HALP! Raison d'être is the definition of anti-mustachian!

[Mossy 757]

Greetings everyone, this is my first post and I want to get directly to the point: I wish to reap the bountiful rewards of a mustachian lifestyle, but over the last 3 years I have fallen deeply in love with kiteboarding and within the last 2 years have developed a specific focus on racing high performance carbon fiber hydrofoils. This has become the reason I wake up in the morning and one of the driving forces in my life when it comes to my motivation to work, my primary physical fitness outlet, and the source of most of the meaningful friendships in my life. I'm currently unmarried but living with a girl and we've been dating for about 2.5 years, living together for about 15 months. She contributes about ~$250/month to the household as she's only making about $11/hour and has over 60k in personal and student debt that she's trying to pay off...she's not a mustachian, despite my best efforts to align both our lifestyles to this way of thinking.

I've spent the last year trying half-heartedly to reduce my spending and increase my savings in other areas of my life, but I find myself constantly struggling with rationalizations about defining my life and source of happiness around kiting. There are massive financial burdens associated with this sport in the form of equipment acquisition, maintenance, and repair costs as well as travel expenses to attend races along the east coast of the US where I live. I almost always carpool with a buddy to share driving costs and we usually camp in the cheapest accommodations possible and buy the cheapest food we can when we're on the road, but I'm unable to afford my hobby AND execute a reasonable plan to reach my FI goals.

I've read the articles by MMM about how luxury is a weakness and that hedonic adaptation means I will never be happy because of my toys, but this sport is more to me than just a truck, boat, RV...this is a lifestyle and personal identity I crave that brings me immense feelings of fulfillment and meaning. I also view my body as a depreciating asset, regardless of the steps I take to maintain good health, and find myself asking "will I regret not doing this when I'm 80?" a LOT more than I think is healthy. Am I totally insane?

Here are my numbers...it's not pretty. I know there's room to trim my spending, but I'm more struggling with the macro-economics of this relative to kite racing.

Monthly
Betterment Savings Accounts = $750 (direct deposit)
Mortgage Principal = $509
Mortgage Int., Tax, Ins. = $977
Property tax (Car) = $41 (monthly direct deposit to an escrow account that I pay off annually)
Netflix = $10
LinkedIn professional membership = $120 (despite my best negotiating attempts, my employer refuses to subsidize this and it is borderline critical to do my job as a professional recruiter*)
Gym membership = $30
Vehicle and personal property premium= $100
Cell phone and data = $105 (See LinkedIn note*)
Internet = $80 (" " " *)
Power = ~$105
Water = ~$20
Sewage/wastewater = ~$20
Public Utilities = ~$160
Gasoline = $300
Food = $400
Dog = $100 (auto-deposit to savings to cover food and incidentals)
__________
$3827 monthly spend

After-tax income = $3886

Savings rate = 32.4%


Kite costs:
Hydrofoil and board - $2500
1 Kite each for light wind, medium wind, heavy wind (total of 3) - Current setup represents a $5100 investment, kites wear out after about 24-30 months and need to be replaced at approx $1500-2400/each.
Harness, safety equipment, control bars and lines, repair materials - $2000 up front cost, $300 annual recurring cost.
Regatta entry fees - ~$600/year, average is $75/event
Gas/tolls - I have built this cost into my monthly fuel number. I still commute to work, which is dumb, but the $300/month number above includes a 40% buffer for road trips and weekend driving to kiting and normal sailing events, which occupy 75% of my weekends during the spring/summer/fall months.


Can someone please knock some damned sense into me and tell me why my life would be better if I could just quit this crap cold turkey?!

-Tim

[WildJager]

I don't think it's a matter of cutting out this hobby, as it's a healthy one and much better than just feeling a longing around the house.  I'm a paraglider myself, so I get it.  However, there is a difference between the enjoyment of something and participating in the elite aspects of it if you can't afford it.

I'll let others talk to your basic finances.  For your hobby, id suggest finding a way to subsidize it and make it pay for itself instead of just being on the consumer end.  Basically, if you're good enough to race, you're good enough to teach.  I would consider racing a luxury after you've made enough money teaching kite boarding on the weekends to pay for everything related to the hobby. 

I turned my expensive hobbies of flying and skydiving into a profession because I knew it wasn't cost effective to pay for all my sky time on my own.  While not as "fun", there is definitely something satisfying about doing something you love in a productive manner beyond just winning competition.  I'm sure you'll enjoy teaching (or a similar side gig) if you decide to pursue it. 

I paraglide instead of fly or skydive because it's frankly just way more cost effective.  There are obvious limitations, but that's part of the never ending trade-off of resources.

[powskier]

I  "retired" ( I was just following my passion and living on $500/month) from age 23 to 40 as a dedicated ski bum on a tiny budget. I am now playing catch up and skiing less. Life and youth are short. I avoided getting in to kiting because my budget and high risk sport ratio was already too high :)
Just beware the trap of believing you need the absolute newest coolest crap all the time and keep your savings rate at least where you are at. Most athletes( especially kiters it seems) end up being forced to tone it down eventually from injuries. Just enjoy it for now dude , 34% savings rate is fine.

[Cannot Wait!]

I'd be more worried about the long term effects of the anti-mustachian, low income, low contributing, debt ridden girlfriend personally.  Or is that too harsh?
Welcome to the forums.

[UKMustache]

Welcome to the forums.

The first thing I would ask is whether you could make a living from working in / around your hobby?
I used to be a recruiter (for my sins) and I introduced MMM to a colleague (he may or may not be on the forums too).  He quit his recruitment job and got a job in a mountain bike shop while he got his own mountain bike instruction business off the ground, last I heard he's doing well.

Now on to things that stand out in the budget:

• Change employers, seriously.  Why are you paying for your own linkedin / business mobile?  That's ridiculous and I don't know any other agencies that would expect you to do this.
• Gym, you have a very active hobby but pay to lift weights in a room?  Cut it
• Food, seems a little high to me but it can vary geographically so I'll give the benefit of the doubt.

[VladTheImpaler]

Welcome to the forums Mossy 757,

You definitely do not have to give up your hobby!
It sounds like you are on the right track by analyzing your expenses and trying to cut out things that don't matter to you or don't add value.

Things that jumped out at me was:
$300 for gas per month...how far are you driving for these kiting events on the weekends?
Gym membership...cut it, you don't need it. You are already getting exercise with your hobby.
$400 for Food...I guarantee that you can cut that in half by eating at home. I spend <$200/month on food and I am a big healthy guy, I just eat at home and pack lunches for work.
$105 for phone...Go sign up for Google Project Fi. Guarantee that even if you live on your phone, it will still cut your monthly bill in half. I pay $25/month for Google Fi.
The last one I hesitant to mention...the girlfriend? Your description of her financial situation was high student loan debt and super low wages. That's a hefty burden to bare. Without knowing any other details I will simply ask a rhetorical question, what is she bringing to your situation? In what ways is she paying her fair share and contributing?
Other than that, you are asking the right questions and sounds like you are well on your way!

[Johnez]

Hello Mossy, I'd say that is a rad fricken hobby. Ever thought of getting sponsored? Back in the day some skater friends of mine would pine to get sponsored for free decks, shoes, and clothes. It sounds like your hobby isn't quite mainstream yet, which IMO makes a perfect opportunity to stand out.

[aceyou]

I think you are one of those cases where you'll simply have to increase your income.  I mean, you are making ends meet right now.  So, logically, if you ferociously seek our a job that pays lets say 40k more per year, then poof, you are on a path towards FI and you can keep your hobby. 

I mean, math is math.  If you want to become FI, as you say you do, you have to decrease spending or increase income.  Since you don't want to decrease spending, and for good reason, it seems like you should be laser focused on earning more like your hobby depends on it:) 

And yeah, your girlfriend is the #1 cause of concern.  Cause even if you earn more, if that relationship gets more serious, it ain't gonna matter.  She's going to ensure that your money gets spent:)

[NESailor]

Oh man that's cool stuff.  At the risk of outing myself on the interwebz...I live practically on a large lake in the Northeast (between 2 states), 2 miles from a looooooooong sandy beach with good room to rig and fairly shallow water that lets my kiter friends get like 40 days/year while working full time jobs.  Bonus - properties are dirt cheap here compared to much of the rest of the Northeast.  And you can kite on ice/snow in the winter.

Could you give up the racing bit and just kite for fun?  Shirley, it'd be cheaper ;)

[Lulee]

Tim, the others have given you lots of great suggestions on cutting expenses and increasing income.  I'd just like to add one thing --- we work to live, not live to work.  You follow a number of the ideas above and you can happily keep up your hobby, guilt free. 

[Gimesalot]

I agree with other posters that you shouldn't cut your hobby just to save money.  Teaching is a great way to bring in some more money while still having your hobby. 

One thing that wasn't mentioned, can you make some of these expensive pieces of equipment yourself?  Maybe if you can learn to make the kites, you could have a nice bit of income there.  Maybe you can learn how to make the equipment with your girlfriend and you two could start a business where she earns more than $11 an hour... 

[intellectsucks]

Am I understanding your kiteboarding expenses correctly?
Hydrofoil and board-(how often does this need to be replaced?)
Kite costs-$300/mo
Harness/safety/etc-$25/mo (I’m a little unclear about this cost.  Has the $2000 upfront cost already been absorbed, or will it happen again in the future?)
Entry fees-$50/mo
Total monthly expenses of $375.  This seems to be eating up about half of your after tax savings, which also looks like it’s functioning as your emergency fund (home repairs and improvements are absent from your budget which means your real savings rate is likely much lower).  It looks like step 1 is to try to reduce this number by as much as possible.
Are you buying this equipment new or used?  A sport like this seems like it will attract a lot of high income dabblers, who will be obsessed with it for a few months or a year, then lose interest, at which point they will have a lot of high end gear sitting around collecting dust.  They’ll probably look at a super low ball offer to take it off their hands as a favor.
Can you find charities or other organizations that will sponsor your tournament fees in exchange for a pledge drive/portion of tournament winnings? (I have no idea if this is common in sports like this or competitive running.)
Step 2 is to look at ways to monetize your skill.
How good are you at this sport?  If you are entering what looks like about 6-8 tournaments a year, you are likely to be performing at a level where you can generate some income from it.  Obviously tournament winnings are one form of income, but what about sponsorships from local businesses?  Can local bars, restaurants, or other businesses pay to slap their logo on your gear, apparel and websites/blogs/social media?  Spend some time drawing up a sponsorship proposal that includes info about your level of play, the number of tournaments you do, online exposure that you generate, average attendance at tournaments and average level of media exposure to those tournaments.  There’s a reason that you see corporate logos on everything at sporting events and it’s not because the CEO of Mars loves NASCAR so much.
Can you teach this sport?  When you buy new equipment, do you post youtube/blog reviews?  Do you have a blog that talks about all the nitty grittys of the sport and your experiences at tournaments?  Can you strap on a GoPro, sweet talk your brother/girlfriend/best friend/kiteboarding groupie into filming you and then sell the footage as DVDs/digital downloads?  Sell autographs/stickers/any other merch at tournaments?
As others have said, don’t give this up if it is truly your passion, just look for ways to make it as efficient as possible.

[englyn]

DUDE. You get to spend money on what you enjoy. Especially at a >30% savings rate. Quit the guilt, not the kitesurfing.
Run the numbers, how many years is the kiting adding to your working career? eg., if you have to work 2 years longer, but can kite the whole time, is that worth it? It looks to me like it would be. Unless you really hate your job, in which case, get a new job.
Also, your girlfriend needs to get a new job.

[Fresh Bread]

My 2c in case it helps -

My friend is a very good mountain biker and gets  equipment for free from the manufacturers that sponsor her. She has a full time job so this is just for quite infrequent amateur racing.

[UKMustache]

I wonder if he's coming back..

[Slee_stack]

I wonder if he's coming back..

I presume he's out kiting!

I do think costs could be pared a little back on the kite equipment.

I get it.  I love my sports gear.  However, I don't buy anywhere near the best.

Even if one is racing, you still likely don't need the absolute best stuff.  All gear has fast diminishing performance returns at some point.

Lose a second or two because your equipment isn't the absolute best?  Guess that's good incentive to become even more kick ass with your pilot/tech skills.

[intellectsucks]

DUDE. You get to spend money on what you enjoy. Especially at a >30% savings rate. Quit the guilt, not the kitesurfing.
Run the numbers, how many years is the kiting adding to your working career? eg., if you have to work 2 years longer, but can kite the whole time, is that worth it? It looks to me like it would be. Unless you really hate your job, in which case, get a new job.
Also, your girlfriend needs to get a new job.

It's unclear in the original post how that savings rate is calculated, but I think it is safe to assume that a portion of that is counting the betterment savings. If that's the case then   that savings is being used to pay intermittent expenses for kiteboarding and other unexpected stuff (gifts/home repairs/replacement household items/etc). That likely puts his actual savings rate at a decent but not mustachian 10-20%.

[Mossy 757]

Hey guys, thanks for all the replies...seems like most of your confirmed what I already knew:

1) FI isn't worth it if you're sitting around longing to enjoys things about which you're passionate. Asceticism is not my cup of tea.
2) GF isn't contributing to my FI goals because, likely due to innocent ignorance, doesn't share them. This needs to be/will be resolved before (if) we get married. I made a promise to myself as a young man to never marry a financial black hole and she's WELL aware of my stance on her spending/earning/debt situation. I'm just trying to be a positive influence and role model, as well as a compassionate partner for her. Neither of us are under any illusions about our situation, it isn't ideal. For a variety of factors I won't go into on a forum, her progress in this arena has been slow.

I realize my gas/gym/food/phone habits are all putting a crunch on my budget. I work about 20 miles away from home and commute solo each way. The gym can go, food can be cheaper, and phone can be migrated to another carrier...have been working on methods to implement these improvements but like most I think I just struggle with generating inertia to get this stuff done. Hearing an external voice analyze my budget helps confirm what I have suspected about my spending for the last few months. Time to buckle down and stop making excuses for my lack of action.

Am I understanding your kiteboarding expenses correctly?
Hydrofoil and board-(how often does this need to be replaced?)
Kite costs-$300/mo
Harness/safety/etc-$25/mo (I’m a little unclear about this cost.  Has the $2000 upfront cost already been absorbed, or will it happen again in the future?)
Entry fees-$50/mo
Total monthly expenses of $375.  This seems to be eating up about half of your after tax savings, which also looks like it’s functioning as your emergency fund (home repairs and improvements are absent from your budget which means your real savings rate is likely much lower).  It looks like step 1 is to try to reduce this number by as much as possible.

That likely puts his actual savings rate at a decent but not mustachian 10-20%.

Yeah, that's the genesis of this post...I irreparably damaged my hydrofoil at a regatta on the 6th and had to purchase a replacement. Prompted me to come on the forum and write this post for a sanity check because I put the purchase on my credit card; not a proud moment. I have a large commission check from work coming my way in the next 80 days that will cover the cost of the foil, but for the time being that sum will be sitting on my credit card statement there gathering interest until that money comes through. My job has moved me away from a commission earning role, so this is a rare bit of serendipity as large placements like this are more or less in my rear view mirror, professionally. I'm expecting a promotion/raise in the new year, but nowhere near enough to fully offset the costs of kiting.

Are you buying this equipment new or used?  A sport like this seems like it will attract a lot of high income dabblers, who will be obsessed with it for a few months or a year, then lose interest, at which point they will have a lot of high end gear sitting around collecting dust.  They’ll probably look at a super low ball offer to take it off their hands as a favor.

Any gear I can get used, I do, but kites don't do well on the used market due to abuse, and the more novice a rider is, usually the more beat to hell their equipment is when they sell it used.

Can you find charities or other organizations that will sponsor your tournament fees in exchange for a pledge drive/portion of tournament winnings? (I have no idea if this is common in sports like this or competitive running.)

I'm nowhere near the best, but that's a great idea about brand repping/sponsorship. I've only casually investigated this but have some ideas; people are just starting to put sponsor logos on kites, but I asked around after reading that and turns out my buddy in South Carolina got a freebie kite from Sweetwater Brewing for putting their trout logo on his kite...worth investigating further. I have a GoPro and type 90+ words per minute, there's really no excuse for why I haven't started generating income or at least discounts by putting in some legwork to participate in an affiliate program or do video reviews.

I want to thank everyone for the advice, it's quite helpful.

[Mossy 757]

Took some good advice and tightened the belt a bit last night:
-Switched to Google Fi: est. $65/mo savings
-Cancelled LinkedIn: $120/mo savings. I have 30 days remaining on this billing cycle, told my boss I'd only reactivate it if they could pay for it, so we're tracking usage and ROI to verify this is an expense I need. If so, they'll cover it. Little nervous here, but paying for an enterprise tool out of my salary isn't fair and I want to see if I can go without it because it's a dull and frustrating tool to use.
-Changed my auto coverage around a bit to reflect the depreciation on my car (have not updated my policy in 5 years). $20/mo savings. Raised a few deductibles and lowered some collision coverage to a more reasonable level given my use patterns.
-Dumped the gym membership: $30/mo savings

Total monthly savings since midnight last night: $235 ($2820/year)

That + some additional money that's free in my budget right now will constitute the "irrational credit card purchases" payoff fund until such a point as that balance disappears (est. 90 days) and then convert to a "1.2% of purchase price home modification/maintenance" fund, debited automatically to a Betterment home improvement account monthly.

Still doesn't make any room for kiting equipment at current take-home pay, but it gives me some breathing room to know that I'm making a more honest assessment of my current balance sheet so that if/when additional money comes in, some of it can go to kiting guilt free.

[StetsTerhune]

Sounds like you're going down a good path and thinking about all this in the right way. To me the key to everything is to make sure that the dollars you spend have a real return in terms of your happiness. It sounds like kiteboarding is something that brings you real joy, so it's probably a good use of money.

You're not gonna give up kiteboarding, and I don't think anyone here is telling you to, so make sure you're analyzing it in the same way you are the rest of your spending. You weren't gonna give up your cell phone, but there was a product that saved you a bunch of money and still gave you the vast majority of things you valued from your cell phone. Keep thinking about what it is you really value that you're getting from kiteboarding and if you can cut back on the total cost by getting rid of the parts of it you don't really value (e.g. maybe you don't need the regattas, maybe you only need the regattas, maybe hydrofoil is way more expensive but not actually more fun once you got used to it (maybe same for sails), etc.) I don't know enough about it to know what is realistic here, but just keep thinking about it and think outside the box. Just as an example, I now only ski every other winter, since the cheapest way to do it is to get a season pass and get a longer term housing rental. It's much cheaper to ski 70 days in one winter and none the next winter than it would be to ski 35 days a year for two winters.

[Cannot Wait!]

Can  you co-own some equipment with a buddy?

[Mossy 757]

Can  you co-own some equipment with a buddy?

Kinda...but not really. The only other guy in the area where I live is almost exactly my size so we ride the same size kites given the wind conditions at the start of the race. I thought about this though...if I was on an 11m kite and he's on a 15m, we could theoretically only own one of each.  There's just not as much overlap in a co-ownership scenario like there is with a dingy or keel boat.

It's much cheaper to ski 70 days in one winter and none the next winter than it would be to ski 35 days a year for two winters.

Genius. I like that a lot because it feels within my reach, especially since going somewhere 3rd world and windy would be much cheaper on a cost-of-living basis (i.e. La Ventana, Mexico).

[Richardp10]

hi OP,

I see you've cancelled LinkedIn and I wouldn't reactivate it unless work pays.

It sounds like you are moving away from a billing role, wouldn't you be better sticking with this to keep increasing your earnings?

[Mossy 757]

hi OP,

I see you've cancelled LinkedIn and I wouldn't reactivate it unless work pays.

It sounds like you are moving away from a billing role, wouldn't you be better sticking with this to keep increasing your earnings?

We're changing a lot about the structure of the company, and I'm lucky to be positioned for a Director role that is being created to stand up a new team here within the next 30 days. This should come with a nice raise and leadership responsibilities which carry revenue goals, so while I'm not perfectly optimizing my "dollars per hour" rate by coming off commission and into a base salary scenario, it's more predictable and better long-term for my career growth. I think the predictability enables me to invest for retirement better than commission. While on commission, I found myself more likely to hoard cash to weather a dry spell, but cash stores usually under perform inflation, so I was essentially "stalled out" by doing so. So yeah, I used to make more on commission but WAY less of it went to retirement planning, so the increased revenue came at the cost of my sanity and at the opportunity cost of keeping that money in cash instead of a higher-return investment account.

[Mossy 757]

Just sat down with the boss today...20k raise in January, eligible for another 20k in bonuses if the company as a whole hits its goals next year. Even just counting base salary, my FIRE date got 6.5 years closer today!

[Linea_Norway]

Have you tried filming your performance of your hobby? Maybe you can start a nice blog and make toutube films. If you get followers, you might draw in advertisers.

[Daisy]

Very interesting topic!

As a potential future kiteboarder, I will follow your progress with interest.

I live in South Florida, which is horrible for surfing but awesome for kiteboarding. The beach I live by is littered with kite boarders and I look at them longingly knowing I'd like to join them in my soon-to-be FIRE days. I have windsurfed in the past, and always wanted to get into it more, but life, work and other less time consuming hobbies took over. And kite boarding seems to be much more popular these days...easier transport of equipment is my guess.

I've never priced out the costs, so happy to see that discussed here. I doubt I'd ever reach racing status, but maybe there would be a branding market to support a 50 year old female kiter???

There is a kiting school on the beach close to me so they may have some part time work once I get into it.

From my experience in cycling, some people can go way overboard in getting the best equipment, when it may buy you a 2mph benefit, but actually less of a physical health benefit because  your equipment is doing the heavy lifting for you. However I do remember from my windsurfing days that carbon masts are an absolute must especially for females with weaker upper bodies.

Keep us up to date on your kiting adventures and ways to cut costs and/or monetize it.

[Daisy]

Sounds like you're going down a good path and thinking about all this in the right way. To me the key to everything is to make sure that the dollars you spend have a real return in terms of your happiness. It sounds like kiteboarding is something that brings you real joy, so it's probably a good use of money.

You're not gonna give up kiteboarding, and I don't think anyone here is telling you to, so make sure you're analyzing it in the same way you are the rest of your spending. You weren't gonna give up your cell phone, but there was a product that saved you a bunch of money and still gave you the vast majority of things you valued from your cell phone. Keep thinking about what it is you really value that you're getting from kiteboarding and if you can cut back on the total cost by getting rid of the parts of it you don't really value (e.g. maybe you don't need the regattas, maybe you only need the regattas, maybe hydrofoil is way more expensive but not actually more fun once you got used to it (maybe same for sails), etc.) I don't know enough about it to know what is realistic here, but just keep thinking about it and think outside the box. Just as an example, I now only ski every other winter, since the cheapest way to do it is to get a season pass and get a longer term housing rental. It's much cheaper to ski 70 days in one winter and none the next winter than it would be to ski 35 days a year for to winters.

8m a skier as well and this is an excellent idea! When FIRE'D,  I can buy a season pass one year, rent a condo for a winter season, get it out of my system, then spend the next winter doing something else.

[Daisy]

I assume you are familiar with Cabarete, Dominican Republic as a kite surfing mecca. Really great and friendly country and low costs.

[Guesl982374]

Just sat down with the boss today...20k raise in January, eligible for another 20k in bonuses if the company as a whole hits its goals next year. Even just counting base salary, my FIRE date got 6.5 years closer today!

...and that's the beauty of increasing income while keeping expenses flat/slightly declining.