Go Curry Cracker (Jeremy and Winnie) updates?

[afox]

Part of the Frugalwoods reticence may have been caused by the fact that Nate was pulling down huge bucks...working for a nonprofit.

If he's making that kind of money, what insane amounts of money are the higher-ups making? He may have been contractually obligated not to reveal his salary, particularly on a public blog. If so, why kill the Golden Goose?
...

Non-profit leaders can earn millions per year, particularly non-profit hospital/healthcare systems.  Some outfit called Sentara Healthcare paid their CEO $33 million last year.  I suppose the rest of executive leadership there scrimps by on $5-10 million per year.

This is why I don't donate to "non-profits". Yeah they are non-profit after they pay themselves, any company can be a non-profit if it just pays its employees more. Its really the mission of the organization then that is the defining organizations as non-profit, they are essentially buisnesses with a very odd income (donations).  So much better to overpay someone for some work or donate product or do volunteer work. Giving dollars to organizations with highly compensated employees is for the birds.

[maizefolk]

I agree that the examples where people earn well above the median income before FI and retire to a lifestyle at or above the median are much more prevalent, but I'd hold up Jacob of ERE as an example of a very profoundly influential voice early in the history of this community who really did (and as far as I know still does) live below* the median income of his area both before and after achieving FI.

*On the order of $14,000/year for his household of two in the 2008 bay area (~$21,000/year in today's dollars).

I believe it was $14k per person, or $28k for a household of two. It's still impressive.

There was definitely pushback about the point that he usually talked about his per person budget rather than household budget but the per person (at least as stated in his blog at the time) was definitely $7k/person.

[bacchi]

I agree that the examples where people earn well above the median income before FI and retire to a lifestyle at or above the median are much more prevalent, but I'd hold up Jacob of ERE as an example of a very profoundly influential voice early in the history of this community who really did (and as far as I know still does) live below* the median income of his area both before and after achieving FI.

*On the order of $14,000/year for his household of two in the 2008 bay area (~$21,000/year in today's dollars).

I believe it was $14k per person, or $28k for a household of two. It's still impressive.

There was definitely pushback about the point that he usually talked about his per person budget rather than household budget but the per person (at least as stated in his blog at the time) was definitely $7k/person.

Ah, you're right. I always doubled his budget whenever I read a post about it.

[GilesMM]

It's not talked about that much but precious few FIRE influencers (finfluencers?) live below the median of their area. Let's review.

MMM + wife were making roughly 200k in 2007, which CPI adjusts to 300k today (!!). The much-vaunted MMM household spending target of 25k in 2010 CPI adjusts to about 36k today, plus imputed rent of a house in longmont (2k/mo) is a realistic $60k of income. There's also that rental house they had for a while. That's at or higher than the median household income in Colorado.

Root of Good maxed out an income of roughly 120k in 2011 or 2012, which CPI adjusts to $170k today, in North Carolina. With a spending target of 40k (even today!) and imputed rent of a paid off house in NC (2k/mo minimum) that's a $65k of income. Median household income in NC is $62k.

Go Curry Cracker gives fewer income details but he was making a good tech salary during his working years, their blog income has been pretty higher, and he's had no qualms about adjusting his lifestyle to match his assets.

The Mad Fientist was making a software salary, had no kids, and his wife kept working. WifeFI.

RetireBy40 made tech salary and also had a wife continuing to work.

1500 Days has a recklessly volatile portfolio, got lucky in a lot of ways, and definitely spends a median+ household income.

Millennial-Revolution, despite my distaste for their blog, might be one of the few finfluencers who actually live a true below-median-household-income lifestyle. But they also pay for it - no house, no car, no pets, no possessions that don't fit in a suitcase.

It's the dirty little FIRE secret: everybody brags about their frugality but in reality the most common situation is someone making 3x the median salary of their area, living on 1.1x the median salary, and banking the rest. That's a 60+% savings rate, and provides them with a median standard of living after retiring.

The real genius of the FIRE principles is the demonstrable benefit of making modest lifestyle concessions allowing astute investing that provides a snowball effect far bigger than a layperson would ever suspect. However, to save money you need to make money, the more the better (shocking!).

Someone should do a reality show and put all these nuts on there together and let them battle out who is legit and who is full of nonsense.

[Midwest_Handlebar]

It's not talked about that much but precious few FIRE influencers (finfluencers?) live below the median of their area. Let's review.

MMM + wife were making roughly 200k in 2007, which CPI adjusts to 300k today (!!). The much-vaunted MMM household spending target of 25k in 2010 CPI adjusts to about 36k today, plus imputed rent of a house in longmont (2k/mo) is a realistic $60k of income. There's also that rental house they had for a while. That's at or higher than the median household income in Colorado.

Root of Good maxed out an income of roughly 120k in 2011 or 2012, which CPI adjusts to $170k today, in North Carolina. With a spending target of 40k (even today!) and imputed rent of a paid off house in NC (2k/mo minimum) that's a $65k of income. Median household income in NC is $62k.

Go Curry Cracker gives fewer income details but he was making a good tech salary during his working years, their blog income has been pretty higher, and he's had no qualms about adjusting his lifestyle to match his assets.

The Mad Fientist was making a software salary, had no kids, and his wife kept working. WifeFI.

RetireBy40 made tech salary and also had a wife continuing to work.

1500 Days has a recklessly volatile portfolio, got lucky in a lot of ways, and definitely spends a median+ household income.

Millennial-Revolution, despite my distaste for their blog, might be one of the few finfluencers who actually live a true below-median-household-income lifestyle. But they also pay for it - no house, no car, no pets, no possessions that don't fit in a suitcase.

It's the dirty little FIRE secret: everybody brags about their frugality but in reality the most common situation is someone making 3x the median salary of their area, living on 1.1x the median salary, and banking the rest. That's a 60+% savings rate, and provides them with a median standard of living after retiring.

The real genius of the FIRE principles is the demonstrable benefit of making modest lifestyle concessions allowing astute investing that provides a snowball effect far bigger than a layperson would ever suspect. However, to save money you need to make money, the more the better (shocking!).

Someone should do a reality show and put all these nuts on there together and let them battle out who is legit and who is full of nonsense.

What makes these people noteworthy is not their frugality, although most were objectively quite frugal in the beginning of their FIRE journey and only expanded their lifestyles after they were FIRE, but their delayed gratification even when they made good money.

Most consumers in the US spend the vast majority of the money they make, no matter what their income level is. You make more, you spend more. These people were able to make more and not inflate their lifestyles for 5-10 years to build up a stash. Your savings rate is the only thing that matters however you get there.

[Metalcat]

It's not talked about that much but precious few FIRE influencers (finfluencers?) live below the median of their area. Let's review.

MMM + wife were making roughly 200k in 2007, which CPI adjusts to 300k today (!!). The much-vaunted MMM household spending target of 25k in 2010 CPI adjusts to about 36k today, plus imputed rent of a house in longmont (2k/mo) is a realistic $60k of income. There's also that rental house they had for a while. That's at or higher than the median household income in Colorado.

Root of Good maxed out an income of roughly 120k in 2011 or 2012, which CPI adjusts to $170k today, in North Carolina. With a spending target of 40k (even today!) and imputed rent of a paid off house in NC (2k/mo minimum) that's a $65k of income. Median household income in NC is $62k.

Go Curry Cracker gives fewer income details but he was making a good tech salary during his working years, their blog income has been pretty higher, and he's had no qualms about adjusting his lifestyle to match his assets.

The Mad Fientist was making a software salary, had no kids, and his wife kept working. WifeFI.

RetireBy40 made tech salary and also had a wife continuing to work.

1500 Days has a recklessly volatile portfolio, got lucky in a lot of ways, and definitely spends a median+ household income.

Millennial-Revolution, despite my distaste for their blog, might be one of the few finfluencers who actually live a true below-median-household-income lifestyle. But they also pay for it - no house, no car, no pets, no possessions that don't fit in a suitcase.

It's the dirty little FIRE secret: everybody brags about their frugality but in reality the most common situation is someone making 3x the median salary of their area, living on 1.1x the median salary, and banking the rest. That's a 60+% savings rate, and provides them with a median standard of living after retiring.

The real genius of the FIRE principles is the demonstrable benefit of making modest lifestyle concessions allowing astute investing that provides a snowball effect far bigger than a layperson would ever suspect. However, to save money you need to make money, the more the better (shocking!).

Someone should do a reality show and put all these nuts on there together and let them battle out who is legit and who is full of nonsense.

What makes these people noteworthy is not their frugality, although most were objectively quite frugal in the beginning of their FIRE journey and only expanded their lifestyles after they were FIRE, but their delayed gratification even when they made good money.

Most consumers in the US spend the vast majority of the money they make, no matter what their income level is. You make more, you spend more. These people were able to make more and not inflate their lifestyles for 5-10 years to build up a stash. Your savings rate is the only thing that matters however you get there.

A lot of them are also quite transparent about this as well.

MMM wrote multiple times that he feels his spending lifestyle is highly luxurious and absolutely not extreme. His points were that a luxurious middle class lifestyle can be purchased quite easily for a lot less than many people spend to live the same quality of life.

He also makes the point that a focus on frugality can often improve your quality of life because often free/cheap options are more active and fun than their expensive counterparts.

It's when people say out of touch or misleading things that people get put off, which like FW, MMM has absolutely been guilty of doing himself.

It's hard to be a lifestyle/financial guru and strike the right balance of transparency, honesty, social awareness, while not alienating your audience.

Some like MMM take in some of the criticism and try to adjust to some degree, some like FW seem to just pull back, some like FS just double the fuck down and basically become epic trolls.

There's a good reason why the majority of the successful frugality blogs are from high earners though, and that's because the high earners have the more exceptional stories. There are plenty of low income folks out there being frugal as hell, and a bunch of them writing about it, but those writers aren't going to become famous.

The high earners get the most attention because of MMM's whole point, that you *can* live an enviably wonderful quality of life while saving a ton of your income if you make enough money.

He points out that for lower income folks, frugality is even more important, but the outcomes are less enviable, so that's not what gets national headlines and millions of readers.

The frugality/FIRE blogs that succeed are from high income folks who spend a fair amount not because that's what matters most, but because those are the blogs that folks find most entertaining to read.

[nick663]

1500 Days has a recklessly volatile portfolio, got lucky in a lot of ways, and definitely spends a median+ household income.

IIRC Mindy also started working again around the time Carl retired and they have continued to DIY rehab/flip houses in retirement.  They were on Ramit's show earlier this year and it was pretty interesting.

It's not talked about that much but precious few FIRE influencers (finfluencers?) live below the median of their area. Let's review.

MMM + wife were making roughly 200k in 2007, which CPI adjusts to 300k today (!!). The much-vaunted MMM household spending target of 25k in 2010 CPI adjusts to about 36k today, plus imputed rent of a house in longmont (2k/mo) is a realistic $60k of income. There's also that rental house they had for a while. That's at or higher than the median household income in Colorado.

Root of Good maxed out an income of roughly 120k in 2011 or 2012, which CPI adjusts to $170k today, in North Carolina. With a spending target of 40k (even today!) and imputed rent of a paid off house in NC (2k/mo minimum) that's a $65k of income. Median household income in NC is $62k.

Go Curry Cracker gives fewer income details but he was making a good tech salary during his working years, their blog income has been pretty higher, and he's had no qualms about adjusting his lifestyle to match his assets.

The Mad Fientist was making a software salary, had no kids, and his wife kept working. WifeFI.

RetireBy40 made tech salary and also had a wife continuing to work.

1500 Days has a recklessly volatile portfolio, got lucky in a lot of ways, and definitely spends a median+ household income.

Millennial-Revolution, despite my distaste for their blog, might be one of the few finfluencers who actually live a true below-median-household-income lifestyle. But they also pay for it - no house, no car, no pets, no possessions that don't fit in a suitcase.

It's the dirty little FIRE secret: everybody brags about their frugality but in reality the most common situation is someone making 3x the median salary of their area, living on 1.1x the median salary, and banking the rest. That's a 60+% savings rate, and provides them with a median standard of living after retiring.

The real genius of the FIRE principles is the demonstrable benefit of making modest lifestyle concessions allowing astute investing that provides a snowball effect far bigger than a layperson would ever suspect. However, to save money you need to make money, the more the better (shocking!).

Someone should do a reality show and put all these nuts on there together and let them battle out who is legit and who is full of nonsense.

What makes these people noteworthy is not their frugality, although most were objectively quite frugal in the beginning of their FIRE journey and only expanded their lifestyles after they were FIRE, but their delayed gratification even when they made good money.

Most consumers in the US spend the vast majority of the money they make, no matter what their income level is. You make more, you spend more. These people were able to make more and not inflate their lifestyles for 5-10 years to build up a stash. Your savings rate is the only thing that matters however you get there.

The interesting part is the same delayed gratification that allowed them to reach FIRE quickly has resulted in most of them sitting on huge nest eggs that they cannot bring themselves to spend.  Frugality is great but at some point you shouldn't spend days DIYing a project that you do not enjoy.

[Retire-Canada]

The interesting part is the same delayed gratification that allowed them to reach FIRE quickly has resulted in most of them sitting on huge nest eggs that they cannot bring themselves to spend.  Frugality is great but at some point you shouldn't spend days DIYing a project that you do not enjoy.

At least the MMM version of frugality is about spending less and enjoying your life more. If you feel hard done by in some aspect of your life by your "frugal" aspirations it's really worth taking a look at that and seeing what's wrong that can be improved. If you are not enjoying most/a lot of what you do voluntarily than it's time for a change. If there is some occasional thing that's not fun I'd just harden up and get it taken care of.

In that context if you end up with a pile of money beyond what you planed on having there isn't some pent up urge to spend it you need to fulfill.

[Metalcat]

The interesting part is the same delayed gratification that allowed them to reach FIRE quickly has resulted in most of them sitting on huge nest eggs that they cannot bring themselves to spend.  Frugality is great but at some point you shouldn't spend days DIYing a project that you do not enjoy.

At least the MMM version of frugality is about spending less and enjoying your life more. If you feel hard done by in some aspect of your life by your "frugal" aspirations it's really worth taking a look at that and seeing what's wrong that can be improved. If you are not enjoying most/a lot of what you do voluntarily than it's time for a change. If there is some occasional thing that's not fun I'd just harden up and get it taken care of.

In that context if you end up with a pile of money beyond what you planed on having there isn't some pent up urge to spend it you need to fulfill.

Yeah, it's always been a major part of the messaging that it's all.about quality of life, the emphasis is always on being frugal, not cheap.

If you hate certain DIY jobs and have a giant pile of money, then DIYing yourself into misery is being cheap, not frugal.

If your money saving lifestyle is making you rich but miserable, you're doing something very wrong.

[ender]

Also MMM's target audience when he was first blogging was absolutely people making middle class and above incomes.

While still relevant, it was not remotely targeted towards people making below average incomes.

[chasesfish]

@VanillaGorilla - I appreciate the mention...

I've been a long time follower of a bunch of the bloggers, have befriended a few of them (or friends of friends), and it's an interesting discussion here.

- I put MR in the camp of Ramit Sethi on home ownership.   It's a combination of the cities they started in (Toronto and NY) being so unreasonable, it created this cult like hatred towards ownership.   Then it kind of...becomes their thing.    Compare that with JL Collins who doesn't like the economics of ownership, but understands consumption and owns one house and will likely own his second soon.

- Yes, FIRE is disproportionately skewered towards high income jobs that bring limited satisfaction, like coding and finance.  My spouse described my job as "punching a bunch of things into a computer then...money!" and never understood why it paid 2x-3x more than her eight years of college to learn how to save animal's lives.

- In Carl's defense, for as insane as his portfolio is, they are mostly FI on the non-Tesla investments.   Those were mostly $10,000 to $25,000 investments in 2014.   The insane part is he doubled down late last year and won't sell that portion.   Mindy also started making stupid money, not as the part time Bigger Pockets podcast person, but as a real estate agent around there and knowing so many people relocating to Longmont.    They're just in the camp of 3x FI at this point and the reckless investments are all extra.

- I was never much of a reader of Jeremy, mainly because he's jokingly known as "Go Commie Cracker" in certain circles.  Just a weird semi-political personality now, he earned his money, sits in a seven figure house in Sacramento, then puts out far left stuff on twitter and lets ghostwriters handle the blog.   Nothing against that if it's your thing, but there's a limit to what I'll consume if you mix politics and money.   Same applies to that former blog Our Next Life, it really went off the rails and it turns out they made super high incomes as political consultants.   

- As a side note, Nate from Frugalwoods didn't work for a real "not for profit", he was an executive for Act Blue, which somehow has 501c3 status as the IT backbone/fundraising arm of the DNC.   Unlike others though, I never found Frugalwoods to rub their political idology into others.   


There are some great original FIRE bloggers that are genuine and great follows.  Justin at Root of Good, Doug @ The Military Guide, and Karsten Jeske immediately come to mind.   

[chasesfish]

Part of the Frugalwoods reticence may have been caused by the fact that Nate was pulling down huge bucks...working for a nonprofit.

If he's making that kind of money, what insane amounts of money are the higher-ups making? He may have been contractually obligated not to reveal his salary, particularly on a public blog. If so, why kill the Golden Goose?

This came to a head when the book was published.

I still maintain that living as frugally as they did once they started making big money took extraordinary amounts of self-discipline. I find that admirable. The derision they face seems unwarranted. They avoided hedonistic adaption. Isn't that a key tenet of  MMM?

This and the "Work Optional" Lady had the same issues.

They made stupidly high incomes working for arms of the Democratic National Committee then try to come off as moderate income professionals.    There's stupidly high incomes in lobbying, fundraising, and winning elections.   Reminds me of the biography of Alan Mulally, who saved Ford in 2011.  Said he made more money as a K-Street lawyer in the 80s than he did as Ford CEO.

[chasesfish]

Hello MMM forum!  This is a hail mary, but I was wondering if anyone knows anything about why GoCurryCracker stopped posting abruptly after the last post (Getting Lucky) on July 28th?  They usually post at least monthly and this is also typically a hot time for blog income as well as their year end tax planning.

I can speculate, but maybe someone knows them in person or is in contact with them behind the scenes?  Fingers crossed they are just busy in the same sense than Pete is and have put the blog on the back burner...

Jeremy's ghostwriter quit or it no longer was profitable to employ them to run the blog.  Income from that format are on the decline.  I have it from a good source he hasn't really been the writer for a while.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Hello MMM forum!  This is a hail mary, but I was wondering if anyone knows anything about why GoCurryCracker stopped posting abruptly after the last post (Getting Lucky) on July 28th?  They usually post at least monthly and this is also typically a hot time for blog income as well as their year end tax planning.

I can speculate, but maybe someone knows them in person or is in contact with them behind the scenes?  Fingers crossed they are just busy in the same sense than Pete is and have put the blog on the back burner...

Jeremy's ghostwriter quit or it no longer was profitable to employ them to run the blog.  Income from that format are on the decline.  I have it from a good source he hasn't really been the writer for a while.

Thanks for weighing in Chasesfish.  I knew GCC had paid 'guest posts' (that are clearly disclosed, such as this latest one was).  I thought the other 'by Go Curry Cracker' posts were all him...

[Dicey]

...I knew GCC had paid 'guest posts' (that are clearly disclosed, such as this latest one was).  I thought the other 'by Go Curry Cracker' posts were all him...

Ugh! This thing looks like, "I'm getting paid to write about this 'free' trip, so I better take pictures of absolutely everything." Barf.
I stopped reading the text when I got to the part about the "1,0000" square foot room.

No wonder GCC has dropped off my reading list.

[AnotherEngineer]

It's not talked about that much but precious few FIRE influencers (finfluencers?) live below the median of their area. Let's review.

Root of Good maxed out an income of roughly 120k in 2011 or 2012, which CPI adjusts to $170k today, in North Carolina. With a spending target of 40k (even today!) and imputed rent of a paid off house in NC (2k/mo minimum) that's a $65k of income. Median household income in NC is $62k.

I 100% agree with your premise that it is easier and more interesting to FIRE when making a lot of income and many folks after 10 years FIRE have either too much money, a new interest in work (or their spouse...I'm a future WifeFI), or something else. However, these folks are still living very counterculturally and have a lot of innovative and helpful things to share, even if they didn't get there on substitute teacher salaries. I'd love to have more moderate income examples.

I might quibble about Root of Good's expenses here. His $40k budget includes two kids taking college classes and substantial world travel with a family of five. That is very noteworthy! And the old imputed rent...very important to consider, but the story there is that they bought a small, cheap house a long time ago and have stayed in it and not had lifestyle inflation (I'd say their kitchen could use an update!). If you want to attribute $2k in imputed rent, fine, but you could instead use a $600??? mortgage payment if they had kept their 30 year mortgage.

But your point remains that from some perspective, these folks are only spending how "the other half lives".

@VanillaGorilla

- I was never much of a reader of Jeremy, mainly because he's jokingly known as "Go Commie Cracker" in certain circles.  Just a weird semi-political personality now, he earned his money, sits in a seven figure house in Sacramento, then puts out far left stuff on twitter and lets ghostwriters handle the blog.   Nothing against that if it's your thing, but there's a limit to what I'll consume if you mix politics and money. 

There are some great original FIRE bloggers that are genuine and great follows.  Justin at Root of Good, Doug @ The Military Guide, and Karsten Jeske immediately come to mind.

Like I posted a week or two ago, I think we can extract what value we can from these blogs and ignore the rest. GCC,  for example, has some great "run the numbers" articles on foundational topics (Roth, 529, tax avoidance) from like 2015. He is a bit confrontational on twitter. He is also clearly running out of ideas/interest in the blog. He and others have turned the corner a bit into running their blogs like a business (likely from revenue declining from traditional approaches).

Do we demand altruism? Should they cover their webhosting costs? I would say that this doesn't compromise their blog necessarily (there are certainly blogs it has!), especially their earlier stuff written when they were going through it...if the numbers check out and apply to you! Start a new blog at the beginning, not the end!

And I approve of your recommendations for earnest writers. ERN loses me all the time, but it is nice to have a real pro in the space.

[AnotherEngineer]

...I knew GCC had paid 'guest posts' (that are clearly disclosed, such as this latest one was).  I thought the other 'by Go Curry Cracker' posts were all him...

Ugh! This thing looks like, "I'm getting paid to write about this 'free' trip, so I better take pictures of absolutely everything." Barf.
I stopped reading the text when I got to the part about the "1,0000" square foot room.

No wonder GCC has dropped off my reading list.

I still check his blog, but I have been disappointed for years because his old stuff has been so valuable to me. That one is particularly egregious and not relevant to the original spirit of the blog. But also he also doesn't owe me anything.

His most recent article, from 5 months ago, had a bit of the old break out the Excel in it. https://www.gocurrycracker.com/getting-lucky

[tj]

Part of the Frugalwoods reticence may have been caused by the fact that Nate was pulling down huge bucks...working for a nonprofit.

If he's making that kind of money, what insane amounts of money are the higher-ups making? He may have been contractually obligated not to reveal his salary, particularly on a public blog. If so, why kill the Golden Goose?

This came to a head when the book was published.

I still maintain that living as frugally as they did once they started making big money took extraordinary amounts of self-discipline. I find that admirable. The derision they face seems unwarranted. They avoided hedonistic adaption. Isn't that a key tenet of  MMM?

This and the "Work Optional" Lady had the same issues.

They made stupidly high incomes working for arms of the Democratic National Committee then try to come off as moderate income professionals.    There's stupidly high incomes in lobbying, fundraising, and winning elections.   Reminds me of the biography of Alan Mulally, who saved Ford in 2011.  Said he made more money as a K-Street lawyer in the 80s than he did as Ford CEO.

Yeah - that all seemed very sad. It almost felt like she started that blog to land book and speaker deals - not dissimilar to what politicians do after they are "out of office"! And then after she retired, it seemed like she without hesitation crapped all over the FIRE community which made her internet famous.

[tj]

There are some great original FIRE bloggers that are genuine and great follows.  Justin at Root of Good, Doug @ The Military Guide, and Karsten Jeske immediately come to mind.

Is @Nords  even still affiliated with The Military Guide? I know he had sold it and re-acquired at least once.  I know he's still writing at militaryfinancialindependence.com - including a recent excellent post on 4% rule. He also continues to help military folk in different forums/Reddit/Facebook after all these years - definitely someone who seems happy to to help out countless others "for free".

[Dicey]

There are some great original FIRE bloggers that are genuine and great follows.  Justin at Root of Good, Doug @ The Military Guide, and Karsten Jeske immediately come to mind.

Is @Nords  even still affiliated with The Military Guide? I know he had sold it and re-acquired at least once.  I know he's still writing at militaryfinancialindependence.com - including a recent excellent post on 4% rule. He also continues to help military folk in different forums/Reddit/Facebook after all these years - definitely someone who seems happy to to help out countless others "for free".

Dude's a mensch. I have to answer quickly, because he's sure to respond to your batsignal in a heartbeat.

ETA #1: It's early in Hawaii. He's probably out surfing.

ETA#: Assuming you're asking questions he's willing to answer. Still a major mensch whether he answers or not.

[VanillaGorilla]

I might quibble about Root of Good's expenses here. His $40k budget includes two kids taking college classes and substantial world travel with a family of five. That is very noteworthy! And the old imputed rent...very important to consider, but the story there is that they bought a small, cheap house a long time ago and have stayed in it and not had lifestyle inflation (I'd say their kitchen could use an update!). If you want to attribute $2k in imputed rent, fine, but you could instead use a $600??? mortgage payment if they had kept their 30 year mortgage.

Sure, it's easy to quibble about. Official GDP numbers include imputed rent for homeowners, and I think it's fair to include when comparing costs of living. The question is: how much would it cost to reproduce RoG's current lifestyle for a 'normal person'? You'd need to rent his house and spend as much as he does, and pay taxes on all that income. So say, 2k per month in rent, and 40k of spending, and 15% of taxes, so ($24,000+$40,000)/0.85 = $75k per year. A renter would have to earn 75k to live precisely the same lifestyle as RoG.

I know he's even written an article - years ago - making this point. Ah yes - found it: https://rootofgood.com/early-retirement-40000-per-year/

These calculations really emphasize how powerful homeownership is...but that's a different discussion.

[AnotherEngineer]

I might quibble about Root of Good's expenses here. His $40k budget includes two kids taking college classes and substantial world travel with a family of five. That is very noteworthy! And the old imputed rent...very important to consider, but the story there is that they bought a small, cheap house a long time ago and have stayed in it and not had lifestyle inflation (I'd say their kitchen could use an update!). If you want to attribute $2k in imputed rent, fine, but you could instead use a $600??? mortgage payment if they had kept their 30 year mortgage.

Sure, it's easy to quibble about. Official GDP numbers include imputed rent for homeowners, and I think it's fair to include when comparing costs of living. The question is: how much would it cost to reproduce RoG's current lifestyle for a 'normal person'? You'd need to rent his house and spend as much as he does, and pay taxes on all that income. So say, 2k per month in rent, and 40k of spending, and 15% of taxes, so ($24,000+$40,000)/0.85 = $75k per year. A renter would have to earn 75k to live precisely the same lifestyle as RoG.

I know he's even written an article - years ago - making this point. Ah yes - found it: https://rootofgood.com/early-retirement-40000-per-year/

These calculations really emphasize how powerful homeownership is...but that's a different discussion.

We are arguing different sides of the same coin here. Your post what about how much FI bloggers spend (or saved to pay off their mortgage). I think their actual costs/spending decisions is more important, emphasizing they bought small/cheap and haven't inflated their lifestyle. The $75k number is also true, but is as much a reflection on Raleigh real estate and folks running their own numbers than your point about bloggers being big spenders. RoG is more on the ERE side of the scale for housing for bloggers.

[ChpBstrd]

I might quibble about Root of Good's expenses here. His $40k budget includes two kids taking college classes and substantial world travel with a family of five. That is very noteworthy! And the old imputed rent...very important to consider, but the story there is that they bought a small, cheap house a long time ago and have stayed in it and not had lifestyle inflation (I'd say their kitchen could use an update!). If you want to attribute $2k in imputed rent, fine, but you could instead use a $600??? mortgage payment if they had kept their 30 year mortgage.

Sure, it's easy to quibble about. Official GDP numbers include imputed rent for homeowners, and I think it's fair to include when comparing costs of living. The question is: how much would it cost to reproduce RoG's current lifestyle for a 'normal person'? You'd need to rent his house and spend as much as he does, and pay taxes on all that income. So say, 2k per month in rent, and 40k of spending, and 15% of taxes, so ($24,000+$40,000)/0.85 = $75k per year. A renter would have to earn 75k to live precisely the same lifestyle as RoG.

I know he's even written an article - years ago - making this point. Ah yes - found it: https://rootofgood.com/early-retirement-40000-per-year/

These calculations really emphasize how powerful homeownership is...but that's a different discussion.

The RoG's became both fully retired in 2016 in Raleigh, NC with a net worth of probably around $1.5M I think (last published NW I saw was 2014, correct me if I'm wrong).

At that time, per Zillow, a home could be purchased for about $231k and the average hourly wage per the BLS was $24.23, or about $50k per year. So housing cost about 4.58 years of typical wages.

By 2022, Raleigh houses were averaging $388,639 and the hourly wage had risen to $30.05, or about $62,500. So housing cost about 6.22 years of typical wages.

So these are reasons to maybe bump up the $40k number, or not consider Raleigh, NC as the bargain it used to be.

[VanillaGorilla]

Agreed that we're vociferously agreeing!

This is why I miss the awesome FIRE blogs of yore. I remember this RoG chart: https://rootofgood.com/zero-to-millionaire-ten-years/ and feeling like I would never get there. I'm past "RoG FIRE" now. Time flies and I owe the FI bloggers so much.

[Nords]

... I was wondering if anyone knows anything about why GoCurryCracker stopped posting abruptly after the last post (Getting Lucky) on July 28th? 

I haven’t heard anything new from or about Jeremy or Winnie.  Two young kids, newer house?

I saw her financial advice prices as more of a situation of really not needing the money, but having an answer to people who are looking for financial planning from the author of a popular blog.

I can't remember which financial blogger it was who had a similar philosophy--they didn't have any desire to help people with financial planning, but for a fairly absurd hourly rate they would do it. Maybe JL Collins?

As others have mentioned, that’s Justin McCurry at RootOfGood:
https://rootofgood.com/early-retirement-consulting/
He mentioned this tactic at a CampFI a few years ago, and he was raising is prices to lower demand.  Rich Carey does the same at RichOnMoney.

I’m pretty sure JL Collins might be tempted to try the same financial-planning joke with an autoresponse e-mail, but I watched him talk one-on-one with people at FI Chautauquas for hours.  He has the stamina for it-- I was doing the same routine at the one in Portugal in 2019 and it was absolutely exhausting.

I've been a long time follower of a bunch of the bloggers, have befriended a few of them (or friends of friends), and it's an interesting discussion here.
There are some great original FIRE bloggers that are genuine and great follows.  Justin at Root of Good, Doug @ The Military Guide, and Karsten Jeske immediately come to mind.

Thanks, @chasesfish!

Is @Nords  even still affiliated with The Military Guide?

Here’s the full story from 2022, including a copy of the press release:
https://militaryfinancialindependence.com/2022/03/24/under-new-management-again/

Other details not in that blog post:
In 2013 I “sold” the site to Curtez Riggs in exchange for his very large donation to Wounded Warrior Project.  (At the time Curtez was an Army First Sergeant and now he’s retired from active duty.)  Our handshake deal was that when I wrote a certain number of posts per year then he’d make another large donation to WWP.  That worked out to a good freelance rate at the time.

(Along with wanting to focus on writing instead of running a site, I saw it as a challenge to give away an asset instead of profiting from more money which we did not need.  I didn't even take the income-tax deduction.)

Ryan Guina had also thought about making an offer on The Military Guide, and he mentioned several times over the years how often he’d regretted not moving as fast as Curtez.  Ryan patiently stayed in touch with Curtez.  In 2017 after Curtez retired and started Military Influencer Conference and leveled up to a whole new world of teambuilding, he agreed to sell the site to Ryan. 

Ryan ran the site until late 2019 and then got overtures from a large VA mortgage lender with a non-profit media arm.  Those discussions were interrupted during the pandemic but resumed in 2021. 

The buyer originally only wanted TheMilitaryWallet, but during the due diligence (“Seller will provide all other domain names owned by him or his company”) they realized that Ryan owned the top two military personal finance blogs on the Internet as well as a dozen or so other revenue-earning military sites.  He sold them every URL that they wanted to buy and continues a four-year consulting contract with them (with a salary).  That’s mainly in case the new owner can’t find the passwords or has questions about the code.  The buyer apparently also gets some income-tax deductions by paying Ryan a salary for a few years instead of giving him an extra dumpster of cash.

I don’t know what Ryan plans to do after the four-year contract expires but he has plenty of ideas on how to be responsible for his own entertainment. 

The-Military-Guide now redirects to TheMilitaryWallet.  My byline lives on at TheMilitaryWallet, and I frequently link to some of my posts there.  The new owner had no idea how to handle a founder who was willing to work with them (not for them) so I strolled off to other projects.

We really did part amicably-- they truly had no idea how to work with a guy who insists on writing long-form posts (but only when he has something to say), who doesn’t want an editor, and who won’t subject himself to deadlines.  Maybe one of the buyers will have more questions about financial independence for me someday, but they have plenty of money to buy their own lifestyle consultants. 

A year later they came back to Ryan and said “We want CashMoneyLife too.”  So he sold them that as well.

Ryan has 15 or 16 good years in the Air National Guard.  In early 2023 he mobilized & deployed to a combat zone for a typical ANG period of 3-6 months (I don’t know the details).  He’s also switched ANG units from one in Illinois (with a six-hour one-way commute to drill weekends) for one in Tennessee that’s close to his home.  He’ll probably decide to retire (awaiting pay) at 20 good years.  He’ll start his Reserve pension at age 59 + 6 or 9 months-- IYKYK. 

He and I have talked many times about expanding his lifestyle, but he says he’s good.  He’s starting another military-oriented blog (“Just for fun”) that doesn’t impinge on his non-compete agreement.  I think he’s upgraded his guitar collection in a manner similar to the way I upgrade my longboard & stand-up paddleboard collection.  He and his spouse are also raising two teenagers.

He’ll probably cover most of his spending from his new blog’s revenue, and maybe he’ll spend a little of his assets.  His military pension + blog income will certainly cover their lifestyle.  That’s similar to how ESIMoney covers his spending from real estate syndications and his blog income.  Ryan (and ESI) will continue to give generously through philanthropy and gifting.

I know he's still writing at militaryfinancialindependence.com - including a recent excellent post on 4% rule. He also continues to help military folk in different forums/Reddit/Facebook after all these years - definitely someone who seems happy to to help out countless others "for free".

Yes, and thank you!  Reddit & FB groups are definitely filling more of my time.

I’ve spent most of the last three years writing way more than I ever expected to at Millionaire Money Mentors.  I’ve already written my Millionaire Interview and my three-part Retirement Interview on ESIMoney, and I’ve added a couple of my old sea stories (with a financial twist) to his blog.  Occasionally one of my forum threads turns into a blog post on my site.  I also finished a surprisingly difficult self-inflicted therapy assignment on my site about my time as a submarine inport Ship’s Duty Officer during the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo. 

Some of my sea stories will also live on with Charles Hood (and his brother Frank) at the “Sub Tales” series of books.  If you have any questions about the history & culture of our glamorous submarine lifestyle, you can look them up on Amazon.

I still have a ToDo list:
- Update The Military Guide book for the U.S. military’s new programs,
- Record/publish an audiobook version of The Military Guide,
- Write my next book, probably about life after FI.
- Clean up a couple of smaller writing projects and publish them as 100-page books,
- Record more audio tracks of my blog posts.

For the last three years I’ve spent far more time on spousing, grandparenting, slow travel, home improvement, and surfing. 

In January our daughter, son-in-law, and four-year-old granddaughter will return to Oahu.  He has Navy active-duty orders (possibly his last before moving to the Reserves or Guard), and she’s working part-time remote as a paraplanner for a firm with (mostly) military clients.  Carol and I are attending MilMoneyCon together in Denver at the end of April-- she’s on a panel and I’m in the audience.

My spouse started her Reserve pension in late 2021.  (If you’ve followed my writing over the years, that was not at all in the cards when we reached FI and I retired in 2002.)  We’ve accordingly boosted our gifting & philanthropy as our income grows.  Over the last two decades we’ve consistently spent all of my pension plus spent our assets at the 4% SWR.  Due to our inflation-fighting pensions, we will continue to spend down our assets even faster than the 4% SWR to stay well below the Hawaii estate tax deduction. 

I haven’t written much about that last paragraph here, but I’ll work out that blog post in 2024 after our progeny move back to Oahu.  I’ve written extensively about it on the Millionaire Money Mentors forum and our spend-down plan looks sustainable.

Now that I'm 63 years old I can tackle more fascinating lifestyle subjects like Social Security, Medicare, Tricare For Life, hearing aids (not quite yet), osteoarthritis physical therapy, disability planning, and estate planning.  And more slow travel, plus surfing.  With more grandkid photos.

I know he had sold it and re-acquired at least once.

You might be thinking of J.D. Roth at GetRichSlowly, who sold to Quinstreet in 2009 and bought it back in... 2018?  2019?  Anyway, he just sold it again-- this time to Tom Drake.

Dude's a mensch. I have to answer quickly, because he's sure to respond to your batsignal in a heartbeat.

Thank you, @Dicey!  And I do appreciate the cultural heritage behind that word.

And yes, I have this forum send me an e-mail with my poster name is mentioned.  Otherwise I check it weekly or so for the “military” keyword.

[AnotherEngineer]

Agreed that we're vociferously agreeing!

This is why I miss the awesome FIRE blogs of yore. I remember this RoG chart: https://rootofgood.com/zero-to-millionaire-ten-years/ and feeling like I would never get there. I'm past "RoG FIRE" now. Time flies and I owe the FI bloggers so much.

I point as many people as I can to those old blog posts (and Stock Series, Mad Fientist, classic GCC, etc.) as they are indeed awesome and essential to folks starting out. Those blogs are a lot less interesting now when their authors have figured everything out for 10 years.

[2sk22]

Agreed that we're vociferously agreeing!

This is why I miss the awesome FIRE blogs of yore. I remember this RoG chart: https://rootofgood.com/zero-to-millionaire-ten-years/ and feeling like I would never get there. I'm past "RoG FIRE" now. Time flies and I owe the FI bloggers so much.

I point as many people as I can to those old blog posts (and Stock Series, Mad Fientist, classic GCC, etc.) as they are indeed awesome and essential to folks starting out. Those blogs are a lot less interesting now when their authors have figured everything out for 10 years.

There's only so much you can write about FI. Jason Zweig, who wrote the personal finance column at the Wall Street Journal once said in an interview something to the effect of "you basically have to keep writing about the same twenty topics in personal finance and somehow make it look fresh and get it past the editor" 😀

The other thing about diligently following FI principles is that just the effects of compounding become astounding over the long haul. Many of these bloggers may have reached that stage and just given up writing.

[ChpBstrd]

Agreed that we're vociferously agreeing!

This is why I miss the awesome FIRE blogs of yore. I remember this RoG chart: https://rootofgood.com/zero-to-millionaire-ten-years/ and feeling like I would never get there. I'm past "RoG FIRE" now. Time flies and I owe the FI bloggers so much.

I point as many people as I can to those old blog posts (and Stock Series, Mad Fientist, classic GCC, etc.) as they are indeed awesome and essential to folks starting out. Those blogs are a lot less interesting now when their authors have figured everything out for 10 years.

There's only so much you can write about FI. Jason Zweig, who wrote the personal finance column at the Wall Street Journal once said in an interview something to the effect of "you basically have to keep writing about the same twenty topics in personal finance and somehow make it look fresh and get it past the editor" 😀

The other thing about diligently following FI principles is that just the effects of compounding become astounding over the long haul. Many of these bloggers may have reached that stage and just given up writing.

I thought about starting a FIRE blog because I'm always making interesting connections, considering risk and opportunity in unique ways, getting philosophical, and thinking about the connections between macroeconomics and our concerns about portfolio survival. I also think a lot about the psychology of all this - the fear and the FOMO - and the attempt to make a rational decision when it's literally a portion of your life at stake. Econ and psych were my college majors, and not much has changed.

Plus I love to write. Hence my painfully long posts here.

In the end I figured I didn't have time to do a good job of it. I'd probably never earn back the hosting fees in ad revenue, blogs in general are going extinct, and sitting all day in front of a computer was what I was trying to get away from! I simply lack the narcissism to overcome these barriers.

Still, I'm surprised some of these more successful bloggers essentially just quit rather than opening up their blogs to guest posts. Blogging either burns people out or leaves them with an impression that it's a waste of time. That's too bad because more and more of the internet is becoming these clickbait enthusiastic people on YouTube or TikTok who are slumming for clicks. There's less and less authenticity or helpfulness out there.

[chasesfish]

Justin wrote this great article about his $40,000 lifestyle really being closer to $100,000.

I've visited Justin at his home house, the reality is most people making his income wouldn't have bought and stayed in a gentrifying area.   He purchased a starter home for +/-100k coming out of the GFC and it's now probably in the $300,000s.   He makes a ton of decisions others with his (former) income level won't and people get upset about it.

One 15yr old vehicle (until recently), low cost housing, walk/bike places, no restaurants, and an incredible deal hunter on food.  It's a complete game for him.

[tj]

Justin wrote this great article about his $40,000 lifestyle really being closer to $100,000.

I've visited Justin at his home house, the reality is most people making his income wouldn't have bought and stayed in a gentrifying area.   He purchased a starter home for +/-100k coming out of the GFC and it's now probably in the $300,000s.   He makes a ton of decisions others with his (former) income level won't and people get upset about it.

One 15yr old vehicle (until recently), low cost housing, walk/bike places, no restaurants, and an incredible deal hunter on food.  It's a complete game for him.

Yeah - that's the article that I remember! I haven't met him in person (yet), but he's always seemed pretty down to earth to me. He doesn't really participate in forums anymore, certainly not like he did when he was still working, but I think he's still on Twitter.

[Louise]

Justin wrote this great article about his $40,000 lifestyle really being closer to $100,000.

I've visited Justin at his home house, the reality is most people making his income wouldn't have bought and stayed in a gentrifying area.   He purchased a starter home for +/-100k coming out of the GFC and it's now probably in the $300,000s.   He makes a ton of decisions others with his (former) income level won't and people get upset about it.

One 15yr old vehicle (until recently), low cost housing, walk/bike places, no restaurants, and an incredible deal hunter on food.  It's a complete game for him.

I think ROG is my favorite blog. I can appreciate that he and his wife are raising three (college bound) kids and still keep their expenses pretty low. I still reread the Tightwad Gazette for my low income large family fix.

[spartana]

Justin wrote this great article about his $40,000 lifestyle really being closer to $100,000.

I've visited Justin at his home house, the reality is most people making his income wouldn't have bought and stayed in a gentrifying area.   He purchased a starter home for +/-100k coming out of the GFC and it's now probably in the $300,000s.   He makes a ton of decisions others with his (former) income level won't and people get upset about it.

One 15yr old vehicle (until recently), low cost housing, walk/bike places, no restaurants, and an incredible deal hunter on food.  It's a complete game for him.

Yeah - that's the article that I remember! I haven't met him in person (yet), but he's always seemed pretty down to earth to me. He doesn't really participate in forums anymore, certainly not like he did when he was still working, but I think he's still on Twitter.

Ditto for me too. As a FIREee who (voluntarily) chooses to live on a smaller income I really liked how he seemed to live a great life regardless of not spending a huge sum. Seemed like a pretty good lifestyle. And a nice guy who seemed very genuine.

And as always a great post and update from the truly awesome  @Nords!

[chasesfish]

@tj - Your best shot to meet Justin is at CampFI Mid Atlantic that happens around Memorial Day every year.   The organizer comps his ticket in exchange for speaking and it's the one FIREy event that is laid back enough, the right time of year, and close enough to his home.  I spoke a few years ago before moving, I'll eventually get back to one.

[tj]

@tj - Your best shot to meet Justin is at CampFI Mid Atlantic that happens around Memorial Day every year.   The organizer comps his ticket in exchange for speaking and it's the one FIREy event that is laid back enough, the right time of year, and close enough to his home.  I spoke a few years ago before moving, I'll eventually get back to one.

Justin is actually my Facebook friend for quite a few years now - I'm sure if I ever made my way to Raleigh, he'd be down to hang. :)

When I decided to give blogging a go back in 2017, he commented on nearly every post, which was pretty neat.

[Telecaster]

Still, I'm surprised some of these more successful bloggers essentially just quit rather than opening up their blogs to guest posts. Blogging either burns people out or leaves them with an impression that it's a waste of time.

The general arc of FIRE blogs is that the journey is much more interesting than the destination.   When people are working towards FIRE they have a lot to say and share many insights, but once they FIRE the output drops off precipitously.   Same general trend with many posters on the forum.   Once you FIRE, people tend to focus on other aspects of life, which probably don't have much interest to a general audience.   Mad Fientist for example seems interested in working out and writing music.  Great hobbies, but those topics already have their own communities.

[Metalcat]

Still, I'm surprised some of these more successful bloggers essentially just quit rather than opening up their blogs to guest posts. Blogging either burns people out or leaves them with an impression that it's a waste of time.

The general arc of FIRE blogs is that the journey is much more interesting than the destination.   When people are working towards FIRE they have a lot to say and share many insights, but once they FIRE the output drops off precipitously.   Same general trend with many posters on the forum.   Once you FIRE, people tend to focus on other aspects of life, which probably don't have much interest to a general audience.   Mad Fientist for example seems interested in working out and writing music.  Great hobbies, but those topics already have their own communities.

I think it's also the universal nature of blogs that people kind of run out of things to say.

[FireLane]

On the topic of FIRE blogs, I like A Purple Life:

https://apurplelife.com/

She retired young on a lean-FIRE budget. Now she's a nomad traveling the world and relying on geographic arbitrage. It's a riskier plan than I'd be comfortable with, but to each his or her own. Plus, she's having a hell of a good time.

She's also kept updating after quitting her job, unlike many FIRE bloggers who fell off the face of the earth. So if you want to read new stuff, there's that.

[chasesfish]

Still, I'm surprised some of these more successful bloggers essentially just quit rather than opening up their blogs to guest posts. Blogging either burns people out or leaves them with an impression that it's a waste of time.

The general arc of FIRE blogs is that the journey is much more interesting than the destination.   When people are working towards FIRE they have a lot to say and share many insights, but once they FIRE the output drops off precipitously.   Same general trend with many posters on the forum.   Once you FIRE, people tend to focus on other aspects of life, which probably don't have much interest to a general audience.   Mad Fientist for example seems interested in working out and writing music.  Great hobbies, but those topics already have their own communities.

This is what happened to mine.  It's still an active blog, but I struggle with "what do I write about" sometime around a year after quitting the job.   It was far more exciting leading up to and shortly after the "moment" that most people can't / won't do.

[tooqk4u22]

Still, I'm surprised some of these more successful bloggers essentially just quit rather than opening up their blogs to guest posts. Blogging either burns people out or leaves them with an impression that it's a waste of time.

The general arc of FIRE blogs is that the journey is much more interesting than the destination.   When people are working towards FIRE they have a lot to say and share many insights, but once they FIRE the output drops off precipitously.   Same general trend with many posters on the forum.   Once you FIRE, people tend to focus on other aspects of life, which probably don't have much interest to a general audience.   Mad Fientist for example seems interested in working out and writing music.  Great hobbies, but those topics already have their own communities.

This is what happened to mine.  It's still an active blog, but I struggle with "what do I write about" sometime around a year after quitting the job.   It was far more exciting leading up to and shortly after the "moment" that most people can't / won't do.

There could be another explanation, which is when a high earning megacorp person is spending 10 hours at work on a computer there just happens to be some time to also type away at a blog dreaming about FIRE and looking busy.   

Then when freedom is achieved sitting at a computer foe several hours may become less appealing.

[tj]

On the topic of FIRE blogs, I like A Purple Life:

https://apurplelife.com/

She retired young on a lean-FIRE budget. Now she's a nomad traveling the world and relying on geographic arbitrage. It's a riskier plan than I'd be comfortable with, but to each his or her own. Plus, she's having a hell of a good time.

She's also kept updating after quitting her job, unlike many FIRE bloggers who fell off the face of the earth. So if you want to read new stuff, there's that.

It probably helps that she was able to manufacture some income out of her blog and also that her partner has a remote job.  It is cool that she seems to still have things to say after retiring though.

[Nords]

And as always a great post and update from the truly awesome  @Nords!

Thank you!

@tj - Your best shot to meet Justin is at CampFI Mid Atlantic that happens around Memorial Day every year.   

I can't remember which CampFI Mid-Atlantic I was at-- probably 2018-- when Justin spoke.

As part of his talk, he'd spent the previous days memorizing the name and location of every other attendee there... maybe 50 people?  It was the most impressive mnemonic feat I've seen in years.

She's also kept updating after quitting her job, unlike many FIRE bloggers who fell off the face of the earth. So if you want to read new stuff, there's that.

It probably helps that she was able to manufacture some income out of her blog and also that her partner has a remote job.  It is cool that she seems to still have things to say after retiring though.

She tracks her activities regularly.  When someone asks me what I do all day in FI, I refer them to one of her time-tracking summaries.

She's also someone who, if she ever decided to start a freelancing career, would have no trouble netting six figures annually by the end of the second year.  I see no downside risk to her lifestyle.

Right now I'm staring at four draft blog posts on my monitor, three of them crafted on a forum and just waiting for blogging formatting + snarky images. 

However the North Shore surf is forecast at 22-26 feet from a northwest swell tomorrow morning, which practically guarantees me catching some 10-15 footers at Pua 'Ena Point.  Blog posts will have to wait until after surfing... and ibuprofen... and a nap.

[tj]

She tracks her activities regularly.  When someone asks me what I do all day in FI, I refer them to one of her time-tracking summaries.

She's also someone who, if she ever decided to start a freelancing career, would have no trouble netting six figures annually by the end of the second year.  I see no downside risk to her lifestyle.

I don't remember if it was you or somebody else - but I recall somebody has written that the vast majority of people who can accomplish "4% rule" on their assets and choose to retire presumably have the skills to restart a meaningful earned income if they really need to. It does seem a bit silly that so many people get so afraid of pulling the trigger after reaching that point. The ChooseFI Feds group kills me sometimes - I get that you're giving up "a lot" to not ride it out until the pension starts and the associated retiree health insurance, but the time trade associated with that seems huge.

[2sk22]

There could be another explanation, which is when a high earning megacorp person is spending 10 hours at work on a computer there just happens to be some time to also type away at a blog dreaming about FIRE and looking busy.   

Then when freedom is achieved sitting at a computer foe several hours may become less appealing.

This is true! I thought I would be updating my journal frequently after I retired but it seems more like once in three months. On many days, I do still sit at my computer for  several hours but that is because I enjoy programming 😀

[chasesfish]

@tooqk4u22 - My writing was accelerated for two reasons, I was waiting on a vesting to leave, and my job was more similar to an airline pilot.  Many easy hours with a few critical moments that required focus and decisions.   There was plenty of "smooth sailing" hours.   

@Nords - Enjoy and don't let the current push you into the middle rocks.  Saturday might have been my last paddle out without a wetsuit, now I'm browsing Hawaii dates / flights.

[Nords]

@Nords - Enjoy and don't let the current push you into the middle rocks.  Saturday might have been my last paddle out without a wetsuit, now I'm browsing Hawaii dates / flights.

That's going to be a concern this morning!  And I’m pretty sure wetsuit weather is here now, although it’s just a 2mm jacket for us.

If the wind isn’t too bad then I’ll be at the outer break.  If it turns into paddling practice then I’ll stay at the inner break.  I'm not duck-diving any 20 footers.

See you on Oahu next month?  (You guys might prefer to go to a neighbor island instead.)  Our lives will turn into happy grandparenting chaos on 13 January.

[FireLane]

Since people in this thread were discussing Mrs. Frugalwoods and her uber-pricey consulting business, I thought this was an interesting and relevant tidbit from Purple Life's newest blog post:

https://apurplelife.com/2023/12/05/november-2023-recap/

This month another reader asked me if I offer financial coaching for a fee, which I don’t, but I was honored to be asked...

Then another company wanted me to join a platform where I answer questions for a fee. Is this a new trend? I’ve been getting contacted every month by several companies with this model lately. All different companies with seemingly identical business models.

I commented on how funny it is that she wasn't seeking out opportunities like this, but they keep coming to her. It's like an "Office Space" effect: the less you need to work, the more people want to throw money at you to work for them.

I can imagine a scenario where a FIRE blogger, who had no interest in starting a side hustle initially, keeps getting approached by people who want to pay for financial advice. (Study the successful people and learn their secrets!)

If this happened often enough, I can see how someone might decide to take them up on it. FIRE gives you the luxury of choice, but it's hard to turn down money when people want to give it to you!

[tj]

Since people in this thread were discussing Mrs. Frugalwoods and her uber-pricey consulting business, I thought this was an interesting and relevant tidbit from Purple Life's newest blog post:

https://apurplelife.com/2023/12/05/november-2023-recap/

This month another reader asked me if I offer financial coaching for a fee, which I don’t, but I was honored to be asked...

Then another company wanted me to join a platform where I answer questions for a fee. Is this a new trend? I’ve been getting contacted every month by several companies with this model lately. All different companies with seemingly identical business models.

I commented on how funny it is that she wasn't seeking out opportunities like this, but they keep coming to her. It's like an "Office Space" effect: the less you need to work, the more people want to throw money at you to work for them.

I can imagine a scenario where a FIRE blogger, who had no interest in starting a side hustle initially, keeps getting approached by people who want to pay for financial advice. (Study the successful people and learn their secrets!)

If this happened often enough, I can see how someone might decide to take them up on it. FIRE gives you the luxury of choice, but it's hard to turn down money when people want to give it to you!

I think Justin actually mentions in this recorded video of his Camp FI talk - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ale11_HU3RI - that he started financial consulting for a fee only after a reader of his blog asked him if he does  that.

[bluecollarmusician]

I have been following this thread with interest; though I am not a devoted follower of any specific blog other than MMM and ERE I have been aware of all (well, most) of these others since their inception and have drawn interesting insights from most of them at some point- most had a niche item-- their "usp" that helped get them going.  I also remember when ROG or Mrs. FW and others were posters and contributors here.

I am not sure that I have anything to add other than to say I feel a certain sympathy for those who gain a certain notoriety or success.  Certainly people can be held accountable for their actions, but I think that when you start on a long journey the details of the destination can be very fuzzy. 

I have made a life of monetizing and making a living off my hobbies and artistic pursuits- and fortunately have not had to leave the totality of my performances available for the world to see forever: because that's the thing about blogs, digital content etc.  It follows you around forever- who among us really understood this and it's implications the first time we posted in forum or in a chat?

I consider in my own life my digital contributions to the world, and when I look back at them they are at best random and scattershot snapshots of the moment, and I certainly could not imagine trying tie them all together into some grand unifying/unchanging theory of how I see the world over the last 15 years.  All the folks started in a certain place and landed where they currently are (and are also on their way to somewhere else).  I think it's tough to slam them too much because their worldview doesn't agree with yours- the scales aren't balanced- until all your dirty laundry is out there hanging out for scrutiny.

We can say "well they put it out their for the world to see, so we get to hold them accountable..."  That's true- that's the nature of creating anything- and that's why you have to learn to have a tough skin as a creator.  But I think that the general tone of "yeah but it only works for them because x" is a real mistake.  You run the risk of missing the forest for the trees.

The math on ER and FIRE works on any scale.  And I think that is a really important takeaway.  The industry that has grown up around it: who could have foreseen it? Really- I don't think anyone.  And it's not that I don't think criticism is fair when people's narrative doesn't reflect the real changes that happen in their life or circumstances as they tout a certain brand of freedom (frugal or whatever); it's that I think very often we have a really difficult time seeing our own circumstances from a lot of other people's perspective (especially in real time as things change in ways we never imagined).  I know for myself- even though I recognize that I had a ton of privilege baked into my life and upbringing; I came from a poor community and working class/farming family; i.e. teachers, farmers, builders: so even as my situation has changed over the years, my fundamental world view of myself hasn't changed; and this is why so many people people see themselves a certain way even though that way doesn't really align with how the rest of the world might view it.

I don't know why all the rambling- I guess I feel a certain sympathy for those folks for whom success is both great and terrible.  Most of the time the destination is a far stranger land than we ever expected.  It's become a stock phrase, and thus lost a lot of its meaning:  "What got you here, won't get yout there." So many of us found kindred spirits when we first found our way to these blogs and forums, after years of meandering alone in a world where it was hard to find like minds. Even though as time has gone by a lot of the voices that found megaphones have drifted in different directions... because that's happens, the message still has a lot of value; regardless of "imputed rent" or "they made way more money than I expected", etc.  I find R. Kyosaki to be sort of distasteful, but I have gotten a ton of value out of ideas he found a way to articulate- and I remember something he said about people who say "You can't do that!!" and that was a clue you were on the right track.  So be careful if you catch yourself saying "that won't work" or " you can't do that... " because x, y, or z. 

[bluecollarmusician]

Sure, it's easy to quibble about. Official GDP numbers include imputed rent for homeowners, and I think it's fair to include when comparing costs of living. The question is: how much would it cost to reproduce RoG's current lifestyle for a 'normal person'?

I understand your point, but I think what is missed in this type of analysis is that ROG made choices that are *different* from what this hypothetical "normal" person would. I.e. if they were in same place they were when they bought their house, they would probably do something different (i.e. buy a different location, rent, leverage some other way to make it work.)

I agree with you that most of these lifestyle bloggers use their financial leverage to keep their spend "average" while living "upscale" lives.  But isn't that how it all got popular in the first place? YMOYL and Jacob's ERE carries all the philosophical and math underpinnings you need to make it "work", it's just that it doesn't get sexy to the masses until it looks fancy.  "It's too Extreme" (Is it really?)  Enter MMM and the "I only spend 25k a year and we still feel rich..." Then everyone jumps in and massages the #'s to still claim middle class status while living the life that you want.  And then we all quibble about what their "actual" spend is.  It's a map, with a somewhat changing landscape- following a list hints and tips won't get you there. It's like all those click-bait articles "invest like Warren Buffet"- hopefully everyone knows that just buying the same stocks he has isn't what makes it work; it's the same with many of these folks who have figured out how to manage their lifestyle.  It can work for all of us, we just have to get under the hood and tinker with it a bit.

[Metalcat]

I have been following this thread with interest; though I am not a devoted follower of any specific blog other than MMM and ERE I have been aware of all (well, most) of these others since their inception and have drawn interesting insights from most of them at some point- most had a niche item-- their "usp" that helped get them going.  I also remember when ROG or Mrs. FW and others were posters and contributors here.

I am not sure that I have anything to add other than to say I feel a certain sympathy for those who gain a certain notoriety or success.  Certainly people can be held accountable for their actions, but I think that when you start on a long journey the details of the destination can be very fuzzy. 

I have made a life of monetizing and making a living off my hobbies and artistic pursuits- and fortunately have not had to leave the totality of my performances available for the world to see forever: because that's the thing about blogs, digital content etc.  It follows you around forever- who among us really understood this and it's implications the first time we posted in forum or in a chat?

I consider in my own life my digital contributions to the world, and when I look back at them they are at best random and scattershot snapshots of the moment, and I certainly could not imagine trying tie them all together into some grand unifying/unchanging theory of how I see the world over the last 15 years.  All the folks started in a certain place and landed where they currently are (and are also on their way to somewhere else).  I think it's tough to slam them too much because their worldview doesn't agree with yours- the scales aren't balanced- until all your dirty laundry is out there hanging out for scrutiny.

We can say "well they put it out their for the world to see, so we get to hold them accountable..."  That's true- that's the nature of creating anything- and that's why you have to learn to have a tough skin as a creator.  But I think that the general tone of "yeah but it only works for them because x" is a real mistake.  You run the risk of missing the forest for the trees.

The math on ER and FIRE works on any scale.  And I think that is a really important takeaway.  The industry that has grown up around it: who could have foreseen it? Really- I don't think anyone.  And it's not that I don't think criticism is fair when people's narrative doesn't reflect the real changes that happen in their life or circumstances as they tout a certain brand of freedom (frugal or whatever); it's that I think very often we have a really difficult time seeing our own circumstances from a lot of other people's perspective (especially in real time as things change in ways we never imagined).  I know for myself- even though I recognize that I had a ton of privilege baked into my life and upbringing; I came from a poor community and working class/farming family; i.e. teachers, farmers, builders: so even as my situation has changed over the years, my fundamental world view of myself hasn't changed; and this is why so many people people see themselves a certain way even though that way doesn't really align with how the rest of the world might view it.

I don't know why all the rambling- I guess I feel a certain sympathy for those folks for whom success is both great and terrible.  Most of the time the destination is a far stranger land than we ever expected.  It's become a stock phrase, and thus lost a lot of its meaning:  "What got you here, won't get yout there." So many of us found kindred spirits when we first found our way to these blogs and forums, after years of meandering alone in a world where it was hard to find like minds. Even though as time has gone by a lot of the voices that found megaphones have drifted in different directions... because that's happens, the message still has a lot of value; regardless of "imputed rent" or "they made way more money than I expected", etc.  I find R. Kyosaki to be sort of distasteful, but I have gotten a ton of value out of ideas he found a way to articulate- and I remember something he said about people who say "You can't do that!!" and that was a clue you were on the right track.  So be careful if you catch yourself saying "that won't work" or " you can't do that... " because x, y, or z.

For sure, which is why I have patently refused to have a blog or write a book or publish anything really other than my posts here.

Especially being a woman on the internet, it's not always a nice or safe place.