Author Topic: Generation Y and let downs..  (Read 39499 times)

jrhampt

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #100 on: September 20, 2013, 10:58:12 AM »
I live in a city, don't have a car or a house (i rent) and don't anticipate having either for the forseeable future, and i'm just fine with that.  I think its overly simplistic to try to generalize entire generations.  My baby boom parents spent like drunken sailors, bought a suburban McMansion...

Yes, over-generalizations.  It might be useful to ask not what your parents are doing now, but what they did when they were the age you are now.  Now I'm sorry if some people think this is trolling, but at current Gen-Y ages, I was spending a lot of time living out of my car.  Nowadays I have a rural place which, though it's not a McMansion, probably costs as much as one.  What's the difference between me then and me now?  Several decades of experience, education, and saving.  And I bet it will be much the same for the Gen-Y folks, several decades down the road.

Exactly.  Most of us struggled in our twenties - it just takes time and lots of banging up against brick walls to get anywhere.  I remember it felt like an endless struggle, with healthcare going up and wage freezes year after year.  I whined about it, too.  I had expected it to be easier.  But then all of a sudden it gets better.  Patience and persistence, man. 

Also, I am very, very thankful for SS.  It is a comfort to me to know that my parents will have some sort of income in their old age and that I won't entirely have to support them myself.  Some kind of mandatory saving system like this is necessary for society to function without loads of the elderly in poverty.  There are so many people who will never save if it is optional, and I have several examples of that mentality in my family. 

And I don't think we can complain about older generations collecting SS now when they've paid into it for so many years, as you will have done at some point yourself.  It is an "entitlement" in the sense that they ARE absolutely entitled to it.  There is a lot of fear-mongering about SS, and there has been for years.  It's still here.  I would be more worried about Medicare, if you have to worry about something.

Jack

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #101 on: September 20, 2013, 04:46:15 PM »
Every time a boomer tells me about this magical thing called a penn-shunn I am enthralled by the strangeness of it all.
You have one.  It's called Social Security.

As a member of gen-Y, I have no expectation that I'll ever receive a dime from Social Security.

In fact, I'm more worried about having to support my gen-X in-laws when they get screwed out of theirs.

Then why complain about not having a pension???  If one thinks that SS may not be great, I'd be even more worried about a company's stability than the Governments.  Companies go bankrupt much more than the U.S. government. 

I didn't. What I complain about is being forced to dump money down SS's black hole anyway.

Also, more and more families today are made up of two-career couples...

And why do you think that is? Is it because the second person in the couple wants to work, or is it because he feels that he has to work to afford an average lifestyle? And does an average lifestyle in 2013 (with cellphones and cable and whatnot) represent an increase or a decrease in standard of living versus an average lifestyle in 1963 (with only one spouse working and the other having time to stay home, run the household, and take care of the children)?

In general, generation Y:
  • Are starting out with tons of student loan debt because they didn't know any better (a mistake which previous generations didn't have the chance to make), and
  • Can't get decent careers started because the economy has been sucking worse than any time since the '30s, and
  • Are being forced to pay for the Baby Boomers' Social Security (but won't get it back when it's their turn -- or if they do, it'll be after hyperinflation and therefore worthless), and
  • Are going to get stuck paying to care for the Gen Xers when they get old (because that generation came after pensions went away, but didn't realize that meant they had to actually save on their own.)

Jamesqf

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #102 on: September 20, 2013, 10:33:59 PM »
In general, generation Y:
  • Are starting out with tons of student loan debt because they didn't know any better (a mistake which previous generations didn't have the chance to make), and
  • Can't get decent careers started because the economy has been sucking worse than any time since the '30s, and
  • Are being forced to pay for the Baby Boomers' Social Security (but won't get it back when it's their turn -- or if they do, it'll be after hyperinflation and therefore worthless), and
  • Are going to get stuck paying to care for the Gen Xers when they get old (because that generation came after pensions went away, but didn't realize that meant they had to actually save on their own.)

Maybe a little perspective is needed. 

1) Yes, some Gen-Yers are starting out with massive student loan debt, and why is that?  Because they stupidly borrowed far more than they could reasonably expect to pay back.  A far larger number borrowed reasonable amounts to go to in-state schools, and so had an opportunity to get a college education which they would not have had at all, were they Baby Boomers.  So why is this a problem?  To me, it seems like a considerable improvement for the not-stupid.

2) Maybe the ones who can't get their careers started are the ones who "followed their passion", instead of learning a marketable skillset.  Besides, whoever told you that all Baby Boomers had it easy starting their careers was lying to you.

3) And as for that pension thing, sure, some people got them, but the price was spending pretty much your whole life working for the same damn company (or gov't agency), doing whatever work they assigned to you, moving wherever they chose to send you...  I'll take the 401k, and the freedom to switch jobs any time I like, without sacrificing that pension.

MsGuided

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #103 on: September 20, 2013, 11:23:17 PM »
Wow!  The passion in this thread is intense.  As a Gen X-er who had a liberal arts degree and couldn't find a decent paying job out of college (so I went to law school and took out more student loans),  I can understand the frustration and disillusionment of many Gen Y college graduates buried under student debt and struggling to find work.  The thing I believe very strongly is that most degrees are not worth the cost in strictly economic terms.  Also, if you love learning (as do I) there are many outlets for that passion these days beyond the traditional four-year living in a dorm college experience.

Whether it's fair or not, the market is not rewarding most degrees as it used to and I don't believe an economic recovery will ever bring back the "good old days" of getting a job at a big company based on a four year degree.  The world has changed.

Riceman

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #104 on: September 21, 2013, 02:20:41 AM »
Who will pay the increased taxes and reduced services to pay back our national debt? It seems likely that boomers and greatest generation will continue to pass this buck on to gen x and y. That's why i roll my eyes at articles singling out y'ers as entitled.

pumpkinlantern

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #105 on: September 21, 2013, 08:26:50 AM »
Student Loans
Most Gen Y'ers are not spending $100,000 on liberal arts degrees.  I think the cost of education for standard jobs is increasing in part because of student loans.  Because student loans have now become available, people can afford to pay ridiculous prices for them and so the cost of tuition has gone up. 

I am a resident physician who is an early Gen Y'er.  The cost of medical education in my local university in Canada with $5000/year only 5 years prior to when I entered.  It is now $20,000/year in part due to the availability of student loans.  When I went to med school, it was $17,000/year.  In the US, the tuition fees are not as subsidized as in Canada and the average tuition is closer to $40,000.  Although no one ought to go into medicine for money, it's not exactly a "Gen Y'ers are stupid and that's why they spend $100,000 on a useless degree" type of education that many people are using to generalize.

This New York times article actually discusses this problem. 
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/05/12/easing-the-pain-of-student-loans/loans-are-part-of-the-problem-not-the-solution

Housing Prices
The exact same thing is happening with housing prices, although this is something that has been going on an awful lot longer than student loans.  It is the availability of cheap mortgages that has driven up the prices of housing.  The bursting of the US housing bubble and the issues with subprime mortgages has somewhat offset this in recent years, but the overall cost of housing relative to salaries/inflation has astronomically ballooned due to people being able to pay with mortgages. 

For example, my parents bought a house in 1989 for $200,000.  In inflation adjusted dollars that works out to $365,000.  The taxman estimates their house to cost closer to $1,000,000 right now.  Now I understand that they are in an overinflated Canadian real estate market right now, but even if you were to cut that by half that would still be $500,000 or 35% more than the cost in inflation adjusted dollars.

There's something else going on here.  And although it's more complicated than one simple thing, the availability of mortgages has an awful lot to do with it.

I am not disputing that there are some whine-y, complaining people in my generation.  There are in every generation.  And I am not disputing that working hard and facing the reality of our generation is important.  What I am saying is that there are some systematic issues at play.  And generalizing that Gen Y'ers are less successful than their Baby Boomer parents and are in a tough place financially because they are too entitled to work hard and think they are special is doing a disservice to an entire generation.

arebelspy

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #106 on: September 21, 2013, 12:08:02 PM »
That whole second half of your post I strongly disagree with, for the US at least.

Housing prices in the US are around early 2000s level.  That's essentially a decade with no inflation on them if you purchase now, AND with rates much lower than they were, the real cost is much lower.

In other words, it's a great time to be young and looking to buy a house.
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MrsPete

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #107 on: September 21, 2013, 05:20:20 PM »
    • Are starting out with tons of student loan debt because they didn't know any better (a mistake which previous generations didn't have the chance to make), and
    • Can't get decent careers started because the economy has been sucking worse than any time since the '30s, and
    • Are being forced to pay for the Baby Boomers' Social Security (but won't get it back when it's their turn -- or if they do, it'll be after hyperinflation and therefore worthless), and
    • Are going to get stuck paying to care for the Gen Xers when they get old (because that generation came after pensions went away, but didn't realize that meant they had to actually save on their own.)
    No, the mistake of over-borrowing for a college education was available to my generation (I'm right in between the Boomers and the Xes), but the vast majority of us didn't buy into it.  Thing is, we had heard the word NO in our childhood, and we recognized that we could search for less expensive options, that we could choose something other than the very best available option and still survive.  So, yes, the choice of borrowing was available to us . . . but -- by and large -- we didn't take it.  In fact, every year of college, I was offered loans and had to go through the process of officially turning them down. 

    Yeah, you're right that you'll be paying my Social Security.  Just like I am now paying my parents' Social Security.  Regardless, you can't blame those of us who are older and who have paid into the system all our lives.  You say you want to collect on your "investment".  So do we.  It's a less-than-ideal system, but you're not first-generation-screwed here. 

    No, I don't think you're going to be stuck paying for individuals who didn't save.  Those individuals will be screwed.  They may keep working longer than they want, they may turn to reverse mortgages, they may end up in lackluster state nursing homes, or they may end up becoming a burden to their children . . . or some combination of ways to get by.   

    You're looking at the challenges that your generation faces, and you're completely ignoring the fact that previous generations had their own difficulties -- not the same ones you face, but problems just as severe.  You Yers tend to look at the world and think, "Other generations had it so easy, and look at us now!"  This is false.  Your generation has not fought a war.  Your generation has never been without technology on a very modern scale.  Your generation has never lived without modern comforts such as air conditioning.  Your generation has always known a fairly high minimum wage.  More of you will finish high school; more of you will go on to higher education.  Thing is, you're the first generation not to have much of a sense of previous generations' struggles, and that's a big part of why you think the world is so tough on you.   

    Self-employed-swami

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #108 on: September 21, 2013, 06:02:12 PM »

    And the thing is, that for my generation we HAVE got ahead relatively quickly, because we've had the mining boom in Australia. Now that it's potentially ending... I don't wanna know what will happen for a lot of people my age who have never experienced any hardship at all.


    Same for me here.  I am now in charge of multi-million dollar projects, because so many people left the industry when it went bust, that I now have the experience to be where I am at.  And now that we are booming again, all you need is a pulse for an entry-level position, so anyone with skills and experience, will rise through the ranks pretty quickly.

    grantmeaname

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #109 on: September 21, 2013, 06:28:02 PM »
    Thing is, we had heard the word NO in our childhood...You Yers tend to look at the world and think, "Other generations had it so easy, and look at us now!"  This is false.
    Your post is divisive, dismissive, condescending, and entirely wrong all at once! Congratulations!

    Quote
    Your generation has not fought a war.
    O rly?

    Quote
    Your generation has never been without technology on a very modern scale.
    That's tautological. Your great grandparents could have said the same thing to your grandparents.

    Quote
    Your generation has never lived without modern comforts such as air conditioning.
    Many of us have. And again, modern is tautological. Your mom's generation could have bitched that you never lived without running water, and her mom's generation that her children never lived without the automobile, and her mom's generation that her children never lived without the telephone.

    Quote
    Your generation has always known a fairly high minimum wage.
    A cursory use of Google (which apparently your generation doesn't have the benefit of) would show you that we've had it the worst of anyone, and you grew up with nearly the highest minimum wage in modern history, while the job I worked in high school was literally the lowest. And that's before you take into account that the things that young people buy, like college educations, have been growing much faster than inflation. When my dad cleaned fryers in Hardee's in 1982 he made several times what I did in terms of purchasing power. You could always ignore that when it inconveniences your argument, though.


    Quote
    More of you will finish high school;

    That's an interesting opinion. Have any facts to support it, or counteract the two long-term historical studies just published that say otherwise? It looks awfully flat to me.


    Quote
    Thing is, you're the first generation not to have much of a sense of previous generations' struggles, and that's a big part of why you think the world is so tough on you.
    Do you have any evidence to support that assertion other than all the patently untrue things you just said?

    RetiredAt63

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #110 on: September 22, 2013, 08:06:45 AM »
    Wow this topic is all over the place. Let's have a bit of historical perspective. Sorry this is a bit long, history takes time.

    A friend is 10 years older than me - she had no problems finding a good job right out of high school; that was the mid 60s so she would be pre-boomer (born in 1940, she is 73 now). When I graduated university in '72, jobs were far and few between (yes I am a Boomer, there were too many of us for entry-level jobs and we competed with each other a lot).   Lots of us went to grad school because we had to do something - and I grabbed the first job I was offered when I graduated.  So did my husband.  After working a few years we bought a house - we could afford one because 1. We had been saving, and 2. the Parti Quebecois had been elected for the first time in Quebec, and a lot of people went down the 401 - we paid $3000 less for our house than the previous owners had, and that is 1977 dollars.  In the 1980s mortgage interest rates went to 19-22%, our 8% mortgage rate looked good.  So did we have it rough?

    Well, look at my parents' lives.  My Dad survived the Spanish flu epidemic - his parents did not and he was raised by an aunt. That was not unusual, the biggest mortality rate was for young adults.  He was refused military service 3 times in WWII because he was in an essential civilian occupation - which meant he was on the first convoy through the Mediterranean in 1942(?), the ship next to his was shot and limped to Tripoli.  He went to Bahrain, and then California, back to Montreal in '47 - where he shared an apartment with three other guys when he was 32 (not 22), and had to turn down a job offer because the salary was so low he would have been losing money (bus fare was too much).  At the same time my father-in-law was safely sitting in Saskatchewan teaching flying, but because he was armed forces he got all the military benefits (including major health care near the end of his life) that my father was not eligible for.  However, my Dad thought his generation got the bargain for Canada Pension Plan, that the ones that lived a long time got out a lot more than they put in.  He was sorry for my generation, we have been paying CPP all our lives and now everyone complains about our "entitlement".  Well, is it entitlement to use something you have been paying for? 

    Female side - my Mom married late, because all the men were overseas while she was in her peak marrying years.  When she did get married, in 1949, she had to quit her job - married women didn't work because they were not allowed to.  She was OK with that because she was moving from Toronto to Montreal - but if they had stayed in Toronto and she had wanted to keep working, she would have had to hide her marriage. - lots of women who needed the money did just that.  Her boss (she worked at a bank) made sure she had a pre-nup,  because family property laws in 1949 were horribly biased. 

    So I was able to go to grad school as a married woman, get a job as a married woman, work all my life at something that used my education and I liked doing - so did I have it rough? No.  The fact that everything in our apartment when we were  grad students was hand-me-downs was fine, we were all poor broke grad students.  No cell phones and their bills - didn't exist.  No home computers and internet bills - didn't exist.  Cheap bar at school, softball in the summer, we sound like "Little House on the Prairie" but we made our own fun. And we were  broke - my first pay check went to clothes suitable to wear to work, almost all I had were clothes that could survive lab work.

    And for those of you longing for the day when one parent could stay home with the kids - that is great if that is your choice, but for many women in the 50's and 60's that was not by choice, that was the only option.  Why do you think the feminist movement started with educated middle-class women?  Because they were socially isolated and felt like their brains were rotting.  No internet, remember? Long distance phone calls were super expensive.  Usually one car families, and the husband had the car for work - she had no transportation, suburbs were not designed for walking any distance (stores were not close).  Children are wonderful but not great conversationalists.  When their husbands got home, they expected dinner to be ready and were tired of talking all day at work, so were not great company either.  And this was the norm - I had a friend tell me, when we were in High School, that I was abnormal because I wanted to continue my education instead of getting married and having kids.  I wasn't even dating at that point!

    I stayed home with our daughter on maternity leave, and I loved it, and I also loved it when I went back to work.  Yeah, adults! Talk about things that mattered to me. Funny story as illustration, I remember going to lunch with a colleague at a nice little tea room, and one of our conversational topics was IVF in lab rabbits - we just hoped no-one else could hear us.  I didn't have conversations like that with a 2 year old.

    And we are all lucky - my grandfather was one of 13 children - 11 survived to adulthood.  The generation before, if you had 13 children, you were lucky if 2 or 3 survived to adulthood.  My Mom's family has a memorial obelisk in the local cemetary, from back in the 1800s - 6 children in one grave, just their names and ages, not dates - all gone in an epidemic. 

    So really what I am trying to get at here, is that every generation has trials and tribulations - but we have good public health care, a Walkerton is a big scandal instead of just more lethal summer flu.  We are not living in 1348, when Europe was about to be hit by the Black Death and lose half the population.  We have such material richness in our lives that the difficult thing is to not get sucked in to buying too much, instead of scrambling to have the basic necessities (and a cell phone is not a necessity).  Life isn't fair, but it is a lot fairer than it used to be.

    OK, I'll get down off my soap box now   ;-)


    daverobev

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #111 on: September 22, 2013, 09:03:33 AM »
    There is a big difference between *choosing* to sign up to the army and then going to Iraq or Afghanistan, and being conscripted.

    Our generation has never seen war - that's not to say some people aren't in the army, but they are there by choice, at least at some point.

    That aside.. there are always opportunities for people willing to work. The major problem as I see it is that too many are pushed to university rather than apprenticeships, and that generally there are too many people for not enough jobs - most of us work in the service sector doing nothing really useful.

    So - I worked in the exhibition industry. When I started, 10+ years ago, we got sacks of mail containing hand-completed forms signing up to go to trade shows, which was then dutifully entered into a database. Recruitment was done by sending out tens of thousands of things in the post, costing - roughly - a GBP each (say $2? Not sure).

    Now? Companies can send MUCH, MUCH more junk via email (the planet is relieved), but with much less human work required.

    So what do we do instead? There is enough food! Not everyone is smart enough to be cutting edge. Working in the fields is hard.

    It's a conundrum.. but it'll fix itself. Come on, clever mustaches - think up a way to employ hundreds of people, doing work that would otherwise not be done, AND paying a living wage. Where does the money come from? I wish I was clever enough to figure it out.

    chasesfish

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #112 on: September 23, 2013, 05:33:12 AM »
    That article is interesting.

    I am a Gen Y employee at work, in an industry that has almost one full generation gap.  Most people are either over 55 or under 40 and it makes for really interesting work dynamics.

    Some of the Gen Y employees "get it", that you have to work your rear end off to build your business and reputation and make a good living.  At the same time, there's a lot of resistance from the top in giving the younger generation the compensation they deserve for their production, just because "it took me 20 years to get that, and they want it at 8".

    The biggest thing companies are going to need to think about with 30 something, valuable employees is offering the time for money trade.  I know in my profession, myself and many others would happily take a 4 day work week for 80% of the pay and 80% of the goals.  For some reason, the stone age thinking of some in HR haven't figured this out.  This is especially true for some of the most productive employees that are giving away a solid 40% of the last money earned to our wonderful government.


    mpbaker22

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #113 on: September 23, 2013, 07:23:01 AM »

    Some of the Gen Y employees "get it", that you have to work your rear end off to build your business and reputation and make a good living.  At the same time, there's a lot of resistance from the top in giving the younger generation the compensation they deserve for their production, just because "it took me 20 years to get that, and they want it at 8".

    Maybe I'm hijacking the thread asking this, but ...
    Do you find that young people who work there butts are off are mostly doing meaningless tasks or is there work actually important, just tedious and boring?  I am in charge of a lot of the BS tasks in my group, but what I've found is that they are both boring and not important.  I didn't run a few reports one month just to see what would happen ... no one noticed.

    Insanity

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #114 on: September 23, 2013, 08:14:27 AM »

    Some of the Gen Y employees "get it", that you have to work your rear end off to build your business and reputation and make a good living.  At the same time, there's a lot of resistance from the top in giving the younger generation the compensation they deserve for their production, just because "it took me 20 years to get that, and they want it at 8".

    Maybe I'm hijacking the thread asking this, but ...
    Do you find that young people who work there butts are off are mostly doing meaningless tasks or is there work actually important, just tedious and boring?  I am in charge of a lot of the BS tasks in my group, but what I've found is that they are both boring and not important.  I didn't run a few reports one month just to see what would happen ... no one noticed.

    Depending on your business, that could be a big mistake.  Where I used to work, we needed reports generated for trending information.  They were not looked at month to month, but at some point certain triggers would raise alerts.  Once these alerts were triggered, that's when the reports were analyzed.  Yes, they should have alerts on the reports actually being generated -- but just be aware there are cases where reports aren't always needed the moment they are generated.

    mpbaker22

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #115 on: September 23, 2013, 08:28:47 AM »

    Some of the Gen Y employees "get it", that you have to work your rear end off to build your business and reputation and make a good living.  At the same time, there's a lot of resistance from the top in giving the younger generation the compensation they deserve for their production, just because "it took me 20 years to get that, and they want it at 8".

    Maybe I'm hijacking the thread asking this, but ...
    Do you find that young people who work there butts are off are mostly doing meaningless tasks or is there work actually important, just tedious and boring?  I am in charge of a lot of the BS tasks in my group, but what I've found is that they are both boring and not important.  I didn't run a few reports one month just to see what would happen ... no one noticed.

    Depending on your business, that could be a big mistake.  Where I used to work, we needed reports generated for trending information.  They were not looked at month to month, but at some point certain triggers would raise alerts.  Once these alerts were triggered, that's when the reports were analyzed.  Yes, they should have alerts on the reports actually being generated -- but just be aware there are cases where reports aren't always needed the moment they are generated.

    I can assure you my area's lack of IT understanding totally disqualifies any sort of monthly analysis over multiple reports.

    MrsPete

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #116 on: September 23, 2013, 08:37:37 AM »
    Thing is, we had heard the word NO in our childhood...You Yers tend to look at the world and think, "Other generations had it so easy, and look at us now!"  This is false.
    Your post is divisive, dismissive, condescending, and entirely wrong all at once! Congratulations!

    Quote
    Your generation has not fought a war.
    O rly?

    Quote
    Your generation has never been without technology on a very modern scale.
    That's tautological. Your great grandparents could have said the same thing to your grandparents.

    Quote
    Your generation has never lived without modern comforts such as air conditioning.
    Many of us have. And again, modern is tautological. Your mom's generation could have bitched that you never lived without running water, and her mom's generation that her children never lived without the automobile, and her mom's generation that her children never lived without the telephone.

    Quote
    Your generation has always known a fairly high minimum wage.
    A cursory use of Google (which apparently your generation doesn't have the benefit of) would show you that we've had it the worst of anyone, and you grew up with nearly the highest minimum wage in modern history, while the job I worked in high school was literally the lowest. And that's before you take into account that the things that young people buy, like college educations, have been growing much faster than inflation. When my dad cleaned fryers in Hardee's in 1982 he made several times what I did in terms of purchasing power. You could always ignore that when it inconveniences your argument, though.


    Quote
    More of you will finish high school;

    That's an interesting opinion. Have any facts to support it, or counteract the two long-term historical studies just published that say otherwise? It looks awfully flat to me.


    Quote
    Thing is, you're the first generation not to have much of a sense of previous generations' struggles, and that's a big part of why you think the world is so tough on you.
    Do you have any evidence to support that assertion other than all the patently untrue things you just said?
    Your post and your dismissal of anyone older than yourself reminds me of a mistake that I made when I was 9-10:  I was having significant trouble grasping the concept of fractions.  Math had always come easily to me, so I was doubly frustrated that this new idea just didn't make sense.  I asked my mom for help, and she told me to ask an elderly relative who was staying with us at the time.  I complained to my mom, "She's 80-something.  What would she know about fractions?  They weren't even invented when she was in school."  My mom assured me that the aforementioned relative would be of great help to me, so -- left without options -- I asked her help.  She explained the concepts to me, and I went away understanding fractions.  However, the biggest lesson had nothing to do with math, and I was ashamed that I had acted foolishly.  What I really learned was that I shouldn't be so quick to judge who's capable and who's intelligent based upon age. 

    I was fortunate to learn that lesson early.  I didn't have to be spanked in public to learn to value all my fellow students and co-workers, but I've seen other people suffer because they didn't pick up on it.  Sure, you'll find an occasional individual who is behind, but age isn't often the determining factor.

    I teach 17-18 year olds (Gen Yers, only a few years younger than you).  When it comes to technical ability, they seem to be divided into thirds:

    The top third is very comfortable with technology.  They can manipulate files, troubleshoot for problems, might even understand a bit of programming.  Many of them are attracted to my tech-heavy class.  They see computers as wonderful machines, and they understand that they must approach them logically and follow every step, or things will go wrong -- but they see themselves as the masters of these helpful tools. 
    The middle third can operate computer programs . . . as long as they work properly, but when something goes wrong, they are lost and must ask help.  They view computers as useful tools, but also as complicated machines beyond their comprehension.  When they can't make the computer do what they want, they tend to try the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.   
    The bottom third is woefully ill-equipped with all things computer-related.  They can use Google and surf the net, but they fall short on simple things like printing only the first page of a multi-page document, installing a scanner to their computer, formatting a page in a word processing program.  Frequently they simply don't bother to read the instructions on the page because they figure it's all just too hard anyway.  They have no problem with texting and surfing the net, but even slightly complicated tasks such as attaching a file to an email or setting up an Excel file confound them.   

    As I look at my co-workers (who are mostly 25-55), 100% of them are in the top two-thirds:  all of them are able to use computers proficiently.  Few of them are at the bottom of the "lost when things go wrong" category.  The difference here is that 100% of my co-workers have college degrees.  The variable here isn't age; it's intelligence and education. 

    As for minimum wage, I'm not sure why you're bringing up a chart about poverty levels.  That doesn't address how many people were employed at minimum wage vs. how many were in poverty.  From personal, antidotal experience, I disagree with the idea that purchasing power has decreased.  To give just one example, when I was in college and minimum wage was $3.35, a McDonald's value meal was about $3.50 -- so a meal cost about one hour's labor.  Today minimum wage is $7.25 in my state, and a value meal is about $5.50, meaning that it can be earned in about 45 minutes.  I can think of dozens of other examples. 

    The chart you shared doesn't reflect the reality of my state's graduation rate.  A full third of my high school class dropped out; today our graduation rate hovers around 88-90%.  Part of this is that special ed students tend to stay through high school, pregnant girls who choose to carry to term now finish school at a greater rate, and the manual labor jobs that existed in the past are disappearing, so what worked for someone in the past is no longer effective.  That's the difficulty with averages. They can mask the big picture. 

    Yes, every generation has experienced an increase in technology -- you're repeating my point.  But many GenYers are "blowing off" their benefits, as if they're not useful to you.  You're ignoring your generation's perks, while expounding upon your negatives. 

    My big point, again, is that every generation has had perks.  And every generation has had its challenges.  You are not unique in this. 

    MrsPete

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #117 on: September 23, 2013, 08:43:54 AM »
    Wow this topic is all over the place. Let's have a bit of historical perspective. Sorry this is a bit long, history takes time.

    A friend is 10 years older than me - she had no problems finding a good job right out of high school; that was the mid 60s so she would be pre-boomer (born in 1940, she is 73 now). When I graduated university in '72, jobs were far and few between (yes I am a Boomer, there were too many of us for entry-level jobs and we competed with each other a lot).   Lots of us went to grad school because we had to do something - and I grabbed the first job I was offered when I graduated.  So did my husband.  After working a few years we bought a house - we could afford one because 1. We had been saving, and 2. the Parti Quebecois had been elected for the first time in Quebec, and a lot of people went down the 401 - we paid $3000 less for our house than the previous owners had, and that is 1977 dollars.  In the 1980s mortgage interest rates went to 19-22%, our 8% mortgage rate looked good.  So did we have it rough?

    Well, look at my parents' lives.  My Dad survived the Spanish flu epidemic - his parents did not and he was raised by an aunt. That was not unusual, the biggest mortality rate was for young adults.  He was refused military service 3 times in WWII because he was in an essential civilian occupation - which meant he was on the first convoy through the Mediterranean in 1942(?), the ship next to his was shot and limped to Tripoli.  He went to Bahrain, and then California, back to Montreal in '47 - where he shared an apartment with three other guys when he was 32 (not 22), and had to turn down a job offer because the salary was so low he would have been losing money (bus fare was too much).  At the same time my father-in-law was safely sitting in Saskatchewan teaching flying, but because he was armed forces he got all the military benefits (including major health care near the end of his life) that my father was not eligible for.  However, my Dad thought his generation got the bargain for Canada Pension Plan, that the ones that lived a long time got out a lot more than they put in.  He was sorry for my generation, we have been paying CPP all our lives and now everyone complains about our "entitlement".  Well, is it entitlement to use something you have been paying for? 

    Female side - my Mom married late, because all the men were overseas while she was in her peak marrying years.  When she did get married, in 1949, she had to quit her job - married women didn't work because they were not allowed to.  She was OK with that because she was moving from Toronto to Montreal - but if they had stayed in Toronto and she had wanted to keep working, she would have had to hide her marriage. - lots of women who needed the money did just that.  Her boss (she worked at a bank) made sure she had a pre-nup,  because family property laws in 1949 were horribly biased. 

    So I was able to go to grad school as a married woman, get a job as a married woman, work all my life at something that used my education and I liked doing - so did I have it rough? No.  The fact that everything in our apartment when we were  grad students was hand-me-downs was fine, we were all poor broke grad students.  No cell phones and their bills - didn't exist.  No home computers and internet bills - didn't exist.  Cheap bar at school, softball in the summer, we sound like "Little House on the Prairie" but we made our own fun. And we were  broke - my first pay check went to clothes suitable to wear to work, almost all I had were clothes that could survive lab work.

    And for those of you longing for the day when one parent could stay home with the kids - that is great if that is your choice, but for many women in the 50's and 60's that was not by choice, that was the only option.  Why do you think the feminist movement started with educated middle-class women?  Because they were socially isolated and felt like their brains were rotting.  No internet, remember? Long distance phone calls were super expensive.  Usually one car families, and the husband had the car for work - she had no transportation, suburbs were not designed for walking any distance (stores were not close).  Children are wonderful but not great conversationalists.  When their husbands got home, they expected dinner to be ready and were tired of talking all day at work, so were not great company either.  And this was the norm - I had a friend tell me, when we were in High School, that I was abnormal because I wanted to continue my education instead of getting married and having kids.  I wasn't even dating at that point!

    I stayed home with our daughter on maternity leave, and I loved it, and I also loved it when I went back to work.  Yeah, adults! Talk about things that mattered to me. Funny story as illustration, I remember going to lunch with a colleague at a nice little tea room, and one of our conversational topics was IVF in lab rabbits - we just hoped no-one else could hear us.  I didn't have conversations like that with a 2 year old.

    And we are all lucky - my grandfather was one of 13 children - 11 survived to adulthood.  The generation before, if you had 13 children, you were lucky if 2 or 3 survived to adulthood.  My Mom's family has a memorial obelisk in the local cemetary, from back in the 1800s - 6 children in one grave, just their names and ages, not dates - all gone in an epidemic. 

    So really what I am trying to get at here, is that every generation has trials and tribulations - but we have good public health care, a Walkerton is a big scandal instead of just more lethal summer flu.  We are not living in 1348, when Europe was about to be hit by the Black Death and lose half the population.  We have such material richness in our lives that the difficult thing is to not get sucked in to buying too much, instead of scrambling to have the basic necessities (and a cell phone is not a necessity).  Life isn't fair, but it is a lot fairer than it used to be.

    OK, I'll get down off my soap box now   ;-)
    Yes, I could list similar statistics about my family:  My grandfather was one of ten children.  When his parents died within months of one another, the oldest children were forced to take in their younger siblings (or see them go to an orphanage, which would've been unthinkable).  While this wasn't an unusual situation for those days, suddenly becoming the "parents" of several children (one of who was only weeks old) had to be difficult for newlyweds.  Today those parents would've been saved by medical technology.  And they probably wouldn't have been dealing with ten children in the first place. 

    When my grandfather needed to go to town, he'd be gone three days.  Today I can be there, do my business, and back in an hour and a half. 

    And, yes, women have options.  Ditto for minorities. 

    Don't overlook the benefits of living in today's world.  In so many ways, it is kinder and gentler than that of previous generations. 

    arebelspy

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #118 on: September 23, 2013, 08:54:44 AM »
    Your post and your dismissal of anyone older than yourself reminds me of a mistake that I made when I was 9-10:  I was having significant trouble grasping the concept of fractions.  Math had always come easily to me, so I was doubly frustrated that this new idea just didn't make sense.  I asked my mom for help, and she told me to ask an elderly relative who was staying with us at the time.  I complained to my mom, "She's 80-something.  What would she know about fractions?  They weren't even invented when she was in school."  My mom assured me that the aforementioned relative would be of great help to me, so -- left without options -- I asked her help.  She explained the concepts to me, and I went away understanding fractions.  However, the biggest lesson had nothing to do with math, and I was ashamed that I had acted foolishly.  What I really learned was that I shouldn't be so quick to judge who's capable and who's intelligent based upon age. 

    I was fortunate to learn that lesson early.  I didn't have to be spanked in public to learn to value all my fellow students and co-workers, but I've seen other people suffer because they didn't pick up on it.  Sure, you'll find an occasional individual who is behind, but age isn't often the determining factor.

    I don't know where you got all this from?

    Grant wasn't dismissive of your post because you are older than him.  Hell, he wasn't dismissive of it at all, but addressed each point in it.  Then you ignored all of his points, posted a story about fractions and about technology that may be somewhat relevant to the thread, but, again, ignored all of his points.

    Grant has shown an ability far more than most posters on the internet to reconsider his position and change his mind, regardless of the age of anyone he's discussing things with.

    I'm just so thoroughly lost by where you came up with this, it's ridiculous.
    I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
    If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
    I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

    mpbaker22

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #119 on: September 23, 2013, 09:56:48 AM »
    Your post and your dismissal of anyone older than yourself reminds me of a mistake that I made when I was 9-10:  I was having significant trouble grasping the concept of fractions.  Math had always come easily to me, so I was doubly frustrated that this new idea just didn't make sense.  I asked my mom for help, and she told me to ask an elderly relative who was staying with us at the time.  I complained to my mom, "She's 80-something.  What would she know about fractions?  They weren't even invented when she was in school."  My mom assured me that the aforementioned relative would be of great help to me, so -- left without options -- I asked her help.  She explained the concepts to me, and I went away understanding fractions.  However, the biggest lesson had nothing to do with math, and I was ashamed that I had acted foolishly.  What I really learned was that I shouldn't be so quick to judge who's capable and who's intelligent based upon age. 

    I was fortunate to learn that lesson early.  I didn't have to be spanked in public to learn to value all my fellow students and co-workers, but I've seen other people suffer because they didn't pick up on it.  Sure, you'll find an occasional individual who is behind, but age isn't often the determining factor.

    I don't know where you got all this from?

    Grant wasn't dismissive of your post because you are older than him.  Hell, he wasn't dismissive of it at all, but addressed each point in it.  Then you ignored all of his points, posted a story about fractions and about technology that may be somewhat relevant to the thread, but, again, ignored all of his points.

    Grant has shown an ability far more than most posters on the internet to reconsider his position and change his mind, regardless of the age of anyone he's discussing things with.


    Agreed.  I think the point is that Grant doesn't understand because he isn't capable of comprehending without an 'A-ha' moment.  The irony is Grant gave well-reasoned arguments based on facts, and this response was totally unrelated to anything and based on the same old wive's-tales.



    The top third is very comfortable with technology.  They can manipulate files, troubleshoot for problems, might even understand a bit of programming.  Many of them are attracted to my tech-heavy class.  They see computers as wonderful machines, and they understand that they must approach them logically and follow every step, or things will go wrong -- but they see themselves as the masters of these helpful tools.
    On this specific point, I disagree.  First off, anyone who uses computers semi-intelligently knows that following 'every step' is usually the worst way to do things ... there's almost always a short cut.


    Other than that, the post seemed like a whole lot of nonsense that didn't address what Grant had to say.

    (Mod Edit: Fixed quote tag.)
    « Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 06:44:55 PM by arebelspy »

    Jamesqf

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #120 on: September 23, 2013, 11:44:28 AM »
    There is a big difference between *choosing* to sign up to the army and then going to Iraq or Afghanistan, and being conscripted.

    Good point.  Yes, there's a war on today (see the current news from Kenya, for instance).  The difference between this and previous generations is that those on the front lines are all volunteers, not conscripts.

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #121 on: September 23, 2013, 12:55:23 PM »
    No, I don't think you're going to be stuck paying for individuals who didn't save.  Those individuals will be screwed.  They may keep working longer than they want, they may turn to reverse mortgages, they may end up in lackluster state nursing homes, or they may end up becoming a burden to their children . . . or some combination of ways to get by.   

    Of all the things said in this thread, this one bothered me the most. What do you mean Gen Y won't be paying for individuals who didn't save? You said yourself that Baby Boomers and Gen Xers may end up in lackluster nursing homes or become a burden to their children. How do you think it is possible that we, THEIR CHILDREN, won't be involved in paying, both monetarily and emotionally, for those who didn't save? Of course we will. I'm not saying we are the only generation to struggle - that is both short-sided and ridiculous - but we are paying, I'll bet my life on it.

    chasesfish

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #122 on: September 23, 2013, 06:38:45 PM »

    Some of the Gen Y employees "get it", that you have to work your rear end off to build your business and reputation and make a good living.  At the same time, there's a lot of resistance from the top in giving the younger generation the compensation they deserve for their production, just because "it took me 20 years to get that, and they want it at 8".

    Maybe I'm hijacking the thread asking this, but ...
    Do you find that young people who work there butts are off are mostly doing meaningless tasks or is there work actually important, just tedious and boring?  I am in charge of a lot of the BS tasks in my group, but what I've found is that they are both boring and not important.  I didn't run a few reports one month just to see what would happen ... no one noticed.

    No, most is very productive and important work.  The tedious and boring pieces are compliance

    grantmeaname

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #123 on: September 23, 2013, 07:02:32 PM »
    your dismissal of anyone older than yourself
    Quote
    What I really learned was that I shouldn't be so quick to judge who's capable and who's intelligent based upon age. 
    Quote
    You're ignoring your generation's perks, while expounding upon your negatives.
    Could you point me to where I said anything of the sort? Hell, the whole I reason I entered this thread was to support the notion that everyone should give everyone else a little more respect rather than insult entire groups of people based on broad and generally untrue generalizations. If you go back and reread my post you'll see that that isn't what I'm saying at all, and the only time I even brought up my generation's economic circumstance was to refute your "facts" with real ones.
    « Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 07:16:45 PM by grantmeaname »

    Insanity

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #125 on: September 25, 2013, 08:07:14 AM »
    Because it stereotypes young people?

    pachnik

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #126 on: September 25, 2013, 09:15:13 AM »
    Because it stereotypes young people?

    Unfortunately, only the bad behaviour makes it onto the news.  All of the younger people (20s and early 30s) I know - children of my friends and extended family on my husband's side of the family - are really great.  Hard-working, volunteering, studying to get better jobs, some are starting their families early in life and they won't make it onto the news.  What a shame. 
    « Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 09:23:27 AM by pachnik »

    MrsPete

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #127 on: September 26, 2013, 01:30:40 PM »
    Grant wasn't dismissive of your post because you are older than him.  Hell, he wasn't dismissive of it at all, but addressed each point in it.  Then you ignored all of his points, posted a story about fractions and about technology that may be somewhat relevant to the thread, but, again, ignored all of his points.
    So the comment about my generation not being able to use Google was a compliment?  Wow, I missed that.  The story was an analogy. 
    Of all the things said in this thread, this one bothered me the most. What do you mean Gen Y won't be paying for individuals who didn't save? You said yourself that Baby Boomers and Gen Xers may end up in lackluster nursing homes or become a burden to their children. How do you think it is possible that we, THEIR CHILDREN, won't be involved in paying, both monetarily and emotionally, for those who didn't save? Of course we will. I'm not saying we are the only generation to struggle - that is both short-sided and ridiculous - but we are paying, I'll bet my life on it.
    I worded that poorly:  I don't think the government is going to force us all to pay for the Boomers who didn't save -- that is, I don't think we'll be supporting strangers (any more than we already are).  I do think that we as individuals may end up taking in family members who aren't prepared financially for retirement.  Those individuals will be able to "make it" on Social Security if they move in with their children (which is a burden to the individual families, if mom moves in but can't pay anything).   

    But you're echoing my main sentiment:  Every generation has struggled in some way. 
    your dismissal of anyone older than yourself
    Quote
    What I really learned was that I shouldn't be so quick to judge who's capable and who's intelligent based upon age. 
    Quote
    You're ignoring your generation's perks, while expounding upon your negatives.
    Could you point me to where I said anything of the sort? Hell, the whole I reason I entered this thread was to support the notion that everyone should give everyone else a little more respect rather than insult entire groups of people based on broad and generally untrue generalizations. If you go back and reread my post you'll see that that isn't what I'm saying at all, and the only time I even brought up my generation's economic circumstance was to refute your "facts" with real ones.
    That was your goal?  Yes, I could bring up some points, but instead I'm just going to leave this thread.  No point in saying the same things again.


    happy

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #128 on: September 27, 2013, 03:47:54 AM »
    Open disclosure: I'm 54. I'm a late boomer.

    1. I thought it was funny in a light hearted way (ie I didn't really take it seriously, nor did I think it was meant to be taken seriously) and am blown away by all the bickering.
    2. I think some of the intergenerational issues are actually societal ones and may be explained at least in part by the notion of the Risk Society - the work of 2 sociologists, Beck and Giddins (all generations here can Wiki it, no?) in response to post modernism, deconstructionism etc.
    3. Don't mess with Grant unless you can really sustain your argument in a rigorous fashion.

    Shields raised now I'm entering the GenX/Y asteroid belt..Out Picard.


    Edit to add:
    A more interesting/productive discussion might be based on to what extent is a generation responsible for the decisions/directions/outcomes of its time. Is it the responsibility of the leaders? The people who voted them in? Is a generation just responding/dealing with the situation/context they find themselves in?  How should a generation best wield their collective power/responsibility? Are mustachians responsible for our consumerist society's "degenerate" ways, just because we live now by an accident of history?
    « Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 04:40:39 AM by happy »

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #129 on: September 27, 2013, 04:59:40 PM »
    Your post and your dismissal of anyone older than yourself

    I have to agree with arebelspy. Grant was not dismissive. He addressed each of your points with data, not anecdote. I'm not sure in what world view that is dismissive.

    As for minimum wage, I'm not sure why you're bringing up a chart about poverty levels.  That doesn't address how many people were employed at minimum wage vs. how many were in poverty. From personal, antidotal experience, I disagree with the idea that purchasing power has decreased.
     

    Agreed that posting the rate of poverty is not a compelling argument when discussing the minimum wage, although they may be related. Inflation adjusted the federal minimum wage has fallen since 1968 (the last year for which I dug up data). Today I learned that adjusting for inflation the minimum wage from 1968 would be $10.74.

    http://www.raisetheminimumwage.com/facts/entry/amount-with-inflation/

    The chart you shared doesn't reflect the reality of my state's graduation rate.

    In your state your original assertion, that more of Gen Y will graduate high school than previous generations, is probably correct. Your state reported its highest ever 4 year graduation rate (since the state has been keeping track). It is unbelievable to me that I can't find 4 year high school graduation rates for North Carolina that predate 2006, but it is true. Regardless, over 80% of students graduated in 2013 which was up from approximately 68% in 2006. Based on data from the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) I have confidence that the trend, while not linear, probably extends back past 2006. I have a hard time believing a state that did not even bother to keep track of 4 year graduation rates would have a higher 4 year graduation rate than 80%.

    http://www.ncpublicschools.org/accountability/reporting/cohortgradrate

    That said, Grant has a point about the national trend. Graduation rates do appear to have leveled off some time ago.

    Yes, every generation has experienced an increase in technology -- you're repeating my point.  But many GenYers are "blowing off" their benefits, as if they're not useful to you.  You're ignoring your generation's perks, while expounding upon your negatives. 

    I would suggest a larger sample size than your corner of North Carolina. Things look very different out here in Washington State. The number of young professionals in engineering and computing professions likely disproves this hypothesis. I doubt "many" more Gen Y, as a percentage of their population, are blowing off new technology more than any previous generation.

    My big point, again, is that every generation has had perks.  And every generation has had its challenges.  You are not unique in this.

    This I can agree with.

    I would say that Gen Y doesn't have it especially cushy. The increasing level of wealth accumulation at the top and the destabilizing effects of globalization have very real and profound impacts for Gen Y.

    grantmeaname

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #130 on: September 28, 2013, 06:33:38 AM »
    So the comment about my generation not being able to use Google was a compliment?
    It was more than just a cheap shot about your use of technology, which I think you've demonstrated is perfectly adequate. What I'm saying is that it seems you're unwilling to let facts impede on your opinions or update your beliefs based on the fact that the world is changing, or do a little research to see if the reality of the nation matches the handful of anecdotes you've collected during your lifetime.

    1. I thought it was funny in a light hearted way (ie I didn't really take it seriously, nor did I think it was meant to be taken seriously) and am blown away by all the bickering.
    I agree that that was the intended tone, but it missed a little for me (not that "I didn't find it funny" is a fault for an article - tastes vary). As far as I can tell, the bickering in this thread is largely about Mustachians' stereotypes about other generations, not the article itself.
    Quote
    2. I think some of the intergenerational issues are actually societal ones and may be explained at least in part by the notion of the Risk Society - the work of 2 sociologists, Beck and Giddins (all generations here can Wiki it, no?) in response to post modernism, deconstructionism etc.
    Interesting wiki article. It meshes well with the heavy dependence of the disciplines of economics and finance on risk. But I'm not really following what you mean - just that the mismatch of expectations about jobs and 'generational' customs is a fact of modernity?

    As for minimum wage, I'm not sure why you're bringing up a chart about poverty levels.  That doesn't address how many people were employed at minimum wage vs. how many were in poverty. From personal, antidotal experience, I disagree with the idea that purchasing power has decreased.
      Agreed that posting the rate of poverty is not a compelling argument when discussing the minimum wage, although they may be related. Inflation adjusted the federal minimum wage has fallen since 1968 (the last year for which I dug up data). Today I learned that adjusting for inflation the minimum wage from 1968 would be $10.74.
    Sorry, I thought the graph had a title but I didn't double check before I attached it. The graph is minimum wage, expressed as a percent of poverty levels. Effectively, it's just real minimum wage adjusted for the goods that the lower class buys rather than a more generic CPI measure. Here is the site it came from.

    arebelspy

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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #131 on: September 28, 2013, 08:25:04 AM »
    So the comment about my generation not being able to use Google was a compliment?
    It was more than just a cheap shot about your use of technology, which I think you've demonstrated is perfectly adequate. What I'm saying is that it seems you're unwilling to let facts impede on your opinions or update your beliefs based on the fact that the world is changing, or do a little research to see if the reality of the nation matches the handful of anecdotes you've collected during your lifetime.

    Maybe you meant all the deep meaning latter stuff, but it came off as a cheap shot (towards MrsPete, not the whole generation).

    As I said, I didn't think your post dismissed thoughts from anyone older than you, and you went on to address a bunch of points, but that was a bit catty ("which apparently your generation can't do" - based on your seeming ineptitude - was the message sent).
    I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
    If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
    I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

    happy

    • Walrus Stache
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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #132 on: September 29, 2013, 07:55:50 AM »

    1. I thought it was funny in a light hearted way (ie I didn't really take it seriously, nor did I think it was meant to be taken seriously) and am blown away by all the bickering.
    I agree that that was the intended tone, but it missed a little for me (not that "I didn't find it funny" is a fault for an article - tastes vary). As far as I can tell, the bickering in this thread is largely about Mustachians' stereotypes about other generations, not the article itself.

    Yes I agree, the bickering is largely about stereotypic generational differences, BUT framed in terns of blame and shame. Thats why I framed the questions in my edit. Rather than throw mud at each other (whether factual  or anecdotal  mud), it would be more productive to discuss notions of individual and generational responsibility. (Maybe thats just my interest in history of ideas emerging.)

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    2. I think some of the intergenerational issues are actually societal ones and may be explained at least in part by the notion of the Risk Society - the work of 2 sociologists, Beck and Giddins (all generations here can Wiki it, no?) in response to post modernism, deconstructionism etc.
    Interesting wiki article. It meshes well with the heavy dependence of the disciplines of economics and finance on risk. But I'm not really following what you mean - just that the mismatch of expectations about jobs and 'generational' customs is a fact of modernity?

    Yes plus.
    Beck focused on macro aspects. Giddins was more interested in the individual. The traditional modern view on roles/jobs/selfidentity etc was largely that of cultural inheritance.."you are a baker's son, you are a working class person who makes bread". With postmodernity these traditional identities were shattered and the baby boomers are the generation that straddle this. It was no longer necessary to be a baker because your family were bakers or a homemaker because you were a woman. Giddens proposes that this led to a concern with "life style" and "life choice" and more existential questions of identity and meaning. I do think the emergence of the psychology of hope  in the 1970s and onwards (Power of Positive Thinking and Learned Optimism for example) was also influential.

    Hence as seen in the original video: "you're special", "you can do /be anything you want" is a solution ( along the line of reflexive modernisation proposed by Beck and Giddens) to the problems emerging from post modernism.

    So in concrete terms the boomers were saying postmodernism is good, question everything, but actually now that we've deconstructed everything WTF do we do now? Aww yeah that's right we're all special and individually unique. But WTF does that mean? Not sure but if we keep saying it for long enough maybe we'll figure it out.

    GenX/Y/Z I think in the last decade have truly developed the capacity to reconstruct/change things up etc  largely free from modern constraints in a way boomers could never manage. (look where a mobile phone has ended up: for a boomer a mobile phone is a single function device, like a watch, but for my kids a mobile phone can largely do anything you can dream it can do) But  the "you're special", "you can do /be anything you want" proposed by the boomers, never was intended to mean "and you can have everything you want" which I think has been popularised by media/advertising/consumerism.

    The notion of generational responsibility/ Great Man theory etc  has probably been around for a while but in recent times the environmental movement has strongly promoted the concepts of generational responsibility... and I wonder if this is where the popular notion that the boomers have lived the high life and used everything up  has arisen from. The solutions more productively lie with Green Power  ( again Beck, Risk Society  and reflexive modernisation) not just blaming the boomers  for being greedy, being bitter and having a sulk.

    StarswirlTheMustached

    • Bristles
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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #133 on: September 30, 2013, 06:39:11 AM »
    I cannot say I expected so much 'sound and fury' in this thread.
    I have a question: if every trusted authority tells you, daily, for decades, that the world works a certain way, and lays out the path to success -- if you follow that path, to the letter, is it 'entitlement' to expect what you were promised? When blamed for the failure, is it not natural to feel resentment?

    If gen-Y is entitled*, ask who gave it a sense of entitlement. Take the log from your own eye! I hear a lot of ''those darned kids'' as though they were born that way. Who raised them that way?

    * there are whiny shits born every year. The trend is just to focus on the most recent bunch.

    Jamesqf

    • Magnum Stache
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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #134 on: September 30, 2013, 12:20:38 PM »
    ...if every trusted authority tells you, daily, for decades, that the world works a certain way, and lays out the path to success...

    Question authority!

    Mae80s

    • 5 O'Clock Shadow
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    Re: Generation Y and let downs..
    « Reply #135 on: September 30, 2013, 12:52:46 PM »
    Interesting thread. I'm an early Gen-Y (born in 1982) and I'm getting really tired of the inter-generational stereotypes and blaming that both groups do to each other. Not just on this thread, but everywhere in the media.

    Is rising income inequality and wage stagnation an issue? Absolutely. For everyone, young, old, present and the future.  It affects all of us and (IMO) we should all be concerned. Don't waste energy fighting and blaming each other.