Get richest the fastest via uni or low paid job right out of highschool?

[Jupiter]

I left school at the end of year/grade 11 and instead of doing the final year of school (12) I went to Tafe/college and did a 6 month course then started a minimum wage job. I already had saved over $10,000 at the age of 18 by the time most of my jobless friends were just completing their final exams to finish high school. The majority of my friends from high school (around the age of 21 like me) are still studying courses in university, living off their parents, partying ect. Those with shorter courses are struggling to find jobs and one of em is working at woolworths because even though they have some computer course diploma they can't find a job.

I'm not sure what the fees are but a lot of my friends wanted to be teachers so they did a 4 year university course. Most of them will finish it at the age of 22 - 23 then start looking for jobs. Obviously they are going to have difficulty finding a job and come out of university with a huge student loan. Me on the other hand... I've been living a very mustachian lifestyle, I have my own 1 bedroom apartment in sydney which I bought for close to 600K and I'm currently paying off the mortgage. I now work 55 hours a week and run my own business which earns around 45K per year after tax. Instead of partying, chasing girls and going out I spend my little spare time making Youtube videos to make even more cash while only spending money on the basics, property bills, food, mobile, internet and that's it. No car, I walk to work.

The only unmustachian thing about me is investing the majority of my money in forex which is risky and known as gambling by folks around here but has earned me over $40,000 in the last year and a half (I've made just over 60K but lost around 20K).

I'm 21 (turning 22 in 4 months) and have a self-made networth of 170K which started off at $0 in June 2012. My friends all have negative networths due to student loans. The question is will/can they catch up to me? If early retirement is your goal and you want to save up 2 million to retire (I know you can retire on a lot less than this but note I'm from Australia, Sydney to be precise) who is going to reach 2 million first? Those who drop out of school and get the first job they can get then start saving and investing while living a mustachian lifestyle or those who complete school, stay at Uni for 4 years and come out of it having trouble getting a job that matches their qualification and starting off with a negative networth due to student loans that they have to pay off on top of interest? Lets assume the uni trained person lives a lifestyle just as mustachian as the high school drop out.

Lets say they come out of Uni and manage to land their first job matching their study path the day after turning 23. Already a high school drop out has been earning, saving and investing for 5 years. I'll have close to 300K at 23 years old but for a more realistic person that isn't as dedicated as me lets say the high school dropout has 200K at 23. Not quite sure what their student debt would be (anyone able to help with that) but the average teacher salary in australia is 47K per year after tax (I hate it when people and companies calculate their salary before tax, it's misleading). My right out of highschool job was 35K per year after tax. Lets say the 23 year old takes 2 years to pay off their student debt. They are now 25 years old with a networth of $0 earning 50K per year after tax. The high school dropout now has a networth of 300K at 25 (I'll have much more than that when I'm 25). Lets just say they are now earning 40K per year after tax but also have investments earning 10K extra per year (while continuing to increase as the stash increases). It doesn't seem the university trained person will be able to catch up especially with the high school drop outs compounding stash.

I'm really fudging the numbers here but what do you guys think? If early retirement is someones goal should they drop out of highschool and get the first job they can find or go the extra mile, study for years at uni, get into debt and hope to land a much higher paying job? I'd love to hear some examples, not everyone going to uni will be a teacher and I'm sure there are plenty of great jobs requiring uni like a doctor that pays heaps more. But would being a doctor earn you enough after all those years of study to catch up to the highschool dropout.

Post your opinion below on this matter but remember that both people would be mustachians living very frugal lifestyles. That way we can make it a more even and fair comparison :)

[matchewed]

Generally speaking your earning potential is higher with a degree. Not everyone wants to pursue entrepreneurship. So generally speaking it is better to get educated as that is what most well paid jobs are seeking. That being said skills trump education. If someone can become very skilled at something they have a chance to make a great deal of money regardless of education.

So your answer is it depends.

[arebelspy]

It very much depends on what your final FIRE expenses will be.

If you're looking for something like 60-80k/yr spending (so a stache amount of 1.5-2MM), I'd expect spending 3 years at university (and you can push for a degree in only 3 years) would benefit you, despite the 3 years of not working, and accumulating debt to pay for the degree and living expenses in the meantime.

If you're looking to live on more like 30k (750k stache), I'd expect going into a trade right away, avoiding the debt and earning ASAP would serve you.

In other words, it takes awhile for the degree to catch up, but it does earn more.  So the bigger the stache you need to earn, the more likely the degree will win out, and less those few years at the beginning will matter.

The poll asking who'd hit 2MM first, both Mustachian, I'd probably take the average university student over average dropout, even assuming they're both similar Mustachian spending-wise.

Of course some dropouts can entrepreneur and make plenty of money starting their own business, and I'm sure we'll see some people argue for that scenario, but if we're talking average Mustachian, not the exceptional ones, I'd put my money on the degree getting to 2MM first.

[TomTX]

Depends whether your FOREX gambling pays off, or zeroes you out. :D


...and yes, it's gambling. Not investing.

[modulus]

Your choice of major also matters quite a bit.  You used teacher as your example, but my friends with engineering degrees were making $60-70k USD gross per year right out of college.  Two to three years later and they are making $70-95k (sample size = 2 mechanical engineers and a chemical engineer).

Also, if a student is really bright and scores well on ACT/SAT, they could very well have free tuition at a local state university via scholarships.

[steveo]

I don't think dropping out would work best but possibly a trade would be the best option because you can earn good money without a massive period of not earning anything. Forex trading isn't going to work out for you. I know because I've done it and my FIL was a treasurer for a big bank as well as managed a private hedge fund for a billionaire. It didn't work out for the billionaire either.

Forex may work as a gamble but it isn't a way to consistently make money.

[Sofa King]

A friend dropped out of high school became an apprentice in a relatives plumbing business.  Stayed living with parents as long as he could and stock piled $$$$.  Moved out on his own soon after started his own plumbing business millionaire within 10 years of that.

[SirFrugal]

Its a pretty tough call...it really depends on your earning potential with no degree, how much you spend on education, and your earning potential with a degree.

I know I was earning 45k a year with no degree, went to community college/state college which are relatively cheap as far as college goes, and now I'm making 100-150k...so for me college was definitely worth it.  I estimate that college or not I'd probably have gotten to around 500-600k at the same time and after that college will pull way ahead.  I'd like to have more then that in my stash when I FIRE though, so college ultimately I think college will get me to my goal faster.

However...I also know a lot of people that spend a ton more on college then I did and end up earning a lot less.  Just for an example...I know one girl that dug herself in 70k in loans and spent 4 years in school she could have been working just to end up with a social work degree and a 35k a year job.  She probably could have just got a 30k a year job during those 4 years and if she was mustachain probably had a 50k nest egg instead of 70k in debt.  When comparing 30k a year + gains on 50k vs 35k a year - student loan payments until paid off, I don't think she will ever have a point where college was actually worth it.

I could really see it going either way, but I think the general rule for the average person is they aren't mustachian and they aren't stockpiling money at 18 to FIRE with, so they'll ultimately end up better off doing what is going to get them a bigger paycheck rather then counting on compounding gains to make the difference up.  I know with the girl I was talking about above, had she not ran up her debt at school she'd have just bought a nicer car and went on a few more vacations instead, so yeah she could have had a decent stash growing had she not gone to college, but odds are she wouldn't.

[Dollar Slice]

Am I reading this wrong, or is your premise that a high-school dropout will have more than his total lifetime earnings saved by the time he's 23?

You may get very lucky with investments and property valuation, but this is incredibly unlikely to happen for most people in most situations. The first five years I invested, for example - I started maxing out my IRA as soon as I got my first job - the S&P 500 went down ~20% in that five year period. Go forward another five years, the S&P 500 was still down (a total of -22.5% from the day I got my first job). That's ten years of negative investments. If I'd invested in property instead, I would have experienced a huge bubble burst on housing prices in that same ten years. You got very lucky in your timing - the market and your local housing prices have surged. Not everyone should plan their lives around being that lucky.

[Bertram]

The university student starts his own business in first semester next to his studies, he sells to google a year after he graduates, he has millions now. You lost, Sorry. Want to play again? I mean, as long as we are free to think of any likely or unlikely scenario that seems plausible - why not?


But in all seriousness: What exactly is it you want to have answered? Any why is it important to you? It sounds like you are looking for conformation - but with what you have saved I am puzzled why, given that your financial situation is better than 99% of 23 year olds. If the answer turns out to be "yes, a degree would indeed be faster" - would you stop what you are doing and get a degree?

[maizefolk]

So one part of the issue is that you're asking the question in australian dollars and most people are answering in us dollars. The exchange rate is currently 1.39:1 AUD:USD so for the US audience this is actually $1.44M. As ARS points out, which path is better depends a lot on your final expenses and hence how much money you're aiming to save up, so factoring in this reduction helps the HS grad. The other factors that matter are how much you can expect a high school grad to make (I'm assuming $30k/year based on the 90th percentile of lifetime earnings) same for college majors ($67.5k/year using the same method/$40k/year for a liberal arts major), plus tuition ($9k/year at a public school and $40k/year at a private one), living expenses (I picked $12k/year*, higher values will make the college degree more attractive), and an expected interest rate for loans and investments (6.8%**)



As you can see, the answer depends an awful lot on the decisions the person going to college makes. If you go to a private school using nothing but student loans for tuition and living expenses and pick a major that produces a relatively small wage premium you'll never catch up with someone who went to work right out of college.  OTOH, even using student loans for tuition and living expenses and not working at all during college, picking a major with a significant wage premium and going to a public school lets a person catch up with someone working right out of college in less than a decade after high school graduation.

If you're expected interest rate/rate of return is higher, it'll make working straight out of high school look more attractive. If your expected living expenses are higher it'll make the college degree look more attractive (as it increases the relative difference in savings rates a higher income provides). And obviously lots of people will earn radically more or less than what would be predicted based solely on their level of educational training.

*I could back calculate this from the desire for a $1.44M stash with the 4% rule, but that yields expected expenses of ~$58k/year which would put the high school grad and the library arts major in a debt spiral and leave the other college major very limited savings potential.

**Cumulative annual growth rate of the US stock market after adjusting for inflation.

Edit: your/you're error *hangs my head in shame*

[arebelspy]

What did you make that graph in, maizeman?  Is that an XKCD font or something?  :P

[maizefolk]

The Humor-sans font, reverse engineered from the xkcd web comic: https://packages.debian.org/sid/main/fonts-humor-sans

I tend to use this style whenever the graph I'm making is digital equivalent of sketching something out on a napkin (estimates piled on top of rules of thumb and multiplied by a best guess).

[arebelspy]

Neat!  How about the hand drawn looking graph?  Is there a particular program, or plugin or Excel or something?

[elaine amj]

Fascinating. Been wondering about this as my kids are in their teens and starting to think about future career paths.

[maizefolk]

To make the graph I used a python script with matplotlib library and some odd style option settings. http://jakevdp.github.io/blog/2013/07/10/XKCD-plots-in-matplotlib/

[madamwitty]

To make the graph I used a python script with matplotlib library and some odd style option settings. http://jakevdp.github.io/blog/2013/07/10/XKCD-plots-in-matplotlib/

A quick web search turned up this:

http://xkcdgraphs.com

I assumed you had used that. But you get extra credit for doing it the hard way :-)

[arebelspy]

To make the graph I used a python script with matplotlib library and some odd style option settings. http://jakevdp.github.io/blog/2013/07/10/XKCD-plots-in-matplotlib/

Brilliant!  Cheers!

[maizefolk]

To make the graph I used a python script with matplotlib library and some odd style option settings. http://jakevdp.github.io/blog/2013/07/10/XKCD-plots-in-matplotlib/

A quick web search turned up this:

http://xkcdgraphs.com

I assumed you had used that. But you get extra credit for doing it the hard way :-)

I had no idea that website existed, sweet! Unfortunately, even if I'd know, I'm not smart enough to reduce all the assumptions into single equations for each line. Instead I fall back on if statements and for loops.

[madamwitty]

To make the graph I used a python script with matplotlib library and some odd style option settings. http://jakevdp.github.io/blog/2013/07/10/XKCD-plots-in-matplotlib/

A quick web search turned up this:

http://xkcdgraphs.com

I assumed you had used that. But you get extra credit for doing it the hard way :-)

I had no idea that website existed, sweet! Unfortunately, even if I'd know, I'm not smart enough to reduce all the assumptions into single equations for each line. Instead I fall back on if statements and for loops.

No doubt your Python script is more capable. Anyway, I like what you did with the plots above (both substance and style.)

[maizefolk]

Brilliant!  Cheers!

No doubt your Python script is more capable. Anyway, I like what you did with the plots above (both substance and style.)

Thanks! Glad it was a success. :-D

[Vilgan]

College was a super inefficient way to get rolling, but still better than no preparation imo. I would consider some sort of 1 year focused technical school (but not a 9 week boot camp!) to be the most efficient way to start. However, given the constraints of college vs direct into the world I'd pick an affordable college as the best way to start. Most of the high paying careers are going to require some level of training and even if you go into business for yourself, frequently you'll be able to go into a more profitable business if your degree and follow on career was in something lucrative.

As for not catching up, I think that's pretty absurd. The 10k in return from investments is pretty small compared to increased earnings and most technical fields will have an annual raise every year that is significantly larger. I also think there are a whole bunch of inappropriate assumptions that feel self congratulatory at in the OP. Why would they have debt? Why are you picking a teacher as a counter example? Sure, if you pick a super motivated successful dropout vs someone who goes to school, generates giant student loans, then picks the least lucrative field to go into - yeah of course not going to college looks alright. What about someone who IS motivated and starts out making 80k after tax and then starts a business and makes 200k after tax after a few years? Or just stays in the regular pipeline and makes 140k after tax?

In addition: a lot of the possibilities available to those only available to those with degrees will be more intellectually challenging and interesting. A career isn't just about racing to not work anymore, its also about enjoying yourself on the journey.

[SwordGuy]

You make 45k and some bank loaned you enough money to buy a 600k house to live in?

I thought Aussies had more sense than Yanks and wouldn't make such a loan.

There's something about your whole story that makes me think this is as serious as an April Fool's Day joke.

[use2betrix]

You are not the average so you can't compare yourself to the average.

Why don't we compare it to a person who makes, say, 45k as you do, and smartly and safely invests in a fund with an 8% return. Say in 10 years you're making 70k and they're making 120k? They'll pass you eventually.

[SirFrugal]

In addition: a lot of the possibilities available to those only available to those with degrees will be more intellectually challenging and interesting. A career isn't just about racing to not work anymore, its also about enjoying yourself on the journey.

Definitely.  College got me out of a labor job where all the older guys had bad backs, knees, shoulders, hips, etc.  Even if college maybe added a couple years onto the earliest I could hit FI, at least I'll be doing it without any work related injuries.

You make 45k and some bank loaned you enough money to buy a 600k house to live in?

I thought Aussies had more sense than Yanks and wouldn't make such a loan.

There's something about your whole story that makes me think this is as serious as an April Fool's Day joke.

I just assumed it was a typo and he meant 60k.

[BlueHouse]

The OP assumes parallel paths and similar growth and earning power, but that is not usually the case. 

If the economy shrinks and jobs are difficult to get, the college grad has many more choices than the high school dropout.  So it could turn in to a situation where the dropout is left with no work and the grad is left with lesser choices, but still would have choices. 

Alternately, if the high school dropout chooses a skilled trade like a plumber, he is more likely to hold up through recessions than even a college grad. 

[iamlindoro]

You make 45k and some bank loaned you enough money to buy a 600k house to live in?

I thought Aussies had more sense than Yanks and wouldn't make such a loan.

There's something about your whole story that makes me think this is as serious as an April Fool's Day joke.

I just assumed it was a typo and he meant 60k.

As I understand it, 60K wouldn't get you a parking spot in Sydney.

http://www.domain.com.au/news/sydneys-median-house-price-pushes-through-800000-20140723-zvxjw/

[Jschange]

I think fastest where I live would be a high school graduate works a no-one job living at home for a few years, saves up enough to pay for school in a high paying field, ages into receiving mature student grants etc. Then does school, working 1 day per week, is a high achiever in school. Graduates into a high paying job with money in the bank.

But I agree with the above posters that any method can get you there quickly if it's right for you. Arebelspy is a teacher, about my age, according to everything I hear about teachers my age, he should still be struggling to get hired in a district, while having delayed paying debt so he can volunteer and supply teach. But instead of being complainypants he is retired after a successful teaching career.

[marty998]

Of course we are currently not discussing average people in this thread but outliers.

But I would say the DINK path will beat everything.

By not spending your time 'chasing girls' (your words) I think that will be (on average) the most likely determinant of who gets to $2m first.

If I had my time over I'd probably be partnered up with $2m by now if I did spend more time chasing skirts at your age. As it is, I've been having quite a bit of flirty fun this past 2 weeks trying to convince a girl to go out with me. Hopefully nearly there(!)

Happiness is not found at bottom of a bank vault.

[theconcierge]

Do you live in the property which you have a 600k loan on? I am presuming no, that's one massive loan

[Jupiter]

I guess there really are too many variables here to consider so I guess the idea is "in general" rather than there being a solid answer. Many people could retire on less than 2 million as well and obviously a dedicated high school drop out is going to get to $500,000K before the University trained person is which could lead them to the early retirement, thus actual happiness in life faster (in my case anyway, everyone is different).

Just to clear up a few things about me (I really didn't want this thread to be a debate about me):
- I only got the loan on my property in Brookvale mid this year, prices have not gone up (infact they are due to go down/are currently potentially going down) so no, I did not buy at a lucky time and I have not increased my net worth based on my property price increasing. I've tracked the value of my property the same since the day I bought it and will not get it revalued until at least 10 years has passed.

- Yes, I had a lot of trouble actually getting the loan and had to go with a less well known bank due to my low income and the fact the property is just under 50 square metres. All the big banks just straight out said no way to me. I lied to the less well known bank and said I would have a renter in there which helped me get the loan (I did have a renter in there for the first 6 weeks, they came with the property). I payed a 10% deposit and the property itself was in the $560Ks but after all the fees like stamp duty it ended up costing me 586K in total for the one bedroom apartment. I've got 65K in property equity and 105K in my forex accounts. So no, the property is not worth 58K, it cost me 586K (including fees). I know some places in America (definitely not new york) have properties worth under 60K but you won't find places like that in Australia unless you buy a rundown house in Broken Hill (an old mining town in the middle of the desert) and you're ok breathing up lead all day. Literally, look at lead that gathers on the playgrounds on a daily basis in broken hill: http://theconversation.com/toxic-playgrounds-broken-hill-kids-exposed-to-poisonous-dust-32325

- With forex... I have my account attached to a copier that copies the trades of a professional trader. This particular trader makes about 3.5% per month (a LOT less than those crazy traders that make 50% a month for 6 months before getting caught in a bad basket and blowing their accounts) and has been consistently making this on average for almost 3 years with only 1 losing month. I don't add more money to this guy, I simply withdraw money occasionally after it compounds for a while then withdraw again. I'll never let my account compound to over $200,000 as in my opinion that's way too much to have in forex (unless your networth is over 2 million). 120K is the most I'm "comfortable" with to be honest so I typically don't let my account get above that before I withdraw more profits. It's great investing in a professional so you don't have to trade yourself and suffer all the stress of trading. I know forex is risky but it's a risk I'm willing to take and so far I'm doing fine but I know things may change in future.

-I'm Asexual and Aromantic. So I will never chase girls (or boys) and happiness for me is not found in a relationship. I will never have kids. If you're unfamiliar with the existence of Asexual people the Aven forum will be a beneficial place to visit. I was a member there during my late teens but I deleted my account a couple of years ago to avoid being identified in real life as I gave out way too much personal information back then. I was there just to work out my sexuality as I was brought up in a lifestyle/environment where those around me were always telling me that unless I got married to a female I would go to hell. Nobody around me knows I'm asexual or aromatic and that's the way I want it to stay for as long as possible otherwise my life will fall apart (I'll be fired and forever tormented, literally)

In the future lets say I get my loan down to 120K and that's how much I have in my forex account. I'll withdraw the whole lot to pay off the loan. Even though it's inefficient to do it that way I would prefer to just get out of debt ASAP. Typically my forex account grows by $800 per week.

Anyway this topic has been quite interesting so far, I've been enjoying it. It would be cool to hear the stories of a few more uni people and high school drop outs (like me, as awkward as that sounds) to see these scenarios in action more.

[theconcierge]

You seem like a switched on kid & from your posts I am reading that you don't really want to go to uni. If you have no real desire to go, or have particular course in mind then simply don't waste your time.

I finished year 12 but didn't go to Uni. I currently earn $120,000 (plus super and a few other little perks) which I consider a very decent income. As you know from being on here, it's all about how much you can spend. I have friends who have always earnt a lot less than me who would have a higher net worth than me simply because I wasted a lot of money in my early 20's (and I have friends who have been earning over 200k for years and years who have nothing to show for it) but I had a good four or five years head start on my "uni friends" and in those years I bought a house which went up $150,000 while they were in uni). 

I reckon you will kill it if you save your ass off!

[elaine amj]

The college route certainly has its drawbacks - especially if you don't go the STEM route where jobs are often more plentiful/higher-paying. One of my friends in uni was a "perpetual student" and ended up with two degrees, then a Masters in library science. Didn't graduate until his early thirties. He had an impossible time finding full time permanent work in the library field. His wife also graduated with a masters in library science and once she found a full time job in a library - they were stuck geographically near her job. In his early forties, he gave it up and moved into construction - which required no education. He found he enjoyed the manual labor and the pay was very decent. He would have been so very much further ahead if he had gone straight into construction.

If my kids like any of the skilled trades, I have no problems encouraging them to go for it. My own mother actually encouraged me not to go to university. She was very successful in insurance and wanted to train me to take over her agency. You certainly don't need an education to work in insurance. But I really wanted the uni experience and could not find any passion in insurance although I like sales well enough. Instead, she ended up giving it to her sister when she retired. I make a whole lot less than my mom did in her career. Money-wise, I would have been much better off doing as she had suggested

[arebelspy]

Of course we are currently not discussing average people in this thread but outliers.

But I would say the DINK path will beat everything.

By not spending your time 'chasing girls' (your words) I think that will be (on average) the most likely determinant of who gets to $2m first.

If I had my time over I'd probably be partnered up with $2m by now if I did spend more time chasing skirts at your age. As it is, I've been having quite a bit of flirty fun this past 2 weeks trying to convince a girl to go out with me. Hopefully nearly there(!)

Happiness is not found at bottom of a bank vault.

Good point. Can confirm the DINK thing works well.

More importantly is the happiness.

Naturally, marriage shouldn't be a money thing at all, but putting time into finding a meaningful relationship (with someone that shares your monetary values, among other things), certainly is worth it, IMO.

[galliver]

I think that's the wrong question entirely. I think the right question in career choices is always, always, "what do you actually want to do?"

Maybe you can become FI faster as a plumber than a teacher, but if the choice is being miserable for years and being a horrible plumber because you're all thumbs and hate gross dirty water, and getting a college education and then  having a satisfying teaching career because explaining fractions to 11 year olds is something you're great at...well I think the good life choice is obvious here.

Some people do very well very early flipping houses, or managing their own rentals, etc. But for others (and I know a couple personally) that is literally the very definition of hell. And as such, they would never consider themselves retired in any sense while they have to do this work.

So the question "what is the best way to get to FI/RE the fastest" doesn't have a good universal answer. More fundamentally than anything it depends on the person: what are they good at and enjoy doing? what do they consider important in the world? what does early retirement look like for them? do they downshift to a low-paid, high-satisfaction job on their own schedule (carpenter, fitness instructor, etc), or do they do something unpaid or that takes money, like travel, read/study, garden, parent, whatever? And as such, do they need a full FI stash or can they downshift earlier through frugal living?

[Jupiter]

The problem is what I enjoy doesn't pay well or doesn't pay at all thus why I need to go through hell for 10 years absolutely hating my life until I can quit with a passive income to support myself so I can do the job I actually want to do. That's the whole point of early retirement, doing something you are passionate about rather than what will earn you enough money to support yourself. Everyone is different of course so some people may do a UNI job they love. For me, I hate having a boss, being paid directly for my time, having set hours, having co workers or doing something repetitive. Any job that involves any of those things isn't for me.

What do I like? Making software and making YouTube videos (I hate the editing part (which is very in depth (several layers) due to the nature of the videos) though but I get so much joy from having 95% of people liking my videos and sending me great comments anticipating the next episode, it makes up for it). I had a YouTube channel that a friend and I made and built up over two years and we got 50,000 subscribers. We were getting 500 dollars a month (which had to be split) from it but due to the low income and lack of time we had to give it up and now get countless emails from fans pleading us to make more episodes but no because of work we can't. I have half of Saturday free but apart from that I have no chucks of time more than 1 hour free (my body and mind is exhausted from work at these times too so I have no energy to do what I want).

So on Saturdays I'm trying to build up a new YouTube channel but due to lack of time to put in enough effort I've only got 1,200 subscribers (totally hopeless) in 6 months (and once again fans begging me for more videos). As you can imagine that earns only a few dollars a week due to lack of videos and subs (which means more views)... So if I had unlimited money I'd be making videos almost every day but because I don't, I have to not follow my dream and instead wait 10 years in a job I hate before I can proceed with it.

There's nothing in uni that interests me, I like following my own path. For that reason money is the most important thing in my life at the moment thus why I'm so dedicated to building my net worth. So for me, money is the only way to happiness (remember I'm asexual and aromantic). I never go out and party which is odd for someone my age. People think I'm mature for resisting doing this but honestly, I'm not resisting any temptations. I have absolutely no desire to be in such an environment.

Anyway, moving on :)

[arebelspy]

I think that's the wrong question entirely. I think the right question in career choices is always, always, "what do you actually want to do?"

Well said.

The point of life isn't to FIRE quickest.  This question misses the point, and so did all of us answering the question (myself included).  We came up with correct answers to the question, IMO, but we ignored the fact that it was the wrong question.

Thanks for pointing this out.  :)

[sam]

So for me, money is the only way to happiness.

This is a bad way to live, you can't base your level of life satisfaction on a number.

You mentioned it brings you satisfaction when you get people liking your videos, although you made little money doing so?

I'd advise you to not compare your self so much based on money and what others at your age are earning, look for greater satisfaction before it's too late you're already in the 1% financially.

Sam

[Bertram]

The problem is what I enjoy doesn't pay well or doesn't pay at all thus why I need to go through hell for 10 years absolutely hating my life until I can quit with a passive income to support myself so I can do the job I actually want to do.

It's never so black and white. There are not only extremes, and you are being way too literal in your answer. Let me explain:
Most jobs for most people are tolerable, some are great, some are bad. Pick a tolerable one for you and you don't have to be miserable while saving your way to FI. A lot of people do not like traveling, I don't mind traveling at all, so that opens up jobs for me that I find tolerable which other people hate.
Next is the set of skills involved: some people take it too literal and think of things they have been happy doing in the past. Like the example with creating youtubevideos, it is much more accurate to abstract away from the literal task to the aspects of it that you enjoyed. Having an audience? Was it talking about subjects that you were passionate about or was it so flexible that you talked about whatever people responded well to and you just like the attention? Respectively you may look into journalism or a moderator/talking head in media/showbiz. Same way people do not become accountants or tax experts because they enjoy sitting at a desk and staring at tax laws/numbers, but because they like precision/organization/categorizing stuff and so on. They may not have tears of joy doing it, but they find it tolerable and it plays to their strengths while other people hate it and are willing to pay well to get that stuff done.

Most topics can become very interesting once you start to learn more about them. It's just a matter of getting the context right so you don't end up doing something you hate. Why? Simply because a lot of people, especially young people, severely underestimate how long 10 years can become if you spend it doing something you hate. the litmus test is how you feel Sunday evenings - if your mood becomes worse and worse, you're doing the wrong job and you certainly won't do it another 5 years. If you enjoy yourself on Sunday evenings, you're doing fine - and the complaining is more of a social thing.

There's nothing in uni that interests me, I like following my own path.

Then why even ask the question the way you did? This together with what you described about liking the attention and confirmation of other people with your YouTube activities you are putting way too much value on others people's perception of you. Probably normal for your young age, but something to keep in mind to work on changing, it's not healthy to make yourself dependent on others affirmation in that way and it will make it impossible to really become happy in life.

[galliver]

The problem is what I enjoy doesn't pay well or doesn't pay at all thus why I need to go through hell for 10 years absolutely hating my life until I can quit with a passive income to support myself so I can do the job I actually want to do. That's the whole point of early retirement, doing something you are passionate about rather than what will earn you enough money to support yourself. Everyone is different of course so some people may do a UNI job they love. For me, I hate having a boss, being paid directly for my time, having set hours, having co workers or doing something repetitive. Any job that involves any of those things isn't for me.

What do I like? Making software and making YouTube videos (I hate the editing part (which is very in depth (several layers) due to the nature of the videos) though but I get so much joy from having 95% of people liking my videos and sending me great comments anticipating the next episode, it makes up for it). I had a YouTube channel that a friend and I made and built up over two years and we got 50,000 subscribers. We were getting 500 dollars a month (which had to be split) from it but due to the low income and lack of time we had to give it up and now get countless emails from fans pleading us to make more episodes but no because of work we can't. I have half of Saturday free but apart from that I have no chucks of time more than 1 hour free (my body and mind is exhausted from work at these times too so I have no energy to do what I want).

So on Saturdays I'm trying to build up a new YouTube channel but due to lack of time to put in enough effort I've only got 1,200 subscribers (totally hopeless) in 6 months (and once again fans begging me for more videos). As you can imagine that earns only a few dollars a week due to lack of videos and subs (which means more views)... So if I had unlimited money I'd be making videos almost every day but because I don't, I have to not follow my dream and instead wait 10 years in a job I hate before I can proceed with it.

There's nothing in uni that interests me, I like following my own path. For that reason money is the most important thing in my life at the moment thus why I'm so dedicated to building my net worth. So for me, money is the only way to happiness (remember I'm asexual and aromantic). I never go out and party which is odd for someone my age. People think I'm mature for resisting doing this but honestly, I'm not resisting any temptations. I have absolutely no desire to be in such an environment.

Anyway, moving on :)

OP, you are fascinating. Also please don't take anything I say in the next sentence as derogatory; I am a nerd and I went to a nerd university and have many nerd friends and all of us have varying social acumen and interests and that doesn't make any of us bad people and that's true for you as well. Since I only know you from your post, what comes through the page at me is that you are one of two types of people: (1) you got turned off of social interaction and relationships (I pretty much mean just emotional/friendly, since you profess to be asexual/aromantic and I know that's a thing) possibly due to bad experiences like bullying or trouble developing social skills; now you tell yourself you don't need friendship or acceptance from (most) other people, or that they're idiots/not worth your time, but actually just don't know how to make it happen or (2) you are a high-functioning psychopath, in that you do not empathize with others or form true emotional attachments. Either way, you are rejecting some of the traditional markers of success (big circle of friends, family, professional respect, etc) and looking for alternative definitions of success, preferably quantitative ones. Your YouTube feedback is quantifiable: many viewers+many positive reviews = success. You are looking for similar validation from FIRE: retirement "stache" + getting there fast = success. Unlike Bertram, I'm not entirely certain that you are looking for social validation exactly (though if you're (1) above you may be, in a roundabout way, but you probably wouldn't admit it...). You're just grasping for a definition of "winning."

Except as I said in my previous post, there is no singular definition. Retiring earlier doesn't make you (or anyone) better than anyone else. Not better morally, not better at life. It means you set yourself that goal and things went your way and you accomplished it, and now you no longer have to work (or accept welfare) to fulfill your basic needs. Congratulations, you can do whatever you want. Are you any better off than the person doing what they want already that just hasn't saved as much as you? Are you doing better than someone who set different priorities or goals, like starting a family or getting an advanced education? I'm in graduate school for a PhD; it interferes with financial goals a bit, compared to where I'd be if I'd taken an engineering job out of college(or uni as you say); I don't really mind (I have other issues with it, but it's been eye-opening for sure and I would never have known how it was and wasn't a good fit if I hadn't tried it, so no regrets).

There's nothing wrong with the way you're living if you think it will satisfy you. I do think it's rather short-sighted to say that you have to suffer through 10 years of work and that there is nothing you enjoy doing you can get paid for. I think it's uncreative and unresourceful. Didn't you say you enjoyed making software? Very high-demand skill right now, though in some settings may require the legitimacy of a CS degree or perhaps an alternate certification to signal to employers, or customers if you freelance, that you have your fundamentals in a row. Bertram gave you some suggestions of careers based on your YouTubing interests. How successful, and how happy, do you think you would be if you committed 100% of your time to the YouTube channel? What if you also freelanced some software development on the side? What if this pushed your RE date by 5 years? 10 years? But you were doing these things you profess to love instead of "going through hell" for 10 years? Maybe it's all too much bother, too much risk, too much dealing with people. That's fine. It's your life.

[galliver]

Well said.

Thanks, arebelspy :)

[maizefolk]

Awesome post galliver! It's not unique to the OP. I think a lot of us, myself included, get drawn into the saving-more-and-FIRE-earlier-equals-winning mindset from time to time. Threads like "How much money have you saved by age X" or "post your savings rate here" seem to particularly promote that mentality for some.

Unrelated but I think getting a PhD can often be great preparation for FIRE for reasons that have nothing to do with increasing earning potential. Grad school teaches you that you really can live a satisfying and fulfilling life on a remarkably tiny stipend, then once the lesson has sunk in, lets you go out into the world and make what most would consider a reasonable salary but which will now feel to you like a absurd firehose of money! But it does set you awfully far back if your happiness depends on posting a big number in the "net worth by 30" thread. ;-)

[Jeremy E.]

This is all a matter of choice, what are your goals, what do you want to do. I wouldn't drop out of high school personally, but not going to college is a liable option depending on what you want to do. If your goal is to retire as soon as possible by any means necessary. I'd think you're best option is to
1. Finish high school while working part time and saving money and taking team treehouse courses, also learn how to live extremely frugally and invest smart and do so for the rest of your life.
2. right after high school find a job that utilizes your team treehouse courses and gets you some money and experience, work extremely hard and put in lots of overtime.
3. once you have a year of experience, start applying at big tech companies to find a job, work extremely hard there and put in lots of overtime. After a year or 2 at the big tech company, if the raises don't satisfy you start applying at other big tech companies.
4. Rinse and repeat step 3 until you have enough to retire.

I think that would be the best way to retire as fast as you can, however becoming an apprentice or preapprentice lineman for a big utility and then working up to a lineman right after high school could work well, or another type of trade. I also had some friends go right out of high school to work in the oil industry and were making $80k/year, however they always complained about how much they hated it and how hard it was.

A lot of people have more than one desire, so they care about more than just retiring as fast as possible. Some people highly value the knowledge and experience they can gain at University. They might even want to keep the job they were able to get because of university after they are financially independent. I think most people become teachers because they like to teach, I'm guessing few do it to attempt to retire ASAP, as most people don't consider it a "high paying career".

[effigy98]

Didn't go to college or get the huge loans. Had to self teach how to program which was very hard. At age 19 was making about 70k average until around 30 when career finally made it out of contractor (temp) land. I would have moved up a lot faster with a degree in my field, however, if I had known about early retirement I would have saved instead of spent it all and been retired in early 30's. With your savings rate and discipline, would question the value of college, for me I wish I had done either the saving with no college, or college and moved up the ranks to make big salary out of the gate. The way it went was a very tough road.

[galliver]

Awesome post galliver! It's not unique to the OP. I think a lot of us, myself included, get drawn into the saving-more-and-FIRE-earlier-equals-winning mindset from time to time. Threads like "How much money have you saved by age X" or "post your savings rate here" seem to particularly promote that mentality for some.

Unrelated but I think getting a PhD can often be great preparation for FIRE for reasons that have nothing to do with increasing earning potential. Grad school teaches you that you really can live a satisfying and fulfilling life on a remarkably tiny stipend, then once the lesson has sunk in, lets you go out into the world and make what most would consider a reasonable salary but which will now feel to you like a absurd firehose of money! But it does set you awfully far back if your happiness depends on posting a big number in the "net worth by 30" thread. ;-)

Thanks maizeman, I think those are all good points.

There's nothing necessarily wrong with defining "saving-more-and-FIRE-earlier-equals-winning" for oneself (though I do think it's unfortunate if that locks you into a high-paying job you hate, keeps you from considering "downshifting" options that might bring more satisfaction). But I do think it's a mistake to apply that metric to others, who may not be in the same race for a variety of reasons.

[MrsPete]

All things being equal (which they never are in real life), the university student's likely to make more money, have better benefits, and is less likely to experience job losses.  Of course, you can find people who don't fit this mold, but we're talking averages.

If you were open to any path at all and were trying to make the most money possible, I'd say this would be the generic path:

- Get a jump on college classes through dual enrollment in high school /community college -- this is a better deal than AP classes. 
- Apply for scholarships. 
- Go to a state school, work hard and avoid taking out loans. Graduate early if possible. 
- Make frugal choices in college:  Cheap apartment, frugal food ... but prioritize internships and other opportunities to forge professional connections above work whenever possible.
- Work during summers and school breaks. 
- Choose a STEM major or something else with high demand and a high salary.
- From the moment you begin working in a professional job, start saving and investing.
- Marry someone who's made similar choices. 

[shotgunwilly]

You make $45k a year, have a $540k mortgage loan, 38% of your net worth is in your living quarters and the other 62% is in Forex accounts and you claim:

The high school dropout now has a networth of 300K at 25 (I'll have much more than that when I'm 25).

Dude, you are making some absolutely wild assumptions.

[arebelspy]

You make $45k a year, have a $540k mortgage loan, 38% of your net worth is in your living quarters and the other 62% is in Forex accounts and you claim:

The high school dropout now has a networth of 300K at 25 (I'll have much more than that when I'm 25).

Dude, you are making some absolutely wild assumptions.

+1.

I'm rooting for you, but I wouldn't bet on you.

ROR is way too high.

[Jupiter]

Galliver, I liked your post. The last paragraph I half agreed with but I won't argue because I know it's not going to get me anywhere. Still overall it was a great read, thanks for the effort.

Arebalspy and shotgunwilly, Think of it this way. From 18 - 21 I've gone from 0 to 170K. From 21-24 let's say I make the same (It will mostly likely be more but I won't argue) that means at 24 I'll have 340K. By 25 I'll have even more... (Assuming things go just as they are now).

[arebelspy]

Galliver, I liked your post. The last paragraph I half agreed with but I won't argue because I know it's not going to get me anywhere. Still overall it was a great read, thanks for the effort.

Arebalspy and shotgunwilly, Think of it this way. From 18 - 21 I've gone from 0 to 170K. From 21-24 let's say I make the same (It will mostly likely be more but I won't argue) that means at 24 I'll have 340K. By 25 I'll have even more... (Assuming things go just as they are now).

This is the assumption we're questioning.

You're gambling heavily, and winning at the moment.  But due to the nature of it, your ROR (Risk of Ruin) is very high.  The odds that you hit 0 before you hit 340k are decent (especially compared to a passive buy and hold strategy).  It may be less than 50/50, but it's still quantitatively high.