Author Topic: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark  (Read 14009 times)

Jesper

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Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« on: August 25, 2015, 06:24:08 AM »
Greetings fellow mustachians,


I found the wonderful MMM blog a couple of weeks ago and have been reading like crazy ever since. Loving it so far! I have always known I would like to reach FI one day, I just never figured I wouldn't have to create and sell a successfull company to get there.

I am 26 years old, live in the small kingdom of Denmark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark) in a rented apartment with my girlfriend. Just finished my education and got a job with a reasonable starting salary. At the moment I have no plan to retire, but I imagine I would want to around age 45. Some stats:

Salary
28.000 DKK before tax (this is alot less in USD these days)
17.000 DKK after tax (I'm still on the lowest tax level. Highest tax is somewhere around 60%)
2.520 DKK paid in company pension by my employer (9% and mandatory). This is going up to 12% next year and is being invested by a pension fund.

Assets
Two bicycles :)

Debt
Around 70.000 DKK (for being young and stupid you could say)

Savings
50% at the moment but working on saving more (everything is pretty expensive here as well). I live very frugally compared to the people i know, bike to work (7km/4,3 miles), have no car and unfortunately don't own anything worth mentioning.


My plan for now is to save everything possible, pay out all debt, invest (we don't have the same options with Vanguard and stuff, so got to figure this part out along the way). At some point I am hoping for children and maybe even a house (we are in no hurry for this though). I am finding it hard to calculate for FI already now since I have no idea how the future looks. Sure there will be more expenses, but my girlfriend will also finish her studies and get a job. And i expect my salary to be alot higher in 5-10 years. So for now i'm just going for maximum saving and gradually higher income.

I am having a couple of worries about how easy it will be to reach FI in Denmark though. As you can see most of my income is going to the government and we also have quite high taxes on investment income. On all stock income up till 50K you pay 27%, after this the tax is 42%. How is this taxed in US and other places? And do you think the taxes makes it impossible for me to reach my goal?

If you have questions about me, Denmark, taxes or other, feel free to comment..


EricP

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2015, 08:31:53 AM »
I don't think taxes make it impossible as you get a whole lot for those taxes, right?

Healthcare is "free," right?  College was free?  So while right now you have a NW of roughly zero, a lot of American college grads are working from -$30K or worse.

It is going to be a lot harder, though.  At a 50% savings rate, I don't think you'll be able to retire by 45 since you're getting taxed on both your income and your Capital Gains where in the US (for the most part) most of our money can be put in tax sheltered places.

My biggest question is how does your pension work and is that money part of the 17,000 DKK so you're actual take home pay is 14,480 DKK and then you save half of that?

If you save half of that then your spending is 7,240 DKK which if I put the 27% investment taxes on that will put your pre-tax income in retirement income at 9917 DKK.  That corresponds to a nut of 247,925 DKK.  At your current rate of saving you're looking at 18-20 years depending on your RoI.

[Shit, just noticed you have 70k DKK in debt so this whole analysis is bunk, but my overall point is that your high taxes come with some perks that make retirement a little easier, just make sure to account for the capital gains tax on the back-end when computing your "nut")
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 10:33:23 AM by EricP »

Jesper

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2015, 10:20:17 AM »
Thank you for the answer.

Yes, that is true. All healthcare, education, childcare, preschool and other stuff is a 100% free. And we do get a significant public pension when reaching retirement age. I believe it is somewhere around 70.000 DKK a year.

Sorry for being unclear on the pension. This is an additional to my salary. So my take home pay is still the 17.000 DKK. The pension itself is locked until the official pension age (probably 70 at my time) where you can withdraw it at "low" tax rates - around 40%. If you withdraw it before you will be heavily taxed. The ROI on these pensions have been 9-11% the last couple of years - due to the danish stock market performing really well.

I expect to raise my income significantly during the next 10 years. Next to my full time job I am doing an additional university degree - this will finished in 3 years and should improve my "market value" alot. My current salary is a first employed salary and from looking at coworkers and statistics i should be at minimum 45-50K DKK monthly in 10 years - hopefully at 35-40 in about 5 years. Then my savings rate also will increase.

By the way, the debt is in danish kroners so it is more like 10.800 USD.

Ozapftis

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2015, 10:33:28 AM »
Although taxation in Europe does look like a major disadvantage compared to other places and seem to make FIRE impossible, the overall picture looks a little bit better at second glance, especially for young families. There are a number of reasons:

1) Compared to almost all other countries, the US provides a highly unusual, almost uniquely favorable environment for FIRE. This applies in particular to very high income earners without kids. Be aware, however, that even for US standards today's capital gains tax levels and tax shelter possibilities are exceptional and of rather recent nature. In the 1970s and much of the 80s, comparable tax sheltered retirement options didn't exist (401k first in 1978, ROTH IRA since 1989 etc.) and capital gains tax ate as much as 40% of your gains.

2) If you plan to start a family with 2 or more kids, many of the services that are provided in Europe for "free" (=via higher taxes) mean additional out of pocket expenses for US parents. So, it also counts what your personal situation will be in the long run.

I don't know the exact details in Denmark, but there are some advantages in Europe that are common in many countries and that will at least partially offset higher taxes for a family:

-Health insurance premiums are based on income, not health status. If you or one of your dependants develops a chronic health problem, it likely won't affect your savings rate at all. Also, treatment cost is not capped to a certain amount. So, if you and your SO are of the frugal type and happen to be of advanced age with a number of chronic conditions, you'll still be able to afford health care for a very moderate price. Furthermore, dependants are insured for free. A large portion of US parents is at a clear disadvantage here financially.

-Schools. In the US, the quality of education provided by public schools is often of rather low quality, particularly in big cities (exceptions aside, of course). In Europe, while schools are not perfect, the quality of public schools is at least acceptable, and it is so in almost all places. Drug trafficking or crime in schools is less of an issue. Depending on the location a US family is bound to because of work, it might have to pay for private school.

-College. In the US, tuition even for an in-state student at a public university frequently runs up a five-digit figure. Annually. For every single kid in the family. Thus, many US households face tuition expenses of $80k just for their two kids to get bachelor's degrees. In reality, the cost is much higher because the both-kids-as-in-state-students-at-State-U is about the financially cheapest path possible. In Europe: Next to nothing extra. Some people in the US get their degrees via military/ROTC and pay for their tuition later via years of service. This is not an option for everyone, though.

-Property taxes. In the US, property taxes are HIGH. A family residence frequently runs up thousands of $ just in property taxes each year. I don't know about the situation in Denmark, but for my apartment in Germany worth roughly $220k, my annual property tax bill is about $190. Although city-provided services (garbage pickup, etc.) have to be paid for extra, all those expenses combined plus taxes is nowhere near as high as a typical US property tax charge.

To sum things up, as a high-income individual working for a large company and without the intention of having a family, it is easier to FIRE in the US than in Europe. On the other hand, many of the disadvantages that stem from Europe's high taxation are at least partially absorbed for families, while US parents have to pay for everything extra. So, for a medium-income European family (e.g. $70k-$90k before taxes) FIRE might actually be easier to achieve than for its US counterpart.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 10:37:15 AM by Ozapftis »

LennStar

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2015, 11:00:58 AM »
As the Bavarian said, the taxes (=social payings) sound quite high you get a lot of stuff for "free" with it. That is especially true if you and/or children go to university.

Heck, is there a better student then a FIREd mustachian, who has the time to get a real education and not only the fast-track bachelor they impose now on everyone? Also you get cheaper public transport, which offsets any second-diploma / long time penalties.

Also because of the mandatory retirement payments your stash can be smaller. You dont need a big safety margin because even if you use up half of the capital because of some extraordinary bad thing before you reach retirement you still can live comfortingly on the interest of the second half+pension.

Also renting prices are on average way lower then US, not only because of the size. Crime and conflicts and humans living like trash is negligible compared to US because of the better social system.

All in all you may take 5 years longer, but have a lot more security in different meaning. For me its worth this.

Jesper

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2015, 11:50:05 AM »
Well, i definitely do see there are some pros - and cons.

It has to be doable.. I just can't figure out the mathematics in all. Is there anywhere in the forum to see how the different calculations is made? E.g. if i put in 8500 DKK a month and get a ROi of 5%. How much will it be in 10 years? I know this should be put in the financial calculator, but I can't quite figure out how many terms and so on.

lordmetroid

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2015, 12:35:58 PM »
Greetings from Sweden, taxes does indeed make us a little bit poorer in some extents however we also do not need to worry about healthcare and education as much our overseas friends. This means we do not need 1 million dollars to retire. I myself am aiming for a portfolio of 2 million SEK which is 240 thousand USD. If everything goes according to plan I will be retired in 10 years in my early 40s.

EricP

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2015, 12:40:36 PM »
Well, i definitely do see there are some pros - and cons.

It has to be doable.. I just can't figure out the mathematics in all. Is there anywhere in the forum to see how the different calculations is made? E.g. if i put in 8500 DKK a month and get a ROi of 5%. How much will it be in 10 years? I know this should be put in the financial calculator, but I can't quite figure out how many terms and so on.

I just use Dave Ramsey's investment calculator for figuring out stuff like that: http://www.daveramsey.com/blog/investing-calculator/#/entry_form

It's simple and straight forward while still getting the job done.

lordmetroid

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2015, 12:56:56 PM »
Well, i definitely do see there are some pros - and cons.

It has to be doable.. I just can't figure out the mathematics in all. Is there anywhere in the forum to see how the different calculations is made? E.g. if i put in 8500 DKK a month and get a ROi of 5%. How much will it be in 10 years? I know this should be put in the financial calculator, but I can't quite figure out how many terms and so on.
What you need to retire depends very much on how much you need to live on. If for example you live on half your salary you will need 16,6 years starting from zero stash to gain a sufficient nest egg to live on according to Networthify

Argyle

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2015, 01:51:21 PM »
So you have more than four times your take-home pay in debt?  How did that happen, and are you sure it's stopped happening?  Do you have something to show for that?  Possessions or skills?  Your problem isn't the tax system, it's your debt.  If you put half your salary toward your debt, it will still take eight years to pay off, not counting interest.  What interest is that debt at?  And is there a way to increase your earnings and get that debt paid off faster?

gaja

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2015, 03:08:41 PM »
@argyle I'm pretty sure that income is monthly.

@StacheDK: greetings from Norway. I'm also struggling with calculating the number. One added issue are state pensions, free nursing homes/home care, and senior discounts. I think, if I can build a stache that lasts until I'm 70, I can be a leach on society's butt after that. But the fewer years you work, the smaller the state pension is. So some sort of balance is needed.

Argyle

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2015, 03:45:23 PM »
Ah, okay!  My  bad!

EricP

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2015, 03:49:49 PM »
So that income is a monthly income?  Not an annual?

So OP is at ~80k DKK in annual spending? SO a portion of his cap gains will be subject to that 42% marginal rate?  That's pretty punishing.

Follow-up question, will dividends be subject to the 42% as well?  So OP's gains will be lower than those of us with the majority of our nuts in IRA/401k/HSAs?

Argyle

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2015, 08:26:29 PM »
I looked it up for the clarity of the Americans following this thread.  One Danish krone is currently worth 15 cents.  So the OP nets $2626 (US dollars) per month, or $31,518 per year, and has a debt of $10,814.

patrickza

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2015, 01:59:19 AM »
One added issue are state pensions, free nursing homes/home care, and senior discounts. I think, if I can build a stache that lasts until I'm 70, I can be a leach on society's butt after that. But the fewer years you work, the smaller the state pension is. So some sort of balance is needed.
Yeah with those sorts of services available you really don't need to worry about your old age. I would just see if there's a chart somewhere which tells you how many years you need to contribute for a certain level of pension payout, and then you just worry about the years from FI to retirement.

Your salary is lower than I would have expected for a Northern European country. Will it grow quickly or significantly?

Jesper

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2015, 07:23:48 AM »
@Lortmetroid & @gaja - Good to see other scandinavians in here! How are you investing your stashes? I guess you must be taxed pretty similarly on capital gains?


I just use Dave Ramsey's investment calculator for figuring out stuff like that: http://www.daveramsey.com/blog/investing-calculator/#/entry_form

Thanks, seems like a great tool! Anybody have some tips on MMM's 10 year calculations? E.g. how much a weekly dinner out adds up to in ten years.. Can't seem to find that in here..


Apologies for the confusion. To clear it up a bit, here are the annual numbers in both DKK and USD:

Annual income pre tax:            51,692 USD  /  336,000 DKK
Annual income after tax:          31,384 USD  /  204,000 DKK
Annual spendings:                   15,692 USD  /  102,000 DKK

Annual pension contributions:   4,652 USD  /  30,240 DKK (Mandatory 9% of salary, paid by employer. Available for payout around 2059 at a 42% tax rate)
Annual danish public pension: 10,769 USD  /  70,000 DKK (Minimum amount. Available every year from 2059 till the lights go out)

All annual capital gains from 0 - 7,692 USD will be taxed at 27%. Everything above will be taxed at 42%.


I guess the best bet is to worry about the years from FI to the public pensions kicks in. A 9% ROI on stocks should then be around 5.22 % after taxes by my calculations (not calculating in the 7,692 USD at 27%) - I guess can use this in the calculators?


@patrickza - the average annual salary per person in DK is around 45,230 USD / 294,000 DKK. With a good college degree it's normal to get around 65K USD in starting salary (i am still doing mine, but working 37 hours weekly on the side). I don't expect it to be unrealistic to hit around the 100K USD though, depending on how long I work. I have family members though (lawyer & engineer) who earn above the 200K USD. So income can vary a great deal here too - it's the taxes that evens it out. At that income you pay around 56% in taxes +  8% in AM contributions.

Ozapftis

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2015, 08:20:50 AM »
Thanks, seems like a great tool! Anybody have some tips on MMM's 10 year calculations? E.g. how much a weekly dinner out adds up to in ten years.. Can't seem to find that in here..

For a quick-and-dirty approximation, MMM uses the multiplier 176 for a 10-year period. Reason: A broad stock market index fund yields an annual rate of return of about 7,5% in the long run. So, if you put a fixed amount of money into it every month over the next 10 years, you'll end up with roughly 176 times your monthly investment.

EricP

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2015, 09:09:44 AM »
Quote
I guess the best bet is to worry about the years from FI to the public pensions kicks in. A 9% ROI on stocks should then be around 5.22 % after taxes by my calculations (not calculating in the 7,692 USD at 27%) - I guess can use this in the calculators?

I would not use that 5.22% number as the majority of the taxes will hit at the end and you'll be able to compound on the 9% until you start needing to sell off stocks.  I'm not an expert on Danish law, but I believe that your dividends will get taxed along the way so there will be a slight hit to your earnings, but most gains will be safe until the end.  Now you do need to account for taxes, but I would just do that in calculating how big of a "Stashe" you need.

Here's an example of what I mean:

Initial Investment: 10,000 DKK

Year 1: Investment Grows to 10,700 DKK plus a dividend payment of 200 DKK.  The 200 DKK is taxed at 27% (or 42%) so you only get 146 DKK (or 112 DKK) of this so your actual gains is only 8.46% (or 8.11%) instead of 9%, but it's still much higher than the 5.22% that you calculated out by taxing all of the gains.


(Also I'm okay keeping everything in DKK.  Constantly switching back and forth between USD and DKK just confuses me)



Jesper

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2015, 01:59:52 PM »
@Ozapftis - Thanks!

@EricP - Sounds pretty logical actually. Then it's not as bad as I thought, and it should still be pretty manageable. Don't you get taxed on the dividends in the states at all?

Just fiddled around with my budgets and expenses. Think I can make my saving 55% instead. And should then be able to pay more than 30,000 DKK on the debt before 2016! Hooray.

EricP

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2015, 02:12:57 PM »
@EricP - Sounds pretty logical actually. Then it's not as bad as I thought, and it should still be pretty manageable. Don't you get taxed on the dividends in the states at all?

Yes, but only on money in "taxable accounts."  Money in IRAs and 401(k)s will grow "tax-deferred" meaning that the dividends are not taxed when they are paid but only when you take it out of the account.  Additionally, the income used for the deposit is not taxed.  So the $5500 you put into your IRA is not subject to your marginal rate and only gets taxed on the "backside."

There are Roth versions of the above accounts which are said to grow "tax-free" where you pay taxes on the income (or the "frontside") but do not pay taxes on the backside.  Dividends are not taxed at all in Roth accounts.

Please correct if I messed something up or if something is confusing.

gaja

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2015, 04:26:30 PM »
@Lortmetroid & @gaja - Good to see other scandinavians in here! How are you investing your stashes? I guess you must be taxed pretty similarly on capital gains?

Not only are we taxed on capital gain, we are also taxed on net worth if it gets above 150 000. But that part of the tax bill is only .7%, so not really a big deal. When 3/4 of our household has special needs, and just the hospital bills would be enough to break us in other lands, I don't see how we could reach FI without the safety of the welfare state. So I pay my taxes quite gladly, and don't speculate too much about where to put the savings.

JJNL

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2015, 10:50:31 PM »
I would say that one of the advantages of trying to FIRE in a high-tax country like yours and mine (hello from the Netherlands, if you thought you were the only ones being taxed to the max, come check us out some time ;) is that we can retire on a smaller stash if you just look at what you have to actually save and invest yourself. The 4% withdrawal rate MMM and all the Americans are using is based on the assumption that you will be living on your accumulated stash FOREVER. Whereas for you and me, there will be a social security check and the compulsory workers' pension you mentioned when we reach retirement age (we have something similar). That means the 4% rule only counts for the amount you will still be needing on top of that from the day you turn 70 until the day you die. For the money you need on top of the 4% for ever amount during the period from FIRE until 70 (basically the bit that gets replaced by social security and pensions at age 70), you can use a stash that gets eaten completely - no need to have 25x annual expenses since you are NOT trying to live on that bit forever, you are using it from your FIRE date until 70 only.

DrSweden

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2015, 11:52:49 PM »
Greeting from Sweden (Skåne). Do you live in Copenhagen? I used to live there and some things are expensive there. I did however not Think about Money when I was 19 and lived there.

You have nordnet as well in Denmark. The have a indexfund with noo fee at all. Check it out!

Moonwaves

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2015, 05:06:47 AM »
Commenting to follow. :)

Jesper

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2015, 05:53:21 AM »
@EricP – Ah I see. Thanks for the clarification.


@gaja – I agree that it is a major comfort to know you will be taking care of – no matter who you are and what your condition is. I don’t think anybody here really mind the taxes. I remember reading that 88% of danes are happy to pay it, me including.
Sometimes it just gets a bit out of hand: For example to buy a VW Passat 1.6 TDI at the price of 352,998 DKK (of which 230,981 is VAT and taxes) you have to earn 882,495 DKK (at 60% tax). The real price of the car is then 122,017 DKK, but you are paying 882,495 DKK. 760,478 DKK of this is taxes so you are basically paying 623% of the cars price in tax.
But in return you can take an education as a doctor (or anything else) for free and actually being paid around 900$ a month for doing it (and you don’t have to pay it back). In my opinion this is definitely also one of the major advantages of living in our high taxed countries.


@JJNL – Actually going to NL next month on a company trip! But yes it is a good point you make. Do you know how much you want to save yet? And how did you get to the number?


@DrSweden – Tjena! No, I live in Aalborg. But my SO just took a semester at Lund University, so I have been visiting Skåne a lot lately :) I recently made an account at Nordnet, but haven’t checked it out yet. I am pretty new at stock investing. Thanks for the tip! Do you invest in their index funds as well?

DrSweden

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2015, 06:23:55 AM »
@EricP – Ah I see. Thanks for the clarification.


@gaja – I agree that it is a major comfort to know you will be taking care of – no matter who you are and what your condition is. I don’t think anybody here really mind the taxes. I remember reading that 88% of danes are happy to pay it, me including.
Sometimes it just gets a bit out of hand: For example to buy a VW Passat 1.6 TDI at the price of 352,998 DKK (of which 230,981 is VAT and taxes) you have to earn 882,495 DKK (at 60% tax). The real price of the car is then 122,017 DKK, but you are paying 882,495 DKK. 760,478 DKK of this is taxes so you are basically paying 623% of the cars price in tax.
But in return you can take an education as a doctor (or anything else) for free and actually being paid around 900$ a month for doing it (and you don’t have to pay it back). In my opinion this is definitely also one of the major advantages of living in our high taxed countries.


@JJNL – Actually going to NL next month on a company trip! But yes it is a good point you make. Do you know how much you want to save yet? And how did you get to the number?


@DrSweden – Tjena! No, I live in Aalborg. But my SO just took a semester at Lund University, so I have been visiting Skåne a lot lately :) I recently made an account at Nordnet, but haven’t checked it out yet. I am pretty new at stock investing. Thanks for the tip! Do you invest in their index funds as well?

I invest with Avanza. But the concept is the same. I don't Think Avanza operates in Denmark. I invest in indexfunds and stocks I like and pays a good dividend. You could also buy small apartments (ejerlejlighed) and rent to students? We cant do that in sweden

Jesper

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2015, 06:50:56 AM »
Ah okay. Think i'll look more into Nordnet - it seems to be what most people use here. It's also what they recommend in "millionærklubben" (danish radio program about investing).
How come you can't invest in student apartments in Sweden?

rubybeth

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2015, 07:25:31 AM »
Also commenting to follow.

WYOGO

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2015, 10:20:37 AM »
Seems pretty straight forward, just make it to 70 and there should be a happy ending.

Interesting to hear how mustachian principles are applied in other parts of the world.

I admire the progressiveness and effort of many European nations especially with respect to ones quality of life, but would not for an instant trade a high salary with a total tax burden of less than 10% for a system that limited MY option to optimize and navigate the inevitable minefield of government inefficiency.


JJNL

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2015, 12:29:11 PM »
@StacheDK: I have yet to formulate a definitive savings goal - I've only just started, so right now I am focussing on cutting costs and starting to invest. At the very least, I would like to have a 100% paid off mortgage, so my COL would decrease dramatically. That would make me a lot more flexible in terms of jobs I could accept (or not accept) and choices I could make (like just deciding to go travelling for a year or something like that). But the figure the Dutchies on here have been bandying about for FIRE is 16x your annual expenses in retirement. This was based on a back-of-the-envelope-calculation by one of us, if we manage to figure out a definitive FIRE-figure for the Netherlands I will  definitely let you know :).

Jesper

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2015, 01:20:45 PM »
@WYOGO - It is definitely two very different ways of running a country :) I have to admit I sometimes envy the options in the US for does who are able to make use of them. But I guess it depends on ones own life situation.

@JJNL - Sounds wise. Also thought to aim for that.. gives a good deal of freedom. Please do, would like to know! Seems like we have pretty similar conditions also in NL/DK - as well as an innate love for bicycling.

DrSweden

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2015, 01:54:45 PM »
Ah okay. Think i'll look more into Nordnet - it seems to be what most people use here. It's also what they recommend in "millionærklubben" (danish radio program about investing).
How come you can't invest in student apartments in Sweden?

We only have a type of andelsbolig in Sweden and we are not allwed to rent them out. We have a few ejerleijligheder but very few.

katthjul

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2015, 02:10:49 PM »
@Lortmetroid & @gaja - Good to see other scandinavians in here! How are you investing your stashes? I guess you must be taxed pretty similarly on capital gains?

Not only are we taxed on capital gain, we are also taxed on net worth if it gets above 150 000. But that part of the tax bill is only .7%, so not really a big deal. When 3/4 of our household has special needs, and just the hospital bills would be enough to break us in other lands, I don't see how we could reach FI without the safety of the welfare state. So I pay my taxes quite gladly, and don't speculate too much about where to put the savings.

Another greeting from Sweden. We actually can choose between tax on capital gains and dividends (30%) OR a yearly tax on market value and deposits (0-1.5%). Thankfully, there is no longer a tax on net worth.

Edit: Got the minimum yearly tax wrong. The law allows for a negative value, but I doubt it will happen.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 09:24:14 AM by katthjul »

EricP

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2015, 02:46:21 PM »
I would say that one of the advantages of trying to FIRE in a high-tax country like yours and mine (hello from the Netherlands, if you thought you were the only ones being taxed to the max, come check us out some time ;) is that we can retire on a smaller stash if you just look at what you have to actually save and invest yourself. The 4% withdrawal rate MMM and all the Americans are using is based on the assumption that you will be living on your accumulated stash FOREVER. Whereas for you and me, there will be a social security check and the compulsory workers' pension you mentioned when we reach retirement age (we have something similar). That means the 4% rule only counts for the amount you will still be needing on top of that from the day you turn 70 until the day you die. For the money you need on top of the 4% for ever amount during the period from FIRE until 70 (basically the bit that gets replaced by social security and pensions at age 70), you can use a stash that gets eaten completely - no need to have 25x annual expenses since you are NOT trying to live on that bit forever, you are using it from your FIRE date until 70 only.

Americans have SS as well and that is one of the safety nets that MMM talks about.  For most MMM types, SS can cover a large percentage of their expenses and is one of the safety nets that MMM talks about that makes 4% a safe number.

Even if you're only going 25 years, you still won't be able to push that number much higher than 4%.  And you can't forget that Americans are helped by a lot of different tax benefits that northern Europeans won't see.  Growth (dividends) being taxed and wealth taxes will eat significantly into your stashe during retirement.  I'm not sure which country gaja is from, but a 0.7% tax on net worth is painful when you look at that over 25+ years.


JJNL

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2015, 12:20:21 PM »
Only 0.7% tax is very little - we Dutchies pay 1,2% on any stash above 21000. The government assumes 4% ROI and taxes that at 30%. Which is far too high, IMHO, us Dutchies tend to be savers and 4% hasn't been a realistic interest rate for a long while now.

@StacheDK: LOL, you are right - you will pry my bicycle from my cold, dead hands.

mm1970

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2015, 12:25:28 PM »
Yep, it appears taxes are high but...my MIL grew up in Denmark, and my spouse still has relatives and friends there.

They seem to be super happy, despite the high taxes.  At least, they do travel a lot more and get more vacations than we do.  Some of our friends just visited us again this summer (in CA).  Note: I've been to Copenhagen exactly twice in the 23 years I've known my husband, but these particular friends have visited us more than that.  With their kids.

EricP

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2015, 01:04:09 PM »
Only 0.7% tax is very little - we Dutchies pay 1,2% on any stash above 21000. The government assumes 4% ROI and taxes that at 30%. Which is far too high, IMHO, us Dutchies tend to be savers and 4% hasn't been a realistic interest rate for a long while now.

@StacheDK: LOL, you are right - you will pry my bicycle from my cold, dead hands.

0.7% isn't small at all.  That effectively reduces your SWR from 4% to 3.3%.

Take a stashe of 1M, for instance.  The government is going to be taking $7,000 every year from that stashe. To keep at the 4%, that leaves you with only $33k, instead of what a non wealth taxed country's safe withdrawal of $40k.  That hurts a lot.

Ozapftis

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2015, 01:46:12 PM »
Only 0.7% tax is very little - we Dutchies pay 1,2% on any stash above 21000. The government assumes 4% ROI and taxes that at 30%. Which is far too high, IMHO, us Dutchies tend to be savers and 4% hasn't been a realistic interest rate for a long while now.

@StacheDK: LOL, you are right - you will pry my bicycle from my cold, dead hands.

0.7% isn't small at all.  That effectively reduces your SWR from 4% to 3.3%.

Take a stashe of 1M, for instance.  The government is going to be taking $7,000 every year from that stashe. To keep at the 4%, that leaves you with only $33k, instead of what a non wealth taxed country's safe withdrawal of $40k.  That hurts a lot.

Wait...you guys in Denmark and Sweden get taxed on invested assets and not your income? Did I understand this correctly? So not only do you get aggressively taxed on your income from work, but in case you don't spend everything and have the rest sit in a bank account it is taxed again? Irrespectively of whether it returned anything, just because it is there?
Please tell me that I'm wrong here...

On the other hand, does this really affect you guys when FIRE? Some countries exempt the first X thousand €s of income from taxation, e.g. Germany. When one is FIRE and only lives off income from capital the first €8,354 are tax free and everything above is taxed progressively (technically you get the tax charge on capital gains in full during the year, but once you file your income tax return it is refunded if your total household income is below that threshold).
In other words, if a single person household in Germany earns €20,000 a year, the first €8,354 are tax free, then taxed progressively until the tax rate peaks at 27% for the 20,000th Euro earned. But the total income tax charged only adds up to €2,779 or 13,9% of your total income.

Do you guys in Denmark and Sweden have certain amounts of your household income exempt from tax, too?

EDIT: added clarification
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 02:22:45 PM by Ozapftis »

LennStar

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2015, 11:53:27 PM »
Yep, it appears taxes are high but...my MIL grew up in Denmark, and my spouse still has relatives and friends there.

They seem to be super happy, despite the high taxes.  At least, they do travel a lot more and get more vacations than we do.  Some of our friends just visited us again this summer (in CA).  Note: I've been to Copenhagen exactly twice in the 23 years I've known my husband, but these particular friends have visited us more than that.  With their kids.
Actually high taxes are the cause for happiness. At least indirectly. The bigger the difference in income in a society, the higher the social problems and unhappiness.

Quote
Wait...you guys in Denmark and Sweden get taxed on invested assets and not your income?
Taxing on existing wealth is fairly normal. What do you think property taxes in the US are?

In Germany there is just no Vermögenssteuer because the BVerfG ruled that house prices must be taxed on current worth, not from 1970, and that was too much for all those house owners in the Bundestag.

lordmetroid

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2015, 01:26:07 AM »
Sweden have abolished the wealth tax, instead you can choose to eiher use an Investment Savings Account  or an Equity and Fund Account for your capital investments. The the total capital investements made in an Investment Saving Account gets taxed on a yearly basis according to 30% of the state-lending interests rates( currently 0,9%*30% = 0,27% ). The Equity and Fund account gets taxed 30% on any gains made.

JJNL

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2015, 01:35:48 AM »
@Ozapftis: you are right, that is exactly what happens in the Netherlands. On the other hand, property taxes on real estate are much lower than in the US, and we can deduct interest on a mortgage for you primary residence from our taxable income. Effectively the government is encouraging us to invest money we have left over in a house.

Jesper

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2015, 02:09:22 AM »
Yes, that is another thing we have in many northern european countries. 5 weeks paid vacation + 5 x xtra free vacation days. Also a 37 hour workweek (norm here) and a guaranteed income if we loose our job (that you can live on, if your are a mustachian).

We haven't had wealth tax in DK since 1997. We do have the property tax though - a good reason not to buy a huge mansion when shopping for a house.

@DrSweden - I surprised to hear that. Can't you just get your own org. nr. and own it under a business?

lemanfan

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2015, 03:14:14 AM »
Another swede here...

@DrSweden - I surprised to hear that. Can't you just get your own org. nr. and own it under a business?

The problem with renting out an apartment is in the bylaws of the housing association in that case. The newspapers have had lots of stories of people getting in trouble because of offering their apartments on Airbnb now.

If you want to rent out apartments, you have to go all the way to owning a rental complex of your own. 

One more thing that diffrentiates Sweden from what you read in the forums about US landlording is that the rental agreement is usually not limited in time - it's more or less ongoing until the tennant decides to move. It can be quite complex for the landlord to terminate the contract unless the tennant really screws up with rent payments or disturbances.  I would assume it is similar in Denmark?

Jesper

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2015, 08:22:30 AM »
Yes, here it's also most common to do a rental contract without a time limit. While it is possible to do one, it's a bit more complex.
There is also a lot of horror stories of landlords who neglected to put in a annual price increase in the contract and now have to rent out a unit for i.e. 1980 prices because the tenant has lived there since then.

K-ice

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2015, 11:12:54 AM »
Too bad it sounds like being a landlord is so complicated.

Real-estate is a significant portion of my stash in Canada.

There it sounds like only the super rich, who can purchase an entire block, can profit from this.
I noticed an elitist attitude to home ownership in Switserland when traveling there a decade ago.  I'm not sure if that is similar in other European countries or has changed.







gaja

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2015, 03:47:10 PM »
Only 0.7% tax is very little - we Dutchies pay 1,2% on any stash above 21000. The government assumes 4% ROI and taxes that at 30%. Which is far too high, IMHO, us Dutchies tend to be savers and 4% hasn't been a realistic interest rate for a long while now.

@StacheDK: LOL, you are right - you will pry my bicycle from my cold, dead hands.

0.7% isn't small at all.  That effectively reduces your SWR from 4% to 3.3%.

Take a stashe of 1M, for instance.  The government is going to be taking $7,000 every year from that stashe. To keep at the 4%, that leaves you with only $33k, instead of what a non wealth taxed country's safe withdrawal of $40k.  That hurts a lot.

My (tax funded) state pension will be somewhere around $50 000 (66% of last paycheck). I'm OK with that $7000 loss.

The .7% wealth tax is in Norway. And as far as I'm concerned, the government isn't taking anything. The taxes I pay is paying for my use of schools, hospitals, roads, unemployment benefits, paid sick leave, etc. The wealth tax is just to make sure everyone pays (roughly) a fair share.

Your primary recidence has a high deductible. The first $5000-10000 of income are not taxed. There is some weird tax deduction thing on dividends, but I don't agree with it so I choose not to claim it.

I once calculated the value of everything my household had gotten because of the welfare state (education, health related, unemployment pay, etc). If I pay plenty of tax until I'm 70, I might be able to pay it back. But then we get pensions, and are back in the red.

LSK

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2015, 01:10:19 AM »
Hi StacheDK

Good to see another Dane on MMM!
If you search the forum you'll find threads with good information, that can provide answers to at least some of your questions. Especially check out the thread in the Meetup section, as there are a good handful of Danes here already. Plus I put a link in that thread to an episode of "Millionærklubben" that basically confirms the "Index investment model" in case you need more reassurances :-)
Also check out Jcollinsnh's blog, as I've written some questions (and answers) over there, that might be useful for you.
If there are still things you are in doubt of, feel free to ask, and maybe I or some of the other Danes can provide the specific answer.
http://jlcollinsnh.com/2013/05/02/stocks-part-xvii-what-if-you-cant-buy-vtsax-or-even-vanguard/

Just to add to your overall question if you can FIRE in Denmark, then yes I believe it is possible, regardless of tax percentages. If you haven't checked out the ERE blog, then be sure to do so, as it is sort of a precursor to MMM and Jakob that hosts(hosted) the blog is a Dane.
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/


Comparing the welfare societies of northern Europe to the US model, have already been attempted in several threads, but they unfortunately always seem to divulge into simplistic comparisons based on misinformation and lack of information. The tax and benefit systems of at least Denmark are quite intricate, and it would make no sense to do a straight tax percentage comparison, because you would be missing half (or more) of the picture.

In the US you get little from the system, but you also pay little into it. In Denmark you get a lot from the system, and you pay a lot into it. Personally I think it is easiest not to think about tax percentages but focus on efficiency:
How efficient is one system in turning the tax into useful services to the members, and how does the provided services match up with your wants/needs?


I think if you lived an average life, with an average wage, got a decent education, experienced times of sickness and unemployment, had kids and a house, then it is my impression that the welfare society model would be preferable.
Now the thing is that most Mustachians are usually not "average joes", and therefore their needs might not match up well with the model that the society is servicing, and therefore I can see that at least in the accumulation phase, the US model would be preferable.


Anyways I think the bottom line is that you're in a very good position to FIRE some years down the line, as you have the distinct advantage of starting to work on this at an early age, plus there are people who are on the same path and maybe further down it, that you can ask for advice :-)

Jesper

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2015, 05:53:12 AM »
Hi LSK,


Good to know i am not the only one!

Thanks for all the tips! I have been reading through all of the posts, links and stuff. Also i'll have to read up on the two other blogs. I have seen referrals to both of them earlier, but haven't gotten around to them yet. I figured that Jacob had to be a Dane with those surnames.

I am definitely more reassured that it is possible know.. There is just a lot of unclear stuff, since we really can't compare our situations to MMM and the other guys. But I guess I am in no rush since I just have to focus on paying out my debt at the moment.
I can see you have asked a lot of the same questions though. Did you ever find out how to invest your savings?

LSK

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2015, 06:40:24 AM »
I think I may have written something about it under the Investment subsection or on Jcollinsnh, but anyways, at the moment we're using "Månedsopsparing" via Nordnet to invest in Sparinvests Globale aktier min. risiko. That saves you the fees of buying, plus it's the closest equivalent of Vanguards VTI that we can get, without being subject to the unfavourable taxation scheme that just buying VTI EFTs would fall under.
We do spice it up with the C20 index as well, but it's at something along the times of 95% Global to %5 C20.

I am constantly on the look-out for a better alternative, but have yet to find it. Also I haven't found any yet that have the time and math skills to be able to calculate how much more VTI have to outperform Sparinvests Global, for it to be preferable to pick VTI ETFs over the danish fund under the current taxation rules. But should you dig up some information on this, be sure to let us all know :-)

ender

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Re: Going for FI with the highest taxes in the world - Denmark
« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2015, 07:27:56 AM »
Yes, that is another thing we have in many northern european countries. 5 weeks paid vacation + 5 x xtra free vacation days. Also a 37 hour workweek (norm here) and a guaranteed income if we loose our job (that you can live on, if your are a mustachian).

For what it's worth, a lot of folks in the USA would probably be more than happy to have this as their working career for 20 years if it meant working quite a few more years...