Author Topic: Hello, and ready for the facepunches  (Read 4122 times)

fadedsunrise

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Hello, and ready for the facepunches
« on: February 27, 2014, 03:52:35 PM »
I'm fadedsunrise, 23, and a second year law student who has recently become incredibly sick of her own financial stupidity and entitled habits. I've been lurking around the MMM forums without registering, but have decided to bite the bullet today. Let me try to condense my story down into an organized short form:

Family/Living Situation
I live at home with my parents and commute 2.5 hrs daily, round trip, by train/car to law school and part time job. While I've read the costs of commuting article and agree with its sentiments, I couldn't justify taking out more loans to live closer to school when my parents so graciously offered to house me rent/expenses free. I do study incredibly well on the train, since I've always preferred white noise to libraries, and can blow through 40-50 pages of reading on my commute per day.

I'd take a bus to the train station instead of drive, but the buses in my area run so slowly that it might add another hour easily to my commute.

Income...or what little of it there is
Currently I make about 700-800 a month at $15 an hour working as a law clerk for a small firm. When there is a break (such as Presidents Day) I always increase my hours, to try to earn as much as possible to offset what my parents are providing. This is sadly both exhausting and not much money, since the days I work I also go to my one constant hobby (taekwondo). With work, taekwondo, and commuting, my day is 12-14 hrs 3x a week.

I have about 10k between a checking and savings account, from odd periods throughout childhood when I tutored for min. wage and didn't spend any of it.

In law school, one usually works full time during the summers. This summer I will probably stay at this firm but do one of two things during the nights: (1) pick up a research assistant job for 10-12 hrs that I can do remotely, which is $13/hour, (2) take community college course in coding, so that I could contribute to my dad's  business as a way of indirectly paying living expenses, or so that I could think about a side photography business down the line.

Major Income Drains...of which there is too many
The first major income drain is the loans for school! If I could go back and facepunch 18 year old faded, I would tell her to have taken that offer to UCSD for mechanical engineering...but that is water under the bridge at this point. I will have 62.5k in federal stafford loans at the end of law school (1 year at 6.8%, this year at 5.41% after that new bill). I have 30k in scholarship from the school, and the rest of the tuition so far is an interest free loan from another relative. (I'm not sure whether I should be incredibly grateful for generous family or bemoan my ability to not let them talk me into taking these things).

For personal spending, I know I need to cut way down on coffee and eating out. However, this is really hard for me as a commuter student. I would love to host dinner parties at my own apartment, but I don't rent near the school, and many of my friends don't have cars to drive down to my city even if my parents would be willing for me to host. I would love to go to THEIR dinner parties, but they are often late nights when the trains run something like every hour. I also go to a private school, where many students don't have loans at all, so I am already a social outcast for mostly bringing my lunch and slinging 2-3 bags of books and taekwondo gear from the train. I would estimate I spend ~$200 a month on coffee/eating out, and this site really makes me feel like it should be less than $50, if that. The last time I drank was a $6 glass of wine at a networking event last month.

A few years ago food was even MORE of a money drain, as I binge ate due to depression and low self esteem (hated being 6' tall, wasn't a top student). Thankfully, this is under control, so I sometimes remind myself of it as a "hey, this could be much worse!"

The last big drain is probably clothes. I haven't bought clothes since I stopped growing, but there was about a year, 3 years ago, where I grew half a foot and basically outgrew my entire wardrobe. I hadn't known of any cheap sources of clothes for women with 35 inch inseams and similarly long arms, so most things I bought then/occasionally buy now are at full retail price, or the men's style. Because of this, I've also slipped up sometimes when I'm at the mall and shouldn't be, and actually find something in my size then immediately buy it.

The last is not a money drain, but more educational. Despite my parents/extended family being generous, they have never taught me the first thing about personal finance. If I say I read x article and ask a question, they'll answer it briefly, but otherwise they say their philosophy from being immigrant parents is to provide for my needs. In response, I simply tried to want as little as possible, but this hasn't actually given me a plan and instead I sporadically wild spend while being in debt.

TL;DR; I can't wait to graduate and have an income, pay off my loans, and actually have the ability to put more of MMM into practice. I have no one but myself to blame for not practicing personal finance wisely during college, so feel free to facepunch/roundhouse kick me as hard as you all like!

2527

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Re: Hello, and ready for the facepunches
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2014, 05:21:52 PM »
Can't reverse your decision to go to law school…might as well finish your degree.
Living at home sounds like a good deal…might as well stick with it.
Try to cut down on the expense of your socializing.  Focus on quality socializing, and interacting with people.
You will have lots of chances to learn about money management on this website.

Regarding being an outcast at school because you are a commuter, and others seem to have more money….stop feeling sorry for yourself and push through it and get it done.  The first black students at West Point went through 4 years with NOBODY even talking to them. 

Most important thing is finishing your degree and finding a job.  FWIW, if you can't find a job as a lawyer, I work as a contracting officer for the federal government and we have several lawyers working in that capacity.  It's a nice life, and related to law. 

Welcome and good luck!

« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 05:23:47 PM by 2527 »

dragoncar

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Re: Hello, and ready for the facepunches
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2014, 09:57:57 PM »
What school and year?  I think living with parents is the right choice when you are in school

fadedsunrise

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Re: Hello, and ready for the facepunches
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2014, 10:26:28 PM »
Regarding being an outcast at school because you are a commuter, and others seem to have more money….stop feeling sorry for yourself and push through it and get it done.  The first black students at West Point went through 4 years with NOBODY even talking to them. 

Re this: It's kind of a black hole actually. I'd like more of a social life, then I hate myself for feeling sorry for myself, then I hate myself for thinking about it at all, or hating myself. I obviously need to work on stoicism.

mahina

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Re: Hello, and ready for the facepunches
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2014, 02:25:21 AM »
seems to me you're working incredibly hard towards a goal, and deserve praise and respect. yes, you have debts, yes you occasionally buy an item of clothing or a glass of wine. living with your parents, studying on the train, taking extra jobs-- you're in a challenging stage of life right now. the fact that you're reading and learning here says you're preparing yourself for the next stage, too. when you do have some money, and no longer have to deny yourself so much, you'll be less likely to go crazy spending on whim and luxury. now that your eyes are open, and you can look ahead to how you want to conduct yourself as your life shifts away from school and parents, you can appreciate the practical advice here for continuing on a frugal path, and using new income for future pleasure and security. very best to you, sunrise.

cynthia1848

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Re: Hello, and ready for the facepunches
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2014, 04:34:57 AM »
I think you're doing a GREAT JOB already.

What kind of school are you attending?  (t1, t2, etc.)  If you can find a way to maximize your income after you graduate, whether by living in a different area or getting a job at a larger firm or both, I would do that.  It will help you knock out your loans FAST after school ends.

Also, don't worry about coffee or clothes (particularly since you are so tall).  Those will help you (1) study harder and (2) present yourself better while hanging out/networking with your classmates.

Thegoblinchief

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Re: Hello, and ready for the facepunches
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2014, 06:21:41 AM »
Sounds like a lot of gear you schlep around, but how far are you from the train station? If it's within 10 miles, you could bike it with a sturdy rack or trailer. That would also be a way of getting exercise on non tae kwon do days.

Compared to past law student case studies, you'll emerge pretty well on the debt front, honestly. It's not ideal, but it's far from the worst I've seen. Pay them off as quickly as you can, or work in a position that offers forgiveness (lot of DA/public sector type positions).

How much do you pay for the taekwondo? Consider dropping the number of classes and running forms on your own time. I personally never got a lot out of my formal classes except for sparring time, which was pretty limited.

chesebert

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Re: Hello, and ready for the facepunches
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2014, 07:03:08 AM »
Looks like you have worked incredibly hard and you get a 9.5 for effort. However, your situation is no ideal (to put it mildly). Given that you do want to make money and are working toward that goal, I assume ideally you would want biglaw right out of school.

Breakdown of your situation:

1. Your law school tuition is probably 50k/yr; you will have borrowed approx. 70k at graduation; and I suspect the personal loan is probably for 50k. Therefore, your total LS-related debt will be 120k upon graduation.

2. You do not have a "summer associate" position lined up (summer associate position means a summer intern job at a biglaw that pays approx 3k/week).

3. Without a summer associate position, you will not have a biglaw job upon graduation (and probably will never work in biglaw)

4. Instead of spending time improving your grades so you have a shot at 3L OCI, you are wasting very limited time you have on commuting and side jobs

5. You are investing an incredible amount of money and time obtaining the law degree; but instead of maximizing your investment, you are wasting time clerking at close to minimum wage (in terms of law-related jobs)

So, what do you really want to do:

If  you still want to reach for the biglaw/midlaw job:

1. You will buckle down, spend every minute of your waking our studying
2. Instead of clerking for minimum wage at a small firm, you will try to clerk/extern for a federal judge during your 2L summer.
3. You will need to dazzle the recruiters at 3L OCI and it would be great if the judge you extern/clerked for can recommend you to the hiring partners
4. If you fail to land biglaw/midlaw position in the 3L OCI, you will want to hold on to your connection with the judge and try to clerk for him/her or another federal judge upon graduation
5. After 1-2yrs of clerking at a federal court, you will once again be in a position to interview for biglaw/midlaw associate job.

If you want to do small law making 30-40k a year, then you can continue your current path. However, that path is neither easier nor more fulfilling than the biglaw/fed court, and you will be making significantly less money.

So if I were you, I would stop working, move closer to school, get on a journal (if you are not already on one (too late?)) and apply everywhere for a real summer associate and/or clerking/externship position.

To be honest, saving few bucks here and there while you are still a law student is not that smart. Your goal is to maximize your grades/journal/experience so you can land the highest paying job as a 1L and 2L summer associate and as an associate at a biglaw after graduation.

Once you start making 3k-5k a WEEK at a biglaw, then you can really apply your Mustachian skills and save like crazy. But, now is not that time!

Good luck and have hope!

 

« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 07:06:55 AM by chesebert »

cjcal

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Re: Hello, and ready for the facepunches
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2014, 09:20:48 AM »
I really felt the need to jump in on this one.  Understanding your financial situation while IN law school is a huge advantage.  I attended a private law school and can tell you MANY of your classmates are living entirely off loans.  By living at home and working while in school, you are definitely ahead of the curve on this.  I regret not realizing or fully understanding the financial implications of my degree and career prospects earlier, but you have plenty of time to make this work for you. 

Just like everyone else on this forum, you will make this work by living well below your means, paying down your debt, and avoiding getting sucked into living a life you can't afford.  You do not need a big law job to make this work.  As a lawyer, you are in a great position to build a flexible career, take on side jobs and work in almost any field.  I started my law career at a low-paying government job that I loved where I gained tons of specialized experience that got me my next job at a mid-size firm where I am make plenty of money (but nothing near big firm dollars) to pay down my loans, save for retirement and live a pretty luxe life without insane work hours. 

You just need to go in to this with your eyes open.  It's not a magical degree that guarantees you a big salary, but it has great earning potential.  You can make it work.  It may be rough at first, but being aware of the challenges is half the battle.  The best things you can do for your career are get actual experience practicing law, make connections with people that will hire you or send you business down the road, and avoid getting sucked into living the life of a high paid lawyer (even if you get a big law job).  You don't need a fancy house and car the day you graduate from law school (or ever).  Even lawyers can bring their lunch to work, avoid unnecessary expenses, and do all of the things people on this forum do to improve their financial situation.  You just need a plan.  Good luck to you! 

TreeTired

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Re: Hello, and ready for the facepunches
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2014, 09:34:00 AM »
I would like to share my personal story with you, as I am sure you will find it inspirational (<= said with much sarcasm)

My last job was a night shift, but very well paying.  I would start my evening off by stopping at a chain coffee shop and ordering a very large latte with an extra shot of espresso to help keep me awake through the night!! (YUM!!)  and a pastry of some kind.

After several years of doing this I realized that I was spending a small fortune on these giant coffee drinks.  (I think they were around $4..  or more... times 5 ... times 4.... times 12... holy crap!)

We had a little kitchen in my office with a microwave, so I bought a little Melita plastic thing and some filters, and a pound of fine grind coffee, heated the water in the microwave and brewed my own.  It was freaking awesome!!    I did that for at least 5 years until my job ended.  I managed to save so much money on coffee I am now comfortably retired!!!!! 

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!