessarily seen my peers from private schools do better than my peers from public schools (of high and low qualities.)  If your child is really not doing well at this school, you then have the option to enroll them in a different school or consider moving to a better district (and still save that money you would've spent on private school.)

Does your school have a large population of English Language Learners, or is there some other reason that the majority of the children there are doing so poorly?

[hounton]

I'll start off by saying my husband and I are cheap.  We are wash ziplock bacgs and hang our laundry to dry.  But I do pay for private school for our three children.  One way I look at it is that I could have paid three times the amount for a house in a neighborhood with good schools, but my paid off house is in a reasonable neighborhood with not so good schools.

When my daughter was in public school she was afraid to speak up.  At the all girls Catholic school she has found her voice and thrived.  She took all the honors and AP classes and she earned a lot of leadership positions.  She loves how the other students are serious and the classes are calm and studious.  Her peer group dreams of being doctors and going to Pomona.   Sure, it's not perfect but it's pretty great.  One thing she cited is that all of her teachers are completely professional.  At private school, she's never seen a teacher scream at a kid.  In public school this was pretty common and bad teachers are protected by their union.

I'm also happy to say that she earned a full scholarship to college.  She is a senior this year.  I'm not sure that would have happened if she was in a public school.  The private school offers a college counselor team that is different that personal counselors.  I'm so thankful and happy.

I feel like the reason that I'm being so careful with money is so that I can give my children the best.  I don't really have advice for you and I think you have to decide what is good for you and your family.  But I want you to know that not all Mustachians are against private school.

[mm1970]

My kids go to Title 1 schools, and we are currently a 3/10.  Our school is mostly poor (68%), mostly Latino (70%), and has a lot of English learners (45%).

My older kid was in GATE and is now in HS taking AP classes.
Kid #2 is in 3rd grade, and is doing great. 

I wouldn't let a 3/10 scare you away, but not all schools are the same.  We have transfer students from other schools that score 3/10 or 6/10 INTO our school.

We have people who transfer out, we have people transfer in.  We have people who tried the school and then transfer later.

[djadziadax]

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies, I needed to hear all the different opinions.

I will take all of that into account.

I am concerned that if a school environment is not conductive to learning my child will not do well - my kid is easily influenced by others unfortunate - we see that constantly with behavior at home that is picked up in preschool.

We are also inexperienced parents, as this is our first and only child and are anxious about not giving the best we can afford to the kid.

[AMandM]

My big concern with fancy private schools, even if financial aid means you don't have to pay a lot for them out of pocket, is that they surround your child with the children of rich people. It may be hard for your kid if everyone around him wears expensive clothes, has umpteen fancy gadgets, rides in luxury cars, eats at restaurants daily, etc.

If you will be retiring when your kid hits school age, you should definitely consider homeschooling. You get the benefits of parental involvement without having to work around any rigid requirements of the school, your time is more flexible, you can support your child's learning style and strengths, you can exert some (not total!) control over the influences your child is exposed to, you can avoid a lot  and the time spent together tends to build really strong family bonds.

I respectfully disagree with Sibley that

It's easy to home school. It's hard to home school with the result of a well educated person.

Of course it's harder to do anything well than poorly, but homeschooling well is almost certainly within the capacity of anyone on this forum. It takes some reflection, to decide what "well-educated" means to you; it takes some research, to figure out how best to achieve it; and it takes some time and attention and the humility to outsource what you need to. Happy to chat via PM if you like, OP.

[charis]

...decide what "well-educated" means to you...

This is so important.  Most parents default to the "best" that they can afford without really examining what that means to them.   What is the "best" to you?  How do you want/expect schooling to shape your child?  Are you hoping to throw money at the issue with the expectation that it's your best shot at a good outcome?   The best that one can afford is not necessarily the best for the child.  What are your specific fears when you think about sending your child to a "poor"/lower performing school?  What do you hope to be gained at the end of a private school career vs. a not so great public school?  Are your expectations reasonable?  Are there other layers to this decision that you could peel back and examine?

If you give public school a try for a year, what would be the harm in that?

[yachi]

I echo some of the questions regarding moving. 

We live in a cheap house in a really high-rated school district.  Sometimes I wonder why houses in our neighborhood don't cost 50% more than they do.  One daydream I've had regarding FIRE involves a move to Mexico for cheaper cost of living.  In this case, schooling would involve private schools and I don't see your situation as much different than this one.  Presumably your choice of living location provides a combination of: proximity to work, cheaper housing, walkability that reduces car use, or some other factors to balance the poorly-rated schools..

That said, I also understand the point that school ratings suck as a measure of your child's success.  There are good and bad schools that play the rating's game, and you certainly don't want to end up in a school that games the ratings: kids get pushed through without learning material, teacher's detention requests are denied by the principal, AP classes are restricted to the children most likely to ace the AP exams at the end.

But a lot of the things Mustachians value in neighborhoods: cheaper housing, walkability, proximity to work, are also things immigrant families value.  Children from these families while adjusting to a different way of life and a different language may just not test as well on standardized tests that make up a portion of school ratings.  And the cheaper housing attracts families with lower earnings that are more likely not to have college degrees.  You are just as likely to be looking at test results from a population of children whose parents have no college education (low-rated school) and comparing them to test results from a population of children whose parents have college educations (high-rates school).  Should the difference in performance be attributed to the school itself?

[simonsez]

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies, I needed to hear all the different opinions.

I will take all of that into account.

I am concerned that if a school environment is not conductive to learning my child will not do well - my kid is easily influenced by others unfortunate - we see that constantly with behavior at home that is picked up in preschool.

We are also inexperienced parents, as this is our first and only child and are anxious about not giving the best we can afford to the kid.

Just want to give kudos for you throwing it out there and being open to the widely varying, important, and sensitive topic of education.  You obviously care a great deal and thus, whichever option you choose I think you will be getting the most out of it.  Having an engaged parent that cares is the best case not only for the child but also the educator.  My only recommendations are 1) be proactive early in the school year to set up a rapport with the teacher (you're on the same team!) and 2) in case you do homeschooling, have some type of structure to let your child and yourself know that at certain times in a certain spot of the house, it's school time (i.e. practice hygiene, dress like going out of house, be organized, have a designated spot, have routine, etc.).  Good luck!

[shamilton]

The level of this discussion is so beautiful and perfect, you guys give me hope for humanity.

[CodingHare]

Just wanted to throw out there that homeschooling is not a panacea for education.  On paper, my homeschooling was super successful because I went on to college and graduation.  However, I've needed therapy to cope with the lack of social skills that environment gave me.  It also strained my relationship with my parents permanently.  Mixing the authority role of parent and teacher can be very rough on the parent child relationship.   Not saying it can't be done well, but homeschool parents sell it like it is the cure to all child educational needs.

[djadziadax]

...decide what "well-educated" means to you...

This is so important.  Most parents default to the "best" that they can afford without really examining what that means to them.   What is the "best" to you?  How do you want/expect schooling to shape your child?  Are you hoping to throw money at the issue with the expectation that it's your best shot at a good outcome?   The best that one can afford is not necessarily the best for the child.  What are your specific fears when you think about sending your child to a "poor"/lower performing school?  What do you hope to be gained at the end of a private school career vs. a not so great public school?  Are your expectations reasonable?  Are there other layers to this decision that you could peel back and examine?

If you give public school a try for a year, what would be the harm in that?

Thank you, these are the exact questions I needed someone else to ask of me. Yes, I do not want this discussion to be about the merits of public v. charter v. private schools because it does not answer the questions above and everyone has such a different set of background and exceptions about schooling. The testing part of it is to make sure that a school is providing at least an "average" education to the students, i.e. at least half the students cover common core (which is a very low bar anyway).

So yes, we have a very well defined idea of what academically  a "well-educated" person is and that stems from our experiences, and that is expressed in high academic rigor (think Singapore or Finland). It does not mean hours or homework, and hours spend in school. But it means proficiency in math, and exposure to a wide and deep reading material and writing expectations. When we were growing up, doing algebra in 6th grade was standard for all students, and not incredibly challenging with the right instructor, and now due to common core, algebra is taught in 9th grade! The wirting I had to do in 5 and 6th grade is HS level now. I did not think that impossible.

Of course, a well educated person to us is someone who has also been exposed to many different people and situations, and in addition to academics, has build a system of solving problems no matter the matter of the problem. A well educated person should know about relationship buidling and marketing themselves. So it is not about academics only.

Those are things that can be though and passed as "wisdom" to anyone no matter their innate academic potential but it needs the environment to foster it.

That is why I am flip-flopping and cannot decide what to do - it is hard to judge any of those schools on the non-academic items, but many fail our bar not by a little, but by a lot, even on the academics.

So I guess all these responses are helping me crystalize this, and it is not the "type" of school, but what we want the outcome to be and how much effort it would take to get there.

Homeschooling
I have seriously though about homeschooling also, but in our community there is outright hostility to homeschooling, and a very small community of home schoolers. From what I have read, a good homeschooling coop is really almost a requirement so there is the socialization and making friends piece. We also have only one child so no build in socialization with siblings.

Charter
Our charter is high achieving academically but it get there through very strict homeroom discipline so that the 30 odd kids do not create a chaotic environment. So the discipline is directly responsible for the good academics. But that discipline (and I have talked to many parents from that charter) is almost akin to boot-camp, where the teacher is the drill sargent and the students learn the code and abide by it. The issue is not the style but rather, how my child when ready to transfer to middle school will transition from a strong teacher directed and mandated code to a more regular school. If you are familiar with KIPP academy our charter takes the same approach.

Private and Public
I am very aware of the social issues that can arise, but this particular private is catholic, and many are not ultra rich - they have 20% of the class on financial aid. I am not so concerned with the social aspect because I have gathered info that you can definitely find your group, even if not rich. The issue I have with the school is the money even though we could probably "afford" it. If the school was half of what the tuition we have to pay was, I would enroll there in a minute because it represents a some balance between academics/extras/social exposure.
I just have a hard time justifying the money if we have a free option (public or charter) but that would have to be heavily supplemented with other things that other public schools in better districts have such as instrument, orchestra, language, stronger academics, etc.

Anyway, a long rant mostly to get all those thoughts out of my head.

Comments welcome.

[djadziadax]

...decide what "well-educated" means to you...

If you give public school a try for a year, what would be the harm in that?

To add: this particular private has only three entry points - K, 6th, and 9th grades. They do not take kids in between grades.

[Chrissy]

We were in the same situation in Chicago.  We weren't swayed by the low ratings; we went to see the environment for ourselves... and we chose the private school.  It was 5% of our income, and not fancy, but had really good-hearted teachers & staff, and developmentally appropriate standards for the kids!  The latter seem to be missing from your charter-school option.

A key element to choosing the private school:  we can change our mind at any time put our daughter in the public school, but we can't do the reverse!  There are waiting lists for the private schools in the area.

[TheFrenchCat]

We're sending our daughter to the local catholic school, partially because the public school where we live is so awful.  But we want to live here to be close to family.  To us it's definitely worth the money, though our tuition is only $5,500 a year.  Doing virtual school this year has reinforced to me that homeschooling wouldn't be a good option for us.  And unfortunately that charter doesn't sound great; I think kids need to learn to work without someone breathing down their neck about it.  So, for us, living where we want and sending our daughter to the school we want is worth delaying FIRE.  But I get your anxiety; it's not an easy decision.

[scantee]

If it were me I would go with the public school at least for K and then make a judgement after a year. Echoing what others have said: Great Schools is a garbage website and ‘rumors’ from parents about school quality are often them just projecting their own anxieties.

I used to be an education researcher so I’ve spent way more time than your typical parent looking at the data on school quality. Most parents have no clue what they are talking about when it comes to this topic. When my kids were little and I was contemplating which school to send them to I would often hear other parents confidently state that certain schools in our city were bad. So I’d go and actually look at the data and it was almost never nearly as bad as these parents thought. Frequently these “bad” urban schools had higher test scores than the “good” suburban schools!

One more evidence-based tidbit you should know: kindergarten doesn’t matter. It just doesn’t! It has basically no impact on kids’ long-term outcomes. Understanding that, I would (and did) just send my kid to the local school (poorly rated on GS) knowing that we could always switch it up if necessary. It’s a great school and I’m still  happy with the decision after six years.

[djadziadax]

If it were me I would go with the public school at least for K and then make a judgement after a year. Echoing what others have said: Great Schools is a garbage website and ‘rumors’ from parents about school quality are often them just projecting their own anxieties.

I used to be an education researcher so I’ve spent way more time than your typical parent looking at the data on school quality. Most parents have no clue what they are talking about when it comes to this topic. When my kids were little and I was contemplating which school to send them to I would often hear other parents confidently state that certain schools in our city were bad. So I’d go and actually look at the data and it was almost never nearly as bad as these parents thought. Frequently these “bad” urban schools had higher test scores than the “good” suburban schools!

One more evidence-based tidbit you should know: kindergarten doesn’t matter. It just doesn’t! It has basically no impact on kids’ long-term outcomes. Understanding that, I would (and did) just send my kid to the local school (poorly rated on GS) knowing that we could always switch it up if necessary. It’s a great school and I’m still  happy with the decision after six years.

Yes, I did that too - I downloaded the assessment results for all schools in the district, for math and ela, where you can see 5 years worth of data for each grade for each school by race, socio-economic status and ELL. I do have "evidence-based" understanding of school performance relative to other schools and yes, white students usually do better than black and brown mostly due to family resources.

Basically I have done hours and hours of research and still cannot make up my mind! That is why I am looking for a sounding board.

[economista]

This is a topic that I am quite passionate about. I have a master's degree in economics and my graduate research focused on education inequality. There are TONS of studies that show the biggest indicator of whether a child will do well academically or not is parental involvement. (As long as the child is neuro-typical) a child who has very motivated, involved parents will do well regardless of what school they go to.

The reason why private schools have such high scores on school ratings is because of selection bias - the families that care strongly about education are segregating themselves in the private schools and the public schools are left with the families that aren't as involved (whether its due to lack of care or lack of means/resources/time/etc). On the public school level, the very involved parents tend to segregate themselves in the neighborhoods that have the high performing public schools, thus perpetuating the differences between the schools. However, this is bad on a societal level because there are really strong community-level effects of having involved parents in all of the schools. When you have involved parents at low performing schools, they can make a huge impact that benefits lots of the students, not just their own children. This is one of the strongest arguments for making private schools illegal. The countries where private schools have been banned and all students attend public education are the same countries that have the highest educational attainment across the population and the least amount of educational inequality. You mentioned Finland in an earlier response - that is one of the countries that has banned private schools, and they have had amazing outcomes because of it!

However, all that being said, this is a decision that only you (and your spouse) can make. I obviously have strong feelings about it but public school isn't even set in stone for my family, because my husband is a very devout catholic and feels equally as strongly about our daughters going to Catholic school. Thank goodness they are both under 2 and so we have some time to figure it out :D

[djadziadax]

This is a topic that I am quite passionate about. I have a master's degree in economics and my graduate research focused on education inequality. There are TONS of studies that show the biggest indicator of whether a child will do well academically or not is parental involvement. (As long as the child is neuro-typical) a child who has very motivated, involved parents will do well regardless of what school they go to.

The reason why private schools have such high scores on school ratings is because of selection bias - the families that care strongly about education are segregating themselves in the private schools and the public schools are left with the families that aren't as involved (whether its due to lack of care or lack of means/resources/time/etc). On the public school level, the very involved parents tend to segregate themselves in the neighborhoods that have the high performing public schools, thus perpetuating the differences between the schools. However, this is bad on a societal level because there are really strong community-level effects of having involved parents in all of the schools. When you have involved parents at low performing schools, they can make a huge impact that benefits lots of the students, not just their own children. This is one of the strongest arguments for making private schools illegal. The countries where private schools have been banned and all students attend public education are the same countries that have the highest educational attainment across the population and the least amount of educational inequality. You mentioned Finland in an earlier response - that is one of the countries that has banned private schools, and they have had amazing outcomes because of it!

However, all that being said, this is a decision that only you (and your spouse) can make. I obviously have strong feelings about it but public school isn't even set in stone for my family, because my husband is a very devout catholic and feels equally as strongly about our daughters going to Catholic school. Thank goodness they are both under 2 and so we have some time to figure it out :D

Yes, I have to agree with some of that since the entire set of Eastern Block countries did not have private school, and indeed academics were very good.

The reality in the US is that private schools will not be banned (unless the country veers in the far left social democratic politics like Finland) but even if that would to happen if would not be for my kid.

So we are left with the current reality and how to navigate it, in the coming year!

[AMandM]

To me the question about the charter school is whether the children come to internalize the discipline. Do they move on to middle school as well-regulated, self-disciplined students, or to they collapse without the external pressures? You mentioned that you've talked to a lot of parents from that school. Maybe you can ask them this question?

It can definitely go either way. In university I knew a brother and sister who had grown up in a sort of hippie family with no TV. The brother found the TV in his dorm's common room and spent most of his first year in there. The sister, OTOH, was one of the most focused and independent people I've ever met.

[Assetup]

You said your kid is easily influenced and if that's a risk in your mind and you're worried the public school in your district is a risk to your kid's future then definitely get your kid in a new school.  I went to a middle school that was rated terribly and it led some of my peers down a bad path and even a few got pregnant in middle school.  It's great to say those schools aren't always bad and your child can help improve them but I feel lucky to get out of that place in one piece.  That being said I think having that experience and getting through it without something crippling my future has helped me in the long run.  So it's a tough thing to weigh and depends on your child's personality.

I'll echo others and say look into homeschooling and I didn't see it brought up but maybe move to another neighborhood with a better district.  I realize moving isn't ideal and costs a ton but if you wanted to move when you hit Fat FIRE maybe you can move that forward a bit.  Just by asking this question and thinking through all the dynamic issues involved I'm sure you'll make the best choice for your child. 

Sent from my moto g(6) plus using Tapatalk

[djadziadax]

Also having so many choices is a blessing and a curse - it introduces the tiny details exaggeration syndrom that MMM talks about and that struck me as such an incredibly profound insight.

[scantee]

If it were me I would go with the public school at least for K and then make a judgement after a year. Echoing what others have said: Great Schools is a garbage website and ‘rumors’ from parents about school quality are often them just projecting their own anxieties.

I used to be an education researcher so I’ve spent way more time than your typical parent looking at the data on school quality. Most parents have no clue what they are talking about when it comes to this topic. When my kids were little and I was contemplating which school to send them to I would often hear other parents confidently state that certain schools in our city were bad. So I’d go and actually look at the data and it was almost never nearly as bad as these parents thought. Frequently these “bad” urban schools had higher test scores than the “good” suburban schools!

One more evidence-based tidbit you should know: kindergarten doesn’t matter. It just doesn’t! It has basically no impact on kids’ long-term outcomes. Understanding that, I would (and did) just send my kid to the local school (poorly rated on GS) knowing that we could always switch it up if necessary. It’s a great school and I’m still  happy with the decision after six years.

Yes, I did that too - I downloaded the assessment results for all schools in the district, for math and ela, where you can see 5 years worth of data for each grade for each school by race, socio-economic status and ELL. I do have "evidence-based" understanding of school performance relative to other schools and yes, white students usually do better than black and brown mostly due to family resources.

Basically I have done hours and hours of research and still cannot make up my mind! That is why I am looking for a sounding board.

[/]

So you’ve done a lot of research and you don’t believe the public school meets your minimum standards. It really seems like you don’t want to send your kid to the public school (which is totally fine). Another way to put it: what would you need to see from the public school to make you choose it? Is there truly anything that could redeem it for you? Best to take it off the list and move on to other options if there is no way for this school to meet your basic needs.

[Goldielocks]

A couple new thoughts not yet addressed:
1.  The zone school is often walking distance.  That made a huge difference for our family and allowed the kids to chill and be kids and connect with us more (and with friends after school, assuming you like those kids).   Cutting out the car commute / drop off made a big difference.

2. Bullying doesn't really start until grade 3 or later, in my experience as a parent of a bullied kid.  The little kids are awesome, even the ones from troubled homes.  That little ADHD boy that hits is just as likely to be in the private school (where he may be more likely get extra help to overcome antisocial behaviours, but it takes a while.  Religious private schools tend to not have resources for this, though, so it just becomes very bad until the kid is kicked out.  Most public schools have some resources for these challenges).

3.  You will likely want to pay for private music lessons (e.g piano, art) or group sports (gymnastics, dance)  after school, anyway, where you kid will mingle at lot with non-school kids where parents have money.   

4. You will also be the involved parent teaching your kid math through fun activities (baking?) and reading extra every night.  Maybe even be able to pay for a speech therapist or other help if needed.  This, and your above average vocabulary in everyday use will be the largest factor in your child's early success.

What you really need is a kind teacher with a huge smile for kindergarten / grade one.

[djadziadax]

I wanted to post it here because:

1. I have not made up my mind completely which direction to take (and got some nice advice about trying to get into a different public that may be under enrolled or has open spots)
2. Was looking for a sounding board to see if any of my simplified thoughts was just super silly to most
3. Wanted to hear from more experienced parents
4. Hoped to see though processes of those who have had similar situations
5. Hope to hear about outcomes from different situation

Thankfully this community is awesome and has provided all of that plus some. I wanted to be challanged on any assumptions and was worried I have missed something.

[mozar]

Bullying doesn't really start until grade 3 or later, in my experience as a parent of a bullied kid.

Basically. You're not going to see girls getting pregnant and drugs/guns brought into school/ constant fights until middle school or later. Since it's easier to discipline a little kid, elementary schools tend to be pretty similar. What a lot of parents do in my area is put their kids in the local elementary school, then save up to move to an area with "good" schools for middle school and high school. The result of which is that elementary schools tend to be more de-segregated in my area, and high schools are very segregated.

Some people have their kids do private school from k-5th grade as a sort of "foundation."
So it's not all or nothing.

I went to a Jehovah's witness private school from 4th to 10th grade. As an atheist, i did not enjoy the religious aspects. At the same time, I found that my teachers were more lenient on me than public school teachers. I think they assumed that my parents had money so I was going to be alright no matter what.

[charis]

I agree that it sounds like you don't want to pick the public school and are looking for someone to convince you otherwise. That's probably not going to happen.  Part of this decision requires a leap of faith, and I support parents in whatever decision they make about school even if I wouldn't choose the same.  It's very hard to discuss different parenting decisions without making some people feel a bit defensive.

I am a big supporter of public school and agree with the poster who wrote about how private school harms outcomes for public school children.  Thus I am personally trying to not be part of that problem.  As a parent of some means, I have no problem spending the money I would have spent on private school tuition on enrichment activities for my children if it means that they can attend public school and be successful students/citizens. (I recognize that this is somewhat hypocritical and I support changes to the system that will improve educational outcomes for all students, not just the wealthier ones).

[seemsright]

If it were me I would go with the public school at least for K and then make a judgement after a year. Echoing what others have said: Great Schools is a garbage website and ‘rumors’ from parents about school quality are often them just projecting their own anxieties.

I used to be an education researcher so I’ve spent way more time than your typical parent looking at the data on school quality. Most parents have no clue what they are talking about when it comes to this topic. When my kids were little and I was contemplating which school to send them to I would often hear other parents confidently state that certain schools in our city were bad. So I’d go and actually look at the data and it was almost never nearly as bad as these parents thought. Frequently these “bad” urban schools had higher test scores than the “good” suburban schools!

One more evidence-based tidbit you should know: kindergarten doesn’t matter. It just doesn’t! It has basically no impact on kids’ long-term outcomes. Understanding that, I would (and did) just send my kid to the local school (poorly rated on GS) knowing that we could always switch it up if necessary. It’s a great school and I’m still  happy with the decision after six years.

Yes, I did that too - I downloaded the assessment results for all schools in the district, for math and ela, where you can see 5 years worth of data for each grade for each school by race, socio-economic status and ELL. I do have "evidence-based" understanding of school performance relative to other schools and yes, white students usually do better than black and brown mostly due to family resources.

Basically I have done hours and hours of research and still cannot make up my mind! That is why I am looking for a sounding board.

Again you have to take that income data with a grain of salt. With a title 1 school they want you to fill out income paperwork. We do not do it. We just ignore it, until they push the issue then we tell them nope we refuse to fill it out. So even if you have the data that is available to you, it is not the full picture.

[Cranky]

What is "terrible" about the public school? Are the teachers terrible? Is the roof falling in? Are there 50 kids in a class? (don't laugh - my mom taught a class of 5th graders with that many kids.)

I sent my kids, mostly, to public school. They were not highly rated, because they were low income, and that's pretty much what those test scores tell you. As fair as I'm concerned, the only test scores that mattered for *my* kids were their own, and their scores were excellent. They learned things in school beyond academics, like not everyone has a refrigerator full of food, and those things were invaluable. Frankly, I was able to cover any academic deficiencies they ran into.

Not every school is the right fit for every kid. I myself taught at a small private Montessori school, and it was a great place for some kids, and not for others. I didn't send my own kids there. One of my kids went to Catholic high school for two years, believing that people would be nicer there, and they weren't. One of my kids went away for two years of boarding school and got an IB.

Your kid is 4 or 5. Guess what? Every kid that age is easily influenced. There are awful people in private schools. There are great people in poor public schools.

I would not send my kid to a charter school, unless it was a university lab school, maybe. In Ohio, the charter schools actually have *lower* test scores than the low income urban schools. I also don't believe in sucking money out of the public system.

Send your kid to kindergarten in the public school. Get involved. Volunteer in the school. You can always change later on, if you really don't think it's working.

I will also point out that private schools (and most charter schools) offer many fewer services for special needs kids, and subtly weed those kids out.

[mountainmama]

Many public school systems do lotteries, if you would like your child to go to a different school than you are zoned for. My children went through this process and we are satisfied we made the right choice.

[Dicey]

I went to Catholic School. The rules were strict. Uniforms, lining up, no talking at certain times, no nonsense. I'm grateful for the education I got there every day of my life.

Also, Kristen over at The Frugal has a lot of good content on homeschooling.

[mm1970]

So yes, we have a very well defined idea of what academically  a "well-educated" person is and that stems from our experiences, and that is expressed in high academic rigor (think Singapore or Finland). It does not mean hours or homework, and hours spend in school. But it means proficiency in math, and exposure to a wide and deep reading material and writing expectations. When we were growing up, doing algebra in 6th grade was standard for all students, and not incredibly challenging with the right instructor, and now due to common core, algebra is taught in 9th grade! The wirting I had to do in 5 and 6th grade is HS level now. I did not think that impossible.

We can do algebra in 7th grade here in California.  It's the math compaction class.  I think typically kids do it in 8th grade. 

Back in the dark ages, I had algebra in 7th grade.

[TrMama]

. . . (As long as the child is neuro-typical) . . .

With all due respect, you don't actually know yet if your child is neuro-typical yet or not. I certainly didn't know one of my children was dyslexic with ADD until they were in 4th grade. We learned they were gay in 6th grade and non-binary last month (9th grade). Luckily, this teenager has always gone to schools that at least had some ability to be  flexible with their education and I was able to advocate to make improvements in the things they weren't so great at. Some of the options you've presented frankly sound awful and I'd look into what options were available elsewhere, even it if meant moving.

Now, at kindergarten age I wouldn't go borrowing trouble by making sure the school you choose can cater to all possible problems, but I would leave your options open as much as possible. Even if that means delaying FIRE. I'm not willing to FIRE if it means my kids will suffer and I bet you wouldn't either.

Think long term. Kindergarten is easy, but it only lasts for 10 months. Homeschooling is fine too, but by the time your child is a young teen they're probably going to want to hang out with someone other than you. For many kids, that means school of some sort. If your FIRE plan doesn't allow for some flexibility then it may need some tweaking.

[Abe]

Work longer and send them to the school you think they’ll do well at. None of us know enough about your child or your area’s school to make anything other than general statements. School quality is so ridiculously variable. Keeping in mind the warnings about jumping to conclusion, if we take what you tell us at face value, sounds to me that the private school is the way to go. It’s just another 3 years of work, so figure a way to deal with a bad work environment and your kid won’t have to deal with a bad school environment.

[ditheca]

... and got accepted to a charter which is free and good academics but has some major social drawbacks (extremely strict discipline code, where you would be returned home if you wear the wrong color socks...

Are you strongly considering paying 10% of your income to give your child a choice of sock colors?

My kids are having excellent results from our local Charter school. They don't enjoy wearing "uniforms" (required colors), but we have no complaints about the education they are receiving.

[Metalcat]

Okay, I have a few thoughts:

1: Unless I'm wrong, you don't have to decide your child's entire academic pathway right now. Don't stress so much, you can always switch their schooling if any one of the schools doesn't seem like a good fit.

2: If private school really is the ideal fit for your kid (doubtful, but let's imagine), then what the fuck are you saving for if not to be able to provide a good life for your child??? You say you want Fat FIRE, so I know it's not a wealth issue. I just can't fathom your personal luxury being more important than your kid's education.

3: It's really not hard to supplement your child's learning at public school, especially if you are not working. There's no reason to worry about academics if you have the time and inclination to work with them, or you can even hire a tutor if you are hopeless at a given subject. You can also obviously afford whatever activities and clubs the public school doesn't provide.

4: Where the hell do the kids in your area go? If the public school is really that bad, then they must be mostly going to the private school, which means the private school population is largely made up of the normal middle class kids in your area, whose parents won't send them to the horrid public school. Is this the sense you get? That the private school is the default for families in your area/circumstance? Or are they mostly sending their kids to the public school? Find out what the typical parent in your area choose, and why. You can't be the only people in your situation. Talk to your neighbours.

You're not the first parent in your area to debate this issue, tap into theextensive experience of the parents around you.

5: Any school can be awful. I went to an elite high school, which was amazing for me, but almost all of the kids were from private middle schools, and the stories made my skin crawl, and the established patterns of bullying were very intense. We had a number of suicides. Kids can be horrible, kids from money aren't necessarily less horrible.

6: Since academics really don't matter, because you can easily supplement them at home, what really matters is fit for your kid, and that's going to come down to whether or not she finds a solid friend group, and that could happen at any of the three possible schools. So just focus on being an involved parent who can tell when their kid is thriving, and make appropriate adjustments as needed.

Basically, you really don't need to make more of this decision than it really is.