Half a 'Stache

[marielle]

100% plant based for ethical reasons. My palette is not more important than the life of another animal. And to be fair, the best food I've ever had has been since switching over!

It can be healthy if done right, but I'm not pretending that I don't still eat junk food or ice cream.

[redpillgreen]

100% plant based for ethical reasons. My palette is not more important than the life of another animal. And to be fair, the best food I've ever had has been since switching over!

It can be healthy if done right, but I'm not pretending that I don't still eat junk food or ice cream.

Congrats on making the switch, and really happy that it works well for you!

[redpillgreen]

Okay boys and girls, hold on to your socks. Here is my OPINION of which primary sources would be highly relevant to the Internet Retirement Diet Police. Demonstrating the mechanisms that link saturated fat, excess dietary fat to obesity and diabetes.

Also attached another 127 references from Dr Greger's book. (This is just for the chapter on Diabetes. The full list of references is about 80 pages).

Please don't make me do the same thing for cholesterol and heart disease - much easier just to send everyone on over to nutritionfacts.org

Cheers!
RPG


R L Westley, F E May. A twenty-first century cancer epidemic caused by obesity: the involvement of insulin, diabetes, and insulin-like growth factors. Int J Endocrinol. 2013;2013:632461
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23983688

Diabetes Care. Standards of Medical Care in Diabetes—2014. American Diabetes Association.
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/37/Supplement_1/S14.extract

R Taylor. Banting Memorial lecture 2012: reversing the twin cycles of type 2 diabetes. Diabet Med. 2013 Mar;30(3):267-75.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23075228

R Taylor. Pathogenesis of type 2 diabetes: tracing the reverse route from cure to cause. Diabetologia. 2008 Oct;51(10):1781-9.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18726585

A H Lichtenstein, U S Schwab. Relationship of dietary fat to glucose metabolism. Atherosclerosis. 2000 Jun;150(2):227-43.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10856515

E W Kraegen, G J Cooney. Free fatty acids and skeletal muscle insulin resistance. Curr Opin Lipidol. 2008 Jun;19(3):235-41.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18460913


L M Sparks. H Xie, R A Koza, R Mynatt, M W Hulver, G A Bray, S R Smith. A high-fat diet coordinately downregulates genes required for mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation in skeletal muscle. Diabetes. 2005 Jul;54(7):1926-33.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15983191

W J Evans. Oxygen-carrying proteins in meat and risk of diabetes mellitus. JAMA Intern Med. 2013 Jul 22;173(14):1335-6.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23778318

D Estadella, C M da Penha Oller do Nascimento, L M Oyama, E B Ribeiro, A R Damaso, A de Piano. Lipotoxicity: effects of dietary saturated and transfatty acids. Mediators Inflamm. 2013; Epub 2013 Jan 31.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23509418

L M Goff, J D Bell, P W So, A Dornhorst, G S Frost. Veganism and its relationship with insulin resistance and intramyocellular lipid. Eur J Clin Nutr. 2005 Feb;59(2):291-8.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15523486

G Perseghin, P Scifo, F De Cobelli, E Pagliato, A Battezzati, C Arcelloni, A Vanzulli, G Testolin, G Pozza, A Del Maschio, L Luzi. Intramyocellular triglyceride content is a determinant of in vivo insulin resistance in humans: a 1H-13C nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy assessment in offspring of type 2 diabetic parents. Diabetes. 1999 Aug;48(8):1600-6.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10426379

B Vessby, M Uusitupa, K Hermansen, G Riccardi, AA Rivellese, L C Tapsell, C Nalsen, L Berglund, A Louheranta, B M Rasmussen, G D Calvert, A Maffetone, E Pedersen, I B Gustafsson, L H Storlien, KANWU Study. Substituting dietary saturated for monounsaturated fat impairs insulin sensitivity in healthy men and women: The KANWU Study. Diabetologia. 2001 Mar;44(3):312-9.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11317662

J Gojda, J Patkova, M Jacek, J Potockova, J Trnka, P Kraml, M Andel. Higher insulin sensitivity in vegans is not associated with higher mitochondrial density. Eur J Clin Nutr. 2013 Dec;67(12):1310-5.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24149445

C J Nolan, C Z Larter. Lipotoxicity: why do saturated fatty acids cause and monounsaturates protect against it? J Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2009 May;24(5):703-6.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19646010

J Ye. Role of insulin in the pathogenesis of free fatty acid-induced insulin resistance in skeletal muscle. Endocr Metab Immune Disord Drug Targets. 2007 Mar;7(1):65-74.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17346204

E W Kraegen, G J Cooney. Free fatty acids and skeletal muscle insulin resistance. Curr Opin Lipidol. 2008 Jun;19(3):235-41.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18460913

V T Samuel, G I Shulman. Mechanisms for insulin resistance: common threads and missing links. Cell. 2012 Mar 2;148(5):852-71.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22385956

A R Martins, R T Nachbar, R Gorjao, M A Vinolo, W T Festuccia, R H Lambertucci, M F Cury-Boaventura, L R Silveira, R Curi, S M Hirabara. Mechanisms underlying skeletal muscle insulin resistance induced by fatty acids: importance of the mitochondrial function. Lipids Health Dis. 2012 Feb 23;11:30.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22360800

H Karlic, D Schuster, F Varga, G Klindert, A Lapin, A Haslberger, M Handschur. Vegetarian diet affects genes of oxidative metabolism and collagen synthesis. Ann Nutr Metab. 2008;53(1):29-32.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18772587


 K L Spalding, E Arner, P O Westermark, S Bernard, B A Bucholz, O Bergmann, L Blomgvist, J Hoffstedt, E Naslund, T Britton, H Concha, M Hassan, M Ryden, J Frisen, P Arner. Dynamics of fat cell turnover in humans. Nature. 2008 Jun 5;453(7196):783-7.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18454136

J S Pankow, B B Duncan, M I Schmidt, C M Ballantyne, D J Couper, R C Hoogeveen, S H Golden: Athersclerosis Risk in Communities Study. Fasting plasma free fatty acids and risk of type 2 diabetes: the atherosclerosis risk in communities study. Diabetes Care. 2004 Jan;27(1):77-82.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14693970

O P Bachmann, D B Dahl K Brechtel, J Machann, M Happ, T Maier, M Loviscach, M Stumvoll, C D Claussen, F Schick, H U Haring, S Jacob. Effects of intravenous and dietary lipid challenge on intramyocellular lipid content and the relation with insulin sensitivity in humans. Diabetes. 2001 Nov;50(11):2579-84.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11679437

S Hocking, D Samocha-Bonet, K L Milner, J R Greenfield, D J Chisholm. Adiposity and Insulin Resistance in Humans: The Role of the Different Tissue and Cellular Lipid Depots. Endocr Rev. 2013 Aug;34(4):463-500.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23550081

J Ye. Role of insulin in the pathogenesis of free fatty acid-induced insulin resistance in skeletal muscle. Endocr Metab Immune Disord Drug Targets. 2007 Mar;7(1):65-74.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17346204

E W Kraegen, G J Cooney. Free fatty acids and skeletal muscle insulin resistance. Curr Opin Lipidol. 2008 Jun;19(3):235-41.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18460913

M Roden. How free fatty acids inhibit glucose utilization in human skeletal muscle. News Physiol Sci. 2004 Jun;19:92-6.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15143200


H P Himsworth. The dietetic factor determining the glucose tolerance and senility to insulin of healthy men. Clinical Science 2, 67-94.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1394223/

H P Himsworth, E M Marshall. The diet of diabetics prior to the onset of the disease. Clinical Science 2, 95-115, 1935. NA.
https://www.cabdirect.org/cabdirect/abstract/19351404498

M Roden, T B Price, G Perseghin, K F Petersen, D L Rothman, G W Cline, G I Shulman. Mechanism of free fatty acid-induced insulin resistance in humans. J Clin Invest. Jun 15, 1996; 97(12): 2859–2865.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC507380/

S Lee, C Boesch, J L Kuk, S Arsianian. Effects of an overnight intravenous lipid infusion on intramyocellular lipid content and insulin sensitivity in African-American versus Caucasian adolescents. Metabolism. 2013 Mar;62(3):417-23.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23122836

M Roden, K Krssak, H Stingl, S Gruber, A Hofer, C Furnsinn, E Moser, W Waldhausl. Rapid impairment of skeletal muscle glucose transport/phosphorylation by free fatty acids in humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10334314

M Krssak, K Falk Petersen, A Dresner, L Dipetro, S M Vogel, D L Rothman, M Roden, G I Shulman. Intramyocellular lipid concentrations are correlated with insulin sensitivity in humans: a 1H NMR spectroscopy study. Diabetologia. 1999 Jan;42(1):113-6.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10027589

J Shirley Sweeney. DIETARY FACTORS THAT INFLUENCE THE DEXTROSE TOLERANCE TEST A PRELIMINARY STUDY. JAMA Int Med, Dec, 1927, Vol 40, No. 6.
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=535594

E W Kraegen, G J Cooney. Free fatty acids and skeletal muscle insulin resistance. Curr Opin Lipidol. 2008 Jun;19(3):235-41.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18460913

A T Santomauro, G Boden, M E Silva, D M Rocha, FR F Santos, M J Ursich, P G Strassmann, B L Wajchenberg. Overnight lowering of free fatty acids with Acipimox improves insulin resistance and glucose tolerance in obese diabetic and nondiabetic subjects. Diabetes. 1999 Sep;48(9):1836-41.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/0010480616

W J Evans. Oxygen-carrying proteins in meat and risk of diabetes mellitus. JAMA Intern Med. 2013 Jul 22;173(14):1335-6. doi: 10.1001/jamainternmed.2013.7399.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23778318

M Cnop. Fatty acids and glucolipotoxicity in the pathogenesis of Type 2 diabetes. Biochem Soc Trans. 2008 Jun;36(Pt 3):348-52. doi: 10.1042/BST0360348.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18481955

R Taylor. Banting Memorial lecture 2012: reversing the twin cycles of type 2 diabetes. Diabet Med. 2013 Mar;30(3):267-75. doi: 10.1111/dme.12039.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23075228

A K Leamy, R A Egnatchik, J D Young. Molecular mechanisms and the role of saturated fatty acids in the progression of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. Prog Lipid Res. 2013 Jan;52(1):165-74. doi: 10.1016/j.plipres.2012.10.004.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23178552

D Estadella, C M da Penha Oller do Nascimento, L M Oyama, E B Ribeiro, A R Dâmaso, A de Piano. Lipotoxicity: effects of dietary saturated and transfatty acids. Mediators Inflamm. 2013;2013:137579. doi: 10.1155/2013/137579.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23509418

R Taylor. Pathogenesis of type 2 diabetes: tracing the reverse route from cure to cause. Diabetologia. 2008 Oct;51(10):1781-9. doi: 10.1007/s00125-008-1116-7.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18726585

D A Cunha, M Igoillo-Esteve, E N Gurzov, C M Germano, N Naamane, I Marhfour, M Fukaya, J M Vanderwinden, C Gysemans, C Mathieu, L Marselli, P Marchetti, H P Harding, D Ron, D L Eizirik, M Cnop. Death protein 5 and p53-upregulated modulator of apoptosis mediate the endoplasmic reticulum stress-mitochondrial dialog triggering lipotoxic rodent and human β-cell apoptosis. Diabetes. 2012 Nov;61(11):2763-75. doi: 10.2337/db12-0123.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22773666

G Musso, R Gambino, F De Michieli, M Cassader, M Rizzetto, M Durazzo, E Fagà, B Silli, G Pagano. Dietary habits and their relations to insulin resistance and postprandial lipemia in nonalcoholic steatohepatitis. Hepatology. 2003 Apr;37(4):909-16.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12668986

J Cao, X X Feng, L Yao, B Ning, Z X Yang, D L Fang, W Shen. Saturated free fatty acid sodium palmitate-induced lipoapoptosis by targeting glycogen synthase kinase-3β activation in human liver cells. Dig Dis Sci. 2014 Feb;59(2):346-57. doi: 10.1007/s10620-013-2896-2.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24132507

C Xiao, A Giacca, A Carpentier, G F Lewis. Differential effects of monounsaturated, polyunsaturated and saturated fat ingestion on glucose-stimulated insulin secretion, sensitivity and clearance in overweight and obese, non-diabetic humans. Diabetologia. 2006 Jun;49(6):1371-9.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16596361

M Cnop, S J Hughes, M Igoillo-Esteve, M B Hoppa, F Sayyed, L van de Laar, J H Gunter, E J de Koning, G V Walls, D W Gray, P R Johnson, B C Hansen, J F Morris, M Pipeleers-Marichal, I Cnop, A Clark. The long lifespan and low turnover of human islet beta cells estimated by mathematical modelling of lipofuscin accumulation. Diabetologia. 2010 Feb;53(2):321-30. doi: 10.1007/s00125-009-1562-x.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19855953

M Ricchi, M R Odoardi, L Carulli, C Anzivino, S Ballestri, A Pinetti, L I Fantoni, F Marra, M Bertolotti, S Banni, A Lonardo, N Carulli, P Loria. Differential effect of oleic and palmitic acid on lipid accumulation and apoptosis in cultured hepatocytes. J Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2009 May;24(5):830-40. doi: 10.1111/j.1440-1746.2008.05733.x.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19207680

C J Nolan, C Z Larter. Lipotoxicity: why do saturated fatty acids cause and monounsaturates protect against it? J Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2009 May;24(5):703-6. doi: 10.1111/j.1440-1746.2009.05823.x.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19646010

D R Parker, S T Weiss, R Troisi, P A Cassano, P S Vokonas, L Landsberg. Relationship of dietary saturated fatty acids and body habitus to serum insulin concentrations: the Normative Aging Study. Am J Clin Nutr. 1993 Aug;58(2):129-36.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8338037

D J Maron, J M Fair, W L Haskell. Saturated fat intake and insulin resistance in men with coronary artery disease. The Stanford Coronary Risk Intervention Project Investigators and Staff. Circulation. 1991 Nov;84(5):2020-7.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1934376

L Wang, A R Folsom, Z J Zheng, J S Pankow, J H Eckfeldt, ARIC Study Investigators. Plasma fatty acid composition and incidence of diabetes in middle-aged adults: the Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities (ARIC) Study. Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Jul;78(1):91-8.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12816776

[redpillgreen]

More cowbell...

[redpillgreen]

After lots of reading, research, first/second/third hand evidence, etc. I've concluded that 85%+ of ones longevity is due to genetics. There are some people that can eat McD's every day and smoke a pack a day and live to see 100 even if obese. Where there are many that eat "healthy", exercise, etc and die before they turn 60 with normal BMIs.

Just like the saying goes, moderation is key. My wife is a vegetarian but does eat some animal products like eggs occasionally. I recently lost around 50 lbs by for the most part moderating my diet off of almost all carbohydrates and turning more to eating veggies as sides (for example instead of french fries I'll have steamed green beans dipped in ketchup) and exercising. I feel better all around but I think that's because I now way 50 lbs less. I still eat meat but keep it to the lean stuff - turkey, chicken, fish, and maybe 3x a week at most. I weigh out what I eat and typically eat a 3-4 oz slab of chicken on my burgers, grilled on the George Foreman.

Just use common sense. Eat well so you feel better and can live a fuller life devoid of issues due to weight (bad knees, diabetes, etc). Don't do it to live longer because odds are it won't be a factor.
   
IMO.

The very exciting thing about the field of epigenetics is that, our genes are not necessarily our destiny. Gene expression can be switched on and off, and we do have significant power over outcomes even with certain genetic predispositions. One of the main ways to control gene expression is - you guessed it - our diet.

The mainstream media trumpeting the discovery of this obesity gene or that cancer gene is quite harmful IMO because it

• Rarely mentions the prevalence of any specific genetic discovery in the population. i.e. something that only 1% of people have is hardly relevant to the 70% of our population that is overweight or obese
• It never mentions anything about the fact that we have power to control disease outcomes even with genetic predispositions (see above)
• It gives people good news about their bad habits. i.e. "Oh I probably just have bad genes" is much easier than "Oh shit I guess I shouldn't have that second tripple cheeseburger and maybe do some exercise too"

And common sense is unfortunately altogether too uncommon. Commons sense also says we should be maxing out our home mortgage, credit cards, and car loans ;)

Vegetarians and paleo people are generally healthier for the same reason, they avoid the processed crap that invades most of the American diet.

I keep thinking WFPB diet was the WFP diet, which is Weston F Price - a major proponent of high fat animal based eating. I tend to subscribe to his theory much more. I was vegetarian for a few years, it worked for me. I have discovered as I age that sugar and starch disagree with me much more than fat and meat.

IMO alot of the research trying to show health benefits of plant-based diets is tainted by using "vegetarians" and "vegans". Lacto-ovo vegetarians can have just as high fat consumption from eggs and dairy. And self-described vegans are likely to be on the diet for moral reasons without much knowledge of nutrition aka "junk food" vegans.

My pet theory is that - since most nutrition study participants would be on some sort of a Westernized diet, alot of our dietary research needs to be thrown out the window, and redone after re-baselining to a healthy diet. Do we really need massive amounts of extra omega-3s or antioxidants, if we take away the oxidative stress caused by consumption of animal products?

If "carbs" put you at the risk of being a diebetic, then you obviously have medical issues. Complex carbohydrates in reasonable amounts have little to no negative impacts on your blood sugar and insulin levels. They create slow and steady rises and insulin releases.

Sugar and highly processed foods as such put people at risk for diabetes. The sudden blood sugar spike and need for insulin release, causes all sorts of issue over time.

If someone wants to say that unsweetened oatmeal or baby red potatoes put the general public at risk for diabetes, then they don't understand nutrition or the way the body works.

Granted - if you eat like garbage and full of crap for 20-30 years, you may have already wrecked your bodies endocrine system enough that those things could increase diabetes risks. Granted, it's not the potatoes that did that, it's the poor choices earlier in life, or a predisposed medical condition.

Spot on!

The good news is that dietary intervention can reverse type2 diabetes, in some cases even after many years of the condition. Obviously this needs to be done under medical supervision. And yes, carbs are tricky for people who are already diabetic - hence the medical supervision.

What really blows my mind is this recent study showing possible reversal of type 1 diabetes - a four-day fasting diet seemed to regenerate pancreas cells and restore insulin production. Very early days, but very exciting for the future!

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/a-fasting-diet-may-trigger-regeneration-of-a-diabetic-pancreas/

The moderator wanted people to stop being jerks.

+1.

I'm done feeding the trolls, but if anyone wants to have a civil discussion I'll be over here on the fun side of the island.

[Iplawyer]

OK, no potatoes. Don't know where I got that from.
Here is a link to the TED talk:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8

Paleolithic hominids were hunter-gatherers who lived until the age of 30 to 40. You'll excuse me if I don't base my medical and dietary choices on their "expertise".

Except for the age part I agree.

Oh, and they also exercised a hell of a lot more than we all did - if you really want to get into those details.

Another myth: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/opinion/sunday/debunking-the-hunter-gatherer-workout.html

And by the way, I CAN tear the meat off a bone with my canines. Just watch me eat a T-bone rare :p

You got video?

People (really just North Americans) get upset when they think you are trying to take their meat away. But as a mustachian it's important to examine how you live your life and let go of things that don't bring value to your life. I believe that eating meat not only doesn't bring value but actively harms humans and the environment. Because so many people have challenged my assumptions on this forum and helped me grow as a person, I hope I can do the same for others.

Perhaps - but each person's value is their value not yours.  And you make all kinds of statements as if they are facts here.  I cannot eat carbs or I am at risk to be diabetic.  So your statement that there is nothing wrong with carbs is fine for you - but not for all.

If "carbs" put you at the risk of being a diebetic, then you obviously have medical issues. Complex carbohydrates in reasonable amounts have little to no negative impacts on your blood sugar and insulin levels. They create slow and steady rises and insulin releases.

Sugar and highly processed foods as such put people at risk for diabetes. The sudden blood sugar spike and need for insulin release, causes all sorts of issue over time.

If someone wants to say that unsweetened oatmeal or baby red potatoes put the general public at risk for diabetes, then they don't understand nutrition or the way the body works.

Granted - if you eat like garbage and full of crap for 20-30 years, you may have already wrecked your bodies endocrine system enough that those things could increase diabetes risks. Granted, it's not the potatoes that did that, it's the poor choices earlier in life, or a predisposed medical condition.

You are plain wrong and clearly don't understand how the human body works and you should couch your OPINION as your OPINION not as a fact.  Period.  As the moderator pointed out earlier - you should not couch opinion as fact in this type of conversation.  You are not a doctor or trained in endocrinology.  Therefore you don't have a clue what you are talking about.  And please don't insinuate I have medical issues or screwed up in past years by eating junk.

The moderator wanted people to stop being jerks.

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Agreed - so they should stop saying things like those that must eat high fat diets have medical conditions or ate like garbage for 20 or 30 years. 

[TravelJunkyQC]

What a fantastic roller-coaster of emotion that I've just lived through!

What an adventure.

[mozar]

I'm wondering if TravelJunkyQC has read the articles they're posting. The one about performance  (no one here is claiming that not eating meat improves muscle performance ) has many limitations such as only looking at older men and the vegetarian diets were maintained for 12 weeks at most.
The first link about whether infants can be vegetarian says that its ok, but the study authors suggest supplementing the diet with fat, fatty fish, and dairy. Which I personally disagree with since I'm lactose intolerant. But the study is not saying that young children must be omnivores.
The point about humans starting to eat meat and that causing changes and reducing chewing or whatever. I was only saying that humans didn't start out eating meat, and those articles prove my point.
I'm open to the idea that eating lean birds (the op pointed out that beef is considered by the WHO to be a likely carcinogen) and fatty fish is neutral at best. Probably depends a lot on where you're people are from. Even though I don't eat poultry or,beef or fish, my beef (pun intended ) is with the meat industrial complex. Not with people who hunt/fish buy meat from a local farm. To the silent readers of this thread, my opinion is that if you eat a lot of meat, try reducing it and see how you feel.
One thing I've learned from this forum is that you can post all the studies you want, but people will read the facts differently based on their world views. But saying someone provides junk articles is definitely a jerk move.

To the people who say that carbs will cause them to be diabetic, do you have more information? I'm genuinly curious if you have articles or videos, primary, secondary, I don't care. I haven't heard of carbs (whole potatoes, corn, rice?) causing diabetes.

[Iplawyer]

More people die when in the presence and under the care of doctors because more people go to doctors when they are sick.

Correlation does not imply causation.

+1

-1

Please see above

Every 3 weeks or so we pull a whole chicken out of our freezer and cook it. (that we buy from a local farmer who let's the chickens run around like a chicken should)
Every 3 weeks or so we buy a pound of fish from the store and make a meal out of it. 
Every 3 weeks or so we have meat in some random other way. 


We buy milk for the kids, and we all eat other dairy products.

Other that that, it's all fruits/veggies/grains/etc. 

I'm happy with our balance.

Happy the balance works for you! I would suggest reading more on the potential concerns with dairy products though. The potential link to type1 diabetes is quite scary (don't take dairy while on antibiotics...)

I thought the bit about doctors was tongue in cheek, but who knows. I saw a great ted talk about what the paleothic people  (think paleo diet) actually ate. It turns out that scientists assumed that paleolithic people ate a lot of meat because there were a lot of bones in the caves. But after examining the teeth of cave people scientists saw that they rarely ate meat, it's just that bones last longer in the fossil record.
What they ate depended on where they lived.
North and South Americans ate a corn based diet.
Europeans ate a barley and potato based diet
Asian people a rice based diet etc.

And just because we can eat meat doesn't mean we should. Despite popular belief the ted talk went on to say that human bodies aren't adapted to eating meat. Our intestines are longer than carnivores in order extract more nutrients from vegetables,  and our teeth are for grinding vegetables, we don't have long canines for tearing meat off the bone. Whenever I hear someone say that humans adapted to eating meat I want to ask them if they can tear raw meat off a bone with their teeth which would be very impressive.

I agree with a previous poster that we don't have to stop eating meat entirely. But a few times a year rather than several times a day would go a long way towards cleaning up the environment  (animal waste and methane) and improving our health.

And personally I have a big problem with dairy milk. Keeping a cow pregnant year round so she can provide milk seems unethical to me.

99% agree! Significantly reducing intake does give you most of the benefits.

Not to mention the pesticides in milk from spraying down cows with it...

I do want to keep it objective and not get too much into the ethics thing. But since you brought it up, what about the ethics of killing an animal for its meat. Or baby chicks being ground alive because they aren't useful? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkphooryVyQ

If nothing else, someone who chooses to eat meat should spend a day at a slaughterhouse, then see how they feel about the moral choice.

https://chriskresser.com/rest-in-peace-china-study/

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/china-study-author-colin-campbell-slaps-down-critic-denise-minger.html

There are just as many resources saying the Paleo diet is a sustainable and healthy diet as you can point to about your opinion that a vegetarian diet is better.  But yours is just an opinion and you are apparently passionate about it.  But it is still an opinion and it offends me that you proclaim it to be absolutely the truth.  The US government thrust low fat - high carb diets on us as "healthy" for years - and now it turns out that is not the case.   We have been eating plants and animals since the beginning of time.  It is healthy to continue doing so.  I'm not going to put 100 references below this.  Why?  Because you can Google it yourself.

Just as many does not mean just as credible. This is the false balance that gives us climate change deniers, a 50 year delay on admitting that cigarettes cause lung cancer, and other such niceties. I recommend the book/movie "Merchants of Doubt"

My rough summary on this is:
- Plant based backers: tend to be primary sources with decades of experience in research, or clinical practice.
- Paleo backers: tend to not be doing any active research in the field, and primarily interested in selling their books.

Oh, and they also exercised a hell of a lot more than we all did - if you really want to get into those details.

And by the way, I CAN tear the meat off a bone with my canines. Just watch me eat a T-bone rare :p

Agree that activity level plays a role in overall health. Although improved diet seems to have about 2x the health power compared to more exercise - at least for cancer suppression.

Please post a video of yourself chewing the leg off of a live cow. Not a steak that was helpfully sliced off for you with some nice modern steel. ;)

We just watched Forks Over Knives and I thought about starting a thread about it. 

We're not vegetarian/vegan by any means but we are eating more meatless meals.  The movie just motivated us even more.  Better for health, better for environment, better for wallet.

Cool! Best of luck in your journey. The rabbit hole goes quite deep, and credible sources are few and far between.

I highly recommend the sequel to Forks over Knives called PlantPure Nation. There's also another film in the same vein from 2016 called "Food Choices"

Paleolithic hominids were hunter-gatherers who lived until the age of 30 to 40. You'll excuse me if I don't base my medical and dietary choices on their "expertise".

That would be a valid argument if there hadn't been any advances in medicine in the past 10,000 years.

That was actually part of my argument - science, medicine, and health, have all greatly advanced in the past 10,000 years. Our understanding of basic biology has come a long way. And it's partially why I don't understand why we're so hell-bent on recreating what we believe to be an ancient diet, when there's been so much advancement since then.

On this, highly recommend T Colin Campbell's other book called "Whole". It will certainly make you think twice about modern medicine when it comes to chronic or lifestyle related conditions.

Yup yup. Vegan for 18 years, since way before it was cool. Never had any issues, always loved the food and how it makes me feel. Apparently it saves me money, but I wouldn't know, since I was vegan way before I started grocery shopping. Eating dead bodies and bodily fluids just stopped appealing to me once I realized how those things worked as a pre-teen, and I never went back.

Yup yup! It's very interesting to think about the collective mental block that we have created - not ever thinking twice about the slowly decaying chunk of dead flesh in the fridge. Contrast with "live" fruits and veggies.

Eating life > eating death.

And by the way, I CAN tear the meat off a bone with my canines. Just watch me eat a T-bone rare :p

You got video?

People (really just North Americans) get upset when they think you are trying to take their meat away. But as a mustachian it's important to examine how you live your life and let go of things that don't bring value to your life. I believe that eating meat not only doesn't bring value but actively harms humans and the environment. Because so many people have challenged my assumptions on this forum and helped me grow as a person, I hope I can do the same for others.

Yes yes a million times this! The only reason I got up on the soapbox on this particular forum, is this seems like the place where people capable of challenging their assumptions would be gathered. I guess we'll test that theory based on how badly I get beat up in this thread ;)

3. And in terms of meat eating, our physiology and biological evolution supports the theory that not only CAN we eat meat, but we may not even have become human in our present form had we not incorporated it into the diet. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v531/n7595/full/nature16990.html

I'm sorry, I didn't watch the youtube video, and I don't have access to the NY Times article (I already busted my max number of free articles for this month).

But in general, peer-reviewed scientific studies or it didn't happen :p

P.S. I don't want to get into more of an argument on this fantastic forum. Can we just agree to disagree - and what happens among consenting, knowledgable adults, be it a choice in diet, or other, is fine by me.

Any paper that measures "5% decrease in the number of chews per year" is all right in my book! LOL But going to the previous point above - anatomically capable doesn't equate to optimal or ideal. We are also anatomically capable of snorting cocaine or jumping off cliffs, but to the best of my knowledge both of those are bad ideas.

No no! Please keep the argument going. I think this is the perfect place and really happy to see >1500 views on this thread already. I'll leave you with a quote from Aristotle, who would have surely hung out on the MMM forum if he lived in our time:

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

mozar - you can see from the bolded, underlined, italicized above the redpillgreen equated Paleo literature and those of us that believe it to climate change deniers, etc.  That is truly jerkish behavior after listing a bunch of movies and similar to support his so called facts he was giving as opinion.

Here is what he said again:

"Just as many does not mean just as credible. This is the false balance that gives us climate change deniers, a 50 year delay on admitting that cigarettes cause lung cancer, and other such niceties. I recommend the book/movie "Merchants of Doubt"

My rough summary on this is:
- Plant based backers: tend to be primary sources with decades of experience in research, or clinical practice.
- Paleo backers: tend to not be doing any active research in the field, and primarily interested in selling their books."

I'm fine with somebody being passionate about a subject.  But when their response is to indicate that those of us who disagree fall into the category of "climate change deniers" then I am going to respond and call him on it. 

Again - I really don't care if you eat vegan, vegetarian, or whatever - or that you are passionate about it.  But you have to be respectful of others who disagree with you.  This crossed the line and redpillgreen has not even apologized for crossing that line.

[fuzzy math]

...

[redpillgreen]

...

+1. Air popped, no butter.

[swick]

Mod Note: This has gone far enough.