Author Topic: Google Wireless Service  (Read 8570 times)

Can't Wait

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 136
Google Wireless Service
« on: March 07, 2015, 08:30:10 AM »

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28299
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2015, 08:38:43 AM »
I'm in favor of competition, so yes.

Their Google Fiber rollout certainly shook things up in those cities (and got the ISPs to offer competing services - only in those areas, unfortunately).

I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

Can't Wait

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 136
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2015, 03:00:33 PM »
It looks like Google is calling their wireless service "Project Fi"

It seems to function like Republic Wireless by automatically switching between network and wifi connections for data and voice calls.

I'm not sure if I like the rate plan since there is no option for having multiple lines on one account. According to their FAQ's, each user must have their own account.

$20 for unlimited talk and text, then $10 per gb with a credit back for any unused data. So 2 lines with 1 gb of data each will cost $60+ taxes. So, its not any cheaper than say Ting, and you can only use the Nexus 6 phone with this service.

http://gizmodo.com/project-fi-googles-plan-to-fix-your-wireless-service-i-1699499531


Paul der Krake

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5897
  • Age: 17
  • Location: UTC-10:00
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2015, 03:13:19 PM »
The two networks offered are Sprint and T-Mobile. Meh.
You can't get out of the $20 base price for unlimited talk/text. Double meh.
Taxes not included. What is this, carmax?

Only works on Nexus 6 for now, it's not clear what it will take to BYOD, if ever.
The only thing going for them is the price of 4G data, and tethering, if you're into that sort of thing.

Pass.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 03:15:07 PM by Paul der Krake »

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28299
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2015, 03:59:54 PM »
Yeah, I was pretty disappointed with the details revealed today, too.

Too bad.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

Daley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5425
  • Location: Cow country. Moo.
  • Where there's a will...
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2015, 05:14:07 PM »
There's really absolutely nothing groundbreaking technologically, even with "merging" the T-Mobile and Sprint networks. Looking at the maps, it's clear that it's primarily a T-Mobile network, with a few regional GSM network agreements (Union, Vaero, but nobody in Montana), and the agreements are probably data-first instead of voice-first, which is why their maps don't match T-Mobile Prepaid's entirely (a few GSM partner roaming holes).

As for the Sprint involvement, that appears to be limited to Sprint's 4G LTE network only given the darker green patterns on the map (the Great Lakes area is the giveaway), so there's not even Sprint CDMA coverage on this which really trivializes the network merging. Mobile network involvement is 100% GSM/SIM card based, plus Google's creepy global database of over 1 million "trusted" open WiFi hotspots. Vertical handover between GSM and WiFi should be clean (and far superior to Republic's hacky solution), given this functionality was actually built into the standard years ago with 3GPP UMA/GAN (again, T-Mobile has been using this for years).

I will admit, FI is unique in that it's the first American MVNO to partner with the the mobile carriers it has for coverage, roaming and billing, and the first American MVNO I'm aware of that's pushing out proper 3GPP UMA/GAN support to their end users to integrate WiFi networks into the mobile phone infrastructure. From that standpoint, I hope it'll open up the GSM MVNO market a bit more for cheaper roaming agreements and the trickling down of greater GAN support with GSM MVNOs in smartphones. That said, the pricing is still unremarkable... but it's at least realistic for what they're providing (unlike certain other wannabe "renegade" MVNOs) and I can pretty well guarantee that Google's implementation is actually going to work (again, unlike certain other wannabe "renegade" MVNOs *cough-Republic-cough*). Unlike the empty claims of certain other MVNOs, this does actually have the potential to change the mobile landscape a bit.

It also changes nothing on my recommendations. There's still cheaper and better options, and using a home VoIP line is still chief amongst it. Paying for mobile service increases the cost of communications for the convenience of moving around, and though Republic's offerings are absurd (especially in relation to Google's new offering), they're not wrong in the understanding that most people use their cellphones in places where there's really no need for mobile service.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 05:53:19 PM by I.P. Daley »

Random Internet Stranger

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Age: 54
  • Location: PNW
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2015, 10:18:08 AM »
IF the pricing mode takes off, wouldn't the other major suppliers of cell-tech end up jumping on the bandwagon?

Seems to me that if Google gets this rolling, and its a popular thing, other competitors are going to end up following suit. I would love to see the pay what you use deal on our lines, tbh.

Can't Wait

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 136
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2015, 11:05:12 AM »
IF the pricing mode takes off, wouldn't the other major suppliers of cell-tech end up jumping on the bandwagon?

Seems to me that if Google gets this rolling, and its a popular thing, other competitors are going to end up following suit. I would love to see the pay what you use deal on our lines, tbh.

I'm not really a fan of their pricing. For what we'd use, it would be $10-11 cheaper per month to go with Ting and I wouldn't have to purchase a $650 behemoth of a phone.

I'm pretty disappointed with it to be honest. I'd be more interested if they had an option to add a line to your account for say $5 or something, but right now, they are forcing each line to be on separate $20 base plans. Lame.

jmusic

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 465
  • Location: Somewhere...
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2015, 01:42:22 PM »
IF the pricing mode takes off, wouldn't the other major suppliers of cell-tech end up jumping on the bandwagon?

Seems to me that if Google gets this rolling, and its a popular thing, other competitors are going to end up following suit. I would love to see the pay what you use deal on our lines, tbh.

I'm not really a fan of their pricing. For what we'd use, it would be $10-11 cheaper per month to go with Ting and I wouldn't have to purchase a $650 behemoth of a phone.

I'm pretty disappointed with it to be honest. I'd be more interested if they had an option to add a line to your account for say $5 or something, but right now, they are forcing each line to be on separate $20 base plans. Lame.

+1 on the pricing being "meh" and +++ on the gargantuan Nexus 6. 

I've been on the fence about replacing my Ting Galaxy Nexus (with Hangouts calling at home) with a Nexus 5, but then it got discontinued.  The 6 is WAYY too big.  Still trucking along with the old phone though it's quite infuriatingly slow these days. 

Also, after reading IP Daley's stuff I've been kicking around the idea of getting a Nokia E63 and the P'tel $20/mo plan. 

Daley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5425
  • Location: Cow country. Moo.
  • Where there's a will...
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2015, 03:06:15 PM »
In regards to google FI I wish that $20 base plan included 1 GB and then the extra $10 got you to 2GB...  That would make a big difference

Google isn't stupid, and they're not going to deliberately lose money on this thing. Their pricing is realistic and within the expected norms of MVNO wholesale pricing with T-Mobile and Sprint. The only way to lower the cost is to eliminate the word "unlimited" from the talk and text end. It's at least more honest than using unrealistic promises and pricing that exploit people's tendency to be on WiFi anyway, paired with a punitive terms of service agreement for anyone who actually uses their mobile service away from a hotspot.

I mean just look at all the changes T mobile has caused with their latest initiatives ... Even though their network stinks for most people who aren't in major cities

What changes? There have been no actual serious, industry shaking changes inspired by this company. They're all sales gimmicks and slick marketing that abuses the English language and basic mathematics.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 03:10:17 PM by I.P. Daley »

Daley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5425
  • Location: Cow country. Moo.
  • Where there's a will...
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2015, 05:27:47 PM »
ATT and Verizon have both made more data available for cheaper- granted it isn't "mustachian" but it is certainly better than it was....  And I believe this is a direct response to what T-mobile is doing.... and companies like Republic.  Things like data rollover, less contracts, free music streaming, etc.

1) Data rate prices supposedly dropping with the major carriers are not a direct consequence of T-Mobile, it's a direct result of hitting market saturation and an unsustainable price point. The major carriers will always charge just a fraction more than what the market will bear. And yet, despite this "price drop", the going rate is still effectively an overpriced $10/GB. There may be "more data" available, yet ironically, the lowest cost available packages per line just keeps going up every year.

2) Republic doesn't actually have the presence or influence on the industry you think or they claim it does. They're a lamprey on a blue whale. If anything, the combined impact of all the MVNOs you're trashing me for promoting have done more to shake the industry than Republic ever could (and only in their combined efforts), and they're still nothing more than relatively small parasitic fish in a big pond... excuse Consumer Cellular.

3) Less contracts? Literally nothing has changed but verbiage. A two year contract locking you into a $50+ postpaid plan to pay off a phone that's carrier locked by any other name...
...is called JUMP!

4) ZOMG UNLIMITED* MUSIC STREAMING! We're talking about a company who's in-house data prices are so low that their prepaid division has offered a 100 minute, unlimited text, 5GB unthrottled data package for $30/month for years now, and their postpaid calling plans start at $50/month with only 1GB of unthrottled data and the free music streaming has a pile of exceptions, especially in regard to roaming. The average heavy smartphone user is still only around 1.5GB of data per month in this country, most of which is streaming media. That's a real generous offer they're giving there, and boy howdy, you can't go anywhere now without seeing free streaming music offers from AT&T, Sprint and Verizon these days.

All I am saying is that while this may not be a good deal, it is definitely a good thing for the consumer to have more options and flexibility in networks and pricing.

I don't disagree with this statement, but the selection and diversity you're citing is more an illusion and marketing BS than reality. The mobile industry is a shell game built on selling us stuff we don't actually need, and I'm sorry that apparently my pointing this out so deeply offends your sensibilities.

Paul der Krake

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5897
  • Age: 17
  • Location: UTC-10:00
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2015, 06:46:35 PM »
Republic doesn't actually have the presence or influence on the industry you think or they claim it does. They're a lamprey on a blue whale. If anything, the combined impact of all the MVNOs you're trashing me for promoting have done more to shake the industry than Republic ever could (and only in their combined efforts), and they're still nothing more than relatively small parasitic fish in a big pond... excuse Consumer Cellular.
I would love to get a comprehensive industry report about this. Researching any of the private companies in the wireless space is like hitting a wall, they don't disclose anything.

RW is hot potatoes in our personal finance internet huddles, but they are from my area (Raleigh, NC) and I have yet to meet anyone who has them. Similarly, I'm sure some of the MVNOs are doing really well in some low income population pools (judging from by own little excursions in the convenience stores of the less savory parts of town), but really it's just guesswork.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 06:49:30 PM by Paul der Krake »

gimp

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2344
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2015, 07:10:01 PM »
If only they would sell the same plan, except without talk and text. (Just route those over data.) Flat $10/gb.

cacaoheart

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 147
  • Location: Raleigh, NC
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2015, 07:34:11 PM »
I could see google Fi being good for people that travel outside the US regularly and want cheap data access while traveling. If I understand correctly, data over wifi is still billed as data, unlike republic wireless that lets me have a $12 (including tax) plan that makes use of wifi for free data. I'm happy to see more cell options appearing, even if Fi doesn't seem to be the best one for me at the moment.

Living in Raleigh, I'm looking forward to Google Fiber showing up maybe sometime this summer. Combined with fiber I could see them setting up wifi networks throughout a city for cellular data.

Daley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5425
  • Location: Cow country. Moo.
  • Where there's a will...
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2015, 07:49:47 PM »
I would love to get a comprehensive industry report about this. Researching any of the private companies in the wireless space is like hitting a wall, they don't disclose anything.

RW is hot potatoes in our personal finance internet huddles, but they are from my area (Raleigh, NC) and I have yet to meet anyone who has them. Similarly, I'm sure some of the MVNOs are doing really well in some low income population pools (judging from by own little excursions in the convenience stores of the less savory parts of town), but really it's just guesswork.

It's hard to find just that, unfortunately, and most of the knowledge has to be done through snippets of news interviews, income reports, and simply knowing the industry well enough to be able to read between the lines. Given the way RW walks around like they're the cock of the walk, you'd think they'd be willing to disclose actual usage numbers... and yet it's all hand-waiving and vague statements of "hundreds of thousands" or "healthy six figures" in promotional media puff-pieces, and the amount of churn matters with these numbers. Outside of AM's Tracfone brands, Republic appears to have a pretty high churn and low retention rate (even here, especially compared to the others used). Hard usage numbers are difficult to find, especially with the smaller carriers. Best you can do is subtract the 800lb MVNO gorilla usage numbers from the overall MNO wholesale numbers and extrapolate.

For frame of reference, America Movil last year had 26 million customers. Sprint's Q4 2014 wholesale customer gain alone was 527,000 out of 55.93 million total users, and they had a bad year financially. FreedomPop had gotten big enough on their own at only 250k+ subscribers that Sprint was talking about buying them, and FreedomPop's not a major player. That said and for additional frame of reference, Verizon's wholesalers need to maintain over 5,000 subscribers IIRC, and TalkForGood shuttered a couple years back for not meeting that threshold... so there's the potential for even tinier fish than Republic, but MVNOs that hang out in the 4-5 figure end of the pool providing live customer support usually don't survive.



I'm not disagreeing with you either and I am not offended at all.

I'm glad to hear we're on the same page, then. I just get irritated by crappy examples born out of marketing-speak of companies supposedly changing/influencing/revolutionizing the mobile industry when in the bigger picture, if anything, they've done more damage than good. Republic's a good example of this as bad user experiences can sour people to an entire market segment. I've met people who won't touch any MVNO simply because of their experiences with Tracfone and literally pay about 5x more than they need to with a major carrier because of it. I've lost track of the number of people just on these forums who I know have tried and got burned with Republic.

The bottom line, however, is that all MVNOs no matter how big - even Google - are nothing more than lampreys on the side of a blue whale. They are at the mercy of the MNOs and their wholesale pricing, and right now the MNOs are taking the MVNO market seriously enough that they're embrace-extend-extinguishing by using cheap data to pull people back in-house from the cheaper wholesalers through brands like Cricket, GoSmart and Boost. I wish them well, but their pricing is unremarkable and even with the high-profile company name attached, I don't see this getting much traction.

jmusic

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 465
  • Location: Somewhere...
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2015, 09:14:37 AM »
I wish them well, but their pricing is unremarkable and even with the high-profile company name attached, I don't see this getting much traction.

I agree with this.  They might get a bit more when they can do BYOD...

jmusic

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 465
  • Location: Somewhere...
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2015, 09:22:54 AM »
Funny.  I just googled "Google Fi" and the first thing that came up was Google's Finland site.  Project Fi was #2.

jmusic

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 465
  • Location: Somewhere...
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2015, 09:46:54 AM »
Sorry for replying to myself endlessly, but one thing I'm unclear on is voice and text on mobile networks, in light of IP Daley's report of services during a weather event. 

Specifically, are talk and text considered VOIP, or "regular" talk; SMS network or data?

Daley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5425
  • Location: Cow country. Moo.
  • Where there's a will...
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2015, 11:36:14 AM »
Sorry for replying to myself endlessly, but one thing I'm unclear on is voice and text on mobile networks, in light of IP Daley's report of services during a weather event. 

Specifically, are talk and text considered VOIP, or "regular" talk; SMS network or data?

Now granted, I can't speak with definitive authority, but a reasonable educated guess can be made given the dearth of what I do know. I imagine with Google's implementation and the pricing structure that mobile voice and SMS are not data based but traditional GSM voice service, so they should take precedence over all mobile data on towers. Most likely given Google's affinity for standards (when it's to their benefit), the GSM/WiFi handoff is just the same 3GPP UMA/GAN implementation I mentioned from 2005 that T-Mobile's been using all these years. This would mean that WiFi call termination on the Fi user end is probably still being routed through T-Mobile (as Sprint is only a 4G LTE roaming partner) instead of Google like traditional Hangouts would be. This also explains the fixed baseline price of $20/month for "unlimited" talk and text, as even over WiFi, the last leg of call routing is still being handled through T-Mobile. All this said... as an MVNO, they will still be third priority in the pecking order on the physical towers themselves. That pecking order from what I understand is as follows:

Voice first, SMS second, data third... though due to the nature of tower loads, SMS is the most reliable under heavy loads due to it not being real-time data critical.
In this data usage hierarchy, network services are prioritized postpaid first, prepaid/partner roaming second, wholesale/MVNO third.
Only one thing trumps all on a tower: first responder accounts.

Under normal situations, you'll probably never tell the difference with regular mobile voice calling even on heavier loaded towers, but under regional emergency conditions, the pecking order doesn't matter as much because once the towers are saturated, everyone is screwed. That said, even postpaid data will get throttled/disabled long before wholesale voice does. This is why I say mVoIP is such a bad idea - data's always the first to go on a busy tower, sufficiently high speed mobile data for mVoIP doesn't have the network footprint that traditional voice does, and those two reasons effectively make it less reliable and wholly inappropriate for people who actually need mobile phone service.

But back to Fi, T-Mobile, Sprint and the case for 3GPP UMA/GAN. Remember, Google has partner agreements with Sprint and T-Mobile with GV integration into their networks. In hindsight with the rollout of Fi, it makes perfect sense that these two carriers have integrated network trunking agreements with Google's VoIP network. T-Mobile has a history of SIP trunking, Sprint's had semi-public SIP trunking with their mobile network for years, and I even remember back in 2008 being able to make free SIP-to-Sprint phone calls... and a tumbler just fell into place.

Now, I will admit a misunderstanding on my own in the past and correct myself again regarding Republic. My original understanding from the Defy XT days still stands that they're mostly just using VoIP, call forwarding and mobile voice services. I had figured that given 3GPP2's (yes, I know it's confusing) CDMA2000 standard doesn't have anything that I know of along the lines of UMA/GAN for voice services, and after they launched their proprietary Moto X, I suspected they were doing 100% mVoIP. It probably still is some cludgy mVoIP for WiFi to tower handoff in most instances (especially for the call quality dropoff after the transition to mobile) and they might be leveraging some level of Sprint's SIP trunking back-end, but I've seen enough reports to know they still need and use a hidden second number and the CDMA voice network. This is likely given there's still considerable mobile data access and usage on the $10 plan. This should remain a concern, by the way, especially with their $10 "unlimited" talk and text plans. It probably routes mVoIP whenever possible, and if data connectivity is insufficient, fails over to the voice network when it can't. Remember, their old "beta" mobile usage restrictions back in 2011 used to be as low as 550 minutes and 150 texts without sufficient WiFi usage on a $20/month plan. People make a huge stink about the data and how the $500+ ToS penalty won't kick in before 5GB of data and the one time "free pass", but nowhere is there a disclosure about what constitutes mobile voice usage abuse.

...but back on topic. This really is why I don't recommend 100% mVoIP solutions like FreedomPop, TextNow, or getting T-Mobile's $30 5GB plan and violating their ToS by using a VoIP client over it. As for that concern with Google Fi? I don't think that concern applies here. A lot can be understood through the price structure of an MVNO, especially when you toss international roaming into the picture. For all intents and purposes, it looks like Fi phone termination isn't SIP/VoIP, but UMA/GAN. If this is the case, they'll get a higher pecking order on any mobile towers than the mVoIP providers would under peak load.

grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 6362
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2015, 10:01:28 AM »
FYI IP Daley has thrown up his blog post about Google Fi over here. It's mostly about rolling your own Google Fi equivalent, a bit different than the focus of the conversation here.

Thegoblinchief

  • Guest
Re: Google Wireless Service
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2015, 11:32:18 AM »
My pay-go average with AirVoice is $10/month. The $20 base charge is just way too high for people who don't need unlimited anything.

But hopefully the competition does something.