Author Topic: Hearing  (Read 3046 times)

namasteyall

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 134
Hearing
« on: June 28, 2024, 05:10:27 AM »
Anyone know anything about hearing loss? Coping with loss? About hearing aids?

Just a casual question! Thank you.

namasteyall

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 134
Re: Hearing
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2024, 07:47:32 AM »
Was wondering about treatment and hearing aids, etc. A cheaper way of getting one.

Davnasty

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2812
Re: Hearing
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2024, 08:18:15 AM »
Huh?


ETA: Just PTF, I have a relative I want to encourage to get hearing aids. And I couldn't help myself.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2024, 08:29:19 AM by Davnasty »


spartana

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
  • FIREd at 36
Re: Hearing
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2024, 08:22:11 AM »
I lost most of my hearing in both ears when I was around 30 in an accident and have been wearing hearing aids ever since. I get mine free thru the VA because my injury occurred due to military service. I really need cochlear implants because I have "profound" hearing loss and HA don't work as well but have been resisting getting them for years.

There's a lot of new tech now that makes most things HA compatible so worth checking out. Because I'm a woman with small ears, a lot of the new technology that's available now I can only use in outside the ear hearing aids - which are more noticible then I'd like when my hair is pulled back. Even with the  new technology they are still an uncomfortable PITA and the sound isn't natural. I still have to use CC on. TV, and can't really listen to music or hear most people. But... They do open up a whole new world for me and I highly recommend people look into getting them if possible. I hear Costco has reasonably affordable ones.

NoVa

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 187
Re: Hearing
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2024, 10:13:26 AM »
I know several friends and relatives who have gotten hearing aids. After they did research all of them wound up at Costco. There must be something to it.

Loren Ver

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Handlebar Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 1310
  • Location: Midwest USA
  • I Retired. Yah!
Re: Hearing
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2024, 10:36:24 AM »
There has been (more?) research tied to hearing loss and mental decline, so if it is an issue get it checked out and dealt with.  Not being able to hear can cause other issues as one starts to withdrawal from friends and family because one can no longer interact, leading to swifter decline.  Not good, and preventable or at least push back-able.

Loren

edit to give some kind of a link https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/the-hidden-risks-of-hearing-loss
« Last Edit: June 28, 2024, 10:38:00 AM by Loren Ver »

Dee18

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2299
Re: Hearing
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2024, 10:38:54 AM »
I am dealing with substantial premature hearing loss.  I got my Phonak hearing aids through the audiologist at my ENT's office, but my mother and many others I know have gotten theirs at Costco.  The hearing aids are similar to mine (though slightly lower sound quality) at about half the cost.  The key difference seems to be that the individuals fitting hearing aids at Costco have varying degrees of knowledge and/or caring about what they are doing. My mother,who is elderly and somewhat reserved, had a terrible experience; her aids were so poorly adjusted they were basically worthless.  When I was in town I went with her and insisted they spend time and actually get her feedback instead of spending 5 minutes and saying, "are those okay?" and my mother nodding, unsure of what they should be like.  Whereas at the ENT my hearing aid options were explained and then carefully fitted and routinely adjusted as needed by an audiologist with 6 years of training.  Most hearing aids come with a 2 or 3 year warranty that includes replacement if lost and Costco did do that with no hassle when my mother lost one.

blueberrybushes

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Location: Oregon
  • Wish I knew then what I know now
Re: Hearing
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2024, 12:47:27 PM »
Namasteyall,

Have had hearing aids since 2017 - gradual hearing loss in both ears to the point where I could not hear people and they were frustrated. I can no long hear anything below 45-50 decibels.

After a recommendation from a college classmate, I went to Costco and have been very pleased.  The process involved getting a hearing test and set up with the appropriate hearing aids.  They cost $1700 in 2017.  I am getting a new pair next week and they will be $1600.  This will be my 3rd pair.  My second pair was by Phonak and this pair will be Jabra.

Costco carries 2-3 different brands and the brands change over time because they ask hearing aid companies to bid for the business.  In 2019, Phonak - the world's largest maker if hearing aids - got the bid.  Jabra has the business now (along with Phillips and Renton). 

Costco warranties are 2 yrs (loss and damage) and 3 yr (repair).  Youi also get 180 days to return them if you really don't like them.  I have had 2 repairs to mine without a charge. They typically last 4-5 years.  The industry is moving towards rechargeables - recharge every night instead of batteries which last 4-5 days.  The shell (which goes behind the ear) is smaller with rechargeables.  "In-the-ear" hearing aids are not as good for moderate to profound loss as "over the ear."  The new hearing aids have many features including bluetooth, directional sound management, etc..  None are perfect though and will not completely undo a hearing loss.

Still, I am really glad I got them and won't go back. And, my audiologist at Costco has been there 25 years.

Hope this helps.

Sibley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8023
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Hearing
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2024, 12:54:17 PM »
My dad has age-related hearing loss and got hearing aids last year. We did a lot of research, but for him going to the local brick and mortar audiologist office which is setup to hand-hold you through the process was important due to the comfort level it gave him. So while other avenues would have been cheaper, those were not options. (There's dementia at play, different rules apply sometimes). Insurance paid for a good portion of the hearing aids.

There's a huge variety of devices available, and figuring out what's going to work best for you can be tough. And getting it adjusted properly is very important, it can take it from terrible to great. There's also been more of a push for over-the-counter type hearing aids that cost less.

If you need hearing aids, get them. It's very much a quality of life issue. My dad had a noticeable improvement in his cognitive abilities after he got the hearing aids.

SYNACK

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: Hearing
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2024, 01:23:39 PM »
I'm totally deaf in both ears. Lost my hearing in my early 30s (no good explanation as to why) and got a Cochlear Implant (CI) around 2006. It took an effort to learn to hear with it. And the DSP/audio tech back then worked but needed lip reading and quiet environment to hear. My current CI processor is a way better, has bluetooth, and I can pretty much "hear". It also has focus mode which is helpful in noisy environments like a restaurant. Not great but useable. That and some lip reading skills go a long way. My phone is paired directly with my CI and I can make calls, although I don't enjoy talking on the phone. I do use closed captioning on the phone and I find it easier to follow then trying to hear. It's like hearing requires a lot of brain CPU power..

I call my deafness my superpower. With a flip of a switch I can completely turn off the world around me. Crying kids on flights? no problem. I was at a conference a while back and was surrounded by thousands of people. I was able to turn them off and listened to some relaxing music :-)

A friend of mine has hearing aids. He recently told me that he gets them from Costco and he definitely recommends them for anyone needing hearing aids. He said their service and warranty is pretty good. He also told me that the hearing aids is the only reason he keeps the Costco membership.

Shinplaster

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1646
  • Location: up in Canada complaining about the weather
Re: Hearing
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2024, 08:57:39 PM »
I lost 25% of my hearing after a massive sinus infection due to covid in early 2020.   I ended up as many others do, at Costco.  I live in Canada, so it may be a slightly different procedure here.   I was assessed by an audiologist, and all adjustments, etc. have also been done by an audiologist.  Every 2 years we can have the tests redone to check if there has been further loss.  Our provincial government also pays up to $1000 for a set of hearing aids every 2 years, so it is pretty affordable.    I'll second Sibley's comment about getting them adjusted properly - my first fitting was "OK", but after a few weeks I felt they weren't quite right, both in volume and comfort.   After a second appointment and adjustment the difference made wearing them much more comfortable and effective.

One negative of shopping for them at Costco might be that they limit what brands/types they offer, but if your loss happens to line up with the type they offer, it's a good option.

My Mom started going deaf in her 70s.   She's 94 now, and still refuses to get hearing aids.  It's a huge annoyance for everyone - we have to shout all the time, and she still doesn't hear half of what we say.    At this point hearing aids probably wouldn't be effective for her anyway, but we are all sad that she didn't do it earlier.   Her quality of life could have been so much better for the past 20 years.   And that is why I made sure to get them the moment I realized that I wasn't hearing correctly anymore either - I am not going to make all my friends and family be my hearing aids.

blueberrybushes

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Location: Oregon
  • Wish I knew then what I know now
Re: Hearing
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2024, 09:29:23 AM »
For those who don't want to shop Costco, new regulations in the USA allow companies to sell direct to consumers.

Since Jabra does this - especially for people who don't have Costco nearby (or other audiology options). I checked them out before returning to Costco.  They can do a hearing test over the internet - pretty cool actually and fairly accurate.  Their customer service is very good.  They cost a bit more ($1995 vs $1600) and have the same warranty except the trial period is 100 days vs 180.

My Dad and Grampa refused hearing aids.  In both cases, they just did not want to hear everything going on around them.  I get it because I hate hearing all the background noise that normal hearing people have to deal with.  At the same time, hearing a car approach while walking, a beeping sound that says I left the frig door open, and/or an oven timer are certainly safety things I am glad I can hear now.


Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23696
  • Age: 67
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Hearing
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2024, 09:33:27 AM »
Costco
Costco
Costco

Nords

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3460
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Oahu
    • Military Retirement & Financial Independence blog
Re: Hearing
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2024, 10:17:50 AM »
Anyone know anything about hearing loss? Coping with loss? About hearing aids?

Was wondering about treatment and hearing aids, etc. A cheaper way of getting one.
Here’s the thing, @namasteyall:  you might be the last person to realize you need hearing aids, and every day afterward you’re making it harder on yourself and those around you.

We don’t know how much hearing we've lost... until we get back some of it.

[Side note for U.S. military veterans:  even if you think your hearing is “not too bad”, and even if you don’t have a VA disability rating, your hearing aids are provided for you from the VA for free.  It’s assistive tech whether or not your hearing loss is service-related.  The VA wants you to be able to hear in order to avoid a bunch of other (more expensive cognition-threatening) problems.  Please keep reading.]

My first words to my audiologist were “I’m here at the request of my family.” 

Their response was “Yeah, we get that a lot.”

“Lost hearing” is a subtle point. Regaining mine helped me appreciate how much I’d degraded, despite decades of seeing the evidence on my audiograms. In retrospect, I wasted a couple years on whining & sniveling before getting fitted for the hardware.

When you lose more acuity in one ear than the other (at least 15 dB out of 30-40 dB overall) then you also start losing the ability to hear the bearing/elevation of a noise.  In my case it meant that people kept sneaking up on me.  If I was at the kitchen sink and I turned around to put away a dish, my spouse would be Right. There. Behind. Me, and I’d accidentally collide with her.  (All she wanted was a glass of water.)  I had to learn to turn my head, check my baffles, pivot in place, and then start moving once the vicinity was clear.
 
If I was sitting in the side of our familyroom (around the corner from the door) I wouldn’t hear people approaching the room.  My first clue would be a flash of motion in my peripheral vision as they came in the room, and it’d usually startle the heck out of me. 

We all apologized to each other-- several times a week-- yet I still felt simultaneously ambushed, antagonized, and chagrined. Nobody was happy.

The pandemic made it brutally clear that I was lip-reading the cashiers & clerks in stores with noisy backgrounds.  It kept getting worse every month, even as the plastic shields came down and the masks came off.

If your bilateral hearing loss is uneven (that “more than 15 dB difference” again), then doctors get concerned about polyps or even acoustic neuromas.  You might find yourself in a MRI getting your head examined while you contemplate your life choices about hearing protection.

I’m medically all right, but if I hadn’t dragged my feet for so long then an earlier MRI exam might have led to faster treatment of unrelated sinusitis scarring. That’s a story for a different post.

Today I’m sporting Phonak Audéo L90-RLs in a matching silver-beige color for my skin tone & hair.  They retail for about $3000/pair but the U.S. Veterans Administration buys them by the shipload and gives them away to military vets for free.

Getting the hearing aids still took a couple of appointments beyond the medical exams. The first appointment measured the size of my earlobes and external ear canals. This determines the size of the hearing aid’s shell and the length of the wiring to the speaker by your eardrum. We also consulted a color wheel to choose a shell tint that, um, nicely complements my skin color and my silver-fox hair.  Nobody notices the hardware unless the wire glints in the sunshine.

The second visit took about an hour of setup and a few minutes of managing expectations.

The audiologist spent about 15 minutes synching the hearing-aid electronics to my audiogram. Most of my amplification is from 4-8 Khz, and my left aid is working about 20 dB harder than my right aid. The audiologist tweaked those parameters on their diagnostic computer.

While she set up the electronics, I downloaded the Phonak app on my iPhone. (Of course there’s an app for that.) In addition to the “Automatic” default it offers settings for Restaurants, Music, TV, and Calm environments. I can also customize those or add my own.  Your chosen brand of hearing aids might even be MFI:  Made For iPhone, with even more convenient features.

The app uses three Bluetooth connections: one for controlling each aid and a third for connecting to other audio devices. It took me a long time to understand the third one’s potential.

That third Bluetooth connection offers both a virtual headset (including a mic) and stereo headphones. The headset’s technical term is “hands-free AG audio” with my PC acting as the audio gateway to handle Zoom calls. The "stereo headphone" mode is what you’d expect, without the bass driver. Now I can use my hearing aids as an expensive headset or earbuds-- and their Bluetooth works a lot better with a Windows PC than the version of Bluetooth on my high-end Jabra headphones.

The headset’s virtual mic handles my speech largely through bone conduction, and the quality is similar to a high-quality condenser mic on corded earphones. I’ll still use a podcast mic for better audio recordings but it’ll be nice to record audio (and video) without an entire headset strap sliding across the top of my skull.  The Bluetooth connection is very reliable and I don’t need backup gear.

Phonak’s app even includes a movement tracker: now I can count my steps with my hearing aids instead of carrying my phone. Phonak’s business partners also helpfully upsell their health tools of interesting cognition games, background sounds for better sleep or improved focus, and “More coming soon!!” Yay?

That cognition aspect is another important reason for hearing aids. Research shows a moderate correlation between hearing loss and declining cognition. The theory is that if we can’t hear (let alone parse) the activity around us, then we withdraw from society and eventually lose the ability to communicate. I’m still skeptical about the causation but I’m not willing to experiment with the risk. I’d rather wear hearing aids and withdraw from society on my own introvert terms.

After the audiologist walked me through the app, we spent another 20 minutes handling my hearing aids. Their Li-ion batteries last for about 20 hours (longer than I do), and they recharge just like a smartphone. The gear includes a wireless charger to hold them while I’m sleeping.

(Now when I go to bed at night I check that I’m charging my phone, my tablet, our electric vehicles, and my hearing aids.)

Hearing aids also have consumables to swap out every month or two. I learned how to replace the speaker’s tiny earwax traps, the open dome over the speaker (for a better fit in your ear canal), and the plastic molded retention tail that stabilizes the aid in the ear.

Once the audiologist thought I had a handle on the gear, she handed over my goodie bag and I was released to enjoy my better life.  That was six weeks ago.

I spent the rest of the day being amazed by every sound. (And probably with a goofy smile on my face.) I can (re)hear rainfall on leaves & grass (not just on gutters & sidewalks). I can hear our neighbor spraying water from a garden hose, and their laundry dryer’s buzzer when it finishes. (“They have a buzzer?!?”) I can hear my spouse’s approaching footsteps before she enters the room. Once again, I can tell when people are walking behind me.

I can even hear my spouse moving around the other end of the house or opening the garage door. She’s not sure how she feels about me regaining my submariner’s enhanced counterdetection ranges.

In other news, as I walk I can hear my heels hitting the ground (or scuffing it). Chewing food (let alone ice cubes) is a completely new experience coming through both the hearing aids and bone conduction. Birds and geckos are noisier than I ever remember. I can hear my keyboard keys clicking on their backplane.

Ironically I’m still hyperaware of transients: dripping faucets, flow noises, motor bearings, and slamming doors. I’ve continued to hear these noises every step of the way through the decades of hearing loss, even as I was losing other acuity like picking out conversations in a crowded room. However now I hear transients much more clearly, and I can pick out a conversation from the crowd again.  If someone turns on a faucet two rooms away, I can hear that too.

My tinnitus is still with me, and probably will be for life, but it's much fainter.  I rarely notice it now.

Next week I’ll check in with the audiologist for minor tweaks on my hardware.  When the room is very quiet I’ll occasionally hear a slight electronic echo in my ears from the hardware trying too hard to amplify the background. In quiet areas my left hearing aid reverbs once in a while, which gets annoying. I can use the app’s Calm setting to back off the amplification a bit, but the audiologist can make the change across all settings.

When I’m listening to my desktop PC’s audio and the soundtrack ends, I can hear the carrier frequency. I don’t know whether that’s always been with the PC or if it’s the hearing aids.

Hearing aids are great for clarifying audio, yet they still have their limits. When I want to feel the vibrations of classic-rock bass and percussion in my skull, I still need a set of car speakers or a subwoofer.

I regret that hearing aids are not yet ocean-friendly. Their “water resistant” rating (and their warranty fine print) is more about heavy rain (and heavy sweat) than the action at my favorite surf break. In a couple years, when these hearing aids are obsolete and ready for replacement, maybe I’ll experiment with them in 2-4 foot waves. However if I wiped out on a wave then I’d probably lose them on my first faceplant.

My “waited too long” revelations are all too common with aging. I’ve heard elders (older than me!) say they should have downsized into age-in-place housing years ago. Friends have shared that they waited too long for hip or knee replacements. I know lots of people who wish they’d quit tobacco or alcohol much earlier in life.

There’s a lot of parallels between pursuing better health and pursuing financial independence, like “start as soon as you can.” 

And yet I made the same mistake with resisting hearing aids. My hearing is certainly better today, but my listening seems unimproved.

Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23696
  • Age: 67
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Hearing
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2024, 12:24:12 PM »
Lol, my baby sister just called to tell me she just got hearing aids.

stclurker

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 28
Re: Hearing
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2024, 05:45:14 PM »
Another vote for Costco, I have the Kirkland (Starky at the time I believe) and they have been great, a couple minor issues over the last couple years, but always fixed quickly and with a smile. I would get a new pair there in a second

oldtoyota

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3327
Re: Hearing
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2024, 09:49:43 PM »
How fast did it happen? If hearing loss happened in a short time period, it could be a medical emergency. Sadly, many do not know this and don’t get the proper treatment or anti-inflammatory medicines like prednisone or dexamethasone shots from an otologist. Sometimes, those steroids can improve your hearing after sudden loss, but it is necessary to have the treatment very soon after the issue begins.

I use Phonak. I suggest working with an audiologist and trying different brands.

I tried Oticon and didn’t love it.

ETA: Left out a word. I added in the word "it."
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 08:34:59 PM by oldtoyota »

LaineyAZ

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1357
Re: Hearing
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2024, 07:30:47 AM »
Nords,
I'm watching an older sibling go through this now so I appreciate your detailed response.  Very useful for the family and friends of anyone experiencing this.

Nords

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3460
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Oahu
    • Military Retirement & Financial Independence blog
Re: Hearing
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2024, 08:35:26 AM »
Thank you, @LaineyAZ-- my family's having fun with these too!   

I had my six-week followup with the local VA's audiologists.  They use a questionnaire asking (among other things) how often/long I wear my hearing aids.  During our discussion they asked for more details of how many days, how long, when (and why) do I remove them.  I answered with the facts-- I'm wearing them all day unless I'm napping or surfing.

It turns out that my hearing aids also record that use data, and the audiologists have way too many veterans lying to them about how much they actually use their hearing aids. 

Phonak even used to have a setting on the app for "Find my hearing aids" which might have been dropped from the latest version.  When I'm wearing them, that feature could be used by family to keep track of an elder's location.  I think it's far better than putting Apple AirTags into footwear or wallets.

During the audiology followup, as we were tweaking settings they also used their workstation to occasionally shut off my hearing aids when they were in my ears.  That was a stark contrast between what I regained and what I've lost.

Dee18

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2299
Re: Hearing
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2024, 10:16:13 AM »
+1 to Oldtoyota's public service announcement about sudden hearing loss.  This happened to me upon getting a Covid vaccination.  I spoke to two doctors about it right away and both said, "it will probably be back in a few days."  It never came back.  Only later did an ENT tell me I should have had dexamethasone shots in my ear.  I now know that you should request that, not oral pills.  The shots are better treatment and have fewer side effects.  But it must happen within 5-7 days. Oh, and it's painless. Some special equipment is used so not every ENT will perform the procedure. Hearing loss can also happen for no apparent reason, or be caused by a virus.  A friend of mine who is an ER doctor said he would tell patients this in the ER and set up a referral to an ENT or otologist, and often that doctor still would not give the shots.  Be insistent!  You do have to remain at the doctor's office for several hours without moving too much, usually in a recliner. 

GilesMM

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2519
  • Location: PNW
Re: Hearing
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2024, 04:54:15 PM »
Costco is famous for high quality low cost hearing aids.

oldtoyota

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3327
Re: Hearing
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2024, 08:44:06 PM »
+1 to Oldtoyota's public service announcement about sudden hearing loss.  This happened to me upon getting a Covid vaccination.  I spoke to two doctors about it right away and both said, "it will probably be back in a few days."  It never came back.  Only later did an ENT tell me I should have had dexamethasone shots in my ear.  I now know that you should request that, not oral pills.  The shots are better treatment and have fewer side effects.  But it must happen within 5-7 days. Oh, and it's painless. Some special equipment is used so not every ENT will perform the procedure. Hearing loss can also happen for no apparent reason, or be caused by a virus.  A friend of mine who is an ER doctor said he would tell patients this in the ER and set up a referral to an ENT or otologist, and often that doctor still would not give the shots.  Be insistent!  You do have to remain at the doctor's office for several hours without moving too much, usually in a recliner.


Thank you for this additional information. I want to support what you say about being insistent. Don't let an ENT put you off or waste your time. That happened to me with the first ENT. He had to attend a funeral and had a bunch of stuff happening, and I did not get the shots fast enough the first time I had sudden hearing loss.

My otologist says the length of time can be longer than 5-7 days. In my experience speaking to three ENTs (two with the additional otology training), the answer on the timing varied. It does need to be soon, yet no one knows the exact number of days. I've also heard "within two weeks."

My first shot in the ear drum did hurt because the needle was making a hole. My next two shots in that series did not hurt. A year later, I had another round of three ear drum shots, and the first one did not hurt that time. I wanted to share in case someone finds this info useful.

My otologist says that either the pill or the shot can work well. For my second round, my hearing improved a tiny bit (not much, sadly). When I asked what he'd do, he said the pill is easier because I wouldn't have to keep driving back to the office to receive the shot. Since I had a trip coming up, I chose the pills and then followed up with the three shots once I returned from vacation.

Important: According to my otologist, if oral prednisone does not work, the shots usually don't work either.

In my case, the shots and pills didn't improve my hearing at all the first time and only improved it a little bit the second time. Others do have major improvement.


« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 08:46:46 PM by oldtoyota »

namasteyall

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 134
Re: Hearing
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2024, 07:20:34 AM »
Thank you so much everyone. I find this an amazing, helpful and wise community.