Gender construction and expense reduction

[spartana]

I'll admit that I've never had anything professionally done - no manicures, pedicures, etc and have only had my hair "done" one time. And that was very expensive and took forever and looked terrible. So money saved but I don't think I'm missing out on much.

[Metalcat]

I'll admit that I've never had anything professionally done - no manicures, pedicures, etc and have only had my hair "done" one time. And that was very expensive and took forever and looked terrible. So money saved but I don't think I'm missing out on much.

Yeah, I despise having my hair done. But pedicures aren't getting your toenails done, I never get any nail polish or anything, although you can. It's more like a solid 40 minute foot bath with extensive foot and calf massaging and exfoliating.

If you work on your feet at all, it's 1000% worth it, and not terribly expensive either for a major luxury treatment. Not if you go to the little Vietnamese places. Somehow Vietnamese immigrant women frickin' revolutionized nail spas and turned pedicures into a totally affordable luxury.

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/19/724452398/how-vietnamese-americans-took-over-the-nails-business-a-documentary

[Kris]

Fun!  A man telling women that our lives aren't affected if we don't spend money on all the things for which women and not men are judged.   

I once worked at a place that required women to wear pantyhose if they were in skirts or even in capri pants.  No bare women ankles allowed. Pantyhose are expensive, and for me at least, rarely last more than 3 wears.  Of course, we could instead wear pants, but that's just one example--men are not required to wear essentially disposable socks by any dress code with which I'm familiar. 

The cut of men's clothing is also more forgiving.  As has been mentioned, that means that gaining even 7-8 pounds means the pants that looked great now look awful and unprofessional.  And it also means that just finding clothes that fit well is far more difficult than most men's clothing.  And often requires expensive tailoring to fit well.

A properly fitting bra costs me $70+.  And lasts no more than 12 months (and that's if I have several in the rotation, extending its life). And no, there are not cheaper options.  (There are plenty of more expensive options though.)  So my bra budget alone for a year is probably $210.  And, given the start of this thread, I suppose I should mention that this isn't just vanity.  It's very uncomfortable for me not to wear a bra.  that's would be expensive.  Additionally,  without a bra, clothing would never fit properly.  And I can assure you that given the size of my breasts, if I were to go to most places ignoring the physicaly discomfort and forgoing a bra, people would absolutely find it inappropriate and unprofessional. 

But yes, I'm just a silly, vain, feminine rube who is foolishly and easily parted with my money.   

(95% of the time, I wear no makeup.  I get haircuts about once a year.  So I'm not exactly a pampered poodle of a woman who is obsessed with how I look and am perceived. But much of this stuff can't be avoided, and that's the point of all of this.  The money women spend on many appearance-related things may be about vanity for some, but there are also much wider, far-reaching, intrinsic implications for forging many of them.  I'd never not wear at modest make-up to a professional, office-type job interview.  Fair or not, chances are it would matter.)

 

And this brings up another facet to the discussion: not all women have the choice about certain purchases and how much it would cost you. Villanelle’s bras are expensive as shit and she has to replace them often. I, being less well-endowed, haven’t bought a new bra in….well, since before the pandemic for sure. I work from home, but even if I was still working at an office, my bra situation would still be the same.

These are not advantages/disadvantages that either Villanelle or I have chosen. And there are tons of variables that impact a woman who needs to project a certain image to the world, like boob size, body size, skin color, hair color, hair texture, conventional “beauty” and lord knows how many other factors.

Guys largely get to just… put on the standard uniform for their professional situation, and as long as your hair is combed and you don’t smell, you’re good to go.

[Kris]

I'll admit that I've never had anything professionally done - no manicures, pedicures, etc and have only had my hair "done" one time. And that was very expensive and took forever and looked terrible. So money saved but I don't think I'm missing out on much.

Yeah, I despise having my hair done. But pedicures aren't getting your toenails done, I never get any nail polish or anything, although you can. It's more like a solid 40 minute foot bath with extensive foot and calf massaging and exfoliating.

If you work on your feet at all, it's 1000% worth it, and not terribly expensive either for a major luxury treatment. Not if you go to the little Vietnamese places. Somehow Vietnamese immigrant women frickin' revolutionized nail spas and turned pedicures into a totally affordable luxury.

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/19/724452398/how-vietnamese-americans-took-over-the-nails-business-a-documentary

Oh my god you have just totally tweaked my documentary sweet spot holy shit

[jrhampt]

I have to admit, I thought this post was going to be about doing gender affirming surgery on the cheap.

Hard agree with Laura33

I have not read this entire rage-bait post, but thought I'd respond to you because, I've found in general @Laura33 says what I would have said so +1 to your response. The only thing I'll add is that women do most of the consumer buying for the household so not sure if people are taking that into consideration....walks back slowly into the bushes Homer Simpson style

I clicked on this thread knowing it would be rage bait.  But it prompted a useful realization.

My husband has worn the one suit he owns to the following events: office parties, our wedding, other people's weddings, funerals, formal dinners.  It has been suitable for all seasons and accommodated moderate changes to his waistline due to stress, lifestyle, and aging.

The social and professional cost of not conforming to gender expectations is too high, so I have worn a different dress for each of: office parties, our own wedding, other people's weddings, funerals, formal dinners.  Sometimes I have re-worn something if appropriate, but different seasons have required different attire and footwear.  Feminine clothing is tapered at the midsection and will accommodate limited changes to one's waistline for due to stress, lifestyle, and aging; it will not accommodate the big changes that are inevitable if your body has an extra 30lbs of fetus, blood volume, amniotic fluid, and placenta.  DH and I didn't have the option of sharing the effects of that body change 50-50; he kept wearing his suit, I went clothes shopping.

Perhaps 2024 will be the year I buy one excellent pantsuit and DH and I can be twins forevermore.  I'm an affluent and established middle-aged mother now, I have the social and professional currency to survive a little nonconformity.

Thanks to everyone who made the effort to share perspective on why people behave the way they do.  It is indeed very driven by survival and self-interest.

Yep, thanks to all of the really bright women taking the time to respond here and not letting this thread be a shit show.

You're absolutely right about the consequences professionally and socially of not conforming.

I had to gain A LOT of professional and social power to be able to reject these norms as much as I did. Up until I had all of that clout, I was a strict adherent to the norms and pressures. It felt VERY important.

Then I got to a place where it no longer mattered and I got to breathe freely, chop off all of my hair stop wearing makeup, stop wearing proper bras, and generally show up in work and life looking however the fuck I felt like looking that day.

It was not a choice that was free of consequences, they were just consequences I was readily equipped to manage compared to earlier in my life when there were just so many people above me with power over me.

This is a great point.  It’s a power thing.  Once you get enough power to not have to give a shit, you can be yourself.  Otherwise, not so much.

[spartana]

I'll admit that I've never had anything professionally done - no manicures, pedicures, etc and have only had my hair "done" one time. And that was very expensive and took forever and looked terrible. So money saved but I don't think I'm missing out on much.

Yeah, I despise having my hair done. But pedicures aren't getting your toenails done, I never get any nail polish or anything, although you can. It's more like a solid 40 minute foot bath with extensive foot and calf massaging and exfoliating.

If you work on your feet at all, it's 1000% worth it, and not terribly expensive either for a major luxury treatment. Not if you go to the little Vietnamese places. Somehow Vietnamese immigrant women frickin' revolutionized nail spas and turned pedicures into a totally affordable luxury.

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/19/724452398/how-vietnamese-americans-took-over-the-nails-business-a-documentary

Oh my god you have just totally tweaked my documentary sweet spot holy shit

I lived in Little Saigon in SoCal for about 20 years and the nail salons (and Pho!) are everywhere and look really inexpensive and very nice. I'm just a weirdo about getting stuff like that done but I want to point out to the OP that not all women are spending on all things female-gendered based but that it is definitely NOT illogical in many cases and often needed  in various situations.

[jrhampt]

On pedicures: I skip the pedicure and just get the one hour foot massage.  All the good stuff, none of the nonsense.

[Metalcat]

Fun!  A man telling women that our lives aren't affected if we don't spend money on all the things for which women and not men are judged.   

I once worked at a place that required women to wear pantyhose if they were in skirts or even in capri pants.  No bare women ankles allowed. Pantyhose are expensive, and for me at least, rarely last more than 3 wears.  Of course, we could instead wear pants, but that's just one example--men are not required to wear essentially disposable socks by any dress code with which I'm familiar. 

The cut of men's clothing is also more forgiving.  As has been mentioned, that means that gaining even 7-8 pounds means the pants that looked great now look awful and unprofessional.  And it also means that just finding clothes that fit well is far more difficult than most men's clothing.  And often requires expensive tailoring to fit well.

A properly fitting bra costs me $70+.  And lasts no more than 12 months (and that's if I have several in the rotation, extending its life). And no, there are not cheaper options.  (There are plenty of more expensive options though.)  So my bra budget alone for a year is probably $210.  And, given the start of this thread, I suppose I should mention that this isn't just vanity.  It's very uncomfortable for me not to wear a bra.  that's would be expensive.  Additionally,  without a bra, clothing would never fit properly.  And I can assure you that given the size of my breasts, if I were to go to most places ignoring the physicaly discomfort and forgoing a bra, people would absolutely find it inappropriate and unprofessional. 

But yes, I'm just a silly, vain, feminine rube who is foolishly and easily parted with my money.   

(95% of the time, I wear no makeup.  I get haircuts about once a year.  So I'm not exactly a pampered poodle of a woman who is obsessed with how I look and am perceived. But much of this stuff can't be avoided, and that's the point of all of this.  The money women spend on many appearance-related things may be about vanity for some, but there are also much wider, far-reaching, intrinsic implications for forging many of them.  I'd never not wear at modest make-up to a professional, office-type job interview.  Fair or not, chances are it would matter.)

 

And this brings up another facet to the discussion: not all women have the choice about certain purchases and how much it would cost you. Villanelle’s bras are expensive as shit and she has to replace them often. I, being less well-endowed, haven’t bought a new bra in….well, since before the pandemic for sure. I work from home, but even if I was still working at an office, my bra situation would still be the same.

These are not advantages/disadvantages that either Villanelle or I have chosen. And there are tons of variables that impact a woman who needs to project a certain image to the world, like boob size, body size, skin color, hair color, hair texture, conventional “beauty” and lord knows how many other factors.

Guys largely get to just… put on the standard uniform for their professional situation, and as long as your hair is combed and you don’t smell, you’re good to go.

Oh fuck, this.

I have a shape that's...err...strategically difficult to dress if I want to look "professional," let's just put it that way. It's also just hard to dress period. My thighs and waist are the same diameter, clothes just aren't made to account for that. My bra size generally doesn't exist, so I usually have to get them custom made and they cost $300+.

There's a reason I pretty much just gave up and started wearing sports bras with terrible support and loose sweaters to work.

Although that has more to do with endless comments from male patients about my clothes and my body. And it was WAY MORE men making comments than women. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that men don't make tons of comments on women's appearance...for me it's like close to a 10:1 ratio of comments from men compared to women.

[neo von retorch]

Guys largely get to just… put on the standard uniform for their professional situation, and as long as your hair is combed and you don’t smell, you’re good to go.

Post-pandemic, combing hair is pretty much not required. We have it super easy. I probably don't smell that great either.

[Metalcat]

Guys largely get to just… put on the standard uniform for their professional situation, and as long as your hair is combed and you don’t smell, you’re good to go.

Post-pandemic, combing hair is pretty much not required. We have it super easy. I probably don't smell that great either.

So true. Last time DH went into the office for an executive government meeting he was wearing literal sweat pants.

Before the pandemic he had a work uniform that I put together for him. It was a pair of chinos from The Gap in 5 different colours and button down shirts, all the exact same cut, in 5 different colours or patterns.

So he was literally wearing the *exact same* outfit every single day for years, just in different colours. Like nurses wearing different scrubs every day, only less interesting.

His colleagues used to rave about how stylish and well dressed he was. I was at a Christmas party when someone said that and I burst out laughing and went on a rant like a crazy person about how he only has one outfit, like Mugatu raving about Zoolander only having one look.

[spartana]

I do often wonder why many women have multiples of almost the exact same thing? Purses for example - especially expensive ones they paid full price for. I have one "nice" purse and a couple of pairs of nice dressy shoes. Why isn't that enough? Why are there so many multiples of things many women have (I get having lots of tools if you work on stuff but don't get 20 $500 purse?)

[neo von retorch]

I have multiples of my favorite jeans, underwear, socks, and shoes. Shoes especially. But I have a tendency to develop gout because I drink water once at midnight at Halloween each year, and then not again. I also have backups of my favorite ergonomic keyboard.

[Metalcat]

I do often wonder why many women have multiples of almost the exact same thing? Purses for example - especially expensive ones they paid full price for. I have one "nice" purse and a couple of pairs of nice dressy shoes. Why isn't that enough? Why are there so many multiples of things many women have (I get having lots of tools if you work on stuff but don't get 20 $500 purse?)

Purse collectors are like any other collectors. Many women have one purse and carry it faithfully until it does, but some women love purses.

One of the things that really appeals about purses is that they're fashion, but they always fit. They make women feel elegant and fashionable without making them feel shitty because they gained a few pounds or are bloated from their period.

It's similar to shoe collectors. I remember an episode of What Not to Wear where a larger woman was incredibly self conscious about gaining weight due to health reasons and they couldn't get her jazzed about clothes, but then they got her shopping for shoes and she just lit up because shoes made her feel beautiful.

So purses and shoes occupy that "feeling beautiful" regardless of body composition for a lot of women, and that is powerful stuff in a world that always makes you feel like shit about your body.

[ATtiny85]

Although that has more to do with endless comments from male patients about my clothes and my body. And it was WAY MORE men making comments than women. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that men don't make tons of comments on women's appearance...for me it's like close to a 10:1 ratio of comments from men compared to women.

But respectfully, if you haven't moved through the world as a man, then you don't know to what extent men actually mean something by their comments.

But respectfully, if you haven't moved through the world as a woman, then you don't know to what extent men are doing the judging.

[RetiredAt63]

I have multiples of my favorite jeans, underwear, socks, and shoes. Shoes especially. But I have a tendency to develop gout because I drink water once at midnight at Halloween each year, and then not again. I also have backups of my favorite ergonomic keyboard.

I just cringed, my one gout attack was enough to have me drinking like I am in the middle of the Gobi desert.

I gave up buying jeans years (decades?) ago, none fit.

I am still wearing socks I got years ago, because I wash them carefully (no dryer) and I don't see nice socks at all in the stores these days.  At least knitting my own means a perfect fit and no seam across the toes.   So one pair of socks costs $10-16 and many hours of my time.  There are the lovely merino ones from Costco but they are too warm for all situations.

When you look at all the women's clothes in stores, it is amazing how little of it is actually wearable.

[Metalcat]

[deleted response changed my mind]

[Kris]

Although that has more to do with endless comments from male patients about my clothes and my body. And it was WAY MORE men making comments than women. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that men don't make tons of comments on women's appearance...for me it's like close to a 10:1 ratio of comments from men compared to women.

But respectfully, if you haven't moved through the world as a man, then you don't know to what extent men actually mean something by their comments.

But respectfully, if you haven't moved through the world as a woman, then you don't know to what extent men are doing the judging.

Can you tell me why and in what contexts a man commenting on a woman’s appearance is warranted?

[RetiredAt63]

Although that has more to do with endless comments from male patients about my clothes and my body. And it was WAY MORE men making comments than women. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that men don't make tons of comments on women's appearance...for me it's like close to a 10:1 ratio of comments from men compared to women.

But respectfully, if you haven't moved through the world as a man, then you don't know to what extent men actually mean something by their comments.

But respectfully, if you haven't moved through the world as a woman, then you don't know to what extent men are doing the judging.

Well if they don't mean anything maybe they should keep their mouths shut?   Silence is golden and all that.

Because whether what they say is positive or negative, they are saying something, which means they are paying attention to how women look.  And the judging is there. 

[neo von retorch]

Although that has more to do with endless comments from male patients about my clothes and my body. And it was WAY MORE men making comments than women. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that men don't make tons of comments on women's appearance...for me it's like close to a 10:1 ratio of comments from men compared to women.

There's a self defense strategy where if you don't believe you do a thing that a group you belong to is believed to do, you just deny that any member of that group does it. Sure fire defense! Protects you! Offloads blame! Can any lawyers weigh in... ?

I believe it's very strongly culturally normal for men to think they should tell women what they think of their appearance. As someone who had it stuck in his head that "being worthy of love" meant "being physically desired by women" - I spent my 20s telling women what I thought of their appearance (and hoping they'd reciprocate.)

It took a lot of retraining myself, recognizing that constantly being told things about your appearance is not actually something women desire, and my urge to do so is selfish, to stop doing that.

[Metalcat]

I have multiples of my favorite jeans, underwear, socks, and shoes. Shoes especially. But I have a tendency to develop gout because I drink water once at midnight at Halloween each year, and then not again. I also have backups of my favorite ergonomic keyboard.

I just cringed, my one gout attack was enough to have me drinking like I am in the middle of the Gobi desert.

I gave up buying jeans years (decades?) ago, none fit.

I am still wearing socks I got years ago, because I wash them carefully (no dryer) and I don't see nice socks at all in the stores these days.  At least knitting my own means a perfect fit and no seam across the toes.   So one pair of socks costs $10-16 and many hours of my time.  There are the lovely merino ones from Costco but they are too warm for all situations.

When you look at all the women's clothes in stores, it is amazing how little of it is actually wearable.

I read an article awhile back, I wish I could find it again, on why women's clothing is made in such horrible styles that no one even wants.

Do you remember a few years back when you literally couldn't buy a shirt that didn't have a cold shoulder? No one wants a cold shoulder top, they're horrible, and yet some kind of horrible feedback loop started in the fast fashion world and fucking everything was made with a cold shoulder.

I don't remember the explanation for this phenomenon in the article, but I remember them explaining why trends that women don't even want end up taking over, no matter how fucking stupid they are.

[GuitarStv]

I read an article awhile back, I wish I could find it again, on why women's clothing is made in such horrible styles that no one even wants.

Do you remember a few years back when you literally couldn't buy a shirt that didn't have a cold shoulder? No one wants a cold shoulder top, they're horrible, and yet some kind of horrible feedback loop started in the fast fashion world and fucking everything was made with a cold shoulder.

I don't remember the explanation for this phenomenon in the article, but I remember them explaining why trends that women don't even want end up taking over, no matter how fucking stupid they are.

Maybe not to the same extent, but stupid assed trends hit guys too.  Remember when you couldn't buy non-skinny men's jeans for a few years?  I do.  I literally went years without buying jeans because they were either way too big in the waist or so tight my thighs wouldn't fit.

[Sibley]

Although that has more to do with endless comments from male patients about my clothes and my body. And it was WAY MORE men making comments than women. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that men don't make tons of comments on women's appearance...for me it's like close to a 10:1 ratio of comments from men compared to women.

But respectfully, if you haven't moved through the world as a man, then you don't know to what extent men actually mean something by their comments.

But respectfully, if you haven't moved through the world as a woman, then you don't know to what extent men are doing the judging.

No. You don't get to pull that crap. Intentions only matter so much. The moment you open your mouth and say it, the intention no longer has much meaning and the impact of your words means everything.

You think you're being nice yet the woman you were trying to compliment thought it was creepy? You were creepy. If that wasn't your intent, then too bad. You were still creepy.

[Metalcat]

Although that has more to do with endless comments from male patients about my clothes and my body. And it was WAY MORE men making comments than women. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that men don't make tons of comments on women's appearance...for me it's like close to a 10:1 ratio of comments from men compared to women.

There's a self defense strategy where if you don't believe you do a thing that a group you belong to is believed to do, you just deny that any member of that group does it. Sure fire defense! Protects you! Offloads blame! Can any lawyers weigh in... ?

I believe it's very strongly culturally normal for men to think they should tell women what they think of their appearance. As someone who had it stuck in his head that "being worthy of love" meant "being physically desired by women" - I spent my 20s telling women what I thought of their appearance.

It took a lot of retraining myself, recognizing that constantly being told things about your appearance is not actually something women desire, and my urge to do so is selfish, to stop doing that.

It does seem to be totally normalized for men to share their opinions about my appearance as if I've solicited them and have any interest in their preferences.

I can't tell you how many times male patients have felt like I would want to know what look of mine in the past that they personally found most appealing.

I lost a lot of weight over a very long period of time and I had male patients *daily* openly commenting about the weights along the way that they found most sexually appealing. There was a lot of unsolicited concern when my ass and breasts got too small for their personal sexual preferences and this concern was very vocally shared.

This was a daily thing, me hearing about how they found me less attractive, as if I wanted to hear about the level of attraction my patients have for me. It only got worse when I cut off my long blonde hair to a buzz cut and stopped wearing makeup and started only wearing ugly non-fitted clothes.

What they didn't realize was that the constant evaluation of my appearance was driving my desire to not put it on display in that context. I just didn't want to be openly sexualized by my patients anymore.

Now I don't accept any comments on my body. If someone comments that I've lost weight, I politely inform them that I prefer not to have comments made about my body, even if they're meant as compliments. If someone makes a judgemental comment about my body, I'm not so polite.

[Ron Scott]

OK, I think we can stipulate that an inordinate share of the world’s aggressor-assholes identify as male.

Having said that, I think we can also agree: A) many behaviors we associate with gender differences are socially constructed, B) spending behaviors in particular are frequently socially constructed by gender, and C) most people are capable of personal introspection about how to at least reduce spending on items that they are socially motivated to buy.

The issue at point in this thread is pushing back on social pressure to spend more than we need to in gender-specific patterns. We know that in the face of social pressure, many people push back. They might not completely overcome, but they make progress.

More of us should be doing that, IMO. Make some progress…no matter how modest…and chalk up a personal win.

[spartana]

Although that has more to do with endless comments from male patients about my clothes and my body. And it was WAY MORE men making comments than women. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that men don't make tons of comments on women's appearance...for me it's like close to a 10:1 ratio of comments from men compared to women.

There's a self defense strategy where if you don't believe you do a thing that a group you belong to is believed to do, you just deny that any member of that group does it. Sure fire defense! Protects you! Offloads blame! Can any lawyers weigh in... ?

I believe it's very strongly culturally normal for men to think they should tell women what they think of their appearance. As someone who had it stuck in his head that "being worthy of love" meant "being physically desired by women" - I spent my 20s telling women what I thought of their appearance (and hoping they'd reciprocate.)

It took a lot of retraining myself, recognizing that constantly being told things about your appearance is not actually something women desire, and my urge to do so is selfish, to stop doing that.

I think the bold it true and many people probably see it as harmless. But often times it IS inappropriate depending on the context and even demeaning to women as several others already mentioned. I know as a woman who both worked in, and has hobbies in, heavily male dominated activities, that comments on my appearance rather then my skills is very common. And it is demeaning even if the person doesn't mean it intentionally.

[spartana]

OK, I think we can stipulate that an inordinate share of the world’s aggressor-assholes identify as male.

Having said that, I think we can also agree: A) many behaviors we associate with gender differences are socially constructed, B) spending behaviors in particular are frequently socially constructed by gender, and C) most people are capable of personal introspection about how to at least reduce spending on items that they are socially motivated to buy.

The issue at point in this thread is pushing back on social pressure to spend more than we need to in gender-specific patterns. We know that in the face of social pressure, many people push back. They might not completely overcome, but they make progress.

More of us should be doing that, IMO. Make some progress…no matter how modest…and chalk up a personal win.

IDK you're dealing with a cradle to grave mass marketing behemoth coupled with societial ideals of what makes people "worthy". Hard thing to crush or even put a dent in. I suppose trying to convince people that they have value beyond just the things they buy, how they look, and the things they do. Maybe coupled with environmental concerns around those choices - be that the ginourmus gas guzzling truck or the 50 pairs of designer purses and shoes - or the joys of minimalism and simple living. It all seems  hopeless.

[Metalcat]

OK, I think we can stipulate that an inordinate share of the world’s aggressor-assholes identify as male.

Having said that, I think we can also agree: A) many behaviors we associate with gender differences are socially constructed, B) spending behaviors in particular are frequently socially constructed by gender, and C) most people are capable of personal introspection about how to at least reduce spending on items that they are socially motivated to buy.

The issue at point in this thread is pushing back on social pressure to spend more than we need to in gender-specific patterns. We know that in the face of social pressure, many people push back. They might not completely overcome, but they make progress.

More of us should be doing that, IMO. Make some progress…no matter how modest…and chalk up a personal win.

You mean like all of the women in this thread who explained that we do just that??

Or all of the Gen Z buyers who are pushing back against a lot of the marketing to them https://www.forbes.com/sites/jefffromm/2022/07/20/as-gen-zs-buying-power-grows-businesses-must-adapt-their-marketing/?sh=51002a0e2533

You mean all of the progress that is constantly being made on this front, which is why you rarely hear about pantyhose being mandatory anymore in offices even though they were when I was starting out working in offices, why young women have been aggressively pushing back against underwire as a normal day-to-day necessity the same way women pushed back against the ven more constricting foundation garments of the 50s, why women have even more aggressively pushed for the normalization of wearing leggings even though only a decade ago it was normal to hear the admonishment that "Ladies!! Leggings are NOT pants!!!"

We are never NOT pushing back against the norms that are pushed on us. It's kind of what we do, in case you hadn't noticed.

And guess what, us complaining about this bullshit *is* how we normalize pushing back. The more we openly complain about it, the more people question it and the more inclined they are to push back.

So I'm sorry if we littered your thread with the exact discourse necessary to accomplish what you say you want...

Or is this just about condescending women in general for being stupid, vain spenders??

[Ron Scott]

Although that has more to do with endless comments from male patients about my clothes and my body. And it was WAY MORE men making comments than women. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that men don't make tons of comments on women's appearance...for me it's like close to a 10:1 ratio of comments from men compared to women.

There's a self defense strategy where if you don't believe you do a thing that a group you belong to is believed to do, you just deny that any member of that group does it. Sure fire defense! Protects you! Offloads blame! Can any lawyers weigh in... ?

I believe it's very strongly culturally normal for men to think they should tell women what they think of their appearance. As someone who had it stuck in his head that "being worthy of love" meant "being physically desired by women" - I spent my 20s telling women what I thought of their appearance (and hoping they'd reciprocate.)

It took a lot of retraining myself, recognizing that constantly being told things about your appearance is not actually something women desire, and my urge to do so is selfish, to stop doing that.

I think the bold it true and many people probably see it as harmless. But often times it IS inappropriate depending on the context and even demeaning to women as several others already mentioned. I know as a woman who both worked in, and has hobbies in, heavily male dominated activities, that comments on my appearance rather then my skills is very common. And it is demeaning even if the person doesn't mean it intentionally.

I always felt telling my wife or, when I was single, a girlfriend, she looked good was normal and well-received, while saying that to strangers was stupid. And saying it to women you interact with in a work setting is essentially asshole territory. I mean a guy doesn’t have to be a genius to understand the harmful effect of this.

Hard for me to say since I don’t focus on it like a woman has to, but I’m guessing this form of socially inept behavior afflicts a sizable minority of men…more among the uneducated and “alpha” types, who might have a mental health issue? Anyone put a percentage on it?

[Metalcat]

Although that has more to do with endless comments from male patients about my clothes and my body. And it was WAY MORE men making comments than women. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that men don't make tons of comments on women's appearance...for me it's like close to a 10:1 ratio of comments from men compared to women.

There's a self defense strategy where if you don't believe you do a thing that a group you belong to is believed to do, you just deny that any member of that group does it. Sure fire defense! Protects you! Offloads blame! Can any lawyers weigh in... ?

I believe it's very strongly culturally normal for men to think they should tell women what they think of their appearance. As someone who had it stuck in his head that "being worthy of love" meant "being physically desired by women" - I spent my 20s telling women what I thought of their appearance (and hoping they'd reciprocate.)

It took a lot of retraining myself, recognizing that constantly being told things about your appearance is not actually something women desire, and my urge to do so is selfish, to stop doing that.

I think the bold it true and many people probably see it as harmless. But often times it IS inappropriate depending on the context and even demeaning to women as several others already mentioned. I know as a woman who both worked in, and has hobbies in, heavily male dominated activities, that comments on my appearance rather then my skills is very common. And it is demeaning even if the person doesn't mean it intentionally.

I always felt telling my wife or, when I was single, a girlfriend, she looked good was normal and well-received, while saying that to strangers was stupid. And saying it to women you interact with in a work setting is essentially asshole territory. I mean a guy doesn’t have to be a genius to understand the harmful effect of this.

Hard for me to say since I don’t focus on it like a woman has to, but I’m guessing this form of socially inept behavior afflicts a sizable minority of men…more among the uneducated and “alpha” types, who might have a mental health issue? Anyone put a percentage on it?

Absolutely not. It is perfectly "normal" behaviour for perfectly "normal" men to engage in literally all the time.

It's not some dysfunctional minority who don't know how to behave socially, it's the norm. That's why it's so difficult to push back on because men who believe they are behaving perfectly politely don't tend to respond well to us uppity bitches getting offended. 

[Ron Scott]

OK, I think we can stipulate that an inordinate share of the world’s aggressor-assholes identify as male.

Having said that, I think we can also agree: A) many behaviors we associate with gender differences are socially constructed, B) spending behaviors in particular are frequently socially constructed by gender, and C) most people are capable of personal introspection about how to at least reduce spending on items that they are socially motivated to buy.

The issue at point in this thread is pushing back on social pressure to spend more than we need to in gender-specific patterns. We know that in the face of social pressure, many people push back. They might not completely overcome, but they make progress.

More of us should be doing that, IMO. Make some progress…no matter how modest…and chalk up a personal win.

You mean like all of the women in this thread who explained that we do just that??
…
…
…

You nailed it in the first sentence.

The group on this forum—women AND men—is generally more attuned to WHY they spend and buy what they do. More people should think this way.

[Metalcat]

OK, I think we can stipulate that an inordinate share of the world’s aggressor-assholes identify as male.

Having said that, I think we can also agree: A) many behaviors we associate with gender differences are socially constructed, B) spending behaviors in particular are frequently socially constructed by gender, and C) most people are capable of personal introspection about how to at least reduce spending on items that they are socially motivated to buy.

The issue at point in this thread is pushing back on social pressure to spend more than we need to in gender-specific patterns. We know that in the face of social pressure, many people push back. They might not completely overcome, but they make progress.

More of us should be doing that, IMO. Make some progress…no matter how modest…and chalk up a personal win.

You mean like all of the women in this thread who explained that we do just that??
…
…
…

You nailed it in the first sentence.

The group on this forum—women AND men—is generally more attuned to WHY they spend and buy what they do. More people should think this way.

Which is why this forum and all of the blogs out there exist.

Which is why FIRE became a massive trend, why Dave Ramsey before that has been enormously popular for decades.

Yes, financial literacy and responsible spending are incredibly important. That's very hard to do in cultures where the systems are designed to get people to spend irresponsibly, but we're constantly working on it.

That's kind of a given here though. You might as well have started a thread saying that people should eat more vegetables and floss daily.

[InterfaceLeader]

Worth noting that along with all the other good points raised about societal norms, women will often need to buy additional clothes for life events such as pregnancy, breast feeding etc. 

I'd be curious how the original data is researched. There's no source given. Does it include what affluent men spend on status symbols such as expensive watches? (And general other questions about how spend is categorised)

Does it account for the fact women are more often responsible for buying clothes for any children in the family? How do other demographic factors influence the data?

It seems awfully simplistic and aggregated to the point of being useless for drawing any useful conclusions that might positively influence behaviours, and far more about reinforcing trite assumptions about men and women.

[Metalcat]

Worth noting that along with all the other good points raised about societal norms, women will often need to buy additional clothes for life events such as pregnancy, breast feeding etc. 

I'd be curious how the original data is researched. There's no source given. Does it include what affluent men spend on status symbols such as expensive watches? (And general other questions about how spend is categorised)

Does it account for the fact women are more often responsible for buying clothes for any children in the family? How do other demographic factors influence the data?

It seems awfully simplistic and aggregated to the point of being useless for drawing any useful conclusions that might positively influence behaviours, and far more about reinforcing trite assumptions about men and women.

Yes, this. This whole thing just feels like an attempt to paint women as mindless spenders driven by pointless vanity.

[use2betrix]

Although that has more to do with endless comments from male patients about my clothes and my body. And it was WAY MORE men making comments than women. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that men don't make tons of comments on women's appearance...for me it's like close to a 10:1 ratio of comments from men compared to women.

But respectfully, if you haven't moved through the world as a man, then you don't know to what extent men actually mean something by their comments.

But respectfully, if you haven't moved through the world as a woman, then you don't know to what extent men are doing the judging.

Can you tell me why and in what contexts a man commenting on a woman’s appearance is warranted?

If I see a colleague wearing these boots, I’m going to tell her that I really like them. Maybe even engage in some small talk about them.. Is there a problem with this?

https://www.redwingshoes.com/heritage/womens/clara/Clara-03404.html?gclid=CjwKCAiA6byqBhAWEiwAnGCA4GlSmMhx9oWkreCpnFU4Tj8LNCjHtDTkkqaedBmuuHY39qujjcaWMRoC4tAQAvD_BwE

[Kris]

Although that has more to do with endless comments from male patients about my clothes and my body. And it was WAY MORE men making comments than women. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that men don't make tons of comments on women's appearance...for me it's like close to a 10:1 ratio of comments from men compared to women.

But respectfully, if you haven't moved through the world as a man, then you don't know to what extent men actually mean something by their comments.

But respectfully, if you haven't moved through the world as a woman, then you don't know to what extent men are doing the judging.

Can you tell me why and in what contexts a man commenting on a woman’s appearance is warranted?

If I see a colleague wearing these boots, I’m going to tell her that I really like them. Maybe even engage in some small talk about them.. Is there a problem with this?

https://www.redwingshoes.com/heritage/womens/clara/Clara-03404.html?gclid=CjwKCAiA6byqBhAWEiwAnGCA4GlSmMhx9oWkreCpnFU4Tj8LNCjHtDTkkqaedBmuuHY39qujjcaWMRoC4tAQAvD_BwE

You are commenting on a boot. Not how her foot looks in them. At least, I presume.

[use2betrix]

Although that has more to do with endless comments from male patients about my clothes and my body. And it was WAY MORE men making comments than women. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that men don't make tons of comments on women's appearance...for me it's like close to a 10:1 ratio of comments from men compared to women.

But respectfully, if you haven't moved through the world as a man, then you don't know to what extent men actually mean something by their comments.

But respectfully, if you haven't moved through the world as a woman, then you don't know to what extent men are doing the judging.

Can you tell me why and in what contexts a man commenting on a woman’s appearance is warranted?

If I see a colleague wearing these boots, I’m going to tell her that I really like them. Maybe even engage in some small talk about them.. Is there a problem with this?

https://www.redwingshoes.com/heritage/womens/clara/Clara-03404.html?gclid=CjwKCAiA6byqBhAWEiwAnGCA4GlSmMhx9oWkreCpnFU4Tj8LNCjHtDTkkqaedBmuuHY39qujjcaWMRoC4tAQAvD_BwE

You are commenting on a boot. Not how her foot looks in them. At least, I presume.

Definitely just the boot.

Regarding comments about someone’s body - definitely unacceptable.

Commenting on an acquaintances change or hairstyle or nicely done nails.. grey area?

[Metalcat]

Although that has more to do with endless comments from male patients about my clothes and my body. And it was WAY MORE men making comments than women. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that men don't make tons of comments on women's appearance...for me it's like close to a 10:1 ratio of comments from men compared to women.

But respectfully, if you haven't moved through the world as a man, then you don't know to what extent men actually mean something by their comments.

But respectfully, if you haven't moved through the world as a woman, then you don't know to what extent men are doing the judging.

Can you tell me why and in what contexts a man commenting on a woman’s appearance is warranted?

If I see a colleague wearing these boots, I’m going to tell her that I really like them. Maybe even engage in some small talk about them.. Is there a problem with this?

https://www.redwingshoes.com/heritage/womens/clara/Clara-03404.html?gclid=CjwKCAiA6byqBhAWEiwAnGCA4GlSmMhx9oWkreCpnFU4Tj8LNCjHtDTkkqaedBmuuHY39qujjcaWMRoC4tAQAvD_BwE

You are commenting on a boot. Not how her foot looks in them. At least, I presume.

Definitely just the boot.

Regarding comments about someone’s body - definitely unacceptable.

Commenting on an acquaintances change or hairstyle or nicely done nails.. grey area?

Yep, grey area. Examine your relationship with this person and whether or not you know that they want your evaluation of their appearance. If you are unsure, then err on the side of not making statements that evaluate people's appearance.

Because even a compliment is you asserting your evaluation of them.

I'm studying this right now I'm school, why it's so fraught to offer praise or compliments in therapy because it establishes the therapist's opinion of the person's choices as important.

I've been reading quite a bit about eating disorders since my supervisor has published quite a bit on the matter and the issue of complimenting young people (girls and boys) on their appearance is complex one.

Compliments on appearance are not benign.

I've personally taken to A LOT of reflection on my own compliment habits as a result of all of this reading and my personal experiences.

For me, there's a lot of self reflection on the impact of evaluation comments even when they are well received. For example when I was first losing weight I loved the positive feedback, but I lost a lot of weight very slowly over a few years and it didn't take long for the comments, even the positive ones, to feel like adjudication on my value based on my body composition.

Day in and day out I received unsolicited value judgements on my body from people I was not at all close to and would never solicit evaluation from.

People believe that because a comment is positive that it's beneficial, but that's not necessarily the case. A virtual stranger asserting that it's normal for them to evaluate my body is kind of insane when you really think about it.

I don't fault them, they're just trying to be nice, but it does make me challenge the social norms that encourage a constant narrative of evaluation of people's appearance, especially women, as it's so ubiquitous.

So yes, I think we should investigate and self reflect on appearance evaluating habits that we are conditioned to perceive as perfectly normal, benign, or even beneficial.

Because OBVIOUSLY in a world where women's (and men's) self image is in the fucking toilet, whatever we think is okay obviously isn't doing anyone any favours.

ETA: here where I plug the AMAZING book "Looks Can Kill," which I think every parent should read to get a sense of what kind of messaging young people are getting and the current trends for achieving unrealistic body standards.

[Kris]

Malcat’s response is great.

If you are a guy, here is a little thought experiment for you any time you are thinking about commenting on a woman’s appearance, clothing, etc: Being honest with yourself, would you make the same comment to a guy? Why or why not?

[GuitarStv]

Worth noting that along with all the other good points raised about societal norms, women will often need to buy additional clothes for life events such as pregnancy, breast feeding etc. 

I'd be curious how the original data is researched. There's no source given. Does it include what affluent men spend on status symbols such as expensive watches? (And general other questions about how spend is categorised)

Does it account for the fact women are more often responsible for buying clothes for any children in the family? How do other demographic factors influence the data?

It seems awfully simplistic and aggregated to the point of being useless for drawing any useful conclusions that might positively influence behaviours, and far more about reinforcing trite assumptions about men and women.

Expensive watches are so dumb.  We live in a world where it's difficult work to find a place without something aggressively screaming the time at you.  The stove, the microwave, alarm clocks, clocks in cars, clocks on the wall at the office, ubiquitous cell phone clocks, on tablets, on computers, on LED billboards as you drive or walk by, on clock towers, on television, etc.

[spartana]

Although that has more to do with endless comments from male patients about my clothes and my body. And it was WAY MORE men making comments than women. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that men don't make tons of comments on women's appearance...for me it's like close to a 10:1 ratio of comments from men compared to women.

There's a self defense strategy where if you don't believe you do a thing that a group you belong to is believed to do, you just deny that any member of that group does it. Sure fire defense! Protects you! Offloads blame! Can any lawyers weigh in... ?

I believe it's very strongly culturally normal for men to think they should tell women what they think of their appearance. As someone who had it stuck in his head that "being worthy of love" meant "being physically desired by women" - I spent my 20s telling women what I thought of their appearance (and hoping they'd reciprocate.)

It took a lot of retraining myself, recognizing that constantly being told things about your appearance is not actually something women desire, and my urge to do so is selfish, to stop doing that.

I think the bold it true and many people probably see it as harmless. But often times it IS inappropriate depending on the context and even demeaning to women as several others already mentioned. I know as a woman who both worked in, and has hobbies in, heavily male dominated activities, that comments on my appearance rather then my skills is very common. And it is demeaning even if the person doesn't mean it intentionally.

I always felt telling my wife or, when I was single, a girlfriend, she looked good was normal and well-received, while saying that to strangers was stupid. And saying it to women you interact with in a work setting is essentially asshole territory. I mean a guy doesn’t have to be a genius to understand the harmful effect of this.

Hard for me to say since I don’t focus on it like a woman has to, but I’m guessing this form of socially inept behavior afflicts a sizable minority of men…more among the uneducated and “alpha” types, who might have a mental health issue? Anyone put a percentage on it?

Not necessarily with the bolded as my own personal experiences have come from highly educated men in the top of their fields. For example I, along with about 5 of my male crew members, were being awarded medals for something we did. It was a live televised thing and a fancy 2 or 3  star Admirmal flew up from D.C. to pin on our medals. As he went down the line making comments about bravery yada yada etc to my male crew members his comment to me was about my appearance. It was humiliating. Afterwards when we went back to the station house to watch it on the news only one guy even noticed this. His comment was along the lines of "WTF? Did that Admiral just make a comment about what you looked like in your wet suit? 

Another time my civilian boss, a Norte Dame engineer, who had never seen me in anything but my work uniform, made a similar comment when he introduced me during a presentation I was giving to hundred of people and was wearing slacks and a button down blouse and boots. Again WTF? So no, not just the uneducated or mentally ill. That's actually been rarer on the job (probably due to being equal status). Sometimes (often times maybe) it's older men who are in power positions.

[Metalcat]

Worth noting that along with all the other good points raised about societal norms, women will often need to buy additional clothes for life events such as pregnancy, breast feeding etc. 

I'd be curious how the original data is researched. There's no source given. Does it include what affluent men spend on status symbols such as expensive watches? (And general other questions about how spend is categorised)

Does it account for the fact women are more often responsible for buying clothes for any children in the family? How do other demographic factors influence the data?

It seems awfully simplistic and aggregated to the point of being useless for drawing any useful conclusions that might positively influence behaviours, and far more about reinforcing trite assumptions about men and women.

Expensive watches are so dumb.  We live in a world where it's difficult work to find a place without something aggressively screaming the time at you.  The stove, the microwave, alarm clocks, clocks in cars, clocks on the wall at the office, ubiquitous cell phone clocks, on tablets, on computers, on LED billboards as you drive or walk by, on clock towers, on television, etc.

I have an expensive watch that I got for one of my graduations. I literally cannot tell the time on it, it's just jewelry. And even then, it's not a terribly expensive watch in the realm of expensive watches, under $1000. But still, it's just a bracelet with some moving parts and roman numerals. The face is so small and so elongated that I can tell you it's a quarter to either 2 or 3, but I can't really be certain which, I have to check my phone for that, lol.

[StarBright]

And the conclusion is:  if women as a whole spend a lot of money on things that seem illogical or stupid to an outsider, it's a fair bet they're doing it because they think it's in their best interest to do so.  I.e., it is completely logical -- you just need to change your perspective.

I think about this a lot as it pertains to women in (typically lower paying) service industries. I cater-waitered and waited tables all through undergrad and grad school and saw a marked difference in tips depending on hair color, make up, hair style, etc.

Blond highlights, long hair, perfect nails, a good bra and a face full of make up offered a real return on investment for me! I remember the bump I saw after I got blond highlights the first time. I called my mother as soon as I got off shift because the difference was that big!  I dyed my hair brown at one point because I was tired of the upkeep - it made a difference in my ability to make rent. I went right back to blond highlights.

I think of all the times I've heard people commenting on how those in low paying jobs shouldn't get their hair or nails done, and I just shake my head. Chances are that cosmetic enhancements are improving the income of those in service gigs.

[Metalcat]

And the conclusion is:  if women as a whole spend a lot of money on things that seem illogical or stupid to an outsider, it's a fair bet they're doing it because they think it's in their best interest to do so.  I.e., it is completely logical -- you just need to change your perspective.

I think about this a lot as it pertains to women in (typically lower paying) service industries. I cater-waitered and waited tables all through undergrad and grad school and saw a marked difference in tips depending on hair color, make up, hair style, etc.

Blond highlights, long hair, perfect nails, a good bra and a face full of make up offered a real return on investment for me! I remember the bump I saw after I got blond highlights the first time. I called my mother as soon as I got off shift because the difference was that big!  I dyed my hair brown at one point because I was tired of the upkeep - it made a difference in my ability to make rent. I went right back to blond highlights.

I think of all the times I've heard people commenting on how those in low paying jobs shouldn't get their hair or nails done, and I just shake my head. Chances are that cosmetic enhancements are improving the income of those in service gigs.

Pigtails. I read a whole article about the magnitude of impact that pigtails have on female wait staff tips. I've also read about red nails and red lipstick.

Real, tangible, financial impact.

Here's one article about it, not the one I read before, but good enough to make the point
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/i-wear-pigtails-server-to-get-more-tips-from-men-2022-11%3famp

ETA: I frequently wore red lipstick and curled pigtails when I worked in menswear.

ETA 2: also ALWAYS very high heels. I would be crippled with pain after a long shift on my feet in stilettos, but there was no question that they impacted my commissions. So I would hobble home on mangled feet and knees late at night. Which is why I got hooked on pedicures, btw.

[GuitarStv]

Although that has more to do with endless comments from male patients about my clothes and my body. And it was WAY MORE men making comments than women. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that men don't make tons of comments on women's appearance...for me it's like close to a 10:1 ratio of comments from men compared to women.

There's a self defense strategy where if you don't believe you do a thing that a group you belong to is believed to do, you just deny that any member of that group does it. Sure fire defense! Protects you! Offloads blame! Can any lawyers weigh in... ?

I believe it's very strongly culturally normal for men to think they should tell women what they think of their appearance. As someone who had it stuck in his head that "being worthy of love" meant "being physically desired by women" - I spent my 20s telling women what I thought of their appearance (and hoping they'd reciprocate.)

It took a lot of retraining myself, recognizing that constantly being told things about your appearance is not actually something women desire, and my urge to do so is selfish, to stop doing that.

I think the bold it true and many people probably see it as harmless. But often times it IS inappropriate depending on the context and even demeaning to women as several others already mentioned. I know as a woman who both worked in, and has hobbies in, heavily male dominated activities, that comments on my appearance rather then my skills is very common. And it is demeaning even if the person doesn't mean it intentionally.

I always felt telling my wife or, when I was single, a girlfriend, she looked good was normal and well-received, while saying that to strangers was stupid. And saying it to women you interact with in a work setting is essentially asshole territory. I mean a guy doesn’t have to be a genius to understand the harmful effect of this.

Hard for me to say since I don’t focus on it like a woman has to, but I’m guessing this form of socially inept behavior afflicts a sizable minority of men…more among the uneducated and “alpha” types, who might have a mental health issue? Anyone put a percentage on it?

Not necessarily with the bolded as my own personal experiences have come from highly educated men in the top of their fields. For example I, along with about 5 of my male crew members, were being awarded medals for something we did. It was a live televised thing and a fancy 2 or 3  star Admirmal flew up from D.C. to pin on our medals. As he went down the line making comments about bravery yada yada etc to my male crew members his comment to me was about my appearance. It was humiliating. Afterwards when we went back to the station house to watch it on the news only one guy even noticed this. His comment was along the lines of "WTF? Did that Admiral just make a comment about what you looked like in your wet suit? 

Another time my civilian boss, a Norte Dame engineer, who had never seen me in anything but my work uniform, made a similar comment when he introduced me during a presentation I was giving to hundred of people and was wearing slacks and a button down blouse and boots. Again WTF? So no, not just the uneducated or mentally ill. That's actually been rarer on the job (probably due to being equal status). Sometimes (often times maybe) it's older men who are in power positions.

To be fair, I haven't met too many non-alpha male admirals.  Most branches of the military have been bastions of sexism and harassment for an awful long time and fought against efforts to change that (at least here in Canada).

[Metalcat]

To be fair, I haven't met too many non-alpha male admirals.  Most branches of the military have been bastions of sexism and harassment for an awful long time and fought against efforts to change that (at least here in Canada).

Ugh, yes, it's so fucking bad.

For anyone who wants to know how much of a crisis it is, our top female officer resigned because it's just so fucking bad and she lost faith in the ostensibly, but bullshit efforts to address it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5952618

[spartana]

Although that has more to do with endless comments from male patients about my clothes and my body. And it was WAY MORE men making comments than women. I don't know where anyone gets the idea that men don't make tons of comments on women's appearance...for me it's like close to a 10:1 ratio of comments from men compared to women.

There's a self defense strategy where if you don't believe you do a thing that a group you belong to is believed to do, you just deny that any member of that group does it. Sure fire defense! Protects you! Offloads blame! Can any lawyers weigh in... ?

I believe it's very strongly culturally normal for men to think they should tell women what they think of their appearance. As someone who had it stuck in his head that "being worthy of love" meant "being physically desired by women" - I spent my 20s telling women what I thought of their appearance (and hoping they'd reciprocate.)

It took a lot of retraining myself, recognizing that constantly being told things about your appearance is not actually something women desire, and my urge to do so is selfish, to stop doing that.

I think the bold it true and many people probably see it as harmless. But often times it IS inappropriate depending on the context and even demeaning to women as several others already mentioned. I know as a woman who both worked in, and has hobbies in, heavily male dominated activities, that comments on my appearance rather then my skills is very common. And it is demeaning even if the person doesn't mean it intentionally.

I always felt telling my wife or, when I was single, a girlfriend, she looked good was normal and well-received, while saying that to strangers was stupid. And saying it to women you interact with in a work setting is essentially asshole territory. I mean a guy doesn’t have to be a genius to understand the harmful effect of this.

Hard for me to say since I don’t focus on it like a woman has to, but I’m guessing this form of socially inept behavior afflicts a sizable minority of men…more among the uneducated and “alpha” types, who might have a mental health issue? Anyone put a percentage on it?

Not necessarily with the bolded as my own personal experiences have come from highly educated men in the top of their fields. For example I, along with about 5 of my male crew members, were being awarded medals for something we did. It was a live televised thing and a fancy 2 or 3  star Admirmal flew up from D.C. to pin on our medals. As he went down the line making comments about bravery yada yada etc to my male crew members his comment to me was about my appearance. It was humiliating. Afterwards when we went back to the station house to watch it on the news only one guy even noticed this. His comment was along the lines of "WTF? Did that Admiral just make a comment about what you looked like in your wet suit? 

Another time my civilian boss, a Norte Dame engineer, who had never seen me in anything but my work uniform, made a similar comment when he introduced me during a presentation I was giving to hundred of people and was wearing slacks and a button down blouse and boots. Again WTF? So no, not just the uneducated or mentally ill. That's actually been rarer on the job (probably due to being equal status). Sometimes (often times maybe) it's older men who are in power positions.

To be fair, I haven't met too many non-alpha male admirals.  Most branches of the military have been bastions of sexism and harassment for an awful long time and fought against efforts to change that (at least here in Canada).

True. Although that was long ago so I would image most high ranking military males are less "old school" now. Not too many Mad Men types chasing women around desks anymore (God I hope not). It was more To comment that the higher educated are less likely to do that kind of thing when my experiences have been the opposite.

Back on topic: As far as women buying tons of stuff (and I agree many non-mustashian women do that) I have no idea why they buy so many multiples of things. Is shopping a hobby? An addiction?  Is buying 100 different bottles of face cream or perfume or whatever really needed to make on feel better about themselves? Or to be seen as valued by society? Or some kind of hunt for perfection?  I get that many women need (or feel they need) to do all that but why 50 shades of red lipstick instead of just one or 2?

[Metalcat]

True. Although that was long ago so I would image most high ranking military males are less "old school" now. Not too many Mad Men types chasing women around desks anymore (God I hope not). It was more To comment that the higher educated are less likely to do that kind of thing when my experiences have been the opposite.

Back on topic: As far as women buying tons of stuff (and I agree many non-mustashian women do that) I have no idea why they buy so many multiples of things. Is shopping a hobby? An addiction?  Is buying 100 different bottles of face cream or perfume or whatever really needed to make on feel better about themselves? Or to be seen as valued by society? Or some kind of hunt for perfection?  I get that many women need (or feel they need) to do all that but why 50 shades of red lipstick instead of just one or 2?

It's the same as any collector hobby.

For makeup there's a combination of factors.

First, there is a constant pursuit of perfection, conceptualization that the right red lipstick will make them feel beautiful. There's also the reality that faces change over time and the same red lipstick that worked for them a few years ago no longer looks good. I personally don't wear much makeup day to day, but I am professionally trained and do enjoy doing makeup for events. I've had to radically change up my style as I've aged.

That brings us to aging. Society absolutely lowers a woman's perceived value in proportion to how old she looks, so the creams and shit are all snake oil promising youth. They do help, for sure, a combo of hyaluronic acid and retinol absolutely does make my skin look much younger. No question.

But unless you have a solid understanding of the science behind these products, it's very easy to get scammed by marketing.

Today's youth are much more savvy about this and have catapulted brands like The Ordinary, which are transparent and sell cheap, high quality products with brand names that are their active ingredients. They also follow influencers who demystify products. They are profoundly informed beauty buyers.

On those influencers though. That's a double edged sword. As much as they are getting very insightful education about skin chemistry, they're also sucked into an online culture of beauty, and makeup trends.

These days makeup as self expression has exploded with micro trends lasting as much as a few weeks or even days. These trends require products. Lots and lots of products.

It's not just about looking young and pretty anymore, it's about being part of a community and submitting your latest photo of your version of the current "esthetic."

This drives a more volume based fast fashion industry of makeup and clothes to be able to capture photos of the lastest "esthetic."

I listened to a CBC story about the "clean girl esthetic" and the problematic racist underpinning. It was very interesting. There's A LOT of complicated self-reflective discourse going on with respect to Gen Z values, their power to disrupt and how that, in and of itself, is being capitalized upon to promote dominant hegemonic values.

So Gen Z basically bankrupted legacy cosmetic giants like Revlon and created the rise of smaller independent cosmetic companies, many owned by folks who aligned more with their values, but with that came it's own economy and evils.

What happens when the fun, Indy company that promotes self expression through less expensive, higher quality products becomes the big player looking to exploit the very followers who made them??

It all comes back to the double edged sword of being evaluated.

Is there value in young women (and increasingly young men) turning to makeup as a form of rebellious self expression and rejection of dominant values? Yes.

Is there value in these folks congregating online, seeking community validation and receiving praise? Yes.

Is there value in this launching small independent brands from nothing to be able to compete with corrupt legacy behemoths? Absolutely.

Are there tons of opportunities for evil and damage within a community that centers on validation for appearance?? Oh fuck yes!!

For women, the love of makeup is a very, very complex relationship with self esteem and art of self expression.

Is makeup empowering or subjugating? Yes

A friend of mine has a tween daughter who has literally thousands and thousands of dollars worth of eyeshadow palettes because she gets them for every single birthday/Christmas/graduation/etc gift and her family is wealthy.

She's unbelievably passionate about self expression through makeup and spends hours a day doing her own looks and others when they'll let her. It's her dream to become a makeup artist influencer and develop her own palettes eventually.

With the world of influencers and social media, the line between consumer and professional is so blurred that a fixation on your own esthetic can actually be a career ambition.

So yeah, I don't have a simple answer for you.

[okits]

Back on topic: As far as women buying tons of stuff (and I agree many non-mustashian women do that) I have no idea why they buy so many multiples of things. Is shopping a hobby? An addiction?  Is buying 100 different bottles of face cream or perfume or whatever really needed to make on feel better about themselves? Or to be seen as valued by society? Or some kind of hunt for perfection?  I get that many women need (or feel they need) to do all that but why 50 shades of red lipstick instead of just one or 2?

Very good and detailed answer by Metalcat.

I’ll add my $0.02 that there is an arms race aspect to this.  When I wear make up I wear 1-2 products suited to me.  All other things being equal, if the woman next to me wears 3-5 products suited to her, she looks better.  Repeat with escalating numbers.  You certainly reach a point of diminishing returns, but the search for advantage (and the rewards) is real.

Cosmetics are perishable.  Some products last a few months, some a bit longer, but with things you are putting by your mucous membranes, you need to replace them often enough to at least avoid infecting or sickening yourself.

Living in a climate with four distinct seasons, my skin tone changes in the sunnier months, even with sunscreen and hats.  Cosmetics that go on the skin would need to be changed up into colours that worked with the changed skin tone.  So that might happen several times a year.  And the products might be expired by the time that season rolls around next year.

There’s certainly pleasure, collector, trend, and aesthetic aspects that Metalcat detailed.  But what might be considered fairly basic maintenance can still require a fair number of ongoing purchases.  Or acceptance of the social and professional consequences of looking less good than others, which can negate the value of time and money savings from not striving in the arms race.

[RetiredAt63]

What Okits said.  Plus as you start going grey you have to decide whether to colour your hair or let it go grey.  And either way, your skin tone usually changes as well.

Plus you can't always find what you want, manufacturers change their products and that perfect foundation/mascara/eyebrow pencil/lipstick is just not available any more.  So if your first replacement attempt is unsatisfactory you have to try another one.  And you hold on to the first try in case the 2nd try is worse.  And you eventually end up with 3 or 4 things before you find one that works.

And don't laugh, this is an issue.  I found one glycerine soap that was perfect for my skin.  There was only one store that carried it.  Every time I was there I bought their whole stock.  Eventually they stopped carrying it.  I have a bunch in storage, and I will have real trouble finding a replacement when I use the last bar.

[Metalcat]

Back on topic: As far as women buying tons of stuff (and I agree many non-mustashian women do that) I have no idea why they buy so many multiples of things. Is shopping a hobby? An addiction?  Is buying 100 different bottles of face cream or perfume or whatever really needed to make on feel better about themselves? Or to be seen as valued by society? Or some kind of hunt for perfection?  I get that many women need (or feel they need) to do all that but why 50 shades of red lipstick instead of just one or 2?

Very good and detailed answer by Metalcat.

I’ll add my $0.02 that there is an arms race aspect to this.  When I wear make up I wear 1-2 products suited to me.  All other things being equal, if the woman next to me wears 3-5 products suited to her, she looks better.  Repeat with escalating numbers.  You certainly reach a point of diminishing returns, but the search for advantage (and the rewards) is real.

Cosmetics are perishable.  Some products last a few months, some a bit longer, but with things you are putting by your mucous membranes, you need to replace them often enough to at least avoid infecting or sickening yourself.

Living in a climate with four distinct seasons, my skin tone changes in the sunnier months, even with sunscreen and hats.  Cosmetics that go on the skin would need to be changed up into colours that worked with the changed skin tone.  So that might happen several times a year.  And the products might be expired by the time that season rolls around next year.

There’s certainly pleasure, collector, trend, and aesthetic aspects that Metalcat detailed.  But what might be considered fairly basic maintenance can still require a fair number of ongoing purchases.  Or acceptance of the social and professional consequences of looking less good than others, which can negate the value of time and money savings from not striving in the arms race.

Ugh, so true. The seasonal changes of colour and skin texture are a major issue for keeping up with looking a certain way.

As I said earlier in this thread, I gave up wearing daily cosmetics for the most part, but only once I was immune to economic damage for doing so. I had to accrue an enormous amount of power, privilege, and autonomy in order to do that.

Still, I get regular Botox, I use multiple skin products, I sleep on silk pillow cases and use a specialized cervical pillow to prevent wrinkles. I don't drink alcohol, I wear sunscreen and hats, I keep my hair ultra short because it's actually more flattering on my aging face of than my long hair was, and I prioritize a lifestyle that allows me to always be well rested and lower my stress.

I'm vain as fuck. I just don't need to wear a lot of makeup to feel pretty.

But again, that's a privilege of not always looking tired and not always having people say that I look exhausted every time I don't spackle on a layer of flesh-coloured war paint to create a facsimile of looking rested.

Back when I was working and not wearing makeup, I looked like shit. Like really bad, I used to hate catching my reflection at the end of the day because I looked fucking horrid, especially under bright fluorescent lights, but again, I was in such a position of power and autonomy and I so wanted not to be sexualized that I happily leaned into looking fucking terrible.

I was channeling the classic look of the scientists I used to work with: comfy ill-fitting clothes sometimes stained, crazy uncombed hair, hell I would have worn socks and sandals if it met health and safety criteria, but I did wear white socks with black rubber Croc shoes, which was just as hideous, lol.

But my messaging was "I don't fucking need to look good for you, I'm a goddamn genius mutherfucker." It worked with my whole rude, confrontational, swearing like a trucker and openly insulting patients approach that I actively cultivated, sort of like a female Dr. House kind of vibe, minus the opioid addiction.

But until I had cultivated that level of reputation and clout, I was manicured to within an inch of my life with a lunchtime routine of reapplying my seasonally adapted war paint. A process that I affectionately referred to as "spackling my face on."