heat pump performance with this recent cold

[uniwelder]

I'm curious how everyone's heat pumps worked for them during this recent cold.  This past weekend was the coldest I have experienced with a heat pump and inspired by another thread here about the storms and power outages, and @chemistk 's response, I thought it was better to start a new topic.

As with everyone who was impacted by the storm, the cold was probably the worst part. Our heat pump (non-inverter) struggles once temps drop below ~20F for an extended period of time, so I'm sure our electric bill will be a bit painful. The worst part wasn't the first day of cold, it was the third - by that point the ground had good and truly frozen and all that thermal mass that normally keeps our unconditioned basement around 55F dropped the temps to about 48F down there. When the house loses thermal mass like that, it's hard to not feel cold constantly. It's definitely given me some things to think about this coming spring WRT insulation, chimney repair, and air sealing.

In my case, the house has 2 mini-split units with no backup electric resistance heat.  Power was out for 8 hours during 5-10F temperatures, and when it came back on, the house was at about 40F.  Overnight and by the next morning, the house got up to about 60F, while it was 0F outside.  99% design temp for heating systems is 12F for my area, and this is the lowest I have known in the last 20 years, so it piqued my interest for worst case heat pump performance as my system maxed out. 

I logged in to my electric utility account where I can see power usage in 15 minute increments.  The 2 heat pumps were using 2,670 watts, which is equivalent to 2 hair dryers.  I can't remember exactly what the COP (coefficient of peformance) is supposed to be at 0F, but its probably around 2.  Rated output for the system is 36,000 Btu, but based on my electric usage, actual output at this cold temp might have been about half that.  I might investigate a little more to the specs of both units and update this thread with exact numbers.

There have been numerous topics regarding heat pumps and mini-splits, with arguments for and against them.  This has been my experience and thought it was worthwhile to share.  We're happy with them, but the power outage was a reminder that I should finally get the wood stove (for emergency heat and occasional use) hooked up sooner rather than later.  We have a brick fireplace that we closed off, and a wood stove we bought last year for an insert, but just need to run an insulated flue through to connect.

How has everyone else's heat pumps or mini-splits performed?  Please include the outside temperature and type of unit (mini-split, single stage or dual or inverter heat pump, resistance heat or not, etc) you are using.

[Sibley]

Following, especially for anyone reporting back with below 0 temps.

[skp]

Our temps were around zero and our heat pump worked just fine.  Not sure how our electric bill will be though :).   The only problem we had was that we were without power for around 6 hours.  When you live in an all electric house, that can be an issue.  No electric= no heat.

[chemistk]

Heat Pump. Brochure annual COP 2.4 (no idea what it is at 0F). Single stage pump, variable speed air handler. 7.5kW heat strips.

I finally did what I was terrified to do, and logged into my electric account to see what our usage was during that window.

Nothing. Or at least, that's what the system logged. It shows zero usage 12/22-12/25. So something must be broken on their end.

In any case, ours is an entry level unit. In my anecdotal observations, 20F seems to be the threshold where it will be able to maintain the house at ~63F and only turn on the heat strips to defrost the coils. The air it produces is solidly warm but not piping hot at those temperatures.

Below 20F, and especially when the windchills are so low, most of the time the system was running in Aux heat mode. It solidly met my expectations, although (and I chalk this up to the thermostat and where it's located) there were times when it cycles every 15-30 minutes.

We don't have any burnable hat sources in our house. It's 100% electric save for a fireplace that needs to have the top two clay tiles and the entire cap re-done. The fireplace was almost never used by the previous owners, some of the grout is still the original color! To supplement our heat pump, we have in-ceiling resistive heat* and baseboard heaters in a couple rooms. We try to rely on the heat pump as much as possible, but it's also a retrofit system and so the duct trunks run through the attic, with the vents and returns all right near the ceiling. The unit is also installed over the garage which is insulated but unconditioned. We do keep a oil radiator space heater in the living room to keep DW&kids comfortable at closer to 68F.

In other words, there's room for improvement.

When we were shopping for a new system earlier this year, it was hit or miss whether we would be able to get our hands on anything other than an entry level unit. We may not have been able to get anything other than the system we have at all, at least in our area. If we did, we were going to pay a big premium too - all in ours was $9750, but something like a 16SEER/9HSPF was going to be $12k, and anything higher was creeping up into the $14k+ range. It's also important to remember that what's entry level today would have been a mid-tier or higher system just 5 or 6 years ago.

The pump it replaced definitely was not working. With the old system, when the average daily temp was ~32F, we were using ~120kWh a day. Yes. That's correct. With this system, it's about 65-70kWh a day. The utility notes that we used 2,216 kWh in the same period over Dec. 2021 vs. 1,284 kWh this year.

The best part is that it's enough of an incentive to look into getting more insulation blown into the attic. What we have is Circa 1982 when the HVAC was first put in and the addition to the house was built, but it's nowhere near enough compared to today's standards. I'm hoping that we'll see at least a 25% improvement on the energy efficiency, along with the air sealing that needs to happen with that. I've been following the DIY insulation thread and I'm torn on whether to DIY or to hire someone.

I, too, have plans to have backup wood heat. I'm hoping I'll be able to repoint and recap the chimney this year. My neighbor has all the tools, I just need to find the time. I also am strongly considering putting a pellet stove in the basement and having that tied into the other side of the chimney (we have two flues, one of which doesn't even connect to the fireplace). That's a longer term project but one which would produce some very potent radiant heat for the super cold days.

Regardless,

This (heat pumps) is the future for climates which don't get downright frigid. Governments at varying levels are slowly disallowing installation of fuel based heat/hot water in new residences. It takes some getting used to, having the air from the register at ~90F vs piping hot. Some people aren't going to enjoy it, but our family has gotten used to it. The technology is only going to get better, and higher performing units are going to continue to fall in price. I wouldn't be surprised if 10 years from now, the entry level models are ones which can operate at a COP of >2 below 0F.

*Yes that's a thing

[uniwelder]

Our temps were around zero and our heat pump worked just fine.  Not sure how our electric bill will be though :).   The only problem we had was that we were without power for around 6 hours.  When you live in an all electric house, that can be an issue.  No electric= no heat.

Could you elaborate on the heat pump specs?  Does it have backup heat strips?  Is the compressor single, dual, or variable speed?

[skp]

Our temps were around zero and our heat pump worked just fine.  Not sure how our electric bill will be though :).   The only problem we had was that we were without power for around 6 hours.  When you live in an all electric house, that can be an issue.  No electric= no heat.

Could you elaborate on the heat pump specs?  Does it have backup heat strips?  Is the compressor single, dual, or variable speed?

I don't know the specs.  I'll tell you what I know.  It's a Trane, it's dual speed, it has the second best efficiency we could get (highest heating and second highest cooling).  I thought they all had heat strips- under a certain temperature, it switches from from heat pump to all electric.  I honestly don't pay attention as to what point it switches over.   I'm comfortable, I don't have a choice (no gas available) and I feel my electric bill is reasonable (budget $155 month- no other utilitiy bills)

[bacchi]

COP 3.6
variable speed inverter compressor
Rated to 5F max with 9650 BTUs
Rated to 17F with 13000 BTUs (indoor 70F DB, 60F WB)
no resistive backup

When temps were in the mid-teens, 22 kwh was used total. Some of that was for a space heater running at 750w (with a thermostat set to 45) to keep some pipes in an unconditioned storage area from freezing though. I'd really like to get an efficient heat pump window unit for that space.

[uniwelder]

COP 3.6
variable speed inverter compressor
Rated to 5F max with 9650 BTUs
Rated to 17F with 13000 BTUs (indoor 70F DB, 60F WB)
no resistive backup

When temps were in the mid-teens, 22 kwh was used total. Some of that was for a space heater running at 750w (with a thermostat set to 45) to keep some pipes in an unconditioned storage area from freezing though. I'd really like to get an efficient heat pump window unit for that space.

Is this for your whole house?  I guess its very small or well insulated or in a mild climate?  Was the 22kwh for a 24 hour period?

[RainyDay]

Not sure how helpful this will be since I don't have the details some of you guys do. We're in northern Virginia, lows got down to 8 degrees at night for several nights.  Our heat pump struggled, to say the least.  The auxiliary heat kicked on almost constantly and the heat didn't stop running until about 2pm, when the house got to a max of 64 degrees.  I'm not convinced the "auxiliary heat" actually did anything useful.

But, it's a 22 yr old unit, and the house sits on a concrete slab. No carpeting and minimal sub-flooring. 

When looking at my electricity usage, it got to a maximum of 74 kWh on the coldest day.  I'm braced for a much-higher electric bill, but nothing I can do about it!

[bacchi]

COP 3.6
variable speed inverter compressor
Rated to 5F max with 9650 BTUs
Rated to 17F with 13000 BTUs (indoor 70F DB, 60F WB)
no resistive backup

When temps were in the mid-teens, 22 kwh was used total. Some of that was for a space heater running at 750w (with a thermostat set to 45) to keep some pipes in an unconditioned storage area from freezing though. I'd really like to get an efficient heat pump window unit for that space.

Is this for your whole house?  I guess its very small or well insulated or in a mild climate?  Was the 22kwh for a 24 hour period?

Yes, the 22 kwh was for 24 hours and for the whole ADU. It is small -- 600 ft2 -- and very well insulated.

I should've put a kill-a-watt on the space heater.

[seattlecyclone]

We had a heat pump installed for our house in Seattle earlier this month. We had the installation scheduled since the summer. Our old gas furnace failed the week before, so we were using a few borrowed space heaters to keep the house habitable in that interim week. We got a Daikin system with one compressor outside connected to four mini-split units that cover about half the house and a ducted unit that covers the other half.

The house is about 2,500 square feet (including 500 square foot unfinished basement). Electric usage pre-heat pump was about 30 kWh per day. The week we were using space heaters the usage was about 100 kWh higher each day (outside temps in the 30s, indoor temps fell to the 50s). The next week the weather was about the same, we kept the indoor temperature around 65 with the heat pump, and electric usage was more like 35 kWh above our prior baseline. The next week it went down to the 20s outside and the heat pump was more like 45-50 kWh. Pretty rare for temperatures to get any lower than that in Seattle.

[LD_TAndK]

We have a heat pump in central Maryland, on the worst day Dec 24th it was a low of 7 degrees. The heat pump ran for 20 hours based on my nest app. It looks like our auxiliary (electric) kicked on 11 times for about 2 hrs 45 min total. The next coldest day, Dec 25th, the heat pump ran for 12 hours. I could have it run for fewer hours if I allowed the system to use auxiliary heat more.

Average usage over the whole Christmas week was 32 kWh per day, minus our base load of usually about 8 kWh. So about 24 kWh per day for heating as an estimate. We have an 1800 sqft townhouse end unit

Our electricity is about .15 per kWh so $3.60 a day for that especially cold week. Not too bad for heating costs in my opinion, considering I've paid $600 for heating oil for a winter in the past. I would like to upgrade to ground source heat pump if our system ever craps out.

[Sibley]

We have a heat pump in central Maryland, on the worst day Dec 24th it was a low of 7 degrees. The heat pump ran for 20 hours based on my nest app. It looks like our auxiliary (electric) kicked on 11 times for about 2 hrs 45 min total. The next coldest day, Dec 25th, the heat pump ran for 12 hours. I could have it run for fewer hours if I allowed the system to use auxiliary heat more.

Average usage over the whole Christmas week was 32 kWh per day, minus our base load of usually about 8 kWh. So about 24 kWh per day for heating as an estimate. We have an 1800 sqft townhouse end unit

Our electricity is about .15 per kWh so $3.60 a day for that especially cold week. Not too bad for heating costs in my opinion, considering I've paid $600 for heating oil for a winter in the past. I would like to upgrade to ground source heat pump if our system ever craps out.

@LD_TAndK did it keep the house at your set temp?

[Rural]

Two old through-the-wall heat pumps (look like big window AC units, and can actually go in a window). Don't know about the compressors, both do have a backup heat strip that kicks on below 40F. We got down to 8 degrees, nearly unheard-of here, kept the house at our usual 64 without difficulty, but we're earth sheltered and insulated to R60 on top and R40 in the front (open to the air) wall.


During the day we also ran a propane space heater for comfort (and a little humidity).


Looks like there's some error on the co-ops website and I can't get any usage info at all, but it'll be very high with those heat strips. That's okay; we designed for our usual climate, which is pretty warm.


One of the units froze up the first night and had to be defrosted with a hair dryer up on a ladder in the cold at 3 am right as temps dropped, so that was fun. It wasn't draining properly, I guess. Did the same on one very cold night last year, too. No issues after that drained.


The real victory, though, was my parent's water exchange heat pump in the spring on their property in the next state over. My brother lives next door and his pump tank on his unit in the creek downstream froze and busted, but they are plumbed in together, so they flipped a single switch and my parents' unit heated two houses through the whole event with no strain at all, and the grandbabies were warm.

[bacchi]

Two old through-the-wall heat pumps (look like big window AC units, and can actually go in a window). Don't know about the compressors, both do have a backup heat strip that kicks on below 40F. We got down to 8 degrees, nearly unheard-of here, kept the house at our usual 64 without difficulty, but we're earth sheltered and insulated to R60 on top and R40 in the front (open to the air) wall.

Earthship?

[LD_TAndK]

@LD_TAndK did it keep the house at your set temp?

The heat pump wasn't enough by itself. This was this first time I'd seen the heat pump lose ground when working alone. I think the point where it can no longer keep up is somewhere around 12 degrees for my system

The auxiliary heat had no problem catching the house up quickly when needed. Aux heat is 18 kW electric.

[Rural]

Two old through-the-wall heat pumps (look like big window AC units, and can actually go in a window). Don't know about the compressors, both do have a backup heat strip that kicks on below 40F. We got down to 8 degrees, nearly unheard-of here, kept the house at our usual 64 without difficulty, but we're earth sheltered and insulated to R60 on top and R40 in the front (open to the air) wall.

Earthship?

No, we're primarily passive solar heated, but (local) poured concrete walls rather than rammed earth/tires. And we're grid-connected.

[pressure9pa]

Hit about -4F here at the low point, and stayed at or under 0*F for about 48 hours.  Heat pump did not do well.  Normally set the thermostat for 68.  Woke up morning one to about 60 on the main floor, 58 in the basement, and comfortable upstairs.  HVAC is zoned three ways. Switched to aux heat, switched the dryer vent to exhaust to the inside, and fired up the wood burner in the basement on day two.  Also put a space heater in the master bedroom. 

By nighttime of day two, the temps were in the mid-sixties on the top two floors, and the basement maintained low-sixties with no help from the furnace.  My 8 year old crawled into bed with us, and I had two thermos bottles of boiling water under the covers for a cozy overnight with no complaining.  (We regularly sleep with two comforters.)  My teen was upstairs in her room, but she is impervious to the cold.  In fact, she wore shorts through the whole storm.

In retrospect, had I switched to Aux heat when the temp first dropped, I probably could have kept the house in the mid-sixties pretty inexpensively, then deployed all of the other hacks to keep it there. 

[Highbeam]

Installed a new minisplit heat pump this summer in my 1963 house. Super cheap, even cheaper after the 800$ rebate from the utility plus whatever the feds give.

When temperatures dropped we started up the woodstove and shut down the heat pump. The COP of the heat pump is over 2 at the coldest part of the cold snap but why not use a far more efficient heater. We were all warm and cozy by the fire.

To get an energy star rating the new heat pumps need to publish performance data at a bunch of temperatures so you can figure out the COP as well as the heat output at these temperatures. The available output from my minisplit falls off quickly below freezing but I sized the heat pump to be able to provide 100% of our heat at 5 degrees which never happens here near Seattle. So it can, but I would rather burn stuff.

[EchoStache]

Had a company come out to estimate heat pump installation.  3 ton/36,000 BTU inversion 18 SEER rated to -5 ballpark quote was $14-$16k installed.  Haven't gotten the written quote yet.  Need to figure out exactly how the IRA incentives come into play.  Not sure yet if it will be worth it.  Brand new gas furnace, the outside unit is 13 SEER.  18 SEER heat pump should save electricity in summer with AC.  Getting a solar quote so its a lot to juggle.

[dignam]

Had an 18 SEER heat pump/AC unit installed early in 2022 (along with new two stage gas furnace).  When temps drop below 35ish F, heat pumps are not great at pulling much heat from ambient air.  Mine's set up to use the furnace when the outside temp is below 35.  Where I live, winters are frigid so it's using the furnace for the majority of late November-March.  Although in the last week or so, the heat pump has kicked on a couple times as it's been unseasonably warm outside. 

There was a $1000 focus on energy rebate involved with this install, fwiw.

[EchoStache]

Had an 18 SEER heat pump/AC unit installed early in 2022 (along with new two stage gas furnace).  When temps drop below 35ish F, heat pumps are not great at pulling much heat from ambient air.  Mine's set up to use the furnace when the outside temp is below 35.  Where I live, winters are frigid so it's using the furnace for the majority of late November-March.  Although in the last week or so, the heat pump has kicked on a couple times as it's been unseasonably warm outside. 

There was a $1000 focus on energy rebate involved with this install, fwiw.

Was this an inversion heat pump?  I'm still learning so I'm net well educated on heat pumps yet, but my limited understanding is that normal heat pumps as you have observed are only good down to 35 or so, but newer inversion style are capable to -5?  Do you have inversion style?  If indeed the best heat pumps don't perform adequately down to at least 10 or so, I probably wound't consider.

[dignam]

@UltraStache It is an inverter heat pump; it has three speeds for cooling, and two speeds for heating (I think that's what you're asking).  From what I understand, older heat pumps just have the one speed.  Apparently it has a self defrost mode as well.  I was fiddling with my thermostat settings and there is a way to adjust when it chooses between the gas furnace and the heat pump, but I'm afraid to mess with that.  The installer was telling me that technically speaking it can still heat when it gets colder out (under 20*F), but it's not ideal especially if one has a supplementing gas furnace.

[Arbitrage]

We had a heat pump installed for our house in Seattle earlier this month. We had the installation scheduled since the summer. Our old gas furnace failed the week before, so we were using a few borrowed space heaters to keep the house habitable in that interim week. We got a Daikin system with one compressor outside connected to four mini-split units that cover about half the house and a ducted unit that covers the other half.

The house is about 2,500 square feet (including 500 square foot unfinished basement). Electric usage pre-heat pump was about 30 kWh per day. The week we were using space heaters the usage was about 100 kWh higher each day (outside temps in the 30s, indoor temps fell to the 50s). The next week the weather was about the same, we kept the indoor temperature around 65 with the heat pump, and electric usage was more like 35 kWh above our prior baseline. The next week it went down to the 20s outside and the heat pump was more like 45-50 kWh. Pretty rare for temperatures to get any lower than that in Seattle.

Do you know what the HSPF is of your heat pump?  We live just north of you, with a similarly sized house, and are definitely going to consider moving to heat pump with the Inflation Reduction Act tax incentives now in place, once we can figure out what we are eligible for.

[bacchi]

Do you have inversion style?  If indeed the best heat pumps don't perform adequately down to at least 10 or so, I probably wound't consider.

Our inverter heat pump works fine to single digits (F).  It's not warm enough for the cat -- she has a heating pad anyway so what's she complaining about? -- but it's fine for those who wear clothes (~64F).

I did add a makeshift wind barrier around the external unit to reduce the defrost time.

[seattlecyclone]

We had a heat pump installed for our house in Seattle earlier this month. We had the installation scheduled since the summer. Our old gas furnace failed the week before, so we were using a few borrowed space heaters to keep the house habitable in that interim week. We got a Daikin system with one compressor outside connected to four mini-split units that cover about half the house and a ducted unit that covers the other half.

The house is about 2,500 square feet (including 500 square foot unfinished basement). Electric usage pre-heat pump was about 30 kWh per day. The week we were using space heaters the usage was about 100 kWh higher each day (outside temps in the 30s, indoor temps fell to the 50s). The next week the weather was about the same, we kept the indoor temperature around 65 with the heat pump, and electric usage was more like 35 kWh above our prior baseline. The next week it went down to the 20s outside and the heat pump was more like 45-50 kWh. Pretty rare for temperatures to get any lower than that in Seattle.

Do you know what the HSPF is of your heat pump?  We live just north of you, with a similarly sized house, and are definitely going to consider moving to heat pump with the Inflation Reduction Act tax incentives now in place, once we can figure out what we are eligible for.

We got one of these. Looks like it has a HSPF rating of 11.1 in a non-ducted installation, 8.6 in a ducted installation, and 9.85 in a mixed installation. We have a mixed installation: a ducted unit in our attic that heats/cools the four rooms that touch the attic, and four ductless units that heat/cool other rooms.

Those IRA incentives look pretty sweet for those with qualifying incomes! One nice thing for those of us in Washington is it's based on area median income so those in HCOL areas can qualify at higher income levels than those in LCOL areas. Too bad our furnace couldn't hold on another year, but we had already had the replacement contracted before the IRA was even passed.

[index]

The CEE released their specifications for the IRA tax credits (30% of equipment and installation) for those making 150%+ of their state median income.

https://cee1.force.com/s/resources?id=a0V2R00000sUQbyUAG

Ducted heat pump have to meet CEE Tier 1 requirements and mini splits have to meet CEE Tier 2.

These include the new SEER2 (~4.5% lower than SEER), EER2 (~4.1% lower than EER), and HSPF2 (~15% lower than HSPF) ratings. A lot of heat pumps haven't been tested yet so you are going to have to wait and see if you qualify.

I will say, most of the 3 ton plus universal split units posters have been eyeing on here from Mr. Cool do not qualify. That EER2 rating for cooling at 95F with 0.5 static resistance knocks out a lot of heat pumps for the Southern region.

For mini splits, most of the top end units from Midea, Gree, Mitsubishi etc. look like they will qualify for CEE tier 2.

[iris lily]

We just got our heat pump system for our sun room installed last week,, just a few days after the deep cold. So, I do not know how it performs in extreme weather. I am curious to see how it keeps up in Missouri’s hot and humid summers.

I’m not too worried about it because it’s an extra room we don’t need to hang out in during extreme weather. I don’t want to put up window coverings although I might change my mind later about that. The permanent residents of that room will be tropical plants and they can take any heat thrown at them.

[index]

Just as an example; that unit @seattlecyclone installed is a really nice system and will probably NOT qualify for the tax credit! A lot of multi split units are not going to qualify. I am interested to see what table low static ducted systems systems will need to meet because it could provide a loop hole allowing many of those installations to qualify.

The only DIY friendly central unit I can find that qualifies is a 2-ton CH unit. With today's tech, you are likely looking at multiple units if you want to satisfy the CEE requirements and get the tax credits. 

[index]

Had a company come out to estimate heat pump installation.  3 ton/36,000 BTU inversion 18 SEER rated to -5 ballpark quote was $14-$16k installed.  Haven't gotten the written quote yet.  Need to figure out exactly how the IRA incentives come into play.  Not sure yet if it will be worth it.  Brand new gas furnace, the outside unit is 13 SEER.  18 SEER heat pump should save electricity in summer with AC.  Getting a solar quote so its a lot to juggle.

The best deal I have found on a good 3 ton inverter heat pump is:

https://www.alpinehomeair.com/product/furnaces-heaters/ultra-efficient-ducted-heat-pump-air-handler-complete-systems/blueridge/bmah3618

It won't qualify for the tax credit though because of the EER2 rating. You should be able to find someone to install it for $1500 or so.

[bacchi]

Just as an example; that unit @seattlecyclone installed is a really nice system and will probably NOT qualify for the tax credit!

Am I reading it wrong? The non-ducted unit(s) look like they qualify. As a mixed install, it also meets the numbers. The ducted units, separately, don't qualify.

The 4 non-ducts can likely get the max $2000.

[Just Joe]

We came through the cold just fine. Was worried we might deal with frozen pipes or some unknown as this cold snap was the coldest we've experienced in this house. Discovered the front door leaks cold air like a sieve so that is on my list to replace this year sometime. Temporarily insulated it with rags and towels. The door sags in its frame and we want a different style. It's 30 years old so we'll replace it.

~3500 sq ft house with basement. Two days of sub-5F weather. Overnight temps of -2F or so.

Top floor: American Standard heat pump. New last spring. SEER of 16. COP=?. Electric resistance heat backup. This switched on automatically during the worst of it after several hours of sub-25F temps. We set the thermostat back to 60F for the day we were there, and 50F for the 24th/25th when we went out of town.

Main floor: gas heat. Thermostat at 65F when we were home, 60F when we went out of town.

Basement has an air return, no thermostat. It's temp is whatever it is. We have a TV room down there and just bundle up or occasionally use a 220V space heater that uses 25 cents per hour to heat. Same heater as my garage heater. No idea how cold it got down there but it wasn't bad.

Normally use ~25 KWH a day, less if the weather is mild. On the 23rd we used 89 KWH (1F-2F all day, baking, laundry and TV/computer)! And 46KWH the next day. Might normally see 30-35 KWH on ~32F day. We opened the house up two days in a row this past weekend with ~60F weather. Was very nice.

Just bought a heat pump water heater to replace our propane instant hot water heater as we move away from propane (insane prices) to mostly electric. Was $1799 discounted to $1599, vet discount of ~$160 and a $300 tax credit. Manufacturer says we should see a $300 per year savings on hot water as compared to a purely electric water heater. We'll see...

Check your store's app - it showed the discount, the store price did not reflect this until we showed them.

Moving forward we need better windows upstairs, better front door, more attic insulation, and the main floor will get an inverter heat pump/gas hybrid system someday when it wears out.

[EchoStache]

Had a company come out to estimate heat pump installation.  3 ton/36,000 BTU inversion 18 SEER rated to -5 ballpark quote was $14-$16k installed.  Haven't gotten the written quote yet.  Need to figure out exactly how the IRA incentives come into play.  Not sure yet if it will be worth it.  Brand new gas furnace, the outside unit is 13 SEER.  18 SEER heat pump should save electricity in summer with AC.  Getting a solar quote so its a lot to juggle.

The best deal I have found on a good 3 ton inverter heat pump is:

https://www.alpinehomeair.com/product/furnaces-heaters/ultra-efficient-ducted-heat-pump-air-handler-complete-systems/blueridge/bmah3618

It won't qualify for the tax credit though because of the EER2 rating. You should be able to find someone to install it for $1500 or so.

Wow so all in, installed, around $5k.  That's pretty reasonable. Wonder how the quality is compared to say, Mitsubishi or GE which is what I was being quoted.

Edit:
I think I have a better understanding of the IRA incentives.  Assuming < 150% of AMI, it's an upfront POS discount of 50% of the cost of the project, up to $8,000 off(so 50% off up to $16k).  PLUS, a $2,000 tax rebate.  So in my case, a $15,000 install would be reduced to $5500.  I don't know how much better, if any, that would be for the GE/Mistubishi vs the Blueridge brand as total cost looks to be similar after incentives.

I think I need to shop around more for pricing as I'm seeing a 20 SEER Goodman 3 ton system for $7880.  $2k for install would be ~$10k.  50% rebate down to $5k, $2k tax rebate down to $3k.  It seems that solar would justify that cost pretty quickly, especially since I'd be going from 13 SEER to 20 SEER for A/C.  Ideally, net metering could result in a net energy cost of zero if I produce enough excess in sunny weather.

[index]

Just as an example; that unit @seattlecyclone installed is a really nice system and will probably NOT qualify for the tax credit!

Am I reading it wrong? The non-ducted unit(s) look like they qualify. As a mixed install, it also meets the numbers. The ducted units, separately, don't qualify.

The 4 non-ducts can likely get the max $2000.

The HSPF2 has to come in above 9.0 in Washington for tier 2. The mixed install will be under that. The other issue is the COP at 5F. It's not published here but the unit has a 5F cut off. I'm not sure how low static concealed ducted units or mixed installs are classifies. I would imagine the concealed ducted units will be held to ductless standards. They certainly cannot pass the ducted requirements for static pressure necessary for efficiency testing as a ducted unit.

[index]

Had a company come out to estimate heat pump installation.  3 ton/36,000 BTU inversion 18 SEER rated to -5 ballpark quote was $14-$16k installed.  Haven't gotten the written quote yet.  Need to figure out exactly how the IRA incentives come into play.  Not sure yet if it will be worth it.  Brand new gas furnace, the outside unit is 13 SEER.  18 SEER heat pump should save electricity in summer with AC.  Getting a solar quote so its a lot to juggle.

The best deal I have found on a good 3 ton inverter heat pump is:

https://www.alpinehomeair.com/product/furnaces-heaters/ultra-efficient-ducted-heat-pump-air-handler-complete-systems/blueridge/bmah3618

It won't qualify for the tax credit though because of the EER2 rating. You should be able to find someone to install it for $1500 or so.

Wow so all in, installed, around $5k.  That's pretty reasonable. Wonder how the quality is compared to say, Mitsubishi or GE which is what I was being quoted.

Edit:
I think I have a better understanding of the IRA incentives.  Assuming < 150% of AMI, it's an upfront POS discount of 50% of the cost of the project, up to $8,000 off(so 50% off up to $16k).  PLUS, a $2,000 tax rebate.  So in my case, a $15,000 install would be reduced to $5500.  I don't know how much better, if any, that would be for the GE/Mistubishi vs the Blueridge brand as total cost looks to be similar after incentives.

I think I need to shop around more for pricing as I'm seeing a 20 SEER Goodman 3 ton system for $7880.  $2k for install would be ~$10k.  50% rebate down to $5k, $2k tax rebate down to $3k.  It seems that solar would justify that cost pretty quickly, especially since I'd be going from 13 SEER to 20 SEER for A/C.  Ideally, net metering could result in a net energy cost of zero if I produce enough excess in sunny weather.

Mitsubishi has the best reputation. Thr GE central ducted connect unit is a rebadged Gree Flex. It's the same unit as the Mr. Cool universal.

It would be great if you could add the rebate and credit.

[volleyballer]

Does anyone know, for a system purchased in 2023, if:
1) AMI calculation use 2022 income or expected 2023 income? (I would be close to 150% AMI if using 2022, but definitely exceed if 2023)
2) does AMI calculation look only at w2 income (in other words, after 401k is taken out)?

[Arbitrage]

Does anyone know, for a system purchased in 2023, if:
1) AMI calculation use 2022 income or expected 2023 income? (I would be close to 150% AMI if using 2022, but definitely exceed if 2023)
2) does AMI calculation look only at w2 income (in other words, after 401k is taken out)?

I don't *know*, but have been looking for the answers as well.

I think that AMI is supposed to look at gross income, which would put us over the 150% cap for 2022 for our area.  Our income may be lower in 2023. 

[index]

Does anyone know, for a system purchased in 2023, if:
1) AMI calculation use 2022 income or expected 2023 income? (I would be close to 150% AMI if using 2022, but definitely exceed if 2023)
2) does AMI calculation look only at w2 income (in other words, after 401k is taken out)?

I don't *know*, but have been looking for the answers as well.

I think that AMI is supposed to look at gross income, which would put us over the 150% cap for 2022 for our area.  Our income may be lower in 2023.

The reimbursement is supposed to be issued at point of sale and is administered by the state. I would imagine you would probably submit paystubs to the HVAC contractor. The funds come as a grant from the DOE to the state, so I wonder if there could be a line on your tax return asking if you claimed a reimbursement and a claw back if you exceed the income limits... I also wonder if smaller HVAC contractors will be able to be involved.

One interesting thing is I don't see any efficiency requirements for the heat pump necessary to get the reimbursement. My fear is a lot of people on the lower end of the income scale are going to get a "free" low end heat pump that costs them more than their existing heat source.

[Jon Bon]

Mine struggled, badly. I mean it was about -5, so that is expecting a lot of the machine.

It really did not work at all, the gas heat on the first floor carried essentially the entire house. I laid in bed and got to feel it dump 62.5 degree air (I measured with my temp gun) into the room for about 45 mins as it was trying to get the room up from 61 to 62. So yeah I guess technically it worked?!

If we did not have gas heat on the first floor it would have been a disaster.

[EchoStache]

Mine struggled, badly. I mean it was about -5, so that is expecting a lot of the machine.

It really did not work at all, the gas heat on the first floor carried essentially the entire house. I laid in bed and got to feel it dump 62.5 degree air (I measured with my temp gun) into the room for about 45 mins as it was trying to get the room up from 61 to 62. So yeah I guess technically it worked?!

If we did not have gas heat on the first floor it would have been a disaster.

Can you share what heat pump you have, and what temp it is rated to?  Thanks.

[lutorm]

So in northern Sweden it's super common these days to use ground-source heat pumps to heat water for hydronic floor heating. Since you use the entire area of the floor to provide heat, you don't need to heat the liquid to very high temperatures, which increases the heat pump COP. That, in combination with the ground water always staying at some point above freezing makes it an efficient solution. Of course, the cost for setting up the borehole is quite high, but when it's cold it pays off compared to using an air-source heat pump since they're not very efficient at all in these temperatures. I don't hear much about ground-source heat pumps in the Americas, I guess this is because natural gas is so cheap here (still) that these high-tech measures don't pay?

[grantmeaname]

I think what I have noticed is that people here tend to call a ground source heat pump a 'geothermal system' colloquially, and only call an air-source heat pump a 'heat pump'. Even my geothermal installer.

[uniwelder]

So in northern Sweden it's super common these days to use ground-source heat pumps to heat water for hydronic floor heating. Since you use the entire area of the floor to provide heat, you don't need to heat the liquid to very high temperatures, which increases the heat pump COP. That, in combination with the ground water always staying at some point above freezing makes it an efficient solution. Of course, the cost for setting up the borehole is quite high, but when it's cold it pays off compared to using an air-source heat pump since they're not very efficient at all in these temperatures. I don't hear much about ground-source heat pumps in the Americas, I guess this is because natural gas is so cheap here (still) that these high-tech measures don't pay?

What I've understood is that modern air source heat pumps are efficient enough for most areas of the US, that in places where they're too cold, you also need to dig really deep for geothermal to make sense, which means drilling vertical wells.  For example, in my area, air source works well and I think is more cost effective to ground source since it doesn't usually get below 10F and a horizontal geothermal ground loop needs to be about 6 feet deep, which causes safety complications for the excavators.  I think 4 feet is the greatest convenient depth for trenching from what I was told.  I know of someone in upstate New York that is still in the process (after a year of on/off excavation work) of having a ground source heat pump installed and I believe they dug down 8-9 feet.

So yes, I suppose energy has been much cheaper here in the US overall that ground source hasn't been as attractive as in Europe.

edited to add--- I just read that 20% of Swede's have a ground source heat pump.  I wonder if there is something about the particular geology that is friendlier to drilling vertical wells there, besides energy cost, such as active geothermal currents or easier or more conductive soil to bore into?  Kind of like how Iceland is situated.

[lutorm]

What I've understood is that modern air source heat pumps are efficient enough for most areas of the US, that in places where they're too cold, you also need to dig really deep for geothermal to make sense, which means drilling vertical wells.

Yes, this is how it's done in Sweden. You drill a hole that's typically 300-600ft deep, 5" diameter, install a tubing loop in the hole, and this is the source-side for the heat pump. The type where you only bury the loops horizontally a few feet isn't used much, since it requires a lot of area and also tends to make the ground freeze which causes freeze-thaw cycle problems in the yard.

The installation cost appears to be $10-15k, out of which $3-6k is the cost of drilling and the rest the heat pump and installation.

But yeah I agree it probably doesn't make sense over an air-source heat pump except maybe in the northern plains states or Canada.

I think what I have noticed is that people here tend to call a ground source heat pump a 'geothermal system' colloquially, and only call an air-source heat pump a 'heat pump'. Even my geothermal installer.

Yeah, I know, it's a misnomer. "Geothermal" is really only where you use the heat emanating from the interior of the Earth. These wells aren't nearly deep enough for that, it just uses the ground water at these depths as a heat reservoir during winter that's replenished during summer.

[Jon Bon]

Mine struggled, badly. I mean it was about -5, so that is expecting a lot of the machine.

It really did not work at all, the gas heat on the first floor carried essentially the entire house. I laid in bed and got to feel it dump 62.5 degree air (I measured with my temp gun) into the room for about 45 mins as it was trying to get the room up from 61 to 62. So yeah I guess technically it worked?!

If we did not have gas heat on the first floor it would have been a disaster.

Can you share what heat pump you have, and what temp it is rated to?  Thanks.

I am not sure how I would calculate that, but I dont think its a super efficient model, (seer 15). It is basically brand new, so I assume it would be working in pretty efficently compared to any 10 year old model.

I guess my thoughts heat pumps is there are different enough from a gas furnace that there is definitely a learning curve living with one. Basically we put ours on pretty dang low and let the gas furnace and thermo dynamics do its job. In the summer the upstairs heat pump probably ends up doing 75% of the work which is nice when your houses was built before AC was invented and the airflow in the summer is terrible!

[chemistk]

I think what I have noticed is that people here tend to call a ground source heat pump a 'geothermal system' colloquially, and only call an air-source heat pump a 'heat pump'. Even my geothermal installer.

Reading this comment made me realize that I have been discounting the performance of my in-laws' ground-source heat pump, almost entirely. They have 2 ~120-150ft wells, and head-scratchingly they only use the system for cooling the house. Their HVAC is set up so that natural gas is the sole heat source, and I don't think they'd even have any interest in changing it. Hm.

It doesn't matter, because their system has cost them at least $40k since installation. They paid somewhere around $20-$25k to have it installed back in 2010, the wells have leaked out 3 times on their own, and the biggest extra bill was a $5k repair on the well after an excavation company dug right through a well. 811 failed to flag the geothermal lines, and my in-laws couldn't remember exactly where they were and somehow ended up on the hook for the whole bill.

[index]

Most of the US doesn't have the contracting infrastructure for ground source/geothermal heat pumps to make sense. Drilling is relatively cheap in my area of the country at $35/ft. 300 feet would still cost over $10k. Also our HVAC companies are very expensive. Usually a 3-4x markup over wholesale on the equipment and installation. A great deal on HVAC is a 2x markup.   

[lutorm]

It doesn't matter, because their system has cost them at least $40k since installation. They paid somewhere around $20-$25k to have it installed back in 2010, the wells have leaked out 3 times on their own, and the biggest extra bill was a $5k repair on the well after an excavation company dug right through a well. 811 failed to flag the geothermal lines, and my in-laws couldn't remember exactly where they were and somehow ended up on the hook for the whole bill.

How do you "dig through" a well? Or was this the horizontal kind of installation?

[Arbitrage]

Mine struggled, badly. I mean it was about -5, so that is expecting a lot of the machine.

It really did not work at all, the gas heat on the first floor carried essentially the entire house. I laid in bed and got to feel it dump 62.5 degree air (I measured with my temp gun) into the room for about 45 mins as it was trying to get the room up from 61 to 62. So yeah I guess technically it worked?!

If we did not have gas heat on the first floor it would have been a disaster.

Can you share what heat pump you have, and what temp it is rated to?  Thanks.

I am not sure how I would calculate that, but I dont think its a super efficient model, (seer 15). It is basically brand new, so I assume it would be working in pretty efficently compared to any 10 year old model.

I guess my thoughts heat pumps is there are different enough from a gas furnace that there is definitely a learning curve living with one. Basically we put ours on pretty dang low and let the gas furnace and thermo dynamics do its job. In the summer the upstairs heat pump probably ends up doing 75% of the work which is nice when your houses was built before AC was invented and the airflow in the summer is terrible!

SEER is really a measure of the cooling efficiency.  For heating efficiency/ability you need the HSPF number.

[Rural]

So in northern Sweden it's super common these days to use ground-source heat pumps to heat water for hydronic floor heating. Since you use the entire area of the floor to provide heat, you don't need to heat the liquid to very high temperatures, which increases the heat pump COP. That, in combination with the ground water always staying at some point above freezing makes it an efficient solution. Of course, the cost for setting up the borehole is quite high, but when it's cold it pays off compared to using an air-source heat pump since they're not very efficient at all in these temperatures. I don't hear much about ground-source heat pumps in the Americas, I guess this is because natural gas is so cheap here (still) that these high-tech measures don't pay?

My parents have ground source in the southern US, but that's because they have a high-volume year round spring on their property that doesn't freeze. So they didn't need to do any drilling; they just pump from the creek below the spring and have insulated the pump house a bit to be sure the pump doesn't freeze on the worst nights. Since my dad did all the installation himself, it cost far less than any other system would have at the time, and has definitely paid off since.