Is your Mustachianism a means to an end or an end in itself?

[Retired To Win]

Are you practicing frugality and Mustachianism as means to an end -- say, to reach FIRE -- or are you practicing them as
philosophical ends in themselves?

This may be a question that one cannot truly answer until AFTER one has achieved FIRE.  But, even if you are still on the journey, give the question a go.

I give my answer to that question from the perspective of having achieved FIRE years ago and of having a passive income far exceeding my $15,000 annual basic living expenses.  And I have found that, to me, frugality and Mustachianism (1) were financial tactics I used to get to FIRE and (2) are now games I play if and when they are challenging fun.

And DIY is one example of how I know that's really where my head is at.

Before I attained FIRE, I did every conceivable home repair or improvement project myself -- regardless of how grueling or obnoxious I personally found the task to be. (And some were, to me, unbelievably tedious and trying.)  If I could figure out how to do it, I did it -- in order to save and invest the money I would otherwise have spent.  But that's not me anymore.

Now that I have comfortably and sustainably achieved FIRE, I routinely outsource that type of work.  I could do the work and, as before, save the money.  But I don't do the work because I don't need to save the money.  Nowadays, what I choose to do is to pay the money and save the time so I can use it to do something I find fun or fulfilling.  And "fun or fulfilling" are not descriptions I give to most home repair and improvement tasks.

So I am not being Mustachian (any more) with regards to home improvement and repair.  Which, to me, means that my Mustachianism is not "fundamental".  It is pragmatic.  And I am OK with that.

What's your take on this?

[MOD NOTE: Duplicate Threads Merged.]

[bzzzt]

For me, it's a means to an end. I, too, do all the DIY projects on my own to save money. My reasons are a little different though. Seeing older tradesmen, our bodies give up before our minds do. I'm going to eventually HAVE to pay someone do to my projects, so I might as well do them while I can.

That is also my reason for FIRE. Most of the guys nearing retirement age are getting knee/hip replacements, shoulder surgeries, fused discs in their backs, joint arthritis so bad they can't move, etc. An early out would mean a much higher quality of life in retirement. So, that's my goal.

[deborah]

Mustachianism IS pragmatic. There is some work MMM outsources that I do - making my clothes and having a vegetable garden for a start. Conversely there is some work I outsource that MMM doesn't (I won't do work that involves high ladders). No-one can really have a hard and fast list because we are all different.

I came to MMM after retiring - and I am not alone. The attraction of MMM for me is changing my life to one of simplicity, and I have a long way to go. It is the philosophy behind MMM rather than the ER message. But post-FIRE mustachianism is even more important. It is so easy to add a bit, and gradually become a spendipants. It is also easy to get caught up in expensive experiences (Disneyworld anyone?) that fundamental enjoyment of non-paying activities can be forgotten.

[arebelspy]

It's one means to an end I seek based on my personal definition of meaning, purpose, and ethics.

A lot of the principles of Mustachianism fit, and some don't, and I disregard those.  There are other ways to get to my telos without Mustachianism, and that's perfectly acceptable, too.

Mustachianism itself isn't good or admirable by necessity, but it can lead one to doing things that are.

I don't expect any changes post-FIRE, because my personal life philosophy hasn't changed.  I live before and after keeping the tenents I hold, some Mustachian, some not. 

[Retired To Win]

It's one means to an end I seek based on my personal definition of meaning, purpose, and ethics.

A lot of the principles of Mustachianism fit, and some don't, and I disregard those.  There are other ways to get to my telos without Mustachianism, and that's perfectly acceptable, too.

Mustachianism itself isn't good or admirable by necessity, but it can lead one to doing things that are.

I don't expect any changes post-FIRE, because my personal life philosophy hasn't changed.  I live before and after keeping the tenents I hold, some Mustachian, some not.

I can see a lot of what you say in my own attitude towards Mustachian concepts.

Using the DIY example I presented in the original post, I know that I place a lot less value than MMM Pete does on pushing myself into and through uncomfortable and demanding learning curves if I have a reasonably priced outsource alternative.  Of course, I have to also keep in mind that, to MMM Pete, home repair and improvement constitute "playing with power tools."  It's fun to him in a way that it's not to me.

[arebelspy]

I agree.  On the other hand, putting oneself through "tough" experiences to grow as a person (build skills, muscles, tenacity, whatever) can be useful.  Often the not wanting to outsource isn't due to the money or time.  But it's up to you to decide when it's worth it or not.  I'd say that it's good to push yourself outside your comfort zone a bit though.

[Exhale]

I was always frugal and built a great life for myself including my utter commitment to being debt free and "living simply so that others may simply live." However, I thought I'd have to work forever (I found my calling later in life and chose a meaningful but lower-paid profession). YMOYL and MMM showed me that FIRE is possible on (almost) any salary. This is especially powerful for those of us who come from economically-disadvantaged backgrounds where we didn't see how we could make (even small amounts of) money work for us, much less see anyone who had made it happen.

In other words, I was already enjoying living frugally, but didn't know how to leverage that to reach FIRE. That said, once I'm in FIRE I won't pinch as many pennies as much I do now (the extra penny pinching is a means to an end), but the bottom line is that I don't enjoy a high-cost lifestyle. Therefore, I'd say that voluntary simplicity is my philosophical orientation and the lifestyle that I prefer.

[mtnrider]

For me, it is a means to an end.

I do enjoy the creative aspects and DIY challenges of saving money, and I don't enjoy fancypants things like high end cars and expensive vacations.  That's in my blood. 

But I'm not driven by saving that n+1th dollar.  I just want to put away enough to maintain my lifestyle when I take much needed downtime, or start working for myself.

[wordnerd]

I haven't been actively engaged in Mustachianism for too long (I was converted by my husband), but the process of learning to appreciate life lived simply, recognizing the rampant consumerism in our culture, and taking control of my own future (and deciding what I want that future to look like) have been immensely gratifying. I'm reasonably young so it might've been less life-altering had I discovered it later in life.

[Retired To Win]

When I put up the original post, I did not intend the thread to be strictly about DIY.  My observation that, now that I am already FIRE'd, frugality is more of a game than a philosophical imperative applies to all other aspects of my spending.  Like, for instance, how much I'm comfortable spending on home entertainment.

Where back when I was still moving towards FIRE I would not pay more than $2 for a movie DVD, I just spent -- in fairly quick succession -- $21 for a first-season set of Vikings and $75 for 4 seasons of Game of Thrones.  Without batting an eyelash.

I'm telling you, for me it is different after one has reached FIRE.

[arebelspy]

I'm telling you, for me it is different after one has reached FIRE.

If you saw your life as deprivation, I can understand why it might change.

We have everything we want now, and we'll have everything after FIRE. I don't anticipate a big change in philosophy around spending or suddenly rushing out to buy stuff that we wouldn't have pre-FIRE, like your DVD example.

[Zikoris]

I think that as a general rule, it's the correct and ideal way for people to live. We (society as a whole), just can't keep consuming at our current rates, destroying the environment with plastic and garbage and air and water pollution. There is no way we can continue to live on our planet indefinitely at the rate we're destroying it. We have to move towards something lower impact if we're going to survive as a species.

My lifestyle choices, including Mustachianism, are based on what I feel is the sensible, healthy and environmentally sustainable way to live. That doesn't change whether I go to work or not.

[GetItRight]

I'm frugal because I value security and want to reach FI ASAP. After that I may keep going in the daily grind and expand my lifestyle a bit or acquire a few more things I enjoy before RE, or maybe quit the daily grind and expand the side hustle or pursue a more enjoyable (but lower pay) type of work. But mostly I want to not worry about having enough money for the basics, so frugality is primarily a means to an end.

To a lesser extend with DIY type stuff as OP mentioned I DIY home and auto repairs/projects/etc. mostly because it's nearly impossible to hire out such jobs and have the same level of quality and attention to detail. People either won't take the jobs or will charge an arm and a leg for mediocre quality. High prices and low quality seem to be what most expect, so most don't complain and are happy to pay through the nose. There are some jobs I am not well equipped to do or hate doing but I have to do them anyway, usually at lower cost that outsourcing even after buying tools, because every time I try to outsource I get burned with either crap quality, never actually doing the work, doing totally different (and inadequate) work than was agreed upon, etc.

[Retired To Win]

... with DIY type stuff as OP mentioned I DIY home and auto repairs/projects/etc. mostly because it's nearly impossible to hire out such jobs and have the same level of quality and attention to detail. People either won't take the jobs or will charge an arm and a leg for mediocre quality...

That's how I end up being the one that shovels the snow off our 300-foot-plus driveway... does the minimal amount of housecleaning needed to keep the place from becoming a pig sty... and performs other absolutely unskilled tasks for which the outsourcing alternative is way overpriced and arrogantly inconvenient to schedule.