Forget $600K, retire on $100K in the Philippines (or other country)

[lefty]

I'm curious.
When retiring overseas, how does one make withdrawals from your bank in the US?
ATM ?
I'm assuming the bank has your overseas address?

[Zikoris]

I'm curious.
When retiring overseas, how does one make withdrawals from your bank in the US?
ATM ?
I'm assuming the bank has your overseas address?

If I were staying somewhere for an extended time, I would probably open a local bank account and transfer money into it in lump sums every few months.

For travel/short stays, a combination of ATMs and credit cards should do the trick.

[Albert]

Quite obviously you have a local bank account to which you occasionally wire money from your primary source of funding. That's of course assuming that the country you have moved to have a normal banking environment. I don't have any experience with places where that is not true...

[lefty]

So why not use a US bank with a Global ATM network? One wouldn't need to wire from bank to bank ?

[Albert]

Because you'd have to pay a fees and convert currencies every time you withdraw money from your local ATM. That will end up being a lot more expensive than wiring money 3-4 times a year. Also occasionally some services could only be paid with locally issued cards.

[Overseas Stache]

I think to retain US citizenship you need to come back to US once every 2 years.

I am not sure where you heard this but it is not true. Why would the US take away your citizenship when the have a tax incentive to let you keep it?

[Albert]

I happen to know several US citizens here who have lived there less than 20% of their lives and have no real connection to the country. Some of them have decided to relinquish their citizenship for tax reasons, though. In the past US government didn't look closely at such loosely connected people, but in the last 10 years it has changed.

[Zummbot]

Because you'd have to pay a fees and convert currencies every time you withdraw money from your local ATM. That will end up being a lot more expensive than wiring money 3-4 times a year. Also occasionally some services could only be paid with locally issued cards.

Nope! Banks will bone you TWICE with a wire transfer: first with a flat fee (typically around $40) and then with the crappy exchange rate they will offer you! ATM's are far and away the easiest and cheapest way to get cash in a foreign country. There are a few banks that have accounts that allow you to withdraw money in a foreign country free of charge, and then they REFUND the fees charged by the foreign bank for using the ATM. Charles Schwab is one of them:

http://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/banking_lending/checking_account

They don't bone you on the exchange rate either. Schwab uses the exchange rate that is set by VISA each day, which is only a fraction above the actual exchange rate. See here:

http://usa.visa.com/personal/card-benefits/travel/exchange-rate-calculator.jsp

There are some details you should be aware of: You have to open the account while you are a US resident, and you have to have a US address on file with the bank. So hopefully a friend/family member wouldn't mind you putting their address on your application if you're not living in the country. With Schwab you have to also open a brokerage account in order to open a checking account, but they don't put a minimum balance on it so throw in a dollar and call it a day. You can even send fee-free wire transfers from the brokerage account, and can transfer money for free between your checking account and the brokerage account. Most ATM's have a daily withdrawal limit, so if you want to buy a house in a foreign country (for example) you should still use a wire transfer for a large amount like that. But for 99% of your daily spending you can keep your money in dollars and pay essentially zero fees for using that money overseas.

[Overseas Stache]

Something similar IS true for green card holders, and I bet that's where the rumor started. But it's definitely not true of US citizens. I could transmit my US citizenship to my child despite giving birth in a foreign country and the child could retain it for their entire lives, even pass it on to THEIR children, without ever setting foot on U.S. soil. (Well at some point you may have to go to an embassy and I think that's technically U.S. soil, but you get my drift...)

Ok so this is not really true either. If only one parent is an American Citizen and the child is born outside of the USA the following must be true in order to get Citizenship "The U.S. citizen parent had been physically present in the U.S. or its territories for a period of at least five years at some time in his or her life prior to the birth, of which at least two years were after his or her 14th birthday. " So it is not possible to pass on your Citizenship without living for some time in the USA if you marry a non american.

[lefty]

Because you'd have to pay a fees and convert currencies every time you withdraw money from your local ATM. That will end up being a lot more expensive than wiring money 3-4 times a year. Also occasionally some services could only be paid with locally issued cards.

Nope! Banks will bone you TWICE with a wire transfer: first with a flat fee (typically around $40) and then with the crappy exchange rate they will offer you! ATM's are far and away the easiest and cheapest way to get cash in a foreign country. There are a few banks that have accounts that allow you to withdraw money in a foreign country free of charge, and then they REFUND the fees charged by the foreign bank for using the ATM. Charles Schwab is one of them:

http://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/banking_lending/checking_account

They don't bone you on the exchange rate either. Schwab uses the exchange rate that is set by VISA each day, which is only a fraction above the actual exchange rate. See here:

http://usa.visa.com/personal/card-benefits/travel/exchange-rate-calculator.jsp

There are some details you should be aware of: You have to open the account while you are a US resident, and you have to have a US address on file with the bank. So hopefully a friend/family member wouldn't mind you putting their address on your application if you're not living in the country. With Schwab you have to also open a brokerage account in order to open a checking account, but they don't put a minimum balance on it so throw in a dollar and call it a day. You can even send fee-free wire transfers from the brokerage account, and can transfer money for free between your checking account and the brokerage account. Most ATM's have a daily withdrawal limit, so if you want to buy a house in a foreign country (for example) you should still use a wire transfer for a large amount like that. But for 99% of your daily spending you can keep your money in dollars and pay essentially zero fees for using that money overseas.

Crap! Too bad, I will not have a US address while I am overseas. I have to think of some other way.
Anyone have any bright ideas, please chime in.

[Overseas Stache]

Something similar IS true for green card holders, and I bet that's where the rumor started. But it's definitely not true of US citizens. I could transmit my US citizenship to my child despite giving birth in a foreign country and the child could retain it for their entire lives, even pass it on to THEIR children, without ever setting foot on U.S. soil. (Well at some point you may have to go to an embassy and I think that's technically U.S. soil, but you get my drift...)

Ok so this is not really true either. If only one parent is an American Citizen and the child is born outside of the USA the following must be true in order to get Citizenship "The U.S. citizen parent had been physically present in the U.S. or its territories for a period of at least five years at some time in his or her life prior to the birth, of which at least two years were after his or her 14th birthday. " So it is not possible to pass on your Citizenship without living for some time in the USA if you marry a non american.

Huh. I had no idea. I know Canada has some interesting laws about transmitting citizenship and there was a situation where a child with two Canadian parents was born a citizen of nowhere, which is a huge problem.

http://blog.lostcanadian.com/2010/10/vancouver-sun-ireland-saves-canadians.html

Yes it is a very obscure little piece of information that I still remember from high school government class. I guess I remembered it because it meant I would have to go back to the USA for college if I wanted to make sure my children were US citizens.

There are many countries with weird Citizenship laws. South Africa for example does not give citizenship by birth, so even if my next child were to be born in South Africa he/she would not be a South African citizen because we are not South African citizens.

[Overseas Stache]

Something similar IS true for green card holders, and I bet that's where the rumor started. But it's definitely not true of US citizens. I could transmit my US citizenship to my child despite giving birth in a foreign country and the child could retain it for their entire lives, even pass it on to THEIR children, without ever setting foot on U.S. soil. (Well at some point you may have to go to an embassy and I think that's technically U.S. soil, but you get my drift...)

Ok so this is not really true either. If only one parent is an American Citizen and the child is born outside of the USA the following must be true in order to get Citizenship "The U.S. citizen parent had been physically present in the U.S. or its territories for a period of at least five years at some time in his or her life prior to the birth, of which at least two years were after his or her 14th birthday. " So it is not possible to pass on your Citizenship without living for some time in the USA if you marry a non american.

Huh. I had no idea. I know Canada has some interesting laws about transmitting citizenship and there was a situation where a child with two Canadian parents was born a citizen of nowhere, which is a huge problem.

http://blog.lostcanadian.com/2010/10/vancouver-sun-ireland-saves-canadians.html

Yes it is a very obscure little piece of information that I still remember from high school government class. I guess I remembered it because it meant I would have to go back to the USA for college if I wanted to make sure my children were US citizens.

There are many countries with weird Citizenship laws. South Africa for example does not give citizenship by birth, so even if my next child were to be born in South Africa he/she would not be a South African citizen because we are not South African citizens.

That actually makes sense to me. If a Japanese woman on vacation in Finland gives birth there, everyone back in Japan will recognize the child as Japanese, and the child in question has no real meaningful connection to Finland beyond an accident of timing. It seems weird to me that he'd be  automatically recognized as Finnish as a result. I can see granting jus soli citizenship to children born with one citizen parent or even one permanent resident parent, but it seems the current system is just begging for birth tourism.

I'm curious: did you come back to the U.S. for college?

Yes I came back to the USA for college, married an Argentinian and got her citizenship before we went back to Africa. Both my girls were also born in the USA (we traveled back for their births) so in the end it didn't matter, but the next one likely will not be born in the USA.

[Albert]

That makes perfect sense. You don't really want citizens which have zero connections to your country.

Actually US is one of the very few countries (ca 30 mostly in Americas) which give it's citizenship to everyone who is born there. This sometimes leads to very unusual situations in our increasingly connected world. For example, I know a woman who was born in US to Dutch parents then left at age six and grew up, went to university in Germany. Now she lives in Switzerland and has two daughters born here with a man from Venezuela. Her daughters are Dutch citizens though despite the fact that their mother has never lived in Netherlands and they don't speak any Dutch (English and Spanish at home, German at school and with friends). It doesn't matter much and getting Swiss citizenship will be easy when they are adults, but still it's a bit weird.

[goodlife]

I'm curious.
When retiring overseas, how does one make withdrawals from your bank in the US?
ATM ?
I'm assuming the bank has your overseas address?

This is very simple and completely fee free. Just open a bank account with the same global bank in both countries, i.e. Citibank, HSBC come to mind. Then you make free transfers between your accounts and you can use the ATM card at any of their ATMs globally fee free.

[lefty]

I'm curious.
When retiring overseas, how does one make withdrawals from your bank in the US?
ATM ?
I'm assuming the bank has your overseas address?

This is very simple and completely fee free. Just open a bank account with the same global bank in both countries, i.e. Citibank, HSBC come to mind. Then you make free transfers between your accounts and you can use the ATM card at any of their ATMs globally fee free.

Great! Have you personally tried this? What are these international bank accounts called? Those that span across and accessible between countries? Say HSBC for instance, there are Advance and Premier accounts but they are not free.
Could you kindly elaborate?

I've tried doing this in the past (not HSBC but with Bank of America and Barclays, both with international presence with local branches) but accounts from 1 country are not accessible by another and is treated as a standard wire transfer.

[seanc0x0]

Don't you still have to pay US taxes if you are a US citizen (and a dual citizen w another country) ?

I believe you have to pay taxes on any income earned in the US like from pensions, other retirement accounts and investments, and also on some foreign income if you earn any money in there. I also read of something called an expat tax that is levied on US Citizens living abroad but don't know anything about it.

* You only pay taxes on income earned overseas if your income (income earned outside the US) is over ~90K. You would be taxed on your US income from investments there: dividends, pensions, capital gains, etc. A good accountant with experience dealing w/US expats can help you sort this out.

You always have to file, as well as disclose any accounts you have. Failure to do so will result in penalties of ridiculous proportion. Financial institutions that don't report the accounts of all US persons who have accounts with them face punitive taxes on any transactions involving the US. This is all part of FATCA, which has caused a lot of grief for a lot of expats, and is driving the record levels of renunciations that have been seen over the last couple of years. It's gotten so bad they've increased the fee to renounce from $450 to $2350, but it doesn't seem to be slowing it down any.

I just got my Certificate of Loss of Nationality month or so ago. I was born in the US, but have lived in Canada since before I can remember, and never really considered myself a US citizen. Didn't realize I was supposed to be filing US taxes every year, whether or not I had income that would be taxed under the Canada-US tax treaty. I imagine it would be worse in places that don't have the close economic relationship that Canada does with the US. Definitely something to be aware of, if you're planning to leave the US and drop residency there.

[Lukim]

I have just racked up 27 years as an expat in South East Asia.

I have been financially independent for a few years but continue to live and work in South East Asia.

I am probably not going to retire in South East Asia but I am a bit surprised at the comment that you could live comfortably in Philippines or anywhere for $150/month.  You could survive on $150/month provided you had somewhere to live (and that was not coming out of your living allowance).

My rough monthly figures for a single person or couple to live a basic life in South East Asia (excluding Singapore) are;

Accommodation (Basic)  $800
Electricity  $100
Food $300
Internet / phone $50
Transport (taxis) $50
Medical insurance  $100.

That does not include any allowance for doing the type of things you may want to do in retirement such as drink a few beers each week, go to movies, play tennis or golf, travel, have a massage.  So I would be adding in another $600 per month for those items.

Then you may want to put aside $300 a month to travel back to your home country every year.

So I think you are looking at $2,300 or so a month.

Unfortunately, I do not have a very Mustachian lifestyle so my monthly figure is more like $8,000.

[goodlife]

I'm curious.
When retiring overseas, how does one make withdrawals from your bank in the US?
ATM ?
I'm assuming the bank has your overseas address?

This is very simple and completely fee free. Just open a bank account with the same global bank in both countries, i.e. Citibank, HSBC come to mind. Then you make free transfers between your accounts and you can use the ATM card at any of their ATMs globally fee free.

Great! Have you personally tried this? What are these international bank accounts called? Those that span across and accessible between countries? Say HSBC for instance, there are Advance and Premier accounts but they are not free.
Could you kindly elaborate?

I've tried doing this in the past (not HSBC but with Bank of America and Barclays, both with international presence with local branches) but accounts from 1 country are not accessible by another and is treated as a standard wire transfer.

I can't really speak for HSBC anymore because I haven't had an account with them in quite a while now. I have Citibank accounts in 5 countries (3 continents, 4 currencies). There is the Citibank Global Transfer system which is free between your Citibank accounts. You can link all of your Citibank accounts as well. Of course you get an ATM card for each of your bank accounts which you can use anywhere in the world for free at all Citibank ATMs (and some other ATMs depending on their alliances in certain countries which you would need to check on a country by country basis). For ATM withdrawals from a Citibank ATM in a different currency than your account currency, there is no fee as well and the exchange rate is the spot rate. For transfer from one currency to the other between your Citibank accounts, the exchange rate is pretty much the spot rate of the day, there is only a very minimal spread and of course there is no fee for transferring between your Citibank accounts. I am also a Citigold member which is what you become when you have at least 50k (I think it's 50k) deposited/invested with them somehow (not sure about the exact requirements, may also vary by country, but it always transferred for me too all the countries where I opened an account, it's not like I have to have 50k in each account to be a Citigold member). There is also no monthly fee for the accounts at all.

[paddedhat]

I was fortunate enough to do a short term gig in the Philippines with a non-profit. It is an amazing place. I had several interesting interactions with ex-pats. Several of the older American men in our outfit had been there, on assignment for a year or two, and had zero interest in returning to life in the US. I also met a retired postal worker who had zero retirement savings, yet was living like a king. He had a walled compound with a small home, a detached apartment for the help, gardens, a nice car, a housekeeper, driver and gardener. All of this was easily covered by his postal pension.

 OTOH, we have an acquaintance who is living a literal hell on earth with his S.E Asia mail order bride. The guy is a completely free of any backbone, and the wife quickly positioned herself as the next Kardashian. She got a visa for her mother, and moved her in. They currently are building a literal estate on six acres of  expensive dirt in the NYC area, and it has been under construction for half a decade.  The taxes on the unfinished mess are north of $30K and he will be well into the multi-millions in costs, when and if, the queen declares it done. I will be shocked if the guy doesn't swallow a pistol, or drop dead from the stress in the next few years.

[franklin w. dixon]

I notice the model here is to save up about $600K plus pay off the mortgage and get involved in some post-retirement rental/business.  The question I have to ask you is why do you restrict yourself to your home country?  Lot's of other countries are available where you can live off of $150/mo.  Has anyone considered this in their FIRE plans?  I lived in the Philippines for 6 months with a charity and spent about $150/mo. and I have to say, I didn't really feel like I was left wanting anything.  The population was very friendly and seemed to spend thier free time within social gatherings versus spending a lot of money, rode bikes, didn't need hot water (water was already comfortable since the ground temperature was high), ate lots of rice and fish (protein rich).  The original Mustachians.

I don't want to live in the Philippines. The climate is godawful. None of my family is there. None of my friends are there. It's not somewhere I want to raise my children. I'd rather work and live in the States than be retired in the Philippines. And my husband did not emigrate FROM that part of the world to move BACK there. He'd never go.

Haha the other day I was talking to my wife about where we could live in the future. Her parents live in Beijing and she was saying oh it's so expensive there etc. and I was like well we could live in Mudanjiang (where she's from) and she said "I didn't leave Mudanjiang just to drag my ass back there 20 years later!!" and I was like "yikes."

[lefty]

I'm curious.
When retiring overseas, how does one make withdrawals from your bank in the US?
ATM ?
I'm assuming the bank has your overseas address?

This is very simple and completely fee free. Just open a bank account with the same global bank in both countries, i.e. Citibank, HSBC come to mind. Then you make free transfers between your accounts and you can use the ATM card at any of their ATMs globally fee free.

Great! Have you personally tried this? What are these international bank accounts called? Those that span across and accessible between countries? Say HSBC for instance, there are Advance and Premier accounts but they are not free.
Could you kindly elaborate?

I've tried doing this in the past (not HSBC but with Bank of America and Barclays, both with international presence with local branches) but accounts from 1 country are not accessible by another and is treated as a standard wire transfer.

I can't really speak for HSBC anymore because I haven't had an account with them in quite a while now. I have Citibank accounts in 5 countries (3 continents, 4 currencies). There is the Citibank Global Transfer system which is free between your Citibank accounts. You can link all of your Citibank accounts as well. Of course you get an ATM card for each of your bank accounts which you can use anywhere in the world for free at all Citibank ATMs (and some other ATMs depending on their alliances in certain countries which you would need to check on a country by country basis). For ATM withdrawals from a Citibank ATM in a different currency than your account currency, there is no fee as well and the exchange rate is the spot rate. For transfer from one currency to the other between your Citibank accounts, the exchange rate is pretty much the spot rate of the day, there is only a very minimal spread and of course there is no fee for transferring between your Citibank accounts. I am also a Citigold member which is what you become when you have at least 50k (I think it's 50k) deposited/invested with them somehow (not sure about the exact requirements, may also vary by country, but it always transferred for me too all the countries where I opened an account, it's not like I have to have 50k in each account to be a Citigold member). There is also no monthly fee for the accounts at all.

Interesting!  I just went to the citibank site and it requires a current US address with at least US permanent residency. I went to another citibank site in another country and that too required a local address and be at least a permanent resident. I went to a 3rd and that had the same requirements. Looks like I need a minimum $50k to avoid the fees and the above local residency stipulations. Is there a trick to this? Aside from the $50k, how can I open up these local accounts with 1 local/residential address and status at any 1 time? Is there some trick to this?

[Albert]

This is very individual. I know a Colombian guy who would love to move back to Columbia once he and his Swiss wife are retired in 5-10 years. Wife is not so wild about that idea so maybe it doesn't work out after all.

[Roland of Gilead]

You can live very cheaply in the USA in the climate zone you prefer (hot, cold, rain, sun) so I do not see a reason to trade this for a unstable regime.

At low income levels in the USA there are a lot of freebies, and if you are in an area like the south you can easily live on much less than a $600k nest egg.

My parents rent a 3 bd townhouse on a golf course for $500 a month in the south.  A local country food restaurant (chicken, fried okra, mashed potatoes, biscuit, sweet iced tea) is $4 a person for a meal.  Ok, well you would need the free ACA healthcare if you partake of too much of that :-)

[goodlife]

I'm curious.
When retiring overseas, how does one make withdrawals from your bank in the US?
ATM ?
I'm assuming the bank has your overseas address?

This is very simple and completely fee free. Just open a bank account with the same global bank in both countries, i.e. Citibank, HSBC come to mind. Then you make free transfers between your accounts and you can use the ATM card at any of their ATMs globally fee free.

Great! Have you personally tried this? What are these international bank accounts called? Those that span across and accessible between countries? Say HSBC for instance, there are Advance and Premier accounts but they are not free.
Could you kindly elaborate?

I've tried doing this in the past (not HSBC but with Bank of America and Barclays, both with international presence with local branches) but accounts from 1 country are not accessible by another and is treated as a standard wire transfer.

I can't really speak for HSBC anymore because I haven't had an account with them in quite a while now. I have Citibank accounts in 5 countries (3 continents, 4 currencies). There is the Citibank Global Transfer system which is free between your Citibank accounts. You can link all of your Citibank accounts as well. Of course you get an ATM card for each of your bank accounts which you can use anywhere in the world for free at all Citibank ATMs (and some other ATMs depending on their alliances in certain countries which you would need to check on a country by country basis). For ATM withdrawals from a Citibank ATM in a different currency than your account currency, there is no fee as well and the exchange rate is the spot rate. For transfer from one currency to the other between your Citibank accounts, the exchange rate is pretty much the spot rate of the day, there is only a very minimal spread and of course there is no fee for transferring between your Citibank accounts. I am also a Citigold member which is what you become when you have at least 50k (I think it's 50k) deposited/invested with them somehow (not sure about the exact requirements, may also vary by country, but it always transferred for me too all the countries where I opened an account, it's not like I have to have 50k in each account to be a Citigold member). There is also no monthly fee for the accounts at all.

Interesting!  I just went to the citibank site and it requires a current US address with at least US permanent residency. I went to another citibank site in another country and that too required a local address and be at least a permanent resident. I went to a 3rd and that had the same requirements. Looks like I need a minimum $50k to avoid the fees and the above local residency stipulations. Is there a trick to this? Aside from the $50k, how can I open up these local accounts with 1 local/residential address and status at any 1 time? Is there some trick to this?

Oh, well, not as far as I know. I have those accounts because I used to live in those places at some point...and never closed them when I left (Citibank knows that I don't live there anymore, but that hasn't bothered them at all). But to initially open the account...well yes...I guess you do have to show up at a bank in that country and open the account. I have not done it any other way (well, I have, there are some online banks that allow you to just open an account with them by emailing them certain docs and you don't have to be a resident or anything). I was meaning this more for someone who is retiring overseas: assume you move from the US to Thailand. So you have a US Citibank account. Then since you live in Thailand, you just go to Citibank there, open an account and voila, you can transfer around money for free to your heart's content.

[Chuck]

Any thoughts on meeting a romantic partner while FIRE'd single (in my early 30's) in Southeast Asia? So far my success has not been good as a young male living in Silicon Valley, but I still wouldn't mind changing that. ;)

If I was a Magic 8-Ball right now, I'd say "Concentrate and ask again."

SE Asia is heaven for a single guy with a little bit of money. Many beautiful young women who will be very interested in you, and communication will be quite a bit easier than in other parts of the world since most college age people speak some English. However, long term relationships, especially looking towards marriage, have a number of serious pitfalls you need to try to avoid.

The first is finacial. It can be expected of you, as a monied individual (especially by local standards), to contribute to the family financially. This is because it is the norm in much of SE Asia for children to support their parents in their old age, with the most being required from the most successful child. Your hypothetical wife, being married to a rich dude, will be deemed the most successful. This is one of the reasons that it's important to try to stick to your socio-economic class when you date in a foreign country.

However, the type of woman that you would be trying to date: Single, professional, well educated and from a good family... is going to be much harder to find, and might be pressured by her family into not being in a relationship with you.

My sincere advice, from someone who was also single in that part of the world, is to have fun and date... but don't get your hopes up about finding a wife. There will be many women willing to marry you, but most of them aren't the type of person you will be happily married to several years later.

[Beric01]

Any thoughts on meeting a romantic partner while FIRE'd single (in my early 30's) in Southeast Asia? So far my success has not been good as a young male living in Silicon Valley, but I still wouldn't mind changing that. ;)

If I was a Magic 8-Ball right now, I'd say "Concentrate and ask again."

SE Asia is heaven for a single guy with a little bit of money. Many beautiful young women who will be very interested in you, and communication will be quite a bit easier than in other parts of the world since most college age people speak some English. However, long term relationships, especially looking towards marriage, have a number of serious pitfalls you need to try to avoid.

The first is finacial. It can be expected of you, as a monied individual (especially by local standards), to contribute to the family financially. This is because it is the norm in much of SE Asia for children to support their parents in their old age, with the most being required from the most successful child. Your hypothetical wife, being married to a rich dude, will be deemed the most successful. This is one of the reasons that it's important to try to stick to your socio-economic class when you date in a foreign country.

However, the type of woman that you would be trying to date: Single, professional, well educated and from a good family... is going to be much harder to find, and might be pressured by her family into not being in a relationship with you.

My sincere advice, from someone who was also single in that part of the world, is to have fun and date... but don't get your hopes up about finding a wife. There will be many women willing to marry you, but most of them aren't the type of person you will be happily married to several years later.

Thanks! I actually started a thread where I went more into detail. Note that I'm now taking some concrete steps in the short term on self-improvement, so much has changed from my OP.

[TomTX]

My brother married a woman from SE Asia. After they consolidated all of their student loans and she had a green card - it turned out she was 10 years older than she claimed,  and shortly thereafter she vanished,  leaving him the student loans, joint credit card debt, etc.

[frugal_c]

I don't think I would do it full-time but this sounds like a good back-up plan.   If I was FIRE'd and we had another period like 08-09 where you really want to cut down on costs, this would be an option.  You could just buy a one-way ticket to south-east asian country of your choice and live there cheaply until the markets recover.   I am not sure about living off of $200-300 / month, that sounds really tight, but I have heard you can live quite nicely and travel for 7-800 if you are willing to make a few sacrifices.   

[iris lily]

The reason I restrict retirement to Western countries is because I am energized by Western institutions. I want a public library with a collection of at least 250,000 items. No, e-readers are paltry for for heavily illustrated books. I want reliable internet service. I want to live in a place with interesting architecture, with a high sense of history and preservation of that.  I want movie theaters, dramatic theater groups, art  galleries, speakers' series presentations, etc.

I also NEED a cold weather gardening place, I have no interest in growing only tropical plants and all of those warm-weather places are limited to tropicals. See my name here? I grow iris and lilies, and lilies need vernalization (cold winter.) Besides, the warm weather places have cockroaches the size of my hand, ugh.

I have toyed with the idea of Bulgaria as a retirement place because it has some Western attributes and probably has the right gardening weather. It's an interesting area and has great architecture, and it has great proximity to more expensive parts of Europe where I would might live if I were rich.

tl;dr: don't like warm weather places. 

[limeandpepper]

Lot's of other countries are available where you can live off of $150/mo.  Has anyone considered this in their FIRE plans?  I lived in the Philippines for 6 months with a charity and spent about $150/mo. and I have to say, I didn't really feel like I was left wanting anything.

I am guessing that due to the charity work, some of your accommodation/living costs were subsidized? Or maybe this was a long time ago when things cost less? I would be interested in getting a breakdown of your $150/month expenditure.

[deborah]

The reason I restrict retirement to Western countries is because I am energized by Western institutions. I want a public library with a collection of at least 250,000 items. No, e-readers are paltry for for heavily illustrated books. I want reliable internet service. I want to live in a place with interesting architecture, with a high sense of history and preservation of that.  I want movie theaters, dramatic theater groups, art  galleries, speakers' series presentations, etc.

I also NEED a cold weather gardening place, I have no interest in growing only tropical plants and all of those warm-weather places are limited to tropicals. See my name here? I grow iris and lilies, and lilies need vernalization (cold winter.) Besides, the warm weather places have cockroaches the size of my hand, ugh.

I have toyed with the idea of Bulgaria as a retirement place because it has some Western attributes and probably has the right gardening weather. It's an interesting area and has great architecture, and it has great proximity to more expensive parts of Europe where I would might live if I were rich.

tl;dr: don't like warm weather places. 

What about southern South America?

[Captain and Mrs Slow]

My rough monthly figures for a single person or couple to live a basic life in South East Asia (excluding Singapore) are;

Accommodation (Basic)  $800
Electricity  $100
Food $300
Internet / phone $50
Transport (taxis) $50
Medical insurance  $100.

That does not include any allowance for doing the type of things you may want to do in retirement such as drink a few beers each week, go to movies, play tennis or golf, travel, have a massage.  So I would be adding in another $600 per month for those items.

Very interesting as that could be the cost of living anywhere in the EU (if you converted the numbers to Euros) for example this are the rough costs of living in Munich Germany, one of the most expensive ares in Germany.

Accommodation (Basic)  €800
Electricity  €40
Food 140 -250
Internet / phone €50
Transport (public) €50
Medical insurance  ???

You can live comfortably in Munich on 1500€ a month as a single person.

Maybe as everyone is young but what about health insurance? I've had 4 knee operations and facing an operation for prostate cancer now

[Bob W]

One could retire in Missouri on 400 a month with a 40k paid off house.  So what is that,  150k net savings?  Water 50, heat 80,  tax/ins 60,  food 75,  phone 10,  misc 100

[ThatEnglishGuy]

I notice the model here is to save up about $600K plus pay off the mortgage and get involved in some post-retirement rental/business.  The question I have to ask you is why do you restrict yourself to your home country?  Lot's of other countries are available where you can live off of $150/mo.  Has anyone considered this in their FIRE plans?  I lived in the Philippines for 6 months with a charity and spent about $150/mo. and I have to say, I didn't really feel like I was left wanting anything.  The population was very friendly and seemed to spend thier free time within social gatherings versus spending a lot of money, rode bikes, didn't need hot water (water was already comfortable since the ground temperature was high), ate lots of rice and fish (protein rich).  The original Mustachians.

How interesting that you would call Filipinos "the original Mustachians," as I often feel I am the only Filipino among my family/friends/colleagues is who actively trying to live a simple, frugal life because I chose to, and not because I was forced to by economic pressures. It's hard to live decently in the Philippines on an ordinary local's salary. This is why most Filipinos live with their parents until they get married, including the majority of twenty somethings like me, who have benefited from a  middle class upbringing and who have gone to the country's top schools. On an expat's salary, it's possible to live like a king for very little. Where did you stay in the Philippines, VirginiaBob?

It's nice to live in the Philippines if you already have a stash, especially if it's in USD or any other favorable currency. Not so nice if you're a Filipino trying to build a stash from scratch.

Filipinos aren't very mustachian; their savings rates are awful.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/philippines/personal-savings

Forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm in my 2nd of 2 years studying Economics, but doesn't the rate of saving increase go up with the rate of salary? In general of course. Therefore, these very low paid people in the Philippines don't really have money to spare after spending it on necessities such as food and housing? Just a thought I had :P

[rocketpj]

I don't have a lot of interest in retiring outside Canada, though I could see spending some or many years somewhere (my FIL owns a nice little house in Greece that I could spend a lot of time at without being unhappy...)

That said, I like that even with our current relatively small stache (net worth ~280k) we could, if necessary, live comfortable lives in a lot of places in the world, for a long time.  My wife currently loves her career, and I like where I live, so there is no urgency.  But I like knowing that we have some financial resilience already built in.

We couldn't live on our savings here (at least not without moving into a squat in the woods as some of my friends have done or jamming our kids into a tinyhome) but we could easily do so somewhere else.  It is a comforting feeling.

[Jack]

My rough monthly figures for a single person or couple to live a basic life in South East Asia (excluding Singapore) are;

Accommodation (Basic)  $800
Electricity  $100
Food $300
Internet / phone $50
Transport (taxis) $50
Medical insurance  $100.

That does not include any allowance for doing the type of things you may want to do in retirement such as drink a few beers each week, go to movies, play tennis or golf, travel, have a massage.  So I would be adding in another $600 per month for those items.

Very interesting as that could be the cost of living anywhere in the EU (if you converted the numbers to Euros) for example this are the rough costs of living in Munich Germany, one of the most expensive ares in Germany.

Accommodation (Basic)  €800
Electricity  €40
Food 140 -250
Internet / phone €50
Transport (public) €50
Medical insurance  ???

You can live comfortably in Munich on 1500€ a month as a single person.

No kidding! Those numbers aren't far off from what my wife and I live on in Atlanta, including our mortgage (the only real difference is that that budget doesn't include our student loans, my clown-car commute, and medical insurance).

I have to say, I'd be interested in living somewhere like southern / rural Europe, sailing around the Caribbean, or Australia / New Zealand, but I'm not particularly keen on the less politically and economically stable parts of the world.

More likely, though, I'd be perfectly happy to retire in Georgia, either up in the mountains or down on a barrier island.

[expatartist]

I have just racked up 27 years as an expat in South East Asia.

I have been financially independent for a few years but continue to live and work in South East Asia.

I am probably not going to retire in South East Asia but I am a bit surprised at the comment that you could live comfortably in Philippines or anywhere for $150/month.  You could survive on $150/month provided you had somewhere to live (and that was not coming out of your living allowance).

My rough monthly figures for a single person or couple to live a basic life in South East Asia (excluding Singapore) are;

Accommodation (Basic)  $800
Electricity  $100
Food $300
Internet / phone $50
Transport (taxis) $50
Medical insurance  $100.

That does not include any allowance for doing the type of things you may want to do in retirement such as drink a few beers each week, go to movies, play tennis or golf, travel, have a massage.  So I would be adding in another $600 per month for those items.

Then you may want to put aside $300 a month to travel back to your home country every year.

So I think you are looking at $2,300 or so a month.

Unfortunately, I do not have a very Mustachian lifestyle so my monthly figure is more like $8,000.

"Southeast Asia" contains many countries and economies.
The prices you quote for accommodation would be fair for a basic life in a large city like Bangkok, Saigon, or Kuala Lumpur -- 'basic' is of course luxury compared to most locals. Live that life anywhere else in the region, and you can slash that figure in half, or less. I've stayed long-term in Bangkok, Penang, Siem Reap, and Hanoi for a fraction of your figures. Long-term budget travelers in the region routinely spend under 1000/month, all in. This couple rents a 2-bedroom, 3 bathroom 2 storey house in Chiang Mai, and their total bills are just over $1K/month http://tielandtothailand.com/chiang-mai-monthly-bills/
[Edit: their 2013 post includes food, massages, gas, etc for a total of $1200/month http://tielandtothailand.com/chiang-mai-budget-breakdown/]

But, like anywhere else, your budget is up to you. 8K/month may seem to some obscene for SE Asia. But 1K/month might seem like squalor to you. It's all relative, and all possible.

[iwasjustwondering]

Living near my family and friends is more important to me than retiring early.  However, if I could get my parents, siblings and friends to move somewhere with me, I would 100% do it.

+1.  When I was in my 20s, I lived in Europe for three years.  I loved it, and always said that if I could just get my entire extended family to move there, I would stay.  I returned to the States, but ended up living away from my home state for 20+ years, and only moved back recently.  I am so, so happy to be back home.  It would take a lot for me to leave.

[Beric01]

I have just racked up 27 years as an expat in South East Asia.

I have been financially independent for a few years but continue to live and work in South East Asia.

I am probably not going to retire in South East Asia but I am a bit surprised at the comment that you could live comfortably in Philippines or anywhere for $150/month.  You could survive on $150/month provided you had somewhere to live (and that was not coming out of your living allowance).

My rough monthly figures for a single person or couple to live a basic life in South East Asia (excluding Singapore) are;

Accommodation (Basic)  $800
Electricity  $100
Food $300
Internet / phone $50
Transport (taxis) $50
Medical insurance  $100.

That does not include any allowance for doing the type of things you may want to do in retirement such as drink a few beers each week, go to movies, play tennis or golf, travel, have a massage.  So I would be adding in another $600 per month for those items.

Then you may want to put aside $300 a month to travel back to your home country every year.

So I think you are looking at $2,300 or so a month.

Unfortunately, I do not have a very Mustachian lifestyle so my monthly figure is more like $8,000.

"Southeast Asia" contains many countries and economies.
The prices you quote for accommodation would be fair for a basic life in a large city like Bangkok, Saigon, or Kuala Lumpur -- 'basic' is of course luxury compared to most locals. Live that life anywhere else in the region, and you can slash that figure in half, or less. I've stayed long-term in Bangkok, Penang, Siem Reap, and Hanoi for a fraction of your figures. Long-term budget travelers in the region routinely spend under 1000/month, all in. This couple rents a 2-bedroom, 3 bathroom 2 storey house in Chiang Mai, and their total bills are just over $1K/month http://tielandtothailand.com/chiang-mai-monthly-bills/
[Edit: their 2013 post includes food, massages, gas, etc for a total of $1200/month http://tielandtothailand.com/chiang-mai-budget-breakdown/]

But, like anywhere else, your budget is up to you. 8K/month may seem to some obscene for SE Asia. But 1K/month might seem like squalor to you. It's all relative, and all possible.

Great post!

I live comfortably on $1200/month in Silicon Valley (one of the most expensive places in the US), so I can barely dream of what this amount would mean in a place like KL. And I might be considering a place like Malacca, which is even cheaper. I could practically eat out every meal, not that I would do such a thing.

[josstache]

I loved the cheap street eats in southeast Asia, but sometimes there's a reason why cheap food is cheap:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Taiwan_food_scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutter_oil

There are a lot of things we take for granted in countries with extensive environmental and health regulations. Not to say that the most advanced economies don't expose you to garbage in air, water and food, but I'm thinking it's a bit better on average.

[expatartist]

Gutter Oil will make anyone squeamish. After 3 years in China, doubtless I've consumed some. However as far as I know, the rest of Southeast Asia hasn't had scandals similar in scale. The highly organized, unscrupulous gangs who produce products like fake eggs, milk powder laced with plastic, and gutter oil - and who tend to work in league with [food] scientists - are particular to China/Taiwan. The profit motive and lack of concern for strangers isn't quite as paramount elsewhere. You can smell rancid/overcooked oil used in street stalls and avoid them.  But you'll want to avoid eating too much street food anywhere - palm oil is terrible for you. We're not going to get into the man who died in Shanghai a while back from rat poison after eating 'kebabs'.

Food quality remains a concern everywhere, even in the regulated first world. In the Sicilian countryside, butchers selling rabbit meat keep the tails on so you know it's not a skinned cat.

At any rate, street-side/budget eating all depends on your level of health and cultural awareness, adventurousness, and whether you develop a cast-iron stomach. One of my great joys is trying new foods in new environments, whether on the street, or at a so-called emperor's banquet. I prefer eating food in the place it comes from, not watered-down or nostalgic imitations elsewhere.

[limeandpepper]

I loved the cheap street eats in southeast Asia, but sometimes there's a reason why cheap food is cheap:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Taiwan_food_scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutter_oil

Yeah, but Taiwan isn't Southeast Asia. And while it's true that in some cases there is a compromise on regulations and quality, the bigger reason that cheap food in certain parts of the world is cheap is because you're visiting as a foreigner, not living life there as a typical local earning a typical local salary. When I was living and working in Asia - as a local, not an expat - with what I was earning, I certainly didn't always think the local food was incredibly cheap. ;)

At any rate, street-side/budget eating all depends on your level of health and cultural awareness, adventurousness, and whether you develop a cast-iron stomach.

Well said!

[Cookie78]

This is part of my plan (slow travel), but I wouldn't want to do it permanently, and I'd want to be able to afford to come home to visit on occasion, as well as travel to other neighboring places.

I could retire with 500k and spend the first 5-10 years spending VERY little in foreign places while my stash continued to grow on it's own, but I wouldn't want to retire on 100k and feel stuck in a cheap foreign place because that's all I could afford to do.

[Beric01]

This is part of my plan (slow travel), but I wouldn't want to do it permanently, and I'd want to be able to afford to come home to visit on occasion, as well as travel to other neighboring places.

I could retire with 500k and spend the first 5-10 years spending VERY little in foreign places while my stash continued to grow on it's own, but I wouldn't want to retire on 100k and feel stuck in a cheap foreign place because that's all I could afford to do.

Yeah, I don't think retiring on $100K is a good idea either. My plan is to retire in SE Asian on ~$500K, which should give me a very good lifestyle overseas, and a modest one in the US.

[Tabaxus]

This thread is so intriguing, because I'll have about $150k in liquid assets by the end of this year. I joke with spouse about expating and retiring, but they don't see to think it's a very funny joke!

[Punchingat50]

This is part of my plan (slow travel), but I wouldn't want to do it permanently, and I'd want to be able to afford to come home to visit on occasion, as well as travel to other neighboring places.

I could retire with 500k and spend the first 5-10 years spending VERY little in foreign places while my stash continued to grow on it's own, but I wouldn't want to retire on 100k and feel stuck in a cheap foreign place because that's all I could afford to do.

Yeah, I don't think retiring on $100K is a good idea either. My plan is to retire in SE Asian on ~$500K, which should give me a very good lifestyle overseas, and a modest one in the US.

THIS ^^. My number is $650k. Looking at the Philippines, but I'm open to anywhere as long as it's in my budget.

[Beric01]

This is part of my plan (slow travel), but I wouldn't want to do it permanently, and I'd want to be able to afford to come home to visit on occasion, as well as travel to other neighboring places.

I could retire with 500k and spend the first 5-10 years spending VERY little in foreign places while my stash continued to grow on it's own, but I wouldn't want to retire on 100k and feel stuck in a cheap foreign place because that's all I could afford to do.

Yeah, I don't think retiring on $100K is a good idea either. My plan is to retire in SE Asian on ~$500K, which should give me a very good lifestyle overseas, and a modest one in the US.

THIS ^^. My number is $650k. Looking at the Philippines, but I'm open to anywhere as long as it's in my budget.

The Philippines is definitely the budget option! Malaysia is currently #1 on my list, as it's basically the most advanced country in SE Asia (after Singapore), while still being very affordable (particularly outside of the biggest cities). The healthcare is also some of the best in the world, for extremely cheap.

But the Philippines definitely could be a better option. it's even cheaper, and residency comes easier than Malaysia.

One thing I'm thinking seriously about is ultimately getting a citizenship in one of these countries and rescinding my US one. Of course that's a ways down the road,  but as the US both declines and stretches its arms out around the world to grab your money, holding a US citizenship becomes more and more of a negative.

[josstache]

While SE Asia must undoubtedly be cheaper, I think it's underrated how cheap South Korea and Japan can be if you know what you're doing and don't live in the very largest cities.  I intend to FIRE somewhere like Fukuoka, Japan -- metro area with 5.6 million people, excellent food and public transportation, and conveniently located 2-bedroom apartments for like $450 a month.

[Beric01]

While SE Asia must undoubtedly be cheaper, I think it's underrated how cheap South Korea and Japan can be if you know what you're doing and don't live in the very largest cities.  I intend to FIRE somewhere like Fukuoka, Japan -- metro area with 5.6 million people, excellent food and public transportation, and conveniently located 2-bedroom apartments for like $450 a month.

My question is how you *can* retire in Japan? I definitely agree the countryside is cheap, but Japan doesn't pass out permanent residencies the way SE Asia does. Unless you've had a stable job teaching English or something, they're not going to let you stay.

[potm]

I'm originally from Vietnam so I have a natural place to return to where the COL is low and I know the language and like the culture.
It's nice to know that I could retire now on my present stash there but it's not something I seriously consider yet. I'd want to have a large enough stash to live comfortably in Australia before I pull the plug. Living in a low COL area will just help it grow at a fast pace even after retirement.
It's all about giving myself options and freedom because you never know what life will throw at you.