Going out to eat to boost earnings?

[APowers]

I found the quoted discussion \|/ below \|/ in a thread about social outings with spendy friends. I find it particularly intriguing, because it's such an unknown social-rules territory to me. How do you tell when a social function is networking and will be net benefit (due to pay raise, sales referral, etc. down the line), vs just spendypants behaviour? I know @nirodha was generalizing about the ~$100k+ income bracket, but does this apply to the $25k income bracket as well, and how do I use/learn this to boost from ~$30k income up to actual high-income levels?

I don't even know where to start with this. Like....do I fake it 'til I make it and live beyond my means for a few years to socialize with high-income people until going out lands me a dream job? How do I find that high-income social circle? How do I break into it once I know where it exists? Is this even the right way to think about this topic?

I just....don't know. I assume this is mostly unwritten wealth/income/social-class norms...but it's tough to tell through the culture-shock that is my perceptions. It feels a bit analogous to someone from a 3rd-world country coming to the U.S. and not comprehending WalMart; and not being able to find anything because even though they recognize that it's a store that sells stuff, it's so far removed from any scale of shop they've ever encountered.

Just split the check evenly. It is class appropriate behavior for high 5-figure to low 6-figure earners. Doing a bunch of drunk math to avoid sharing $20 ruins the good time. Bring a higher earner into the party, and they might even pick up the bill. Providing the correct social signaling is the price of being included in their game.

Part of what you are paying for here, is time at the table, in an upscale environment. $10 tacos aren't going to provide that experience. Not that both aren't a good time, but one is not a substitute for the other.

"Class appropriate", right.   The "more you make, the more you blow" isn't a class, it's a mentality. 

It is how people signal they are alike, which then leads to other reciprocity. Assuming the friends aren't losers, mirroring their behavior can more than pay for itself. The lower earner offering to cover OP's dinner suggests they are not losers. She may have been trying to gently guide OP through the social norms.

People give opportunities to their friends. It pays to have high earning friends. Wasteful or not, this is part of how they socialize.

This just seems like giving in to peer pressure.

Some career paths require networking to get ahead. Spending $100 on a dozen night outs seems like a pretty good deal when you get a nice pay raise for that promotion that was never even advertised. The main contracts that funded my FIRE came to because of who I knew and socialized with.

A $100 dinner is getting off cheap. This is foot in the door level, for the eventual full blending of your work and social circles. It is how people making "great" money live. They understand the value trade off.

I hate this stuff and have opted out of most of it. The opportunity cost is high, but I know what I am choosing. It sounds like OP might be unclear on that.

I've avoided coworkers planning 3 star Michelin dining that would run in the multiple hundreds per head. Annual company ski trips that would be a couple thousand, but give face time with the highest tiers. It only goes up from there. The behavior is part of paving the path to wealth.

[Bloop Bloop]

No, I don't think going out to eat is likely to boost your networking power/earnings. Most "networking" is done over a coffee or with a wink and a nod. The food is incidental and not required.

Having said that, I think MMM forumites do have an unhealthy obsession with eating out (or not eating out). It's only part of the big picture when it comes to spending and health.

[RetiredAt63]

My job networking was conferences and work associations.

At my own job, it was coffee in the staff lounge.  Plus committees.

[partgypsy]

I am low on the social networking scale. I try to keep updated (every couple years) my link to a work related job site. I currently sit on a group that runs a monthly meeting for our department. This group also does quarterly social outings and I try to attend those (and they are fun!) I have fallen down on: attending another monthly group meeting, and doing conferences outside of the department. if I wanted to network more that's what I would do. You don't have to spend a lot of money but you do have to show your face.

Basically the other kind of social networking, if you have to ask, you don't know how to do it right. That kind of social networking is, you are an artist. You are visiting the big city. A friend invites you to an art show. You go and meet other artists and possibly the gallery owner. Maybe they invite you to other functions, rinse and repeat. It's not a straightforward thing but connecting up with like minded people who may also know people in that line of work.

And if there is someone you are interested in talking to, because they are in your line of work and you want to know more, ask them out for coffee and pay for their coffee. No fancy lunch needed. I wouldn't directly ask someone for a job but say that you are interested in career opportunities in X area and what would she/he suggest. 

[cool7hand]

Isn't Covid rewriting these rules?

[slappy]

I saw that quote in the other thread and I thought it was somewhat strange. If you want to keep in touch with friends for networking purposes, there are plenty of ways to do that without dropping $100 on a night out. From my perspective, the goal of that kind of networking is just to keep in touch with people, have relationships. Those are usually built outside of "nights on the town".

[Zette]

There is a difference between networking and socializing.  As an engineer who made $100k+ and has friends in other fields, going out to lunch or happy hour with former co-workers may cost me $20 a pop and result in hearing about job opportunities that aren’t advertised - that’s networking.  Going out to dinner with my friends who are doctors, scientists, and accountants may be more expensive and is a lot less likely to lead to a job - that’s purely socializing.

The $100 evening out sounds to me to be social unless you’re in sales or management already and at a level where you are courting big deals.

If you’re making $25k, socializing with folks who make $30-$50k might allow you to hear about job openings or ask for advice on how to make the switch to a more lucrative line of work.  But think happy hour or watching the local sports team at a bar, not clubbing, and not regular $100 dinners.  The $100k jobs usually require a degree (engineering, etc), sales (in the right industry), or succeeding at owning a small business.

[Laura33]

That is just waaaaayyyy too simplistic.

Is there a certain kind of work and a certain kind of people where socializing with everyone outside the office via fancy dinners and ski trips is critical to having the right connections to get ahead?  I'm sure there is.

Are there a ton of jobs and opportunities where blatantly throwing money around just because is not necessary to get ahead?  Absolutely.

The key is to find the right environment and people for you.  I would argue that if you're not drawn to/comfortable in the world of high-fliers, then it doesn't even matter whether that works for other people, because it won't work for you -- you will need to be inauthentic and play the game, and if that's not a key tool in your toolbox, the others will see you as playing a role and not belonging, and you will not succeed.  Find a world that plays to your strengths, not where you need to be someone else to succeed.

I'm a lawyer.  I have seen a ton of incredible marketers in action, and have felt completely outclassed and like I could never keep up -- people who go to conferences and come home with 17 new contacts; people who do the high-class wine-and-dine circuit; the one guy who I swear never even got on a plane without coming up with at least one new contact from someone he met on the flight.  But you know how the best marketer at the firm does it?  He's the smartest person in the room, with the least ego about it; when he meets with clients, he focuses all that ridiculous brainpower on strategizing how to solve their problem; sure, he does the "meet for dinner after" thing, but at normal restaurants that normal people eat at, because that's where the clients are comfortable.  You know how the other best marketer at the firm does it?  He has spent 30 years trying to help people -- when someone needs a job, he calls on his entire network to help find one; when someone needs a referral, he spends his time tracking down the best one; he remembers (or at least keeps really good notes to remind himself of!) everyone's birthdays and kids' names and medical issues and life events, because he actually cares about them.  Oh: and both of those guys drove totally unimpressive cars to boot -- both made close to a million bucks a year, and one drove a big white minivan because he had young kids, while the other drove a 35-yr-old Volvo station wagon. 

Apparently DH and I have managed to "network" ok as well, despite a complete lack of a schmooze gene.  Know how I got my first client?  I had done work with him at another job, and he had remembered that I was wicked sharp, so he called me when he had an issue in my area.  I honestly hadn't even remembered the work and had done nothing special to "cultivate" a relationship.  Know how DH got a new job -- with a raise and promotion -- after his company shut down?  He immediately called and emailed a whole bunch of people he had worked with closely in the past, and they knew he was really smart and did good work, so they were happy to pass along information and recommend him to the Powers That Be who were looking to fill a slot.  Oh:  and in both cases, the obligatory cement-the-relationship meals involved delicious, cheap burritos and enchiladas at local hole-in-the-walls. 

tl;dr:  be you, not someone else.  Figure out what you do well and enjoy, and work that. 

[Bloop Bloop]

I'm a lawyer.  I have seen a ton of incredible marketers in action, and have felt completely outclassed and like I could never keep up -- people who go to conferences and come home with 17 new contacts; people who do the high-class wine-and-dine circuit; the one guy who I swear never even got on a plane without coming up with at least one new contact from someone he met on the flight.

I'm in the same field and most of the really good lawyers I know do not need to spend a great deal of time or effort in marketing (beyond just doing a good job at the work). After all, you only need to have enough work to fill your 40 (or whatever) hours per week. Beyond that it's all garbage. You could double your network - whatever that means - but if you've already got 40 hours a week of lucrative work and you don't want more, there's no point to it whatsoever. The only networking that's of any use is networking that will help you to get better opportunities or better work and that is a specific type of networking and often better done via helping others, as you said, or just being genuinely good at what you do.

As an anecdote, the only time I spent significant money on social networking was once when I spent $200 entertaining an opposing lawyer and his client. I'd got the vibe these guys were assholes and I thought wining and dining the two of them might help for our next trial (we were often opposed). Nope, the next day they were still assholes in Court, still harping on about inane technicalities for whatever godforsaken reason (doing this is seen as pretty uncouth and ungracious in my jurisdiction). At the end of the day the people who are going to like you will like you for what you bring to the table, not for what drinks you buy them.

[socaso]

There's a great book called "Never Eat Alone" by Keith Ferrazzi. It has a bunch of ideas about networking and not all of them are about spending money. You might like to check that out.

[jrhampt]

I think there's some truth to this.  I have a group of co-workers and former co-workers I hang out with (because I actually like spending time with them, not for networking purposes), and we do a mix of lower budget activities but also a bunch of sometimes spendy brunches and girls' beach weekends together.  Over the years, we've all found work opportunities through each other as we've cycled in and out of companies and within companies through different departments.  We help each other out and it's a great side bonus in addition to enjoying the time we spend together.  Some people's careers have progressed wildly during the 10+ year span that we've all been doing things together.

[FIRE 20/20]

I suspect that @nirodha is probably correct for their field and for their personality type and social circle, but my experience couldn't be more different.  I worked as an engineer after about 4 years I was well ahead of my age bracket in income and responsibility.  I worked on probably 20 or so different projects during my ~20 year career, and I found each one of those through my network.  I've also helped dozens of people in my network make connections and find new jobs or new roles within the same company.  Networking did play a large role in that despite the fact that I'm naturally very averse to networking.  Not once did I ever go out to eat and drop $100 on a meal or have a liquid lunch to show that I was in a particular social class.  Honestly, anyone who did that in any of the groups I was in would have been labelled as a phony immediately. 
In my experience, the best network is the group of people you've worked closely with and seen to be top performers.  Every job change I made - literally every single one - came from either contacting someone I worked with who I strongly suspected believed I was a top performer or from them contacting me.  The same worked in reverse - there are a handful of people who I would always reach out to when I needed a SW Lead, subject matter expert, SW Architect, or 10x developer.  None of them ever picked up the tab for an expensive meal and I never did the same for them.  In that group it would have been seen as strange and somewhat off-putting for someone to do that. 

I did occasionally work with the Business Development team, and they did seem to operate in the way nirodha described.  It always seemed like posturing and fake to me, but I'm sure they found me just as odd. 

Bottom line, I don't think it has to do with income or social class, I think it has more to do with the personalities involved.  Certain professions attract different personality types and that makes the difference I suspect. 

[Laura33]

I'm a lawyer.  I have seen a ton of incredible marketers in action, and have felt completely outclassed and like I could never keep up -- people who go to conferences and come home with 17 new contacts; people who do the high-class wine-and-dine circuit; the one guy who I swear never even got on a plane without coming up with at least one new contact from someone he met on the flight.

I'm in the same field and most of the really good lawyers I know do not need to spend a great deal of time or effort in marketing (beyond just doing a good job at the work). After all, you only need to have enough work to fill your 40 (or whatever) hours per week. Beyond that it's all garbage. You could double your network - whatever that means - but if you've already got 40 hours a week of lucrative work and you don't want more, there's no point to it whatsoever.

Maybe the difference is that I work in a firm of about 100 lawyers, so the push is not just to fill your own plate, but to fill the associates' as well -- and the more plates you can fill, the more you get paid. 

Honestly, the biggest benefit from working around those guys was figuring out that there are a thousand different ways to market, and that their paths did NOT work for me.  I remember when this one guy came in with a big case just because he had started chatting with the guy sitting next to him on an airplane.  Next flight I took, I thought, ok, I should talk to people.  Except (a) I'm an introvert, (b) I *hate* flying, and (c) the idea of getting stuck chatting with someone for the entire flight sounded like death.  So I scratched off that option.  Now, if I'd really needed/wanted to make the amount of money he did, I could have learned and put myself out there.  But I didn't, so I didn't. 

[mm1970]

There is a difference between networking and socializing.  As an engineer who made $100k+ and has friends in other fields, going out to lunch or happy hour with former co-workers may cost me $20 a pop and result in hearing about job opportunities that aren’t advertised - that’s networking.  Going out to dinner with my friends who are doctors, scientists, and accountants may be more expensive and is a lot less likely to lead to a job - that’s purely socializing.

The $100 evening out sounds to me to be social unless you’re in sales or management already and at a level where you are courting big deals.

If you’re making $25k, socializing with folks who make $30-$50k might allow you to hear about job openings or ask for advice on how to make the switch to a more lucrative line of work.  But think happy hour or watching the local sports team at a bar, not clubbing, and not regular $100 dinners.  The $100k jobs usually require a degree (engineering, etc), sales (in the right industry), or succeeding at owning a small business.

I agree with this. I haven't changed jobs in forever (I'm lazy that way), but I STILL have friends / former coworkers that I worked with in the late 1990s who call me up or recommend me to others at their companies when they have openings. 

[nirodha]

Just saw the OP - I don't think someone in the $25k bracket would employ the same dining strategy. Assuming competence, networking signals you belong to the target class. Jumping multiple classes at once is extremely unlikely. IMO, one needs to understand behaviors at the next level, before they can continue climbing. The exception could be someone who originated from a "high" class environment, but is temporarily playing on the lower end, maybe due to just getting out of school or taking a break. As another poster alluded, the behavior cannot appear inauthentic.

It's a little dated, but I like this book for explaining how the game tends to play out:

https://www.amazon.com/Empowering-Yourself-Organizational-Game-Revealed/dp/1449080340

My bet - the great marketers that get by on being sharp, doing a really good job, working hard, etc. - they already unconsciously exhibit the behaviors of their target class(es). They may have grown up that way. They may have learned it in school or from professional mentors. Maybe they automatically mirror the behaviors of others. But, they exhibit class appropriate patterns.

Generally, successful members of the upper class also understand to reflect "lower" class behaviors back down the chain, keeping positive relationships with those who support them. I'm reminded of a boss earning a couple million a year, who complained at lunch that subway ditched the $5 footlong deal. That wasn't for his benefit.

If you do not start life with privilege, someone has to tell you about the game being played. If you want to play at a higher level, you have to practice it. The crummy part is, that usually includes leaving your relationships from the "lower" classes behind. Either you sponsor them along or they become too large a drag on the new lifestyle. It's a harsh truth, but each class brings certain lifestyle bounds. Breaking them too often stops you from effectively integrating with the group. There are only so many hours a day, limits to how many directions you can head at once.