Frugality and OCPD

[coppertop]

My husband, who is 56 now, has apparently been known as "cheap" all his life, even as a teenager.  This caused a lot of trouble in his first marriage (to an apparent spendaholic), and his brother used to say:  The birdies are calling your name.  They're going 'Cheep!  Cheep!  Cheep!.'

I have had my periods of frugality and my periods of spending.  The difference between my husband and me is that I have had to learn these habits, and he seems to come by them naturally.  If I suggest he read a certain article or book, he tells me why bother - he's usually even more frugal than the person who wrote it. 

I believe he's also OPCD - although undiagnosed.  This makes him more able to stick with his plan, and he's rarely tempted to stray into spending except when there's a tool or something that he really needs.  He's a perfectionist in pretty much every area of his life.  He's a vegetarian who never strayed from the course once he decided that would be his lifestyle, and it's been more than 20 years now.  He's neat and clean and a hard worker.  The biggest problem with him is that he thinks if the rest of the world just got on the same path as he is on, it would be a much better place, and he doesn't have a lot of tolerance for those who refuse to see the light. 

Do any of you see yourselves as OCPD (Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder)?  This is different from OCD, which is the disorder where they can't stop washing their hands or turning the lock or checking to see that the lights are out or whatever. 

I believe my grandfather had OCPD also, but he was much different from my husband in that he was a hoarder and a miser and was stingy with his money.  My husband can be quite generous, and his lifestyle in general is what allows him to have the resources to be generous when he feels the time is right to be.

Thoughts?

[gbbi_977]

I'm posting to follow, because this is an interesting topic, but also to ask - could you tell us a little more about OPCD, as you understand it?

[Retired To Win]

... The difference between my husband and me is that I have had to learn these habits, and he seems to come by them naturally.  If I suggest he read a certain article or book, he tells me why bother - he's usually even more frugal than the person who wrote it. 

I believe he's also OPCD - although undiagnosed.  This makes him more able to stick with his plan, and he's rarely tempted to stray...

Do any of you see yourselves as OCPD (Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder)?...

Thoughts?

I don't see it as OCPD.  I think it's simply a process of behavior reinforcement, adaptation and behavioral momentum.  The more you do something, the easier it gets to do.  One develops "muscle memory" and has to think less and less about doing the behavior.  That's when it feels that the behavior comes "naturally."  Which it does (now) but did not to begin with.  It's all learned behavior.  PLUS, if the behavior has perceived positive outcomes for the person the reinforcement is made even stronger.

And this applies to good AND bad habits.  So... stay alert!

[wenchsenior]

Well, personality disorders are essentially far-edge-the-spectrum normal traits (normal traits extended to abnormality). My dad has OCPD, which became progressively more debilitating over his life time until he had screwed up all his relationships and is now miserable and constantly angry because the world and its people and events are not 1) predictable and controllable; and 2) won't conform to the 'best way' of doing things (his way).

OCPD is thought to develop as a combo of genetically inborn personality traits, combined with early environmental triggers (my dad was a classic case in these terms...constant childhood upheaval and he was showing symptoms by age 3). Two of us three daughters have some of the personality traits (inborn) that become extreme in OCPD, but none of us had the environmental triggers, so we don't fall anywhere close to the level of personality-disordered.

Example traits are conscientiousness, perfectionism, tendency to artificial imposition of order (list-making, goal setting), higher anxiety levels than average, liking for routine and habit. What my sister and I have found is that these traits can be really helpful in some cases (frugality/Mustachianism is certainly one), whereas others can cause us undue stress (perfectionism) or can occasionally impede quality/enjoyment of life (anxiety). 

So yes, I think OCPD traits can definitely contribute to frugality (in my dad's case, to the point of miserliness). My sister and I just recognize (to the extent that is difficult for my dad, with his actively disordered thought patterns) that we aren't necessarily 'correct' in our way of approaching things, and that there are downsides to these traits, which we actively arrange our lives to try to reduce. For example, I use cognitive behavioral therapy techniques to keep myself happier and calmer and to combat my tendency to worry unproductively. We recognize too that the traits get stronger when we are under stress, which is sometimes helpful and sometimes not.

[wenchsenior]

My husband, who is 56 now, has apparently been known as "cheap" all his life, even as a teenager.  This caused a lot of trouble in his first marriage (to an apparent spendaholic), and his brother used to say:  The birdies are calling your name.  They're going 'Cheep!  Cheep!  Cheep!.'

I have had my periods of frugality and my periods of spending.  The difference between my husband and me is that I have had to learn these habits, and he seems to come by them naturally.  If I suggest he read a certain article or book, he tells me why bother - he's usually even more frugal than the person who wrote it. 

I believe he's also OPCD - although undiagnosed.  This makes him more able to stick with his plan, and he's rarely tempted to stray into spending except when there's a tool or something that he really needs.  He's a perfectionist in pretty much every area of his life.  He's a vegetarian who never strayed from the course once he decided that would be his lifestyle, and it's been more than 20 years now.  He's neat and clean and a hard worker.  The biggest problem with him is that he thinks if the rest of the world just got on the same path as he is on, it would be a much better place, and he doesn't have a lot of tolerance for those who refuse to see the light. 

Do any of you see yourselves as OCPD (Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder)?  This is different from OCD, which is the disorder where they can't stop washing their hands or turning the lock or checking to see that the lights are out or whatever. 

I believe my grandfather had OCPD also, but he was much different from my husband in that he was a hoarder and a miser and was stingy with his money.  My husband can be quite generous, and his lifestyle in general is what allows him to have the resources to be generous when he feels the time is right to be.

Thoughts?

Also, it is really interesting how one element of OCPD seems to manifest as the maniacally clean and organized minimalist OR the hoarder. My dad is the minimalist sort, which usually I am happy about, though he had an irritating tendency to compulsively give away or throw out things that I kind of wish I now had access to (e.g., perfectly good sailboards).

[wenchsenior]

I'm posting to follow, because this is an interesting topic, but also to ask - could you tell us a little more about OPCD, as you understand it?

Good old Wiki to the rescue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive%E2%80%93compulsive_personality_disorder

[coppertop]

Example traits are conscientiousness, perfectionism, tendency to artificial imposition of order (list-making, goal setting), higher anxiety levels than average, liking for routine and habit. What my sister and I have found is that these traits can be really helpful in some cases (frugality/Mustachianism is certainly one), whereas others can cause us undue stress (perfectionism) or can occasionally impede quality/enjoyment of life (anxiety). 


This pretty closely describes my best beloved.  I understand him, so I allow him some leeway - but there are times when he drives me crazy and I have to put my foot down.  Difference is that he is quite introspective nowadays and realizes that his behaviors and thoughts are beyond the pale at times, and he doesn't want to screw up our relationship, so he really tries to moderate his behaviors. 

My grandfather got so bad toward the end, after my grandmother had died and was no longer there to control his hoarding, that he had horrible rotting food in his truck and you could only walk in a pathway through his house.  He'd go hungry with hundreds of dollars in his pocket and thousands in the bank.  My dad would say, "Pop, why didn't you use that money to eat?" and he'd say, "I'm saving it for my old age."  My dad would reply, "Pop, this is your old age!"  He was miserly and mean, but it was also sad.

[Retired To Win]

Example traits are conscientiousness, perfectionism, tendency to artificial imposition of order (list-making, goal setting), higher anxiety levels than average, liking for routine and habit. What my sister and I have found is that these traits can be really helpful in some cases (frugality/Mustachianism is certainly one), whereas others can cause us undue stress (perfectionism) or can occasionally impede quality/enjoyment of life (anxiety). 


This pretty closely describes my best beloved...

Up to a point, it also describes me!

I was going to start this post with "Ouch!"  But then I realized that I DON'T find fault with my "conscientiousness, perfectionism, tendency to artificial (??) imposition of order (list-making, goal setting)... or liking for routine and habit."  Having learned to ease off on the perfectionism, the rest provides me with a very satisfying sense of life order and control.  I like it.

However, I definitely do not identify with the "higher anxiety levels than average."  Being in control and being anxious strike me as contrary to each other.

[Frankies Girl]

My dad definitely sounds like he might have had OCPD. My whole family displays both OCPD/OCD traits. I myself am diagnosed with being on the OCD spectrum (not debilitating or even noticeable really, thank goodness due to lots of therapy), but I do think I also am OCPD as well.

Full blown hoarder. Highly intelligent. Anxiety issues, lots of lists (I do this too), had to have a set routine, very black and white on any issue you could name, unable to empathize or see any other viewpoints. He was brilliant, but had a screw loose (he held several U.S. patents and was a chemist/mathematician).

He grew up one of four children raised by a single mother (widowed) during the depression, so that shaped everything after. He always was pretty cheap, hoarded mostly food and clothing, after retirement, started in on hobby items (lost count of the golf clubs, but over 40 golf bags). He got progressively worse as time went on. He saved anything broken thinking he'd eventually get around to fixing, but then when that item broke it would be added to the "need to fix" pile, resulting in things like having 10 lawn mowers rusting along the backside of the house.

He started spending lots of money on shopping clearance outlets and garage sales. Things he believed were a good buy or something he might need, or something he could give to us. I had to tell him to stop buying anything for me for my birthday/x-mas due to the fact that he was using that as an excuse to buy more crap that would never leave his house, or end up just being more crap for me to dispose of (and he would get angry or sad at me if I told him I got rid of something). It was never anything really good or useful either, but I realized that the act of accumulating had been justified by him believing that he was doing something good for his kids. Instead of asking what we wanted or needed, he would throw money away on things he perceived as valuable because they were cheaply had. And then once he was told we didn't want or need the things, he would just keep buying them, but throw the things on the piles in each room, to the point where there were no usable rooms any more...just piles of junk slowly decaying into uselessness.

Another funny/sad thing - he collected tons of glassware/drinking glasses. Would buy dishes galore. Enough to outfit a dozen households. And yet he ate off of the same 3-4 plates and bowls and drank from the same cups every day and never used any of the "new" stuff, because he never had visitors and couldn't bring himself to use any of the "good" stuff.

But he still was cheap; he only bought the on sale/clearance things. Just tons of it. So it was an odd juxtaposition. Wasting gobs of money AND being miserly.

[wenchsenior]

Example traits are conscientiousness, perfectionism, tendency to artificial imposition of order (list-making, goal setting), higher anxiety levels than average, liking for routine and habit. What my sister and I have found is that these traits can be really helpful in some cases (frugality/Mustachianism is certainly one), whereas others can cause us undue stress (perfectionism) or can occasionally impede quality/enjoyment of life (anxiety). 


This pretty closely describes my best beloved...

Up to a point, it also describes me!

I was going to start this post with "Ouch!"  But then I realized that I DON'T find fault with my "conscientiousness, perfectionism, tendency to artificial (??) imposition of order (list-making, goal setting)... or liking for routine and habit."  Having learned to ease off on the perfectionism, the rest provides me with a very satisfying sense of life order and control.  I like it.

However, I definitely do not identify with the "higher anxiety levels than average."  Being in control and being anxious strike me as contrary to each other.

Well, not seeing any downside to these traits is actually starting to edge out onto the side of 'disordered thinking' if you think YOU are absolutely correct in your super-controlled  habits, and that the rest of the world sucks and should conform to your system. That is definitely a warning sign. If you just find that your system works well for you, and you realize other ways of managing work well for others, then that's more just regular personality traits.

Also, in OCPD, you are correct that the control/anxiety are contrary: it is exactly the sense of things being OUT of control that tends to make the OCPDer anxious...unknown situations, spontaneous occurrences, that sort of thing...they don't like it, so they strictly order their routine and environment so as to reduce anxiety and uncertainty. If they can't exert control over things, or limit their anxiety, it often tends to come out as anger. My OCPD father was more or less constantly angry or irritated, unless he could exert control.

For example, he couldn't just take a road trip....he had to plan down to the hour and the mile. If he got off-schedule by a few hours (even for a fun reason such as spending more time than planned at a great natural attraction, etc.) he'd fret and get anxious. If you were visiting him, you needed to tell him well in advance exactly when you were arriving, how long you were staying, etc., and then STICK TO IT.  If it was hunting season, he kept strict track of his grouse-kill count, and how it compared to all the years before. Then he'd put his grouse in his freezer, strictly ordered by date, with the oldest years top and a chart taped to the top of the freezer reminding him of the layout and what was in each layer.

When he took a shower, he would meticulously wipe down the shower EVERY TIME using only one particular kind of cloth, so that water marks would never appear on the glass. If someone else happened to be staying at his house, he wouldn't trust them to do it correctly, but would rearrange his schedule to be available after every person showered, so that HE could wipe it down properly.

He would get irrationally angry if friends hailed him while he was standing in the checkout line at the grocery store, because couldn't that friend see that it would distract him from being able to make sure the check-out person wasn't making any errors or stealing from him?

He couldn't cope with the fact that people are a mix of good and bad traits...he wants things to be clearly good or bad, black or white...ambiguity creates anxiety. Needless to say, he would put friends and loved ones on a pedestal until they did something clearly contrary to what he thought acceptable. Then, they became 'worthless' and he would cut them off emotionally.

One of his sisters was born mildly mentally disabled and with epilepsy. Needless to say, she was a minimal achiever. He had little empathy for her. Her disabled affect, her weight, her limitations, just made him angry and he classified her as "gross and bad".

And in all of these cases, it never occurred to him to consider that his view of things might be skewed. To him, it was the rest of the world that was constantly screwing up...he was superior.

THAT is severe OCPD.

[Retired To Win]

Example traits are conscientiousness, perfectionism, tendency to artificial imposition of order (list-making, goal setting), higher anxiety levels than average, liking for routine and habit. What my sister and I have found is that these traits can be really helpful in some cases (frugality/Mustachianism is certainly one), whereas others can cause us undue stress (perfectionism) or can occasionally impede quality/enjoyment of life (anxiety). 


This pretty closely describes my best beloved...

Up to a point, it also describes me!

I was going to start this post with "Ouch!"  But then I realized that I DON'T find fault with my "conscientiousness, perfectionism, tendency to artificial (??) imposition of order (list-making, goal setting)... or liking for routine and habit."  Having learned to ease off on the perfectionism, the rest provides me with a very satisfying sense of life order and control.  I like it.

However, I definitely do not identify with the "higher anxiety levels than average."  Being in control and being anxious strike me as contrary to each other.

Well, not seeing any downside to these traits is actually starting to edge out onto the side of 'disordered thinking' if you think YOU are absolutely correct in your super-controlled  habits, and that the rest of the world sucks and should conform to your system. That is definitely a warning sign. If you just find that your system works well for you, and you realize other ways of managing work well for others, then that's more just regular personality traits...

The bolded text above is my ticket!  You do your thing and I'll do mine. :D

[wenchsenior]

Full blown hoarder. Highly intelligent. Anxiety issues, lots of lists (I do this too), had to have a set routine, very black and white on any issue you could name, unable to empathize or see any other viewpoints. He was brilliant, but had a screw loose (he held several U.S. patents and was a chemist/mathematician).

Oh, yeah...the unable to see other viewpoints or empathize thing. I'm not sure if this is entirely due to OCPD in my Dad's case, since he also had co-morbid Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Another classic Dad anecdote: one time, he calls his local bank around mid morning, with a question about his account. Leaves a message, waits for a callback. It's a minor question, but that isn't the POINT. He doesn't leave his house, but plans his day to wait for this call. There's no response. Now, this is, of course, an irritating situation and poor customer service, but there's all kinds of potential explanations ranging from a dropped message, to a customer service person out sick for the day, to higher priority calls that are urgent sucking up the customer service time, etc.

These explantions hold NO weight with my father. In fact, they never even occur to him. Does he try calling again to follow up? No, why should HE have to waste his time tracking down the WORTHLESS employees at that bank that is run by amateurs. He becomes enraged. He's had his money with this bank for decades, how dare they ignore him, etc etc. In fact, as the day goes on, it occurs to him that almost all bankers he's ever known in his life are lazy losers, who wouldn't work a full day unless forced! In fact, this entire country has gone to hell since he was young! Because people have all become lazy losers (except him)!

By 5 pm, he packs a blanket and pillow in his car and drives down to the bank to sleep in their parking lot overnight, so he can be waiting by the doors when those lazy bastards come to open the bank the next morning, and harangue whomever he can find about their terrible customer service.

Then, when telling this story to me or others, he's so proud of himself...expects me to be proud, too, and tell him what a badass he is. He was amazed when I told him that was completely unhinged behavior.