FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?

[Malaysia41]

I'm watching FRONTLINE: Poor Kids.  It is a documentary where kids describe their hardships in poverty. 

It is uncomfortable to watch.  Mainly because it seems they have overinflated and consumer-based ideas of what constitutes a good life. Some examples:

In one scene, the daughter asks her father, who has been unemployed for months, when the cable might be turned off.  I'm thinking many things to ask the father.
1. If you knew you weren't going to be able to pay the cable bill, why haven't you already called to terminate?
2. (The MMM mantra): Why on earth do you have cable?
3. Do you not see the richness around you? Mom. Dad. Daughter. Son.  House, yard, toys.

[my internal-JUDGEMENT-detection-alarm-system is ringing at this point.]

But then... THEN!  They do a segment on how hungry his kids get.  Why on EARTH do you have CABLE???? Plus, why is your kid asking about the cable bill in a totally defeated tone of voice? 

Then in the next segment a kid describes in a dejected tone, 'when it was good': "when we had a 42 inch flat screen TV in my parent's bedroom," among other things.   

Later a ten year old says, "I'd just like to go explore the world, but I'm never going to be able to do this, because these days everything is expensive.  I watched one (TV) show where it said they're raising the gas prices. We can't even afford gas. " Her dreams of living a full life are clearly crushed, worrying about, of all absurd things, gas prices!

These kids can't be coming up with this stuff themselves.  I guess it comes from TV, news, their parents and neighbors.  A lot has got to be coming from their parents, and if so it is horrifying to learn that people are teaching their kids to have the attitude of defeat, the perspective of a victim who has no agency in their lives. 

It is a major bummer their incomes are below the poverty level.  I sympathize with that situation.  That has got to cause stress.   I imagine that in this stress, and in the frenzy to find a job, there are probably scant few extra mental cycles to think about how to optimally raise a kid. But PLEASE!  Give them hope!  Love them in the moment.  Tell them they CAN do anything they want. 

I don't want this post to turn into rants against poor people having cable.  Yes everyone here knows that is a lousy expense to put one's scarce resources toward.  That said, I don't know what I want this thread TO be.  Up to you.

[edits for punctuation & grammar]

[MoneyCat]

As one of our resident escapees from poverty, let me try to explain the mindset of the poor to you.  Poor people have extremely skewed priorities which are largely a product of desperation for social status.  The poor place a lot of value on frivolous status items like iPhones, expensive TVs, game systems, expensive subscription TV, jewelry, name-brand designer clothing, $300 sneakers, etc. because these items will help them gain the respect and acceptance of their peers.  When I was growing up, I was tormented by other kids because I wore $10 sneakers from Payless and Walmart blue jeans and as a result I had very few friends and fewer options for networking.  If you do not have status, it is very difficult to build a strong social network that you can depend on for help.  Young impoverished men also want to present themselves as wealthier than they are to attract impoverished young women who see men's value solely in their material possessions.

We look at these people and think "What is wrong with them?"  It is obvious to all of us that the way out of poverty is to cut your expenses, get educated, get job skills, and start saving money.  Poor people who have no one to show them the way -- and whose entire worldview is built on advertising and hyperconsumerism -- have a very difficult time getting out of their self-destructive mindset.

[Malaysia41]

We look at these people and think "What is wrong with them?"  It is obvious to all of us that the way out of poverty is to cut your expenses, get educated, get job skills, and start saving money.  Poor people who have no one to show them the way -- and whose entire worldview is built on advertising and hyperconsumerism -- have a very difficult time getting out of their self-destructive mindset.

Yeah - and then bigger question.  Beyond 'what is wrong with them', but, 'what actions to take to fix this?'  How do we get this message out that the 'perfect life' pitched by marketers is not. It seems there is a lot of attitude conditioning going on here.  It reminds me of a fascinating study that followed kids around with their parents.  One researcher observed that, on the way to the doctor, a typical affluent mother coached her son to ask the Dr. any questions that might occur to him during the visit, and think of some to ask on the way to the clinic.  In doing this little thing, she taught him that he has personal agency, has the right to ask questions, to seek information from professionals... on and on.

In contrast, the poor mother did no coaching.  During the visit, her obsequious behavior taught her child to fear authority, and to avoid engaging with the world as an equal, worthwhile, curious kid.

[Samala]

In case anyone wanted to watch it: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/poor-kids/

I caught this show when it first aired and have re-watched it a handful of times.  I find myself strangely fascinated with documentaries that attempt to cover some of the impact of the recent recession.  I have to say using the kids' perspective in this one makes for an uncomfortable experience at times.  I love working with kids.. and have always found it hard to accept when they must face struggle out of no fault of their own.  (The scene where Kaylie has to give up her dog is so evocative.. you want to reach thru the screen and comfort her.) 

But we all struggle at some point.  The determination that each of the families shows.. to stay together and keep trying.. is nothing short of mesmerizing.  Johnny's family could have had a whole show on just them if you ask me (and MMM readers could ask lots of questions about their commute to his job).  The great thing though?  Even he articulates that he has to get good grades and rise above the situation he finds himself in now.

Social mobility and poverty are such complex topics.  A recent NatGeo article on food insecurity is also interesting: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/foodfeatures/hunger/

[hexdexorex]

Many aspects of being frugal are cultural and unfortunately that is not in America's culture. Obviously there is some blame on the parents for putting money towards cable...or even having kids when they are dirt poor. But after watching it, all of that blame game stuff goes away when the concept is starving children. We as a nation can def afford to feed those who cant help themselves.

[Rural]

As one of our resident escapees from poverty, let me try to explain the mindset of the poor to you.  Poor people have extremely skewed priorities which are largely a product of desperation for social status.  The poor place a lot of value on frivolous status items like iPhones, expensive TVs, game systems, expensive subscription TV, jewelry, name-brand designer clothing, $300 sneakers, etc. because these items will help them gain the respect and acceptance of their peers.  When I was growing up, I was tormented by other kids because I wore $10 sneakers from Payless and Walmart blue jeans and as a result I had very few friends and fewer options for networking.  If you do not have status, it is very difficult to build a strong social network that you can depend on for help.  Young impoverished men also want to present themselves as wealthier than they are to attract impoverished young women who see men's value solely in their material possessions.

We look at these people and think "What is wrong with them?"  It is obvious to all of us that the way out of poverty is to cut your expenses, get educated, get job skills, and start saving money.  Poor people who have no one to show them the way -- and whose entire worldview is built on advertising and hyperconsumerism -- have a very difficult time getting out of their self-destructive mindset.

As another of our resident escapees from poverty, let me tell you that this is categorically not the mindset of "the poor," as if there were some monolithic group of "the poor," all exactly alike, and, ironically, without agency.


 Do some of the poor place a high value on frivolous status items? Yes, and so do some of the middle class, etc. Do some young women, poor or otherwise, value men primarily for their earning power? Undoubtedly, sadly, this is true. None of it has anything to do with income or assets, and none of it describes those who live below the poverty line any more than any other stereotype.


I am sorry, MoneyCats, because I know this must come across as harsh, and I've read quite a few of your posts, enough to know that what you say is true and real and comes from your lived experience. But it's your lived experience and was true in your life; it's not at all universal. Saying "this is what the poor are like" is no more fair, true, or, frankly, acceptable than saying "this is what all black people are like."

[EricL]

In my memories of being poor two things stand out:
1. A mortal fear that things would get worse and worse and minimum wage jobs were futile.
2. A near crippling inferiority complex exacerbated by the feeling everyone was richer than me.  (which at least appeared true)

I was never god awful poor - generally I always got three hots and a cot somewhere.  Nor was I poor for a particularly long time.  So my fears were kind of silly but it sure the hell didn't feel like it at the time.  So I'm a little more sympathetic to the poor.  Do they make dumb money choices?  Damn skippy.  But if you look closely those lame purchases are to keep their morale up under all the stress.  Or to look like they're maintaining some stability if they're falling down the economic ladder.  You'll note the rich buy the same types of junk for much the same reasons but without the stress as an excuse.  But at least they can afford it.

[MrsPete]

As another of our resident escapees from poverty, let me tell you that this is categorically not the mindset of "the poor," as if there were some monolithic group of "the poor," all exactly alike, and, ironically, without agency.

As another member of this not-so-exclusive club, I can relate to Money Cat's comment.  I won't say they're 100% identical to my experience, but I definitely had some kinship with these thoughts.  Fortunately, I was aware of short-term vs. long-term goals, and I always knew that education meant more than one nice outfit . . . not everyone has that awareness.

[lifejoy]

In case anyone wanted to watch it: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/poor-kids/

I caught this show when it first aired and have re-watched it a handful of times.  I find myself strangely fascinated with documentaries that attempt to cover some of the impact of the recent recession.  I have to say using the kids' perspective in this one makes for an uncomfortable experience at times.  I love working with kids.. and have always found it hard to accept when they must face struggle out of no fault of their own.  (The scene where Kaylie has to give up her dog is so evocative.. you want to reach thru the screen and comfort her.) 

But we all struggle at some point.  The determination that each of the families shows.. to stay together and keep trying.. is nothing short of mesmerizing.  Johnny's family could have had a whole show on just them if you ask me (and MMM readers could ask lots of questions about their commute to his job).  The great thing though?  Even he articulates that he has to get good grades and rise above the situation he finds himself in now.

Social mobility and poverty are such complex topics.  A recent NatGeo article on food insecurity is also interesting: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/foodfeatures/hunger/

Thanks for the link. I'll watch it and come back with thoughts :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[escolegrove]

I have not watched this show. I use to feel bad until I became a grown up and really see it. I saw a lot of people at college take out huge loans for fluff majors, make  awful grades and barely pass. Than they wonder why they can't find a job. Lets just say college wasn't fun, I had a hard major, worked full time between two jobs to graduate without loans AND have a good job.

 We want to retire at 42 and 44 so we are investing every penny we can into our buy and hold real estate houses. We buy a lot of our stuff used. My husband is active duty and our base has a buy, sale, trade Facebook page. Do you know who I buy 90% of my items in great condition from, the enlisted. Those who make the lease amount of money. In my experience they are constantly selling 8 month -2 year old furniture because they are remodeling. I still have our goodwill furniture from 5 years ago. There are 3 items we bought new our guest mattress, one of our couches and my husbands desk.

I work for a county. Guess what because of the drought many of the small towns have water issue because the wells are running dry. They are STILL watering the lawn. We have to give out water because it is undrinkable. The same people that are complaining haven't paid their water bill in month or years. These are landlords that are the true term of slumlords!

I use to feel bad but after working in the public sector I find that unfortunately 90% of the people make their own bed. The other have more resources than I have to succeed.
 

[austin]

This is why we have the safety net - these kids are born into this environment in a country which acculturates them this way. I'm glad I was fortunate enough to be born into a frugal family that for the most part understood the value of money.

[MoneyCat]

Ok, I just finished watching the documentary and I have to say that I really feel sorry for these families.  Some of the parents demonstrate the fact that most poor people either A.) already suffer from a mental illness that has resulted in their poverty of B.) develop a mental illness from the stresses they face from poverty.  People say they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps, but really it's more like trying to climb out of a deep hole you fell into while the side are caving in and people on the top tell you that throwing you a rope wouldn't teach you responsibility.

Are there some things the families could have done differently?  Of course.  The first thing to go should have been the cable TV.  Instead of falling behind on rent, they should have sold some of their stuff on Craigslist -- like the flatscreen TVs the one boy wistfully remembers.  When the contractor father had been pulling in $5000/mo, he should have put most of that money away instead of spending it on frivolous stuff.  However, most people live in a fantasyland concocted by Madison Ave. marketers who tell them that they need to spend every penny they have on building a "lifestyle".  On these boards, we know how foolish that is but the average American has no idea.

This documentary actually brought back a lot of memories from my childhood.  We never ended up homeless, but we did get food from food pantries and soup kitchens, and we got clothes from donations.  I received free school lunches as well.  It's not an easy life and it's even harder when people purposefully misinform you about how to escape from it, just so they can squeeze a few pennies out of you.

[MayDay]

I didn't watch the documentary, but I did read the Nat Geo article.  It is a good summary of the various issues- food desserts, making poor decisions under time constraints and with high stress, getting 3 weeks of food from SNAP benefits and depending on soup kitchens after that, etc. 

I especially liked that they did cover one family who did everything "right"- the mom foraged for food, gardened, canned, etc, and fed her family very healthfully and had a good supply of food in hand.  And the article made an important point- that mom didn't work, and she made their food her full time job.  She had the luxury being able to live of her husband's disability (as opposed to a single mom, etc) so she had the time to do that stuff.  She also lived in a rural area where she could garden and they could make ends meet on disability without her having to go out and get a minimum wage job. 

I was telling H about the article and he questioned why I cut the people some slack for the stress-----> poor decisions (like the homeless mom taking her kids through the drive through for gizzards*) but I don't cut his sister slack for being a financial train wreck.  The difference to me is that his sister actually has an amazing safety net such as her mother financing car repairs, and letting her move in, and providing free childcare.  Yet despite that she continually makes bad choices.  She isn't under stress which leads to poor choices, she just always makes poor choices. 

*Are gizzards some sort of innards of a turkey, and why in the world would anyone want to eat those? Ewwwww.

[Rural]

I especially liked that they did cover one family who did everything "right"- the mom foraged for food, gardened, canned, etc, and fed her family very healthfully and had a good supply of food in hand.  And the article made an important point- that mom didn't work, and she made their food her full time job.  She had the luxury being able to live of her husband's disability (as opposed to a single mom, etc) so she had the time to do that stuff.  She also lived in a rural area where she could garden and they could make ends meet on disability without her having to go out and get a minimum wage job. 

This is important to know. Subsistence living is full-time work, or more than. It's hard, and it's highly skilled labor in a way we don't often think of any more.

[Zamboni]

*Shrug* my mom always ate the gizzard.

I think it totally sucks to be a poor kid. 

I can only speak for myself, but a lot of what I saw growing up as a child in a poor neighborhood was this cycle:
1) parents who worked but could not afford any sort of child care, so everyone was left to their own devices.
2) parents who were largely absent mentally (due to exhaustion from work, mental health issues, and/or substance abuse) even when they were physically present, leaving even very young children unsupervised or supervised by older siblings.  Forget about "enriching activities."
3) children with nearly nothing, but guilt causing the above parents to randomly and impulsively buy things they simply can't afford for their children (a gaming system, fancy clothes, or pet being perfect examples of this, with the added bonus that the parent doesn't have time to take care of the pet either.)
4) financial situation deteriorating even more from these impulsive purchases, causing more stress/depression/substance abuse/longer working hours.
And around it went.

I had several friends within a block who had neither "normal" furniture nor food in their residences.  It's quite a powerless feeling to visit a friend and realize this.  We were sequestered in the "poor" elementary school, so the social pressure to have more than 2 shirts didn't ramp up until jr high when we were merged with more affluent children.  I would say that the "pressure to impress" really ramped up in high school, but it's sort of a moot point because most of my nearest neighbors didn't make it very far into high school, and those of us who did just accepted that we were outcasts.

[Goldielocks]

*Are gizzards some sort of innards of a turkey, and why in the world would anyone want to eat those? Ewwwww.

Off topic...
I would rather eat the innards, that the outters!


LOL

[Bigote]

In case anyone wanted to watch it: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/poor-kids/

I caught this show when it first aired and have re-watched it a handful of times.  I find myself strangely fascinated with documentaries that attempt to cover some of the impact of the recent recession.  I have to say using the kids' perspective in this one makes for an uncomfortable experience at times.  I love working with kids.. and have always found it hard to accept when they must face struggle out of no fault of their own.  (The scene where Kaylie has to give up her dog is so evocative.. you want to reach thru the screen and comfort her.) 

But we all struggle at some point.  The determination that each of the families shows.. to stay together and keep trying.. is nothing short of mesmerizing.  Johnny's family could have had a whole show on just them if you ask me (and MMM readers could ask lots of questions about their commute to his job).  The great thing though?  Even he articulates that he has to get good grades and rise above the situation he finds himself in now.

Social mobility and poverty are such complex topics.  A recent NatGeo article on food insecurity is also interesting: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/foodfeatures/hunger/

Finally had a chance to watch this, thanks for the link.   

Very sad indeed, seeing life through these kids' eyes.

[puglogic]

As another of our resident escapees from poverty, let me tell you that this is categorically not the mindset of "the poor," as if there were some monolithic group of "the poor," all exactly alike, and, ironically, without agency.
......Saying "this is what the poor are like" is no more fair, true, or, frankly, acceptable than saying "this is what all black people are like."

Word, Rural. 

[libertarian4321]

As one of our resident escapees from poverty, let me try to explain the mindset of the poor to you.  Poor people have extremely skewed priorities which are largely a product of desperation for social status.  The poor place a lot of value on frivolous status items like iPhones, expensive TVs, game systems, expensive subscription TV, jewelry, name-brand designer clothing, $300 sneakers, etc. because these items will help them gain the respect and acceptance of their peers.  When I was growing up, I was tormented by other kids because I wore $10 sneakers from Payless and Walmart blue jeans and as a result I had very few friends and fewer options for networking. 

It depends on the poor person.

My brother and I both did the wardrobe by Kmart thing when we were kids.  He grew up with the mindset that his wife and kids should "have the things he never had growing up" and, hence, is living on the ragged edge financially, despite good incomes.

On the other hand, I wore those same Kmart shoes, and I don't give a rat's ass about "status" symbols.

I've got no problem looking like a working class stiff. 

I'd rather be the Millionaire Next Door and look poor, than be poor and look the way Americans think a millionaire should look.

[libertarian4321]

*Shrug* my mom always ate the gizzard.

My mom still does, at 80+, even though she no longer has to.  She convinced herself that it's a delicacy.  :)  She still cleans the bones of a chicken of parts that even dogs won't eat.  I think it's a "Depression" mentality.

I'm glad she liked the damned gizzard, because I sure as heck never wanted to eat it!

[Neustache]

I grew up in the poor school of our lower middle class school district.  I don't remember anyone getting teased for not having the right shoes - but then it makes sense that when we merged for the middle/high that it could have happened then, and I was oblivious.

For a really uplifting movie based on a true story - watch "Gifted Hands" starring Cuba Gooding Jr.  It's a story about a single, illiterate mom who forced her kids (namely, the famous Ben Carson) to read 2 books a week, write reports that she couldn't read, and the two young men's subsequent rise through school and out of poverty.  Definitely uplifting..and true! 

[Albert]

I just happened to browse through the same National Geographic article in German while waiting for a doctor. I wonder what kind of message it sends about US to those who have never been there.

[dadof4]

Social mobility and poverty are such complex topics.  A recent NatGeo article on food insecurity is also interesting: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/foodfeatures/hunger/

Just read the article on a NG I had lying around. I remember reading a similar thing a few years ago and nodding my head in sympathy. Now I just want to facepunch those parents. Their situations are all self imposed. Some quotes about these hungry poor that irked me:

"She shakes the last seven chicken nuggets onto a battered baking sheet, adds the remnants of a bag of Tater Tots ...her own lunch will be the bits of potato left on the kids’ plates."  -[for the cost of those processed tater tots, you could buy a 15 pound bag of potatoes and not have to worry about crumbs (or hydrogenated oils, sodium etc.).]

"Fresh fruits and vegetables are eaten only in the first days after the SNAP payment arrives."  [suggesting a complete inability to plan even one month ahead]

"They drive cars, which are a necessity, not a luxury, here... Consumer electronics can be bought on installment plans, so the hungry rarely lack phones or televisions." [No comment.]

"Healthful food can be hard to find in so-called food deserts" [because reaching a grocery store once a week is impossible, just like the Sahara]

"Christian pulls into the drive-through and orders a combo of fried gizzards and okra for $8.11." [You can feed a family for that much, and in a healthy way]

"the refrigerator holds takeout boxes and beverages but little fresh food" [More bad decisions]

"To save time she often relies on premade food from grocery stores. 'You can’t go all the way home and cook' " [Why not cook at home and bring it to work?]

Etc. etc.

While I feel really sorry for the kids, the adults are the equivalent of a person banging their heads against a wall and wondering why it hurts.
So perhaps the takeaway is that instead of focusing on welfare, basic education is needed. Beginning with basic finances, budgets and buying and preparing food.

[Pooperman]

I've been poor, middle class (lower and upper), and mildly affluent in my life growing up. No matter what my current situation was, education was a given. I was to graduate college whether I wanted to or not. I did and it's worked well for me. The one thing I can say about poor people is the fairly pervasive 'get rich quick' mentality.

[golden1]

Relevant article on Vox that has been making the round.  http://www.vox.com/2014/9/26/6845435/being-poor-is-expensive

I know a lot of people around here just roll their eyes at this kind of thing, and I have a tendency to want to do it also, but I feel like until we really try to understand the mindset of a lot of people in poverty, we haven't got a prayer of correcting it.  A poster above mentioned that they didn't have the short term, hopeless mindset that is portrayed in the article or the documentary, and my question is, why not?

What makes some people able to break out of the mold?  Why are some people able to escape generational poverty, and others aren't?  Is it a positive role model, a lack of mental illness, inner fortitude and grit, being the right race, hard work or just plain luck?  If it is some external factor, how can we expose the poor to it?  If it is an internal personality trait, is there a way to foster that in people? 

It is so easy to judge and pat oneself on the back, but it doesn't really solve any problems.  I think a lot of people just find it easier to blame people and wash their hands of them - not my problem.  I think having generational poverty hurts us all, and working to fix it will bring benefits to society as a whole. 

[Johnez]

I've not seen the documentary, or read the article. My local paper has written up MANY articles regarding the poor children in Orange County though, there was even a documentary. Our family was one of the "motel" families. The poor here resided in the run down motels all over Anaheim an Garden Grove. Despite whatever those documentaries might show, the incongruences like having cable but not food, etc. there are real problems and realities that cannot be summed up in a tidy television special. Interesting problems like not being able to register for services and school because lack of address, inability to even qualify for assistance because of having too much in assets. Our main asset was our van, which was also our home. Had we had an actual house though we would've been A-ok. Have you ever tried finding an apartment after not being able to pay the bills for a while? Credit's shot, chances are slim even if you could scrounge together first and last month rent and deposit. There are poor people on buses too, chances are a good majority of the bus riders are under the poverty line. If you guys are critical of cable and cars, consider the inertia of a comfortable life probably hasn't met the full and total reality of poverty. Once you're in, it's difficult getting out. Long term planning is difficult. And having your children surrounded by drugs, alcohol, and prostitution isn't the wholesome environment that breeds the rags to riches idea some think can be accomplished so easily. The saying about walking a mile in their shoes is applicable here.

[tracylayton]

My mother raised 4 kids in the late 70's and early 80's while making $6500/year(below the poverty level) plus child support. She never took advantage of any government programs. She told us we could get free lunches at school, but we all took a sack lunch. We always had food in the house, albeit cheap food...hotdogs, peanut butter, etc. I owned 2 pairs of blue jeans and 5 shirts. Three of us earned college degrees, and my mother finally earned her degree at the age of 60 and then retired. Turns out that she opened IRAs every year since 1980 and started saving more every time she got a raise. We all got jobs as soon as we could and realized that nothing would be handed to us. We are an incredibly close family, in part because of our economic situation.

[allergic2average]

I grew up in the poor school of our lower middle class school district.  I don't remember anyone getting teased for not having the right shoes - but then it makes sense that when we merged for the middle/high that it could have happened then, and I was oblivious.

For a really uplifting movie based on a true story - watch "Gifted Hands" starring Cuba Gooding Jr.  It's a story about a single, illiterate mom who forced her kids (namely, the famous Ben Carson) to read 2 books a week, write reports that she couldn't read, and the two young men's subsequent rise through school and out of poverty.  Definitely uplifting..and true!

I'm curious, how can a school be poor if its in a middle class district?

[partgypsy]

I haven't seen the documentary but lived in a family where we initially had very little, to middle class, to a period of upper middle class, to my parents losing everything. Neither of my parents' immediate families were well-off for different reasons, but their families were considered "good", and had previous generations of their familiy who were either successful, educated or both. So I never felt poor growing up. Any financial tightness was considered temporary and we stuck with what worked traditionally (doing chores, home cooked meals, no fast food, one tv in house, no excessive spending). So growing up my parents were sensible about money (using money for either education or to invest in businesses versus material goods, modest vacations).
However in the 80's when father ended up making a lot of money, he bought a new car every other year, went on nicer vacations. One time my mother one time took me and my sister to a fancy department store and said we could not leave until we bought some nice clothes. She commented in distaste when we bought our clothes from a thrift store. I later found out when she was young she had to wear thrift stores hand me downs or things my grandmother made, and there was a couple times she wanted a particular item of clothing to fit in, and did not get them. So my parents did end up acting out when there was a lot of money involved (or maybe just acted like everyone else did in the 80's).
There was an implosion where businesses sequentially failed, a problem child, our grandfather was dying and my mother was dealing with that, and our parents went through a divorce. At that point I was a senior in college and pretty much on my own, but after all that, that situation was kind of like an explosion that my mother and most of my siblings never seemed to recover from; not finishing or shortening their education, doing much lower than expected career wise, and much lamenting of loss of family fortune.  So I think people's mindset can change with experience. With the way we were raised, my mother and sibs should have had the resources to deal and rise from situation but that loss of security really affected them and just live day to day, have unrealistic thoughts about stuff but no long term outlook or plan.

[yandz]

I would love to see data behind where the assumptions and attitudes on this page came from, but think this concept is fascinating.

http://www.thepovertychallenge.org/resources/could-you-survive-in-wealth/
ETA another similar survey: http://www.ahaprocess.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Social-Class-Hidden-Rules-Quiz.pdf

I used to live/volunteer with a non-profit in high poverty area and one of the points they made to us (middle class, early 20s, many just post college or in college)was that we knew how to operate in the middle class. We had been raised that way. It is just as hard for us to cross class lines (up or down) as it is for impoverished or wealthy to cross class lines.  Since they were our landlords, they knew our incomes (credit checks, applications) and said that actually 45% of us qualified for assistance programs (food, rent) but that their guess was 1) none of us knew that, 2) none of use would pursue it 3)we wouldn't know where to start if we wanted to.  Whereas for many others, it is a way of life they are well versed in. 

So while, yes, much of the issue in poverty is "bad decisions" are we really providing the right information and tools to break that cycle? How easy is it to change once you "know"? We know it is crazy hard. Possible, but hard. It definitely makes me look at social programs differently - what is perpetuating vs. actually helping - and has changed my charitable and volunteer contributions significantly.

[RelaxedGal]

Followup on some of the kids,

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/social-issues/poor-kids/whats-happened-to-brittany-jonny-and-kaylie/

Donations from viewers have helped all three.  That does make me wonder how much worse off they'd be without the donations/what happened to kids NOT profiled. 

[dude]

Great thread.  I grew up pretty solidly lower middle class, but went through a period of poverty line living from about 5th grade to freshman year in H.S., after parents divorced and mom was left with 3 young boys.  Mom had dropped out of H.S. and had no real job skills beyond waitressing she'd done.  But thank god, we had strong family support.  I know my grandparents kicked in money to make sure we had Christmas presents each year, adn they were always there to pick us up from school on half days or in other emergencies.  My mom busted ass selling ad space for a local paper, and got her G.E.D., at which point, she was able to get a third-shift bank clerical job sorting deposits or something like that.  Dad was very often behind on child support, sometimes for 6 months at a time.  I remember seeing one of the checks -- $88/week for 3 kids (which even in the late 70s/early 80s was not very much).  I wore what the kids at school called "pro plastics," i.e., the cheap, knock-off sneakers that were NOT Pro-Keds, which was the must-have footwear BITD, and damn, I felt the shame every friggin' day.  Used to be very envious of the food friends ate in their households, and just loved to get invited over for dinner to their houses, and sleepovers, so I got to eat the "good" cereals in the morning. Got free lunch tickets for school.  But mom never went on welfare.  Mom re-married to a good man; tough disciplinarian, but a solid, hard-working guy.  They had a child together, my sister, so there were six of us in that household.  Step-dad was regularly laid off for months at a time as a Union carpenter.  I have no idea how they fed a family of six on what he earned (and I got to find out exactly what they earned when I had to submit their tax returns to my law school to qualify for grants and loans, despite having been out of the house for nearly ten years between my military service and college time).  I don't know why I and my siblings all ended up well-adjusted and successful, but we did.  I think in my case, I didn't want to disappoint my mother after all I'd seen her go through, and how hard she worked to make a normal life for us.  Crazy.   So yeah, I have some sympathy for kids like those featured in the Poor Kids film.

[Bob W]

Cried a little reading this thread.     I've worked with poor people for a couple of decades.    I have one client now that I regularly deliver food to because she just can't figure out not to spend her SNAP money the first week on the month on convenience store food.  She does not want to cancel her cable or cell phone though.

No kids in this situation. 

For most kids they receive plenty of food stamps and school lunches these days.   Just that the parents spend the food money of prepackaged foods and pricy options.

If I have too,  I can feed my family of 3 on 3 dollars a day.   It wouldn't be a great diet but food stamps would provide us 4 times that much.   Biscuits and gravy are cheap and so are home mixed pancakes, potatoes etc...   

I'm not poor but went 7 years without cable.   I find that now that we have it our quality of life has diminished.   So hopefully it goes soon.  I'll have to fight the spouse and kid about that!

Being poor is hard on kids, but it is not as hard as growing up poor in most countries where people starve to death.   

 

[SisterX]

Relevant article on Vox that has been making the round.  http://www.vox.com/2014/9/26/6845435/being-poor-is-expensive

I know a lot of people around here just roll their eyes at this kind of thing, and I have a tendency to want to do it also, but I feel like until we really try to understand the mindset of a lot of people in poverty, we haven't got a prayer of correcting it.  A poster above mentioned that they didn't have the short term, hopeless mindset that is portrayed in the article or the documentary, and my question is, why not?

What makes some people able to break out of the mold?  Why are some people able to escape generational poverty, and others aren't?  Is it a positive role model, a lack of mental illness, inner fortitude and grit, being the right race, hard work or just plain luck?  If it is some external factor, how can we expose the poor to it?  If it is an internal personality trait, is there a way to foster that in people? 

It is so easy to judge and pat oneself on the back, but it doesn't really solve any problems.  I think a lot of people just find it easier to blame people and wash their hands of them - not my problem.  I think having generational poverty hurts us all, and working to fix it will bring benefits to society as a whole.

+1.  Excellently put.

I'm curious, how can a school be poor if its in a middle class district?

Because there can be more than one economic strata in one school district.  Mine had 3 high schools: one for the rich kids up the hill, one that straddled the classes a bit, but mostly middle class, and one for the poorer, more rural part of our district.

[Inevitable]

I grew up in a family where both of my parents were factory workers.  They lived paycheck to paycheck.  I remember them writing checks that they hoped wouldn't be cashed before their paycheck went into the bank.  I also remember eating fast food as an almost daily occurrence.  I don't look back and think that my parents did a bad job.  I think they did the best they could with what they had.  My mom worked midnight shifts while trying to raise three kids.  She was tired, so my dad would pick up fast food on his way home from work.  I can't justify their spending, but I'm also not going to judge them for doing what they knew.  It's only been within the past few years that I realized spending every dime was idiotic.  I grew up believing the only way to get rich was to get lucky (win the lottery, etc...).  I remember getting my first job and buying DirecTV for our house.  We were all very excited about it.  In hindsight I should have been saving that money for college, but you just don't know any better when you grow up broke.  We didn't own our first computer until I was 16 years old (it was an old Tandy 5 1/4" floppy machine.  I'm only 31, so many of you will understand how far behind that computer was).  My mom paid $60 for that computer, and that compute changed my life and my brother's life.  We learned to program in basic, and before long we were making our own video games.  A year or so later our aunt gave us her old computer (an old 486sx with the 25mhz processor inside).  It broke a few months later, and I took it apart and fixed it.  My brother went on to be a programmer, and I went on to do networking/pc repair.

Ok, so that got a bit long, but the point is that all it takes is one small thing to change the lives of these kids.  In my case, it was technology.  Who knows what it is for them.

I should probably go back and shorten that....but that seems like a lot of work :-P

[Malaysia41]

I grew up in a family where both of my parents were factory workers.  They lived paycheck to paycheck.  I remember them writing checks that they hoped wouldn't be cashed before their paycheck went into the bank.  I also remember eating fast food as an almost daily occurrence.  I don't look back and think that my parents did a bad job.  I think they did the best they could with what they had.  My mom worked midnight shifts while trying to raise three kids.  She was tired, so my dad would pick up fast food on his way home from work.  I can't justify their spending, but I'm also not going to judge them for doing what they knew.  It's only been within the past few years that I realized spending every dime was idiotic.  I grew up believing the only way to get rich was to get lucky (win the lottery, etc...).  I remember getting my first job and buying DirecTV for our house.  We were all very excited about it.  In hindsight I should have been saving that money for college, but you just don't know any better when you grow up broke. We didn't own our first computer until I was 16 years old (it was an old Tandy 5 1/4" floppy machine.  I'm only 31, so many of you will understand how far behind that computer was).  My mom paid $60 for that computer, and that compute changed my life and my brother's life.  We learned to program in basic, and before long we were making our own video games.  A year or so later our aunt gave us her old computer (an old 486sx with the 25mhz processor inside).  It broke a few months later, and I took it apart and fixed it.  My brother went on to be a programmer, and I went on to do networking/pc repair.

Ok, so that got a bit long, but the point is that all it takes is one small thing to change the lives of these kids.  In my case, it was technology.  Who knows what it is for them.

I should probably go back and shorten that....but that seems like a lot of work :-P

I think the dilemma is - how to educate people about money, without coming off as judgemental asses. 

And how cool is that about the computers.  You know, getting that tandy was probably a better learning tool for you and your brother than a more advanced computer would have been. It's easier to learn a simple microprocessor architecture and simple software language first.  Cool for you.

[Zamboni]

Really enjoyed your links, yandz.  Especially the table at the bottom of the first one that had purposes/attitudes for various categories.  The education one is right on the money.

[Inevitable]

I think the dilemma is - how to educate people about money, without coming off as judgemental asses. 

And how cool is that about the computers.  You know, getting that tandy was probably a better learning tool for you and your brother than a more advanced computer would have been. It's easier to learn a simple microprocessor architecture and simple software language first.  Cool for you.

I also didn't have it nearly as bad as a lot of people do.  I was mostly referring to the lack of financial education.  It was a cool computer btw :)

[prosaic]

A lot has got to be coming from their parents, and if so it is horrifying to learn that people are teaching their kids to have the attitude of defeat, the perspective of a victim who has no agency in their lives. 

This is so important. No agency. If you really believe you have no agency, then no amount of education or role modeling will make a difference. I know that sounds pessimistic, but I'm seeing it over and over again my my generation and now the 20somethings in my life, and it's horrifying.

If someone can TEACH agency, there's hope. Teaching budgeting and financial mindset is fine and all, but it's falling on deaf ears if the person has no concept that he/she can actually change their circumstances.

[sheepstache]

Really interesting perspectives here.  Thanks, everyone, for sharing.

[HawkeyeNFO]

I'm not poor but went 7 years without cable.

Why does that line seem so funny?

[libertarian4321]

I would love to see data behind where the assumptions and attitudes on this page came from, but think this concept is fascinating.

http://www.thepovertychallenge.org/resources/could-you-survive-in-wealth/
ETA another similar survey: http://www.ahaprocess.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Social-Class-Hidden-Rules-Quiz.pdf

I used to live/volunteer with a non-profit in high poverty area and one of the points they made to us (middle class, early 20s, many just post college or in college)was that we knew how to operate in the middle class. We had been raised that way. It is just as hard for us to cross class lines (up or down) as it is for impoverished or wealthy to cross class lines.  Since they were our landlords, they knew our incomes (credit checks, applications) and said that actually 45% of us qualified for assistance programs (food, rent) but that their guess was 1) none of us knew that, 2) none of use would pursue it 3)we wouldn't know where to start if we wanted to.  Whereas for many others, it is a way of life they are well versed in. 

So while, yes, much of the issue in poverty is "bad decisions" are we really providing the right information and tools to break that cycle? How easy is it to change once you "know"? We know it is crazy hard. Possible, but hard. It definitely makes me look at social programs differently - what is perpetuating vs. actually helping - and has changed my charitable and volunteer contributions significantly.

Holy Cow, that second link is crazy.  Their rules for "poverty" are especially obscene and ridiculous.

2. I know when Walmart, drug stores, and convenience stores throw away
over-the-counter medicine with expired dates.
3. I know which pawn shops sell DVDs for $1.

Here's a thought.  Skip the $1 DVD, watch free TV, and use the money to BUY generic prescriptions from Walmart for $4/month.

4. In my town in criminal courts, I know which judges are lenient, which ones
are crooked, and which ones are fair.
5. I know how to physically fi ght and defend myself physically.
6. I know how to get a gun, even if I have a police record.
21. I know which sections of town “belong” to which gangs

This is beyond idiotic.  It assumes that "poor" equates to "CRIMINAL."  Nothing is further from the truth.  Most poor people are not thugs or criminals.  I should also add that most poor people do NOT live in inner city ghettos.  You'll find more poor folks living in poor rural areas than in big city ghettos.

15. I know how to get and use food stamps or an electronic card for benefi ts.
16. I know where the free medical clinics are.
13. I know which churches will provide assistance with food or shelter.

I grew up below the official "poverty line," though we never considered ourselves really poor.

My family also NEVER took food stamps, welfare, etc.  My parents worked, as do most poor people.

7. I know how to keep my clothes from being stolen at the Laundromat.
9. I/my family use a payday lender.
10. I know how to live without electricity and a phone.
19. I know how to hide my car so the repo man cannot fi nd it.
20. We pay our cable-TV bill before we pay our rent.
14. I know how to move in half a day.

These seem to assume poor people are stupid, which many are not.  A Laundromat is expensive and a poor use of money.  One can buy a basic new washing machine for $300-400 on sale.  A lot less if you buy used.  Should last for years.  Payday lenders should be avoided by anyone with a brain unless it's a life or death situation.   Poor people may have to be careful with electricity and phone usage, but few are unable to afford them.  Being poor doesn't mean "hiding from the repo man."  It usually means buying a decent used car and making it last.  Numbers 20 and 14 (related) are so insane as to not be worthy of comment.

[nyxst]

My parents are great people.  We were poor, but I didn't know it.  I am an only child and they made sure I got every chance to do whatever I wanted to do.  Weird thing is, they just had no idea how college worked. My mom finished high school, my dad got his GED.  I grew up knowing that I was smart enough to do anything (they made sure I knew that) but that there was no money to send me to college, so I just shouldn't worry about that.  So, I didn't worry about it.  I had a kid at 18 and it looked like my life was set to be pretty crappy.  I had no idea that you could get someone else to pay for college.  But, whatever, they had no idea and I wasn't fortunate enough to get guidance from anyone who did know more.  So now I am 34 and I just finally finished my Associates Degree in June and am working on my Bachelor's now.  Things would have been different if they knew better, but they just didn't!  I had a great life, so I'm not complaining, but it is weird that thinks that seem so "obvious" can actually be the same things someone else is absolutely oblivious to. 

[Bob W]

My parents are great people.  We were poor, but I didn't know it.  I am an only child and they made sure I got every chance to do whatever I wanted to do.  Weird thing is, they just had no idea how college worked. My mom finished high school, my dad got his GED.  I grew up knowing that I was smart enough to do anything (they made sure I knew that) but that there was no money to send me to college, so I just shouldn't worry about that.  So, I didn't worry about it.  I had a kid at 18 and it looked like my life was set to be pretty crappy.  I had no idea that you could get someone else to pay for college.  But, whatever, they had no idea and I wasn't fortunate enough to get guidance from anyone who did know more.  So now I am 34 and I just finally finished my Associates Degree in June and am working on my Bachelor's now.  Things would have been different if they knew better, but they just didn't!  I had a great life, so I'm not complaining, but it is weird that thinks that seem so "obvious" can actually be the same things someone else is absolutely oblivious to.

Here's something obvious that your probably don't know.  The highest paying jobs don't require highschool or college degrees.   They are nice but not required.  In fact it is a middle class mind set.  Gates and whatshisface from Facebook don't have college degrees.  Edison -- Nope -- Ben Franklin like 2 years of grade school,  Rockefeller - nope,  Carnegie -- nope. 

The highest paying jobs are sales jobs.  I know 2 people who are salespeople.  One sells insurance,  one security systems.  They will average over 250K this year basically driving around and talking to people.  They don't teach you that I college.   Neither one finished college.  One is my son.

Sure you will probably find a better paying job with a college degree but I bet you won't make 250K per year your first year out. 

[Worsted Skeins]

First I want to cheer those of you who rose above your circumstances.  Your resilience and grit are to be admired.

I grew up in a frugal family.  We were far from poor but I did not know that until much later in life.  Neither of my parents were into material things which to be honest gave me my Mustachian values. 

That said, I had a difficult time when I served as liaison between a boy and his mom and a church group that was offering support to the boy.  The local elementary school had an annual trip to DC for 5th graders.  There was a women's group in the church that agreed to sponsor the boy for the trip, not only paying his fees but also buying him some new clothes and a suitcase for it.  There was a men's group that planned on buying him a bicycle for Xmas. In between came a birthday.  The mom called me with a list of what her son wanted:  a video game controller and games.  I was taken aback since we would not spend this kind of money for my own son!  Further, I had already tapped into resources for the trip and Christmas. 

I always wondered if the boy was disappointed or his mother when the boy's birthday rolled around.  Several of us made modest donations and bought the young man some outdoor game equipment and a couple of books, the kinds of things that our own middle class kids received for their birthdays.  I always wondered if there was some sort of media generated idea that children regularly received the latest and greatest on an annual basis, something that certainly never happened in our circles. It certainly fueled the woman's expectations of what her lad should receive.

[Zikoris]

Holy Cow, that second link is crazy.  Their rules for "poverty" are especially obscene and ridiculous

Did you read the last page of that link? Even more crazy! "Could you cope with a spouse/partner who came
from generational poverty (or had that mindset)? It would bother me if my spouse or partner:...." Here are some of the highlights:

- Left household bills unpaid in order to give money to a relative.
- Loaned the car to a relative who doesn’t have insurance and cannot be insured
- Bought designer clothing or shoes for our children, but didn’t pay an urgent household bill.
- Quit jobs without having another one because he/she didn’t like the boss.

[bdoubleu]

I'm not poor but went 7 years without cable.

Why does that line seem so funny?

But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

[Zamboni]

Gates and whatshisface from Facebook don't have college degrees.

No, but both attended Harvard and met people there who then helped them launch their companies.  Whatshisface's company initially was founded on the idea of creating an exclusive inner online circle for college students; pretty sure he wouldn't have come up with that if he never attended at all.  Their ideas and luck of having exactly the right idea/skill set at the right time in the right place is why they are so rich.

It would bother me if my spouse or partner:...." Here are some of the highlights:

- Left household bills unpaid in order to give money to a relative.
- Loaned the car to a relative who doesn’t have insurance and cannot be insured
- Bought designer clothing or shoes for our children, but didn’t pay an urgent household bill.
- Quit jobs without having another one because he/she didn’t like the boss.

Okay, growing up in my poor neighborhood, I watched people do exactly this shit all of the time.  I agree that not all poor people would do this dumb shit (for example, my parents didn't), but that doesn't mean that it's not common enough to be worth noting. 

As an adult I've also worked jobs at bottom the bottom and middle of the pay spectrum . . . never at the top, sadly for me.  Anyway, in 3 months working at a small pizza delivery place two people got pissed and stormed out/quit that day and two people got fired for cause (stealing cash in one case, clocking in and then running personal errands in the other, which I suppose amounts to stealing as well.)  Why are poor people more likely to quit for minor reasons?  Because they earn so little that they can probably go right across the street and get another job at a similar high turnover place.  One of the fired guys did exactly that.  MIddle of the pay spectrum people are more likely to have to look hard for similar work.

[MoneyCat]

I just read Linda Tirado's book "Hand to Mouth: Living in Bootstrap America" which is about the mindset of the poor from the perspective of someone who slipped from a lower-middle class life into the underclass through a mix of personal mistakes and the actions of others and I think it would probably help a lot of people on this thread if you read it too.  It uses some coarse language, but it does a beautiful job of explaining how most (obviously not all, because nothing is 100%) poor people think and live their lives.  I really think this book will open the eyes of some arrogant people who were born on third base and think they hit a triple.  There is an awful lot of Mustachianism in this book which Tirado lived by absolute necessity, such as saving money on diapers for her children by using old cut-up t-shirts she bought in bulk at the thrift store.

It might take a while for this book to reach libraries because it was only released on Oct. 2nd of this year.  I preordered a copy with a Barnes & Noble gift card that someone gifted me last Christmas.  It retails for about $13.

[Albert]

Why are poor people more likely to quit for minor reasons?  Because they earn so little that they can probably go right across the street and get another job at a similar high turnover place.  One of the fired guys did exactly that.  MIddle of the pay spectrum people are more likely to have to look hard for similar work.

I hadn't thought about it, but it sounds correct. Quiting without a good reason and without another job (or retirement) set up would be a major minus on my CV.