Frivolous careers

[Skyhigh]

To me the path to financial freedoms begins with an occupation that is able to produce a middle class income. In my current profession I provide rental housing to mostly college students. I have been able to witness the life trajectories of those who choose frivolous careers over practical ones and have noticed a pattern. Students who graduate with exercise science or horse race track management are doomed to return to get something realistic such as engineering or accounting.

In my case I was a professional pilot. In my 20's and early 30's I was earning less than one thousand dollars a month as a regional airline pilot and later thirty five thousand per year flying a Boeing 757 before I was laid off. The debate about college is if education beyond high school should be used to enhance our appreciation of life and follow personal interests or  be pragmatic and choose a discipline based upon income potential?

I think we all feel the same in that an education is an investment, perhaps the biggest in ones life. Choose a profession based upon its potential return in dollars and hopefully you will be more able to pursue your passion later in life.

Skyhigh

[thecornercat]

I graduated with a Humanities degree, and I am now doing a graduate degree in Humanities, and I have never had a very high income. I don't know if I would change anything--I enjoyed what I studied, and I am so happy I went back to school for my "passion"--but I do sometimes think how great it would have been if I had done a "practical" degree, followed the mustachian strategies here to save up the money for early retirement, and freed myself to live the life I want to be living without worrying about making money. Except then I wouldn't have lived the life I lived (and loved) for the past 8 years...

[netskyblue]

thirty five thousand per year flying a Boeing 757

Ok, I'm now officially afraid to fly.  That's all pilots make?!

[Gerard]

Choose a profession based upon its potential return in dollars and hopefully you will be more able to pursue your passion later in life.

Or pursue your passion when you're young and energetic (using mustachian-like principles to live for cheap and not have to compromise) and return to school later. Worked for me.

[deborah]

When I was a child a pilot was paid as much as lawyers and doctors - I thought that was still the case. Which brings up point 1. What pays well when you go to college may not be what pays well later on. With the computer revolution, many careers are lasting very few years, and over the next twenty years this total restructure of the employment market is going to continue. So why not pursue your passion - things people are passionate about pay them more than things they are not passionate about (point 2).

Thirdly, "sexy" or frivolous careers don't pay well - chefs, fashion designers, acting... However, if you are exceptional, they may. But every person thinks they are one of the exceptional people, so how can you talk anyone out of these courses?

Fourthly, a sexy or frivolous career may suit some aims. For instance, my brother is a chef (possibly one of the best in the world, but he's not on television, and he doesn't own a restaurant, so he isn't paid well). However, he has always wanted to travel the world and meet famous people. He has worked in at least 40 different countries, at some of the most exotic places on earth, and cooked for heads of state and people who own the top companies in the world as well as other rich and famous, so he has got what he wanted from his career. Since he often cooks one on one dinners, he talks to some of these people for several hours over several days - a thing many would be quite envious of. For him, as well as for some people on this forum, his lifestyle, although not financial freedom, might be preferable to FI because his lifestyle is meeting all of their actual wants.

[Skyhigh]

The airline care prospects for airline pilot have diminished greatly since deregulation in the late 1970's. Had I known how badly the profession would decline I never would have wasted my education and best years. Young pilots today have the Internet and no excuse yet many are graduating 150k in debt for a career that has zero chance of recovering the investment it tok to get there. I see plenty of other university disciplines that are similar.

Sky high

[JeffC]

Well, I got a bachelor's and a master's in ceramic art, which my parents thought was a bad idea and some of my friends who were business majors really scoffed at. Now I'm doing exactly what I want with my life, making and selling art, working as a professor at a major University, and traveling the country and occasionally internationally to speak about my work to large crowds.  I have to say, the FI I am working towards will not come with an instantaneous quitting of a job I hate.  My life currently involves ZERO work dread.  I only concern myself with doing what I am passionate about. I really cannot envision a life where I am not making art and teaching young artists who go out and make successful careers for themselves doing something they actually like to do and are passionate about. 

I would say if you have absolutely no passion for anything at all in life, you should pick a major based on pay.  If there is anything at all in the world you love doing and are passionate about, you would really be screwing yourself over by denying yourself your rightful path.  The power of frugality is that it allows you to afford to do what you want with your life by alleviating the stress of desiring and acquiring useless shit.  Why do something you aren't passionate about, potentially for decades, just to hopefully get through it before you are a burnt out, bitter husk of a human being?  Why not do exactly what you want or at least try?  Someone with an art degree can absolutely sell insurance or become a loan officer or some other lame decent paying thing if the art thing doesn't work out, but no salary is worth living a lifetime of regret for not allowing yourself to follow your passion, no matter how early you retire. 

[Janie]

I didn't regard higher education as vocational training. I have a humanities degree; Husband's degrees are social science. We're doing just fine financially.

[Joshin]

THe hubs and I both got frivolous degrees -- he in art and myself Journalism. I never had any urge to be a journalist, but it felt slightly more "grown-up and career-oriented" to me at the time than just a plain English degree. We lucked out in that we both have an entrepreneurial spirit, so we have carved out quite the nice life for ourselves by patching together a decent freelance income. We get to work from home, mostly set our own hours, and we have enjoyed many of the same live quality benefits that an early retiree with a side hustle does since our late 20s. The only thing I would change is that I would get my degree in horticulture, because that is the writing niche I settled into and the degree would have opened a few doors and allowed me to set a hire wage for myself early on. Hubs wouldn't change anything, because he uses his digital art education daily. He had no student loans, and mine were few because I mainly worked and paid as I went, so we never had those bogging us down.

Our 14 year old starts college in 2 years (advanced track homeschooler). Right now he has three years in scholarships, so we aren't too concerned over his college costs, but we want him to get the most of his education and eventual degree. He wants a design career, but we've advised him to narrow down the fields within design to find the one most likely to have available jobs with a decent wage. For now he's leaning toward landscape or architectural design because those are two fields in demand in our region. He's really interested in "green" landscape design in urban areas, which is a growing field. Younger has a few years yet before he has to worry about college choices, but he has waffled between engineer and astrophysicist since he could pronounce the words, so he likely won't have the lib arts conundrum.

I guess we chose the philosophy of "do what you love, but look at all angles of it so you find the most career-capable niche within that love."

[Skyhigh]

Financial independence.

Ever since I was young I have held that goal. I was good at flying and was told that I could earn a good income doing it. I did not earn hardly anything after 20years of effort. However what I did receive was decades of frugal living experience and life on the financial edge develops a pragmatic earnestness to always find a way. After I was laid off and with few options was able to start over in real estate where those skills served me well.

I have children and am advising they purse a profession based upon financial return and public need over passion. Mike Rowe from the show "Dirty Jobs" says not to follow ones passion but rather to have your passion follow you. In my case I wasted a small fortune on my training and education because I believed that it would help me to achieve my passion of financial imdependence. Had I choosen accounting I would have made something of myself sooner.

Skyhigh

[Noodle]

On the one hand, I see the issue with students who pile up a ton of debt for a career path with limited opportunities or salaries..but on the other hand, I have one of those frivolous degrees and have been happily employed in my field for many years and am debt free. So I think occasionally about what advice I might give to a student in my field...

I think I would advise them first to think about why they want to go to college. If it's to get a job, then pick the field with the best combination of job prospects and salaries that reasonably suits your talents. (Ie, if you hate numbers, skip accounting). If it's to pursue a passion, or become generally educated, then just be smart about it. (If it's just because everyone else is going, then for the love of God, get a job or a volunteer gig but do not waste somebody's money on school). Figure out a way to do school where you aren't piling up a ton of debt. Know that when you get out, you're going to have to hustle, network, and live MMM-style without the final result of early-retirement. But as we know, less stuff does not mean less happiness! If you're not OK with that, then go back to plan A with the lucrative career.

[ChrisLansing]

Well, I got a bachelor's and a master's in ceramic art, which my parents thought was a bad idea and some of my friends who were business majors really scoffed at. Now I'm doing exactly what I want with my life, making and selling art, working as a professor at a major University, ..

So your real income comes from being a professor, that's fine.   But how many of your classmates (you know, the people who also got masters degrees in ceramic art) are profs?     How many of them make a living selling ceramic art?     How many of them sell used cars?    How many of them work at Walmart?   

[Terrestrial]

Two general comments on this subject:

1-What many of us regard at 'frivolous' careers are not frivolous to those who do them, nor are they to us when you think about it.  How many really enjoy an occasional great meal at a decent restaurant, something really creative that a 'frivolous' chef had to think of and execute.  How many of us have beautiful photography or paintings or ceramic sculpture decorating our houses that a 'frivolous' artist had to create.  Almost every one of those chefs/artists/etc aren't famous, and they probably don't make alot of money, but not everybody values making a ton of money.   My wife got an art degree, and doubled it with an education degree so she can teach art...she loves her job but has never made alot of money doing it.  I make 3x her salary and while I don't 'dislike' my job I wouldn't say it's a passion for me.  I would wager from my time on this board that there are alot of higher earners doing 'non-frivilous' careers (me included) but whose largest dream every day is to stop doing them (somewhat the whole point of this board), so I'm not going to sit here and judge those who take a different path.  My dad could have retired 10 years ago financially but doesn't because he just LIKES his job...how many of us with these practical high-paying jobs can stay the same.  I really can't honestly say what's better...spending 20 years making alot but spending your life counting down the days until you dont have to come in anymore, or spending 40 years making alot less but enjoying the process.

2-While I take 'frivolous' to be synonymous with 'low-paying' in this thread, I would also argue that that doesn't really matter either.  Pure amount of money someone makes matters alot less than what they are spending....is it a bit harder on 30k a year than 200k, maybe, but the same basic theory still holds...if both people save half their income both of those people will FIRE about the same time, just at very different lifestyle levels.  I understand it's not that cut and dry, fixed things like healthcare eat up a 30k income alot faster....but the overall point is, there's not a problem with being low-wage in order to do a job you like, it's only a problem if you don't care to live at the lifestyle level that that choice dictates.  Does 30k guy have to live in an apartment instead of buying a house, maybe not in the very best part of town, not really travel alot, perhaps...but that's the choice he made and it's not a problem so long as he understands it.  Perhaps he's glad to do it because he gets to go create art/music/etc every day and loves it.

[senecando]

I never quite get the threads about how one really ought to try to make a lot of money from the get-go, on a forum about not letting your job run your life.

[Skyhigh]

Why career discussion when the aim is to not work?

It seems to me that they way to start on the path to financial freedom begins with a profession that has the ability to provide surplus income in order to gain the financial momentum required to accomplish independence at a young age. I have not encountered it yet but my guess is that MMM and his wife must have been able to accumulate large savings at such a young age due to well paying careers. In addition I believe that an important component to financial security is to hold the ability to return to work if necessary and for more than minimum wage.

A solid career is the engine that runs the financial machine. Banks love to see it on an application to purchase investment properties. The job may stink but if ones intentions are to become financially independent then I believe a well paying career should be made a priority. However to start life so deep in the hole due to the adoption of a fun and satisfying but ill preforming career is a luxury that financial independence can hardly afford in my humble opinion. In that case one is hoping for luck to provide and that is not a good position to be in. Save the fun career as a reward for the sacrifice it takes to become independent.

I wish I could have known how badly my chosen profession was going to decline. Looking upon the situation with more experienced eyes however it seems obvious that professions that carry status, are perceived as being fun, or deeply satisfying will be hotly contested for but not really provide much since most of the compensation comes in the form of intrinsic value. In contrast I do not believe that children dream of growing up to be accountants or construction managers. Those careers are not fun or interesting in college but provide a good wage once out.

Skyhigh

[Ricky]

I never quite get the threads about how one really ought to try to make a lot of money from the get-go, on a forum about not letting your job run your life.

Because ultimately, any job entails doing things you'd rather not be doing instead of doing whatever the hell you want. If you have the option (and most do) of getting paid $30k or $100k, which one would you choose? Don't let yourself inflate your lifestyle and suddenly you have tons of surplus income, so you end up reading about what to do with it online.

The blog itself is definitely geared towards high income people. Anyone can benefit from it, but until you have a huge pile of discretionary income can you really start moving mountains with it. MMM couldn't of retired in 8-9 years without having high paying jobs.

[Bob W]

Some of the highest paying jobs in the world are in sales.  Just try majoring in sales in college.

It is so funny that our schools are so disconnected from the jobs that are out there.   Is there even a Civil Servant major?   My University didn't even offer a degree in Retail Banking,  Real Estate Sales or Stock Brokering. 
But lo and behold that is where many graduates ended up.

[Fodder]

I have a French literature degree.

I now work in government communications/PR/media relations.  Some might consider my degree frivolous, but it's an interesting job, with very generous pay and benefits.  So I don't consider it to have been a frivolous endeavour.  I do a job I enjoy, meet interesting people, learn all kinds of new things, get paid very well, and most days I feel like what I'm doing could make a positive difference in someone's life.

People often forget about the very practical career possibilities for people with Arts/Humanities degrees.  Corporate communications (or government comms, PR, etc.) can be really interesting, and even in the private sector, the pay isn't terrible (not awesome, but not miserable either).  I work with policy analysts who have degrees in philosophy and also really enjoy their jobs and get paid well.  It's not all doom and gloom.

[riverffashion]

I went to vocational school (beauty school) which was $13,000, however I got grants so it was free:) I make great money doing hair and SKINCARE in a wealthy area, the bay area. in this business you get out what you put into it.

[CarFIRE]

Fodder, do you mind disclosing how much you think is "paid very well" for perspective?

I have a French literature degree.

I now work in government communications/PR/media relations.  Some might consider my degree frivolous, but it's an interesting job, with very generous pay and benefits.  So I don't consider it to have been a frivolous endeavour.  I do a job I enjoy, meet interesting people, learn all kinds of new things, get paid very well, and most days I feel like what I'm doing could make a positive difference in someone's life.

People often forget about the very practical career possibilities for people with Arts/Humanities degrees.  Corporate communications (or government comms, PR, etc.) can be really interesting, and even in the private sector, the pay isn't terrible (not awesome, but not miserable either).  I work with policy analysts who have degrees in philosophy and also really enjoy their jobs and get paid well.  It's not all doom and gloom.

[alaskacobalt]

As someone that makes six figures a year and has a masters degree, I feel that education is the single biggest waste of money.  By the time you factor in the costs of an education, the money lost by not working (for many students anyway), and the debts accrued on credit cards while trying to survive day to tday...  I feel like most people never come out ahead, especially since many end up with careers paying less than $50k a year. 

My job I have now requires absolutely no degree and I could walk into it with a GED, but still pays six figures.  I work in sales, which most people simply aren't suited for, but I feel that the same type of person that is successful in college has the self discipline and desire needed to be successful in life.  So these same people could simply start a business or work their way up the ladder and end up making just as much as they would have with a degree. 

Obviously some career fields pay extremely well and a degree is needed, but for the average person... don't know if college is the right answer unless you are going into a medical / legal / or truly specialized high demand field. 

[Fodder]

Fodder, do you mind disclosing how much you think is "paid very well" for perspective?

I have a French literature degree.

I now work in government communications/PR/media relations.  Some might consider my degree frivolous, but it's an interesting job, with very generous pay and benefits.  So I don't consider it to have been a frivolous endeavour.  I do a job I enjoy, meet interesting people, learn all kinds of new things, get paid very well, and most days I feel like what I'm doing could make a positive difference in someone's life.

People often forget about the very practical career possibilities for people with Arts/Humanities degrees.  Corporate communications (or government comms, PR, etc.) can be really interesting, and even in the private sector, the pay isn't terrible (not awesome, but not miserable either).  I work with policy analysts who have degrees in philosophy and also really enjoy their jobs and get paid well.  It's not all doom and gloom.

I'm sure these things are all relative.....but here are the rates of pay for communications people in the Government of Canada (look at the last line for each level).

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/coll_agre/pa/pa08-eng.asp#toc288725029

Basically, a junior communications officer (i.e., someone right out of school or with 1-2 years of experience) will start at about 54k (that is the IS-2 level; there are very, very few IS-1 positions).  Also, this position (for now, at least) would have a defined benefit pension of 70% of your best five years of salary, as well as sick leave and vacation.

The salary range will depend on the position, but an intermediate level person (i.e., an IS-4) would make 76k-82k, and a top level person (with a staff to manage and a fair amount of responsibility - an IS-6) would be in the 89k-102k range.

If a person desired to continue up the career path, they could become an executive (different job category, but basically supervising all of the other communications people), and those salaries would range from 105k to 200k plus bonuses, for someone at the very top (obviously there aren't very many of those positions - http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/ratesofpay/rapaceexunem02-eng.asp#Toc476385558 ).

I know people have differing definitions of generous, but I think these salaries are very good, especially when the benefits package is considered.

[Skyhigh]

As someone that makes six figures a year and has a masters degree, I feel that education is the single biggest waste of money.  By the time you factor in the costs of an education, the money lost by not working (for many students anyway), and the debts accrued on credit cards while trying to survive day to tday...  I feel like most people never come out ahead, especially since many end up with careers paying less than $50k a year. 

My job I have now requires absolutely no degree and I could walk into it with a GED, but still pays six figures.  I work in sales, which most people simply aren't suited for, but I feel that the same type of person that is successful in college has the self discipline and desire needed to be successful in life.  So these same people could simply start a business or work their way up the ladder and end up making just as much as they would have with a degree. 

Obviously some career fields pay extremely well and a degree is needed, but for the average person... don't know if college is the right answer unless you are going into a medical / legal / or truly specialized high demand field.

I agree however the statistics still suggest that people who go to college will earn more over a lifetime. What I wonder is if the kind of people who are self disciplined enough to get through a four year degree are also more financially successful because of their education or because they are self disciplined.

Skyhigh

[myteafix]

For everything in life, there needs to be balance. Not everyone needs to go into engineering or accounting. The arts are important. etc. etc.

For instance, a lot of people have scoffed at the idea of an "English degree," but it is really useful for a variety of jobs - not just teaching or becoming a best-selling author.

[rocketpj]

I don't think it is the 'frivolous' careers that are the issue.  It is our society's absurd overemphasis on bogus credentialism that forces many people who don't know what they want (and being young, who can blame them) to make choices and go into debt before they are ready for either.

All the messaging we give these kids is that they need a degree to succeed, and yet there are a great many 6 figure jobs in the trades and other professions that have nothing to do with college educations.  So they go to college and don't know what to do, so they take whatever seems interesting and hope for the best.

Some of them come back to college later when they are more focused.  Others move on and do something else.  But let's not get all smug about 'frivolous' degrees or careers.  I won't judge you if you don't judge me, and we all make mistakes and wrong choices sometimes.

[Sid Hoffman]

I would say it depends on how radical we want to get about turning society into an economic engine.  Here's one theory:

Schooling should pay for itself because you make workers more productive and better equipped to use their skills to a great extent from an early age, like 22-28 or so, such that they manage to gain a ton of skill in just 4-10 years of schooling that could otherwise take decades of on the job training here and there for some jobs, and is simply not possible in most cases.  Nobody becomes an electrical engineer without schooling, for example.

Based on that, let the regents boards of colleges get together and group all majors by what career groups they are likely to apply to.  The US Government already collects income information for jobs because they ask you what your job is when you file your taxes.  So they know full well how much every job pays.

The colleges then create 3 groups:

*Majors that align with jobs with median pay at least 5X the poverty line
*Majors that align with jobs with median pay at least 3X the poverty line
*All other majors

For reference, poverty lines are calculated on a state by state basis with the average in the US around $11,500 although for CA & HI they are around $14k/year.  Each college gets to group based on the poverty line as well as pay specific for that state.  You could let each state decide if they want to use the federal average or a state-specific one depending on which makes more sense for that state.

For the first group of majors, that should be jobs with median pay at least $57,500/year for an individual.  They should qualify for a tuition credit equal to the poverty line per year of full-time college.  So for a 5-year bachelors program, you'd get $57,500 of "free" tuition from the federal government.  This would generally be a good deal since they should collect a boatload of income tax money from people getting such highly paid jobs.

For the second group of majors, that would be jobs with median pay at least $34,500/year for an individual.  They should qualify for a tuition credit equal to half the poverty line.  This is kind of a freebie, since this is barely even higher than median individual pay in the US to begin with, but hey, college is a big deal and I think we should be encouraging more people to go.  $5750/year of tuition credit from the feds would be a huge deal for most people.

For the last group of majors, if they cannot prove that those majors align with real jobs and that there are sufficient job openings in the marketplace then they get zero credit from the federal government.  Just because there's a few people that get jobs in the arts doesn't mean its a reliable job market to support hundreds of thousands of students getting arts degrees.  Those majors would get $0 in federal support on the basis that they cannot be proven to have a reliable ROI.  People who truly love the arts will still get those degrees, but everyone else will be persuaded to get a degree from one of the other two categories of majors where they are more likely to get a good paying job.

You could set the multiple of poverty line at whatever makes sense, but the bottom line is that majors which directly lead to high paying jobs should get a bunch of tuition reimbursement.  This is easy to justify because they can prove with numbers that the government will easily make up for it in tax revenue.  You're not forcing anyone to go to college or to pick one major over another, but you encourage people to go to college and pick majors that lead to solid careers paying at least 3-5x the poverty line.

[alaskacobalt]

I agree however the statistics still suggest that people who go to college will earn more over a lifetime. What I wonder is if the kind of people who are self disciplined enough to get through a four year degree are also more financially successful because of their education or because they are self disciplined.

Skyhigh

This is my argument as well.  Someone that goes to college is probably more likely to earn more than their peers even if they did not go to college.  A degree is needed for some high income fields, there are other ways to get to a high income level without it and by cutting $40k-$100k in costs in the process....  I just don't see much of a benefit for the mass majority of people.  Anyone that has a degree earning less than $50k a year, I wonder if they are even coming out ahead. 

[No Name Guy]

I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain.

John Adams

Seeing as we (those of us in the first world and much of the 2nd) have liberty, I'll assume for the comment that MOST of us need not study politics and war to secure our liberty and go on to what John Adams said his son's must study in relation to their children.

Until you have the wealth in hand, painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain are in fact luxuries.  If you borrow money (student loans) to study these things, you're a fool same as the person borrowing money for a new, 100k hand bag or sports / muscle car...only worse, as your debt isn't dischargeable in bankruptcy (in the US at least).  A luxury item is a luxury item, be that a literature degree or yet another remodel of the kitchen ripping out last year's granite counter and replacing it with this years quartz.

Note how Adams didn't say study the arts, then commerce, agriculture and the rest.  The arts follow acquiring wealth.

Also note the ultimate position that Adams wanted for his family - he WANTED them to be able to study the arts....eventually.  But only after becoming wealthy.  That the person up thread was able to make it work with ceramics - hey great for you.  You're the one in a thousand that actually manages to get to be able to make bank with your luxury.  That said, that's no more of a solid plan than the poor kid spending all his time on baseball, football or hoop with dreams of MLB, NFL or NBA as their career path....and about equally likely. 

If mom and dad can finance your luxury degree out of pocket - great.  Your parents and grandparents have achieved Adam's dream of their children / grandchildren being able to study "painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain."  If you have to borrow one penny or work as you go for your education....sorry, you're not ready for that...yet.  Get on with your studies of "mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture" so that your children have the chance you didn't.....or you can come back to it after hitting FI.

[beltim]

For the last group of majors, if they cannot prove that those majors align with real jobs and that there are sufficient job openings in the marketplace then they get zero credit from the federal government.  Just because there's a few people that get jobs in the arts doesn't mean its a reliable job market to support hundreds of thousands of students getting arts degrees.  Those majors would get $0 in federal support on the basis that they cannot be proven to have a reliable ROI.  People who truly love the arts will still get those degrees, but everyone else will be persuaded to get a degree from one of the other two categories of majors where they are more likely to get a good paying job.

I don't think there are any majors like this, with median incomes below 3x the poverty line.  The lowest-paying college major I could find was "Child and Family Studies" at median income of $37,200.  The second lowest was "Elementary Education" at $45,300.

There's this trope on this site about people with frivolous majors not making any money, but the fact is that even these "frivolous majors" still result in higher median incomes than people who don't go to college at all: http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/?level=nation&mode=data&state=0&submeasure=368

[MoneyCat]

I've seen a lot of these sorts of threads pop up on this forum lately and all I can say is that regret is the most useless emotion there is.  It's not constructive.  It weighs you down instead of lifting you up.  I made some poor decisions on choosing a profession like some others on here, but it is what it is and all I can do is my best in the situation.  You can't change the past and you have to move forward.

[Sid Hoffman]

I've seen a lot of these sorts of threads pop up on this forum lately and all I can say is that regret is the most useless emotion there is.  It's not constructive.  It weighs you down instead of lifting you up.  I made some poor decisions on choosing a profession like some others on here, but it is what it is and all I can do is my best in the situation.  You can't change the past and you have to move forward.

That's fine.  However for those of us who are parents, we DO have the ability to do things differently, if only vicariously.  We should still study our own personal history so that we can pass along the lessons we learned to our progeny, that they may benefit from the knowledge of our mistakes and possibly avoid making those mistakes entirely.  It's not "regret" from the parents' standpoint so much as a desire to see our kids grow up with more knowledge than we ourselves had, just as I have benefited from my parents instilling all their knowledge in me as I grew up.

[Helvegen]

I've never been career driven. I have a liberal arts degree. I don't get paid a lot, but what I do get is a complete work-life separation. I am never expected to work late, take my work home, etc. My time is my time. I see a lot of professionals where that is just not the case. High stress, not that great paying once you figure the real hourly wage for all the hours they are putting in as a salaried employee. Money is good, but it isn't everything to me. I may not have a super cool dream job, but it is good honest, low stress work and provides me with satisfaction.

[beltim]

For the last group of majors, if they cannot prove that those majors align with real jobs and that there are sufficient job openings in the marketplace then they get zero credit from the federal government.  Just because there's a few people that get jobs in the arts doesn't mean its a reliable job market to support hundreds of thousands of students getting arts degrees.  Those majors would get $0 in federal support on the basis that they cannot be proven to have a reliable ROI.  People who truly love the arts will still get those degrees, but everyone else will be persuaded to get a degree from one of the other two categories of majors where they are more likely to get a good paying job.

I don't think there are any majors like this, with median incomes below 3x the poverty line.  The lowest-paying college major I could find was "Child and Family Studies" at median income of $37,200.  The second lowest was "Elementary Education" at $45,300.

 

Yeah but statistics lie often. You may see a statistic that says the average pay for someone who majored in theatre arts is somewhat middle income or maybe even high if it is averaged in with the extremely high paid actors, writers, producers and directors who make millions.  But the reality may be that the bulk of those who have that major will not become high paid actors, director, writer, or producers and  many are either working in the field at the lowest pay scale or in a totally different job (the stereotype server job) because they couldn't get into the field at all.  Of course that doesn't mean that they are unemployable because of their major choice, and by switching career paths they may even be very financially successful.

That's why I used and cited median incomes.

[The_path_less_taken]

I've never been career driven. I have a liberal arts degree. I don't get paid a lot, but what I do get is a complete work-life separation. I am never expected to work late, take my work home, etc. My time is my time. I see a lot of professionals where that is just not the case. High stress, not that great paying once you figure the real hourly wage for all the hours they are putting in as a salaried employee. Money is good, but it isn't everything to me. I may not have a super cool dream job, but it is good honest, low stress work and provides me with satisfaction.

Ditto. I've taken many, many jobs in my misspent youth that were frivolous as hell...and enjoyed them all the more.

Crap: when I lived in San Francisco I wrangled horses in Golden Gate Park. For (gasp) minimum wage! It rocked! I don't regret it at all.

Now that I'm (pretending) to be a grownup with a mortgage I need to make more money but still...

Always have thought that we should "retire" at 21 with something like 30k on loan...then ten years later when we've played like filthy fools, get a job and pay that back.

I believe some people call that college?

[clarkfan1979]

I don't think college should be vocational training. College should be a time to develop critical thinking and problem solving skills. Jobs and careers will change over time. Like most jobs you learn by doing. Some jobs cannot be learned on the fly (engineer, nurse, lawyer, doctor, teacher) so their is a path at University.

I have a lot of cousins that are union construction and make 60K - 80K/year. They make pretty good money but their behavior is more consistent with poor people because they lack the education to know what to do with the money.

My social circle includes people who are hard workers. To avoid cherry picking from my friends, I will pick those who were in my wedding.

Friend #1: BA in Economics, 100K/year Restaurant Manager, Age 35
Friend #2: PhD in Statistics, 75K/year, Prof, age 39
Friend #3: BA in Graphic Design, 130K/year, Marketing Firm, Age 35
Friend #4: BA in Computer Science, 120K/year, Data Management, Age 35
Friend #5: BA in Business, 40K/year, Entrepreneur Starting Own Business, Age 31

I would like to point out that friend #3 graduated from an art school and did freelance work for 35k/year after graduation. He made the least out of everyone directly out of school. However, he now makes the most, 12 years later. I make less than everyone at 50K/year with a PhD in Social Psychology. However, I am pretty sure my networth is highest. I am more of a big picture person and put more value on networth than salary. I think it would be pretty easy for me to get a corporate job at 100K a year. However, I love my current job and brings me value beyond the salary. I will never retire but want a stache so my wife can work part-time and we can travel more.

[expatartist]

Some perspectives from the fine arts if anyone who lands on this page is interested. Arguably, our degrees are the least practical of all:

This site spells it out best, and has been making waves. They are spot-on: http://bfamfaphd.com/

Related, on the academization of art: "Universities to Artists: Get a Doctorate?"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-grant/mfa-degrees_b_868903.html
"Job security is a relatively new concept in the ancient field of art, reflecting the increasing hold higher education has over the arts...baccalaureates and Master's degrees in fine art have become the union cards for artists since the second half of the 20th century, offering equal parts general education (on the undergraduate level) or critical theory (on the Master's side) and studio classes. Over the past 50-plus years, the Master's of Fine Arts, or MFA, has been described as a "terminal degree" -- that is, the end-point in an artist's formal education -- but some people are taking the view that this end-point comes too soon. A movement may be afoot to create doctoral programs in studio arts."

"Debating an MFA? The Lowdown on Art School Risks and Returns"
http://www.blouinartinfo.com/news/story/989814/debating-an-mfa-the-lowdown-on-art-school-risks-and-returns
"If you studied art as an undergraduate, you probably didn’t know that much about who your teachers were, but astute grad students tend to be more concerned about the people who mentor them...The majority of those who teach art are not stars, and many of them wield more power at school than in the world at large."

"What Can You Really Do With a Degree in the Arts?"
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/11/what-can-you-really-do-with-a-degree-in-the-arts/382300/?single_page=true
"a degree in the arts only very rarely leads to a career in the arts"

"Don't Go to Art School" https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/dont-go-to-art-school-138c5efd45e9
The author creates fantasy art, not contemporary art - fantasy does well outside contemporary art institutions and education, not so well within them. He recommends:
"The $10k Ultimate Art Education
$500 - Buy an annual subscription to The Gnomon Workshop and watch every single video they have.
$404.95 - Buy Glenn Vilppu’s Anatomy Lectures and watch all of them.
$190 - Buy all of these books and read them cover to cover.
$1040 ($20/week x 52 weeks) - Weekly figure drawing sessions. Look up nearby colleges and art groups and find a weekly session to attend.
$2500 - Sign up for a SmART School Mentorship when you feel ready to get one-on-one guidance to push your abilities.
$2400 - Sign up for four classes from CGMA. Get taught by professionals in the industry on exactly the skills you want to learn.
Free - Watch all of these keynotes http://www.jonathanfields.com/the-7-keynote-mba/
Free - Study other things for free. Suggested topics: business, history, philosophy, English, literature, marketing, and anything else you might be interested in http://academicearth.org/
$500 - Throughout the year, use at least this much money to visit museums in your area. And not just art museums. All museums.
Free - Create accountability. One of the great advantages to attending a school is the comradery [sic]. So use the internet to create your own. Go join a forum where you can give and receive critique on the work you’re developing. There are many different ones out there that can suit whatever flavor you prefer.
The rest - Materials. Buy yourself some good art materials to create with. Whether digital or traditional. Don’t skimp."

At the end of the day, you decide what to do with your degree(s), and how you feel about the time and $ you invested in them. My BFA in painting took me to the art I make and where I make it now, and has led to many places and projects along the way - I wouldn't change a thing.

[iwasjustwondering]

I have a French literature degree.

I now work in government communications/PR/media relations.  Some might consider my degree frivolous, but it's an interesting job, with very generous pay and benefits.  So I don't consider it to have been a frivolous endeavour.  I do a job I enjoy, meet interesting people, learn all kinds of new things, get paid very well, and most days I feel like what I'm doing could make a positive difference in someone's life.

People often forget about the very practical career possibilities for people with Arts/Humanities degrees.  Corporate communications (or government comms, PR, etc.) can be really interesting, and even in the private sector, the pay isn't terrible (not awesome, but not miserable either).  I work with policy analysts who have degrees in philosophy and also really enjoy their jobs and get paid well.  It's not all doom and gloom.

Yup.  I majored in English, and got a master's in Irish Literature.  I will make around $214,000 this year, mostly from my public relations job.  This work was also fantastic when I was a mother of young kids -- I worked as a freelance writer/PR consultant.  I had some lean years, but ended the run with a two-year contract for a retainer of $72K per year for 20 hours per week of work. 

[trishume]

I see a lot of people here talking about following your passion and I just thought I might provide an alternative viewpoint. It's far better to do something with the intent of being good at it than with finding something you already like.

Many (but certainly not all) people that tell others to follow their passion because that was what helped them are in fact confusing correlation with causality. These people enjoy their amazing jobs so much because they put in the effort to become really good at something. For more on the topic read this amazing book (or just the detailed review/summary): http://sivers.org/book/SoGood

On an unrelated note, I cringe hard when I see posts on this forum asking about finances where people with college degrees and huge student loans mention that their earnings are in the $30k/yr range. In all likelihood there was a high-paying major that they could have enjoyed just as much but which would have given them much higher earning power. First year Computer Science students with 8 months of classes can easily earn $40k/yr on an internship. I feel sorry for them but also feel glad that I chose to go into CS.

[Skyhigh]

I have a French literature degree.

I now work in government communications/PR/media relations.  Some might consider my degree frivolous, but it's an interesting job, with very generous pay and benefits.  So I don't consider it to have been a frivolous endeavour.  I do a job I enjoy, meet interesting people, learn all kinds of new things, get paid very well, and most days I feel like what I'm doing could make a positive difference in someone's life.

People often forget about the very practical career possibilities for people with Arts/Humanities degrees.  Corporate communications (or government comms, PR, etc.) can be really interesting, and even in the private sector, the pay isn't terrible (not awesome, but not miserable either).  I work with policy analysts who have degrees in philosophy and also really enjoy their jobs and get paid well.  It's not all doom and gloom.

Yup.  I majored in English, and got a master's in Irish Literature.  I will make around $214,000 this year, mostly from my public relations job.  This work was also fantastic when I was a mother of young kids -- I worked as a freelance writer/PR consultant.  I had some lean years, but ended the run with a two-year contract for a retainer of $72K per year for 20 hours per week of work.

I won $50 bucks on a one dollar lottery ticket once. Luck, hard work, and circumstance has a role in all our lives however it seems to me that most English majors can not expect a similar outcome.

Skyhigh

[Skyhigh]

The point:

I think the point is that when one suffers much for a career that can not even get out of its own financial way not only does it stink but is disastrous to financial independence as well. To knowingly put ones self into that position is financial suicide. Luck is always a factor in every plan but should not be majorly relied upon.

Skyhigh

[Beric01]

I think it's important to get some perspective here. If your passion will make you a starving artist, you'll be spending most of your time you would be doing art scrounging for food and rent. You'd probably be better off working a regular job and doing your art in your free time.

Again using the example of the starving artist, if you want to make art the only thing you do, then why not get an engineering degree (or the like with high income - I chose business), and reach FI in 10 years or less, whereby you can do only art for the rest of your life?

You can struggle to support yourself with art, or you can take control of your life through FI and make it into something you do full time. And that's the biggest deal here: you won't have to make money off of what you enjoy. I think doing what you love is a huge misnomer. Do what you love, but why do you need to make money off of it? I've heard of too many people "doing what they loved" such that they no longer enjoyed it due to needing to profit off of it (often what you are most proud of is not the work that sells).

I have no problem with people wanting to do art, and think it's an admirable profession. But with the current economic climate, it's financial suicide to graduate with an arts degree (or the like).

[Daisy]

Some perspectives from the fine arts if anyone who lands on this page is interested. Arguably, our degrees are the least practical of all:

This site spells it out best, and has been making waves. They are spot-on: http://bfamfaphd.com/

Related, on the academization of art: "Universities to Artists: Get a Doctorate?"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-grant/mfa-degrees_b_868903.html
"Job security is a relatively new concept in the ancient field of art, reflecting the increasing hold higher education has over the arts...baccalaureates and Master's degrees in fine art have become the union cards for artists since the second half of the 20th century, offering equal parts general education (on the undergraduate level) or critical theory (on the Master's side) and studio classes. Over the past 50-plus years, the Master's of Fine Arts, or MFA, has been described as a "terminal degree" -- that is, the end-point in an artist's formal education -- but some people are taking the view that this end-point comes too soon. A movement may be afoot to create doctoral programs in studio arts."

"Debating an MFA? The Lowdown on Art School Risks and Returns"
http://www.blouinartinfo.com/news/story/989814/debating-an-mfa-the-lowdown-on-art-school-risks-and-returns
"If you studied art as an undergraduate, you probably didn’t know that much about who your teachers were, but astute grad students tend to be more concerned about the people who mentor them...The majority of those who teach art are not stars, and many of them wield more power at school than in the world at large."

"What Can You Really Do With a Degree in the Arts?"
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/11/what-can-you-really-do-with-a-degree-in-the-arts/382300/?single_page=true
"a degree in the arts only very rarely leads to a career in the arts"

"Don't Go to Art School" https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/dont-go-to-art-school-138c5efd45e9
The author creates fantasy art, not contemporary art - fantasy does well outside contemporary art institutions and education, not so well within them. He recommends:
"The $10k Ultimate Art Education
$500 - Buy an annual subscription to The Gnomon Workshop and watch every single video they have.
$404.95 - Buy Glenn Vilppu’s Anatomy Lectures and watch all of them.
$190 - Buy all of these books and read them cover to cover.
$1040 ($20/week x 52 weeks) - Weekly figure drawing sessions. Look up nearby colleges and art groups and find a weekly session to attend.
$2500 - Sign up for a SmART School Mentorship when you feel ready to get one-on-one guidance to push your abilities.
$2400 - Sign up for four classes from CGMA. Get taught by professionals in the industry on exactly the skills you want to learn.
Free - Watch all of these keynotes http://www.jonathanfields.com/the-7-keynote-mba/
Free - Study other things for free. Suggested topics: business, history, philosophy, English, literature, marketing, and anything else you might be interested in http://academicearth.org/
$500 - Throughout the year, use at least this much money to visit museums in your area. And not just art museums. All museums.
Free - Create accountability. One of the great advantages to attending a school is the comradery [sic]. So use the internet to create your own. Go join a forum where you can give and receive critique on the work you’re developing. There are many different ones out there that can suit whatever flavor you prefer.
The rest - Materials. Buy yourself some good art materials to create with. Whether digital or traditional. Don’t skimp."

At the end of the day, you decide what to do with your degree(s), and how you feel about the time and $ you invested in them. My BFA in painting took me to the art I make and where I make it now, and has led to many places and projects along the way - I wouldn't change a thing.

Wow! What a great list of resources. Thanks so much!

I am a soon-to-be-FIREing software engineer that missed my calling in the arts. I was soooo close to studying architecture but went into engineering instead...and not even civil engineering which is most similar to architecture...

I haven't really developed my artistic skills too much. I was unemployed for 5 months once and started taking sketching classes and loved it. Then I got re-employed and got busy selling a house and stuff and now think I should take more art classes.

My current obsession is doing some whiteboard art at work. I'm getting known as the whiteboard-art-girl. Hey, you've got to bloom where you're planted. This website gave me some inspiration:
http://www.hongkiat.com/blog/amazing-whiteboard-art/

I will look into your suggestions. I can browse around now while still employed then maybe use some of these resources when I FIRE. I'm not sure if it will ever turn into anything profitable, but it sure would be fun to develop these skills more.

As far as the topic at hand for this thread...I guess I'm somewhere in the middle in my opinions.

There is something to be said to get to FI and then have the leisure to work on what you are truly interested in...less pressure to work on your art or social services work. We had a thread talking about that not too long ago. Sometimes you may not find what you are truly interested in until you are a little older. I sure wasn't ready to choose properly at 18 when I chose my college major. However, it has been a good ride and I have few regrets.

But, if you really know what you want at 18, what a great way to live your life working at what you love. However, like a poster said above maybe you won't always love that and will have missed out on a profitable 20s and 30s to get your financial footing to do what you really want. Or, you may be in a low paying job that you love but have financial pressures that take the pleasure of your work away.

[Daisy]

I think it's important to get some perspective here. If your passion will make you a starving artist, you'll be spending most of your time you would be doing art scrounging for food and rent. You'd probably be better off working a regular job and doing your art in your free time.

Again using the example of the starving artist, if you want to make art the only thing you do, then why not get an engineering degree (or the like with high income - I chose business), and reach FI in 10 years or less, whereby you can do only art for the rest of your life?

You can struggle to support yourself with art, or you can take control of your life through FI and make it into something you do full time. And that's the biggest deal here: you won't have to make money off of what you enjoy. I think doing what you love is a huge misnomer. Do what you love, but why do you need to make money off of it? I've heard of too many people "doing what they loved" such that they no longer enjoyed it due to needing to profit off of it (often what you are most proud of is not the work that sells).

I have no problem with people wanting to do art, and think it's an admirable profession. But with the current economic climate, it's financial suicide to graduate with an arts degree (or the like).

Yes, I just pretty much just said that. I read your post after I posted mine. :-)

[JetBlast]

In my case I was a professional pilot. In my 20's and early 30's I was earning less than one thousand dollars a month as a regional airline pilot and later thirty five thousand per year flying a Boeing 757 before I was laid off.

And what did you make in year two at those airlines?

How about after upgrade at the regional?

First year pay is horrible at all but a few of the major airlines. Regionals have always been regarded as a stepping stone, but in all honesty the guys and gals that have stayed at my regional are doing alright. First year pay was bad (~22k), but I made $35k in year 2 in the right seat of an RJ and kept going up each year. I know first officers making over $60k. I know multiple captains making over $120k flying RJs. I'd say the majority of captains are in the $85-100k range.  Not the huge salary most dreamed of when entering the profession, but certainly enough to live comfortably and build a decent stache.

Don't get me wrong, I have applications out with the higher paying majors, but I can't complain too loudly about the flying profession. Apart from the mandatory retirement age being changed and slowing down progression up the seniority list, it's been a decent ride so far.

Sounds like you had some rough luck getting furloughed from the 757 flying, as I can't imagine your pay wouldn't have gone up considerably with a year or two of longevity. Glad you found another job to meet your financial goals.

[clarkfan1979]

I had a Geology Prof in undergrad that told us he was worth about 10 million on the last day of class. He was around 65 and the year was 2001. He probably made 90K because he was 65, but he was probably around 50K-80K for the majority of his career. He told us that he didn't have to work at all but he worked because he enjoyed it. If you saw him teach, it was very easy to believe him. He loved teaching.  The message was that life was too short to not do something that you love. If you want some extra money, be frugal and invest the difference in the stock market.

I am a bit shocked at the number of people who question the value of a 4 year degree. I think the data is pretty convincing. In 2013 with an average unemployment rate of 6.1%, the unemployment rate for people with 4 year degrees was 4% and those with just a high school diploma was 7.5%. When the economy is doing well the gap shrinks. During times of recession the gap widens. 

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

[RetiredAt63]

I'm listening to Chris Hadfield read his book (An Astronaut's Guide to Life on Earth) and it is amazing.  And just think, this super busy man is reading his own book instead of getting a professional reader.  It is like sitting in the room with him, listening to him reminisce about his life.  He decided he wanted to be an astronaut at age 9 when he watched Neil Armstrong step onto the moon.  When Canada didn't even have a space program. He guided his life from then on by what would an astronaut have done?  But he knew the chances of getting into space were infinitesimal (after all, no CSA).  As we all know he did get into space (3 times) but the chances were so tiny.  He makes it clear that he never pinned his self worth or identity on his job, but he put masses of effort into it - it was a learning experience all the way. So a very interesting and informative take on an amazing career - that could have been massively different.

My $0.02 worth - it is fine talking about going into a high paying career - but if someone is not cut out for STEM they are not going to be good at it - then they will be in a career they don't like and are not good at, and that means they are unlikely to make a lot of money in it - so they are double screwed.  Better to be in something their strengths fit them better for, make closer to the high end in their job category because they are good at it and like it, and still go for FI.  The ER part matters more when you can't stand your job or the big money is sucking you in to too many hours and too much stress.

[pbkmaine]

I was an English major and got an MBA in Finance and Accounting. Companies loved this combination - it showed I had both qualitative and quantitative skills. I was always put on projects that involved writing and explanation of difficult subjects. I have done a lot of public speaking and media work. When I worked full time, my pay was in the low six figures. It could have been much more had I been willing to work the crazy jobs with "face time" requirements noted in other threads. Never wanted that. I once told a boss I would come in to work on Saturday only in case of global thermonuclear war.

[sheepstache]

I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain.

John Adams

Seeing as we (those of us in the first world and much of the 2nd) have liberty, I'll assume for the comment that MOST of us need not study politics and war to secure our liberty and go on to what John Adams said his son's must study in relation to their children.

Like this quote, but I never thought he meant it literally. Compared to John Adams' generation, I'm living a hugely luxurious, safe, stable lifestyle.  We're there. I don't have to study naval architecture to survive. I think raising the standard to 'you need to have $200k cash to drop on an arts degree' is a symptom of One More Generation syndrome :)

[senecando]

One More Generation syndrome :)

Yes! This is perfect.

[iwasjustwondering]

I have a French literature degree.

I now work in government communications/PR/media relations.  Some might consider my degree frivolous, but it's an interesting job, with very generous pay and benefits.  So I don't consider it to have been a frivolous endeavour.  I do a job I enjoy, meet interesting people, learn all kinds of new things, get paid very well, and most days I feel like what I'm doing could make a positive difference in someone's life.

People often forget about the very practical career possibilities for people with Arts/Humanities degrees.  Corporate communications (or government comms, PR, etc.) can be really interesting, and even in the private sector, the pay isn't terrible (not awesome, but not miserable either).  I work with policy analysts who have degrees in philosophy and also really enjoy their jobs and get paid well.  It's not all doom and gloom.

Yup.  I majored in English, and got a master's in Irish Literature.  I will make around $214,000 this year, mostly from my public relations job.  This work was also fantastic when I was a mother of young kids -- I worked as a freelance writer/PR consultant.  I had some lean years, but ended the run with a two-year contract for a retainer of $72K per year for 20 hours per week of work.

I won $50 bucks on a one dollar lottery ticket once. Luck, hard work, and circumstance has a role in all our lives however it seems to me that most English majors can not expect a similar outcome.

Skyhigh

I disagree.  Writing in a persuasive way, managing a large corporation's reputation and perception in the marketplace, is a very valuable skill.  It pays well.  It's more strategic than, say, fixing computers.  I can't swing a cat in NJ without hitting a dozen $200k English majors. 

Also, what about serving society?  Not me, but what about knowing history?  Is the intense study of history (beyond high school) valuable in any way for society?  Or is it just about cranking up the dollar-producing machine?