Author Topic: Freedom is relative if you have wealth apparently...  (Read 5018 times)

torso2500

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Freedom is relative if you have wealth apparently...
« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2024, 11:52:26 AM »


More wealth means more options and possibly more notoriety, but I'm not sure I view it as more wealth => novel risk. Plenty of people of pedestrian means are bullied or manipulated into granting POAs or other permissions to be abused in functionally similar ways to these conservatorships, it's just less likely to become publicized as no one is famous and there wasn't a huge pot of money to put in the headline. But money siphoned off by a leech relative over a lifetime can really add up as well.


One difference is that with a conservatorship, it is almost impossible to have it revoked. That's far less true with POAs.  Once you are under a conservatorship, even hiring a lawyer to review and challenge the conservatorship is a huge obstacle.  As I understand it, you don't have the ability to even sign a retainer or contract with a lawyer, nor do you have access to funds with which to pay them.  Because you basically are not a person, in the sense that you have essentially no agency at all. 

If I understood correctly, that was part of Brittany's issue.  She couldn't challenge the conservatorship or petition to have it ended or altered because only the conservatorship, as her legal voice, could take the steps necessary to do so.

I think at a minimum, conservatorships need to be subject to an automatic review at least every 2-3 years.  We can't just have these people with almost no rights and no power or voice, without some oversight.  The oversight of the people who benefit from maintaining the conservatorship shouldn't be enough to permanently remove even the most basic autonomy and agency.

All agreed on conservatorships and their additional power. Wealth does make those extra legal steps more likely to be on the table. However, I still feel that in practice, many people experience the underlying abuse without touching such legal channels. Many people grant POAs, have the legal ability to revoke them, yet never do despite the abuse. Or they do not make any legal designation let continually allow an abuser to make consequential and hurtful decisions for their lifetime. I do not think wealth is the driving factor in losing your effective freedom to coercive control.

Catbert

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3823
  • Location: Southern California
Re: Freedom is relative if you have wealth apparently...
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2024, 12:37:23 PM »
I don't know anything about conservatorship, so can someone please explain to me like I'm five: If the point of conservatorship is to protect the assets, how does the conservator get to make money off them? Doesn't the conservator have a fiduciary duty to preserve the assets?

To the original point, it strikes me that while this is an area where being wealthy puts you at risk in a way that poor people escape, it's also a way in which being wealthy means you're more likely to get needed treatment.

As others have pointed out conservators get paid.  So...you're old and have a run down house.  The conservator arranges repairs and maintenance.  They get paid for their time getting estimates, supervising work, etc.  If they are greedy they arrange for overpriced repairs and get a kickback from the scammy contractor.  Or they "check on you" weekly involving an overpriced lunch where you pay for their time, transportation expenses and, of course the lunch you didn't want.  Then they move you into an expensive assisted living facility where they get a kickback and continue to visit you for a price.  Finally you're running out of money so they sell your home (lots of ways to extract extra money if they're dishonest) to pay for your assisted living facility.  Finally, you're out of money so bye-bye. 


ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8346
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Freedom is relative if you have wealth apparently...
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2024, 01:57:41 PM »
Regular people are not often put into conservatorship because it isn't worth it to spend $100k in legal fees to protect less than $100k in assets. People in true crisis rarely have large amounts of money anyway. That's sorta the beginning and the end of the explanation. Rich + mentally incapacitated is a rare combination.

The idea is for people who care to preserve some of the person's assets so that when they get well or get clean they won't be at financial rock bottom. And in the meantime there's money to pay for their care.

I would be interested to know if anyone has studied how often this narrative plays out, versus the Britney Spears narrative, and versus the vulnerable-person-fleeced-of-everything scenarios.

If you are an alcoholic, drug addict, senile elder, or mentally ill person, the circle of vultures forms quickly around you. You have already lost your freedom anyway, and can only act in ways detrimental to your well-being, so the only question is which business or person will take how much of your assets. None of these conditions are anyone's fault necessarily (let he who has never tried drugs or alcohol, and who is immune from mental illness cast the first stone) but it is a feature of our system that anyone making consistently sub-optimal decisions will eventually be picked clean, financially.

Conservatorship can be used to put control in the hands of just another vulture, but it hypothetically allows families to not be crushed by the costs of caring for a relative out of pocket, after that relative has lost their wealth to the vultures. Cher, for example, will end up paying for her child's care after he spends all his money on drugs. He is a liability on her books, so she has a claim on his assets for causing this liability.

Villanelle

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7388
Re: Freedom is relative if you have wealth apparently...
« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2024, 03:57:55 PM »
I know there's no clear delineation, but to me, conservatorship should not (edited to add the missed "not) be used to prevent people from making bad decisions.  Even if those decisions including giving money to scammers or hangers-on.  Or buying meth.  (That's starts to get into the gray area of metal illness.)  Britney still seems to be unwell and unstable.  She is likely to keep making bad decisions.  It's not the courts' job to prevent people from being idiots, or from losing all their money. 

And ultimately, Cher doesn't have to pay for her son's care after he spends all his money on drugs.  That's her choice.  So stripping him of legal rights in order to prevent her from having to make that choice seems inherently wrong. The only semi-decent explanation I could see is that his addition is a mental illness and it is so severe that he can not be trusted to make *any* decision on his own because he's so unwell.  That's a gray area, but at least it is in the gray area (or what I consider the gray area).  Any argument about she has to pay for his car if his broke is entirely irrelevant, as far as I'm concerned, as in any argument that he's making bad decisions and that needs to be stopped.

Today, DH and I went out to lunch at a coffee shop.  Bad financial decision.  He said is coffee was awful and he'd been looking forward to a great cup of coffee, which was the entire reason he suggested we go to lunch.  So, we threw caution to the wind and went to Starbucks (he likes their coffee).  Another bad decision. Should we be placed in a conservatorship?  If I go and buy $10,000 in lottery tickets because the Powerball jackpot is massive, should I lose the legal right to make my own choices about everything from medical care to who I can spend time or communicate with? 

Even if I am mentally ill, unless the situation is so extreme, should I be stripped of nearly all basic rights?  IMO, that should be an exceptionally high bar. 
« Last Edit: January 03, 2024, 12:29:33 PM by Villanelle »

cannotWAIT

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
Re: Freedom is relative if you have wealth apparently...
« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2024, 07:13:06 PM »
In my state, each county has a Board of Community Guardian consisting of at least 7 and not more than 11 people who serve without pay. I have served on the board so am familiar with its operations.  If a person is in need of guardianship or conservatorship and there isn't anyone else to serve, then the board as a whole is appointed. Technically they merely serve as guardians and conservators, but in reality they often get personally involved with the protected person, taking them out to lunch, cleaning out their terrible hoarding situations, sitting with them as they're dying. Decisions regarding the protected person are made by vote and are obviously made without a profit motive. It's not a perfect system, but it's pretty good, and definitely not I Care a Lot.

Some of the people who end up under Board protection do have assets. What they don't have is somebody else petitioning to serve as guardian. Because if a person is in need of a guardian and they have a friend or relative willing to serve, that person will be prioritized over the Board if they are otherwise competent to serve.

eyesonthehorizon

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1094
  • Location: Texas
Re: Freedom is relative if you have wealth apparently...
« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2024, 07:56:05 PM »
I know there's no clear delineation, but to me, conservatorship should be used to prevent people from making bad decisions. ...
(IMO it is pretty clear you meant to have a negative in this phrase from the rest of the post, just noting you in case you want to edit)

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8346
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Freedom is relative if you have wealth apparently...
« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2024, 08:26:31 PM »
In my state, each county has a Board of Community Guardian consisting of at least 7 and not more than 11 people who serve without pay. I have served on the board so am familiar with its operations.  If a person is in need of guardianship or conservatorship and there isn't anyone else to serve, then the board as a whole is appointed. Technically they merely serve as guardians and conservators, but in reality they often get personally involved with the protected person, taking them out to lunch, cleaning out their terrible hoarding situations, sitting with them as they're dying. Decisions regarding the protected person are made by vote and are obviously made without a profit motive. It's not a perfect system, but it's pretty good, and definitely not I Care a Lot.

Some of the people who end up under Board protection do have assets. What they don't have is somebody else petitioning to serve as guardian. Because if a person is in need of a guardian and they have a friend or relative willing to serve, that person will be prioritized over the Board if they are otherwise competent to serve.
This would seem to solve the problems with incentives, but where do you find such volunteers and what type of people would like to volunteer for such a job?

Sugaree

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1872
Re: Freedom is relative if you have wealth apparently...
« Reply #57 on: January 03, 2024, 05:46:22 AM »
When I was doing my estate planning, it was highly recommended that the person who would be named guardian of my son would absolutely not be the trustee over his money.  This makes sense to me and I'm not sure why this wouldn't be standard in guardianship/conservatorship cases.

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 21130
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Freedom is relative if you have wealth apparently...
« Reply #58 on: January 03, 2024, 11:01:25 AM »
When I was doing my estate planning, it was highly recommended that the person who would be named guardian of my son would absolutely not be the trustee over his money.  This makes sense to me and I'm not sure why this wouldn't be standard in guardianship/conservatorship cases.

This makes perfect sense.  The family your child would be living with need to be a good fit emotionally, but having the trustee be a less involved person makes sense.

Of course I agree with you, because if anything happens to DD and SiL, my grand-daughter goes with cousins (they love her, their kids adore her) and I am the trustee.

Villanelle

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7388
Re: Freedom is relative if you have wealth apparently...
« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2024, 12:29:45 PM »
I know there's no clear delineation, but to me, conservatorship should be used to prevent people from making bad decisions. ...
(IMO it is pretty clear you meant to have a negative in this phrase from the rest of the post, just noting you in case you want to edit)

Thanks!

iris lily

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6212
Re: Freedom is relative if you have wealth apparently...
« Reply #60 on: January 05, 2024, 10:51:40 AM »


Who says having kids and relatives is protective? Most of the cases that I've seen *are* relatives petitioning for control. I know you said relatives you trust, but as someone who is related to a lot of people I don't trust, I'm not.inckined to bank on relatives.

Yes! When I read this dtory about
Rudy I thought hunh, that is unusual. A ceiminal and conartist operating there.

I would wager that for every criminal con preying on the elderly to get all of their assets there are 20x that number of close relatives doing same.