Has FIRE become “spendy”?

[SotI]

I am starting to think I am too poor for this forum ...

[deborah]

I am starting to think I am too poor for this forum ...

Nah, it takes all types. It’s really good that the poorer members are actually often seen as more mustashian than the richest ones. I  personally am astounded and awed most by the single mothers with chronic diseases and kids with autism who somehow manage to FIRE despite all the odds stacked against them.

[Chris Pascale]

I think FIRE had it's moment, and most people realized that FI is the best part, and RE is only really worth it for

• people who really, really hate their jobs, or
• people with really clear (and generally somewhat eccentric) visions for what they're going to fill all that time with

.

This has been me - looking to FIRE into my next career, and as that nears, I'm already thinking about the one after that.

[Chris Pascale]

I am starting to think I am too poor for this forum ...

Get outta here, ya bum!!!!! Unless you have a recipe for beans. then share before you go.

[SotI]

I am starting to think I am too poor for this forum ...

Get outta here, ya bum!!!!! Unless you have a recipe for beans ....

only non-vegan ones!

[uniwelder]

I'm not crazy about it. In addition to the environmental issues, the human rights abuses you participate in by buying most consumer goods are pretty horrific, especially for electronic things. I don't like the mindset that any spending is okay if you're mindful about it or whatever the latest crap getting peddled is, because all spending is not equal, and as a society we need to reduce our consumption.

Some interesting reading material if anyone's interested in learning more:

Dying for an iPhone by Jenny Chan
The Rare Metals War by Guillaume Pitron
Cobalt Red: How the Blood of the Congo Powers Our Lives by Siddharth Kara

I’m glad you pipe up when the topic of spending more comes around.

[Ron Scott]

I think FIRE had it's moment, and most people realized that FI is the best part, and RE is only really worth it for

• people who really, really hate their jobs, or
• people with really clear (and generally somewhat eccentric) visions for what they're going to fill all that time with

We are very fortunate to accumulate wealth at a rate of nearly 1M/year and we are squarely FI. When FIRE community gets notion of that, it immediately turns into a “run dont walk the hell outta there” thing. We see it a bit different.

Thanks for this post. You’ve already been treated to some sarcasm, par for the course, but you and redhotdog are hitting on issues that should be a much larger part of the conversation here.

The RE-ASAP approach is just that—an approach. There is nothing inherently valuable in that approach that that it should be considered ”the right way”. That single mindedness should be called out for what it is and everyone should recognize these people have not found some magic path to heaven.

Congrats on FI. Keep working so long as you believe it’s the right way for you!

[clarkfan1979]

When I first found MMM, I cut spending that didn't add value to my life. After a few years of aggressive saving, I then started to ramp up my spending. However, the new spending is more conscious and intentional and meant to add value to my life.

Calculating my overall savings rate is a little tricky for me because I'm in the real estate game. However, let's just call it 30%. If I can maintain a 30% savings rate, I'm ok with increasing my spending into the future.

The typical attitude on MMM might be to increase savings from 30% to 50% to get to FIRE sooner. However, I'm looking to optimize my life, not quit my job.

[Dicey]

When I first found MMM, I cut spending that didn't add value to my life. After a few years of aggressive saving, I then started to ramp up my spending. However, the new spending is more conscious and intentional and meant to add value to my life.

Calculating my overall savings rate is a little tricky for me because I'm in the real estate game. However, let's just call it 30%. If I can maintain a 30% savings rate, I'm ok with increasing my spending into the future.

The typical attitude on MMM might be to increase savings from 30% to 50% to get to FIRE sooner. However, I'm looking to optimize my life, not quit my job.

I agree with this line of thinking. I discovered MMM when Jacob at ERE passed the torch. I found Pete's approach to be much more balanced and pragmatic. Anyone remember when Jacob bragged about how much money he saved by making his own rake? Yeah, no thanks, dude.

[ender]

When I first found MMM, I cut spending that didn't add value to my life. After a few years of aggressive saving, I then started to ramp up my spending. However, the new spending is more conscious and intentional and meant to add value to my life.

Calculating my overall savings rate is a little tricky for me because I'm in the real estate game. However, let's just call it 30%. If I can maintain a 30% savings rate, I'm ok with increasing my spending into the future.

The typical attitude on MMM might be to increase savings from 30% to 50% to get to FIRE sooner. However, I'm looking to optimize my life, not quit my job.

+1

Plus many of us joined ~10 years ago in the early stages of our careers, so life changes priorities somewhat.

Currently I actually enjoy my job quite a bit. Would I be happier at the same standard of living without it? Sure. But for me the balance is pretty great right now - that may change, eventually, but it's why we still save so much.

As they say in investing, job satisfaction is the same. "past results don't guarantee future performance." Things can change quickly. So I'm trying to be incredibly mindful of this with saving a ton but also realizing some of the things I want/enjoy in life do actually cost money.

[tygertygertyger]

Before joining MMM, I had gotten my first full time job with benefits. My expenses were low, even with student loans, so I went on an awesome vacation every year. I was NOT making much (40?), but $$ was slowly growing in my checking account. I was not putting anything in my 401k - my company had frozen the match so I figured why bother. Eventually I thought to calculate how much interest I would pay on my students loans over the rest of their return, and it was So Much. I started throwing everything I had at them, and paid them off in about 18 months. It was such an amazing feeling.

Sometime around then is when I found MMM. I had always cared about finances and being able to take care of myself, but I had never bothered to track spending or figured out that I might not have to work for 40 years before I could retire. Revolutionary.

Many others have commented that the forum has gotten soft, and sure, I can see that. But it's helped me frame the best choices and understand that spending on what I value should be the most important thing. We bought a house with a much lower payment than most people we know, because we want the extra flexibility that brings. I could potentially go PT or coast in a few years.

Our parents joke that we're frugal - and we are! But we also feel like we can basically go buy whatever we want. We just don't want that much.

[farmecologist]

Many FIRE devotees are too focused on escaping work, and don't have a clear plan of what they're going to do with all that time when they get there. Once you have the position of strength in negotiating your working conditions (FU money), you can work fewer hours, at better rates, with people you enjoy associating with. The most powerful bit of the FIRE strategy is "save most aggressively when you're young so that it has more time to compound." Get that step sorted out, and then you have the freedom to choose between RE, or working more and getting rich.

Retiring early makes sense if you have a vision that requires maximum flexibility and time off. If you want to backpack around the world or homeschool multiple children, that's a good reason to retire. If you want to reskill into an entirely different form of work (or take on work that isn't as lucrative), FI buys you that freedom, but you're still likely to be earning some money. If you just want to travel, hike, or hang out with friends more often... you can do all those things while you have a job. The problem preventing those things isn't work, it's internal.

As far as environmental costs are concerned, there are a lot of things you can spend more money on that aren't imposing any environmental costs. In fact, a lot of fancy expensive things can be better for the environment. Get richer and you can move to a more expensive walkable neighborhood. You can pay a premium for things that were produced in more sustainable ways, or were made locally and didn't need to be shipped across the ocean on a carbon-belching container ship.

I think FIRE had it's moment, and most people realized that FI is the best part, and RE is only really worth it for

• people who really, really hate their jobs, or
• people with really clear (and generally somewhat eccentric) visions for what they're going to fill all that time with

.
For most people who achieve FI and don't want to live in a van or run a weird Catholic/Mormon homeschool operation, the real path to living your best life is to use that leverage to

• downshift into some kind of related work role with fewer hours and greater flexibility, or
• take on some other kind of work that provides lower compensation, but is deeply meaningful/enjoyable.

Work gets a bad name around here, but the idea that work provides a sense of meaning and purpose is not something to be scoffed at. There are lots of great jobs in the world. Once money is no object, it becomes a lot easier to get one of those desirable and competitive jobs. Lots of people are attracted to FIRE because they were pushed by financial desperation into jobs they hate. Well once you're not financially desperate, you can get a job you don't hate. For the big FIRE content creators, they found flexibility, reduced hours, and sense of purpose in providing educational content on the internet about lifestyle and personal finance. Now they're trying to figure out what to do with that money.

I think FIRE is attractive to people who received lots of guilt/shame messages about money as children. If you were conditioned to believe frugality is a virtue and opulent spending is shameful and/or stupid, and then you grind your way through school to get a high-paying career... Well then the FIRE approach lets you exemplify those "virtues" you internalized as child without ever confronting the internal scripts around scarcity. Then someday you realize you're rich and you never exercised the muscle of spending money well to make your life more beautiful. Will second @BeanCounter that Ramit Sethi's stuff is a great counter-balance to the scarcity mindset.

Excellent post and actually puts into words how I lately struggle to align with the FIRE community. We are very fortunate to accumulate wealth at a rate of nearly 1M/year and we are squarely FI. When FIRE community gets notion of that, it immediately turns into a “run dont walk the hell outta there” thing. We see it a bit different. After FI we losened more up, putting in even more trips and experiences while working - in our case totally possible with plenty of holidays and flexibilty with wfh. We dont need RE to live incredibles lives! In fact, if that is the case you likely waste many or even most years! In our case, very soon, our wish to travel full time for 2-3 years will trigger RE. But man, even before that so many things to do and see even when working, family and friends to visit and fulfilling projects. If your job does not allow you to enjoy life, change that first! Imo, more important than to double down in jobs you hate and climb out of that mine at 45, 40, or even 35 years of age feeling those 10, 15, 20 years were not fulfilling your idea of a good life. You dont have to love your job, but ensure it leaves you space to do things you enjoy - a soul crushing job wont btw

One aspect I think is often overlooked is the quality of location while working (and living while working!). I have been offered bigger jobs with 2-3X more money but in crappy boring places with nothing to do but shooting golf balls and ducks, screw that! Likewise, been offered more money moving to congested, polluted and crime-ridden cities, screw that too! What good is a “good” job if you cant enjoy where you live? Our environment is so extremely important for our mental health and also the attainable life quality.
Happiness for us is somewhere inbetween FI, maximizing experiences, decent job that you at least dont hate or crushes your soul and creating an environment that brings you joy every day

This is what I was trying to quote. Accumulating $1 million per year? And could be accumulating 2-3x that but decided to stick with good work life balance? Ok good advice. Next time I have the choice, I'll be sure to pick the $1 million per year job that has more flexibility over the 3 million per year job I wouldn't enjoy as much.

Far to many "brag bros" on this forum lately....It is starting to remind me of Financial Samurai....which is NOT a good thing.

[brandon1827]

PTF

The mindset shift has been fun to watch as it has evolved over the years. It's very interesting to read how thought processes have changed and continue to change

[Dicey]

Far to many "brag bros" on this forum lately....It is starting to remind me of Financial Samurai....which is NOT a good thing.

I believe part of that is a result of facepunches becoming scarcer. In the early days, claims that seemed fantastical were challenged. Now they're accepted as fact. People who had enough and still worked in less than optimal circumstances were also called to task on the regular.

[getsorted]

single mothers with chronic diseases and kids with autism who somehow manage to FIRE despite all the odds stacked against them.

I haven't FIRED nor will I any time soon, but, if I ever manage it, I'll accept that awe! lol.

But I think you are illustrating a point-- Sometimes a face-punch just isn't the appropriate tool for the job at hand. Sometimes the situation is a poster whom life is punching in the face repeatedly. In the same way that you can't build a house with nothing but a wrecking ball, you need a variety of tools to encourage people toward financial success, and one of those tools is, in fact, spending.

Case in point, I've had people on this forum encourage me to out-source rather than in-source certain types of labor, and that advice has actually helped me improve my savings rate.

[curious_george]

Many FIRE devotees are too focused on escaping work, and don't have a clear plan of what they're going to do with all that time when they get there. Once you have the position of strength in negotiating your working conditions (FU money), you can work fewer hours, at better rates, with people you enjoy associating with. The most powerful bit of the FIRE strategy is "save most aggressively when you're young so that it has more time to compound." Get that step sorted out, and then you have the freedom to choose between RE, or working more and getting rich.

Retiring early makes sense if you have a vision that requires maximum flexibility and time off. If you want to backpack around the world or homeschool multiple children, that's a good reason to retire. If you want to reskill into an entirely different form of work (or take on work that isn't as lucrative), FI buys you that freedom, but you're still likely to be earning some money. If you just want to travel, hike, or hang out with friends more often... you can do all those things while you have a job. The problem preventing those things isn't work, it's internal.

As far as environmental costs are concerned, there are a lot of things you can spend more money on that aren't imposing any environmental costs. In fact, a lot of fancy expensive things can be better for the environment. Get richer and you can move to a more expensive walkable neighborhood. You can pay a premium for things that were produced in more sustainable ways, or were made locally and didn't need to be shipped across the ocean on a carbon-belching container ship.

I think FIRE had it's moment, and most people realized that FI is the best part, and RE is only really worth it for

• people who really, really hate their jobs, or
• people with really clear (and generally somewhat eccentric) visions for what they're going to fill all that time with

.
For most people who achieve FI and don't want to live in a van or run a weird Catholic/Mormon homeschool operation, the real path to living your best life is to use that leverage to

• downshift into some kind of related work role with fewer hours and greater flexibility, or
• take on some other kind of work that provides lower compensation, but is deeply meaningful/enjoyable.

Work gets a bad name around here, but the idea that work provides a sense of meaning and purpose is not something to be scoffed at. There are lots of great jobs in the world. Once money is no object, it becomes a lot easier to get one of those desirable and competitive jobs. Lots of people are attracted to FIRE because they were pushed by financial desperation into jobs they hate. Well once you're not financially desperate, you can get a job you don't hate. For the big FIRE content creators, they found flexibility, reduced hours, and sense of purpose in providing educational content on the internet about lifestyle and personal finance. Now they're trying to figure out what to do with that money.

I think FIRE is attractive to people who received lots of guilt/shame messages about money as children. If you were conditioned to believe frugality is a virtue and opulent spending is shameful and/or stupid, and then you grind your way through school to get a high-paying career... Well then the FIRE approach lets you exemplify those "virtues" you internalized as child without ever confronting the internal scripts around scarcity. Then someday you realize you're rich and you never exercised the muscle of spending money well to make your life more beautiful. Will second @BeanCounter that Ramit Sethi's stuff is a great counter-balance to the scarcity mindset.

Excellent post and actually puts into words how I lately struggle to align with the FIRE community. We are very fortunate to accumulate wealth at a rate of nearly 1M/year and we are squarely FI. When FIRE community gets notion of that, it immediately turns into a “run dont walk the hell outta there” thing. We see it a bit different. After FI we losened more up, putting in even more trips and experiences while working - in our case totally possible with plenty of holidays and flexibilty with wfh. We dont need RE to live incredibles lives! In fact, if that is the case you likely waste many or even most years! In our case, very soon, our wish to travel full time for 2-3 years will trigger RE. But man, even before that so many things to do and see even when working, family and friends to visit and fulfilling projects. If your job does not allow you to enjoy life, change that first! Imo, more important than to double down in jobs you hate and climb out of that mine at 45, 40, or even 35 years of age feeling those 10, 15, 20 years were not fulfilling your idea of a good life. You dont have to love your job, but ensure it leaves you space to do things you enjoy - a soul crushing job wont btw

One aspect I think is often overlooked is the quality of location while working (and living while working!). I have been offered bigger jobs with 2-3X more money but in crappy boring places with nothing to do but shooting golf balls and ducks, screw that! Likewise, been offered more money moving to congested, polluted and crime-ridden cities, screw that too! What good is a “good” job if you cant enjoy where you live? Our environment is so extremely important for our mental health and also the attainable life quality.
Happiness for us is somewhere inbetween FI, maximizing experiences, decent job that you at least dont hate or crushes your soul and creating an environment that brings you joy every day

This is what I was trying to quote. Accumulating $1 million per year? And could be accumulating 2-3x that but decided to stick with good work life balance? Ok good advice. Next time I have the choice, I'll be sure to pick the $1 million per year job that has more flexibility over the 3 million per year job I wouldn't enjoy as much.

Far to many "brag bros" on this forum lately....It is starting to remind me of Financial Samurai....which is NOT a good thing.

I don't mind if people brag but I just wished to God they would tell me where these 7 figure jobs are at so I could work one of those jobs for one year then retire.

Come on @Redhotdog spill the beans. Or the hot dogs rather.

[habanero]

Come on @Redhotdog spill the beans. Or the hot dogs rather.

Senior Tech Bro, lawyer or banking/trading should do the trick. The latter two tend to not have great hours, however.

[curious_george]

Come on @Redhotdog spill the beans. Or the hot dogs rather.

Senior Tech Bro, lawyer or banking/trading should do the trick. The latter two tend to not have great hours, however.

hmmm....I already work as a 'Senior Tech Bro'. I have not met any software engineer, cloud developer, architect, or whatever making seven figures....at least in the midwest. Tons of us are making six figures though.

Maybe it's time to move to California.

[ender]

Come on @Redhotdog spill the beans. Or the hot dogs rather.

Senior Tech Bro, lawyer or banking/trading should do the trick. The latter two tend to not have great hours, however.

hmmm....I already work as a 'Senior Tech Bro'. I have not met any software engineer, cloud developer, architect, or whatever making seven figures....at least in the midwest. Tons of us are making six figures though.

Maybe it's time to move to California.

I work remotely for a CA based company and while I don't make 7 figures, I make... far far more than midwest companies would ever pay.

Either way though, relatively few non-management engineer roles in any tech company makes 7 figures even in the bay area.

[curious_george]

Come on @Redhotdog spill the beans. Or the hot dogs rather.

Senior Tech Bro, lawyer or banking/trading should do the trick. The latter two tend to not have great hours, however.

hmmm....I already work as a 'Senior Tech Bro'. I have not met any software engineer, cloud developer, architect, or whatever making seven figures....at least in the midwest. Tons of us are making six figures though.

Maybe it's time to move to California.

I work remotely for a CA based company and while I don't make 7 figures, I make... far far more than midwest companies would ever pay.

Either way though, relatively few non-management engineer roles in any tech company makes 7 figures even in the bay area.

Oh - that sounds like a good idea.

I just need to find a remote job working for a California company.

[Laura33]

Come on @Redhotdog spill the beans. Or the hot dogs rather.

Senior Tech Bro, lawyer or banking/trading should do the trick. The latter two tend to not have great hours, however.

And lawyer at least also requires at least 10-15 years of those not-great hours before you get to 7 figures.  And that's assuming you're one of those maybe 5% who can make partner at a big name firm, or you land some massive personal injury/malpractice/class action cases. 

I'm 30+ years in practice, partner at a mid-sized law firm, making DC wages in a non-DC area, and wouldn't make close to $1M even if I were full-time.  In fact, we've only recently hit the $1M level for the big-earners -- and there are just a couple of them, and they've been growing their practices for as long as I have, if not longer. 

Tl;dr:  even in the potentially-highly-paid professions, 7-figure salaries are few and far between, and even then are often earned only after years of serious ass-busting.  It's not exactly an easy path to retiring in a couple of years. 

[habanero]

Tl;dr:  even in the potentially-highly-paid professions, 7-figure salaries are few and far between, and even then are often earned only after years of serious ass-busting.  It's not exactly an easy path to retiring in a couple of years.

Yeah - was kind of my point as well. Very high-paid gigs tend to not be very cushy and generally require serious dedication over years to get and most who try really hard to get there don't get there despite substantial effort. Places where that kind of money is avaiable are also likely to be fiercly competitive.

[Fomerly known as something]

Like Laura, I’ve been a fan of FIRE and MMM for a long time, but I was never really on board with the $24k.

Like Dicey, at one point I cut, cut, cut and now I’ve gone back and increased my spending in ways that are important to me (no more $2 chuck for me).

But what MMM did for me as a SCE federal employee (we can retire younger like those in the military), is allow me to realize I can flat out retire when I’m eligible, instead of getting that “retirement job” i believed I needed until 10 years ago.  It’s also given me the flexibility to live in a HCOL are that I’ve found I love instead of “having” to go to a LCOL area.  I’ve lived there it’s not my cup of tea.  (The SE is way too humid).

[curious_george]

Tl;dr:  even in the potentially-highly-paid professions, 7-figure salaries are few and far between, and even then are often earned only after years of serious ass-busting.  It's not exactly an easy path to retiring in a couple of years.

Yeah - was kind of my point as well. Very high-paid gigs tend to not be very cushy and generally require serious dedication over years to get and most who try really hard to get there don't get there despite substantial effort. Places where that kind of money is avaiable are also likely to be fiercly competitive.

Yes - this is why I was asking @Redhotdog what they do for a living to make that kind of income.

I once met the president of one of my previous companies, which is a multi-billion dollar international corporation, and even he was barely making seven figures, and most of that was all stock options.

That sort of compensation is pretty rare.

ETA: Never mind. I just went through their post history and see they are a C-suite executive. Makes sense.

@Redhotdog - Say, are you in need of an executive assistant, or a secretary, or something? I could clean your shoes pretty well. Take out the garbage. Mow your lawn, do your shopping for you. I could make your life *extremely* easy and enjoyable so you only have to focus on your work. :)

[jeroly]

To me, FIRE has always been about optimization, not spending. FIRE, or specifically financial independence, simply provides the means or pathway to optimize other areas of my life, such as health, relationships, etc., and not just finances.

In addition, FIRE provides a different mindset, a different way to make financial decisions.

We are one of those families looking for a million dollar house -- well, in Canadian dollars, so more like a $750K house. Not because we are trying to be more spendy, but because the $1M house allows us to be close to nature (which we value), be in a good public school district (which we value), be close to family so that we can help when needed (which we value).

At the same time, because of the FIRE mindset, we are also considering how to optimize the $1M house. Is there an ADU or a basement unit that can be rented out for additional income? Is it close to a university so that we can rent out rooms if necessary? Is the space flexible enough that we can section of part of it for a home business? Is there a back garden where we can grow some of our own food? Is there some way my $1M house can become an income generator and not just an expense?

Oh just find a job that pays 7 figures with a great work life balance in a location I enjoy?  Why didn't I think of that? Duh!

A house that’s worth $1M doesn’t necessarily require a 7-figure annual salary. All the other stuff - aim for work-life balance, try to be in a location you enjoy - well, yeah, that part I agree with. It’s about designing the life you want.

For us, it’s not about being spendy or not. It’s about figuring out what we want in life and how to go about achieving it in a fiscally responsible way.

A mortgage on a $1M house is around $6,200/month right now (PITI with 20% down). Would be affordable on anything over $300k income. Doable probably on $200k as long as a decent stash was already built up. Agreed that a 7-figure salary would be overkill.

Yeah, but who puts only 20% down?  We put 70% down, which significantly reduces the weekly payments.

Are Canadian mortgages payable weekly?
US mortgages are (almost exclusively) payable monthly.

[Freedomin5]

To me, FIRE has always been about optimization, not spending. FIRE, or specifically financial independence, simply provides the means or pathway to optimize other areas of my life, such as health, relationships, etc., and not just finances.

In addition, FIRE provides a different mindset, a different way to make financial decisions.

We are one of those families looking for a million dollar house -- well, in Canadian dollars, so more like a $750K house. Not because we are trying to be more spendy, but because the $1M house allows us to be close to nature (which we value), be in a good public school district (which we value), be close to family so that we can help when needed (which we value).

At the same time, because of the FIRE mindset, we are also considering how to optimize the $1M house. Is there an ADU or a basement unit that can be rented out for additional income? Is it close to a university so that we can rent out rooms if necessary? Is the space flexible enough that we can section of part of it for a home business? Is there a back garden where we can grow some of our own food? Is there some way my $1M house can become an income generator and not just an expense?

Oh just find a job that pays 7 figures with a great work life balance in a location I enjoy?  Why didn't I think of that? Duh!

A house that’s worth $1M doesn’t necessarily require a 7-figure annual salary. All the other stuff - aim for work-life balance, try to be in a location you enjoy - well, yeah, that part I agree with. It’s about designing the life you want.

For us, it’s not about being spendy or not. It’s about figuring out what we want in life and how to go about achieving it in a fiscally responsible way.

A mortgage on a $1M house is around $6,200/month right now (PITI with 20% down). Would be affordable on anything over $300k income. Doable probably on $200k as long as a decent stash was already built up. Agreed that a 7-figure salary would be overkill.

Yeah, but who puts only 20% down?  We put 70% down, which significantly reduces the weekly payments.

Are Canadian mortgages payable weekly?
US mortgages are (almost exclusively) payable monthly.

Yes. Or bi-weekly, or monthly. And you can switch payment frequency whenever you want. You can also change your payment amount to a certain extent (I.e., make more than your minimum payment). You just need to submit a request to your bank, which can be done through your online banking platform.

[mistymoney]

Many FIRE devotees are too focused on escaping work, and don't have a clear plan of what they're going to do with all that time when they get there. Once you have the position of strength in negotiating your working conditions (FU money), you can work fewer hours, at better rates, with people you enjoy associating with. The most powerful bit of the FIRE strategy is "save most aggressively when you're young so that it has more time to compound." Get that step sorted out, and then you have the freedom to choose between RE, or working more and getting rich.

Retiring early makes sense if you have a vision that requires maximum flexibility and time off. If you want to backpack around the world or homeschool multiple children, that's a good reason to retire. If you want to reskill into an entirely different form of work (or take on work that isn't as lucrative), FI buys you that freedom, but you're still likely to be earning some money. If you just want to travel, hike, or hang out with friends more often... you can do all those things while you have a job. The problem preventing those things isn't work, it's internal.

As far as environmental costs are concerned, there are a lot of things you can spend more money on that aren't imposing any environmental costs. In fact, a lot of fancy expensive things can be better for the environment. Get richer and you can move to a more expensive walkable neighborhood. You can pay a premium for things that were produced in more sustainable ways, or were made locally and didn't need to be shipped across the ocean on a carbon-belching container ship.

I think FIRE had it's moment, and most people realized that FI is the best part, and RE is only really worth it for

• people who really, really hate their jobs, or
• people with really clear (and generally somewhat eccentric) visions for what they're going to fill all that time with

.
For most people who achieve FI and don't want to live in a van or run a weird Catholic/Mormon homeschool operation, the real path to living your best life is to use that leverage to

• downshift into some kind of related work role with fewer hours and greater flexibility, or
• take on some other kind of work that provides lower compensation, but is deeply meaningful/enjoyable.

Work gets a bad name around here, but the idea that work provides a sense of meaning and purpose is not something to be scoffed at. There are lots of great jobs in the world. Once money is no object, it becomes a lot easier to get one of those desirable and competitive jobs. Lots of people are attracted to FIRE because they were pushed by financial desperation into jobs they hate. Well once you're not financially desperate, you can get a job you don't hate. For the big FIRE content creators, they found flexibility, reduced hours, and sense of purpose in providing educational content on the internet about lifestyle and personal finance. Now they're trying to figure out what to do with that money.

I think FIRE is attractive to people who received lots of guilt/shame messages about money as children. If you were conditioned to believe frugality is a virtue and opulent spending is shameful and/or stupid, and then you grind your way through school to get a high-paying career... Well then the FIRE approach lets you exemplify those "virtues" you internalized as child without ever confronting the internal scripts around scarcity. Then someday you realize you're rich and you never exercised the muscle of spending money well to make your life more beautiful. Will second @BeanCounter that Ramit Sethi's stuff is a great counter-balance to the scarcity mindset.

Excellent post and actually puts into words how I lately struggle to align with the FIRE community. We are very fortunate to accumulate wealth at a rate of nearly 1M/year and we are squarely FI. When FIRE community gets notion of that, it immediately turns into a “run dont walk the hell outta there” thing. We see it a bit different. After FI we losened more up, putting in even more trips and experiences while working - in our case totally possible with plenty of holidays and flexibilty with wfh. We dont need RE to live incredibles lives! In fact, if that is the case you likely waste many or even most years! In our case, very soon, our wish to travel full time for 2-3 years will trigger RE. But man, even before that so many things to do and see even when working, family and friends to visit and fulfilling projects. If your job does not allow you to enjoy life, change that first! Imo, more important than to double down in jobs you hate and climb out of that mine at 45, 40, or even 35 years of age feeling those 10, 15, 20 years were not fulfilling your idea of a good life. You dont have to love your job, but ensure it leaves you space to do things you enjoy - a soul crushing job wont btw

One aspect I think is often overlooked is the quality of location while working (and living while working!). I have been offered bigger jobs with 2-3X more money but in crappy boring places with nothing to do but shooting golf balls and ducks, screw that! Likewise, been offered more money moving to congested, polluted and crime-ridden cities, screw that too! What good is a “good” job if you cant enjoy where you live? Our environment is so extremely important for our mental health and also the attainable life quality.
Happiness for us is somewhere inbetween FI, maximizing experiences, decent job that you at least dont hate or crushes your soul and creating an environment that brings you joy every day

This is what I was trying to quote. Accumulating $1 million per year? And could be accumulating 2-3x that but decided to stick with good work life balance? Ok good advice. Next time I have the choice, I'll be sure to pick the $1 million per year job that has more flexibility over the 3 million per year job I wouldn't enjoy as much.

Far to many "brag bros" on this forum lately....It is starting to remind me of Financial Samurai....which is NOT a good thing.

I don't mind if people brag but I just wished to God they would tell me where these 7 figure jobs are at so I could work one of those jobs for one year then retire.

Come on @Redhotdog spill the beans. Or the hot dogs rather.

be serious!

you need 2 years to bank a million......even living small....thats a big tax bill!

[curious_george]

Many FIRE devotees are too focused on escaping work, and don't have a clear plan of what they're going to do with all that time when they get there. Once you have the position of strength in negotiating your working conditions (FU money), you can work fewer hours, at better rates, with people you enjoy associating with. The most powerful bit of the FIRE strategy is "save most aggressively when you're young so that it has more time to compound." Get that step sorted out, and then you have the freedom to choose between RE, or working more and getting rich.

Retiring early makes sense if you have a vision that requires maximum flexibility and time off. If you want to backpack around the world or homeschool multiple children, that's a good reason to retire. If you want to reskill into an entirely different form of work (or take on work that isn't as lucrative), FI buys you that freedom, but you're still likely to be earning some money. If you just want to travel, hike, or hang out with friends more often... you can do all those things while you have a job. The problem preventing those things isn't work, it's internal.

As far as environmental costs are concerned, there are a lot of things you can spend more money on that aren't imposing any environmental costs. In fact, a lot of fancy expensive things can be better for the environment. Get richer and you can move to a more expensive walkable neighborhood. You can pay a premium for things that were produced in more sustainable ways, or were made locally and didn't need to be shipped across the ocean on a carbon-belching container ship.

I think FIRE had it's moment, and most people realized that FI is the best part, and RE is only really worth it for

• people who really, really hate their jobs, or
• people with really clear (and generally somewhat eccentric) visions for what they're going to fill all that time with

.
For most people who achieve FI and don't want to live in a van or run a weird Catholic/Mormon homeschool operation, the real path to living your best life is to use that leverage to

• downshift into some kind of related work role with fewer hours and greater flexibility, or
• take on some other kind of work that provides lower compensation, but is deeply meaningful/enjoyable.

Work gets a bad name around here, but the idea that work provides a sense of meaning and purpose is not something to be scoffed at. There are lots of great jobs in the world. Once money is no object, it becomes a lot easier to get one of those desirable and competitive jobs. Lots of people are attracted to FIRE because they were pushed by financial desperation into jobs they hate. Well once you're not financially desperate, you can get a job you don't hate. For the big FIRE content creators, they found flexibility, reduced hours, and sense of purpose in providing educational content on the internet about lifestyle and personal finance. Now they're trying to figure out what to do with that money.

I think FIRE is attractive to people who received lots of guilt/shame messages about money as children. If you were conditioned to believe frugality is a virtue and opulent spending is shameful and/or stupid, and then you grind your way through school to get a high-paying career... Well then the FIRE approach lets you exemplify those "virtues" you internalized as child without ever confronting the internal scripts around scarcity. Then someday you realize you're rich and you never exercised the muscle of spending money well to make your life more beautiful. Will second @BeanCounter that Ramit Sethi's stuff is a great counter-balance to the scarcity mindset.

Excellent post and actually puts into words how I lately struggle to align with the FIRE community. We are very fortunate to accumulate wealth at a rate of nearly 1M/year and we are squarely FI. When FIRE community gets notion of that, it immediately turns into a “run dont walk the hell outta there” thing. We see it a bit different. After FI we losened more up, putting in even more trips and experiences while working - in our case totally possible with plenty of holidays and flexibilty with wfh. We dont need RE to live incredibles lives! In fact, if that is the case you likely waste many or even most years! In our case, very soon, our wish to travel full time for 2-3 years will trigger RE. But man, even before that so many things to do and see even when working, family and friends to visit and fulfilling projects. If your job does not allow you to enjoy life, change that first! Imo, more important than to double down in jobs you hate and climb out of that mine at 45, 40, or even 35 years of age feeling those 10, 15, 20 years were not fulfilling your idea of a good life. You dont have to love your job, but ensure it leaves you space to do things you enjoy - a soul crushing job wont btw

One aspect I think is often overlooked is the quality of location while working (and living while working!). I have been offered bigger jobs with 2-3X more money but in crappy boring places with nothing to do but shooting golf balls and ducks, screw that! Likewise, been offered more money moving to congested, polluted and crime-ridden cities, screw that too! What good is a “good” job if you cant enjoy where you live? Our environment is so extremely important for our mental health and also the attainable life quality.
Happiness for us is somewhere inbetween FI, maximizing experiences, decent job that you at least dont hate or crushes your soul and creating an environment that brings you joy every day

This is what I was trying to quote. Accumulating $1 million per year? And could be accumulating 2-3x that but decided to stick with good work life balance? Ok good advice. Next time I have the choice, I'll be sure to pick the $1 million per year job that has more flexibility over the 3 million per year job I wouldn't enjoy as much.

Far to many "brag bros" on this forum lately....It is starting to remind me of Financial Samurai....which is NOT a good thing.

I don't mind if people brag but I just wished to God they would tell me where these 7 figure jobs are at so I could work one of those jobs for one year then retire.

Come on @Redhotdog spill the beans. Or the hot dogs rather.

be serious!

you need 2 years to bank a million......even living small....thats a big tax bill!

I already have 1.5 million.

If I work a 7 figure job I could bank 500k after taxes, which would put me at 2 million. I would then feel comfortable retiring.

Unless I wanted a lambo or million dollar house or something...then I might be tempted to just keep working.

[2sk22]

There is also the power of compounding. I recently looked up an old net worth spreadsheet from 2003 and we found that were at about $443k. Now, it's well into in the "beyond" territory. I have been retired for two and a half years and I just don't feel the need to be quite as frugal as I used to be.

[RetiredAt63]

We peasants don't make 6 figure salaries, let alone 7.  I never made that, still don't have that in retirement.  That is in Canadian dollars, not US, so that much lower by US standards.   I am living pretty luxuriously - by my standards. 

[Ron Scott]

Yeah, but who puts only 20% down?  We put 70% down,

In the US the average down payment is about 7% for first time buyers, and about 17% for repeat buyers. Borrowers are required to hold private mortgage insurance until their equity level reaches 20%.

An FHA mortgage requires 3.5% down.

[RetiredAt63]

Yeah, but who puts only 20% down?  We put 70% down,

In the US the average down payment is about 7% for first time buyers, and about 17% for repeat buyers. Borrowers are required to hold private mortgage insurance until their equity level reaches 20%.

An FHA mortgage requires 3.5% down.

GuitarStv left the /s off his remark.  Because of course we mustachians put at least the 20% down (Canada has similar lending rules). 

[Philociraptor]

Yeah, but who puts only 20% down?  We put 70% down,

In the US the average down payment is about 7% for first time buyers, and about 17% for repeat buyers. Borrowers are required to hold private mortgage insurance until their equity level reaches 20%.

An FHA mortgage requires 3.5% down.

GuitarStv left the /s off his remark.  Because of course we mustachians put at least the 20% down (Canada has similar lending rules).

If you're going conventional, you can actually put less than 20% down and pay for the PMI policy as a lump sum instead of an ongoing mortgage line item. So we put ~$30k less down on our house and paid $900 one time. We were then able to deploy that extra $30k into the market during a dip, which has easily made up for the $900 policy 3 times over already. Conventional loans are much more forgiving.

In other news, when we reported our incomes and assets they prequalified us for a $1.2MM loan... we stuck with 1/4 of that on our purchase, thank you very much. Absolutely insane lending standards here in the US.

[TomTX]

I am starting to think I am too poor for this forum ...

Like Laura, I’ve been a fan of FIRE and MMM for a long time, but I was never really on board with the $24k.

Let's all keep in mind that the actual original 2010 MMM spending was $30,500 - at the tail end of a mortgage. 2011 was $28.5k with nearly no mortgage spend ($27k excluding the mortgage they paid off early in the year). 2012 was $25k with no mortgage.

Pete also lives in an area with relatively low property taxes. I'm sure his house at the time was worth 2x what mine was, yet I was the one paying 2x more in property taxes.

So, let's inflation adjust the original year of Pete's spending.

In 2023 dollars, Pete spent $42.2k in 2010. That's pretty close to double the oft-quoted 24k/year (with a paid off house).

Even if we take the first actual no-mortgage year of 2012, it's still $33k in today's dollars

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/27/exposed-the-mmm-familys-actual-spending/
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-familys-2011-spending/
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/01/21/exposed-the-mmm-familys-2012-spending/
(all the numbers are in the 3rd linked article)

[Sanitary Stache]

As @mistymoney wrote, not all spending is equal.  If it was equally bad, say, then we could simply apply a conversion factor from dollars to human suffering and environmental destruction.  Unfortunately, some spending doesn't harm life on earth as much as most spending does (do I need the /s here?)

Spending itself isn't the thing we should be worried about.  What we spend on must be the concern.  A new electric car? Facepunch. It is still a personal vehicle, get over your unearned sense of luxury (I see why Pete created MMM, I have my own car and my own unearned entitlement to luxury which makes it hard to give a Facepunch.).  A new smart television - what is your favorite show? - Facepunch. Do you really need a computer on your desk, a computer in your car, a computer in your hand, and a computer on your wall to watch a show that you could receive with an antennae?  Computers are full of harmful resources (see mistymoney's book recommendations) we need to reduce our use of those harmful resources.  $2 chuck. Facepunch.  Why are you externalizing the cost of your food to human rights violations, animal cruelty, and toxic water ways?

Some spending is incredible.  Renovating apartments with insulation and greenspace and building higher density housing units.  Converting to electric. Spending to inprove efficiency of resources and boost a circular economy.  And could even be a source of income. But wait, Facepunch.  You already have enough, stop taking resources from people that don't.  (This is a pretty thin argument right here and I don't have a fully developed opinion on property ownership, profit limits, or earning income from market rate rents in an environment of homelessness and poverty).

Anyway.  I came for @Log's post and there were several other good posts here as well, but now I am really feeling the perspective that there is too much acceptance of consumption or at least not enough challenging of it.  Whereas, I usually appreciate the variety of opinions, perspectives, and philosophies.  It isn't the forum being soft that I get uneasy about, it is me staying soft.

[ChpBstrd]

I came for @Log's post and there were several other good posts here as well, but now I am really feeling the perspective that there is too much acceptance of consumption or at least not enough challenging of it.  Whereas, I usually appreciate the variety of opinions, perspectives, and philosophies.  It isn't the forum being soft that I get uneasy about, it is me staying soft.

Thank you for the facepunches. They are rare treasures and necessary medicine. We should be punching each other more.

Every cult reaches the stage where all the people willing to make enormous sacrifices or to live radically different than the mainstream have already been recruited. To continue growing, the cult must become less costly to new members. This pressure to water things down creates inevitable internal tension between the priorities of the cult's "truth" and growth. The conflict prompts the most hardcore members to walk away or schism, but to the extent the cult does water down its harshest requirements it becomes popular with a whole new demographic.

Methodism used to ban drinking, dancing, secular music, certain foods, certain clothes, etc. in the early 20th century. They slowly changed as they emerged from the fringe and became a mainstream denomination and now have very few behavioral restrictions.

MMM has experienced a similar shift. The hardcore frugal members are shocked by the acceptance of crude consumerist behavior and attitudes like the old school Methodists were once shocked by mid-20th-century fashion worn in church. The difference is we MMMers don't think the consumerists will get a binary heaven/hell outcome, we just think they'll work longer, create a worse environmental impact, and live worse lifestyles.

We could help them with facepunches, but the arm gets tired and the knuckles get raw when we are absolutely surrounded by people who claim to care about their financial lives and personal well-being while driving their SUVs to buy 65" TVs from WalMart. Those TVs will be toxic trash on the curb in 3-4 years after extracting another thousand bucks in streaming subscriptions, and yet another grand in electricity. Yet such people now outnumber us and set the culture here. That's the internal tension.

Fuck. Pick up a Hardees milkshake and Baconator(r) from the drive-thru on the way. Just die already and quit posing as a disciple of MMM. :)

[cannotWAIT]

I am starting to think I am too poor for this forum ...

Like Laura, I’ve been a fan of FIRE and MMM for a long time, but I was never really on board with the $24k.

Let's all keep in mind that the actual original 2010 MMM spending was $30,500 - at the tail end of a mortgage. 2011 was $28.5k with nearly no mortgage spend ($27k excluding the mortgage they paid off early in the year). 2012 was $25k with no mortgage.

Pete also lives in an area with relatively low property taxes. I'm sure his house at the time was worth 2x what mine was, yet I was the one paying 2x more in property taxes.

So, let's inflation adjust the original year of Pete's spending.

In 2023 dollars, Pete spent $42.2k in 2010. That's pretty close to double the oft-quoted 24k/year (with a paid off house).

Even if we take the first actual no-mortgage year of 2012, it's still $33k in today's dollars

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/27/exposed-the-mmm-familys-actual-spending/
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-familys-2011-spending/
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/01/21/exposed-the-mmm-familys-2012-spending/
(all the numbers are in the 3rd linked article)

Wow. I honestly find all of the FIRE forums completely baffling. I don't even understand what people are spending their money on. My life is perfectly comfortable and I've never even gotten close to $33K in spending. Where are all the other people like me? I'm constantly looking for posts by people at my financial level and I really start to question my perception of reality. Am I poor? I don't feel poor! At least until I get on these forums where 80% of posts are by people with huge DB pensions and millions invested sincerely wondering if they can retire. I don't feel like I live like a "lean fire" person at all. I have a nice house in a great historic neighborhood, wear cute clothes, buy the organic chicken from the food co-op, etc. It is so confusing.

[Malossi792]

I am starting to think I am too poor for this forum ...

Like Laura, I’ve been a fan of FIRE and MMM for a long time, but I was never really on board with the $24k.

Let's all keep in mind that the actual original 2010 MMM spending was $30,500 - at the tail end of a mortgage. 2011 was $28.5k with nearly no mortgage spend ($27k excluding the mortgage they paid off early in the year). 2012 was $25k with no mortgage.

Pete also lives in an area with relatively low property taxes. I'm sure his house at the time was worth 2x what mine was, yet I was the one paying 2x more in property taxes.

So, let's inflation adjust the original year of Pete's spending.

In 2023 dollars, Pete spent $42.2k in 2010. That's pretty close to double the oft-quoted 24k/year (with a paid off house).

Even if we take the first actual no-mortgage year of 2012, it's still $33k in today's dollars

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/27/exposed-the-mmm-familys-actual-spending/
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-familys-2011-spending/
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/01/21/exposed-the-mmm-familys-2012-spending/
(all the numbers are in the 3rd linked article)

Wow. I honestly find all of the FIRE forums completely baffling. I don't even understand what people are spending their money on. My life is perfectly comfortable and I've never even gotten close to $33K in spending. Where are all the other people like me? I'm constantly looking for posts by people at my financial level and I really start to question my perception of reality. Am I poor? I don't feel poor! At least until I get on these forums where 80% of posts are by people with huge DB pensions and millions invested sincerely wondering if they can retire. I don't feel like I live like a "lean fire" person at all. I have a nice house in a great historic neighborhood, wear cute clothes, buy the organic chicken from the food co-op, etc. It is so confusing.

As someone said before, it's the times ..
Great times are behind us for any asset you can think of (well not the last year, but if you zoom out to 10 or 20 it gets pretty).
The people who were serious about this stuff 10 years ago are either retired / MIA, or still working OMY and pondering on here if they should retire or try to build generational wealth. Guess which group posts more?
I am also in your camp, living in a nice (for me, at last) house bought cheap before the bubble, which isn't worth much even now, but it suits a young family just fine. Driving an old, cheap car which still looks cool (to me), has been reliable, easy to drive, easy on fuel... Bike commuting a couple days a week. I honestly enjoy maintaining a rural-style, though small, garden, stacking firewood, mowing the lawn etc.
You could say I'm a very content person. Just don't get me started about the job...
I don't spend much, not even sure what I "should" be spending more money on. Then I come here and get sticker shock just peeking at some budgets.
I think there's still many people like me, but mostly lurking, because, what should I write posts about? Everything has already been said about "the simple life".
I do enjoy the conversation on here :)

[StarBright]

Wow. I honestly find all of the FIRE forums completely baffling. I don't even understand what people are spending their money on. My life is perfectly comfortable and I've never even gotten close to $33K in spending. Where are all the other people like me? I'm constantly looking for posts by people at my financial level and I really start to question my perception of reality. Am I poor? I don't feel poor! At least until I get on these forums where 80% of posts are by people with huge DB pensions and millions invested sincerely wondering if they can retire. I don't feel like I live like a "lean fire" person at all. I have a nice house in a great historic neighborhood, wear cute clothes, buy the organic chicken from the food co-op, etc. It is so confusing.

As someone else mentioned upthread, a lot of us that have been here a long time have had some pretty drastic lifestyle changes since we first logged on (including having kids). Before we had kids I know we were spending less than 30k a year because we only made 45k and we were saving a big chunk.

So I would say a big question is what is your household size? - are you single? part of a DINK couple? have a family? You may be comparing apples to oranges.

Our current annual spend for a family of 4 is running 65-67k for the last few years. But over 10k of that is health insurance and healthcare, another few thousand to charity each year. If we didn't have kids I could knock another 4k off our budget immediately and beyond that we would make different lifestyle choices that would be cheaper as well (did you know two rear facing carseats don't fit in the back of an 03 corolla? :) )

So now we sound like a medium spend family - but we sure didn't a decade ago.

And I feel poorer than I did when we made a third as much - but it is mostly because of time paucity. My life felt super luxurious when I had time. Now I spend money to get time back.

[Travis]

Listening to Pete on the Choose FI podcast, it occurred to me I have been hearing a lot of discussion in the FI and FIRE podcast universe about the importance of spending and not just being so frugal all of the time. They are referencing the “Die with Zero” book, among other things. Is it my imagination, or is this an emerging strain of philosophy in the FIRE universe?

I noticed years ago that Choose FI never put much emphasis on the RE part. Their material was heavy with ways to save money and spend less, but overall they leaned heavily on the "deliberate spending" mantra. For Pete, I reach back to a TED Talk-style forum he spoke at years ago where he started off with the Shockingly Simple Math, but ended by talking about how liberating working and creating felt when money wasn't the driving factor. It felt like he was leaving room for continuing to work a regular job, but having FI/FU money meant you could be more choosy about it.

[sixwings]

They are referencing the “Die with Zero” book

I remember an early Pete interview where he said he didn't have any ideas about leaving a legacy with his money, but it seemed more in the realm of "I stopped working at a young age and there might not be much left beyond a respectable inheritance for the kid(s)."

Having said that, people change, and while Pete once wrote about what I thought was a very weird respectably unconventional road trip where he used a spray bottle on the dash instead of the AC, he may simply want to do lots of cool stuff that costs more money, not less right now.

Lastly, romantic partners can influence behavior, too.

lol I remember reading a post from Pete about how he felt canola oil was the perfect snack because it was filling and cost like a penny per serving. He would carry a bottle of it around with him and take a slug whenever he felt hungry. I doubt he does that now or would recommend it.

This has been an interesting post, for me, I get a lot of personal satisfaction from work, we are very much track for our savings targets and as a result we have more income we can spend on things that we enjoy right now. We could save more to try to retire early, but we're not actually interested in that right now.

[FIRE 20/20]

I think FIRE had it's moment, and most people realized that FI is the best part, and RE is only really worth it for

• people who really, really hate their jobs, or
• people with really clear (and generally somewhat eccentric) visions for what they're going to fill all that time with

.
For most people who achieve FI and don't want to live in a van or run a weird Catholic/Mormon homeschool operation, the real path to living your best life is to use that leverage to

• downshift into some kind of related work role with fewer hours and greater flexibility, or
• take on some other kind of work that provides lower compensation, but is deeply meaningful/enjoyable.

You make a lot of good points, but I think you're assuming a lot about why people might FIRE and how they want to live.  I had a great job; it was a good fit for me, paid very well, I was able to assemble my own team, and had fantastic bosses.  I didn't have anything in particular that I wanted to FIRE to.  I definitely don't want to do anything that would earn money after achieving FIRE.  The important thing for me since I FIREd about 3 years ago is having completely freedom over my time.  Any paid work gets in the way of that.  My 3 years of FIRE have been the best of my life, and by far the #1 reason is that when I wake up every morning I can do whatever I want to.  For me, freedom is the reason even though I had no vision for what I was going to fill my time with. 

[Sugaree]

I'm going to be working until 57 in order to keep my insurance anyway.  I got a late start, so I needed the low-spend FIRE mentality to get caught up.  But now that I'm maxing out TSP/IRA/HSA and contributing to my kid's 529 and UTMA and *still* have money left over?  Yeah, I'm inflating my lifestyle a little. 

[TomTX]

I noticed years ago that Choose FI never put much emphasis on the RE part. Their material was heavy with ways to save money and spend less, but overall they leaned heavily on the "deliberate spending" mantra. For Pete, I reach back to a TED Talk-style forum he spoke at years ago where he started off with the Shockingly Simple Math, but ended by talking about how liberating working and creating felt when money wasn't the driving factor. It felt like he was leaving room for continuing to work a regular job, but having FI/FU money meant you could be more choosy about it.

This the SWAMI designation. I'm FI and choose to continue to work.

[getsorted]

My life is perfectly comfortable and I've never even gotten close to $33K in spending. Where are all the other people like me?

My annual spending is less than yours, including a mortgage, a renovation in progress, a school-age kid, and still working. But... there are all kinds of things I'd spend more money on if I had the chance!

[Log]

I am starting to think I am too poor for this forum ...

Like Laura, I’ve been a fan of FIRE and MMM for a long time, but I was never really on board with the $24k.

Let's all keep in mind that the actual original 2010 MMM spending was $30,500 - at the tail end of a mortgage. 2011 was $28.5k with nearly no mortgage spend ($27k excluding the mortgage they paid off early in the year). 2012 was $25k with no mortgage.

Pete also lives in an area with relatively low property taxes. I'm sure his house at the time was worth 2x what mine was, yet I was the one paying 2x more in property taxes.

So, let's inflation adjust the original year of Pete's spending.

In 2023 dollars, Pete spent $42.2k in 2010. That's pretty close to double the oft-quoted 24k/year (with a paid off house).

Even if we take the first actual no-mortgage year of 2012, it's still $33k in today's dollars...

This is a great point. Add rent back in if you're more JL Collins-minded, and you're easily talking $50-60k in today's dollars depending on your local housing market, at the same level of frugality that Pete espouses. Measuring consumption in terms of spending ignores that having a payed off mortgage on a single family home actually comes at higher environmental cost than renting in a more energy-efficient multi-family building, and that if all those mortgage payments had gone into the market instead, those investments would be covering housing costs in the same way that having a paid of mortgage does. And additionally, as a renter you never have to do electrical work or replace a roof or repaint the siding or any of that garbage.

Keep in mind that Pete is a guy who loves building things with his hands and solving little engineering problems. In-sourcing home projects and doing renovations with friends is a form of work that he enjoys—the compensation is just often in savings rather than direct income. Other people hate those kinds of household tasks, and would much rather get paid for work they enjoy more in order to outsource those things. Pete's beliefs about insourcing come from the implicit calculation that he personally finds these household tasks more rewarding than the equivalent dollar amount of additional software work.

Remember also that for his first couple years of retirement he intended to make an actual business of building and selling houses—that's a lot of work! Even if he'd never written a blog post in his life, he'd still have bloated his retirement savings beyond what he originally "needed" from income on his handyman projects for friends and neighbors. And he still has work to infuse his life with some structure and meaning. He says himself when he goes too long without a project that he gets listless and antsy. All FIRE means is he was free to choose a lower-paying kind of work, and do a lot less of it. What's the difference between 10 hours a week of insourcing and helping friends with home projects, or 10 hours a week of consulting or contract work in your original field?

[mistymoney]

Many FIRE devotees are too focused on escaping work, and don't have a clear plan of what they're going to do with all that time when they get there. Once you have the position of strength in negotiating your working conditions (FU money), you can work fewer hours, at better rates, with people you enjoy associating with. The most powerful bit of the FIRE strategy is "save most aggressively when you're young so that it has more time to compound." Get that step sorted out, and then you have the freedom to choose between RE, or working more and getting rich.

Retiring early makes sense if you have a vision that requires maximum flexibility and time off. If you want to backpack around the world or homeschool multiple children, that's a good reason to retire. If you want to reskill into an entirely different form of work (or take on work that isn't as lucrative), FI buys you that freedom, but you're still likely to be earning some money. If you just want to travel, hike, or hang out with friends more often... you can do all those things while you have a job. The problem preventing those things isn't work, it's internal.

As far as environmental costs are concerned, there are a lot of things you can spend more money on that aren't imposing any environmental costs. In fact, a lot of fancy expensive things can be better for the environment. Get richer and you can move to a more expensive walkable neighborhood. You can pay a premium for things that were produced in more sustainable ways, or were made locally and didn't need to be shipped across the ocean on a carbon-belching container ship.

I think FIRE had it's moment, and most people realized that FI is the best part, and RE is only really worth it for

• people who really, really hate their jobs, or
• people with really clear (and generally somewhat eccentric) visions for what they're going to fill all that time with

.
For most people who achieve FI and don't want to live in a van or run a weird Catholic/Mormon homeschool operation, the real path to living your best life is to use that leverage to

• downshift into some kind of related work role with fewer hours and greater flexibility, or
• take on some other kind of work that provides lower compensation, but is deeply meaningful/enjoyable.

Work gets a bad name around here, but the idea that work provides a sense of meaning and purpose is not something to be scoffed at. There are lots of great jobs in the world. Once money is no object, it becomes a lot easier to get one of those desirable and competitive jobs. Lots of people are attracted to FIRE because they were pushed by financial desperation into jobs they hate. Well once you're not financially desperate, you can get a job you don't hate. For the big FIRE content creators, they found flexibility, reduced hours, and sense of purpose in providing educational content on the internet about lifestyle and personal finance. Now they're trying to figure out what to do with that money.

I think FIRE is attractive to people who received lots of guilt/shame messages about money as children. If you were conditioned to believe frugality is a virtue and opulent spending is shameful and/or stupid, and then you grind your way through school to get a high-paying career... Well then the FIRE approach lets you exemplify those "virtues" you internalized as child without ever confronting the internal scripts around scarcity. Then someday you realize you're rich and you never exercised the muscle of spending money well to make your life more beautiful. Will second @BeanCounter that Ramit Sethi's stuff is a great counter-balance to the scarcity mindset.

Excellent post and actually puts into words how I lately struggle to align with the FIRE community. We are very fortunate to accumulate wealth at a rate of nearly 1M/year and we are squarely FI. When FIRE community gets notion of that, it immediately turns into a “run dont walk the hell outta there” thing. We see it a bit different. After FI we losened more up, putting in even more trips and experiences while working - in our case totally possible with plenty of holidays and flexibilty with wfh. We dont need RE to live incredibles lives! In fact, if that is the case you likely waste many or even most years! In our case, very soon, our wish to travel full time for 2-3 years will trigger RE. But man, even before that so many things to do and see even when working, family and friends to visit and fulfilling projects. If your job does not allow you to enjoy life, change that first! Imo, more important than to double down in jobs you hate and climb out of that mine at 45, 40, or even 35 years of age feeling those 10, 15, 20 years were not fulfilling your idea of a good life. You dont have to love your job, but ensure it leaves you space to do things you enjoy - a soul crushing job wont btw

One aspect I think is often overlooked is the quality of location while working (and living while working!). I have been offered bigger jobs with 2-3X more money but in crappy boring places with nothing to do but shooting golf balls and ducks, screw that! Likewise, been offered more money moving to congested, polluted and crime-ridden cities, screw that too! What good is a “good” job if you cant enjoy where you live? Our environment is so extremely important for our mental health and also the attainable life quality.
Happiness for us is somewhere inbetween FI, maximizing experiences, decent job that you at least dont hate or crushes your soul and creating an environment that brings you joy every day

This is what I was trying to quote. Accumulating $1 million per year? And could be accumulating 2-3x that but decided to stick with good work life balance? Ok good advice. Next time I have the choice, I'll be sure to pick the $1 million per year job that has more flexibility over the 3 million per year job I wouldn't enjoy as much.

Far to many "brag bros" on this forum lately....It is starting to remind me of Financial Samurai....which is NOT a good thing.

I don't mind if people brag but I just wished to God they would tell me where these 7 figure jobs are at so I could work one of those jobs for one year then retire.

Come on @Redhotdog spill the beans. Or the hot dogs rather.

be serious!

you need 2 years to bank a million......even living small....thats a big tax bill!

I already have 1.5 million.

If I work a 7 figure job I could bank 500k after taxes, which would put me at 2 million. I would then feel comfortable retiring.

Unless I wanted a lambo or million dollar house or something...then I might be tempted to just keep working.

then you should get there pretty quick - and likely not worth trying to find the "big" job for it. Job searches take a long time! New jobs are stressful! Winding up old job is a lot too.

Just need to keep trucking....and have the SP500 have a +30% year :)

[Zikoris]

I think FIRE had it's moment, and most people realized that FI is the best part, and RE is only really worth it for

• people who really, really hate their jobs, or
• people with really clear (and generally somewhat eccentric) visions for what they're going to fill all that time with

.
For most people who achieve FI and don't want to live in a van or run a weird Catholic/Mormon homeschool operation, the real path to living your best life is to use that leverage to

• downshift into some kind of related work role with fewer hours and greater flexibility, or
• take on some other kind of work that provides lower compensation, but is deeply meaningful/enjoyable.

You make a lot of good points, but I think you're assuming a lot about why people might FIRE and how they want to live.  I had a great job; it was a good fit for me, paid very well, I was able to assemble my own team, and had fantastic bosses.  I didn't have anything in particular that I wanted to FIRE to.  I definitely don't want to do anything that would earn money after achieving FIRE.  The important thing for me since I FIREd about 3 years ago is having completely freedom over my time.  Any paid work gets in the way of that.  My 3 years of FIRE have been the best of my life, and by far the #1 reason is that when I wake up every morning I can do whatever I want to.  For me, freedom is the reason even though I had no vision for what I was going to fill my time with.

Agreed. I don't have firm plans for post-retirement, and feel no need to. I have a loose plan to do a substantial amount of long-term travel and pursue various other interests more than I do now, but I am a strong believer in "only boring people are bored", and have no doubt I can find plenty of fun and interesting things to do. I don't dislike my job, in fact it's the best/chillest job I've had yet (hint: according to Goodreads I read 415 books last year, and 475 the year before that), but at the end of the day I just don't like alarm clocks, restrictions on my time, and the overall concept of work. I do not socialize with coworkers or feel any sort of personal identity-stuff related to my job. Work is strictly a means to an end for me.

[force majeure]

I have not seen lifestyle-creep amongst my group of frugaloops.
Everyone has a different reason for pursuing FIRE.
For me, it was a feeling of not fitting into the corporate world, and PMP bolloxology.
I dont respond well to criticism.

I like the analogy of the Victorian British gentleman... you must have a passive income stream... work or the thought of working for a living, was something to be avoided at all costs.

[Ron Scott]

Wow. I honestly find all of the FIRE forums completely baffling. I don't even understand what people are spending their money on. My life is perfectly comfortable and I've never even gotten close to $33K in spending.

Just a FYI, BLS publishes an annual update on consumer spending. There’s a good amount of detail what people are spending their money on.

Here’s what they got for 2021:

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/consumer-expenditures/2021/home.htm