The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: VirginiaBob on November 05, 2014, 01:27:57 PM
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I notice the model here is to save up about $600K plus pay off the mortgage and get involved in some post-retirement rental/business. The question I have to ask you is why do you restrict yourself to your home country? Lot's of other countries are available where you can live off of $150/mo. Has anyone considered this in their FIRE plans? I lived in the Philippines for 6 months with a charity and spent about $150/mo. and I have to say, I didn't really feel like I was left wanting anything. The population was very friendly and seemed to spend thier free time within social gatherings versus spending a lot of money, rode bikes, didn't need hot water (water was already comfortable since the ground temperature was high), ate lots of rice and fish (protein rich). The original Mustachians.
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We are talking about doing this sort of thing or some sort of slow travel for at least a year post retirement. We will have two youngish kids at that time. Our goal would be to travel/experience other cultures while spending less than we would at home (America). DH is not on board with that being a permanent situation, and I tend to agree- family and all. We wouldn't want to be too far from aging parents OR our own kids once they are on their own.
It all sounds good, but will probay be a more temporary 'here and there' situation. Maybe we will 'snowbird' is super cheap places when the market is down and we need to tighten our belts as to not over run our portfolio. :)
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I could do that right now, and on days like today, I kind of want to.
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I notice the model here is to save up about $600K plus pay off the mortgage and get involved in some post-retirement rental/business. The question I have to ask you is why do you restrict yourself to your home country?
(snip)
Your point is a good one - it certainly is possible to retire on far less if you are willing to move to a place with a very low COL
Personally, I want to be close to my family. Obviously I'm not against moving to another country as I've done that already, but I want to see my parents, niece and siblings frequently which I could never do living abroad on so little money. I'm also quite happy here and don't mind that I might have to work 10 whole years to achieve FI.
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Well, substitute Mexico for the Philippines for my wife and I. The ultimate plan is to spend 6 months of the year at our place in the Baja (to stay longer, we would need to get some sort of quasi-Mexican citizenship). Cost of living is probably 40% cheaper than Vancouver is for us currently... not spectacular, but significant. But we will also have significantly more than 600k socked away. Just need to get wifey retired ASAP - and she received some freakin' awesome news at work that should speed this process up.
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I notice the model here is to save up about $600K plus pay off the mortgage and get involved in some post-retirement rental/business. The question I have to ask you is why do you restrict yourself to your home country? Lot's of other countries are available where you can live off of $150/mo. Has anyone considered this in their FIRE plans? I lived in the Philippines for 6 months with a charity and spent about $150/mo. and I have to say, I didn't really feel like I was left wanting anything. The population was very friendly and seemed to spend thier free time within social gatherings versus spending a lot of money, rode bikes, didn't need hot water (water was already comfortable since the ground temperature was high), ate lots of rice and fish (protein rich). The original Mustachians.
I don't want to live in the Philippines. The climate is godawful. None of my family is there. None of my friends are there. It's not somewhere I want to raise my children. I'd rather work and live in the States than be retired in the Philippines. And my husband did not emigrate FROM that part of the world to move BACK there. He'd never go.
Or other country?
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I had thought a lot about doing that and have spent a good amount of time checking out ex-pat websites and books and blog by people who do that. I still may consider it but as a single female I have a few more reservations about where I'd live than say a single guy or married couple. I have travelled enough that I am aware that I may not have the same freedom of movement, living or just being alone places, and safety in some other countries that I have in North America or Europe. Even if the actual town or area I live on is safe and tolerate of a woman alone, it might not be the same travelling around certain countries by bike, motorcycle or car. How I dress and the things I do may also not be acceptable everywhere. So for me it would have to be somewhere that was very tolerant, very open minded, and also safe
+1
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This is exactly my plan, but i will still accumulate the 650k just to leave myself some choices. Funny this comes up now. Love MMM.
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Living near my family and friends is more important to me than retiring early. However, if I could get my parents, siblings and friends to move somewhere with me, I would 100% do it.
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I have lived in other countries and travelled a lot. Moving to another country requires a lot of adjustment: language, culture, money laws, social circles, taxes, employment opportunities, being an expat instead of a member, etc. And they are compounded if there are children or family ties. And there is a risk that you may want to move back to the US in the future and all your doors will be closed.
I think a wiser strategy is finding a low cost of living area where you already live or someplace in the US. For example, move from Boulder to an inexpensive part of Denver. Or move from northern New Jersey to a small city in Florida.
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I currently live in Taiwan and the COL is very low here. I think the key for long-term success (more than a year) in living abroad is to stop thinking of it as living abroad. You need to be able to get out of the mindset of being an ex-pat. You need to think of the move to another country the same as moving to a new city or state. The first few months you still feel like "wow, I live ont he other side of the world." but soon it just becomes your normal. When people from the states ask me what it is like living so far away, it is tough to tell them. It just feels normal.
I also think that if you do not change this mindset, you will continue to live as an outsider. You will become very lonely indeed. if your friends are not around, you need to make new ones and become a part of the new community. In addition to the loneliness, you will likely not take advantage of the low COL as it will be very expensive to try and continue to eat the same foods from home or enjoy the same lifestyle. Just my $0.02
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I don't move to another country for the same reason I don't move to Florida - my children and grandchildren. I can't imagine only seeing them once a year.
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Just today I heard at work that if certain things happen, there may be a request for people to do an expat stint in Asia. It's been a while since the company has done that. When they did it in the way past like 10 years ago I was never interested because I was enjoying my life at home and was also worried about being a single female in Asia (10 years ago thinking).
Although I still think there are some parts of the world where I'd be careful as a single female, the place they would send us to has been visited by so many of my co-workers that I am no longer scared to go there for an extended period of time.
Wouldn't that be funny though? I've been planning FIRE'ing in the next year or two, but if this opportunity presents itself I may just volunteer for it. I'd be able to visit a lot of Asia during an expat stint like that...and most things would be on the company's tab. I'd be kickstarting my FIRE travel plans while still being paid for it.
The only thing that would stop me would be that my parents are elderly and need some help. If my siblings can't handle my departure like that, then I wouldn't consider an expat opportunity.
I don't think I'd ever permanently move away from the US as my family and friends are here.
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I do plan on retiring outside the US. I would like to live for a few years in several different countries and travel around some before I make a choice, and plan on saving $550-600K for a comfortable cushion and increased options. I would like to save more, but I'm more than ready to leave my job. My preference is to live in low COL countries, but I don't know where I will land. I'm doing it more for the adventure than I am for low COL.
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I am definitely considering this. Somewhere in Central America or the Caribbean or maybe S. America. I have spent 6 months living in S. America before and I felt pretty comfortable. My Spanish is strong enough that I can go about daily life with no problems. Although I lived with my boyfriend who was native to the country but we spoke almost exclusively in English, except with his parents who spoke no English.
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I have been an expat in Asia (multiple countries) for more than 7 years now. I love it. I love the tropical climate, the culture, the dynamism, the excitement, the food, just everything about it. I lived back in Europe/US for a year and realized I can't do it anymore. I so missed the vibrancy of Asia. Here every day is an adventure and there are just so many opportunities popping up all the time. In terms of saving money, it's no comparison. Taxes are super low and with expat packages you make an insance amount. Combine this with very low COL and it's great. I have never been homesick, but I left home (meaning the continent, not just the city or state or country) at 18 and have never moved back and probably never will. I am too adventurous.
For anyone considering retirment in this part of the world, I vote a big yes! I know a lot of people from Europe/US who have done this and have a great time here. Even if they fly home 4X a year, their budget is still so much lower than retirement would be in the developed world. I know some people balk at the idea of a 20h flight, but for me, it has become nothing! The whole world is just a flight away and airtravel is getting ever cheaper.
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I so missed the vibrancy of Asia. Here every day is an adventure and there are just so many opportunities popping up all the time. In terms of saving money, it's no comparison. Taxes are super low and with expat packages you make an insance amount. Combine this with very low COL and it's great.
Music to my ears. I really hope my company offers these expat packages. Your costs are even lower than staying at home because they pay for your apartment and living costs (per diem) I believe while on the expat assignment.
Not only would I have a wonderful long term trip to Asia, but I'd be padding the stash even more!
This is all speculation though...
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I love where I live (BC Coast) but might move somewhere else someday. The kids are really happy where we are and enjoy their lives a lot, and since we are too I'm not sure I'd want to live abroad. I could happily keep a little place somewhere, but I also like to go to different places on a regular basic, so I'm not sure I'd want to do that either.
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Living overseas is not something that everyone is willing to do. Even moving to a different state is a big deal for many Americans. As someone who has lived almost half his life outside of the USA it is very probable that I will end up retiring in another country or more likely several countries. The one problem with retiring "on $100K in the Philippines" is the cost of travel. Even if your living expenses for a family are only 4K a year your travel expenses are going to be probably around 8K a year for a family of 4 if you only take 1 trip a year to the states to see family.
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Cost wise have you compared overseas with a low COL in the states? It seems pretty favorable at first glance and wihout the legal ambiguities for propety ownership.
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I notice the model here is to save up about $600K plus pay off the mortgage and get involved in some post-retirement rental/business. The question I have to ask you is why do you restrict yourself to your home country? Lot's of other countries are available where you can live off of $150/mo. Has anyone considered this in their FIRE plans? I lived in the Philippines for 6 months with a charity and spent about $150/mo. and I have to say, I didn't really feel like I was left wanting anything. The population was very friendly and seemed to spend thier free time within social gatherings versus spending a lot of money, rode bikes, didn't need hot water (water was already comfortable since the ground temperature was high), ate lots of rice and fish (protein rich). The original Mustachians.
How interesting that you would call Filipinos "the original Mustachians," as I often feel I am the only Filipino among my family/friends/colleagues is who actively trying to live a simple, frugal life because I chose to, and not because I was forced to by economic pressures. It's hard to live decently in the Philippines on an ordinary local's salary. This is why most Filipinos live with their parents until they get married, including the majority of twenty somethings like me, who have benefited from a middle class upbringing and who have gone to the country's top schools. On an expat's salary, it's possible to live like a king for very little. Where did you stay in the Philippines, VirginiaBob?
It's nice to live in the Philippines if you already have a stash, especially if it's in USD or any other favorable currency. Not so nice if you're a Filipino trying to build a stash from scratch.
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After reading your original post I got to thinking.
My original FIRE plan has me retiring in 10 years time at 43 with at least 1m invested.
During a recent conversation at work I found out that a bloke I have been working with for the last year (in Darwin) grew up in the Philippines as he is from a family of Australian Expats who settled there after working in the area during WW2.
His wife is from the Philippines and they have built a home in the town where his family are from. He fly's home during leave periods through out the year but is planning to retire in at least 2 years time.
Since discovering this I have been bombarding him with questions about COL and general lifestyle questions. Living overseas has become a big part of my planing recently and I have considered living in Thailand, Philippines, Ecuador or Malta and may very well hop between them all. I am also living on my yacht at the moment and may be able to incorporate sailing to each new country in the future though with my lack of experience in O/S cruising I am very wary of pirates in these areas.
Anyway, this post has sent me back to the drawing period as I realise I can realistically retire in 5 years time with $600k invested.
Many things to think about.... thanks for the kick
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I notice the model here is to save up about $600K plus pay off the mortgage and get involved in some post-retirement rental/business. The question I have to ask you is why do you restrict yourself to your home country? Lot's of other countries are available where you can live off of $150/mo. Has anyone considered this in their FIRE plans? I lived in the Philippines for 6 months with a charity and spent about $150/mo. and I have to say, I didn't really feel like I was left wanting anything. The population was very friendly and seemed to spend thier free time within social gatherings versus spending a lot of money, rode bikes, didn't need hot water (water was already comfortable since the ground temperature was high), ate lots of rice and fish (protein rich). The original Mustachians.
Most definitely. Mexico, Costa Rica and Ecuador are all possible options, though it would be part-time (3-6 months/year).
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We also plan on leaving the US when we retire. We plan on going back to where I was born for a few years, to be with my extended family. Then we plan on very slow travel, 6 months to a year in each spot minimum.
While Asia is high on the list, so is a lot of Europe, which is expensive. We are aiming to save in the $600k to $650k range to be able to live in some expensive desitnations as well. Also, you need to remember that although the cost of living is low in places like the Philipines right now, the countries with weaker economies can suffer very badly when the world economy goes sour. Rampant inflation and low access to goods is quite common in some places. You need to have money set aside to deal with the inevitabilites of living in a waeker economy.
We might come back to the US to live, at some point, but I think that we will most likely wait until health care is more accessible and affordable.
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I'm in eastern Canada and we have looked at retiring in South America, mostly Uruguay. But, we would likely travel anywhere as we do enjoy travel and trying new things.
In one article I was looking at it was a small coastal community and one of the cons listed was that there were no american style chain restaurants, somehow, I see this as a pro, there were also only markets to buy food at, no grocery stores, again, I am good with fresh seafood, fruits and veggies. So this is the type of place I would like to retire to, a small town with access to my basic needs, I don't want to be in a large city close to everything.
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I'm from the UK but my husband is from Fiji and we plan to move back there once we have enough stashed. The cost of living is low on his island, we could start a small farm and grow our food or something like that anyway. It will mean that we could retire on £250,000 (US$400,000) or much much less depending on how extravagantly we want to live! I might get the calculator out this weekend and get some scenario planning under way :)
Thanks for the motivation!
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I notice the model here is to save up about $600K plus pay off the mortgage and get involved in some post-retirement rental/business. The question I have to ask you is why do you restrict yourself to your home country? Lot's of other countries are available where you can live off of $150/mo. Has anyone considered this in their FIRE plans? I lived in the Philippines for 6 months with a charity and spent about $150/mo. and I have to say, I didn't really feel like I was left wanting anything. The population was very friendly and seemed to spend thier free time within social gatherings versus spending a lot of money, rode bikes, didn't need hot water (water was already comfortable since the ground temperature was high), ate lots of rice and fish (protein rich). The original Mustachians.
How interesting that you would call Filipinos "the original Mustachians," as I often feel I am the only Filipino among my family/friends/colleagues is who actively trying to live a simple, frugal life because I chose to, and not because I was forced to by economic pressures. It's hard to live decently in the Philippines on an ordinary local's salary. This is why most Filipinos live with their parents until they get married, including the majority of twenty somethings like me, who have benefited from a middle class upbringing and who have gone to the country's top schools. On an expat's salary, it's possible to live like a king for very little. Where did you stay in the Philippines, VirginiaBob?
It's nice to live in the Philippines if you already have a stash, especially if it's in USD or any other favorable currency. Not so nice if you're a Filipino trying to build a stash from scratch.
Filipinos aren't very mustachian; their savings rates are awful.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/philippines/personal-savings
Also, wealth in the Philippines is concentrated in the hands of the ethnic Chinese minority for a lot of reasons, most of which will be apparent to you if you're familiar with Southeast Asian Chinese (I'm married to one). Almost all the country's billionaires are partly or entirely Chinese, and they hold something like 60% of the wealth despite being a sliver of the population. The so-called "bamboo network" of ethnic Chinese who marry each other across national lines, speak the same dialect and do business among themselves is believed to be the largest Asian economic power after Japan. My husband has relatives in Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Cambodia, Canada, the United States and China, and that's pretty common. Everybody in the family, with the exception of me and one of my husband's cousins wives is Chinese and speaks the same Minnan dialect. Once you dis-aggregate wealth by ethnic group, you find the average ethnic Filipino is very poor indeed. It's a sticky and complicated situation.
http://opinion.inquirer.net/31223/ethnic-chinese-dominate-ph-economy
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/amy-chua-philippines-chinese-minority-free-market-democracy-ethnic-hatred (This was written by the Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother lady before she was (in)famous.)
These articles are more in line with the reality I live with every day. I'd like to add that most wealthy Filipinos are either ethnic Chinese who take very great pains to "keep the wealth" within their communities, or Spanish mestizos who inherited huge landholdings that date back to the colonial era.
Funnily enough, I'm mixed Chinese, Spanish and Malay, myself. The ethnic lines aren't always so clear-cut.
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I am American and my wife is Brazilian, and we plan to save up our stash here in the states and then buy a small house/plot in rural Brazil once we reach FI. We started with a COL budget and determined to meet our basic necessities we would need about R$2,500 a month to retire in Brazil (that's in brazilian reals). We would keep our bank accounts and investments in USD, as the brazilian real has historically had problems with inflation and has had wild swings in the exchange rate. In the space of 10 years it's been as low as 3.5 reals to the dollar, and as high as 1.5 to the dollar. Inflation this year has reached as high as 6.5%. Planning on the worst case scenario, we are basing all of our calculations on the highest the real has ever been against the dollar, which is 1.56. So to get R$2,500 that's about $1,602 USD at an exchange rate of 1.56. $1,602 x 12 months in a year = $19,224 per year needed to meet our basic necessities while in Brazil. Let's round that up to $20,000 just for good measure. Using MMM's retirement rule of needing your yearly expenses x 25 that puts our FI number at $500,000 USD.
Now the beauty of this is that this entire calculation is based on the worst case scenario of the dollar's exchange rate being at the lowest it's ever been in history against the real, which is 1.56. Today the exchange rate is a generous 2.55, but over the course of the real's existence the average has been about 2.21. If we are to take the average of 2.21 and apply that to $20,000 USD a year that would translate into R$44,200 a year, which is R$3,683 per month. Well above our needs. During times of favorable exchange rates we would be taking out only what we need, which would be less than 4%, ensuring that our stash continues to grow well into the future.
The beauty of the exchange rate is it's kind of like a wild card money multiplier. Of course there is the possibility that the exchange rate could dip below 1.56, which would throw our plans out of whack. But that's where MMM's concept of flexibility comes in. If that were to happen (and I find it unlikely) we can work (my wife's family owns businesses, so we will have easy employment if necessary), we can grow our own food, we can rent out our house for carnival, and as we become more accustomed to life in Brazil we could probably even lower our expenses. etc etc etc.
We would need to save about an additional $130,000 USD to cover buying a house, car and moving expenses. So all said and done we're talking about around $630,000 USD before we can retire in Brazil.
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I notice the model here is to save up about $600K plus pay off the mortgage and get involved in some post-retirement rental/business. The question I have to ask you is why do you restrict yourself to your home country? Lot's of other countries are available where you can live off of $150/mo. Has anyone considered this in their FIRE plans? I lived in the Philippines for 6 months with a charity and spent about $150/mo. and I have to say, I didn't really feel like I was left wanting anything. The population was very friendly and seemed to spend thier free time within social gatherings versus spending a lot of money, rode bikes, didn't need hot water (water was already comfortable since the ground temperature was high), ate lots of rice and fish (protein rich). The original Mustachians.
How interesting that you would call Filipinos "the original Mustachians," as I often feel I am the only Filipino among my family/friends/colleagues is who actively trying to live a simple, frugal life because I chose to, and not because I was forced to by economic pressures. It's hard to live decently in the Philippines on an ordinary local's salary. This is why most Filipinos live with their parents until they get married, including the majority of twenty somethings like me, who have benefited from a middle class upbringing and who have gone to the country's top schools. On an expat's salary, it's possible to live like a king for very little. Where did you stay in the Philippines, VirginiaBob?
It's nice to live in the Philippines if you already have a stash, especially if it's in USD or any other favorable currency. Not so nice if you're a Filipino trying to build a stash from scratch.
Filipinos aren't very mustachian; their savings rates are awful.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/philippines/personal-savings
Also, wealth in the Philippines is concentrated in the hands of the ethnic Chinese minority for a lot of reasons, most of which will be apparent to you if you're familiar with Southeast Asian Chinese (I'm married to one). Almost all the country's billionaires are partly or entirely Chinese, and they hold something like 60% of the wealth despite being a sliver of the population. The so-called "bamboo network" of ethnic Chinese who marry each other across national lines, speak the same dialect and do business among themselves is believed to be the largest Asian economic power after Japan. My husband has relatives in Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Cambodia, Canada, the United States and China, and that's pretty common. Everybody in the family, with the exception of me and one of my husband's cousins wives is Chinese and speaks the same Minnan dialect. Once you dis-aggregate wealth by ethnic group, you find the average ethnic Filipino is very poor indeed. It's a sticky and complicated situation.
http://opinion.inquirer.net/31223/ethnic-chinese-dominate-ph-economy
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/amy-chua-philippines-chinese-minority-free-market-democracy-ethnic-hatred (This was written by the Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother lady before she was (in)famous.)
These articles are more in line with the reality I live with every day. I'd like to add that most wealthy Filipinos are either ethnic Chinese who take very great pains to "keep the wealth" within their communities, or Spanish mestizos who inherited huge landholdings that date back to the colonial era.
Funnily enough, I'm mixed Chinese, Spanish and Malay, myself. The ethnic lines aren't always so clear-cut.
Yeah, Malaysia decided to "fix" the problem post-colonialism by implementing affirmative action on steroids for the ethnic Malay majority. At least in Malaysia, part of the problem is that the Chinese are much more economically productive than the Malay majority, and have been since colonial times. In the nineteenth century, Chinese rubber harvesters (about the ultimate in low-skilled labor) gathered twice as much latex as the Malay ones when they worked side by side. The work ethic of Chinese Malaysians frequently blows me out of the water; I would not be surprised if they'd end up a market dominant minority in any country.
When my FIL and MIL were teenagers, they both went into accounting because it was one of the only professions open to Chinese people. My MIL's family has been in Malaysia since the mid nineteenth century and they still aren't considered native Malaysians and never will be. As it stands, Malays are legally privileged in university admissions and hiring, have access to better social welfare programs, almost universally pay no income tax, receive houses at lower prices and get lower interest mortgages and a whole bunch of other benefits. It's succeeded in pushing Malays up economically, but the Chinese are getting tired of providing 90% of the tax revenue and funding their own community welfare benefits as well and so they're leaving. In droves. Most of my husband's generation (a couple dozen people in their teens through thirties) are out of the country, and the family money is fleeing even faster. My in-laws are putting as many assets as possible into the hands of American relatives as possible because they don't trust the ruling government.
Malaysian politicians have cottoned onto this and it's become a huge concern. Countries that lose their most economically productive minority tend to become poorer on the whole (Yemen expelled their Jews and then had to ask them to come back because, whoops, they were most of the skilled tradesmen in the country). There's now a lot of discussions about what the country will look like in thirty years, between a high Malay birthrate, low Chinese birthrate, and massive Chinese out-migration and wealth outflows. If current trends continue, Malaysia is going to end up poorer and much more religiously Muslim (another issue entirely) over the coming decades. It may be better for the Malays (there's good evidence that most people are not happier in diverse environments) but it's hard to predict.
Malaysia's always been fascinating to me precisely for those reasons. There is no similar affirmative action program in the Philippines. I can't really say if that's a better or a worse policy.
Returning to the original topic of retiring in the Philippines, I do think foreign retirees will probably find a warmer welcome here than in other Southeast Asian countries. Especially if they're white. And most especially if they're white Americans. Again, that has to do with the dynamics of race, class, money and privilege that are particular to Filipino society.
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Not quite as cheap as the Philippines, but we'll likely spend a lot of time living in Hungary after retirement if I can secure residency for us - I'm half Hungarian, so it's a possibility. Much cheaper than Canada, and a great gateway to anywhere in Europe or Asia we'd want to travel to.
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It's a much simpler decision if you're single, or if you don't have any young kids. I fail on both accounts :)
Don't forget caring for your aging parents.
Most people around here seem to be younger and tend to focus on caring for their children, not their parents. Even if your parents are financially secure, they need increasing attention and assistance as they age.
Extended overseas living is on our bucket list but our parents keep us grounded for now.
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I spent a fair amount of time in the Phillipines when I was in the Marines. Amazing place full of amazing people, very easy to make friends. I also thought the women were beautiful. Local goods are cheap and the food is delicious. Enough westernization that you don't feel totally out of place, and the acceptance of outsiders (at least, young white guys lol) was amazing for an Asian nation. I did not have nearly the same relationship with the people in Japan or Thailand.
That said, I could never live there. The government borders on dysfunctional. Not in the "wahh, Republicans filibustered again" way. In the "police and military are utterly corrupt and incompetent, and they're the trustworthy ones" way.
If I was still single, I would definitely vacation there, maybe even get a contracting gig for a few years. Learn the language. Meet someone. But at the end of that stay my household would be moving back State-side.
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My wife's family is from the Philippines. Her dad had to flee the country a couple years ago due to trumped up charges (and an arrest warrant) brought against him by someone in the city he was living in. Some money exchanged hands between my wife's dad and some people high up in the legal system and all charges against him disappeared, so he went back and has been fine ever since. That's not really shit I want to be dealing with when retired.
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Pardon my ignorance, but how hard is it to establish residency in another country if you have no ties there? I realize that this would vary by country, but I'm wondering in general. Some of the travel blogs I read talk about going on Visa runs and such, but that seems more for vagabond travelers not people looking to establish permanent residency.
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I could live comfortably back in my native city (Eastern fringes of EU) for ca 1,000 $/month plus a paid apartment. All my family still live there so I wouldn't be a stranger. It's not happening in the near term though so who knows how things will look in 15 years. In any case I'm aiming for a passive income at least double that before I even consider leaving my very comfortable life here.
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Pardon my ignorance, but how hard is it to establish residency in another country if you have no ties there? I realize that this would vary by country, but I'm wondering in general. Some of the travel blogs I read talk about going on Visa runs and such, but that seems more for vagabond travelers not people looking to establish permanent residency.
Entirely depends on the country, but generally speaking it is very difficult to gain permanent residency in a place that you have no ties to. Some countries have agreements with each other, so that if you have residency/citizenship in one you can gain residency in the others (like the Euro zone). Some countries have investor visas that allow you to move to that country provided you invest a certain amount in that place (sometimes this has to be in a business, sometimes it can be real-estate). Some countries grant visas based on your professional skill-set. In short it depends entirely on the place, but with no ties it can generally be time-consuming and/or expensive to gain permanent residency. Not impossible though.
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Returning to the original topic of retiring in the Philippines, I do think foreign retirees will probably find a warmer welcome here than in other Southeast Asian countries. Especially if they're white. And most especially if they're white Americans. Again, that has to do with the dynamics of race, class, money and privilege that are particular to Filipino society.
Does speaking Spanish help or hurt in the Philippines as far as being treated warmly? Or the rest of Asia for that matter?
I've used this trick in some countries in order to avoid being tagged as an American tourist....in places where it could hurt you.
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I notice the model here is to save up about $600K plus pay off the mortgage and get involved in some post-retirement rental/business. The question I have to ask you is why do you restrict yourself to your home country? Lot's of other countries are available where you can live off of $150/mo. Has anyone considered this in their FIRE plans? I lived in the Philippines for 6 months with a charity and spent about $150/mo. and I have to say, I didn't really feel like I was left wanting anything. The population was very friendly and seemed to spend thier free time within social gatherings versus spending a lot of money, rode bikes, didn't need hot water (water was already comfortable since the ground temperature was high), ate lots of rice and fish (protein rich). The original Mustachians.
Most definitely. Mexico, Costa Rica and Ecuador are all possible options, though it would be part-time (3-6 months/year).
I'm curious how this saves you money. Do you plan to keep your home and its associated costs in the US for the other 6-9 months of the year? Health insurance costs, etc.?
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I spent a fair amount of time in the Phillipines when I was in the Marines. Amazing place full of amazing people, very easy to make friends. I also thought the women were beautiful. Local goods are cheap and the food is delicious. Enough westernization that you don't feel totally out of place, and the acceptance of outsiders (at least, young white guys lol) was amazing for an Asian nation. I did not have nearly the same relationship with the people in Japan or Thailand.
That said, I could never live there. The government borders on dysfunctional. Not in the "wahh, Republicans filibustered again" way. In the "police and military are utterly corrupt and incompetent, and they're the trustworthy ones" way.
If I was still single, I would definitely vacation there, maybe even get a contracting gig for a few years. Learn the language. Meet someone. But at the end of that stay my household would be moving back State-side.
This.
Anyone considering living elsewhere needs to carefully consider the degree to which their prospective new home nation is functional, free, and democratic. In December, 2010 I traveled to Luxor, Egypt for 10 days. While there, I met a married couple who had moved from England to retire in Luxor. They'd bought a house and were pretty heavily invested in Egypt. They raved about how stable it was thanks to Mubarak's heavy foot.
Three weeks after I came home, the Arab Spring erupted and Egypt was thrown into turmoil from which is has not yet recovered. The economy is in the tank (not that it had far to go). Human rights are non-existent. I often wonder how they're doing. It would be a hard situation to unwind, that's for sure.
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It's a risky choice to retire outside the country where you were born or have lived for a very long time and have a legal status. Even going from England to Southern France or Spain is a considerable risk (financial not safety) let alone to Egypt.
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I dig this idea!
The biggest drawback for me is that my family resides in North America and Europe, so it's a $1000+ RT flight to anywhere in SE Asia. Currently I visit three separate locations annually in the US (but hoping to pair that down by having two of those be every-other-year by having the family there return the visit). Assuming I kept up that pattern (and it wasn't possible for me to consolidate those into one trip), it would be at least $3000 and three long flights every year.
Don't you still have to pay US taxes if you are a US citizen (and a dual citizen w another country) ?
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Pardon my ignorance, but how hard is it to establish residency in another country if you have no ties there? I realize that this would vary by country, but I'm wondering in general. Some of the travel blogs I read talk about going on Visa runs and such, but that seems more for vagabond travelers not people looking to establish permanent residency.
Malaysia has a special visa for retirees. It's hugely popular among Japanese people; some shopping malls in Kuala Lumpur have a whole Japantown section.
http://www.mm2h.gov.my/index.php/en/
My current plan is to use just this.
Right now I'm planning to save $500K (today's dollars) and retire in Malaysia. It will be incredibly easy to live off $10K/year there, so then I have another $10K with which I can use for travel expenses or just keep as a buffer. The only issue is the MYR10K income requirement, which can easily be avoided by just applying while one is still working.
I'd really like to get a full second citizenship in a Southeast Asia country, but that doesn't seem easy. Malaysia only allows one citizenship, for example. Singapore is practically impossible as well.
Any thoughts on meeting a romantic partner while FIRE'd single (in my early 30's) in Southeast Asia? So far my success has not been good as a young male living in Silicon Valley, but I still wouldn't mind changing that. ;)
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Muslims (read: almost all Malays) would be a problem in Malaysia (intermarriage isn't legal and you'd have to convert to Islam and actually practice it to a degree), but a good 25% of the country is of Chinese or Indian descent and they are overwhelmingly not Muslim. I know a lot of Chinese Malaysian ladies who speak fluent English, are university educated professionals, and would be open to dating Americans. Generally the Chinese population clusters in the cities; if you walk around a mall in downtown KL, you'd think the country was Chinese-majority. Nobody in my husband's family has made a peep about the mixed race matches in the current generation. There should be a decent pool of potential partners, though I can not imagine my ILs ever, ever, EVER grasping the concept of FIRE. The Chinese Malaysian work ethic is something to be reckoned with. Why would you ever quit working?!?!?
Yeah, I actually have a Chinese Malaysian co-worker at work, and they seem to be very open and fun people. I'm sure I wouldn't be idle if I lived there - most likely would take up some teaching/part-time/volunteer work or the like.
Thanks for the feedback!
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Pardon my ignorance, but how hard is it to establish residency in another country if you have no ties there? I realize that this would vary by country, but I'm wondering in general. Some of the travel blogs I read talk about going on Visa runs and such, but that seems more for vagabond travelers not people looking to establish permanent residency.
* Yes it's for vagabonds living off savings, and people who are working illegally in these countries. Few countries have laws which account for working online, so if they make $ from their blogs etc it goes under the radar.
I'd really like to get a full second citizenship in a Southeast Asia country, but that doesn't seem
easy.
* It's essentially impossible. Passports in these countries are sometimes granted if you invest millions in the country, or contribute on a grand level culturally.
Any thoughts on meeting a romantic partner while FIRE'd single (in my early 30's) in Southeast Asia?
* You'll have women throwing themselves at you, and will have a quick learning curve. Just be very careful getting married, or entangling yourself financially with anyone without getting to know them - and their family - very very well.
Sorry about the weird glow font, for some reason normal colors aren't showing up on this screen.
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I dig this idea!
Don't you still have to pay US taxes if you are a US citizen (and a dual citizen w another country) ?
I believe you have to pay taxes on any income earned in the US like from pensions, other retirement accounts and investments, and also on some foreign income if you earn any money in there. I also read of something called an expat tax that is levied on US Citizens living abroad but don't know anything about it.
* You only pay taxes on income earned overseas if your income (income earned outside the US) is over ~90K. You would be taxed on your US income from investments there: dividends, pensions, capital gains, etc. A good accountant with experience dealing w/US expats can help you sort this out.
I am also looking into the possibility of living in the EU as My Mom was born and raised in Germany, my Grandparents in Sweden and I was born in the UK (Dad was an American and my Mom was a Naturalized US Citizen when I was born) and I'm a US citizen.
* Are you a UK citizen yet? It's worth looking into, but I don't think they have jus soli like the US does. Does your mom have a passport from Germany as well? You could probably go that route, via your mom or possibly your grandparents.
EU naturalization via residency is easier than UK naturalization. I plan to get an EU passport as part of our pre-retirement process (DH is British). This will provide a hedge against the US's potential repeal of the ACA program. We also enjoy the lifestyle in southern Europe. In the Sicilian towns where we've invested in small-scale real estate, monthly living costs can be as low as 250Euro/month [per person] in a paid-off home.
Not sure if any of that matter in terms of residency in an EU country or not though but worth checking out. Of course all those countries are expensive but maybe not the eastern EU countries.
*Eastern and Southern EU small cities and towns can be very cheap. Friends have bought homes in small town/rural Bulgaria for just a few thousand Euro and live on several thousand Euro per year.
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I'd really like to get a full second citizenship in a Southeast Asia country, but that doesn't seem
easy.
* It's essentially impossible. Passports in these countries are sometimes granted if you invest millions in the country, or contribute on a grand level culturally.
Any thoughts on meeting a romantic partner while FIRE'd single (in my early 30's) in Southeast Asia?
* You'll have women throwing themselves at you, and will have a quick learning curve. Just be very careful getting married, or entangling yourself financially with anyone without getting to know them - and their family - very very well.
Sorry about the weird glow font, for some reason normal colors aren't showing up on this screen.
Thanks for the advice! I guess on the second passport topic, if these women are really throwing themselves at me then citizenship by marriage becomes an option. But Southeast Asia seems like an awesome place culturally. I wish I could retire there now, rather than at (currently) 32 or whereabouts. I'll be old!
On that topic - any thoughts on saving for FIRE as a single person with the potential of marrying later? I assume $20K/year could support a Mustachian family in Southeast Asia almost in luxury.
I can't stress that enough about being careful with dating across cultures. All the successful rich country-poor country matches I know involved couples of similar social class. In fact, most marriages, period, involve people of similar social class. My in-laws are both professionals, as are most people in their family. It was obvious that not only could my husband support himself, but that my in-laws were not going to be coming to us with their hands out after we moved. Their son did get a somewhat upgraded American standard of living with his marriage and relocation, but there's not a massive gulf between the way we live and the way they live, which means there isn't a lot of resentment or greed going on.
Yeah, thanks for the heads up. I'm an extremely frugal person, so I'll have to watch that it won't conflict with a potential partner.
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I am also looking into the possibility of living in the EU as My Mom was born and raised in Germany, my Grandparents in Sweden and I was born in the UK (Dad was an American and my Mom was a Naturalized US Citizen when I was born) and I'm a US citizen. Not sure if any of that matter in terms of residency in an EU country or not though but worth checking out. Of course all those countries are expensive but maybe not the eastern EU countries.
Look into this. Seriously, needing only one passport to have full residency rights to 28 countries (not to mention very easy access to places like Andorra or Switzerland) that are extremely diverse in languages, laws, food, weather, cost of living, customs, yet all maintain a fairly similar set of consistent western values. Don't let David Cameron tell you otherwise, the EU is a fantastic deal.
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Returning to the original topic of retiring in the Philippines, I do think foreign retirees will probably find a warmer welcome here than in other Southeast Asian countries. Especially if they're white. And most especially if they're white Americans. Again, that has to do with the dynamics of race, class, money and privilege that are particular to Filipino society.
Does speaking Spanish help or hurt in the Philippines as far as being treated warmly? Or the rest of Asia for that matter?
I've used this trick in some countries in order to avoid being tagged as an American tourist....in places where it could hurt you.
Sorry, only really old Filipinos still understand Spanish. But pretty much everyone understands basic English.
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Seriously, needing only one passport to have full residency rights to 28 countries (not to mention very easy access to places like Andorra or Switzerland) that are extremely diverse in languages, laws, food, weather, cost of living, customs, yet all maintain a fairly similar set of consistent western values. Don't let David Cameron tell you otherwise, the EU is a fantastic deal.
+1! It really does offer so many options. Just be sure to research the tax laws before establishing residency. In Italy and Spain, there are new laws which tax assets overseas, in addition to local taxes. This can add up quickly.
Thanks for the advice! I guess on the second passport topic, if these women are really throwing themselves at me then citizenship by marriage becomes an option.
* 'Citizenship by marriage' is not guaranteed anywhere, and in much of SE Asia is not an option. You get a long-stay visa, or an easy work permit, that's it. Depends on the country.
But Southeast Asia seems like an awesome place culturally. I wish I could retire there now, rather than at (currently) 32 or whereabouts. I'll be old!
On that topic - any thoughts on saving for FIRE as a single person with the potential of marrying later? I assume $20K/year could support a Mustachian family in Southeast Asia almost in luxury.
* $20K/year would support a family very well for the essentials in much of SE Asia, especially outside capital cities. This is barring educational costs; an international school can easily cost more than that per year. You'd want to be sure that you and your partner - and her family - were 100% on the same page financially. This can be a challenge in places where part of the face-giving appeal of a Western spouse is the $ which is assumed to come along with him/her [/cynicism]
I can't stress that enough about being careful with dating across cultures. All the successful rich country-poor country matches I know involved couples of similar social class. In fact, most marriages, period, involve people of similar social class. My in-laws are both professionals, as are most people in their family. It was obvious that not only could my husband support himself, but that my in-laws were not going to be coming to us with their hands out after we moved. Their son did get a somewhat upgraded American standard of living with his marriage and relocation, but there's not a massive gulf between the way we live and the way they live, which means there isn't a lot of resentment or greed going on.
+1000
Yeah, thanks for the heads up. I'm an extremely frugal person, so I'll have to watch that it won't conflict with a potential partner.
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When I was engaged I looked into naturalization by marriage in Malaysia. It's functionally impossible, particularly for non Muslims. And if you're going to have kids there, remember they will not be able to have dual citizenship. I know a girl with Malaysian, Singaporean and American papers and her parents have to fly her out of the USA on her American passport and hide it, having her enter Malaysia on her Malaysian one. The USA doesn't care if you have both, the Malaysian government does. My husband will be surrendering his Malaysian citizenship when he is naturalized this year.
Most countries in Asia and Africa base citizenship very closely to ethnicity therefore becoming a citizen there without being born into it is virtually unheard off. Countries founded on immigrants obviously do not and neither do most (all?) European countries.
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I'm curious.
When retiring overseas, how does one make withdrawals from your bank in the US?
ATM ?
I'm assuming the bank has your overseas address?
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I'm curious.
When retiring overseas, how does one make withdrawals from your bank in the US?
ATM ?
I'm assuming the bank has your overseas address?
If I were staying somewhere for an extended time, I would probably open a local bank account and transfer money into it in lump sums every few months.
For travel/short stays, a combination of ATMs and credit cards should do the trick.
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Quite obviously you have a local bank account to which you occasionally wire money from your primary source of funding. That's of course assuming that the country you have moved to have a normal banking environment. I don't have any experience with places where that is not true...
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So why not use a US bank with a Global ATM network? One wouldn't need to wire from bank to bank ?
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Because you'd have to pay a fees and convert currencies every time you withdraw money from your local ATM. That will end up being a lot more expensive than wiring money 3-4 times a year. Also occasionally some services could only be paid with locally issued cards.
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I think to retain US citizenship you need to come back to US once every 2 years.
I am not sure where you heard this but it is not true. Why would the US take away your citizenship when the have a tax incentive to let you keep it?
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I happen to know several US citizens here who have lived there less than 20% of their lives and have no real connection to the country. Some of them have decided to relinquish their citizenship for tax reasons, though. In the past US government didn't look closely at such loosely connected people, but in the last 10 years it has changed.
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Because you'd have to pay a fees and convert currencies every time you withdraw money from your local ATM. That will end up being a lot more expensive than wiring money 3-4 times a year. Also occasionally some services could only be paid with locally issued cards.
Nope! Banks will bone you TWICE with a wire transfer: first with a flat fee (typically around $40) and then with the crappy exchange rate they will offer you! ATM's are far and away the easiest and cheapest way to get cash in a foreign country. There are a few banks that have accounts that allow you to withdraw money in a foreign country free of charge, and then they REFUND the fees charged by the foreign bank for using the ATM. Charles Schwab is one of them:
http://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/banking_lending/checking_account (http://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/banking_lending/checking_account)
They don't bone you on the exchange rate either. Schwab uses the exchange rate that is set by VISA each day, which is only a fraction above the actual exchange rate. See here:
http://usa.visa.com/personal/card-benefits/travel/exchange-rate-calculator.jsp (http://usa.visa.com/personal/card-benefits/travel/exchange-rate-calculator.jsp)
There are some details you should be aware of: You have to open the account while you are a US resident, and you have to have a US address on file with the bank. So hopefully a friend/family member wouldn't mind you putting their address on your application if you're not living in the country. With Schwab you have to also open a brokerage account in order to open a checking account, but they don't put a minimum balance on it so throw in a dollar and call it a day. You can even send fee-free wire transfers from the brokerage account, and can transfer money for free between your checking account and the brokerage account. Most ATM's have a daily withdrawal limit, so if you want to buy a house in a foreign country (for example) you should still use a wire transfer for a large amount like that. But for 99% of your daily spending you can keep your money in dollars and pay essentially zero fees for using that money overseas.
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Something similar IS true for green card holders, and I bet that's where the rumor started. But it's definitely not true of US citizens. I could transmit my US citizenship to my child despite giving birth in a foreign country and the child could retain it for their entire lives, even pass it on to THEIR children, without ever setting foot on U.S. soil. (Well at some point you may have to go to an embassy and I think that's technically U.S. soil, but you get my drift...)
Ok so this is not really true either. If only one parent is an American Citizen and the child is born outside of the USA the following must be true in order to get Citizenship "The U.S. citizen parent had been physically present in the U.S. or its territories for a period of at least five years at some time in his or her life prior to the birth, of which at least two years were after his or her 14th birthday. " So it is not possible to pass on your Citizenship without living for some time in the USA if you marry a non american.
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Because you'd have to pay a fees and convert currencies every time you withdraw money from your local ATM. That will end up being a lot more expensive than wiring money 3-4 times a year. Also occasionally some services could only be paid with locally issued cards.
Nope! Banks will bone you TWICE with a wire transfer: first with a flat fee (typically around $40) and then with the crappy exchange rate they will offer you! ATM's are far and away the easiest and cheapest way to get cash in a foreign country. There are a few banks that have accounts that allow you to withdraw money in a foreign country free of charge, and then they REFUND the fees charged by the foreign bank for using the ATM. Charles Schwab is one of them:
http://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/banking_lending/checking_account (http://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/banking_lending/checking_account)
They don't bone you on the exchange rate either. Schwab uses the exchange rate that is set by VISA each day, which is only a fraction above the actual exchange rate. See here:
http://usa.visa.com/personal/card-benefits/travel/exchange-rate-calculator.jsp (http://usa.visa.com/personal/card-benefits/travel/exchange-rate-calculator.jsp)
There are some details you should be aware of: You have to open the account while you are a US resident, and you have to have a US address on file with the bank. So hopefully a friend/family member wouldn't mind you putting their address on your application if you're not living in the country. With Schwab you have to also open a brokerage account in order to open a checking account, but they don't put a minimum balance on it so throw in a dollar and call it a day. You can even send fee-free wire transfers from the brokerage account, and can transfer money for free between your checking account and the brokerage account. Most ATM's have a daily withdrawal limit, so if you want to buy a house in a foreign country (for example) you should still use a wire transfer for a large amount like that. But for 99% of your daily spending you can keep your money in dollars and pay essentially zero fees for using that money overseas.
Crap! Too bad, I will not have a US address while I am overseas. I have to think of some other way.
Anyone have any bright ideas, please chime in.
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Something similar IS true for green card holders, and I bet that's where the rumor started. But it's definitely not true of US citizens. I could transmit my US citizenship to my child despite giving birth in a foreign country and the child could retain it for their entire lives, even pass it on to THEIR children, without ever setting foot on U.S. soil. (Well at some point you may have to go to an embassy and I think that's technically U.S. soil, but you get my drift...)
Ok so this is not really true either. If only one parent is an American Citizen and the child is born outside of the USA the following must be true in order to get Citizenship "The U.S. citizen parent had been physically present in the U.S. or its territories for a period of at least five years at some time in his or her life prior to the birth, of which at least two years were after his or her 14th birthday. " So it is not possible to pass on your Citizenship without living for some time in the USA if you marry a non american.
Huh. I had no idea. I know Canada has some interesting laws about transmitting citizenship and there was a situation where a child with two Canadian parents was born a citizen of nowhere, which is a huge problem.
http://blog.lostcanadian.com/2010/10/vancouver-sun-ireland-saves-canadians.html
Yes it is a very obscure little piece of information that I still remember from high school government class. I guess I remembered it because it meant I would have to go back to the USA for college if I wanted to make sure my children were US citizens.
There are many countries with weird Citizenship laws. South Africa for example does not give citizenship by birth, so even if my next child were to be born in South Africa he/she would not be a South African citizen because we are not South African citizens.
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Something similar IS true for green card holders, and I bet that's where the rumor started. But it's definitely not true of US citizens. I could transmit my US citizenship to my child despite giving birth in a foreign country and the child could retain it for their entire lives, even pass it on to THEIR children, without ever setting foot on U.S. soil. (Well at some point you may have to go to an embassy and I think that's technically U.S. soil, but you get my drift...)
Ok so this is not really true either. If only one parent is an American Citizen and the child is born outside of the USA the following must be true in order to get Citizenship "The U.S. citizen parent had been physically present in the U.S. or its territories for a period of at least five years at some time in his or her life prior to the birth, of which at least two years were after his or her 14th birthday. " So it is not possible to pass on your Citizenship without living for some time in the USA if you marry a non american.
Huh. I had no idea. I know Canada has some interesting laws about transmitting citizenship and there was a situation where a child with two Canadian parents was born a citizen of nowhere, which is a huge problem.
http://blog.lostcanadian.com/2010/10/vancouver-sun-ireland-saves-canadians.html
Yes it is a very obscure little piece of information that I still remember from high school government class. I guess I remembered it because it meant I would have to go back to the USA for college if I wanted to make sure my children were US citizens.
There are many countries with weird Citizenship laws. South Africa for example does not give citizenship by birth, so even if my next child were to be born in South Africa he/she would not be a South African citizen because we are not South African citizens.
That actually makes sense to me. If a Japanese woman on vacation in Finland gives birth there, everyone back in Japan will recognize the child as Japanese, and the child in question has no real meaningful connection to Finland beyond an accident of timing. It seems weird to me that he'd be automatically recognized as Finnish as a result. I can see granting jus soli citizenship to children born with one citizen parent or even one permanent resident parent, but it seems the current system is just begging for birth tourism.
I'm curious: did you come back to the U.S. for college?
Yes I came back to the USA for college, married an Argentinian and got her citizenship before we went back to Africa. Both my girls were also born in the USA (we traveled back for their births) so in the end it didn't matter, but the next one likely will not be born in the USA.
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That makes perfect sense. You don't really want citizens which have zero connections to your country.
Actually US is one of the very few countries (ca 30 mostly in Americas) which give it's citizenship to everyone who is born there. This sometimes leads to very unusual situations in our increasingly connected world. For example, I know a woman who was born in US to Dutch parents then left at age six and grew up, went to university in Germany. Now she lives in Switzerland and has two daughters born here with a man from Venezuela. Her daughters are Dutch citizens though despite the fact that their mother has never lived in Netherlands and they don't speak any Dutch (English and Spanish at home, German at school and with friends). It doesn't matter much and getting Swiss citizenship will be easy when they are adults, but still it's a bit weird.
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I'm curious.
When retiring overseas, how does one make withdrawals from your bank in the US?
ATM ?
I'm assuming the bank has your overseas address?
This is very simple and completely fee free. Just open a bank account with the same global bank in both countries, i.e. Citibank, HSBC come to mind. Then you make free transfers between your accounts and you can use the ATM card at any of their ATMs globally fee free.
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I'm curious.
When retiring overseas, how does one make withdrawals from your bank in the US?
ATM ?
I'm assuming the bank has your overseas address?
This is very simple and completely fee free. Just open a bank account with the same global bank in both countries, i.e. Citibank, HSBC come to mind. Then you make free transfers between your accounts and you can use the ATM card at any of their ATMs globally fee free.
Great! Have you personally tried this? What are these international bank accounts called? Those that span across and accessible between countries? Say HSBC for instance, there are Advance and Premier accounts but they are not free.
Could you kindly elaborate?
I've tried doing this in the past (not HSBC but with Bank of America and Barclays, both with international presence with local branches) but accounts from 1 country are not accessible by another and is treated as a standard wire transfer.
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Don't you still have to pay US taxes if you are a US citizen (and a dual citizen w another country) ?
I believe you have to pay taxes on any income earned in the US like from pensions, other retirement accounts and investments, and also on some foreign income if you earn any money in there. I also read of something called an expat tax that is levied on US Citizens living abroad but don't know anything about it.
* You only pay taxes on income earned overseas if your income (income earned outside the US) is over ~90K. You would be taxed on your US income from investments there: dividends, pensions, capital gains, etc. A good accountant with experience dealing w/US expats can help you sort this out.
You always have to file, as well as disclose any accounts you have. Failure to do so will result in penalties of ridiculous proportion. Financial institutions that don't report the accounts of all US persons who have accounts with them face punitive taxes on any transactions involving the US. This is all part of FATCA, which has caused a lot of grief for a lot of expats, and is driving the record levels of renunciations that have been seen over the last couple of years. It's gotten so bad they've increased the fee to renounce from $450 to $2350, but it doesn't seem to be slowing it down any.
I just got my Certificate of Loss of Nationality month or so ago. I was born in the US, but have lived in Canada since before I can remember, and never really considered myself a US citizen. Didn't realize I was supposed to be filing US taxes every year, whether or not I had income that would be taxed under the Canada-US tax treaty. I imagine it would be worse in places that don't have the close economic relationship that Canada does with the US. Definitely something to be aware of, if you're planning to leave the US and drop residency there.
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I have just racked up 27 years as an expat in South East Asia.
I have been financially independent for a few years but continue to live and work in South East Asia.
I am probably not going to retire in South East Asia but I am a bit surprised at the comment that you could live comfortably in Philippines or anywhere for $150/month. You could survive on $150/month provided you had somewhere to live (and that was not coming out of your living allowance).
My rough monthly figures for a single person or couple to live a basic life in South East Asia (excluding Singapore) are;
Accommodation (Basic) $800
Electricity $100
Food $300
Internet / phone $50
Transport (taxis) $50
Medical insurance $100.
That does not include any allowance for doing the type of things you may want to do in retirement such as drink a few beers each week, go to movies, play tennis or golf, travel, have a massage. So I would be adding in another $600 per month for those items.
Then you may want to put aside $300 a month to travel back to your home country every year.
So I think you are looking at $2,300 or so a month.
Unfortunately, I do not have a very Mustachian lifestyle so my monthly figure is more like $8,000.
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I'm curious.
When retiring overseas, how does one make withdrawals from your bank in the US?
ATM ?
I'm assuming the bank has your overseas address?
This is very simple and completely fee free. Just open a bank account with the same global bank in both countries, i.e. Citibank, HSBC come to mind. Then you make free transfers between your accounts and you can use the ATM card at any of their ATMs globally fee free.
Great! Have you personally tried this? What are these international bank accounts called? Those that span across and accessible between countries? Say HSBC for instance, there are Advance and Premier accounts but they are not free.
Could you kindly elaborate?
I've tried doing this in the past (not HSBC but with Bank of America and Barclays, both with international presence with local branches) but accounts from 1 country are not accessible by another and is treated as a standard wire transfer.
I can't really speak for HSBC anymore because I haven't had an account with them in quite a while now. I have Citibank accounts in 5 countries (3 continents, 4 currencies). There is the Citibank Global Transfer system which is free between your Citibank accounts. You can link all of your Citibank accounts as well. Of course you get an ATM card for each of your bank accounts which you can use anywhere in the world for free at all Citibank ATMs (and some other ATMs depending on their alliances in certain countries which you would need to check on a country by country basis). For ATM withdrawals from a Citibank ATM in a different currency than your account currency, there is no fee as well and the exchange rate is the spot rate. For transfer from one currency to the other between your Citibank accounts, the exchange rate is pretty much the spot rate of the day, there is only a very minimal spread and of course there is no fee for transferring between your Citibank accounts. I am also a Citigold member which is what you become when you have at least 50k (I think it's 50k) deposited/invested with them somehow (not sure about the exact requirements, may also vary by country, but it always transferred for me too all the countries where I opened an account, it's not like I have to have 50k in each account to be a Citigold member). There is also no monthly fee for the accounts at all.
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I was fortunate enough to do a short term gig in the Philippines with a non-profit. It is an amazing place. I had several interesting interactions with ex-pats. Several of the older American men in our outfit had been there, on assignment for a year or two, and had zero interest in returning to life in the US. I also met a retired postal worker who had zero retirement savings, yet was living like a king. He had a walled compound with a small home, a detached apartment for the help, gardens, a nice car, a housekeeper, driver and gardener. All of this was easily covered by his postal pension.
OTOH, we have an acquaintance who is living a literal hell on earth with his S.E Asia mail order bride. The guy is a completely free of any backbone, and the wife quickly positioned herself as the next Kardashian. She got a visa for her mother, and moved her in. They currently are building a literal estate on six acres of expensive dirt in the NYC area, and it has been under construction for half a decade. The taxes on the unfinished mess are north of $30K and he will be well into the multi-millions in costs, when and if, the queen declares it done. I will be shocked if the guy doesn't swallow a pistol, or drop dead from the stress in the next few years.
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I notice the model here is to save up about $600K plus pay off the mortgage and get involved in some post-retirement rental/business. The question I have to ask you is why do you restrict yourself to your home country? Lot's of other countries are available where you can live off of $150/mo. Has anyone considered this in their FIRE plans? I lived in the Philippines for 6 months with a charity and spent about $150/mo. and I have to say, I didn't really feel like I was left wanting anything. The population was very friendly and seemed to spend thier free time within social gatherings versus spending a lot of money, rode bikes, didn't need hot water (water was already comfortable since the ground temperature was high), ate lots of rice and fish (protein rich). The original Mustachians.
I don't want to live in the Philippines. The climate is godawful. None of my family is there. None of my friends are there. It's not somewhere I want to raise my children. I'd rather work and live in the States than be retired in the Philippines. And my husband did not emigrate FROM that part of the world to move BACK there. He'd never go.
Haha the other day I was talking to my wife about where we could live in the future. Her parents live in Beijing and she was saying oh it's so expensive there etc. and I was like well we could live in Mudanjiang (where she's from) and she said "I didn't leave Mudanjiang just to drag my ass back there 20 years later!!" and I was like "yikes."
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I'm curious.
When retiring overseas, how does one make withdrawals from your bank in the US?
ATM ?
I'm assuming the bank has your overseas address?
This is very simple and completely fee free. Just open a bank account with the same global bank in both countries, i.e. Citibank, HSBC come to mind. Then you make free transfers between your accounts and you can use the ATM card at any of their ATMs globally fee free.
Great! Have you personally tried this? What are these international bank accounts called? Those that span across and accessible between countries? Say HSBC for instance, there are Advance and Premier accounts but they are not free.
Could you kindly elaborate?
I've tried doing this in the past (not HSBC but with Bank of America and Barclays, both with international presence with local branches) but accounts from 1 country are not accessible by another and is treated as a standard wire transfer.
I can't really speak for HSBC anymore because I haven't had an account with them in quite a while now. I have Citibank accounts in 5 countries (3 continents, 4 currencies). There is the Citibank Global Transfer system which is free between your Citibank accounts. You can link all of your Citibank accounts as well. Of course you get an ATM card for each of your bank accounts which you can use anywhere in the world for free at all Citibank ATMs (and some other ATMs depending on their alliances in certain countries which you would need to check on a country by country basis). For ATM withdrawals from a Citibank ATM in a different currency than your account currency, there is no fee as well and the exchange rate is the spot rate. For transfer from one currency to the other between your Citibank accounts, the exchange rate is pretty much the spot rate of the day, there is only a very minimal spread and of course there is no fee for transferring between your Citibank accounts. I am also a Citigold member which is what you become when you have at least 50k (I think it's 50k) deposited/invested with them somehow (not sure about the exact requirements, may also vary by country, but it always transferred for me too all the countries where I opened an account, it's not like I have to have 50k in each account to be a Citigold member). There is also no monthly fee for the accounts at all.
Interesting! I just went to the citibank site and it requires a current US address with at least US permanent residency. I went to another citibank site in another country and that too required a local address and be at least a permanent resident. I went to a 3rd and that had the same requirements. Looks like I need a minimum $50k to avoid the fees and the above local residency stipulations. Is there a trick to this? Aside from the $50k, how can I open up these local accounts with 1 local/residential address and status at any 1 time? Is there some trick to this?
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This is very individual. I know a Colombian guy who would love to move back to Columbia once he and his Swiss wife are retired in 5-10 years. Wife is not so wild about that idea so maybe it doesn't work out after all.
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You can live very cheaply in the USA in the climate zone you prefer (hot, cold, rain, sun) so I do not see a reason to trade this for a unstable regime.
At low income levels in the USA there are a lot of freebies, and if you are in an area like the south you can easily live on much less than a $600k nest egg.
My parents rent a 3 bd townhouse on a golf course for $500 a month in the south. A local country food restaurant (chicken, fried okra, mashed potatoes, biscuit, sweet iced tea) is $4 a person for a meal. Ok, well you would need the free ACA healthcare if you partake of too much of that :-)
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I'm curious.
When retiring overseas, how does one make withdrawals from your bank in the US?
ATM ?
I'm assuming the bank has your overseas address?
This is very simple and completely fee free. Just open a bank account with the same global bank in both countries, i.e. Citibank, HSBC come to mind. Then you make free transfers between your accounts and you can use the ATM card at any of their ATMs globally fee free.
Great! Have you personally tried this? What are these international bank accounts called? Those that span across and accessible between countries? Say HSBC for instance, there are Advance and Premier accounts but they are not free.
Could you kindly elaborate?
I've tried doing this in the past (not HSBC but with Bank of America and Barclays, both with international presence with local branches) but accounts from 1 country are not accessible by another and is treated as a standard wire transfer.
I can't really speak for HSBC anymore because I haven't had an account with them in quite a while now. I have Citibank accounts in 5 countries (3 continents, 4 currencies). There is the Citibank Global Transfer system which is free between your Citibank accounts. You can link all of your Citibank accounts as well. Of course you get an ATM card for each of your bank accounts which you can use anywhere in the world for free at all Citibank ATMs (and some other ATMs depending on their alliances in certain countries which you would need to check on a country by country basis). For ATM withdrawals from a Citibank ATM in a different currency than your account currency, there is no fee as well and the exchange rate is the spot rate. For transfer from one currency to the other between your Citibank accounts, the exchange rate is pretty much the spot rate of the day, there is only a very minimal spread and of course there is no fee for transferring between your Citibank accounts. I am also a Citigold member which is what you become when you have at least 50k (I think it's 50k) deposited/invested with them somehow (not sure about the exact requirements, may also vary by country, but it always transferred for me too all the countries where I opened an account, it's not like I have to have 50k in each account to be a Citigold member). There is also no monthly fee for the accounts at all.
Interesting! I just went to the citibank site and it requires a current US address with at least US permanent residency. I went to another citibank site in another country and that too required a local address and be at least a permanent resident. I went to a 3rd and that had the same requirements. Looks like I need a minimum $50k to avoid the fees and the above local residency stipulations. Is there a trick to this? Aside from the $50k, how can I open up these local accounts with 1 local/residential address and status at any 1 time? Is there some trick to this?
Oh, well, not as far as I know. I have those accounts because I used to live in those places at some point...and never closed them when I left (Citibank knows that I don't live there anymore, but that hasn't bothered them at all). But to initially open the account...well yes...I guess you do have to show up at a bank in that country and open the account. I have not done it any other way (well, I have, there are some online banks that allow you to just open an account with them by emailing them certain docs and you don't have to be a resident or anything). I was meaning this more for someone who is retiring overseas: assume you move from the US to Thailand. So you have a US Citibank account. Then since you live in Thailand, you just go to Citibank there, open an account and voila, you can transfer around money for free to your heart's content.
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Any thoughts on meeting a romantic partner while FIRE'd single (in my early 30's) in Southeast Asia? So far my success has not been good as a young male living in Silicon Valley, but I still wouldn't mind changing that. ;)
If I was a Magic 8-Ball right now, I'd say "Concentrate and ask again."
SE Asia is heaven for a single guy with a little bit of money. Many beautiful young women who will be very interested in you, and communication will be quite a bit easier than in other parts of the world since most college age people speak some English. However, long term relationships, especially looking towards marriage, have a number of serious pitfalls you need to try to avoid.
The first is finacial. It can be expected of you, as a monied individual (especially by local standards), to contribute to the family financially. This is because it is the norm in much of SE Asia for children to support their parents in their old age, with the most being required from the most successful child. Your hypothetical wife, being married to a rich dude, will be deemed the most successful. This is one of the reasons that it's important to try to stick to your socio-economic class when you date in a foreign country.
However, the type of woman that you would be trying to date: Single, professional, well educated and from a good family... is going to be much harder to find, and might be pressured by her family into not being in a relationship with you.
My sincere advice, from someone who was also single in that part of the world, is to have fun and date... but don't get your hopes up about finding a wife. There will be many women willing to marry you, but most of them aren't the type of person you will be happily married to several years later.
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Any thoughts on meeting a romantic partner while FIRE'd single (in my early 30's) in Southeast Asia? So far my success has not been good as a young male living in Silicon Valley, but I still wouldn't mind changing that. ;)
If I was a Magic 8-Ball right now, I'd say "Concentrate and ask again."
SE Asia is heaven for a single guy with a little bit of money. Many beautiful young women who will be very interested in you, and communication will be quite a bit easier than in other parts of the world since most college age people speak some English. However, long term relationships, especially looking towards marriage, have a number of serious pitfalls you need to try to avoid.
The first is finacial. It can be expected of you, as a monied individual (especially by local standards), to contribute to the family financially. This is because it is the norm in much of SE Asia for children to support their parents in their old age, with the most being required from the most successful child. Your hypothetical wife, being married to a rich dude, will be deemed the most successful. This is one of the reasons that it's important to try to stick to your socio-economic class when you date in a foreign country.
However, the type of woman that you would be trying to date: Single, professional, well educated and from a good family... is going to be much harder to find, and might be pressured by her family into not being in a relationship with you.
My sincere advice, from someone who was also single in that part of the world, is to have fun and date... but don't get your hopes up about finding a wife. There will be many women willing to marry you, but most of them aren't the type of person you will be happily married to several years later.
Thanks! I actually started a thread (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/personals/retiring-single-in-southeast-asia-to-find-a-partner/msg450800/?boardseen#new) where I went more into detail. Note that I'm now taking some concrete steps in the short term on self-improvement, so much has changed from my OP.
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My brother married a woman from SE Asia. After they consolidated all of their student loans and she had a green card - it turned out she was 10 years older than she claimed, and shortly thereafter she vanished, leaving him the student loans, joint credit card debt, etc.
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I don't think I would do it full-time but this sounds like a good back-up plan. If I was FIRE'd and we had another period like 08-09 where you really want to cut down on costs, this would be an option. You could just buy a one-way ticket to south-east asian country of your choice and live there cheaply until the markets recover. I am not sure about living off of $200-300 / month, that sounds really tight, but I have heard you can live quite nicely and travel for 7-800 if you are willing to make a few sacrifices.
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The reason I restrict retirement to Western countries is because I am energized by Western institutions. I want a public library with a collection of at least 250,000 items. No, e-readers are paltry for for heavily illustrated books. I want reliable internet service. I want to live in a place with interesting architecture, with a high sense of history and preservation of that. I want movie theaters, dramatic theater groups, art galleries, speakers' series presentations, etc.
I also NEED a cold weather gardening place, I have no interest in growing only tropical plants and all of those warm-weather places are limited to tropicals. See my name here? I grow iris and lilies, and lilies need vernalization (cold winter.) Besides, the warm weather places have cockroaches the size of my hand, ugh.
I have toyed with the idea of Bulgaria as a retirement place because it has some Western attributes and probably has the right gardening weather. It's an interesting area and has great architecture, and it has great proximity to more expensive parts of Europe where I would might live if I were rich.
tl;dr: don't like warm weather places.
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Lot's of other countries are available where you can live off of $150/mo. Has anyone considered this in their FIRE plans? I lived in the Philippines for 6 months with a charity and spent about $150/mo. and I have to say, I didn't really feel like I was left wanting anything.
I am guessing that due to the charity work, some of your accommodation/living costs were subsidized? Or maybe this was a long time ago when things cost less? I would be interested in getting a breakdown of your $150/month expenditure.
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The reason I restrict retirement to Western countries is because I am energized by Western institutions. I want a public library with a collection of at least 250,000 items. No, e-readers are paltry for for heavily illustrated books. I want reliable internet service. I want to live in a place with interesting architecture, with a high sense of history and preservation of that. I want movie theaters, dramatic theater groups, art galleries, speakers' series presentations, etc.
I also NEED a cold weather gardening place, I have no interest in growing only tropical plants and all of those warm-weather places are limited to tropicals. See my name here? I grow iris and lilies, and lilies need vernalization (cold winter.) Besides, the warm weather places have cockroaches the size of my hand, ugh.
I have toyed with the idea of Bulgaria as a retirement place because it has some Western attributes and probably has the right gardening weather. It's an interesting area and has great architecture, and it has great proximity to more expensive parts of Europe where I would might live if I were rich.
tl;dr: don't like warm weather places.
What about southern South America?
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My rough monthly figures for a single person or couple to live a basic life in South East Asia (excluding Singapore) are;
Accommodation (Basic) $800
Electricity $100
Food $300
Internet / phone $50
Transport (taxis) $50
Medical insurance $100.
That does not include any allowance for doing the type of things you may want to do in retirement such as drink a few beers each week, go to movies, play tennis or golf, travel, have a massage. So I would be adding in another $600 per month for those items.
Very interesting as that could be the cost of living anywhere in the EU (if you converted the numbers to Euros) for example this are the rough costs of living in Munich Germany, one of the most expensive ares in Germany.
Accommodation (Basic) €800
Electricity €40
Food 140 -250
Internet / phone €50
Transport (public) €50
Medical insurance ???
You can live comfortably in Munich on 1500€ a month as a single person.
Maybe as everyone is young but what about health insurance? I've had 4 knee operations and facing an operation for prostate cancer now
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One could retire in Missouri on 400 a month with a 40k paid off house. So what is that, 150k net savings? Water 50, heat 80, tax/ins 60, food 75, phone 10, misc 100
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I notice the model here is to save up about $600K plus pay off the mortgage and get involved in some post-retirement rental/business. The question I have to ask you is why do you restrict yourself to your home country? Lot's of other countries are available where you can live off of $150/mo. Has anyone considered this in their FIRE plans? I lived in the Philippines for 6 months with a charity and spent about $150/mo. and I have to say, I didn't really feel like I was left wanting anything. The population was very friendly and seemed to spend thier free time within social gatherings versus spending a lot of money, rode bikes, didn't need hot water (water was already comfortable since the ground temperature was high), ate lots of rice and fish (protein rich). The original Mustachians.
How interesting that you would call Filipinos "the original Mustachians," as I often feel I am the only Filipino among my family/friends/colleagues is who actively trying to live a simple, frugal life because I chose to, and not because I was forced to by economic pressures. It's hard to live decently in the Philippines on an ordinary local's salary. This is why most Filipinos live with their parents until they get married, including the majority of twenty somethings like me, who have benefited from a middle class upbringing and who have gone to the country's top schools. On an expat's salary, it's possible to live like a king for very little. Where did you stay in the Philippines, VirginiaBob?
It's nice to live in the Philippines if you already have a stash, especially if it's in USD or any other favorable currency. Not so nice if you're a Filipino trying to build a stash from scratch.
Filipinos aren't very mustachian; their savings rates are awful.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/philippines/personal-savings
Forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm in my 2nd of 2 years studying Economics, but doesn't the rate of saving increase go up with the rate of salary? In general of course. Therefore, these very low paid people in the Philippines don't really have money to spare after spending it on necessities such as food and housing? Just a thought I had :P
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I don't have a lot of interest in retiring outside Canada, though I could see spending some or many years somewhere (my FIL owns a nice little house in Greece that I could spend a lot of time at without being unhappy...)
That said, I like that even with our current relatively small stache (net worth ~280k) we could, if necessary, live comfortable lives in a lot of places in the world, for a long time. My wife currently loves her career, and I like where I live, so there is no urgency. But I like knowing that we have some financial resilience already built in.
We couldn't live on our savings here (at least not without moving into a squat in the woods as some of my friends have done or jamming our kids into a tinyhome) but we could easily do so somewhere else. It is a comforting feeling.
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My rough monthly figures for a single person or couple to live a basic life in South East Asia (excluding Singapore) are;
Accommodation (Basic) $800
Electricity $100
Food $300
Internet / phone $50
Transport (taxis) $50
Medical insurance $100.
That does not include any allowance for doing the type of things you may want to do in retirement such as drink a few beers each week, go to movies, play tennis or golf, travel, have a massage. So I would be adding in another $600 per month for those items.
Very interesting as that could be the cost of living anywhere in the EU (if you converted the numbers to Euros) for example this are the rough costs of living in Munich Germany, one of the most expensive ares in Germany.
Accommodation (Basic) €800
Electricity €40
Food 140 -250
Internet / phone €50
Transport (public) €50
Medical insurance ???
You can live comfortably in Munich on 1500€ a month as a single person.
No kidding! Those numbers aren't far off from what my wife and I live on in Atlanta, including our mortgage (the only real difference is that that budget doesn't include our student loans, my clown-car commute, and medical insurance).
I have to say, I'd be interested in living somewhere like southern / rural Europe, sailing around the Caribbean, or Australia / New Zealand, but I'm not particularly keen on the less politically and economically stable parts of the world.
More likely, though, I'd be perfectly happy to retire in Georgia, either up in the mountains or down on a barrier island.
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I have just racked up 27 years as an expat in South East Asia.
I have been financially independent for a few years but continue to live and work in South East Asia.
I am probably not going to retire in South East Asia but I am a bit surprised at the comment that you could live comfortably in Philippines or anywhere for $150/month. You could survive on $150/month provided you had somewhere to live (and that was not coming out of your living allowance).
My rough monthly figures for a single person or couple to live a basic life in South East Asia (excluding Singapore) are;
Accommodation (Basic) $800
Electricity $100
Food $300
Internet / phone $50
Transport (taxis) $50
Medical insurance $100.
That does not include any allowance for doing the type of things you may want to do in retirement such as drink a few beers each week, go to movies, play tennis or golf, travel, have a massage. So I would be adding in another $600 per month for those items.
Then you may want to put aside $300 a month to travel back to your home country every year.
So I think you are looking at $2,300 or so a month.
Unfortunately, I do not have a very Mustachian lifestyle so my monthly figure is more like $8,000.
"Southeast Asia" contains many countries and economies.
The prices you quote for accommodation would be fair for a basic life in a large city like Bangkok, Saigon, or Kuala Lumpur -- 'basic' is of course luxury compared to most locals. Live that life anywhere else in the region, and you can slash that figure in half, or less. I've stayed long-term in Bangkok, Penang, Siem Reap, and Hanoi for a fraction of your figures. Long-term budget travelers in the region routinely spend under 1000/month, all in. This couple rents a 2-bedroom, 3 bathroom 2 storey house in Chiang Mai, and their total bills are just over $1K/month http://tielandtothailand.com/chiang-mai-monthly-bills/
[Edit: their 2013 post includes food, massages, gas, etc for a total of $1200/month http://tielandtothailand.com/chiang-mai-budget-breakdown/]
But, like anywhere else, your budget is up to you. 8K/month may seem to some obscene for SE Asia. But 1K/month might seem like squalor to you. It's all relative, and all possible.
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Living near my family and friends is more important to me than retiring early. However, if I could get my parents, siblings and friends to move somewhere with me, I would 100% do it.
+1. When I was in my 20s, I lived in Europe for three years. I loved it, and always said that if I could just get my entire extended family to move there, I would stay. I returned to the States, but ended up living away from my home state for 20+ years, and only moved back recently. I am so, so happy to be back home. It would take a lot for me to leave.
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I have just racked up 27 years as an expat in South East Asia.
I have been financially independent for a few years but continue to live and work in South East Asia.
I am probably not going to retire in South East Asia but I am a bit surprised at the comment that you could live comfortably in Philippines or anywhere for $150/month. You could survive on $150/month provided you had somewhere to live (and that was not coming out of your living allowance).
My rough monthly figures for a single person or couple to live a basic life in South East Asia (excluding Singapore) are;
Accommodation (Basic) $800
Electricity $100
Food $300
Internet / phone $50
Transport (taxis) $50
Medical insurance $100.
That does not include any allowance for doing the type of things you may want to do in retirement such as drink a few beers each week, go to movies, play tennis or golf, travel, have a massage. So I would be adding in another $600 per month for those items.
Then you may want to put aside $300 a month to travel back to your home country every year.
So I think you are looking at $2,300 or so a month.
Unfortunately, I do not have a very Mustachian lifestyle so my monthly figure is more like $8,000.
"Southeast Asia" contains many countries and economies.
The prices you quote for accommodation would be fair for a basic life in a large city like Bangkok, Saigon, or Kuala Lumpur -- 'basic' is of course luxury compared to most locals. Live that life anywhere else in the region, and you can slash that figure in half, or less. I've stayed long-term in Bangkok, Penang, Siem Reap, and Hanoi for a fraction of your figures. Long-term budget travelers in the region routinely spend under 1000/month, all in. This couple rents a 2-bedroom, 3 bathroom 2 storey house in Chiang Mai, and their total bills are just over $1K/month http://tielandtothailand.com/chiang-mai-monthly-bills/
[Edit: their 2013 post includes food, massages, gas, etc for a total of $1200/month http://tielandtothailand.com/chiang-mai-budget-breakdown/]
But, like anywhere else, your budget is up to you. 8K/month may seem to some obscene for SE Asia. But 1K/month might seem like squalor to you. It's all relative, and all possible.
Great post!
I live comfortably on $1200/month in Silicon Valley (one of the most expensive places in the US), so I can barely dream of what this amount would mean in a place like KL. And I might be considering a place like Malacca, which is even cheaper. I could practically eat out every meal, not that I would do such a thing.
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I loved the cheap street eats in southeast Asia, but sometimes there's a reason why cheap food is cheap:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Taiwan_food_scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutter_oil
There are a lot of things we take for granted in countries with extensive environmental and health regulations. Not to say that the most advanced economies don't expose you to garbage in air, water and food, but I'm thinking it's a bit better on average.
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Gutter Oil will make anyone squeamish. After 3 years in China, doubtless I've consumed some. However as far as I know, the rest of Southeast Asia hasn't had scandals similar in scale. The highly organized, unscrupulous gangs who produce products like fake eggs, milk powder laced with plastic, and gutter oil - and who tend to work in league with [food] scientists - are particular to China/Taiwan. The profit motive and lack of concern for strangers isn't quite as paramount elsewhere. You can smell rancid/overcooked oil used in street stalls and avoid them. But you'll want to avoid eating too much street food anywhere - palm oil is terrible for you. We're not going to get into the man who died in Shanghai a while back from rat poison after eating 'kebabs'.
Food quality remains a concern everywhere, even in the regulated first world. In the Sicilian countryside, butchers selling rabbit meat keep the tails on so you know it's not a skinned cat.
At any rate, street-side/budget eating all depends on your level of health and cultural awareness, adventurousness, and whether you develop a cast-iron stomach. One of my great joys is trying new foods in new environments, whether on the street, or at a so-called emperor's banquet. I prefer eating food in the place it comes from, not watered-down or nostalgic imitations elsewhere.
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I loved the cheap street eats in southeast Asia, but sometimes there's a reason why cheap food is cheap:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Taiwan_food_scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutter_oil
Yeah, but Taiwan isn't Southeast Asia. And while it's true that in some cases there is a compromise on regulations and quality, the bigger reason that cheap food in certain parts of the world is cheap is because you're visiting as a foreigner, not living life there as a typical local earning a typical local salary. When I was living and working in Asia - as a local, not an expat - with what I was earning, I certainly didn't always think the local food was incredibly cheap. ;)
At any rate, street-side/budget eating all depends on your level of health and cultural awareness, adventurousness, and whether you develop a cast-iron stomach.
Well said!
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This is part of my plan (slow travel), but I wouldn't want to do it permanently, and I'd want to be able to afford to come home to visit on occasion, as well as travel to other neighboring places.
I could retire with 500k and spend the first 5-10 years spending VERY little in foreign places while my stash continued to grow on it's own, but I wouldn't want to retire on 100k and feel stuck in a cheap foreign place because that's all I could afford to do.
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This is part of my plan (slow travel), but I wouldn't want to do it permanently, and I'd want to be able to afford to come home to visit on occasion, as well as travel to other neighboring places.
I could retire with 500k and spend the first 5-10 years spending VERY little in foreign places while my stash continued to grow on it's own, but I wouldn't want to retire on 100k and feel stuck in a cheap foreign place because that's all I could afford to do.
Yeah, I don't think retiring on $100K is a good idea either. My plan is to retire in SE Asian on ~$500K, which should give me a very good lifestyle overseas, and a modest one in the US.
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This thread is so intriguing, because I'll have about $150k in liquid assets by the end of this year. I joke with spouse about expating and retiring, but they don't see to think it's a very funny joke!
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This is part of my plan (slow travel), but I wouldn't want to do it permanently, and I'd want to be able to afford to come home to visit on occasion, as well as travel to other neighboring places.
I could retire with 500k and spend the first 5-10 years spending VERY little in foreign places while my stash continued to grow on it's own, but I wouldn't want to retire on 100k and feel stuck in a cheap foreign place because that's all I could afford to do.
Yeah, I don't think retiring on $100K is a good idea either. My plan is to retire in SE Asian on ~$500K, which should give me a very good lifestyle overseas, and a modest one in the US.
THIS ^^. My number is $650k. Looking at the Philippines, but I'm open to anywhere as long as it's in my budget.
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This is part of my plan (slow travel), but I wouldn't want to do it permanently, and I'd want to be able to afford to come home to visit on occasion, as well as travel to other neighboring places.
I could retire with 500k and spend the first 5-10 years spending VERY little in foreign places while my stash continued to grow on it's own, but I wouldn't want to retire on 100k and feel stuck in a cheap foreign place because that's all I could afford to do.
Yeah, I don't think retiring on $100K is a good idea either. My plan is to retire in SE Asian on ~$500K, which should give me a very good lifestyle overseas, and a modest one in the US.
THIS ^^. My number is $650k. Looking at the Philippines, but I'm open to anywhere as long as it's in my budget.
The Philippines is definitely the budget option! Malaysia is currently #1 on my list, as it's basically the most advanced country in SE Asia (after Singapore), while still being very affordable (particularly outside of the biggest cities). The healthcare is also some of the best in the world, for extremely cheap.
But the Philippines definitely could be a better option. it's even cheaper, and residency comes easier than Malaysia.
One thing I'm thinking seriously about is ultimately getting a citizenship in one of these countries and rescinding my US one. Of course that's a ways down the road, but as the US both declines and stretches its arms out around the world to grab your money, holding a US citizenship becomes more and more of a negative.
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While SE Asia must undoubtedly be cheaper, I think it's underrated how cheap South Korea and Japan can be if you know what you're doing and don't live in the very largest cities. I intend to FIRE somewhere like Fukuoka, Japan -- metro area with 5.6 million people, excellent food and public transportation, and conveniently located 2-bedroom apartments for like $450 a month.
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While SE Asia must undoubtedly be cheaper, I think it's underrated how cheap South Korea and Japan can be if you know what you're doing and don't live in the very largest cities. I intend to FIRE somewhere like Fukuoka, Japan -- metro area with 5.6 million people, excellent food and public transportation, and conveniently located 2-bedroom apartments for like $450 a month.
My question is how you *can* retire in Japan? I definitely agree the countryside is cheap, but Japan doesn't pass out permanent residencies the way SE Asia does. Unless you've had a stable job teaching English or something, they're not going to let you stay.
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I'm originally from Vietnam so I have a natural place to return to where the COL is low and I know the language and like the culture.
It's nice to know that I could retire now on my present stash there but it's not something I seriously consider yet. I'd want to have a large enough stash to live comfortably in Australia before I pull the plug. Living in a low COL area will just help it grow at a fast pace even after retirement.
It's all about giving myself options and freedom because you never know what life will throw at you.
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While SE Asia must undoubtedly be cheaper, I think it's underrated how cheap South Korea and Japan can be if you know what you're doing and don't live in the very largest cities. I intend to FIRE somewhere like Fukuoka, Japan -- metro area with 5.6 million people, excellent food and public transportation, and conveniently located 2-bedroom apartments for like $450 a month.
My question is how you *can* retire in Japan? I definitely agree the countryside is cheap, but Japan doesn't pass out permanent residencies the way SE Asia does. Unless you've had a stable job teaching English or something, they're not going to let you stay.
You've caused me to notice I take this for granted because I have a Japanese husband. It would take a bit more doing if you don't have access to a Japanese spouse.
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I think a lot of the discussion here frames retirement in a traditional sense (after 60, declining health), but some of the variables change dramatically for mustachians (younger at retirement, flexible, frugal). Some in-between options make a lot more sense for us.
Such as:
1. Funky snowbird: Live somewhere warm, cheap, and awesome part of the year. Keep a tiny cheap home back in your country of origin. Or rent it out during the school year or vacation high season, then come home when it's empty. This keeps people in touch with family and maybe maintains health insurance (in Canada, for example).
2. Two retirements: Live SWC&A (or slow-travel) during your 30s and 40s. Invest the difference between your costs and your earnings to cover higher expenses later in life. Return to home country as parents age or your own health care needs increase.
3. Something in between 1 and 2: retire and rent somewhere else, keep something cheap back home (maybe renting it out), be willing to leave everything behind if somewhere-else falls apart.
4. Use your plentiful and flexible free time to maximize travel hacks to get back home cheap (e.g., travelling off-peak, or getting from Bangkok to Vegas by finding a cheap ticket Singapore-LA and riding the bus at either end).
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While SE Asia must undoubtedly be cheaper, I think it's underrated how cheap South Korea and Japan can be if you know what you're doing and don't live in the very largest cities. I intend to FIRE somewhere like Fukuoka, Japan -- metro area with 5.6 million people, excellent food and public transportation, and conveniently located 2-bedroom apartments for like $450 a month.
My question is how you *can* retire in Japan? I definitely agree the countryside is cheap, but Japan doesn't pass out permanent residencies the way SE Asia does. Unless you've had a stable job teaching English or something, they're not going to let you stay.
You've caused me to notice I take this for granted because I have a Japanese husband. It would take a bit more doing if you don't have access to a Japanese spouse.
Yeah, the only way I decided I could make it work was if I either arrived and held a job for quite some time (which doesn't exactly mean retirement to me), or else if I found a Japanese spouse. I love Japan - it's probably one of the top countries in world for me. But I'll most likely be getting a tourist visa and visiting from SE Asia after I FIRE.
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This is part of my plan (slow travel), but I wouldn't want to do it permanently, and I'd want to be able to afford to come home to visit on occasion, as well as travel to other neighboring places.
I could retire with 500k and spend the first 5-10 years spending VERY little in foreign places while my stash continued to grow on it's own, but I wouldn't want to retire on 100k and feel stuck in a cheap foreign place because that's all I could afford to do.
Yeah, I don't think retiring on $100K is a good idea either. My plan is to retire in SE Asian on ~$500K, which should give me a very good lifestyle overseas, and a modest one in the US.
THIS ^^. My number is $650k. Looking at the Philippines, but I'm open to anywhere as long as it's in my budget.
The Philippines is definitely the budget option! Malaysia is currently #1 on my list, as it's basically the most advanced country in SE Asia (after Singapore), while still being very affordable (particularly outside of the biggest cities). The healthcare is also some of the best in the world, for extremely cheap.
But the Philippines definitely could be a better option. it's even cheaper, and residency comes easier than Malaysia.
One thing I'm thinking seriously about is ultimately getting a citizenship in one of these countries and rescinding my US one. Of course that's a ways down the road, but as the US both declines and stretches its arms out around the world to grab your money, holding a US citizenship becomes more and more of a negative.
Haven't this other spots in Asia but I got ten more years to figure it out ;)
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Parts of southern Europe are cheaper than elsewhere, but not at SE Asia levels I believe. I keep getting this emails from International Living about forgotten parts of Italy and Spain that look wonderful, and are off the beaten path for North Americans anyway, like Lecce in Italy, or Malta. I don't think its too hard to get a one year "long stay" visa with proof of assets in some of these countries.
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This thread is so intriguing, because I'll have about $150k in liquid assets by the end of this year. I joke with spouse about expating and retiring, but they don't see to think it's a very funny joke!
I took a trip to India last year; my nothing-fancy-but-livable hotel in Delhi was £8/night, with wifi and breakfast included. I had similar "whoah, I could retire *now* if I lived over there" thoughts. Would probably be a miserable life away from family and friends, but an eye-opener all the same. I could imagine taking extended 3-6 month holidays in low cost locations once I'm FI as a source of flexibility in economic downturns; going all-in and retiring on too little to a low cost location permanently would be painful, but a few months of cheap living before coming back home would be fine, I think, and I'm sure I'd appreciate the luxury of living in a wealthy country again all the more for the experience.
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Interesting article on the challenges of transferring money to another country.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2014/01/16/263105199/ln-a-global-economy-whys-it-so-expensive-to-transfer-my-money
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Parts of southern Europe are cheaper than elsewhere, but not at SE Asia levels I believe. I keep getting this emails from International Living about forgotten parts of Italy and Spain that look wonderful, and are off the beaten path for North Americans anyway, like Lecce in Italy, or Malta. I don't think its too hard to get a one year "long stay" visa with proof of assets in some of these countries.
I've been to Malta. It is cheap by European standards, but not dirt cheap like some parts of SE Asia. Probably not any cheaper than rural Alabama or Texas. A better climate, though and cheap access to lot of other interesting places.
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Very interesting as that could be the cost of living anywhere in the EU (if you converted the numbers to Euros) for example this are the rough costs of living in Munich Germany, one of the most expensive ares in Germany.
Accommodation (Basic) €800
Electricity €40
Food 140 -250
Internet / phone €50
Transport (public) €50
Medical insurance ???
You can live comfortably in Munich on 1500€ a month as a single person.
Maybe as everyone is young but what about health insurance? I've had 4 knee operations and facing an operation for prostate cancer now
Yes, this seemed a little on the high side to me if we're talking about a basic COL. A really great resource for seeing and comparing cost of living is Numbeo, though admittedly it's crowdsourced so the info should all be double checked. Here, as an example, are the numbers for a couple SEA cities:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country=Vietnam&city=Hanoi&displayCurrency=USD
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country=Philippines&city=Manila&displayCurrency=USD
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country=Thailand&city=Bangkok&displayCurrency=USD
Those are capital/huge cities, and the prices start to drop pretty quickly when you get into second cities/large towns, and if you're willing to live outside the city center:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country=Vietnam&city=Hoi+An&displayCurrency=USD
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country=Philippines&city=San+Fernando&displayCurrency=USD
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country=Thailand&city=Phuket&displayCurrency=USD
All of that said, I might be looking for the kind of amenities in SEA that would bring me close to Lukim's accommodation budget. We'd probably want a 3 bedroom apartment even though we could get away with one, and we'd be looking for modern comfort/full amenities in that apartment.
Numbeo is also a fun tool to compare your own city with a place, to see what kind of spending power you would have there.
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"One could retire in Missouri on 400 a month with a 40k paid off house. So what is that, 150k net savings? Water 50, heat 80, tax/ins 60, food 75, phone 10, misc 100"
I think this is a very bad idea because other expenses do & will come up that will cost more then 100/month or force you to use your savings.
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One thing I'm thinking seriously about is ultimately getting a citizenship in one of these countries and rescinding my US one. Of course that's a ways down the road, but as the US both declines and stretches its arms out around the world to grab your money, holding a US citizenship becomes more and more of a negative.
The only country is SEA that is relatively easy to get citizenship is Singapore. The rest, not so much. E.g. having an Indonesian spouse only gives you the right to live in Indonesia, doesn't give you right to live there or buy property, same with Thailand.
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I have some friends, he's British and she's Mexican and they alternate between Mexico and Spain and they said Mexico is very cheap especially on the services side. You can hire a full time house keeper for like $2 an hour and such. Housing is, depending on where you come from, pretty cheap. If you're in the right areas full of English speaking expats (usually Canadian or American).
Problem is most expats head home for the summer months.
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In my earlier post I said my rough monthly figures for a single person or couple to live a basic life in South East Asia (excluding Singapore) are;
Accommodation (Basic) $800
Electricity $100
Food $300
Internet / phone $50
Transport (taxis) $50
Medical insurance $100.
The following are the actual costs for me living in South East Asia (basically as a single person)
Accommodation US$3600 (that is what the apartment across the corridor from me rents for per month)
Electricity / building charges US$500
Internet / phone / TV US$130
Staff US$450 (everyone has at least a part time maid - you will be regarded as strange if you do not employ at least one person)
Food US$300
Fuel (for small car) US$120
Medical insurance US$300
Tennis / Gym membership US$75
Entertainment / Meals and drinks out US$400
Travel (average per month) US$800
That comes out at US$6,675 per month. I accept half of that is the accommodation cost (I own the apartment). You could live somewhere for US$1200 per month so that reduces the monthly spend to $4,275.
I do not live a champagne lifestyle - but I am not wanting to live poor either.
Many of my local friends have much more affluent lifestyles than I do (much more).
I just think it is unrealistic you can live a pleasant, enjoyable life in retirement in S E Asia on a nest egg of US$100k.
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Lukim,
I am guessing HK?
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No, Jakarta.
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It's gone up! (I was there 2002-2006, paid about 25,000 US a year for a house in Permata Hijau)
But with the traffic these days - yep, would need to be a central apartment
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$25,000 per year for a house in Permata Hijau 10 years ago sounds right. That would now probably be about $30,000 or $2,500 per month.
A single person or couple can still find somewhere reasonable to live for $1200 per month, but they are now going to get anything decent for less than that within reasonably livable area (you can probably get something for less today in the areas that are flooded!!).
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"One could retire in Missouri on 400 a month with a 40k paid off house. So what is that, 150k net savings? Water 50, heat 80, tax/ins 60, food 75, phone 10, misc 100"
I think this is a very bad idea because other expenses do & will come up that will cost more then 100/month or force you to use your savings.
I believe Bob W's basic point was that you can retire for much less than $600k inside the USA if you go to one of the many low-cost areas. If you follow his example and use the 4% SWR you'd actually have a $30k cushion to handle those 'other expenses' that you were referring to.
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In my earlier post I said my rough monthly figures for a single person or couple to live a basic life in South East Asia (excluding Singapore) are;
Accommodation (Basic) $800
Electricity $100
Food $300
Internet / phone $50
Transport (taxis) $50
Medical insurance $100.
Your food estimate seems really expensive. I spend $100/month on food here in the US. Isn't SE Asian food supposed to be cheaper?
Also, how is cycling in SE Asia? I cycle everywhere here in Silicon Valley, but of course it's not as warm. Do you eventually just get used to it? Here in the US cycling is a major saver for me, allowing me to not own a car.
Overall though, your expenses seem really high. But that's because I'd be looking for a studio. I live in 250 square feet here in the US and see no need for more living elsewhere.
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I just think it is unrealistic you can live a pleasant, enjoyable life in retirement in S E Asia on a nest egg of US$100k.
I agree that a US$100k nest egg is really pushing it, even for a low-cost area like SE Asia. Triple that amount, though, and I think I can have a pretty decent life in some of the countries there.
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You don't have to spend that much even in downtown Bangkok.
Decent apartment $300-500/mo (e.g. http://www.thaiapartment.com/apartment/the-fifth-residence-4291 or http://www.thaiapartment.com/apartment/108-apartment-4962)
Food certainly could be done for $100-$150/mo including restaurants.
ETA: I'd say 300k portfolio would do just fine in Bangkok.
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I just think it is unrealistic you can live a pleasant, enjoyable life in retirement in S E Asia on a nest egg of US$100k.
I agree that a US$100k nest egg is really pushing it, even for a low-cost area like SE Asia. Triple that amount, though, and I think I can have a pretty decent life in some of the countries there.
One question I do have is whether price inflation in SE Asia should be a concern over the long term? A lot of these countries are developing relatively quickly compared to the US, and wages of locals could increase faster than a US-based portfolio's return + a safe withdrawal rate can keep up, if one does not have a regular job.
Just wondering if I'm being paranoid, or if I would need to think seriously about increasing my Asian investments asset allocation while living outside of the US.
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One question I do have is whether price inflation in SE Asia should be a concern over the long term? A lot of these countries are developing relatively quickly compared to the US, and wages of locals could increase faster than a US-based portfolio's return + a safe withdrawal rate can keep up, if one does not have a regular job.
I've question this myself. Around here many of us are planning retirements that could easily last through four decades. Look at countries like India and Brazil and compare where they are now to where they were in 1975 - certainly other countries in SE Asia will have similar increases in their COL over the net 3-4 decades.
I suppose the strategy could be to move to a new country if/when it became too expensive.
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I was born in Ecuador to two Americans living abroad. Once we inquired about our status there, and they said, "Well, we consider you to be Ecuadorian." But of course the U.S. government doesn't. It was my understanding that the US doesn't allow dual citizenship unless there is a reciprocal agreement, although I wonder what incentive there is to declare citizenship in the overseas country where you retire.
Ecuador is often listed on one of the top retirement places in the world for American ex-pats. But these lists are geared towards people who want to live a non-Mustachian life in retirement. My MIL and her husband looked into retiring in Ecuador, but I think it was going to be too much culture shock for them.
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although I wonder what incentive there is to declare citizenship in the overseas country where you retire.
Being treated as an equal in the eyes of the government in the place you plan to live for the rest of your life? Not to mention freedom from US tax and foreign banking reporting obligations.
I just wish I didn't have myself tied to the US through my 401(k) or IRA's. Unfortunately they're the only way to avoid the incredibly high tax bill on a single taxpayer with no deductions.
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In my earlier post I said my rough monthly figures for a single person or couple to live a basic life in South East Asia (excluding Singapore) are;
Accommodation (Basic) $800
Electricity $100
Food $300
Internet / phone $50
Transport (taxis) $50
Medical insurance $100.
The following are the actual costs for me living in South East Asia (basically as a single person)
Accommodation US$3600 (that is what the apartment across the corridor from me rents for per month)
Electricity / building charges US$500
Internet / phone / TV US$130
Staff US$450 (everyone has at least a part time maid - you will be regarded as strange if you do not employ at least one person)
Food US$300
Fuel (for small car) US$120
Medical insurance US$300
Tennis / Gym membership US$75
Entertainment / Meals and drinks out US$400
Travel (average per month) US$800
That comes out at US$6,675 per month. I accept half of that is the accommodation cost (I own the apartment). You could live somewhere for US$1200 per month so that reduces the monthly spend to $4,275.
I do not live a champagne lifestyle - but I am not wanting to live poor either.
Many of my local friends have much more affluent lifestyles than I do (much more).
I just think it is unrealistic you can live a pleasant, enjoyable life in retirement in S E Asia on a nest egg of US$100k.
What??? I live a pretty nice life in super expensive Switzerland for less than that. Plus unlike in Jakarta I get great public transport and virtually crime free environment...
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One question I do have is whether price inflation in SE Asia should be a concern over the long term? A lot of these countries are developing relatively quickly compared to the US, and wages of locals could increase faster than a US-based portfolio's return + a safe withdrawal rate can keep up, if one does not have a regular job.
Just wondering if I'm being paranoid, or if I would need to think seriously about increasing my Asian investments asset allocation while living outside of the US.
I'm not sure how the inflation rate compares to the US. I feel like the cost of living has been going up faster than the local wages. I also think the prices go up quicker in city areas. From my observations, inflation hasn't been that crazy for the past decade or two, but I have no idea what it will be like in upcoming decades.
It would be wise to have a buffer. And when calculating costs, remember to account for things like travel/health insurance, vaccinations, flights, visas and visa runs.
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although I wonder what incentive there is to declare citizenship in the overseas country where you retire.
Being treated as an equal in the eyes of the government in the place you plan to live for the rest of your life? Not to mention freedom from US tax and foreign banking reporting obligations.
I just wish I didn't have myself tied to the US through my 401(k) or IRA's. Unfortunately they're the only way to avoid the incredibly high tax bill on a single taxpayer with no deductions.
Fair enough on the former, but wouldn't you only receive the latter if you renounced your US citizenship entirely? I am no expert on these things. I just couldn't imagine doing that, unless it was to a country that is politically as stable as the US - say many European countries, and those tend to be just as if not more expensive than the States. What if I wanted to return? What if all hell broke loose? I know some people who moved to Ukraine a few years ago....
I like that I have a tangible connection (i.e. an Ecuadorian birth certificate) to another country and would probably opt to retire in Ecuador some day if I was looking for a LCOL area, but I would probably just position myself as a long term visitor who happened to be born there.
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although I wonder what incentive there is to declare citizenship in the overseas country where you retire.
Being treated as an equal in the eyes of the government in the place you plan to live for the rest of your life? Not to mention freedom from US tax and foreign banking reporting obligations.
I just wish I didn't have myself tied to the US through my 401(k) or IRA's. Unfortunately they're the only way to avoid the incredibly high tax bill on a single taxpayer with no deductions.
Fair enough on the former, but wouldn't you only receive the latter if you renounced your US citizenship entirely? I am no expert on these things. I just couldn't imagine doing that, unless it was to a country that is politically as stable as the US - say many European countries, and those tend to be just as if not more expensive than the States. What if I wanted to return? What if all hell broke loose? I know some people who moved to Ukraine a few years ago....
I like that I have a tangible connection (i.e. an Ecuadorian birth certificate) to another country and would probably opt to retire in Ecuador some day if I was looking for a LCOL area, but I would probably just position myself as a long term visitor who happened to be born there.
I don't want to make this thread too political. Suffice to say that many (including myself) don't believe the US will be stable forever. Being the richest country in the world means that you can get away with offering less benefits for your taxes and more draconian laws (surveillance, etc.). If a smaller country is going to attract people it's going to need to offer a better value proposition.
Also, living in a foreign country that's actually unstable (not that I plan to do so) the last thing I'd want to have on hand is a US passport. It attracts too much attention, which can lead to some pretty serious consequences.
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although I wonder what incentive there is to declare citizenship in the overseas country where you retire.
Being treated as an equal in the eyes of the government in the place you plan to live for the rest of your life? Not to mention freedom from US tax and foreign banking reporting obligations.
I just wish I didn't have myself tied to the US through my 401(k) or IRA's. Unfortunately they're the only way to avoid the incredibly high tax bill on a single taxpayer with no deductions.
Fair enough on the former, but wouldn't you only receive the latter if you renounced your US citizenship entirely? I am no expert on these things. I just couldn't imagine doing that, unless it was to a country that is politically as stable as the US - say many European countries, and those tend to be just as if not more expensive than the States. What if I wanted to return? What if all hell broke loose? I know some people who moved to Ukraine a few years ago....
I like that I have a tangible connection (i.e. an Ecuadorian birth certificate) to another country and would probably opt to retire in Ecuador some day if I was looking for a LCOL area, but I would probably just position myself as a long term visitor who happened to be born there.
I don't want to make this thread too political. Suffice to say that many (including myself) don't believe the US will be stable forever. Being the richest country in the world means that you can get away with offering less benefits for your taxes and more draconian laws (surveillance, etc.). If a smaller country is going to attract people it's going to need to offer a better value proposition.
Also, living in a foreign country that's actually unstable (not that I plan to do so) the last thing I'd want to have on hand is a US passport. It attracts too much attention, which can lead to some pretty serious consequences.
Hate to say this with or without passport if your skin color does not blend in the country you adopt you will be noticed.
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Hate to say this with or without passport if your skin color does not blend in the country you adopt you will be noticed.
That's why I favor living in a multicultural country. Southeast Asian countries are high on the list (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/18/the-most-and-least-culturally-diverse-countries-in-the-world/). Note that Europe is markedly absent.
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Hate to say this with or without passport if your skin color does not blend in the country you adopt you will be noticed.
That's why I favor living in a multicultural country. Southeast Asian countries are high on the list (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/18/the-most-and-least-culturally-diverse-countries-in-the-world/). Note that Europe is markedly absent.
Don't believe everything what's written... A white guy in Thailand or Malaysia will be a lot more visible than an Asian guy in Western Europe.
Honestly the map you cited is a total nonsense on so many different levels...
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Hate to say this with or without passport if your skin color does not blend in the country you adopt you will be noticed.
That's why I favor living in a multicultural country. Southeast Asian countries are high on the list (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/18/the-most-and-least-culturally-diverse-countries-in-the-world/). Note that Europe is markedly absent.
Europe isn't "absent" - Spain's right in the middle on this author's 'cultural diversity scale', with several other countries being a bit above (France, Switzerland, Netherlands, & many of the Baltics). Also, having high levels of 'cultural diversity' can also mean very low amounts of cultural exchange. That's how you get and maintain high diversity - lots of different groups that don't mix. See S. Africa, DR Congo, Kenya, etc.
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That's why I favor living in a multicultural country. Southeast Asian countries are high on the list (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/18/the-most-and-least-culturally-diverse-countries-in-the-world/). Note that Europe is markedly absent.
I am Asian and my boyfriend is Caucasian. We have been to many SE Asian countries. Trust me, when I go out without him, people barely notice me, I just blend in. Different story if he goes out with me, or by himself.
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I was born in Ecuador to two Americans living abroad. Once we inquired about our status there, and they said, "Well, we consider you to be Ecuadorian." But of course the U.S. government doesn't. It was my understanding that the US doesn't allow dual citizenship unless there is a reciprocal agreement, although I wonder what incentive there is to declare citizenship in the overseas country where you retire.
Ecuador is often listed on one of the top retirement places in the world for American ex-pats. But these lists are geared towards people who want to live a non-Mustachian life in retirement. My MIL and her husband looked into retiring in Ecuador, but I think it was going to be too much culture shock for them.
The US Constitution has been interpreted to prevent your US citizenship from being taken away unless you engaged in conduct with an intention of abandoning citizenship (or somesuch). Furthermore:
"In 1990, the Bureau of Consular Affairs adopted an administrative presumption in determining whether or not a U.S. citizen has performed a potentially expatriating act with the intention of relinquishing U.S. nationality in three classes of loss of citizenship cases. Specifically, when a U.S. citizen obtains naturalization in a foreign state, subscribes to routine declarations of allegiance to a foreign state, or accepts non-policy level employment with a foreign state, the intent to retain U.S. nationality will be presumed. U.S. citizens who naturalize in a foreign country; take a routine oath of allegiance; or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government need not, therefore, submit evidence of their intent to retain U.S. nationality."
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This seems to all come down to what type of lifestyle do you want in retirement?
Personally, I would like a lifestyle as comfortable as pre retirement - otherwise, what is the point? By comfortable, I do not mean it has to be as expensive or costly, but I don't want to be living an uncomfortable life.
A few points to remember, to live in most S E Asian countries as a foreigner you need either to have a job or have a "retirement" visa which requires proof of funds. Alternatively, you can do the constant 30 day or 60 day tourist visa - but that involves inconvenience and the cost of flying in and out of the country every 30 or 60 days. Also, if you don't have a residence visa, you usually cannot get a long term lease which means you are stuck with more expensive monthly rentals.
On housing, yes, you could find a studio apartment (called a kost in Indonesian) in Jakarta for about US$250 per month. I could live in it for a month or 2 but it would not be somewhere I would want to retire to.
Forget riding a bike or walking most places (unless you have a death wish). The flip side is there are lots of taxis and they are cheap.
You could find somewhere to live in an outer suburb or in a regional city - you would probably be one of the few foreigners and everyone would be looking at you 24 hours a day. It would be fun for a while but I think it would wear thin after a few months.
I am actually a strong advocate of retiring to S E Asia - there are many, many advantages. My argument is, however, don't expect to be able to do it on US$100k. I think if you tried it on anything less than US$1.5m you may come up short (unless you are planning on working rather than retiring).
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Forget riding a bike or walking most places (unless you have a death wish). The flip side is there are lots of taxis and they are cheap.
People die when they walk or ride a bike in most places there? That's terrible!
I am actually a strong advocate of retiring to S E Asia - there are many, many advantages. My argument is, however, don't expect to be able to do it on US$100k. I think if you tried it on anything less than US$1.5m you may come up short (unless you are planning on working rather than retiring).
Why would I need more money to retire in a lower COL country? That doesn't make any sense to me. My very luxurious life needs about 900k in assets to support it for eternity.
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Timmy - you need more money as there is no social safety net in most (all) of these countries.
There is no free medical. If you have children, you have no choice but to send them to private schools. There is no pension if you run out of money.
You need to be able to fully support yourself until the day you die (that could be a long time).
Inflation in developing countries runs at 6% to 10%. Assume you keep your assets invested in USD and you manage to get a long term investment return of 5%, you are loosing capital from day one. That also assumes the USD stays at is current high level and does not fall back to where it was 3 years ago.
As I said, I am an advocate of retiring in S E Asia but don't expect it to be cheap, particularly over the long term.
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People die when they walk or ride a bike in most places there? That's terrible!
I just checked with a couple co-workers from various countries in SE Asia and they have confirmed that bicycling in SE Asia is at least safer than driving - drivers generally leave you room and keep to themselves. They sent me a couple videos of driving in southeast Asia, and I'm sticking to my bicycle.
Inflation in developing countries runs at 6% to 10%. Assume you keep your assets invested in USD and you manage to get a long term investment return of 5%, you are loosing capital from day one. That also assumes the USD stays at is current high level and does not fall back to where it was 3 years ago.
Very interesting, thanks! I guess I'll do some more research.
If I can live off $10K/year but my assets supply $20K/year, my thought is that this would surpass inflation. But of course this is making a ton of assumptions.
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Timmy - you need more money as there is no social safety net in most (all) of these countries.
There is no free medical. If you have children, you have no choice but to send them to private schools. There is no pension if you run out of money.
You need to be able to fully support yourself until the day you die (that could be a long time).
Inflation in developing countries runs at 6% to 10%. Assume you keep your assets invested in USD and you manage to get a long term investment return of 5%, you are loosing capital from day one. That also assumes the USD stays at is current high level and does not fall back to where it was 3 years ago.
As I said, I am an advocate of retiring in S E Asia but don't expect it to be cheap, particularly over the long term.
My planning doesn't not include any social safety nets in the plan and I have no children. Also, who gets free medical?
If I retire when I can sustain my current lifestyle (lavish) in the US indefinitely, and I choose to live in a low COL area abroad, the first years of retirement will be spent stocking massive amounts of money away. I'll take my chances...
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Inflation in developing countries runs at 6% to 10%. Assume you keep your assets invested in USD and you manage to get a long term investment return of 5%, you are loosing capital from day one. That also assumes the USD stays at is current high level and does not fall back to where it was 3 years ago.
As I said, I am an advocate of retiring in S E Asia but don't expect it to be cheap, particularly over the long term.
If inflation is in developing country currency is higher than USD inflation and your assets are in USD, that means stuff in developing country gets cheaper for you. If your worry is just that inflation everywhere will outpace investment returns, that doesn't have anything to do with where you are located.
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Inflation in developing countries runs at 6% to 10%. Assume you keep your assets invested in USD and you manage to get a long term investment return of 5%, you are loosing capital from day one. That also assumes the USD stays at is current high level and does not fall back to where it was 3 years ago.
As I said, I am an advocate of retiring in S E Asia but don't expect it to be cheap, particularly over the long term.
If inflation is in developing country currency is higher than USD inflation and your assets are in USD, that means stuff in developing country gets cheaper for you. If your worry is just that inflation everywhere will outpace investment returns, that doesn't have anything to do with where you are located.
This is only true if exchange rate from USD to the target currency tracks inflation, which it is not guaranteed to do. Additionally, there can be higher inflation in certain sectors of the economy that especially affect expats, such as the rent for apartments built to international standards (if that's what you want to live in).
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although I wonder what incentive there is to declare citizenship in the overseas country where you retire.
Being treated as an equal in the eyes of the government in the place you plan to live for the rest of your life? Not to mention freedom from US tax and foreign banking reporting obligations.
I just wish I didn't have myself tied to the US through my 401(k) or IRA's. Unfortunately they're the only way to avoid the incredibly high tax bill on a single taxpayer with no deductions.
The US expat tax burden is way overhyped. I also am a US citizen who plans on retiring overseas and am doing some research. Consider:
If you are a US expat living overseas you are exempt from taxes on the first $100k or so of your overseas income: http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Earned-Income-Exclusion
US taxes on US based income is negligible for someone living a mustachian lifestyle, especially if you are post FIRE and living off of investment income. See the section titled "Live Well for Less" in this article: http://www.gocurrycracker.com/never-pay-taxes-again/
You can get your money from the US to your country of destination with no conversion fees using a Schwab or Fidelity checking account: http://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/banking_lending/checking_account
Keeping your retirement accounts in dollars is a huge advantage compared to many other developing country currencies where inflation is a major issue that will slowly eat away at your stash.
I'm also not thrilled about the reporting requirements for overseas bank accounts, but I also don't plan on cheating on my taxes, so I'll do it. The pros of keeping my money invested in the US in dollars vastly outweigh the cons of the invasion of privacy.
Whether or not you feel the US economy will "go downhill" is just another form of trying to time the market. Sure it will someday, but it may be long after you're dead and buried. The US stock market has returned on average 10% a year since it's existence. If you want to bet against that it's up to you, but it's the wrong call.
IMO, you should be more worried with the tax authorities of the country where you're going (remember you gotta pay taxes there too). Some places have the right to tax all of your accounts, including your US based 401k's and such that aren't kept in the country.
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By virtue of being a US citizen, you cannot open savings or brokerage accounts at many foreign banks, and even if you can open them, you may be prohibited (not by law, but by the insititution's policies) from investing in many securities. If you have a permanent address in the US, you may be able to justify calling yourself a US resident for the purposes of US savings and brokerage accounts, but it's not clear to me that this is actually correct. So because you are a US citizen abroad, you cannot hold most foreign accounts and you arguably cannot hold any US accounts (especially if you don't have a US permanent address). Even if you find a foreign brokerage account willing to take you as a customer, will they follow all the rules set out by the IRS for such funds, or give you any kind of US reporting forms come tax season?
Furthermore, a US citizen's child born abroad, which child never sets foot in the US and perhaps doesn't know English, is a US citizen subject to worldwide taxation and reporting requirements for the rest of her life (and the same financial institution issues I described above, if she's honest). She will also be taxed by the US on any tax-preferred accounts she sets up in her home country (401(k) or IRA equivalents). If she wants to renounce her US citizenship, she has to pay $2,300 (recently quadrupled). If she doesn't, and goes on to have a successful career in a low tax jurisdiction, she'll have to pay the IRS at US marginal rates above the foreign earned income exclusion....for what benefit, exactly? Ability to be drafted into US armed services? Voting in presidential elections (because there is no representation of expats other than the President)?
Maybe this is indeed all overblown, but when you're actually living it, it's relatively shitty. These limitations have only gotten worse in recent years. I fear what they'll become over the course of a 60-year retirement.
An expat in Canada explained this better than I could:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2014/08/15/dear-mr-president-why-im-leaving-america/
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Maybe this is indeed all overblown, but when you're actually living it, it's relatively shitty. These limitations have only gotten worse in recent years. I fear what they'll become over the course of a 60-year retirement.
As a person who is "actually living it" I can tell you it is NOT shitty at all. I assume it only gets relatively shitty when you have over 100K in foreign income and/or foreign investment accounts. But really it is just best to keep your investment accounts in the US, I just use my parents address in the US, it really isn't that big of a deal.
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Inflation in developing countries runs at 6% to 10%. Assume you keep your assets invested in USD and you manage to get a long term investment return of 5%, you are loosing capital from day one. That also assumes the USD stays at is current high level and does not fall back to where it was 3 years ago.
As I said, I am an advocate of retiring in S E Asia but don't expect it to be cheap, particularly over the long term.
If inflation is in developing country currency is higher than USD inflation and your assets are in USD, that means stuff in developing country gets cheaper for you. If your worry is just that inflation everywhere will outpace investment returns, that doesn't have anything to do with where you are located.
Actually, as a country develops, you can have both higher domestic inflation than the US, and an appreciating currency. Basically a major shift in PPP.
For example, China. Both living costs rising vs the USA, and the RMB strengthening vs the USD.
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I have thought about this many times. Almost any country would be a huge decrease in expenses for me. But I am also very attached with my awesome friends and family in my home country so I will probably consider slow-travelling for some years instead (3-6 months each place) just for the experience :)
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http://www.bbc.com/travel/feature/20150205-how-we-quit-our-jobs-to-travel-the-cubicle-dwellers
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although I wonder what incentive there is to declare citizenship in the overseas country where you retire.
Being treated as an equal in the eyes of the government in the place you plan to live for the rest of your life? Not to mention freedom from US tax and foreign banking reporting obligations.
I just wish I didn't have myself tied to the US through my 401(k) or IRA's. Unfortunately they're the only way to avoid the incredibly high tax bill on a single taxpayer with no deductions.
Fair enough on the former, but wouldn't you only receive the latter if you renounced your US citizenship entirely? I am no expert on these things. I just couldn't imagine doing that, unless it was to a country that is politically as stable as the US - say many European countries, and those tend to be just as if not more expensive than the States. What if I wanted to return? What if all hell broke loose? I know some people who moved to Ukraine a few years ago....
I like that I have a tangible connection (i.e. an Ecuadorian birth certificate) to another country and would probably opt to retire in Ecuador some day if I was looking for a LCOL area, but I would probably just position myself as a long term visitor who happened to be born there.
I don't want to make this thread too political. Suffice to say that many (including myself) don't believe the US will be stable forever. Being the richest country in the world means that you can get away with offering less benefits for your taxes and more draconian laws (surveillance, etc.). If a smaller country is going to attract people it's going to need to offer a better value proposition.
Also, living in a foreign country that's actually unstable (not that I plan to do so) the last thing I'd want to have on hand is a US passport. It attracts too much attention, which can lead to some pretty serious consequences.
Hate to say this with or without passport if your skin color does not blend in the country you adopt you will be noticed.
I find this to be a positive when visiting a foreign country; particularly the rural provinces. I become a instant celebrity the minute getting off the plane or trike......
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I don't really want to live some place else permanently, but I love to travel. I want to be at home in BC each year to enjoy the fine summer weather and get my health care sorted.
I've spent months at a time beach camping in Baja to support my surfing, kiteboarding, sea kayaking, fishing and taco habit! In around 2 years of combined camping down there I've paid less than $50 to camp. Food and beer is cheap. I buy insurance when I head down which is an extra expense and there is gas, but I tend to park for a week at at time and walk/bike from camp.
Since I would keep my place in Canada I'm not saving a ton being in Baja unless I get a short term rental setup, but it's fun and I miss the Canadian winter at low cost.
-- Vik
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Hate to say this with or without passport if your skin color does not blend in the country you adopt you will be noticed.
I find this to be a positive when visiting a foreign country; particularly the rural provinces. I become a instant celebrity the minute getting off the plane or trike......
It's a positive when on holiday, or in the short-term; when living in a place day-to-day, it can get old, particularly since many countries have an unfortunate history of colonialism by western powers. Your appearance brings up a host of associations - some negative, others positive - over which you have no control, and few of which you may feel apply to your life.
Thailand may rank high on diversity lists, but 'diversity' in the North American, new world sense does not exist there. DH was so uncomfortable living in Thailand - morally and socially - that we were unable to make a life there together.
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Same here, spring, summer and fall in the Ontario countryside are wonderful. Winter - well let's just say highs in the -20'sC are not so much fun. But they keep us tough. ;-) And once you get away from the cities, COL is not bad - I paid a lot less for my house, a tow truck is 1/2 the price (I found out the hard way last winter), many services cost less.
I am fine retiring here, but am following the snowbirds thread because I want to find some place that would work for 3-4 months, with a very furry dog. I need to be here for at least 6 months to maintain OHIP. I know people who have second homes in the US, and their stay regulations are very difficult to cope with, since they count in months, not days. This is especially important if you buy instead of renting. I would also like to blend in, if possible. Traveling to New Zealand and Australia was wonderful - we blended in until we said something, then people thought our "exotic Canadian accents" were neat. Actually, anyone thinking our accents were exotic (and I quote) is mind-blowing.
Vikb, is your Baja in California or Mexico? Maps show the upper part is US and the lower part is Mexico. Warm and dry would be nicer than warm and humid, but warm is good either way. Dry is easier for the dog.
I don't really want to live some place else permanently, but I love to travel. I want to be at home in BC each year to enjoy the fine summer weather and get my health care sorted.
Since I would keep my place in Canada I'm not saving a ton being in Baja unless I get a short term rental setup, but it's fun and I miss the Canadian winter at low cost.
-- Vik
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Vikb, is your Baja in California or Mexico? Maps show the upper part is US and the lower part is Mexico. Warm and dry would be nicer than warm and humid, but warm is good either way. Dry is easier for the dog.
Someone might want to tell the US about its new state. ;)
All of Baja belongs to Mexico.
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We're also interested in slow travel / living abroad in various places for several years. Starting in 2017 we'll pack up our three kids and see what happens. Years ago I read Tim Leffle's World's Cheapest Destinations and have been hooked on the idea since.
Though we'll keep our house and come back to Canada once/if the travel bug wears out. I admire the guts some have to FIRE on a 100k or even 600k stache. Maybe I'd feel differently if we hadn't been brainwashed for so many years thinking you need millions. Now I realize we already have more than enough. I try not to dwell on my 'lost years' that I could have been FIREd. As it is, DH is not 100% converted and won't leave until 2017 but I'm going in the next few months.
Thanks for the link to the blog Tieland to Thailand... I just lost several hours in it.
Love this thread.
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My son has lived and worked in S Korea for over 20 years, his wife is from Russia. They can't wait to get back to the US.
My husband has worked all over the world including Indonesia, you are foolish to give up your American citizenship. He has friends who own 1/4 million dollars houses in Thailand, they cannot buy the land underneath. He is constantly being held hostage by having his water turned off and being required to pay money to get it turned back on. At times he can't use the road to get to his home until he pays money.
Also there have been times with civil unrest he can't go back to the country for awhile. Why you think all this is so very romantic and everything is so much better, well folks, wake up and smell the coffee. Lack of infrastructure, social services and other services only available to the very wealthy might be a real surprise. The pollution and the corruption is very bad in so many other countries.
Also in the Phillipines and many Asian countries there are big issues with islamist rebels, there is a lot of insecurity. Think very carefully before you abandon America.
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I find this to be a positive when visiting a foreign country; particularly the rural provinces. I become a instant celebrity the minute getting off the plane or trike......
I find that it gets old after a month or two. I have to tell children "c'est pas un zoo et je suis pas un animal" (this isn't a zoo and I'm not an animal) on a pretty regular basis.
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My son has lived and worked in S Korea for over 20 years, his wife is from Russia. They can't wait to get back to the US.
My husband has worked all over the world including Indonesia, you are foolish to give up your American citizenship. He has friends who own 1/4 million dollars houses in Thailand, they cannot buy the land underneath. He is constantly being held hostage by having his water turned off and being required to pay money to get it turned back on. At times he can't use the road to get to his home until he pays money.
Also there have been times with civil unrest he can't go back to the country for awhile. Why you think all this is so very romantic and everything is so much better, well folks, wake up and smell the coffee. Lack of infrastructure, social services and other services only available to the very wealthy might be a real surprise. The pollution and the corruption is very bad in so many other countries.
Also in the Phillipines and many Asian countries there are big issues with islamist rebels, there is a lot of insecurity. Think very carefully before you abandon America.
OK, so off the bat, I'll acknowledge that there are some countries where corruption, land ownership issues, and safety concerns are real. There's no doubt about that. I'm sorry your son has had this experience and hope they find someplace they feel safe and happy soon.
That said, this is an anecdote, not real data. Equally anecdotally, there are hundreds of thousands of Americans safely and happily enjoying retirement in low cost of living countries, with little or no issues.
Regarding "big issues with islamist rebels," my response here would be that our media vastly overestimates the scope of unrest in most countries. Example: I went to Egypt late last month/early this month. We experienced nothing but calm in our travels, no interference from government officials, no violence or protests, and generous and kind behavior from everyone we met, even when doing the "haggle our way out of foreigner prices" thing. They found an improvised explosive device in the airport the day we left, and there was a bombing killing two locals in Alexandria, where we had been a couple days before.
Are these facts scary, and should they remind one to maintain awareness and caution? Yes, absolutely! However, in speaking to a lot of locals, they likened the fact that this kind of thing appears in our news to stories painting New York City as a crime ridden hellhole where you're likely to be robbed and killed in their own. The media blows some issues completely out of proportion because it gets ratings. In my own city (one of America's safest large cities) there is a bomb squad and improvised explosives are regularly found and destroyed, because people are crazy. That doesn't make local news, let alone international news. The point I'm trying to make is that we should be aware of media reports of unrest, but that it should not prevent us from visiting or even living places.
Further, there are a lot of countries that are stable, relatively low corruption (or at least at acceptable levels when it comes to foreigners), AND inexpensive. Each person has to evaluate their own comfort level and I agree with the idea that trying a place out before moving there is prudent. I just don't think we should write off living in a place because it's challenging, and I think we owe it to ourselves to at least try to disentangle the reality from the media bias of countries that have real problems, but real merit too.
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Heavens he feels safe there, even living 12 miles from the DMC, he doesn't hate it he has enjoyed it but they are tired of the pollution, crowding, and bitter cold winters. Korea is a developed country but he does not want to retire there by any means. American type housing is very expensive, the place before they lived the rent was $3500 a month. They can afford to live there because his rent is paid. But they are just ready to come home, been a long time and now they are going to have a baby.
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Out of curiosity what's wrong with Korean type housing? I assume in such a rich country it is of decent standard.
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He has lived in a lot of Korean housing. The electrical and plumbing left something to be desired. The current is different also. He said the light bills were very high and many they lived in had lots of problems.
Initially he had problems with the language too, he has a lot of Korean friends and they helped him later.
The DOD cut their housing allowance so they are back in an apartment, he said the Koreans all like to live packed in apartments, if you like that I guess its ok. I believe the one they are living in now is newer so pretty nice, I haven't asked him about it. I know there was one that had the washer on the balcony and no dryer and no ac.
There aren't a lot of stand alone houses, they lived in some with mold and all kinds of issues and he really prefers stand alone. His wife on the other hand grew up in Russia in a 1 bedroom apartment I think she said with her sister, mom, and dad so she is used to apartments. Also they live in ones that are almost all Korean families and they are not treated badly just ignored for the most part. I asked him why he didn't buy, I may be in error but I thought he said about $300k would buy a house. We haven't talked about it for awhile so not sure now.
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My son has lived and worked in S Korea for over 20 years, his wife is from Russia. They can't wait to get back to the US.
My husband has worked all over the world including Indonesia, you are foolish to give up your American citizenship. He has friends who own 1/4 million dollars houses in Thailand, they cannot buy the land underneath. He is constantly being held hostage by having his water turned off and being required to pay money to get it turned back on. At times he can't use the road to get to his home until he pays money.
Also there have been times with civil unrest he can't go back to the country for awhile. Why you think all this is so very romantic and everything is so much better, well folks, wake up and smell the coffee. Lack of infrastructure, social services and other services only available to the very wealthy might be a real surprise. The pollution and the corruption is very bad in so many other countries.
Also in the Phillipines and many Asian countries there are big issues with islamist rebels, there is a lot of insecurity. Think very carefully before you abandon America.
OK, so off the bat, I'll acknowledge that there are some countries where corruption, land ownership issues, and safety concerns are real. There's no doubt about that. I'm sorry your son has had this experience and hope they find someplace they feel safe and happy soon.
That said, this is an anecdote, not real data. Equally anecdotally, there are hundreds of thousands of Americans safely and happily enjoying retirement in low cost of living countries, with little or no issues.
Regarding "big issues with islamist rebels," my response here would be that our media vastly overestimates the scope of unrest in most countries. Example: I went to Egypt late last month/early this month. We experienced nothing but calm in our travels, no interference from government officials, no violence or protests, and generous and kind behavior from everyone we met, even when doing the "haggle our way out of foreigner prices" thing. They found an improvised explosive device in the airport the day we left, and there was a bombing killing two locals in Alexandria, where we had been a couple days before.
Are these facts scary, and should they remind one to maintain awareness and caution? Yes, absolutely! However, in speaking to a lot of locals, they likened the fact that this kind of thing appears in our news to stories painting New York City as a crime ridden hellhole where you're likely to be robbed and killed in their own. The media blows some issues completely out of proportion because it gets ratings. In my own city (one of America's safest large cities) there is a bomb squad and improvised explosives are regularly found and destroyed, because people are crazy. That doesn't make local news, let alone international news. The point I'm trying to make is that we should be aware of media reports of unrest, but that it should not prevent us from visiting or even living places.
Further, there are a lot of countries that are stable, relatively low corruption (or at least at acceptable levels when it comes to foreigners), AND inexpensive. Each person has to evaluate their own comfort level and I agree with the idea that trying a place out before moving there is prudent. I just don't think we should write off living in a place because it's challenging, and I think we owe it to ourselves to at least try to disentangle the reality from the media bias of countries that have real problems, but real merit too.
+1000. The developed areas of Luzon (where I live) and Visayas don't have "big issues with islamist rebels." Obviously it's a problem in a very specific region of the Philippines called the ARMM (Autonomous Region of Muslim Mindanao), which doesn't represent the entire country.
Violence and sex sell, which is why the media reports make the problem sound so bad.
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My son has lived and worked in S Korea for over 20 years, his wife is from Russia. They can't wait to get back to the US.
My husband has worked all over the world including Indonesia, you are foolish to give up your American citizenship. He has friends who own 1/4 million dollars houses in Thailand, they cannot buy the land underneath. He is constantly being held hostage by having his water turned off and being required to pay money to get it turned back on. At times he can't use the road to get to his home until he pays money.
Also there have been times with civil unrest he can't go back to the country for awhile. Why you think all this is so very romantic and everything is so much better, well folks, wake up and smell the coffee. Lack of infrastructure, social services and other services only available to the very wealthy might be a real surprise. The pollution and the corruption is very bad in so many other countries.
Also in the Phillipines and many Asian countries there are big issues with islamist rebels, there is a lot of insecurity. Think very carefully before you abandon America.
OK, so off the bat, I'll acknowledge that there are some countries where corruption, land ownership issues, and safety concerns are real. There's no doubt about that. I'm sorry your son has had this experience and hope they find someplace they feel safe and happy soon.
That said, this is an anecdote, not real data. Equally anecdotally, there are hundreds of thousands of Americans safely and happily enjoying retirement in low cost of living countries, with little or no issues.
Regarding "big issues with islamist rebels," my response here would be that our media vastly overestimates the scope of unrest in most countries. Example: I went to Egypt late last month/early this month. We experienced nothing but calm in our travels, no interference from government officials, no violence or protests, and generous and kind behavior from everyone we met, even when doing the "haggle our way out of foreigner prices" thing. They found an improvised explosive device in the airport the day we left, and there was a bombing killing two locals in Alexandria, where we had been a couple days before.
Are these facts scary, and should they remind one to maintain awareness and caution? Yes, absolutely! However, in speaking to a lot of locals, they likened the fact that this kind of thing appears in our news to stories painting New York City as a crime ridden hellhole where you're likely to be robbed and killed in their own. The media blows some issues completely out of proportion because it gets ratings. In my own city (one of America's safest large cities) there is a bomb squad and improvised explosives are regularly found and destroyed, because people are crazy. That doesn't make local news, let alone international news. The point I'm trying to make is that we should be aware of media reports of unrest, but that it should not prevent us from visiting or even living places.
Further, there are a lot of countries that are stable, relatively low corruption (or at least at acceptable levels when it comes to foreigners), AND inexpensive. Each person has to evaluate their own comfort level and I agree with the idea that trying a place out before moving there is prudent. I just don't think we should write off living in a place because it's challenging, and I think we owe it to ourselves to at least try to disentangle the reality from the media bias of countries that have real problems, but real merit too.
+1000. The developed areas of Luzon (where I live) and Visayas don't have "big issues with islamist rebels." Obviously it's a problem in a very specific region of the Philippines called the ARMM (Autonomous Region of Muslim Mindanao), which doesn't represent the entire country.
Violence and sex sell, which is why the media reports make the problem sound so bad.
THIS ^^. I used to believe what the western media told me about foreign countries....until I went to a few. Now I tune them out.
P.S. I'll be in Luzon this weekend. I'm out of the matrix!
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One thing I'm thinking seriously about is ultimately getting a citizenship in one of these countries and rescinding my US one. Of course that's a ways down the road, but as the US both declines and stretches its arms out around the world to grab your money, holding a US citizenship becomes more and more of a negative.
The only country is SEA that is relatively easy to get citizenship is Singapore. The rest, not so much. E.g. having an Indonesian spouse only gives you the right to live in Indonesia, doesn't give you right to live there or buy property, same with Thailand.
things might have change a fair bit in the last year. citizenship might not be so easy to get. pr is ok but u can only buy a flat after staying for 3 years. singaporean here.